Pariprashnena — Q&A Archive

Here is an excerpt from a similar and very interesting letter buried deep in the Secretary Correspondence section of the Vedabase. It was authored by Karandhar dasa and Shyamasundar dasa and read and approved by Srila Prabhupada.

Memo to all GBC Members and Temple Presidents
22 June 1972

"Srila Prabhupada has instructed that we issue a letter of direction to you all regarding the business of travelling road shows, electronic music, and drama presentation. His Divine Grace has instructed that these things should stop. Our process is kirtan, philosophy and prasadam, and nothing more. We do not need to glamorize or spectacularize beyond these simple methods at the risk of deviating from the Disciplic Line of presentation and diminshing the gravity of our message. All the new additions, i.e. electronic musical instrumentation, so-called dramas and plays, songs written by devotees (Prabhupada said that it is prohibited for a Vaisnava to write songs unless he is on the liberated platform; then they area as good as the Vedas), and public relation-promotion departments are unecessary and artifical. Granted, people may be entertained by the incorporation of such things, but they will not take us seriously nor understand the actual import of Krishna Consciousness. The conditioned souls will be attracted by the Holy Name sincerely chanted by pure devotees and the perfect knowledge of Bhagavad-gita and Srimad Bhagavatam as rendered by the Acaryas. There is absolutley no need of anything more. Our presentation should not become a cheap flim flamery to attract mediocre and mundane mentalities."

Also;

Sunday, 5 November, 1972'a0'a0'a0
'a0 Vrindaban 'a0
'a0 Letter to'a0Sudama
"So far the Road Show and this Yoga Village are concerned, these things should be stopped. Simply perform our kirtana. If we divert our attention in this way, the whole thing will gradually deteriorate.

He is going far away. All these things are nonsense inventions. Such inventing spirit will ruin our this movement. People may come to see, some will become devotees, but such devotees will not stay because they are attracted by some show and not by the real thing or spiritual life according to the standard of Lord Caitanya.

Our standard is to have kirtana, start temples. What is this Road Show and Yoga Village? It will be another hippie edition. Gradually the Krishna Consciousness idea will evaporate: another change, another change, every day another change.

Stop all this. Simply have kirtana, nothing else. Dont manufacture ideas. Hoping this meets you in good health."

Yeah, Kirtana is the best, with mridanga. And publishing is brihad-mridanga. I can not stand shows with indian dancing and all the boring theater or pantomime things. I do not know what they attract, certainly not me.

[quote][cite] ccd:[/cite]Yeah, Kirtana is the best, with mridanga. And publishing is brihad-mridanga. I can not stand shows with indian dancing and all the boring theater or pantomime things. I do not know what they attract, certainly not me.[/quote]

Like the Mayapuris?

>Our standard is to have kirtana, start temples. What is this Road Show and Yoga Village? It will be another hippie edition. Gradually the Krishna Consciousness idea will >evaporate: another change, another change, every day another change.

Kirtan and prasadam with some simple philosophy - from my experience of 9 years travelling & preaching its the most potent formula (after ditching our Hare Krsna Mantra Band for 1 year and going back to kirtan)

Srila Prabhupada: That play yesterday, last evening I saw. It was very nice. '85 Now we have got Caitanya-caritamrta and Bhagavatam. If such demonstrations are done very nicely, it will be very much appreciated even by the public.

Gurudasa: Yesterday at the Love Feast they did '93Pralambasura'94 and the guests loved it. Wonderful.

Jayatirtha: They applauded.

Srila Prabhupada: They must love it. It is very nice, very nice. Organize this very nicely '85 and all over the world this will be appreciated. And now we have got so many books. From the book you get subject matter and make a playwright in all languages. It will be very nice.'94 '96

Morning Walk, Los Angeles, 10 February 1975.

"By prasadam, by chanting, by drama, somehow or other bring them. That is our mission. Congregational chanting. Always festival, and we shall spend for that. Immediately arrange. If there is scarcity of money, I shall pay... I came here to see that, not to sit down in a room
peacefully. So there also we shall inform the meeting that we want to propagate this Krishna consciousness movement town to town, village to village, by attracting them with musical demonstration of sankirtana, dramatic play, movie, prasadam. Somehow or other they should come to the temple, to the pandal and congregationally chant Hare Krishna maha-mantra, hear Bhagavad-gita, Bhagavatam. For this purpose, whatever expenditure is required, that you should collect and spend. This is the scheme of Hare Krishna movement." '96Room conversation, Hyderabad, December 10, 1976.

'93Even one hundred years ago in India, all dramatic performances were centered around the superhuman activities of the Supreme Lord. The common people would be verily entertained by the performances of dramas, and yatra parties played wonderfully on the superhuman activities of the Lord, and thus even the illiterate agriculturist would be a participant in the knowledge of Vedic literature, despite a considerable lack of academic qualifications. Therefore, expert players in drama, dancers, singers, speakers, etc., are required for the spiritual enlightenment of the common man.'94 '96Srimad-Bhagavatam 1.11.20, purport.

Lord Chaitanya Himself took part in dramas during His grihastha days: '93Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu used to perform dramas with Adwaita Prabhu, Srivasa Thakura, and other devotees in the house of Chandrashekhara.'94 '96Sri Caitanya-caritamrta, Adi-lila 10.13, purport.

More here: http://lovingkrishna.blogspot.com/2009/04/srila-prabhupadas-instructions-on.html

DO NOT MAKE AN ABSOLUTE STANDARD OUT OF ONE QUOTE!

...in light of the different qoutes provided here, it seems to me that before we can answer the question Is Srila Prabhupadas formula for preaching enough?, we first need to define what Srila Prabhupadas formula is, no?

rasa108, its your question. Do you want to start by defining Srila Prabhupadas formula?

>DO NOT MAKE AN ABSOLUTE STANDARD OUT OF ONE QUOTE!

There are many quotes in this thread :-)

My dear rasa 108 prabhu ...i think deena deserves a reasonable answer please.Her question is very pertinent because having been invovled in iskcon preaching myself ,for quite awhile........including around your spiritual master. It has genuine relevance, because we do not share the same guru or infact his preaching mood and vision.Which i found to my eternal shock ,when Prabhuvishnu swami sold the temple my freinds and i had spent ten years to build..right from under us!Colo river....sydney Australia.Or are you just inclined to glibe one liners.....impersonal ....shallow ....but also with smiling faces !

Yeah, lets fight over the gurus... guru on guru... great preaching (or maybe kirtan is better?)

The pa'f1caruc0u257 trika Vaiu7779 u7751 ava principles of medieval South India have to some extent entered within the current practices of the Gauu7693 u299 ya Vaiu7779 u7751 avas. Descendants of the Gauu7693 u299 ya Vaiu7779 u7751 ava u257 cu257 ryas became more or less attached to the path of arcana, like the followers of the Pa'f1caru257 tras, and spread subordination to u346 ru299 man Mahu257 prabhu sometimes in its pure form but more often in a perverted form.... While preaching the pure path of bhu257 va explained in the u346 ru299 mad Bhu257 gavatam, u346 ru299 man Mahu257 prabhu distinguished it from mundane formalities, but in due course of time His teachings have become distorted into a branch of the pa'f1caru257 trika system. This, however, is not the purpose of u346 ru299 man Mahu257 prabhus pure preaching.

BSST -- Brahmana or Vaisnava ch 2.

Iskcon is a huge society ccd ...one may accept srila Prabhupada but have an extremely different appreciation of preaching and strategy.Myself i was trained as a sankirtan devotee .....which specifically means demons and devotees.Hook or by crook give them a book or take their laxmi for krishna.But as can be seen in the modern Iskcon....we are against Prabhupadas chop chop .....chop preaching style to a large extent.Very few devotees ....at least that is my personal perception,are ecstatically committed to surrendering ...and being subordinate to their temple president.There is a predominance of listening to your own guru......which is seperate in nature to what local iskcon temple managers would accept is best for their individual devotional services and what is the best strategy locally.

>Do you want to start by defining Srila Prabhupadas formula?

I think the formula is self-defined by Srila Prabhupadas words from the quote I posted at the very beginning of this thread:

"If we simply stick to this programme as I have done it since the beginning, namely, kirtana, preaching, kirtana, distribution of prasadam - if you do like this only that will be sufficient."

The other quotes in this thread also point towards KC dramas and presenting things in a way that is attractive to the masses (but not distractive from the message).

Thank you rasa 108 prabhu....

All Glories to Srila Prabhupada!

His Divine Grace Srila Prabhupada gave a perfect formula, we do not have to change it. We should not even think in terms of changing anything He has given us. We do have to change ourselves though, through prayer, chanting, introspection, service and association.

The formula given by Yuga Dharma Acarya Srila Prabhupada to us is perfect Acarya Lila of chanting and dancing, following the Original Source of this movement, Sri Krishna Caitanya Mahaprabhu in His Sri Navadwip dhama lila. The second part of Lord Caitanyas Lila takes place in Sri Jagannath Puri, where He spent the later years, teaching the formula to cry for Lord Krishna in separation. To this end Srila Gour Govinda Swami Srila Gurudeva opened a crying school in Sridham Bhubaneswara. Aspiring devotees can avail themselves of both the harinam, preaching, prasadam distribution formula, and the internal crying formula: absolute surrender and service in separation, following the residents of Vraja.

Srimad Bhagavad Gita As It Is, 1972 Edition Chapter 18, text 66:

sarva-dharman parityajya
mam ekam saranam vraja (here, vraja refers to the Vrajabasis)
aham tvam sarva-papebhyo
moksayisyami ma sucah

Lord Caitanyas Sri Siksastakam is a progressive description of His entire formula.
We can see where we are at and where we need to go.

1. Glory to the Sri Krishna Samkirtan which cleanses the heart of all the dust accumulated for years together and thus the fire of conditional life of repeated birth and death, is extinguished. Such Samkirtan movement is the prime benediction for the humanity at large because it spreads the rays of the benediction Moon. It is the life of all transcendental knowledge, it increases the ocean of transcendental bliss and it helps to have a taste of the full nectarine for which always anxious we are.

2. Oh my Lord your holy name can alone render all benediction upon the living being and therefore you have hundreds and millions of names like Krishna, Govinda etc. In these transcendental names You have invested all Your transcendental energies and there is no hard and fast rules for chanting these holy names. Oh my Lord You have so kindly made easy approach to You by Your holy name but unfortunate as I am, I have no attraction for them.

3. One can chant the holy name of the Lord in an humble state of mind thinking himself as lower than the straw in the street, tolerant more than the tree, devoid of all sense of false prestige and being ready to offer all kinds of respect to others. In such state of mind one can chant the holy name of the Lord constantly.

4. Oh the almighty Lord! I have no desire for accumulating wealth nor I have any desire to enjoy beautiful woman neither I want any number of followers of mine. What I want only is that I may have Your causeless devotional service in my life birth after birth.

5. Oh the son of Maharaj Nanda, I am Your eternal servitor and although I am so, some how or other I have fallen in the ocean of birth and death. Please therefore pick me up from this ocean of death and fix me up as one of the atoms of Your lotus feet.

6. Oh my Lord when shall my eyes be decorated with tears of love flowing constantly by chanting Your holy name? When my words will be choked up when uttering the holy name? And when all the holes of hair on my body will have eruptions by the recitation of Your name?

7. Oh Govinda! Feeling Your separation I am considering a moment as twelve years or more than that and tears flowing from my eyes like the torrents of rains I am feeling all vacant in the world in the absence of your presence.

8. I do not know anyone except Krishna as my Lord and He shall always remain as such even if He handles me roughly by his embrace or he may make me broken hearted by not being present before me. He is completely free to do anything and everything but he is always my worshipful Lord, unconditionally.

If Siksastakam is about preaching, I must be in a serious mood today..

All Glories to Srila Prabhupada!

Hare Krishna!

"Sankirtan is congregational chanting of the holy names of the Lord and distributing the books of Srila Prabhupada. Lord Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu introduced the sankirtan movement 500 years ago and it is the spiritual process recommended in the Vedas for the age of Kali, the age we now find ourselves in. From the beginning of the Krishna consciousness movement in the West, Srila Prabhupada directed the devotees to chant congregationally in the temple as well as in the parks and streets of the towns and cities. Soon, devotees began selling Back To Godhead magazines alongside the chanting party, and when book distribution started, it was also called "going out on sankirtan." Srila Prabhupada said that book distribution is the most important form of sankirtan, because it spreads transcendental knowledge and engages people in devotional service. It is the Brhat Mrdanga "the big drum". Therefore the production and distribution of transcendental literature is very pleasing to Srila Prabhupada and the entire disciplic succession." harekrishnatemple.com

"Here Lord Krishna describes the activities within the golden age that will purify the Kali yuga. First and foremost is the chanting of Lord Krishnas name, indicated by the words harernamani. This is further confirmed in the Brihad-naradiya Purana as follows:

harer nama harer nama harer namaiva kevalam
kalau nastyeva nastyeva nastyeva gatir anyata

"In the age of Kali there is no other way to achieve the supreme destination of life other than by chanting the names of Lord Hari (Krishna). There is no other way, no other way, no other way."

The second activity that Lord Krishna describes is the reading of the Bhagavata Purana, or Srimad Bhagavatam. The reading of Srimad Bhagavatam is especially recommended by the great sage Vyasadeva for purification of the heart:

srinvatam sva kathah krishnah
punya-sravana-kirtanah
hridy antah stho hy abhadrani
vidhunoti suhrit satam

"By hearing and reciting the sacred narrations of the pastimes of Lord Krishna (within the Srimad Bhagavatam), all the bad qualities within ones heart are cleansed." from the Brahma-vaivarta Purana

"You are asking what should your preaching work be now that you are attending the university. So the first preaching work is that yourself should become an ideal devotee. Lord Caitanya said that one should first make himself perfect and then attempt to instruct others." Srila Pabhupada

Sudama: Ive been asked a question by some devotees; sometimes that they dont feel happy. So even if they are unhappy, mentally, should, they still should continue in Krsna consciousness. I tell them, even if one is unhappy...

Prabhupada: But you should show example. If you show example different way, how they will follow you?

Sudama: Yeah.

Prabhupada: Example is better than precept.

Siksastakam as Preaching

1. Harinama, book distribution, spreading transcendental knowledge and gaining taste for these things.
2. Maintaining, despite lack of attraction to these things, and introspection as to our lowly condition.
3. Developing humility: essential for reforming nama aparadha into nambas.
4. Having a taste for service and chanting, Giving up all other things. Preaching by example.
5. Crying
6. Begging
7. Suffering in separation
8. Absolute unconditional surrender. Highest example. Capable of purifying without even using words.

S B 11 .2 .30
Therefore, O completely sinless ones, I ask you to kindly tell me what the supreme good is. After all, even half a moments association with pure devotees within this world of birth and death is a priceless treasure for any man.

"A moments glimpse of a pure devotee is enough to purify the heart of a sinful man in this age of Kali. Even mother Ganga is blessed and purified by the association of the Lords devotees, so what to speak of fallen souls like ourselves. We must take every opportunity to associate with the Lords pure devotees. This is the process of sadhu-sanga, or sat-sanga. Through association with the saints, we come in contact directly with the Supreme Lord. If we have such a great fortune to associate with the saintly devotees of the Lord, our heart will be purified of all the sinful reactions accumulated from countless lifetimes." from the Brahma-vaivarta Purana

Of course Srila Pahbupadas formula is enough and it is only that formula that actually changes materialistically minded people into devotees. But sometimes you need need to turn heads or attract more people to the event so you can expose them to Srila Prabhupadas formula.

If you advertise on posters there will be chanting and philosophy discussions in a park by Gaudia Vaisnavas how many will come? not many.

If you advertise "The Festival of Chaitanya Mahaprabhu, feasting, dancing, discourse, books, music (kirtan and bhajan), Krisha plays etc...thousands will come
and as long as Srila Prabhupadas formula is there and they get exposed to it thats whats important.

The mistake would be to only do a Krishna Rock and Roll band and expect that to make devotees, of course it wont.

[quote][cite] manasi_seva:[/cite]The mistake would be to only do a Krishna Rock and Roll band and expect that to make devotees, of course it wont.[/quote]

Have to agree with you there....I personally travelled for 9 years in a Hare Krsna rock band, one year we abandoned the band and we found that kirtan was 1 million times more effective - people would dance and chant instead of just sitting and watching a performance. The reason is that people in general hear rock music all the time and want something different....and of course the obvious, kirtan uses vedic instruments and ragas that invoke a more mode of goodness atmosphere and of course the Maha mantra, when chanted in this way, is very powerful.

Kirtan is the new rock. It really takes off.

During his massage ,which took place upstairs on his veranda,srila Prabhupada glanced across the feilds towards the gosala.So our siddha swarupa and sudama vipra like to stay at the banana plantation?....he asked.I took his enquiry as a prompt to ask some questions of my own.I wanted to hear Prabhupadas response to some specific points of contention between siddha swarupa s followers and our iskcon devotees.Srila Prabhupada ,when siddha swarupa first surrendered.....Srila Prabhupada cut me off.He never surrendered!Then he chuckled.Seeing my surprised look,he explained that they had come and made some offering of men and assets.Therefore he was trying to engage them in devotional service.
I [hari sauri das]asked wether our devotees should read siddha swarupas books,because ISKCON devotees have been told that they are not bonifide.Srila Prabhupada laughed and replied good humouredly.We dont take notice of what they say.We just take their money!.....Of course i have some affection for them.I dont send them away,and they are coming to see me.Just like there are so many animals,some are a little more feircer than others.He also pionted out that they are coming to us,not us to them.Srila Prabhupada refers to ISKCON as us!He said that their are differences,just as there are between him and his godbrothers,but that we share a common platform of chanting hare krishna and taking prasadam......page 409 A Transcendental diary...by hari sari das....march ,1976

This interesting creative preaching stategy of srila Prabhupadas is shown in a wonderfully compassionate yet brutally honest direct preaching engagement for the benefit of siddha swarupa and his team.....Seems very expert amd quite ruthless in my humble opinion.

feburary 22nd ,1976....Before his walk Prabhupada suggested that Dayananda and i write to the devotees in London and New zealand to find out wether we can sell indian clothes and brassware there.He said that he has some capital in Lloyds Bank,and if we start exporting indian cloth and other items,the government will think well of us.At the same time we shall make a useful profit.Actually from mayapura the devotees are already supplying many ISKCON temples with cloth that has been made on our own handlooms......page 373 A Transcendental diary...by hari sari das

Several interesting sankirtan quotes to allow us all to broaden our complete glorification....... sankirtan perspectives obviously!

Sankirtan means congregational chanting of the holy name SDG, selling brass and cloth is laxmi or money collection which is very necessary but one should not confuse money collection with Sankirtan.

Yes Kirtan is like an instant transcendental mosh pit, it is interesting how people really take to it.

Interesting comments rasa108... yes there is nothing like the true realization of having done one thing vs another and seen what is superior and what is inferior.

Kirtan is from the spiritual world, music, song and dance (kirtan/bhajan) is so important in the practice of Gaudia Vaisnava culture and philosophy, I was once invited to some talks by a buddhist monk, his talks were very logical and he was very honest and sincere but vs Bhakti yoga with Kirtan, prasadam and the deities Buddhism seems so dry.

[quote][cite] sri_govinda_das:[/cite]This interesting creative preaching stategy of srila Prabhupadas is shown in a wonderfully compassionate yet brutally honest direct preaching engagement for the benefit of siddha swarupa and his team.....Seems very expert amd quite ruthless in my humble opinion.[/quote]

Well... in the same way we can see Prabhupada using money collected by his disciples using criminal methods. He knew what they were doing to collect that money but he did not stop them because he needed the money for his projects. That in turn created a precedent for his disciples like Kirtanananda and Hansadutta, who later employed all kinds of abominable practices in the name of serving Krsna.

Im not sure that it was an expert ot compassionate approach if we judge things by the results.

Kula- pavana : Your comment above.

May i ask, what sort of " criminal methods " was used by the devotees to collect money and how
certain are you that HDG Sirla Prabhupada knew of this but did not do anything.

Examples of such methods involve quite a few individuals and you can read about it in a book Monkey on a Stick and other places. Guru-kripa is one instance where SP knew from several different sources exactly what these methods included (like flat out smash-and-grab robbery) and did nothing to stop it. Several devotees warned SP that these methods will create bad publicity for the movement yet he continued his support for Guru-kripa and his crew in Japan because he wanted to build big temples in India. Other well documented cases involve drug trafficking in California and illegal hustling people for money in Germany by Hansaduttas men. In those cases as well SP was warned by his disciples about these activities taking place, yet again nothing was done until the police got involved and the scandals blew up in our face.

What Hari-sauri writes here:
--------------------
Srila Prabhupada laughed and replied good humouredly.We dont take notice of what they say.We just take their money!.....Of course i have some affection for them.I dont send them away,and they are coming to see me.Just like there are so many animals,some are a little more feircer than others.
---------------------

... reflects his approach in those matters. He did have affection for his disciples, even those in the fierce animal category. And he indeed used them in Krsnas service, not to enrich himself. Still, this approach had very serious unintended consequences and we should not pretend otherwise.

Thank you, Kula-pavana prabhu.

Remember Tirumangai Alvar.

[quote][cite] VEDA:[/cite]Remember Tirumangai Alvar.[/quote]
I would venture to say that for every Tirumangai Alvar in Vaishnava history there were thousands of Kirtananandas and Hansaduttas, disgracing Vaishnavism not only with their criminality, but with their abominable personal behavior as well. Thus the rule should never be replaced with rare exceptions. The motto "End justifies the means" is not Vedic, is not Aryan, is not approved by the shastra. Invariably those who adopt that motto even with good intentions pave the way for grand abuses of power in the name of serving their cause.

Very well said, Kula-pavana.

So my dear kula-pavanna das how do you deal with the instance of srila Prabhupada telling Guru-kripa swami that he and krishna had prepared a house for maharaja in the spiritual sky after he provided the laxsmi for the Vrindavan project to build Krishna -balarama...,while he was traveling in New Zealand?

I meant Srila Prabhupada acting like Tirumangai Alvar in such cases.

Yes veda prabhu ...i do understand your valid piont and sound reasoning.However these inexperienced blasphemers should first attempt to fly!They cannot appreciate collecting literally millions of dollars for srila Prabhupada,like guru-kripa swami did during his wonderful earlier years!
They are submerged within their mode of ignorance and merely vomit forth putrid envious pioson.Unable to even go and submit to a ISKCON authority they simply dwell on the mental platform.Hence they are unable to progress in their spiritual lives.
Srila Prabhupada deliniates how we should act.....he was dealing with his own envious godbrothers.Page 279...A Transcendental diary...january 19 1976.
Srila Prabhupada felt the problems were due to a lack of understanding of proper Vaisnava dealings.
What bothers me is their dictating mood.Why they should dictate?First of all let them become like me.Equality brings freindship.Who ever is older he will dictate;and whoever is younger,he will respect the superior.This is the rule.Neither they are equal nor senior,then why they should dictate?Who is superior,he will dictate;and who is equal,he should live like freind;and who is junior,they should follow and obey.This is the Vaisnava rule.Those who are neither equal nor higher,now they can dictate?That is a mistake.Either,first of all become higher than him,then dictate;or become equal with him,then you suggest.You are lower,and you want to dictate.What is this nonsense?.....
Simply put kula pavanna you have no status to try and use your frog in the wellmentality to cast aspirtions against senior devotees.Who was so totally surrendered to our founder Archarya.Have you paid for a Krishna- balarama temple like guru-kripa das?........Has srila Prabhupada personally pulled you aside to travel with him,then told you that he and krishna have built a house in the spiritual sky especially for you?Like Srila Prabhupada told gurukripa when they travelled together in new Zealand?Since you are not his equal why must we listen ....we do not,You are lower......you do not have the agnata-sukriti to even cast insidious innuendos like you attempt to do!

When Srila Prabhupada was told about devotees selling drugs (in Southern California) he said "what is the harm -- I was also in the drug business." Then they explained that they were dealing in illegal drugs -- narcotics. Srila Prabhupada immediately responded by saying, "no -- this must stop - they should not do like that."

[quote][cite] sri_govinda_das:[/cite]So my dear kula-pavanna das how do you deal with the instance of srila Prabhupada telling Guru-kripa swami that he and krishna had prepared a house for maharaja in the spiritual sky after he provided the laxsmi for the Vrindavan project to build Krishna -balarama...,while he was traveling in New Zealand?[/quote]

That is between the parties in this sentence.

[quote][cite] sri_govinda_das:[/cite]They cannot appreciate collecting literally millions of dollars for srila Prabhupada,like guru-kripa swami did during his wonderful earlier years![/quote]
A robber and a thief deserves proper punishment. Manu Samhita deals with that in detail and does not excuse criminals working for religious projects. That is shastra speaking. Concocting rules to justify crime in the name of higher purpose is not Aryan. It is Semitic thinking. Such concocted rules caused tremendous damage to the good name of Vaishnavism all over the world. That is a fact.

Dharmasastras deal with the material society. However, Krsna seva is another league. This doesnt mean that I agree with crimes done by Vaisnavas but the perpetrators may get absolved sooner than we think - see HBV 11 (e.g. 326, 332-333) - and to criticize them later isnt good for us. Imho, this vicious circle of criticism is one of the main obstacles of ISKCONs progress.

[quote][cite] VEDA:[/cite]Dharmasastras deal with the material society. However, Krsna seva is another league. This doesnt mean that I agree with crimes done by Vaisnavas but the perpetrators may get absolved sooner than we think - see HBV 11 (e.g. 326, 332-333) - and to criticize them later isnt good for us. Imho, this vicious circle of criticism is one of the main obstacles of ISKCONs progress.[/quote]

Yes, a Vaishnava criminal may be hanged in accordance with the earthly law, only to be pardoned by Krsna and admitted to Vaikuntha because he had the right consciousness at the time of death. These two types of justice run on paralel tracks and one can never replace the other. -------------------- While criticising (real) Vaishnavas for their criminal exploits may not be good for our spiritual life, allowing them to run unchecked cant be good to us either - both materially and spiritually. Like I said earlier, a lot of people in the world think poorly about Krsna consciousness movement because of criminal deeds comitted by certain devotees. Do you think that is without spiritual consequence? ------------------- There is no power without responsibility for actions while empowered.

>This doesnt mean that I agree with crimes done by Vaisnavas but the perpetrators may get absolved sooner than we think - see HBV 11 (e.g. 326, 332-333)

Being a Vaishnava does not give one license to commit crime. This is the second nama aparadha which is "Namno balad hi yasya papa budhi" To commit sinful activities on the strength of holy name. Out of ten nama aparadhas this is the most dangerous one. One can not make spiritual progress if he is committing this nama aparadha.

I for sure agree with those caveats. Srila Prabhupada wanted his followers to be perfect gentlemen.

Sorry kula-pavanna.....are you calling what guru-kripa did on sankirtan as being the activities of a mundane theif and a robber?And if so kindly explain how such activities were so displeasing to srila Prabhupada that he blessed guru-kripa das with a cintamani house in the spiritual sky!Could you please show us how srila Prabhupada got it so wrong on this occasion!What faults have you personally being able to perceive within the character of the Founder-archarya of ISKCON?Sorry were you present with srila Prabhupada...like hari-sauri ,bhavananda,or Tamala-krishna goswami when he personally instructed ypou how guru-kripa das was just a theif and a robber?Then why did he and krishna build a house within the spiritual sky for him?Please explain the serious deficency which our srila Prabhupada was unable to comprehend......unlike you!This is a wonderful opportunity to show us how you know more than srila Prabhupada....please enlighten us prabhu?Otherwise accept the obvious limitations of your sankirtan experience ,realisation and lack of surrender to srila Prabhupadas preaching mission......face facts you are just simply floating on the mental plane!!

So Portnoy are you also saying that guru-kripa das was selling drugs in the USA?Please explain further.....i am shore he will be extremely interested to hear about your spiritual realisations concerning how he is a drug dealer!I am able to contact guru-kripa das in Thailand ....how enthusiastic he will be to find out your address to come and visit you personally to discuss such accusations!Otherwise you are merely using another cheap shot .....your motive is because you are no longer able to personally rectify yourself voluntarily ,you hope to drag others down to your rather pathetic position!.....What iskcon temples have you built?......Please kula-pavanna ....what huge preaching have you performed to actually be situated on a similar status as guru-kripa das?Have you both done such immense service to srila Prabhupada?
Ambarisa das and bhavananda das are ready to build the temple of understanding and planetarium soon.....it has been sanctioned by the GBC......srila Prabhupada has told his many disciples that srila Bhaktivinoda takura will personally come from the spiritual world and take them back to the spiritual world if the successfully build this spiritual city!........Sorry what have the both of you done?Please feel free to enlighten us!.....otherwise just naraki conciousness.......looking for the stool....like envious snakes!

SGD you are digging yourself into an embarrassing hole, give it up and stop trying to convince sane people that committing crimes in the name of Krishna is fine, no wonder you are so gullible if you believe that trash. It is possible Srila Prabhupada did not fully understand what some of his disciples were up to, he should be given the benefit of the doubt. A lot went on in Iskcon while Srila Prabhupada was alive without his knowledge.

Guru Krpa lives in Thailand what does that tell you? He lives in the sex and drug capital of the world..why didnt he go live in India? I am not saying he is mixed up in the drugs and sex there, but why to live in the middle of that? I would rather live in India. I have never been to Thailand, it simply doesnt interest me. I have been to India many times ( Mayapur, Vrndavan, Rishikesh, Benares ) those places interest me and I would like to live there.

Bhavananda is the creative director, thats like the title with no meaning...he can float around and lay claim that it was all his work. Ambarisha is obviously putting up the finance but real architects, engineers and labourers will build it. Building a bunch of massive stone buildings in the poorest area of India will guarantee you a place in godhead? Wow what are we waiting for boys! lets build our way back to godhead! Reminds me of the tower of babel story...LMHO

Sri Govinda Das - So Portnoy are you also saying that guru-kripa das was selling drugs in the USA?Please explain further.....i am shore he will be extremely interested to hear about your spiritual realisations concerning how he is a drug dealer!I am able to contact guru-kripa das in Thailand ....how enthusiastic he will be to find out your address to come and visit you personally to discuss such accusations!

I do not understand what you mean by this comment. Is this some kind of a threat. The tone of your language sure
sounds like it. But then i may be wrong. Now, instead of that why dont you use your" influence" to invite HG Guru Krpa
to join this forum It will certainly be interesting to hear or read his inputs on his pastimes with HDG Sirla Prabhupada ,
Iskcon and his realization, experiences in Krsna consciousness directly from him.

Sri-govinda-das ... were you born with your foot in your mouth? Do you stand in front of a mirror and practice looking and sounding stupid? You just might be the most ignorant fool I have ever come into contact with -- on or off the Internet. You really do take the cake. Its amazing. Every single thing you post here --- when I finally wade through all the idiotic spelling and grammatical mistakes and try to figure out what the hell you are saying - I gain new insight into your ignorance. This is not a personal attack. This is just an objective observation. I have never had the occasion to say this to anybody else in all my years and experiences and travels which are very extensive. So actually you are quite unique. You win first prize. I cant even think of anyone who comes in a close second. You are way ahead of the pack. What makes you especially irksome is that you embarrass any and all sober, intelligent and mature individuals who have some respect and appreciation for the teachings and mission of His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada. Every time I see his exalted name mentioned in one of your posts I cringe. That is why I have pleaded with you over and over to refrain from participating in this or any other public forum. Thankfully this tiny little website isnt very well known nor popular. That might be one of the reasons you have found a home here. I suppose the admins are so desperate for any participation and patronage that theyre happy to have you and Veda fill up the empty spaces day after day .. hour after hour ... thread after thread after post after post. This is your schoolyard as it were and anybody who comes to play has to deal with one or both of you blockheads.

[quote][cite] sri_govinda_das:[/cite]Sorry kula-pavanna.....are you calling what guru-kripa did on sankirtan as being the activities of a mundane theif and a robber?And if so kindly explain how such activities were so displeasing to srila Prabhupada that he blessed guru-kripa das with a cintamani house in the spiritual sky[/quote]

Yes, I call what Guru-kripa did the activities of a thief, crook, robber, and a criminal. You have been brainwashed by crooks like him in Iskcon into believing that a devotee can do this kind of nonsense and have a cintamani house in the spiritual sky. There is a similar class of brainwashed religious idiots who believe in getting 40 virgins in heaven for killing infidels in their holy war. Sounds familiar? It should, because it is the same propaganda garbage.

And to make things clear: I chose not believe that Srila Prabhupada actually told Guru-kripa "Krsna and I have built you a cintamani house in the spiritual sky for all the money you brought me". Such things cannot be purchased with money... be it clean or dirty money. Over the years I have heard a lot of bogus Prabhupada said stories told to simple devotees on the pick by their scamkirtan leaders.

So kula-pavanna wether you beleive or not our Prabhupada lila ,what is your position?We obviously have no devotional common ground since you are also intent on being like a paramara...... You are such a pamara[low minded or sinful] that this thing has come to your notice and not other thing? Just try to understand what is the mentality of these rascals that The good things do not come to your notice. If something is bad, Oh here is .... You see. Pamara dosam icchanti gunam icchanti panditah. Saj-jana gunamicchanti dosam icchanti pamarah. That means they are not even a Vaisnava. You see? Vaisnava means paramo nirmatsarana.Quote from page205,nellore,andra pradesh...transcendental diary1976. [Non-envious this is the fundamental nature and aspiration of all would be servants of krishna].Even one has got some fault; a Vaisnava does not see that. He takes the good qualities. But they are not even Vaisnava. The mission of Caitanya Mahaprabhu is being preached all over the world-that does not come to their attention, Some Japanese newspaper has written something--it has come immediately. Hes lowest of the mankind. You can say that Why this thing has come prominent to your eyes and not the other thing?"Simarly ....kula-pavanna i call you a paramara....low class...simply looking for stool.Why you fail to see the wonderful good iskcon is doing everyday!

SGD you are so embarrassing to listen to, I just hope sincere new comers never have to hear your awful, dreadful angle on Srila Prabhuapa and Krishna, have you no shame? to speak about Srila Prabhupada in this way. You have little or no proof only some distant memory in a book called "Transcendental Diary" by Hauri Sauri Das who had a dreadful fall down while a Sannyasi (Prabhupada Kripa Goswami), he was flying into Bangkok and visiting all the prostitutes and using Srila Prabhupadas money to do it. He turned out to be a Go Das (servant of the senses), rather than a Goswami (master of the senses) I would not be placing my faith on his recollections.

Kula-pavana is refusing to accept that Srila Prabhupada sanctioned illegal activities in the name of Krishna, so much was done without the sanction of Srila Prabhupada. Srila Prabhupadas instructions to Narayana Maharaja was "Please help them they are like monkeys!" and wasnt he right! infact worse than monkeys even the monkeys have a sense of family and protecting their own.

You are the person who blasphemes Narayan Maharaja and worships Bhavananda the child molester (objective fact proven by your past posts on this website) Such is your position you are so covered over by the sub culture of the old Iskcon from the late 70s to early 80s. Most have seen through that awful shallow period but you base your preaching on it. The sub-culture of Iskcon during that period was an awful sham, the leaders were wheeling and dealing and they brought so much shame on Srila Prabhupadas movement not to speak of how many sincere devotees they completely ruined! and it was the sub-culture! not the main vaisnava culture that Srila Prabhupada installed.

You need to enter the shadows and deal with your demons before you cast suspersions on Srila Prabhupada, you think you are doing service but you are doing a huge dis-service to Srila Prabhupada, you are a unique example of how a little/almost zero knowledge is very very dangerous.

You are not convincing anyone in this thread of your arguments so why do you continue on this most rediculous angle and for what reason one can only guess. Are you about to embark some illegal money making sham that you feel is justified because you think Srila Prabhupada sanctioned all of this, I find it so outrageous and offensive that you can speak of Srila Prabhupada in this light.

Also SGD if you are going to continue to post here can you please use the "Check Spelling" link conveniently provided at the bottom of the edit box, your posts are always full of so many spelling and grammatical errors that people will write you off as some bozo the clown and we wouldnt want that now would we? *Manasi Seva squeezes your bozo the clown like nose*

[quote][cite] sri_govinda_das:[/cite]....kula-pavanna i call you a paramara....low class...simply looking for stool.Why you fail to see the wonderful good iskcon is doing everyday![/quote]

I have no problem seeing the wonderful good things happening in Iskcon every day. I also have no problem seeing the bad things that happened in the past or might be happening now. ------------------------- Some devotees have no problem pointing out the faults of other people, but when someone points out THEIR problem, they call them names and accuse them of looking for stool. Such devotees lose all credibility.

sri-govinda-das: The ISKCON bosses need to hire a publicist just to counteract the harm you are doing right here on the Internet. Do you have any idea how many people you are turning away from ISKCON with each and every word you type and post? For instance -- my neighbor often borrows my computer. He has some interest in Krishna consciousness and especially loves the chanting. Around a week ago he came over to use the computer and I was logged on to the Internet already and at this site. Out of curiosity he began reading one of the threads. After around a half hour I came into my house and saw him sitting there shaking his head in disbelief. I asked him what was up. This is what he said: "Ive been reading through these comments that different Krishna devotees are making about some subject. Theres one guy, a sri-govinda-das, who is such a turn off that after reading just some of his comments --- if I were considering the possibility of joining ISKCON at some point in time this guy has completely turned me off of the idea. If he is an example of the kind of people there then I dont want anything to do with it.