Pariprashnena — Q&A Archive

I asked Prahladananda Swami the same quesion. Here is his response:

---------- Forwarded Message ----------

Letter PAMHO:12952535 (89 lines)
From: Prahladananda Swami
Date: 25-Jan-07 22:46 (06:46 +0800)
Subject: Interview questions

> 7. You recently presented a thought-provoking and comprehensive article at
> the Iskcon European Leaders convention clarifying the role of Guru in
> relation to the GBC and the management of Iskcon. In that article you
> claim that some of the GBCs leading members are initiating gurus who do
> not want to surrender their high degree of autonomy in the Society. By
> what symptoms do we recognise such a person and what should we do if we
> recognise such a person?

For most of the devotees within the society it is not a problem, but
the leaders they should see that the gurus are cooperating with the
authority structure set up by Srila Prabhupada.

> 8. You stated that historically Iskcon gurus have not followed
> Prabhupadas management plan and therefore have a tendency to divert
> resources from Prabhupadas mission. Does this apply today, to the Perth
> yatra? (OR, Should the Perth yatra be concerned about this issue?)

I dont think so.

> 9. You claimed that after Prabhupadas disappearance, some of the
> initiating spiritual masters falsely claimed that they had become perfect
> uttama-adhikari Vaisnavas. Do we need to be aware of the same tendency
> nowadays or has the danger passed? By what symptoms do we recognise a
> person posing as an advanced devotee?

I dont think so.

> > Did you answer I dont think so to Do we need to be aware of the same
> > tendency nowadays?," or to "Has the danger passed?"

As long as we are conditioned souls, that tendency will be there.
It can only be checked by sincere cooperation to spread the sankirtan
movement.

Hope all is well.
Yours in the service of Srila Prabhupada!
Prahladananda Swami

Overall Maharaja seems to be saying the whole issue is not really a problem for most devotees.

But then I wondered, If it isnt really problem, then why all the effort to write such a comprehensive paper and present it? It didnt add up.

>For most of the devotees within the society it is not a problem, but
>the leaders they should see that the gurus are cooperating with the
>authority structure set up by Srila Prabhupada.

I can see that Prahladananda Maharaja is expressing that there is indeed a problem and that should be corrected by the leaders to make sure initiating gurus are co-operating together under the GBC authority structure....is it possible?

Every time I see those words "initiating gurus" I have to wonder how this insanity ever became accepted as "what Srila Prabhupada wanted." The whole set up is a concoction and light years away from Srila Prabhupadas vision and instructions for his ISKCON society in his absence. What a sad state of affairs. No wonder that since 1977 there are thousands who finally figured out something wasnt right (especially when their zonal acarya or subsequent voted-in GBC sanctioned ISKCON diksha guru was caught with his pants down and relegated to the fallen guru retirement home which is next door to the halfway house for fallen sannyasis) and who feel betrayed and disillusioned --- and on the other end of the spectrum there are thousands of blind zealots who would follow their rubber stamped guru to the ends of the Earth. Anyway -- principles before personalities. Its not a matter of this or that personality -- the whole structure -- the entire concept -- the very foundation -- is WRONG and no amount of reforms or high level Mayapur meetings -- or seminars -- or proclamations -- can make it right. Two plus two equals four. It doesnt equal three and it doesnt equal five. If youve been trying to work out a complex problem but you began on the premise that two plus two equals five --- you have to eventually go back to the drawing board -- to square one. Erase everything on the board because theres no way to fix it without correcting the very first step and making sure that first step is in the right direction. Why is it that almost all of Srila Prabhupadas initiated disciples are no longer active in ISKCON? Is it because were all a bunch of lazy idiots? No! Its because we saw that a handful of our godbrothers consolidated power, usurped control of the institution and became corrupt in their self-serving attempts to maintain the status quo even if that meant kicking out every single one of their godbrothers (senior godbrothers in many cases) if they didnt acquiesce to their lies. It will all become clear someday because the truth will emerge. If the dirt doesnt come out in the wash it will eventually come out in the rinse.

[quote][cite] portnoy:[/cite] No wonder that since 1977 there are thousands who finally figured out something wasnt right... [/quote]

I would say that the dropout rate in Iskcon now is not any greater than it was pre-1977. Devotees leave for a wide variety of reasons.
Being disappointed in the leadership is one thing, leaving the process of KC is something else. There were plenty of management problems in early Iskcon as well - huge problems, completely dwarfing the issues our movement faces today. Blaming GBC for not being perfect today is extremely naive. It never was perfect...

What are you talking about? Im discussing oranges and then you come and give a dissertation about apples. I focused in on one thing -- the fact that of the approx. 5,000 of us who were initiated by Srila Prabhuapda between 1966 and 1977 --- approx. 85 to 90 percent of us either left or were thrown out in the years following Srila Prabhupadas departure because of the horrific deviations that jaded the entire institution.

To think that I dont know that some people leave due to management problems and some leave "the process of KC" is beyond naive -- its an insult to my intelligence. You might want to read carefully a persons comment and then think about it for some time before you start typing.

Oh .. and youre telling me that the problems in early ISKCON dwarf the issues in "our movement today" ??? I dont even know how to address that and I think I should save my energy because a person who could make that statement would never understand or accept the truth no matter how clearly I tried to put it into words.

Kula-pavana Das. Thats who you are? Kula-pavana Das. No -- the name doesnt ring a bell. Doesnt matter. From this last comment alone I get a pretty good picture of who you are.

Yeah -- Im naive and youre a rocket scientist in the daytime and a Vedic scholar at night. Hey - maybe youll get elected to become an initiating ISKCON guru if youre a good boy. Have patience. Your day will come.

[quote][cite] portnoy:[/cite]What are you talking about? Im discussing oranges and then you come and give a dissertation about apples. I focused in on one thing -- the fact that of the approx. 5,000 of us who were initiated by Srila Prabhuapda between 1966 and 1977 --- approx. 85 to 90 percent of us either left or were thrown out in the years following Srila Prabhupadas departure because of the horrific deviations that jaded the entire institution. [/quote] Lies, damned lies, and statistics all in one...I think this argument, being a lie is so obvious, that it is hard to imagine how na'edve one must be put it forward. If your name rings a bell please tell us pornoy... it will be fun to hear the bells and whistles of early disciple who was kicked out... You get my thanks for being so obvious(ly) deceitful.

My dear Prahladananda maharaja was practicing a diplomatic sidestep on our Deena.....but she intelligently was able to see the true reality.This is what happens when we try so hard to be consumerable in our speech......cheating in a light way.Because he is trained to double speak....instead of straight forward brahminical speech.Which fails to allow you to be right in every situation.Always trying to be right in every situation though is what a corporate culture forces one to do .....But this institutional mentality fails when asked genuine questions by honest simple hearted devotees.

Having been around for a reasonable time myself.......i wonder what planet my devotional freind Portnoy has been on because it certainly is not the same Iskcon i have been serving.However such great souls usually end up in all the wrong teams.......like
you need an uttama ....or else!.....Narayanna maharaja.........as we grow around the world by honest preaching endeavours. They attempt to steal our devotees,because they do not have the ability or the books!
Or the apa-sampradaya teams..... like the ritviks.....who have no qualified leaders, the haribols and the vegan loft brahmanis. Who practice cow protection without cows......while foolishly sitting on vyasanas trying to lecture male devotees because they have never been trained properly.Such persons should spend more time on Sun sampradaya.....It is for the immature ,foolish ,misguided and envious.But here....... you will not be saved by Rocannas biased editorial skills.

Kula pavanna prabhu speaks with genuine wisdom and simple maturity.........i also fail to understand how you promise to chant 16 rounds and follow srila Prabhupadas servants then you plain fail.......even if your guru falls .....like mine did.How shallow and spineless to just surrender to mayadevi.To just crawl away and give up! How utterly pathetic!.....Just cheaters in the guise of a devotee.
Better to see the genuine disciples men and women ,whose personal discipline enables them to keep the spiritual masters mission going forward despite the many problems and differculties. Those Prabhupada disciples i worship and love!....hare krishna.

[quote][cite] portnoy:[/cite]I focused in on one thing -- the fact that of the approx. 5,000 of us who were initiated by Srila Prabhuapda between 1966 and 1977 --- approx. 85 to 90 percent of us either left or were thrown out in the years following Srila Prabhupadas departure because of the horrific deviations that jaded the entire institution. [/quote]

I call this statement both inaccurate and naive. I joined in 1979 in England and over the years I saw the activities of Prabhupadas disciples up close and personal. They were the ones doing the deceiving - the new crop of devotees had very little power in the authoritarian Iskcon and was not spoiled by the crooked ways their authorities learned in the 70s. I am sure that some of Prabhupadas disciples indeed left the movement shocked at the deviations of their high ranking godbrothers or were kicked out by the crooks in charge, but these cases were a SMAL MINORITY in my observation. For example: WHO EXACTLY left New Vridavan out of such noble shock during Kirtananandas reign? I went there in late 80s and the entire show was run by... surprise, surprise... very numerous Prabhupadas disciples. ----------------- Lets face it... Iskcon was always burning through new converts at a very high rate - even during Srila Prabhupadas presence - mismanagement and deviations were just as bad in the 70s as they were in the 80s. Folks like you suffer from an acute case of selective memory. I much prefer Iskcon of today from Iskcon of 1979. ------ Over the years I also met a lot of good disciples of SP - both inside and outside Iskcon - many are still very actively preaching and I support them all.

[quote][cite] portnoy:[/cite]
Oh .. and youre telling me that the problems in early ISKCON dwarf the issues in "our movement today" ??? I dont even know how to address that and I think I should save my energy because a person who could make that statement would never understand or accept the truth no matter how clearly I tried to put it into words. [/quote]

Look at the current Iskcon. Do you see cases of systemic child abuse and neglect? Do you see devotees collect money from criminal activities to support their temples? Do you see any activities that cause public scandals giving our movement a bad image? No you dont. Sure, there are still problems, but they are nowhere near as bad as those Iskcon had in the 70s.

>Look at the current Iskcon. Do you see cases of systemic child abuse and neglect? Do you see devotees collect money from criminal activities to support their temples? >Do you see any activities that cause public scandals giving our movement a bad image?

Many aspects have certainly improved and there are preventative systems in place to ward off future abuse etc....getting back to the original question - is it within the power and capability of the leaders of the GBC to bring into line certain spiritual masters who are operating within ISKCON but maintaining autonomy a) Without committing offenses - b) To effectively form a united preaching front that dissolves the autonomy issue

Rasa-ji, no I do not buy the theory that somehow GBC lacks authority - there is nobody limiting them, and they do not answer to any other authority. The problem is that GBC members often do not follow rules made by the GBC body - case in point are the financial accountability rules for example. But it is strictly their own fault, because as a body they lack the courage to enforce their own rules. It is not a case of GBC body versus initiating gurus - that is a red herring - it is a case of their own weakness. With power comes responsibility.

Kula -pavanna prabhu.....you give us lesser souls shelter in your intelligence and devotional wisdom....thank you prabhu.!

My dear rasa 108 prabhu....i fail to see how a united preaching front is necessarily the best formula,if it does not allow individual gurus their own space to build their own preaching missions.Two spiritual masters have very different mellows of serving srila Prabhupada.When i was with jayapataka swami he was very very different mood in his unique vision.He many times quickly initiated disciples ......I think he has 5 thousand disciples at least but probably a lot more than that!.........Yet my siksa guru tamala krishna goswami had approximately only 1000 solid disciples and he was generally alot more conservative about taking disciples as he matured.Even though far far less disciples he personally new many intimately.......with a different emphasis completely.Yet they were profficent together in servicing srila Prabhupadas mission..
Iskcon will grow exstensively soon and will have to accomadate tens of thousands of disciples naturally......who like myself will naturally seek more nourishment from the personally present guru .And yes some might infact become bigger and more powerful than the present iskcon society.Which has huge room to grow to become a world super power religion.Some individual guru will naturally become quite substantial in their potency and as a result might even out grow the iskcon body management structure ......however such empowered individuals will attempt to work with their god brothers and devotee freinds naturally.Or they might seek a management structure which although is outside iskcon.......is peacefully working to preach srila Prabhupadas mission.Devamritas team is an example of this.Some godbrothers of mine own , set up a substantial temple outside iskcon......but have decided because of new Iskcon management change..... these devotees have since decided to move back within the iskcon fold again.They built their temple and rightfully wanted to keep control over their preaching environment and temple....Personally i find it lacks personalism when we hope to restrain the future preachers from expressing themselves .......some will grow exponentially more than others.Some who have grown up within iskcon like my sons have huge advantages ,merely because they have chanted 16 rounds since 6 years of age.They are now 14 years old and have little of the bad conditioning which was symtomatic of my sad non- devotee background and child hood.They should naturally kick on!.

[quote][cite] sri_govinda_das:[/cite]
Iskcon will grow exstensively soon and will have to accomadate tens of thousands of disciples naturally......who like myself will naturally seek more nourishment from the personally present guru .And yes some might infact become bigger and more powerful than the present iskcon society.Which has huge room to grow to become a world super power religion.Some individual guru will naturally become quite substantial in their potency and as a result might even out grow the iskcon body management structure ......however such empowered individuals will attempt to work with their god brothers and devotee freinds naturally.Or they might seek a management structure which although is outside iskcon.......is peacefully working to preach srila Prabhupadas mission.[/quote]

I see it very much along the same lines. There is much good happening in Iskcon... and outside Iskcon as well. Many of SP disciples have matured very nicely and are his worthy successors.

Im asked to look at the current ISKCON and how scandal free and crime free it has become. So ... how many of the elected gurus have been caught with their pants down -- or who are on medication or who live like princes? You know -- rather than try to answer that question by comparing present day ISKCON with -- well, I guess the ISKCON that existed when Srila Prabhupada was present (and to even suggest that ISKCON has improved after Srila Prabhupada departed is beyond offensive -- its absurd) --- let me instead just give you a big picture sweeping response and here it is --- ISKCON ceased to exist after November 14, 1977. It ceased to exist when 11 of my godbrothers headed by Tamal announced that their ritvik status had transformed into full fledged diksha guru status. That was the end of ISKCON as we knew and loved it when Srila Prabhuapda was present. In his absence the usurping -- the great deviation and hoax -- had begun. After some time (after thousands of us could no longer tolerate the poisonous atmosphere created and if anybody spoke up or spoke out they were blacklisted, kicked out, shunned and even beaten -- or even killed) a so-called guru reform took place and suddenly by election gurus were springing up everywhere.

SO DON"T TELL ME THAT TODAYS ISKCON IS PURER OR BETTER OR BIGGER ... THAN IT ONCE WAS. THERE IS NO ISKCON TODAY, KIDS.

Yes, many of Srila Prabhupadas disciples have matured very nicely and are his worthy successors to preach Krishna consciousness from his teachings and books --- not to be rubber stamped, on-the-job training diksha gurus. Its all wrong. Its SO wrong. Its incredibly horribly terribly wrong and yet most of you here just cant see it because your eyes are wide shut. Im sorry for this and all I can do is try to tell you the truth. This isnt just me saying this. Those of you who joined ISKCON after 1977 only know the handful of Prabhupadas disciples who continued on in ISKCON but they are a small minority --- a tiny percentage of thsoe of us who left. Why did most of us leave? Ask yourself that? Do you have any idea how many wonderful Prabhupada disciples are existing in the ISKCON diaspora? Your vision is so limited to the propaganda that you so want to believe and so want to accept as being the plan and vision of Srila Prabhupada -- but sadly it IS NOT. It just is not. Im sorry to be the messenger with the bad news. When the acarys disappears his mission becomes chaotic and a dark cloud descends. Its nothing new and its actually prophetic. Krishna has an all good plan and everything will come out eventually but for now --- dont be telling me how terrific ISKCON is today based on numbers and dollars and disciples and whatever other data you have. That is not the criteria for success, what to speak of purity. There are some people participating on this website that are so in the dark its scary. Wake up! Jiv jago!

Okay -- who will be the first to unmask me and reveal the envious demon within? Come on --- load the ammunition. Hit me with your best shot -- fire away. Oh -- and by the way -- NO, I am not a ritvik person who believes the eleven should have continued initiating disciples on behalf of and for Srila Prabhupada. After his departure Srila Prabhupada remained available as siksa guru for everyone and for all time but he was no longer available to give diksha. But then -- what about initiating the newcomers. Well what about it? This is an eternal process. What was the big rush? Were we running an assembly line churning out Sanskrit names and three strands of neck beads to all who walked through the door of our centers? Srila Prabhupada didnt take formal initiation until many many years after he first met his guru maharaja. Meeting ones eternal diksha guru is a matter of the heart. By the mercy of the Lord one eventually comes into contact with his spiritual master and by the mercy of the guru the seed of bhakti is planted in his heart. Prabhupada wanted all of us to become leaders and even gurus but none of us were anywhere near ready nor qualified. Just by saying "I want you all to become clean" doesnt automatically make us clean. We have to first bathe properly.

Due to major deviations and the unrepentant and dishonest continuation of these deviations and disobedience of Srila Prabhupada --- your present day ISKCON is disqualified. That doesnt mean sincere souls arent finding Prabhupada through the centers and the literature but that is the incredible potency and magic of the pure devotee. People have found Krishna consciousness by picking a copy of Srimad-Bhagavatam out of the trash can at some airport. The credit wasnt with the trash can -- it was with the pure devotee and his sincere followers that the book found its way into the hands of a desiring and deserving soul. Please people -- open your eyes. I urge you for your own good and the good of all. If I have to rattle some cages its worth it if I can get one person to see whats going on and rather than be part of the problem -- become part of the cure. The Internet is a public place and this website is just one of so many that appear when a curious person -- or a seeker of the truth -- types a few words into his search engine. Thats why I am concerned with what is said here and I wlil go after the most vocal of you who are speaking what is not the truth of what went on and what is going on. To be wrong is one thing. To be loud and wrong is another.

[quote][cite] portnoy:[/cite]
SO DON"T TELL ME THAT TODAYS ISKCON IS PURER OR BETTER OR BIGGER ... THAN IT ONCE WAS. THERE IS NO ISKCON TODAY, KIDS. [/quote]

When was the last time you went to an Iskcon temple, sat with the devotees to take prasadam, talked to the sankirtan party coming back from the field, went out on the street with them on a harinam?

[quote][cite] portnoy:[/cite]
Due to major deviations and the unrepentant and dishonest continuation of these deviations and disobedience of Srila Prabhupada --- your present day ISKCON is disqualified. [/quote]

There were plenty of deviations and disobedience to Srila Prabhupada in pre 1977 Iskcon as well... still, it was Iskcon then, and it is Iskcon now - warts and all, good and bad. Srila Prabhupada hand picked all the leaders of Iskcon you now accuse of treason. Do you think he was wrong in every single case? ------------------ And tell me please, who started an assembly line churning out Sanskrit names and three strands of neck beads to people others (their godbrothers) thought less than qualified? Do you see any similarities? You should. ----------- I joined with my eyes open and I never closed them. I am not a current GBC cheerleader, but I try to see both good and bad in what people do.

Youre missing the point. Srila Prabhupada was, is and always will be a pure devotee of the Lord. You cant compare Srila Prabhupada accepting disciples and the accepting of disciples on the part of those who claim they are gurus by appointment or election. For some strange reason this crucial point -- the main thing -- seems to escape some of you. You want to talk in terms of shaved heads or expansion or think for some reason that whether I have recently gone to an ISKCON temple and sat down to eat has anything to do with anything. I guess Im just not getting through. Its like a brick wall that just wont give. Forget it. Youre right. I dont know jack. Alls well in ISKCON today. There is a catalog of gurus that newcomers can choose from and Srila Prabhupada is very pleased with all that is going on in his name. If you feel some need to think like that and argue with me then its your right as an independent living entity. I cant think and see for you. You need to see through the eyes of the Sastra and take advice from seniors --- but the problem is that the seniors you need to be hearing from are not scheduled to give Bhagavatam class tomorrow morning. Weve all been kicked out -- evicted from our fathers house by our very misdirected and ill-motivated godbrothers.

Well -- if it dont come out in the wash itll come out in the rinse and when it all hits the fan maybe youll remember some nut named Portnoy who told ya so.

Goodbye and Good Luck to all of you. Hare Krishna! All glories to Sri Sri Guru and Gauranga!

Hare Krsna. Sri Sri Guru Gauranga jayatah.

I am very sorry portnoy prabhu.....i never personally met srila Prabhupada.And yes my world might have been considerably different had i been his initiated disciple.However i am a follower of his disciples and even though my first guru bhavananda fall down....fortunately iskcon has provided me with several other wonderful gurus to take shelter of.Of which i am eternally grateful.As a representative of the next generation of followers i am not in a position to change how things turned out!....My intelligence tells me that many of iskcons current problems like the ritvikcontroversy is merely a natural reaction from the many godbrothers unable to fit within the corporate structure of the fast moving iskcon worldwide structure!
This it seems is the unfortunate case to which my dear Portnoy prabhu finds himself in.My generation are now 25-35 year devotees,many of whom are now in positions of management,which force us to make certain decisions on who should stay within the precincts of the temple preaching.....and who should remain outside!.Unfortunately mant senior devotees are unable to move within the present environment quickly enough or able to preach within the current preaching domain.There personal problems are indeed unimportant in the total picture,but are repeatedly brought out in the most inopportune moments.Exhibiting there immaturity and inability to comply with the present preaching mood of iskcon and sadly are no longer able to be non-envious in their veiws.Managers are then faced with the extremely differcult problem of removing older devotees .....because they seem intent on attacking their own spiritual masters preaching mission.This is the exact problem my generation is faced with.....much of this is of no creation of our service or our intentions.We are merely the next generation......But we merely accept what ever is favourable for our devotional service....and reject what ever is unfavourable in our humble attempts to please...Srila Prabhupada ....and his servants....your godbrothers....My dear portnoy prabhu......my many gurus.

We are however ferocious in our determination to carry on the mission of guru and gauranga,left by srila Prabhupada .And though we are your juniors we are infact mindful of how best to venture forth with sublime conviction and a brave spirit.Personally it is my veiw that iskcon is unable to accomadate those who are not intent on jettisoning their own veiws and important personal ideas presently.So they will sadly be reduced and sidelined ......as time waits for no man!However it is sri chaitanyas movement and it is my personal experience that he personally make room for us....or should we decide to veer off....in our own immature foolishness.He will make the arrangment for his eternal servant .....once he refocuses.....and humbly begs sri krishna chaitanya for the opportunity to preach again.......in the assembly of these younger and in many cases more sincere sadhus.

You still dont get it. ISKCON was sidelined in 1977 when Tamal led the charge and the zonal guru catastrophe ruined everything. He even admitted it to us in Topanga Canyon 30 years ago right after he was censured by his peers for making a move toward placing himself as the only -- or most important -- successor to Srila Prabhupada. He wanted the whole shebang -- wasnt satisfied with only one eleventh of the pie. Tamal and I were good friends. I was close with all of them. They were and are my brothers -- my alumni. With Tamal having a catharsis of honesty and atonement and after I had long talks with Rameswara who agreed with me that it was best just to admit that it was all a mistake, apologize and undo the damage as much as possible -- I thought there might be some hope. Unfortunately the status quo won the day and it was back to business as usual with stupid arguments about how many inches off the ground the vyasa asanas of the "new gurus" should be. It was all a horrible mistake and the lie just kept being perpetuated. Instead of being honest and inviting all thier godbrothers and sisters back they decided that they were too dug in and it was then that Rabinda Swarup came up with another concoction in an attempt to clean up the mess. Instead of cleaning and correcting, he and his cronies made a bigger mess. Your relative considerations about Bhavananda falling away but then another ISKCON guru came to save you are insane. Its all part of your imagination. By putting forth the nonsense that a diksha guru can be appointed, selected, elected .... automatically disqualifies them from jump street. Thats not how it works. Read the manual inside the package. You can have all the siksa gurus you want little kiwi guy but you need to get clear on what and who is a diksha guru -- what and who is an acarya -- how they manifest or emerge .... and stop all your show bottle talk about jettison preaching and more sincere sadhus in ISKCON today yada yada yada. You sound like a nutcase fanatic. Dont be afraid to think. What are you defending? Do you even know what youre talking about? You are the poster boy of the upa-ISKCON -- the shadow organization that goes by the name of ISKCON. The real ISKCON only exists in the hearts and minds of the diaspora comprised of Srila Prabhupadas sons and daughters who were evicted from our home unceremoniously and criminally. Maybe all this is over your head. Im sure you will just respond with the same rhetoric. You have the nerve to bully people like Baker and Rodney --criticizing and chastising them and telling them that they are insincere and have no faith and blah blah blah while you continue to plaster this website with your egotistical, narrow minded immature garbage. You really are an obnoxious son of a gun.

Tell you what ..... since I know youre going to come right back at me with more of the same --- Ill make this my last communication with you. In that way you can get the last word which you seem to have a need for in just about every single thread. By the way -- are you going for the Guinnses Book of World Records for posting on Pariprashnena?

Its a very pathetic and sadly sombre mood which you... portnoy prabhu wish us to accept.Personally though i never jioned or stayed in iskcon because of your sidelined iskcon theroy.Myself ....i read srila Prabhupadas books ,met my many siksa and diksa guru.I personally accepted them on their own spiritual merit......not on the fallacious bad arguments you offer!We personally are not inept ,we accepted the divine nature of the bhakti yoga process set down in the bhagavad gita.Which includes the disciplic succession,which sri Krishna personally sanctions.We have little time for your imagined real iskcon accept to say good luck .Fortunately we are servants whose genuine training means we accept what is handed down to us!Our duty is to preach ,perform sankirtan and eventually please our gurus.Srila Prabhupadas personal standard was that you can tell the tree by the fruit it bears!My guru....which gloriously includes His grace Tamala krishna goswami........the foremost disciple of srila Prabhupada have expanded this movement. Despite their own godbrothers .....sometimes envious sidelinedideas and other imaginative hallucinations.We ....iskcon are actually far greater as a preaching body...than when srila Prabhupada was personally present!....I recently personally counted 260 odd temples in the latest back to godhead magazine!...Any problems which you offer are between godbrothers and rightfully should stay in that context.However the fruits of the iskcon tree continue to multiply and grow!Hence we are sanctioned and will continue on......because sri krishna chaitanya is nourishing this movement and its wonderfully enthusiastic devotees.

There is no preaching force like the Acarya-Thakur. U have no idea!
Ysvt.

TKG might illuminate a room with his effugence.

Vaisnava-Thakur ROCKS the three worlds!

THIS IS THE MAJESTIC ASCENDENCY!

There is no comparison of the limited and the unlimited.

ONE FULL MOON!

Is another of Lord Chatanya moon
Rising soon? We pray!

Jaya Nityananda-Rama!

Hare Krishna!

There are so many Vaisnavas in ISKCON. Hard to imagine and it is all credit to His Divine Grace Srila Prabhupada.

ONE FULL MOON! This is Vaisnava-Thakur.

All r Vaisnava in Iskcon accordingly.

Only One Full Moon-The principle that is Sat-Guru.

THE MAJESTIC.

Ysvt.

[quote][cite] portnoy:[/cite]Youre missing the point. Srila Prabhupada was, is and always will be a pure devotee of the Lord. You cant compare Srila Prabhupada accepting disciples and the accepting of disciples on the part of those who claim they are gurus by appointment or election. [/quote]

What was so special about Prabupada accepting disciples he never knew, never met, never talked to, never chose a name for them, never chanted on their beads, never spoke Gayatri to them? It was Prabhupada who told the devotees to pick more initiating gurus as needed. The current voting system is based on his instruction. And many of the current gurus take a very good care of their disciples who are by and large happy with them. Fossils like you can complain all you want, but the sampradaya and Iskcon continue with or without you. All glories to the devotees of the Lord...

Sat guru just means a spiritual teacher, unlike teachers (gurus) of logic, music or astronomy. All true disciples of Prabhupada are true gurus by his mercy, just as he is a true guru by the order of Mahaprabhu.

Actually ccd prabhu......from my humble veiw piont there is a foremost disciple....His grace Tamala -krishna goswami.Because though he is not my diksa guru ,having read his glories being declared by srila Prabhupada....it appears self evident.But that is my humble opinion.But it is also the opinion of Indradumya maharaja and Hridyannanda maharaja....sataraja das and several other GBC members axccording to the back to godhead magazine printed on his passing.....however time will reveal everything in its divine wisdom!

[quote][cite] ccd:[/cite]Sat guru just means a spiritual teacher, unlike teachers (gurus) of logic, music or astronomy. All true disciples of Prabhupada are true gurus by his mercy, just as he is a true guru by the order of Mahaprabhu.[/quote]

To a degree that might be true. However Vaisnava-Thakur belongs to a special different category beyond insufficient guides.
Ysvt.

Vaisnava-Thakur means literary - worshipable devotee of Krishna. Of course some people think that their guru (because he is worshipable, or because he was very expert in one way or another) is the foremost and only guru. Now that is a dangerous, but understandable condition, usually a characteristic of a kanistha adhikari.

Acarya-Thakur is not only Guru but yes is the foremost." One SHOULD be intelligent enough....Uttama"

Yea,it is only when we can start coming off the Kanistha stage that we can become intelligent enough in this way. But as soon as we r qualified through desire etc immediately that topmost sufficient guidence will manifest. Like that!
Ysvt.

Kula Pavana writes:
What was so special about Prabupada accepting disciples he never knew, never met, never talked to, never chose a name for them, never chanted on their beads, never spoke Gayatri to them? It was Prabhupada who told the devotees to pick more initiating gurus as needed. The current voting system is based on his instruction. And many of the current gurus take a very good care of their disciples who are by and large happy with them. Fossils like you can complain all you want, but the sampradaya and Iskcon continue with or without you. All glories to the devotees of the Lord

Kula Pavana -- are you insane or just stupid? You really believe all that crap? You are hopeless. HOPELESS. How dare you pretend to know what Srila Prabhupada wanted? You are a brainwashed jackass. Jackass is the only word I can think of to describe a jackass like you. I didnt realize just how dumb some of you are. This website is crawling with idiots like yourself. Its unreal. Please shut this thing down. You are doing a GREAT disservice to the most confidential representative of the Supreme Being. Please -- I beg you -- whoever is in charge of this waste of cyberspace -- shut the thing down. Of the small handful of regulars (there are really only around a half dozen of you who actually hang out on this playground regularly -- day after day, week after week, year after year --- of the small group here the majority of you are absolute IDIOTS. I signed up to post when I noticed on Google a discussion you began here about whether Sampradaya Sun was a vehicle for aparadhas. Then I come here and get to know whos who and whats what and I see that this site is responsible for the most heinous aparadhas against Srila Prabhupada I have ever seen on the Internet. Shut it down. Do yourselves a favor and find a new hobby. CCD, Kula Pavana, sri-govinda-das -- these are the worst of the lot. Three year olds pretending to be college graduates. You three need to pull the plug on your computers immediately. Youre digging a hole so deep for yourselves that youll never be able to climb out of it if you persist in this way.

Please stop it. You are an embarrassment to the Gaudiya Vaisnava Sampradaya. If you need to engage in this mental masturbation then talk about politics or sports -- find something you might have some knowledge about.

[quote][cite] portnoy:[/cite] How dare you pretend to know what Srila Prabhupada wanted? You are a brainwashed jackass. [/quote]

I pretend to know just like you pretend to know. What makes you a better brainwashed jackass? do you have some sort of a patent on the correct interpretation? If so, please prove it. Prabhupadas instructions are being argued over by various groups of his followers, with each one claiming to be right.

I would say that anyone who say that he knows exactly what SP wanted is off. But there is no harm in saying "in my view, this is what Prabhupada wanted. So there is no need to argue, but suggesting that just because one was initiated by Prabhupada one knows somehow more then others is a lie.

[quote][cite] ccd:[/cite] All true disciples of Prabhupada are true gurus by his mercy, just as he is a true guru by the order of Mahaprabhu.[/quote]

Erroneous comparison. U have no idea.

[quote][cite] Nrsingha:[/cite][quote][cite] ccd:[/cite] All true disciples of Prabhupada are true gurus by his mercy, just as he is a true guru by the order of Mahaprabhu.[/quote]

Erroneous comparison. U have no idea.[/quote] So are you saying that order of Mahaprabhu is something minor? Or being a true disciple is less of a mercy? I wonder what is your idea.

Not by order alone is such Acaryas True Guru. UNCOMMON QUALIFICATION.

The actual Spiritual Master means Sakti-avesa-avatars by their very definition,fully enlightened beings awakened to the self etc.

Only a fully perfected sisya might be eligible for such comparison. ONE FULL MOON.

Great soul,very rare.

Confidential.

The rest can only act as guru or acarya in that role accordingly.

He whose only teaching is humility greater than that of a blade of grass, said-"By My command being guru save this land!" In this instance Mahaprabhu Himself has given the command. His command being "Perform the duty of the guru, even as I do it Myself. Also convey this command to whom-so-ever you chance to meet." Caitanyadeva says, "Tell them these very words, viz. By My command being Guru save this land. Deliver the people from their foolishness." - that is the qual of BSST

you are mistaken that SP wanted ONLY one moon...

11 November, 1967 to Brahmananda, "I do not want crowd of Kirtananandas but I want a single soul like Brahmananda, Mukunda, Rayarama, and Satsvarupa. The same example is always applicable that one moon is sufficient for the night as not thousands of stars...Without being empowered by Krishna, nobody can preach Krishna Consciousness. It is not academic qualification or financial strength which helps in these matters, but it is sincerity of purpose which helps us always. Therefore, I wish that you will remain in charge of New York, let Satsvarupa be in charge of Boston, Let Mukunda be in charge of San Francisco....

Ekas candras tamo hanti na ca tarah sahasrasah. One moon is complete to drive away the darkness of night, not millions of stars required. What these millions of stars can do? One moon is sufficient. So our propaganda is to create one moon. You see? But fortunately, by Krsnas grace, many moonlike boys and girls have come to me. You see? Many moons. (chuckles) I was thinking of having only one moon, but Krsna... I am hopeful that there are many moons, and in future theyll be doing very nice. This is para-upakara. To spread this Krsna consciousness movement is the best service to the humanity. Please try to understand this.

Please try to understand this.

Dear portnoy prabhu....unfortunately your miserly mentality is indeed the reason why many older devotees.....of your generation are virtually unnecessary and are unable to assimulate what is pleasing to srila Prabhupada any longer.You are indeed offensive to your own godbrothers.....such as kula-pavanna prabhu.As such you reveal yourself as a bitter and twisted...sad individuals,whose empathy ,compassion and spiritual intelligence have sadly vanished a very long ,.....long time ago!

But though you are inept....do not worry prabhu.Iskcons gurus are empowered!The sublime nature of srila Prabhupadfas legacy....His disciplic succession is indeed expanding!Your time is over now.....thank you for your many years of wonderful service.Because of your sacrifice prabhu.....we have literally many qualified gurus to take the future generations ....back home back to godhead!Forfilling the desire of his divine grace Srila Prabhupada and his wonderful GBC.

>Iskcons gurus are empowered

ISKCON guru is a dirty word, the four letter word, which means s**t.

>we have literally many qualified gurus to take the future generations ....back home back to godhead!

Bulls**t Srigovinda, your gurus are dying like a dog in crash, and their hearts and brains are failing, imo they are going to hell because of their offenses to all those devotees who spent the prime of their life in strengthening ISKCON but in the end got kicked out by these bogus gurus. These bogus pieces of crap can not deliver their followers.

Vikranta Prabhu ..... I can empathize with your righteous indignation. When I read inane comments from brainwashed cheerleaders like the above person who describes the deviations going on in ISKCON today as "the sublime nature of Srila Prabhupadas legacy" my blood curdles. My usurping hijacking misrepresenting deceitful godbrothers would be powerless if not for supplicating sycophants like him who take the name of my guru maharaja in vain.

One genius here referred to Srila Prabhupadas disciples as "fossils." He thinks hes on a grand march back to the spiritual world while slapping in the face the pure devotee of the Lord. I can just imagine somebody saying that to Srila Prabhupada -- that your disciples are fossils.

It never ceases to amaze me the power of the mind to delude a person. Of all the various websites I have come across concerning Krishna consciousness, ISKCON, Gaudiya Math, etc.... I find this particular place to be the worst when it comes to upstart neophyte neo-ISKCON fools. Not everybody here fits that description -- but the most vocal and prolific of the lot certainly do. These fellows are dangerous in that they have an audience (albeit quite small) that seems to inspire them to continue the farce of pretending they represent the teachings of and are carrying on the legacy of His Divine Grace Srila Prabhupada when nothing could be further from the truth.

I come here and try to expose the lies and protect and preserve the legacy .. and Im criticized for not being positive and encouraging. Ive pretty much given up. Im wasting my time here. Well -- maybe not. I think one or maybe even two of them have an open enough mind and heart to at least hear what Im saying without the programmed knee-jerk reaction thats expected among the "new disciples of the new gurus."

Know whats really ironic? There are a few here who came on board "as far back as 1980 or 1982" and they consider themselves the wise elder statesmen. Its all so sad. For thirty plus years Srila Prabhupadas ISKCON has been crippled. Its prophesized in the Bhagavatam that when the Acarya leaves the mission falls into chaos and the disciples are severely tested. Its all part of the divine plan of the Supreme Lord and His representatives. I see it as growing pains and I have faith that eventually everything will be resolved; however, for now I cant in good conscience recommend anyone to join an ISKCON temple. I recommend that they study Srila Prabhupadas writings, chant Hare Krishna and if possible find some folks either on the Internet or preferably in their area who are like-minded sincere and serious aspiring devotees. As I say -- its a very sad state of affairs, especially when people like the some of those found here pretend to be spokesmen for the founder acarya His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada.

Erroneous comparison.U have no idea!
..........................................................................................................................................................................................................................

"The Spirtual Master is acting in the position of Krsna because he is the most confidential servant of Krishna. Saktiavesa Avatara means he acts in the position of Krsna. He is very dear to Krsna. " Prabhupada letters 1977.



Please try to understand this.

The unique qualification of the Confidential Servant like BSST is not dime-a-dozen.like u would not believe.

NO MISTAKE, SP wanted an army of Vaisnavas that could not be defeated. First-class.

"Sincerity is unstoppable force" BSST.

"The Spirtual Master is acting in the position of Krsna because he is the most confidential servant of Krishna. Saktiavesa Avatara means he acts in the position of Krsna. He is very dear to Krsna. " Prabhupada letters 1977

There is no such a letter in Prabhupadas letters in 1977 or even anywhere in Vedabase and even if the typist said A spiritual master and it was not a word for word translation of Gurvastakam verse, still it does not prove that direct recorded words of SBBST are false. But back to false claims:: "Sincerity is unstoppable force" -- where does he say it? Let me know the place and circumstance. (if he actually said it and it is not something Sundarananda Vidyavinoda wrote).

Maybe it is better for you to stop cut and pasting fake quotes from ritivik sites and ACTUALLY study what acharyas said about it?

[quote][cite] portnoy:[/cite]
I come here and try to expose the lies and protect and preserve the legacy...[/quote]

You come here to have an audience, because in real life nobody cares to listen to anything you say.. That is my guess. You are yet another unemployed Pope, angry at the world for not recognizing your greatness.... -----------
It is not that all Prabhupada disciples are fossils... you are a fossil, because you do not learn, grow and develop, being stuck in your own highly edited and whitewashed past. The way you twist and misconstrue things on this forum is a proof of how your mind works. --------- The legacy of Prabhupada is in his disciples and in his books. If you want to preserve his legacy, get your own act together and INSPIRE people to be more Krsna conscious. This is what the good disciples of Prabhupada do, and this is why I respect them. I personally know hundreds of people who became devotees of Krsna thanks to the inspiration coming from disciples of Srila Prabhupada, and their devotional lives are still nurtured by these disciples. When you become such an inspiration to others, I will show you all respect you want and more. ---------- Any fool can criticize, but it takes a really good person to inspire others in devotional service.

[quote][cite] Vikranta:[/cite]>Iskcons gurus are empowered

ISKCON guru is a dirty word, the four letter word, which means s**t.[/quote]

You know all of them? You have met them all, talked to them, studied their actions, and this is now your conclusion? Or you are just repeating something a great sadhu told you after performing such an investigation? ---------- Our Acharyas say: '93Anyone who just once his life speaks the word '91Nityananda'92 becomes purified. He becomes My pure devotee'94 (Chaitanya Mangala, Madhya Khanda, Deliverance of Jagai and Madhai), and your conclusion is that one I quoted above? Shame on you... Yes, there are some Iskcon gurus I do not consider to be even remotely qualified for their job, but that is not a reason to think that they are ALL unqualified. I know some who are VERY qualified.

[quote][cite] ccd:[/cite]"The Spirtual Master is acting in the position of Krsna because he is the most confidential servant of Krishna. Saktiavesa Avatara means he acts in the position of Krsna. He is very dear to Krsna. " Prabhupada letters 1977

There is no such a letter in Prabhupadas letters in 1977 or even anywhere in Vedabase [/quote]

It is a composite quote from a 14 December, 1972 letter to Tusta Krishna: http://www.prabhupada1972.com/2007_12_09_archive.html#5953143351398115973

[quote][cite] Kula-pavana:[/cite][quote][cite] ccd:[/cite]"The Spirtual Master is acting in the position of Krsna because he is the most confidential servant of Krishna. Saktiavesa Avatara means he acts in the position of Krsna. He is very dear to Krsna. " Prabhupada letters 1977

There is no such a letter in Prabhupadas letters in 1977 or even anywhere in Vedabase [/quote]

It is a composite quote from a 14 December, 1972 letter to Tusta Krishna: http://www.prabhupada1972.com/2007_12_09_archive.html#5953143351398115973[/quote] Fake quote -- real quote states just the opposite:[br]
[br]

Regarding your questions in the letter of November 18, 1972, you have asked me if the spiritual master is ultimately Krishna, so the answer must be that if you think that way then everyone is Krishna. So why we should think like this? Saktyavesa Avatara means a living entity, but he is specially empowered. Not that he is Krishna. [br]
[br]

But on account of his exalted position he is honoured as much as Krishna. Not that he is Krishna. That is Mayavadi. He acts in the position of Krishna, but he is not Krishna, he is very dear to Krishna. That is explained: (here the verse was quoted: yasya prasadat bhagavata prasadat . . .) The spiritual master is acting in the position of Krishna because he is the most confidential servant of Krishna.
[br]
[br]

Your next question, after leaving this material realm does the devotee remain forever with his spiritual master? The answer is yes.
[br]
[br]

But I think you have got the mistaken idea in this connection. You speak of pure devotee, that he is saktyavesa avatara, that we should obey him only--these things are the wrong idea. If anyone thinks like that, that a pure devotee should be obeyed and no one else, that means he is a nonsense. We advise everyone to address one another as Prabhu. Prabhu means master, so how the master should be disobeyed?
[br]
[br]

Others, they are also pure devotees. All of my disciples are pure devotees. Anyone sincerely serving the spiritual master is a pure devotee, it may be Siddhasvarupa or others, a-Siddhasvarupa. This must be very clearly stated. It is not only that your Siddhasvarupa is a pure devotee and not others. Do not try to make a faction.

Yes,neither minimise nor maximize. No factions!

"Fanaticism,merely over-compensated doubt." -Carl Jung.

[quote][cite] ccd:[/cite] Fake quote -- real quote states just the opposite...[/quote]

The quote is not exactly fake. I called it a composite quote because it is composed from sentences actually spoken by Prabhupada, but not in that order, and where the context has been edited out and arguably altered. ------------ The people who make such composite quotes are the same ones who throw a tantrum whenever any editing is done to Prabhupadas books. They obviously believe that "the end justifies the means", at least when it comes to them.

Yes,Sat-Guru means Avesa-avatara.

"Plenary incarnation of Krsnas sakti"

Via-medium.

Ysvt.

[quote][cite] Nrsingha:[/cite]Yes,neither minimise nor maximize. No factions!

"Fanaticism,merely over-compensated doubt." -Carl Jung.[/quote] Another incomplete quote. This particular quote is: "As a defence against doubt, the conscious attitude grows fanatical. For fanaticism, after all, is merely overcompensated doubt." -- any other quotes from analytical physiology? When will we grow dave?

Yes,fanaticism, overcompensated doubt. Quite insightful observation of the conditioned nature. Isnt it!
Ysvt.

My dear vikrant...i am sorry that you are no longer submissive to krishnas divine will.Actually i am not talking from some neophyte ....pie in the sky,fuzzy warm bullsh*t position.Actually i had my diksa guru fall down.He was bhavananda das....Now i am very proud of him because he is still attempting to serve his guru...even now.Personally i have seen many tragic things within and outside of iskcon! I am presently 49 years old ,and after fifteen odd years as a brahmacari....i decided to get married because within the ashram....i was all alone!So now i am presently taking my sons on sankirtan ...to hopefully train them personally how to associate with krishna while doing a christmas marathon!Having just finished for the day.....i am tired and thrilled that my son and i have been three weeks on the road together!However even if your guru falls you have no excuse in my humble opinion to find fault,because you should follow the sastra.Which informs us to take shelter of older experienced devotees.Whose opinions should be appreciated and in some cases worshipped!Actually if you are sincere and continue your service krishna reciprocates with you personally.As he has done on many ,many wonderfully sweet moments,when i truly looked for his mercy and personal guidance.Actually even when your diksa guru falls.....you have hundreds of siksa guru within iskcon! As in my case i learned the actual sastra in a more detailed explicit manner pertinent to my personal situation.....and carried on!Now personally i am practically fearless!Actually most devotees i meet are wrongly appreciating our bhagavat....archarya line ,especially the younger devotees fail to understand the signifigance of srila Bhaktisiddanta saraswati s takuras contribution and vision.His unique mood is that one should appreciate that it is not factually a diksa line.....in his veiw it is a siksa bhagavat line.As srila Shridhara swami comments it is a transmission of substance over merely form.This means that he ....SRILA BHAKTISIDDANTA SARASWATI MAHARAJA personally was inclined to minimize ,and on occasion reject his previous sampradaya diksa gurus because he saw they offered little.

My humble opinion fashioned which has been fashioned on thirty years of sankirtan is that krishna is extremely hard to serve progressively.We fail to understand that he is the supreme autocratic person......As srila Bhaktisiddanta sraswati Prabhupada comments in his sweet version of the Brahma samitha.To actually be progressive and develop transcendental qualities is best accomplished by the association of advanced devotees!Learning to only see the good within others......even amidst the most horrific and disturbing circumstances is essential to develop a first rate non-envious character and nature.....eventually we should start to our own immense faults.....to start to be spotless in nature ....and merciful in our desire to preach.At least that is my present appreciation.

[quote][cite] Nrsingha:[/cite]Yes,fanaticism, overcompensated doubt. Quite insightful observation of the conditioned nature. Isnt it!
Ysvt.[/quote] I dont know -- I quite like Prabhupadas "Religion without philosophy is sentiment, or sometimes fanaticism" -- it is interesting that in Adi.7.68 Prabhupada translates bhAvuka as a fanatic (actually it also means a crazy man or sentimentalist).

[quote][cite] sri_govinda_das:[/cite]So now i am presently taking my sons on sankirtan ...to hopefully train them personally how to associate with krishna while doing a christmas marathon!Having just finished for the day.....i am tired and thrilled that my son and i have been three weeks on the road together![/quote]

This is very inspiring, prabhu! My heart grows listening to stories like that. All glories to the sankirtan devotees of the Lord! :)

[quote][cite] ccd:[/cite][quote][cite] Nrsingha:[/cite]Yes,fanaticism, overcompensated doubt. Quite insightful observation of the conditioned nature. Isnt it!
Ysvt.[/quote] I dont know -- I quite like Prabhupadas "Religion without philosophy is sentiment, or sometimes fanaticism" -- it is interesting that in Adi.7.68 Prabhupada translates bhAvuka as a fanatic (actually it also means a crazy man or sentimentalist).[/quote]
Yea,someone immature in his sadhana.

[quote][cite] sri_govinda_das:[/cite]Actually if you are sincere and continue your service krishna reciprocates with you personally.As he has done on many ,many wonderfully sweet moments,when i truly looked for his mercy and personal guidance.Actually even when your diksa guru falls.....you have hundreds of siksa guru within iskcon! As in my case i learned the actual sastra in a more detailed explicit manner pertinent to my personal situation.....and carried on!Now personally i am practically fearless![/quote]

I see practical service as the essence of love - the love for Krsna, the love for our guru and other Vaishnavas, the love for our family and people in general. It is something that cant be faked. Over the years I have met many devotees like your good self, who thanks to their sincere service for many years have developed amazing insight, purity, and devotional maturity. This is what works - service. I know devotees who over the years had 3 gurus that fell down - yet, amazingly, they never gave up Krsna consciousness and continued their service. Thank you for sharing with us your realizations!

> bhAvuka as a fanatic (actually it also means a crazy man or sentimentalist).
N-dave: Yea,someone immature in his sadhana.

Nope, just the opposite, Krishnadasa Kaviraja is playing with words see: muhur aho rasikA bhuvi bhAvukA

>You know all of them? You have met them all, talked to them, studied their actions, and this is now your conclusion?

There is no need to know all of them. It is not even possible to know all of them, they are too many, hundreds. If you know a dozen, that is enough to draw the conclusion, they are more or less same.

>Shame on you...

There is no reason for shame to come on me. Shameful are Srila Prabhupada and Srila Bhaktisidhanta Saraswati who fought with Jati Gosains and mercifully opened the treasurehouse of vedic knowledge for all sudras and malechas. But these bogus gurus are letting them down by making business out of it.

We will never know if Srila Prabhupada was poisoned or not but it is true that he expressed his doubt that he was poisoned. A guru doubting his disciples speaks volumes. Now you can write hundreds of books my this master and that master, and make up stories how nice the relationship was but in reality relationship was that there was no trust, and guru even had doubt that these power hungry, anxious to be gurus might have poisoned him. That was the reality. So shame on whom. On you and your bogus gurus.

> It is not even possible to know all of them, they are too many,

Okay you were caught. At least say how many please and we will let you off the hook and leave you finish your guesswork in private.

No,it is this immaturity in sadhana that breeds this defensive fanaticism. Like dogs barking. The more advanced devotees would not waste so much of there time in that way. More and more absorbed in higher taste which can resolve more all angles of vision.
Not spending half of lives defending one,clouded by our egoic mental position. The mainstay of our enjoyment coming from the defense of such. This is general principle,conditioned nature. Should be just a stage,neophytish or something.

First we be conscious and admit.

Of course if we r not increasing, in 10,15 years exactly the same. No growth. This is the potential of pathetic waste. SO THERE HAS TO BE SOME VOLUNTARY TAPASYA TO AVERT THIS. The road less travelled. " Be surprised at the ones who stay."
God help us! KRSNA PROTECT US FROM THIS STAGNATION! WE HAVE NO IDEA!!

I am sure u will change ur tune when u see my other post. Case in point.

That was quick! ;-). Watch out for the knee jerk defensiveness. (deleted post :))Spiritual life is not based on this.
Oh,we r suffering so much. This is not Guru Tattva at all. Unhealthy.

[quote][cite] Vikranta:[/cite]
There is no need to know all of them. It is not even possible to know all of them, they are too many, hundreds. If you know a dozen, that is enough to draw the conclusion, they are more or less same.
[/quote]

I know some good ones, and I know some bad ones. My conclusion is that it is not all one... I judge each one of them separately by their activities and results. ------------------- A guru is judged by his disciples. If all Prabhupadas senior disciples are a failure as you say, what does that say about him and his mission? Was he a coach that put together the worst possible team? -------------- Too bad he apparently did not recognize his true disciples who are now the ritvikvada leaders (all two or three of them). If he only made THEM the leaders, Iskcon would have taken over the world by now... You guys are such a joke...

Having given you the benefit of doubt vikrant ....now you reveal yourself as merely a blasphemer ....and foolish to boot.Actually since i have jioned iskcon ,which was august...1979 in sydney ...Australia,the society has dramatically increased both in temples,general temple numbers and its huge worldwide preaching scope and practical vision.We used to have no reasonable temples.....just a few genuine devotees.Such sincere Prabhupada disciples encouraged us and we attempted to please our siksa gurus whom continually blessed us every day during their bhagavatam classes.....we were willing to do practically anything to push on this Iskcon society.Such surrendered mood and sublime submission impelled sri krishna chaitanya to respond by enabling us to spread this hare krishna movement dramatically.We used to have 20 to 50 guests in our temple .Now every sunday we receive a minimum of 120 guests.Usually 200 -400 every sunday.50 are regular indian devotees whom have accepted initiation from present iskcon gurus.They are very sincere and appreciate the authentic nature of our preaching mood,since they now are finding the western Maya society severely unattractive in nature.

Actually preaching needs after ten or twenty years of genuine service results in ....substantial temples.In our yatra christchurch is steady....wellington is dynamically growing.They have purchased a temple and have a wonderful restaurant,which is called higher taste. Which serves prasadam to 500 to 1000 persons a week.Making the environment auspicious for preaching.Being the capital of new Zealand it regularly serves important politicians.Whom are very favourable to our krishna concious movement.Hamilton temple is a solid temple consisting of several hundred devotees and families.Auckland yatra has a wonderful temple which easily sits 400-500 guests for the sunday feast program.Though the devotee numbers have seriously dwindled for senior devotees....there is a real enthusiasm for all the new devotees whom sri krishna is sending along regularly.Hence hundreds come every week...with festival numbers exploding to thousands .Several times at least twenty thousand guests came to janmastami.

We do have a real problem in keeping the real long term devotees,which are really presently under valued ,,,,,,,.In my humble opinion they are the real genuine and sincere souls whom krishna has blessed after the many preaching battles they have been involved in ......however we fail to truly protect such persons in the total war on maya senario.Possibly iskcon has failed to cement their loyalty ....by reciprocating in more meaningful ways,however hopefully we will adjust to look after our many siksa gurus more adequately.However this ISKCON society at least in my part of the world has matured wonderfully.....and it will indeed continue seriously expanding.

My godbrothers some are infact accepting disciples now!They are elderly ....some in their sixtys are very sincere and mature in devotional service.Some have been devotees for their whole lives naturally follow regulative principles and have their small group of disciples ....So everything is smoothly going on!...Despite the sad and rather pathethic innuendo and blaspheme which such non-devotees like yourself ..vikrant poster in your sad attempts to attack sri chaitanya mahaprabhus movement,.....the dogs may bark ,but the caravan will indeed carry on back home.... back to godhead.

[quote][cite] Nrsingha:[/cite]
Oh,we r suffering so much. This is not Guru Tattva at all. Unhealthy.[/quote]

I mean by this in relation to the some disciples mentalities and our sometimes childish football team like possessiveness. Like me with HG Aindra maybe for example. Not the Guruh.
Ysvt.

>A guru is judged by his disciples

This is your bogus philosophy taught to you by your bogus gurus to condemn Srila Prabhupada. So that they can replace him. Srila Prabhupada is throwing the seed, it is natural that some seeds will fall on the stone and will die. No need to blame him for that. Depends on the soil.

>..the dogs may bark ,but the caravan will indeed carry on back home.... back to godhead.

Back to bulls**t head. Poison the guru, die in car crash and become ghost. Back to godhead for bogus gurus and bogus disciples, my foot.

Vikranta, youre talking nonsense. Guru doesnt throw seeds while accepting disciples. Thatd disqualify him as a genuine guru. There is a prescribed mutual one-year testing period as per HBV 1.73-75.
This parable refers to a preacher.

Yes vikranta .....you are no longer a devotee!But hopefully krishna will allow you back into the association of real preachers,eventually let him be merciful to you!.....One old freind of mine blasphemed like you do.....His name was Rasika das,he was always struggling with the four regulative principles.....He also started blaspheming other servants of radha ,one day several years latter i was on sankirtan.I approached a whore house,when all of a sudden a skinny young woman started yelling and screaming at me......F#ckin...haris....ect@ect..Get the hell out of here!Shocked and caught off gaurd,i simply took my oil paintings and left.However looking back at her i realised though that it was infact my brahmacari godbrother.....Rasika das.But now he was in a female body with breasts!Stunned and shocked i just stopped there with my mouth wide open ......simply unable to comprehend the hell he had infact entered into...within this life!He had become a whore!......just see how far you will indeed drop to with your demoniac criticism....this also will await you vikrant unless you beg for forgiveness!

>.His name was Rasika das,

There are many stories like that. Once I met a devotee who was mentally unstable. I asked other devotees of his temple why he is like that. They told me that he used to be a normal person. But once he was travelling with a Guru and they were going from one city to another and crossing a forest. Guru became upset with him on the way and asked him to get down from the car. And he had to walk back to the city. It took him a day and night and he ate some wild fruits there when he became hungry. And since that time he has this mental problem.

Why your friend Rasika became like that? You blame Rasika for that. I blame bogus gurus for that. There are many devotees who have been used as slaves by bogus gurus and are mentally unstable after 15-20 years of devotional service and bogus chelas like you will use philosophy to blame these devotees. You will attack these poor people either by your karma philosophy. You will say it is their past karma. Shame on you and your bogus gurus.

Vikranta -- youre dealing with not just blockheads here -- they are cinderblockheads. I tried and I gave up. Stubborn like mules -- totally bought into the lies like good little brainwashed cheerleaders and they throw the "aparadha" weapon at anyone who tries to wake them up. Better yet -- you get blamed for not being a nice pleasant encouraging fellow. I saw my spiritual master Srila Prabhupada become angry like a lion on so many occasions at imposters, cheaters, his students who failed to protect the integrity of his teachings when some godbrother(s) twisted the philosohy into a pretzel. Oh -- but getting angry and ranting about bogus gurus means were yucky people and believe me they will wear you down -- these morons, especially the two chief jackasses named kulapavana and srigovindadas. I mean - where did these two come from? In all my days (and Im talking forty years plus as a student and disciple of my guru maharaja) I have never come across two like these guys. It would be comical if not for the fact that they continue to invoke the name of the purest of the pure -- His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada. Thats what really gets to me -- that they dare to use his name to support their foolishness. The greatest irony of all is that they sit in their chairs at their computers and point away, declaring that this one and that one is a blasphemer while they are the greatest offenders at the holy lotus feet of His Divine Grace.

I wish you the best Vikranta. Maybe you can get through to one or two of the more passive observers here. That would make it all worthwhile. I found it too frustrating and infuriating.

[quote][cite] portnoy:[/cite] I tried and I gave up. Stubborn like mules -- totally bought into the lies like good little brainwashed cheerleaders and they throw the "aparadha" weapon at anyone who tries to wake them up. [/quote]

It does not look like you gave up yet... and you yourself use the aparadha weapon all the time. Every time you think someone is not respectful enough towards your guru, Srila Prabhupada, you scream aparadha! like a little girl, all the time insulting other Vaishnavas, even (or especially) when they happen to be gurus of anybody participating in this discussion. ---------- while you may not have run into anybody like me, I have met plenty of people like you - every two bit ritvik I ever met sounds exactly like you.

Actually his rasika das was a good devotee at the start,however he started finding fault ....little by little because he was unable to follow the devotional process.....he started comtemplating the objects of sense gratification.Eventually he started criticising the authoritys and was asked to leave .However after leaving devotional service he actually fell down to the lowest demoniac level ....taking drugs and eventually was destroyed in his offensive self destructive behaviour unfortunately.Such is the result of aparadhas against other devotees.Both Portnoy and vikrant are also following the similar path.....very quickly they are rejected from non-envious association,and became further implicated in the illsionary world of mayadevi.Which is necessary to keep krishnas premier preaching vehicle free from contamination.Actually krishna is rejecting them!Such persons next step because they are unable to remain in Srila Prabhupadas movement is to seek mental shelter in illusionary imaginative forums like the ritvik sahaja group.

You can tell the tree by the fruit it bears,,,,,,,similarly we can see the results of your preaching portnoy and vikrant you .You are unable to positively preach.Actually in our humble yatra,recently we have had two ecstatic Rathyatra festivals.One which was the first rath cart festival in our national capital ...Wellington city New Zealand .The second was in Auckland city which tens of thousands witnessed.Both had hundreds of our devotees participating ....in the auckland cart festival it was with at least 5oo congregational members and supporters.So despite the negative attitudes and behaviour of the envious few if we keep our eyes on the goal we will succeed.Having just about completed my humble service training up my sons and daughter in a marathon environment i can humbly report a wonderful increase in our service as a family unit.Hopefully sri sri radha giridhari will be pleased and further bless my sons and daughter and the sincere other paraphenalia and book distributors.....your servant .

Factually though Iskcon has grown exponentially even though serious problems remain to be solved by the next generation of senior devotees and vaisnavas.With such a diverse and huge growth naturally appearing due to the sincere efforts of those who have stayed loyal to their iskcon gurus and srila Prabhupadas legacy we have a changing devotional environment manifesting before our eyes.Previously the indian community played an almost passive role.....now in our temples they are taking responsibility and harbouring much of the preaching responsibility.Especially those whom have come recently to migrate ....are surprised to see krishna conciosness so well accepted in our truly multi- cultural society.Extremely well respected and accepted as a natural part of new Zealand society.Christmas day we took our temple to mission bay and held a harinam and bhajan kiratan on the huge beach and grass park.An ecstatic freindly day .....which went on for 5hours and cemented our favourable acceptance by all communities present.Notably the chinese,korean youth who played soccer literally for several hours.The moslem afghani peoples,local greek and arab peoples whom were originally the single off beat foreign influence.But whom fade into the backgound due to sri chaitanyas dynamic preaching team as they lead ecstatic kirtan ....after ecstatic kirtan

Such a brilliant day was matched by the first solid summers day......the beach was filled with thousands of holiday revelers and local europeans sometimes curiously interested by the intensity and multi-cultural nature of our kirtan group which numbered roughly 60 fulltime devotees.Tilak and sari bedecked women wonderfully looking respendent almost from vaikuntha.

Sorry but this internet forum as a medium is so very mundane compared to such truly ecstatic preaching events which continue for those whom krishna blesses through his senior preachers.At the beach event was sri Prahladananda maharaja and several prabhupada disciples whom everyone was keen to attempt to serve when prasadam was served.Hence such envious sad individuals......such as vikrant and portnoy prosper only in their own polluted minds eye.While for the rest of us whom krishna has empowered the sankirtan party has just begun ......for the last thirty or so years .And shows little sign of diminishing or abating due to the sincerity of srila Prabhupadas empowered parampara representatives.....

Of course this is my personal opinion and vision backed up by the generally successful preaching within the south pacific yatra and my own experiences.But now that i am one of the senior devotees .....at least by years ,if not by any devotional merit ,i have no doubt Iskcon is safely strong enough to wether any small insignifigant irritations such misled individuals like vikrant and portnoy can imagine they seriously represent.We actually have little time to take their inept claims seriously because we are preaching!

In any debate the first question should be -- are you an ISKCON leader? If the answer is yes -- there is nothing to talk about -- the guy is off. If the answer no, why would you debate with someone who is not even a leader, he must agree with you. I have met one Prabhuji who refused to answer this question... I will never talk to him again.