Pariprashnena — Q&A Archive

I think that any such proof is in the eye of the beholder. Scriptures (and sadhus) aim to bring us closer to God, so that we can experience Him for ourselves, thus proving His existence in our individual case.

They describe various paths to the ultimate proof in the form of divya pratyaksa, direct experience of Krsna as Brahman, Paramatma or Bhagavan. But one cant say if thats true without taking those paths and reaching the goal. So back to the proof of the pudding...

muc0u257 yu257 -mugdha ju299 vera nu257 hi svatahu803 kru803 su803 nu803 a-j'f1u257 na
ju299 vere kru803 pu257 ya kailu257 kru803 su803 nu803 a veda-puru257 nu803 a

TRANSLATION

"The conditioned soul cannot revive his Kru803 su803 nu803 a consciousness by his own effort. But out of causeless mercy, Lord Kru803 su803 nu803 a compiled the Vedic literature and its supplements, the Puru257 nu803 as.

u347 u257 stra-guru-u257 tma-ru363 pe u257 panu257 re ju257 nu257 na
kru803 su803 nu803 a mora prabhu, tru257 tu257 '97 ju299 vera haya j'f1u257 na

TRANSLATION

"The forgetful conditioned soul is educated by Kru803 su803 nu803 a through the Vedic literatures, the realized spiritual master and the Supersoul. Through these, he can understand the Supreme Personality of Godhead as He is, and he can understand that Lord Kru803 su803 nu803 a is his eternal master and deliverer from the clutches of mu257 yu257 . In this way one can acquire real knowledge of his conditioned life and can come to understand how to attain liberation.

While pramana of scriptural evidence is often the only evidence accepted to the nature of God --what protestants claim: Sola scriptura -- is not a factual or logical statement, and in fact a false statement. All Christian scriptures were formed some 4 centuries after Christ. Thus at a point, from their own point of view, there was no scripture but was "Christian faith" -- this alone proves the Sola scriptura of Protestants is false. It formed in an opposition to the Catholic prima scriptura. Sola scriptura rejects any original infallible authority, other than the scripture, The Catholic prima scriptura includes the general revelation by the way of creation, the tradition, mystical insight, angelic visitations etc., that are excluded if you subscribe to Sola scriptura concept. (new-borns are rudimentary protestants).

All of it is quite opposite to the principle of guru-sadhu-sasra that we follow, under this principle there are may ways to arrive to understanding of the existence of God. But it is childish to argue about the "existence" of God. God gives free will to all residents of this world to never be convinced by logic, scripture or others faith. It is our free will that is part of the solution rather than the problem. However by the mercy of a devotee bhagavata we are able to enter into the faithful hearing of the book Bhagavata and that is the beginning of the proof is in the taste of the podding". Bhagavata is the ultimate solution to all these rudimentary arguments. Why argue about existence, seek the love of Godhead.

> All Christian scriptures were formed some 4 centuries after Christ

canonized

[quote][cite] ccd:[/cite]But it is childish to argue about the "existence" of God.[/quote]

I dont mean to be daft, I would just like to explore this line of reasoning:[br]

[br]Why is it childish to argue about the existence of God?[br]

[br]I would imagine that arguments about the existence of God only become pertinent if there is some conviction that God is or might be evil, or that we have to "get it right" in this one lifetime, or we will burn in hell for all eternity with no chance of redemption; or if there is some conviction that God is or might be good but powerless.[br]

[br]Otherwise, if there is some conviction that God is magnanimous and always helping, that suffering pertains to the material, that we are not actually the material, that we can all elevate ourselves spiritually if we follow a particular process, and that we have infinite time to do that, then arguments about Gods existence dont seem so pertinent anymore.[br]

[br]Although there are also those who believe that suffering pertains to the material, that we are not actually the material, that we can all elevate ourselves spiritually if we follow a particular process, and that we have infinite time to do that, but that God plays no role in all this.[br]

[br][quote]God gives free will to all residents of this world to never be convinced by logic, scripture or others faith.[/quote]

I am finding this really strange - that becoming convinced by logic, scripture or others faith could be a matter of free will.

What is the explanation that becoming convinced by logic, scripture or others faith is a matter of free will?
What is it about us that becoming convinced by logic, scripture or others faith is a matter of free will?

Its childish because arguments (anumana) are inconclusive (tarko pratisthah).

> I am finding this really strange - that becoming convinced by logic, scripture or others faith could be a matter of free will.

What is your idea and its explanation?

A simpler approach...

If the president says something and it is written down and I read about it, isnt that proof of the existence of the president?

[quote][cite] deena:[/cite]A simpler approach...

If the president says something and it is written down and I read about it, isnt that proof of the existence of the president?[/quote]

Not for a modern day person born and bred in a society where it is a given to doubt the veracity and validity of any public figure or authority ... Who _really_ believes politicians? We often hear about how the speeches of many politicians and others are written by professional writers and not the politicians themselves, or how this or that politician or person in authority is a puppet in the hands of some other party or company or something suspicious.[br]

[br]In other words, many of us generally expect that those in position of some authority will cheat us or use it against us; many of us have an inherent mistrust for anyone in position of authority.[br]

[br]So when for the purpose of a theistic discussion, analogies from the worldly system of government are used, in some listeners, this can bring in those inherent issues of mistrust that get transferred onto God. I suppose this a sign of kali-yuga, when the world becomes so corrupt that it cannot even halway provide analogies without also bringing in negative connotations. I wonder if there is a way around that, and for a theistic discourse to use a language abstract and general enough to avoid such problems.

[quote][cite] Baker:[/cite][quote][cite] ccd:[/cite]But it is childish to argue about the "existence" of God.[/quote]

I dont mean to be daft, I would just like to explore this line of reasoning:[br]

[br]Why is it childish to argue about the existence of God?[br]
[/quote]
You are not daft. You are intelligent. But if someone argues that God does not exist and you argue that He does it is chlidish, while there are arguments, the reliance on the argument is shallow.
[br] [br]
Free will is the basis of your choice -- this choice is the result of love of God or hatred of God. It is your choice. Logic is foundationless. You can be convinced by logic in your understanding, but not in your desire to practice bhakti. Desire has nothing to do with a logical explanation, it is on the level of vijnana, or realization.

[quote][cite] VEDA:[/cite]Its childish because arguments (anumana) are inconclusive (tarko pratisthah).

[br]> I am finding this really strange - that becoming convinced by logic, scripture or others faith could be a matter of free will.

[br]What is your idea and its explanation?[/quote]

[br]That becoming convinced should happen in some objective manner which we have no influence upon. For as soon as we have influence on our thought-processes, these processes and their results become invalidated because of our various biases, esp. cognitive and memory biases (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_cognitive_biases, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Memory_bias).[br]
[br]For a conviction to be valid, it has to be beyond biases.[br]

[br]I think the above is a hopeless, paralyzing outlook, but at the same time, I see no way to overcome it or a better alternative to it.

> For a conviction to be valid, it has to be beyond biases.

Exactly the point. Not only that -- the logic alone by its nature is deficient because it is axiomatic or limited. It is not about the objectivity, its about the limited nature of logic itself. While you can expect logical explanation as to the all-pervaiding nature of God, it is not sufficient to convince you as to the nature of your relationship with God, for this you need to have a personal interaction with a bhakta who has bhakti residing in the heart. Not everything is cold and rational, but everything can be explained in cold and rational terms.

[quote][cite] Baker:[/cite][quote][cite] deena:[/cite]A simpler approach...

If the president says something and it is written down and I read about it, isnt that proof of the existence of the president?[/quote]

Not for a modern day person born and bred in a society where it is a given to doubt the veracity and validity of any public figure or authority ... Who _really_ believes politicians? We often hear about how the speeches of many politicians and others are written by professional writers and not the politicians themselves, or how this or that politician or person in authority is a puppet in the hands of some other party or company or something suspicious.[br]

[br]In other words, many of us generally expect that those in position of some authority will cheat us or use it against us; many of us have an inherent mistrust for anyone in position of authority.[br]

[br]So when for the purpose of a theistic discussion, analogies from the worldly system of government are used, in some listeners, this can bring in those inherent issues of mistrust that get transferred onto God. I suppose this a sign of kali-yuga, when the world becomes so corrupt that it cannot even halway provide analogies without also bringing in negative connotations. I wonder if there is a way around that, and for a theistic discourse to use a language abstract and general enough to avoid such problems.[/quote]

The statement of the person is still proof of their existence, regardless of whether or not people are suspicious of them. Just like this statement written by me and read by you is proof of my existence. Is it not? Please say yes. I hate to find out I dont exist.

These biases are summarized in the four fallacies of a baddha jiva. All theistic traditions teach that such a jiva cant liberate himself on his own but needs an external help in the form of Bhagavan-person, Bhagavan-book and bhakta/guru who enables access to them, either directly or indirectly (thru ajnata sukriti). To accept this help one needs free will.
Otoh, a passive waiting for enlightenment (to avoid ones fallacious involvement) doesnt work.
You still didnt read the Suhotra Swamis book.

[quote][cite] VEDA:[/cite]
You still didnt read the Suhotra Swamis book.[/quote] Do you have an online version?

[quote][cite] VEDA:[/cite]These biases are summarized in the four fallacies of a baddha jiva. All theistic traditions teach that such a jiva cant liberate himself on his own but needs an external help in the form of Bhagavan-person, Bhagavan-book and bhakta/guru who enables access to them, either directly or indirectly (thru ajnata sukriti). To accept this help one needs free will.
Otoh, a passive waiting for enlightenment (to avoid ones fallacious involvement) doesnt work.
You still didnt read the Suhotra Swamis book.[/quote]

I have read his summary essay "Doubt and Certainty In Krishna Consciousness" (I really liked it, by the way). I have his book "Substance and shadow" too. But I hesitate reading it, and perhaps you can help me with that, please.[br]

[br]Namely, I feel very much uncomfortable and ashamed that I should have to study philosophy and meta-aspects of belief in God and spiritual practice like that. I have this conviction that I should be able to accept and understand the topics of Krishna consciousness without such study. You have probably seen the way Sri Govinda Das has criticized me here, that I am "too mental", "set in my ways" and so on. I have a very strong inner voice that tells me such things most of the time as well. Most of the devotees I have met are like that too.[br]

[br]There is also the fact that I am in a female body. Many devotees have the conviction that females do not understand philosophy, or can, at most, understand it only in a very limited sense, and that they might as well stay away from philosophy altogether. I dont know how much I should accept this conviction and act on it if I am to associate with devotees and perhaps become one.[br]

[br]Moreover, I am well aware that I am way out of your league. I am not young anymore, nor do I have many resources in terms of intelligence, time and money. And that therefore, I need to rethink whether it is worth it or reasonable for me to invest in pursuing associacion with people for which I will most likely not qualify. That instead, I should not "aim too high", and should just try to adapt to the devotees it is actually possible for me to associate with, even if they are not exactly to my liking.[br]

[br]But I am finding myself unable to decide about these things.[br]

[quote][cite] ccd:[/cite][quote][cite] VEDA:[/cite]
You still didnt read the Suhotra Swamis book.[/quote] Do you have an online version?[/quote]

http://www.suhotraswami.net/library/Substance_and_Shadow.pdf

[quote][cite] ccd:[/cite]> For a conviction to be valid, it has to be beyond biases.

Exactly the point.[/quote]

Allright, but what does one do and think in the meantime, until one reaches the state beyond bias?[br]
[br]What "bridging attitudes" or "temporary morality/philosophy" should one employ?[br]
[br]Or should one think "Okay, Ill just grit my teeth and move on until I reach the goal, ignoring all doubts, questions, and considerations that may occur to me in the meantime."[br]

[br]Also, isnt free will a bias as well?

[quote][cite] Baker:[/cite][quote][cite] ccd:[/cite]> For a conviction to be valid, it has to be beyond biases.

Exactly the point.[/quote]

Allright, but what does one do and think in the meantime, until one reaches the state beyond bias?[br]
[br]What "bridging attitudes" or "temporary morality/philosophy" should one employ?[br][/quote] The answer was given by Krishna in the verse tad viddhi pranipatena pariprasnena sevaya. In other words you need association of tattva-darsis. Not that it is easy to obtain, but this is what the answer is.

> I feel very much uncomfortable and ashamed that I should have to study philosophy and meta-aspects of belief in God and spiritual practice like that.

It was you who started with philosophy, in a sort of agnostic way. So I adapt to that attitude.

> I have this conviction that I should be able to accept and understand the topics of Krishna consciousness without such study.

Yes, thats in a sense easier. But so far you claimed you cant do bhakti. Therefore philosophy (jnana) is the previous step.

> You have probably seen the way Sri Govinda Das has criticized me here, that I am "too mental", "set in my ways" and so on. I have a very strong inner voice that tells me such things most of the time as well. Most of the devotees I have met are like that too.

You inner voice and most devotees tell you the same as Sri Govinda Das? Well, in that case it seems you should seriously consider it.

> There is also the fact that I am in a female body. Many devotees have the conviction that females do not understand philosophy, or can, at most, understand it only in a very limited sense, and that they might as well stay away from philosophy altogether. I dont know how much I should accept this conviction and act on it if I am to associate with devotees and perhaps become one.

Imho, this is not a major obstacle. If one is inquisitive, one should pursue knowledge and wisdom. Philosophy = "a love of wisdom".
Their topmost expression is in bhakti.

> Moreover, I am well aware that I am way out of your league. I am not young anymore, nor do I have many resources in terms of intelligence, time and money. And that therefore, I need to rethink whether it is worth it or reasonable for me to invest in pursuing associacion with people for which I will most likely not qualify. That instead, I should not "aim too high", and should just try to adapt to the devotees it is actually possible for me to associate with, even if they are not exactly to my liking.

This sounds like excuses to me. As I said, bhakti yoga can be practiced by children and even animals and plants (passively - hearing, eating). You try to compare yourself with others from the pov of better/worse. This is not needed. The main qualification is a desire to serve Krsna (sevonmukha).

> Or should one think "Okay, Ill just grit my teeth and move on until I reach the goal, ignoring all doubts, questions, and considerations that may occur to me in the meantime."

No, these things are automatically cleared on the bhakti path.

> Also, isnt free will a bias as well?

No, its a main characteristic of every jiva.

>> You have probably seen the way Sri Govinda Das has criticized me here, that I am "too mental", "set in my ways" and so on. I have a very strong inner voice that tells me such things most of the time as well. Most of the devotees I have met are like that too.
>
>You inner voice and most devotees tell you the same as Sri Govinda Das? Well, in that case it seems you should seriously consider it.

It is perfectly FINE to be mental, provided you have a proper space where you can open your mind to devotees. Devotees often misused the term mental, on mental platform -- and ask others to just do it -- mainly because they have no facility to deal with other peoples. It is not a norm, it is a mistake -- there should be a space where you can air your doubts, your questions and mental things. That is natural, but better done among devotee-friends,

[quote][cite] VEDA:[/cite]
> You have probably seen the way Sri Govinda Das has criticized me here, that I am "too mental", "set in my ways" and so on. I have a very strong inner voice that tells me such things most of the time as well. Most of the devotees I have met are like that too.

[br]You inner voice and most devotees tell you the same as Sri Govinda Das? Well, in that case it seems you should seriously consider it.[/quote]

[br]I said I have a very strong inner voice that tells me such things. I have several "inner voices". The loudest one is the one representing the majority of people I have known or met, and they think negatively of me.[br]
[br]Ever since I can remember, most people have considered me stupid. Even though for highschool and college, I received a special state-sponsored grant for the above-average intelligent. Still, I often get treated as if I couldnt count to three. How does one reconcile that?[br]

[quote][cite] ccd:[/cite]
It is perfectly FINE to be mental, provided you have a proper space where you can open your mind to devotees. Devotees often misused the term mental, on mental platform -- and ask others to just do it -- mainly because they have no facility to deal with other peoples. It is not a norm, it is a mistake -- there should be a space where you can air your doubts, your questions and mental things. That is natural, but better done among devotee-friends,[/quote]

The way things have been going for me, it looks like I am never going to have any devotee friends. So I am trying to find a way around that.[br]

[br]But I think I get your hint - I should stop posting about "my stuff" here. I understand.[br]

[quote][cite] Baker:[/cite][quote][cite] ccd:[/cite]
It is perfectly FINE to be mental, provided you have a proper space where you can open your mind to devotees. Devotees often misused the term mental, on mental platform -- and ask others to just do it -- mainly because they have no facility to deal with other peoples. It is not a norm, it is a mistake -- there should be a space where you can air your doubts, your questions and mental things. That is natural, but better done among devotee-friends,[/quote]

The way things have been going for me, it looks like I am never going to have any devotee friends. So I am trying to find a way around that.[br]

[br]But I think I get your hint - I should stop posting about "my stuff" here. I understand.[br][/quote] Are you saying we are not your friends? Is that what it is;-)

> I said I have a very strong inner voice that tells me such things. I have several "inner voices". The loudest one is the one representing the majority of people I have known or met, and they think negatively of me.

This is the mind molded by experience in this life.

> Ever since I can remember, most people have considered me stupid. Even though for highschool and college, I received a special state-sponsored grant for the above-average intelligent. Still, I often get treated as if I couldnt count to three. How does one reconcile that?

Easily. Therere many such people. They have analytical approach to life. When someone falls into a well and the rope is thrown in to pull him out, most persons will catch the rope. The analysts will start pondering and studying the rope. That may be the last thing in their life. From the pov of rescuers its stupid.
The story with cleaning puja items shows a way out. When one can do it (sevonmukha), Lord becomes satisfied and gives spiritual intelligence. Then things become clear and bhaktiyoga can start. So simple, yet so difficult...

Baker:
"Ever since I can remember, most people have considered me stupid. Even though for highschool and college, I received a special state-sponsored grant for the above-average intelligent. Still, I often get treated as if I couldnt count to three. How does one reconcile that?"

Baker, thats how normally people look at themselves through the eyes of other people. Result is when someone says, you are nice and intelligent one becomes happy and when someone says you are fool and idiot, one becomes unhappy.

My suggestion is that please stop looking at yourself via others. Take a different route and look at yourself directly from your own eyes rather than looking at yourself from other peoples eyes.

[quote][cite] VEDA:[/cite]Easily. Therere many such people. They have analytical approach to life. When someone falls into a well and the rope is thrown in to pull him out, most persons will catch the rope. The analysts will start pondering and studying the rope. That may be the last thing in their life. From the pov of rescuers its stupid.[/quote]

I think this is a caricature of those "analysts", seen merely from the perspective of "rescuers".[br]
[br]I have, for a fact, been several times in situations where I was on the verge of death. For example like one time, when I was free diving and went too deep. As the water was pressing more and more and I had no air, I indeed started thinking. If there would be a chair there several meters below surface, I would probably have sat down. But what I was thinking about was whether it was worth it to try to swim up. Whether life is worth living.[br]
[br]Some other time, I fell on my behind and stopped breathing. It was a surreal experience. I noticed I didnt breathe, wondered what to do, but most of all, whether it was worth it to do something.[br]
[br]The fact that I contemplated like that, that was the most disturbing about those experiences, not the falls, injuries, or breathing in seawater.[br]

[br]Normal people would seek to save themselves in such situations, they wouldnt think twice. But I did. I wondered whether it was worth it. "Studying the rope" came in much later, after I saw that I cannot answer the question whether life is worth living, without reference to some "rope", spiritual path.

[br][quote]The story with cleaning puja items shows a way out. When one can do it (sevonmukha), Lord becomes satisfied and gives spiritual intelligence. Then things become clear and bhaktiyoga can start. So simple, yet so difficult...[/quote]

[br]Oh, I can do that. But my problem is that there are almost always other people present in my mind somehow, in the form of voice or image. For example, even if I just think of a picture of Krishna, usually, some devotee criticizing me will be present in my mind as well. "You may not, you dont know. You did this wrong, you did that wrong. We dont like you. You will never be able, you will never understand. If you dont know by now, you will never know." This goes on to the point that my arms feel heavy and I become passive.

[quote][cite] dweller-in-peace:[/cite]
My suggestion is that please stop looking at yourself via others. Take a different route and look at yourself directly from your own eyes rather than looking at yourself from other peoples eyes.[/quote]

I have been advised this several times before. I dont know what it means. What are "my own eyes"? How can I know what "my own eyes" as opposed to "other peoples eyes"?

> I think this is a caricature of those "analysts", seen merely from the perspective of "rescuers".

The rescuers here represent the majority of folks. You wanted to know so I gave a metaphor that came to my mind. It was used by SP:

Similarly, those who are in the dark well of this material world cannot conceive of the light outside, in the spiritual world. But that world is a fact. Suppose someone has fallen into a well and he cries out, '93I have fallen into this well! Please save me!'94 Then a man outside drops down a rope and calls, '93Just catch hold of this rope and I will pull you out!'94 But no, the fallen man has no faith in the man outside and does not catch hold of the rope. Similarly, we are telling everyone in the material world, '93You are suffering. Just take up this Krsna consciousness and all your suffering will be relieved.'94 Unfortunately, people refuse to catch hold of the rope, or they do not even admit they are suffering.
But one who is fortunate will catch hold of the rope of Krsna consciousness, and then the spiritual master will help him out of this dark world of suffering and bring him to the illuminated, happy world of Krsna consciousness.
(Beyond Birth and Death, 2:Plato)

> there are almost always other people present in my mind somehow, in the form of voice or image.

These are the other eyes, to be disregarded if they try to stop you from serving Krsna. To become passive is of no help.

>"other peoples eyes"?
there are almost always other people present in my mind somehow, in the form of voice or image.

>What are "my own eyes"?
athato brahma jijnasa.

The first aphorism in the Vedanta-sutra is athato brahma jijnasa. In the human form of life one should put many questions to himself and to his intelligence. In the various forms of life lower than human life the intelligence does not go beyond the range of lifes primary necessities--namely eating, sleeping, mating and defending. Dogs, cats and tigers are always busy trying to find something to eat or a place to sleep, trying to defend and have sexual intercourse successfully. In the human form of life, however, one should be intelligent enough to ask what he is, why he has come into the world, what his duty is, who is the supreme controller, what is the difference between dull matter and the living entity, etc. There are so many questions, and the person who is actually intelligent should simply inquire about the supreme source of everything: athato brahma jijnasa.

You are asking lot of questions about god, his existence. This is Brahma jijnasa. So you are on right track. If you are not satisfied with the answers you have received, there is no need to panic. There is no need to condemn yourself or to feel guilty if it is taking you time to find answers to all your questions.

My dear Bhaktine baker ....please accept my kind regards.I am very pleased that you are still enquiring about your true devotional identity and spiritual life!I have genuinely benefitted from your association.Your questions and our humble attempts to answer will indeed make us all successful spiritually.Patience and a sublime desire to keep on going helps alot.Merely by being stubborn to refuse to give in ......you have impressed me!Hopefully my worshipful lord ....Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu and my guru will soon bless you as he does me personally and regularly.Hare krishna......chant the 16 rounds it works!Even my dark heart has changed fo-the better!

In a way the fact that there are so many scriptures and that they all talk about God, even in different cultures and in different parts of history, the fact that for the most part nobody even knows the author of Vedic scripures and that they continue to fascinate intelligent people over thecenturies and certainly over the last 150 years in the west as well -- it all can be taken as a proof of the existence of God.

Jesus loves me
This I know
Cause the Bible
Tells me so

Are scriptures proof of God? A mango is proof of God. Consciousness is proof of God. The color blue is proof of God. Grass and leaves are proof of God. I am proof of God. You are proof of God. The sky, the land, ... earth, water, fire, air, ether, mind, intellect, ego .... all the elements existing in matter are proof of God. The universe with all the stars and planets .. the sun and moon .... all creatures mobile and immobile, gigantic and tiny .. everything that exists .... PROOF OF GOD! That an atheist can declare that there is no God ... is proof of God ....

[quote][cite] ccd:[/cite]In a way the fact that there are so many scriptures and that they all talk about God, even in different cultures and in different parts of history, the fact that for the most part nobody even knows the author of Vedic scripures and that they continue to fascinate intelligent people over thecenturies and certainly over the last 150 years in the west as well -- it all can be taken as a proof of the existence of God.[/quote]

We could also ask, coming from the scope of pratyaksa and anumana, "Why is it necessary to have proof of God (before we can continue on the path of our search?)" or "What are ones own reasons for seriously considering that God does not exist?" and "What are the criteria for something to be a "proof"?" Following such questions through to their assumptions and implications has got to bring one to the end of ones wits ... Which can sometimes be very useful ...

[quote][cite] dweller-in-peace:[/cite]
You are asking lot of questions about god, his existence. This is Brahma jijnasa. So you are on right track. If you are not satisfied with the answers you have received, there is no need to panic. There is no need to condemn yourself or to feel guilty if it is taking you time to find answers to all your questions.[/quote]

Thank you for your reply! It inspires me to review how to organize my studies of spiritual literature and my attitudes as a seeker.

[quote][cite] VEDA:[/cite]
> there are almost always other people present in my mind somehow, in the form of voice or image.

[br]These are the other eyes, to be disregarded if they try to stop you from serving Krsna. To become passive is of no help.[/quote]

How do I disregard them? They are devotees, after all, and I feel I am being rude if I disregard them. (Gritting my teeth and forcing my mind elsewhere works for some time, but not for long.)

> We could also ask, ...

These are the topics of Substance and Shadow book.

> They are devotees, after all, and I feel I am being rude if I disregard them.

What is your other option? Stopping your service? No good.

[quote][cite] VEDA:[/cite]What is your other option? Stopping your service? No good.[/quote]

It seems the solution would be to somehow take myself out of the equation - no (wo)man, no problem, which is what I have been trying to do so far. It also seems this is what others want as well - that I would somehow become invisible.

No, Krsna wants to see everyone of us. Thats the meaning of darsana.

Interesting desire to be "somehow become invisible." It is a mixture of humility and pride. The Box Man (
f2 'cf'e4'c4'd0
f0 Hako otoko) by Abe Kobo deals with it, but it is not a very good proposal. Act in such a way that you will be noticed by Krishna and your guru. But you can keep a low profile, that certainly the right attitude.

It is not being rude, just keeping a distance (if you can) especially from those who are conditioned by a different set of cultural values.

[quote][cite] Baker:[/cite][quote][cite] ccd:[/cite]In a way the fact that there are so many scriptures and that they all talk about God, even in different cultures and in different parts of history, the fact that for the most part nobody even knows the author of Vedic scripures and that they continue to fascinate intelligent people over thecenturies and certainly over the last 150 years in the west as well -- it all can be taken as a proof of the existence of God.[/quote]

We could also ask, coming from the scope of pratyaksa and anumana, "Why is it necessary to have proof of God (before we can continue on the path of our search?)" or "What are ones own reasons for seriously considering that God does not exist?" and "What are the criteria for something to be a "proof"?"..[/quote] Kierkegaard had something very smart to say about demanding a proof. Do you want a quote?

[quote][cite] ccd:[/cite]Kierkegaard had something very smart to say about demanding a proof. Do you want a quote?[/quote]

[br]Yes, please.

[quote][cite] ccd:[/cite]Interesting desire to be "somehow become invisible." It is a mixture of humility and pride.[/quote]

I think this desire is actually part of our culture here, so Im not sure how personal it actually is. One of my earliest memories of it is as I witnessed the ritual of adults drinking coffee. The way they spoke of it, their non-verbal expressions related to it, it made me think coffee _is supposed_ to be drunk, in order to appease some merciless god of coffee and normalcy, regardless whether one likes coffee or not. That one has to eliminate oneself out of the equation as much as possible and do the things that need to be done.[br]
[br]In the same manner, I have experienced Christianity, meat eating, sex, alchol drinking, women wearing high heels, appreciating art and so on down the line.
[br]It is utterly bizarre to me, how people talk about their enjoyments and pleasures - that you have to do it, because this is the dictate of normalcy, and you have to be normal combined with oh, it was so wonderful! it made me so happy;.
[br]Beckett and Kafka, for example, make a lot of sense to me that way. When I first saw an American mainstream musical, I thought I was watching a Beckettian play - to me, those musicals seem to be in the same genre as the absurdist plays. (Yes, I have had a lot of problems at school.)

[br][quote]Act in such a way that you will be noticed by Krishna and your guru. But you can keep a low profile, that certainly the right attitude.[/quote]

I agree with keeping a low profile, its what I have been wanting all along. But I dont know what exactly that is! Sometimes, it seems to me that part of keeping a low profile is to not engage in any kind of introspection, philosophy or discussion whatsoever, but to do ones duties, perfectly, modestly and silently, without any thinking. [br]Hence one of my biggest problems with Vaishnavism and the devotees: they seem too colorful, too cheerful, too involved with philosophy, too fond of variety to still be considered keeping a low profile. If one is keeping a low profile, then one cannot smile, can one? What color is the japa bag of someone who is keeping a low profile?

[quote][cite] Baker:[/cite][quote][cite] ccd:[/cite]Kierkegaard had something very smart to say about demanding a proof. Do you want a quote?[/quote]

[br]Yes, please.[/quote] here is one:[br][br]

"Anselm prays in all inwardness that he might succeed in proving
Gods existence. He thinks he has succeeded, and he flings himself down
in adoration to thank God. Amazillg. He does not notice that this prayer
and this expression of thanksgiving are infinitely more proof of Gods
existence than-the proof. (1953) [br][br]

and[br][br]

Kierkegaard'92s rejection of any undertaking to find rational proof for the
existence of God was due not only to the inability of reason '91to
understand what is absolutely different from itself'92 but, above
all, to the presumptuousness inherent in such an effort. For to
prove the existence of one who is present is the most shameless
affront. . . The existence of a king, or his presence, is commonly
acknowledged by an appropriate expression of subjugation and
submission'97what if, in his sublime presence, one were to prove
that he existed?'94 [br][br]

(from Prabhupada Appreciation quoted in Poor Man Reads the Bhagavatam (SB 1.8.33) - vol 4)

[quote][cite] Baker:[/cite][quote][cite] ccd:[/cite]Interesting desire to be "somehow become invisible." It is a mixture of humility and pride.[/quote]

I think this desire is actually part of our culture here, so Im not sure how personal it actually is.[/quote] Well maybe it is an effect of urbanization I dont really know. How do you propose for yourself to keep a low profile"? I will be interested to know what you actually prepared to undergo;-) I know for myself it is hard, but should not be something external only. In fact one can theoretically be bright and prominent but internally keep a low profile.

> Sometimes, it seems to me that part of keeping a low profile is to not engage in any kind of introspection, philosophy or discussion whatsoever, but to do ones duties, perfectly, modestly and silently, without any thinking.

Vaisnava must be introspective, philosophical (at least to some extent), able to discuss. Thinking - in the philosophical speculation style, i.e. within sastra limits.

> Hence one of my biggest problems with Vaishnavism and the devotees: they seem too colorful, too cheerful, too involved with philosophy, too fond of variety to still be considered keeping a low profile.

I guess your idea is to be as inconspicuous as possible, like the proverbial grey mouse. Thats not a Vaisnava idea. Imho, it means that one doesnt attract attention to oneself, emphasizing ones qualities and achievements, and doesnt strive for positions and titles in order to be admired. But one is ready to do any service needed without considering if one gets recognized or not. And one shuns any formal appreciations, like Madhavendra Puri. The prime example from modern times would be Jayananda Prabhu.

> If one is keeping a low profile, then one cannot smile, can one? What color is the japa bag of someone who is keeping a low profile?

Why not? Any color. 8)

[quote][cite] ccd:[/cite]How do you propose for yourself to keep a low profile"? I will be interested to know what you actually prepared to undergo;-)[/quote]

Thank you for asking.[br]
[br]My keeping a low profile is so far based mostly on the reflection that I am someone subject to birth, aging, illness and death, in all their forms; therefore, it is fitting that I dont try to deny that, thinking Oh, I can win over birth, aging, illness and death.

[br]For example, I dont wear make-up, high heels or fancy clothes, because were I to stumble and fall, get robbed, be told some awful news and cry - it would look really silly to wear make-up etc. then. Few things are as ridiculous as a woman all dolled up who trips, or loses her job.[br]
[br]For similar reasons, I make an effort to eat simple foods, the main criteria being that they be healthy and nutritious, even if not all that tasty. I use little salt, I dont fry, I eat little sugar. No pizza and no pasta.[br]

[br]I always try to be in such a state of mind so as to be ready to hear some awful news and not become too disturbed.[br]

[br]Im not sure though how to transfer this attitude into my interactions with people. Mostly, it means that I limit my interactions to formal ones, or to situations where participation is highly voluntary (such as forums or open discussions) - as opposed to one to one personal situations where some obligations arise simply out of being physically present in the same space with someone.[br]

[br][quote]I know for myself it is hard, but should not be something external only. In fact one can theoretically be bright and prominent but internally keep a low profile.[/quote]

What do you do to keep a low profile, what reflections underlie your low profile behavior?

[quote][cite] ccd:[/cite]"Anselm prays in all inwardness that he might succeed in proving
Gods existence. He thinks he has succeeded, and he flings himself down
in adoration to thank God. Amazillg. He does not notice that this prayer
and this expression of thanksgiving are infinitely more proof of Gods
existence than-the proof. (1953) [/quote]

Sure - but while Anselm was searching for his proof of God, his consciousness was changed due to that very search, was it not? Was this change not the crucial part of the proof - even if it is not formally included in it? [br]
[br]Yet this was _Anselms_ proof of God, _he_ put effort into it. We can nowadays read his proof, and not be convinced - words alone dont prove anything. Had we, however, put a lot of effort into finding a proof of God, we too might end up with a proof and become convinced.[br]

[quote]Kierkegaard'92s rejection of any undertaking to find rational proof for the
existence of God was due not only to the inability of reason '91to
understand what is absolutely different from itself'92 but, above
all, to the presumptuousness inherent in such an effort. For to
prove the existence of one who is present is the most shameless
affront. . . The existence of a king, or his presence, is commonly
acknowledged by an appropriate expression of subjugation and
submission'97what if, in his sublime presence, one were to prove
that he existed?'94 [br][br]

(from Prabhupada Appreciation quoted in Poor Man Reads the Bhagavatam (SB 1.8.33) - vol 4)[/quote]

But the point in seeking proof of God is that one does not actually know God is present. The run-of-the-mill person does not have spiritual vision; she is firmly entangled in attachment to the senses and to the dualism of subjectivity and objectivity. She cannot overcome those attachments simply by telling herself so and thinking herself stupid and inept. But the fideists seem to propose just that: that blind faith, that fear and panic can make better decisions than reason. However, take away the threat of eternal damnation, and blind faith loses its appeal.[br]

[br]There is also a difference between _demanding_ proof and _making an effort to find_ proof.

> There is also a difference between _demanding_ proof and _making an effort to find_ proof.

That is a good point.

It indeed takes all types......Bhaktine baker.Unfortunately i am prone to being extremely colourful...in my conditioned humble present existence .However my freind bhaktine baker with application ,surrender and chanting 16 rounds all our lower qualities and fears will be spiritualised and enriched over time .We are not meant for the eternally sinful dogma one christian preacher shouted at me yesterday.Krishna is simply available to everyone in prasadam.....especially when such food is offered with real bhakti and devotion.This higher taste....or param dristva is simple to appreciate.SABDHA BRAHMAN....he is also present within transcendental sound!

[quote][cite] VEDA:[/cite]I guess your idea is to be as inconspicuous as possible, like the proverbial grey mouse. Thats not a Vaisnava idea. Imho, it means that one doesnt attract attention to oneself, emphasizing ones qualities and achievements, and doesnt strive for positions and titles in order to be admired. But one is ready to do any service needed without considering if one gets recognized or not. And one shuns any formal appreciations, like Madhavendra Puri. The prime example from modern times would be Jayananda Prabhu.[/quote]

Its true, I do have a desire to be as inconspicuous as possible. But I seem to attract attention - and I dont want that. Often, I dont know who to behave so as to not attract attention.[br]

[br]For example, asking questions and engaging in discussion usually draws attention to oneself. So in order not to draw attention to myself, should I refrain from asking questions and discussing?[br]

[br]Or ones external appearance and behavior. Once, a devotee criticized me in front of everyone over the way I sit during kirtan. Namely, I sit upright, not leaning back, legs together, hands in dhyana mudra or otherwise placed in the front (but never crossed on the chest). (We all sit in chairs there.) He said that kirtan is not meant to meditate upon the Lord, at which point he mockingly mimicked my sitting posture. He has been a devotee for fifteen years and I am sure he knows the Siksastaka says there are no hard and fast rules for singing the names of the Lord. He also did not sound like he would take any counterargument from me. The other devotees didnt say anything, but merely smiled. I suppose they agreed with him. Nobody there sits the way I do.[br]

[br]What should I have done or said, how should I sit. I sang in the school choir for eight years and I have done some Buddhist concentration meditation, so I know from experience what posture of the body is the most conducive to singing and concentrating as optimally as I can. If I lean backward or forward, cross my arms or legs (if sitting in a chair or standing), my voice and concentration suffer (and its not like they are good to begin with).
[br]So merely the way I sit draws attention to me. But if I sat the way others usually do, Id get sleepy and sang wrongly. What am I to do.

> Often, I dont know who to behave so as to not attract attention.

I refererred to a purposeful attracting attention. Asking proper questions in a proper way doesnt count.

Simply explain why you sit like that. If one is disturbed by others sitting, what can I say...?

Vyasa-gita of the K'fcrma Pur'e4na: '91One should properly sit facing east on a mat made of kusa grass and with a controlled mind he should practice pranayama three times before engaging in sandhya meditation. This is the injunction of the Vedic literature.'92 ;-)

[quote][cite] Baker:[/cite][quote][cite] ccd:[/cite]How do you propose for yourself to keep a low profile"? I will be interested to know what you actually prepared to undergo;-)[/quote]

Thank you for asking.[br]
[br]My keeping a low profile is so far based mostly on the reflection that I am someone subject to birth, aging, illness and death, in all their forms; therefore, it is fitting that I dont try to deny that, thinking Oh, I can win over birth, aging, illness and death.

[br]For example, I dont wear make-up, high heels or fancy clothes, because were I to stumble and fall, get robbed, be told some awful news and cry - it would look really silly to wear make-up etc. then. Few things are as ridiculous as a woman all dolled up who trips, or loses her job.[br]
[br]For similar reasons, I make an effort to eat simple foods, the main criteria being that they be healthy and nutritious, even if not all that tasty. I use little salt, I dont fry, I eat little sugar. No pizza and no pasta.[br]

[br]I always try to be in such a state of mind so as to be ready to hear some awful news and not become too disturbed.[br]

[br]Im not sure though how to transfer this attitude into my interactions with people. Mostly, it means that I limit my interactions to formal ones, or to situations where participation is highly voluntary (such as forums or open discussions) - as opposed to one to one personal situations where some obligations arise simply out of being physically present in the same space with someone.[br]

[br][quote]I know for myself it is hard, but should not be something external only. In fact one can theoretically be bright and prominent but internally keep a low profile.[/quote]

What do you do to keep a low profile, what reflections underlie your low profile behavior?[/quote] One devotee suggested to me that one should show humility by just accepting what others say and not arguing back (all the time). I struggle with it.

[quote][cite] sri_govinda_das:[/cite]It indeed takes all types......Bhaktine baker.Unfortunately i am prone to being extremely colourful...in my conditioned humble present existence .However my freind bhaktine baker with application ,surrender and chanting 16 rounds all our lower qualities and fears will be spiritualised and enriched over time .We are not meant for the eternally sinful dogma one christian preacher shouted at me yesterday.Krishna is simply available to everyone in prasadam.....especially when such food is offered with real bhakti and devotion.This higher taste....or param dristva is simple to appreciate.SABDHA BRAHMAN....he is also present within transcendental sound![/quote]

There seems to be something magical about chanting sixteen rounds. I cant explain, but there is a feeling of accomplishment, that "I have done my duty. Not perfectly, but I have made an effort and at least done the minimum."[br]

[br]My whole life, I have been focused on doom and gloom, and I had thought it is going to be like that until the day I die. I had thought I would feel this same doom and gloom also if I chanted sixteen rounds.[br]
[br]But now I cannot help but to feel lighter somehow, not exactly a smile, more a grin on my face. I really dont know how to accomodate this new feeling into my life, and it disturbs me. I feel I am not being serious enough!!

[quote][cite] ccd:[/cite]One devotee suggested to me that one should show humility by just accepting what others say and not arguing back (all the time). I struggle with it.[/quote]

I have been thinking about this too - it is said that a devotee should not be argumentative. I myself tend to be very combative in discussion - this is something that really bothers me about myself. I suppose being combative like that is a kind of self-defence, which points at not having a safe refuge.[br]

[br]As far as I can see, it seems that a lot of whether one will be alright with just accepting what others say comes down to ones reasons for not being argumentative.
[br]If the reason is to the effect of "Im worthelss/stupid/a lowlife, therefore, I should just accept what others say", it is likely going to be very hard to refrain from arguing back.
[br]Similar if the reason is "It doesnt matter what they or I say or think anyway."[br]

[br]I am still looking for a good reason for not being argumentative, a reason that wouldnt include self-loathing or loathing others or life. Do you know any such reason?[br]

[br]I have also noticed that I am less combative if I invest and improve my spiritual practice. And this improvement neednt have anything directly to do with addressing my combative issues. For example, once I simply reorganized my folder for spiritual studies, added some pictures and a nice front page - and I was noticeably less combative for several days.[br]

>He said that kirtan is not meant to meditate upon the Lord, at which point he mockingly mimicked my sitting posture. He has been a devotee for fifteen years and I am >sure he knows the Siksastaka says there are no hard and fast rules for singing the names of the Lord. He also did not sound like he would take any counterargument >from me.

ISKCON is full of such bogus Gurus and Chelas. Fifteen years is nothing, even after 50 years they will remain the same. Did you feel like punching him in the nose?

>Baker: I am still looking for a good reason for not being argumentative, a reason that wouldnt include self-loathing or loathing others or life. Do you know any such reason?

Well a good reason is that unreasonable people dont respond to reason. Second reason is to ignore is better then argue. And if you agree with someone you have an opportunity to use the favor and suggest something back. If you do take the suggestion from others seriously, it may help you, if taken in proper consciousness, to become purified and more humble. Eventually you will be able to see the hand of God in the words of a stranger and take them as external representative of caitya-guru. And even further you should note that when a senior person chastises you, he takes upon himself/herself your token of karma, thus allowing you to rid yourself of bad karma.

It has nothing to do with beating yourself into the ground. Smile back if you have something to say but know they can not take it from you.

Actually this krishna conciousness is indeed meant for the genuine ,sincere,and the truly loyal souls....bhaktine baker.Which you are attempting to become by sincerely chanting and gradually serving the more senior devotees.Humility and actually attaining its wonderfull burden....empathy for the conditioned souls allows one to free oneself from the material natures crushing embrace.Krishna will personally encourage you when you sincerly pray and serve in a humble submissive loving attitude .This argumentative mood is not favourable.....so simply reject it as a symtom of your diseased condition and carry on ...... with a dynamic practical service attitude and regularly bow down to older devotees if possible with a submissive mood even if it is artificial initially.Very soon srila Prabhupada and the previous archaryas will nourish your sincerity and realisation ,hence you will sweetly become convinced daily.Krishna will allow you to become his empowered servant ecstatically.....blissfully and then your spiritual life has truly began!

[quote][cite] ccd:[/cite]>Baker: I am still looking for a good reason for not being argumentative, a reason that wouldnt include self-loathing or loathing others or life. Do you know any such reason?

Well a good reason is that unreasonable people dont respond to reason. Second reason is to ignore is better then argue. And if you agree with someone you have an opportunity to use the favor and suggest something back. If you do take the suggestion from others seriously, it may help you, if taken in proper consciousness, to become purified and more humble. Eventually you will be able to see the hand of God in the words of a stranger and take them as external representative of caitya-guru. And even further you should note that when a senior person chastises you, he takes upon himself/herself your token of karma, thus allowing you to rid yourself of bad karma.

It has nothing to do with beating yourself into the ground. Smile back if you have something to say but know they can not take it from you.[/quote]

Reading your reply, I thought of something that always lurks in the back of my mind, and which I rather dont think of at all. Namely, that there is some fundamental discord between myself and the devotees, and that no matter how much I try to improve my practice, no matter what I do, this discord will remain there.[br]

[br]I have first experienced such a discord with the Catholics. My grandmother was the kind of Catholic who believed that if someone was not baptized as a child, they will go to hell, even if later on they do become baptized and go to church and do everything that proper Christians do. I was allowed to go to church with her and pray, but it was clear that I was not "one of them" and had no chance of ever becoming "one of them".[br]

[br]I have the same feeling with the devotees. That even if I chant 64 rounds daily, impeccably keep the regulative principles, take initation, regularly go to classes, donate large sums of money and material necessities, go on pilgrimage and so on, to the devotees, I will still be a second-class person, not "one of them". That they will never accept me, never actually be friends with me, and that to them, I will always be a mere visitor.

> That they will never accept me, never actually be friends with me, and that to them, I will always be a mere visitor.

Not so. But to have friends one needs to behave as a friend in the first place. Therere six priti laksanas to practice among devotees. NOI 4.

I have had a really bad start with the devotees. I dont know whose fault it is, I am not saying that I have played no part in it. I have tried to keep a low profile as much as I could. But from the beginning on, they have had a patronizing, "we will tell you what you think, we dont need to ask you anything to know who and what you are" attitude toward me. And then when that devotee slammed down with a chair in front of me, looking fiercely right through me ...

Surely those negative experiences must have significance beyond themselves? I mean, if those devotees thought it was right to make empty promises to me, to yell at me, to leave me out for prasadam ... - then there probably is something to it, that they judged I did/do not deserve a better treatment. If I would be treated like that in a worldly group, this would mean that the group is telling me they dont want me among themselves. Perhaps it means the same here?

[quote][cite] Baker:[/cite]
[br]I have the same feeling with the devotees. That even if I chant 64 rounds daily, impeccably keep the regulative principles, take initation, regularly go to classes, donate large sums of money and material necessities, go on pilgrimage and so on, to the devotees, I will still be a second-class person, not "one of them". That they will never accept me, never actually be friends with me, and that to them, I will always be a mere visitor.[/quote]

Not So. Well, until your money ran out that is...

To evaluate the situation wed need more inputs from both sides. So far it seems to me those devotees are too neophyte to handle beginners of your type. I already suggested a group talk to clarify positions and expectations of all involved. And trying to find some more advanced devotees who can encourage instead of discourage.

My dear bhaktine baker....obviously these devotees are simply basic devotees,as Veda prabhu intimates.However your service attitude is very important.When i was a young devotee , just surrenderedand feeling that there should be some magical appreciation from both sides.These older devotees should magically see that i am special also....i was completely out of my depth and seriously unable to relate to most devotees i had just met.However i quickly realised that cleaning the pots was one service which every temple is in need of !Infact when i took to that service i was appreciated automatically......at least the cooks saw i was trying to fit in.Usually they have some weight in the temple management and get very uposet when you muck with their servants....their help!So this worked for me...Eventually because i regularly served they listened and eventually these great souls personally accepted me....into their swan like association..And since i was a crow...i tried to ask good questions on how to best clean the pots.Through this service krishna blessed me with the head cook garuda das,regularly saving me rich prasadam....from krishnas personal plate.Which he informed me was maha-prasadam....trying to remain humble ,though it was solid sugar..halava i swallowed hard and smiled profusely out of gratitude....And so i was accepted....as one of the team.

Thank you for your support!

I have been an exception my whole life. I have always wanted to fit in and be like others. But somehow, I never succeeded at that. I am afraid that speaking up will only make things worse for me - it always has so far.

I have heard of a study about the social integration of people with above-average IQ. The findings were basically that if an person with an above-average or high IQ is introduced to an IQ homogenous group, and the IQ difference between the individual and the group is about 30 points, that individual will likely be socially disadvantaged and the group will negatively judge his other abilities as well.

I found a wikianswer - What is the connection between people who have high IQs or who are very talented or creative and depression or other mental disorders? - with stories of people just like my own: "extreme sensitivity", "wearing ones heart on the sleeve", "ADD", "OCD", "depression", "social anxiety", "shyness", "finding it hard to relate to other people", "maladjustment", "easily intimidated by bold, loud, extroverted types of people", "people seeing one as standoffish, weird, pedantic, boring", "racing thoughts", "feeling one has to act stupid in order to fit in", "accused of narcissism".

This is the story of my life. It started with the non-devotees, and its repeating with the devotees.

What usually earns me the epithet of being stupid or something to that effect, is that I ask questions or otherwise express thoughts about "how do you know you know" and "why is that valuable".

In an earnest conversation about spiritual topics, I once asked a Mormon missionary (and he seemed fairly accomplished) how he knows he is not just imagining things, how he knows that Jesus really exists, and pointed out that I dont know how to distinguish between reality and imagination. He earnestly advised me to seek psychiatric help. Several other Christians have advised me to seek psychiatric help for my thoughts about knowing things, depression and identity.

Most devotees I have met also seem to think that one first needs to be sane and healthy according to some Western standard of normalcy, before one is fit to start on the spiritual path. This has gotten me into a lot of trouble as I would ask devotees things like "How do you know you had free will in your choice of spiritual path?" To me, this is a perfectly normal question, and having a problem with answering it with "I just knew" also seems normal to me.

Yes my new freind bhaktine baker,you are infact overly fearful.....possibly severly sensitiveand prone to open your mouth and talk...when silence would have left a better impression....however you are a sincere devotee ....with woman like needs and assuranceswhich in normal circumstances is usually provided for and catered for by a devotee husband..Personally over the years i have found it interesting dealing with the other group.....the mature men ,because they are infact many times callous ,selfish and self centred.They like answers like broad strokes....little personal detail,merely general instructions!Especially Australian devotees were prone to be very unable to deal with too much closeness or connected -ness to their personal situation and devotional immaturity.There mood as most peoples is.... that every thing will be sorted out in the wash!No need for so much personal facts .....envolvement and personal detail.However your mood is refreshing and tiring at the same time ,however management devotees will struggle to be necessary paitient and tolerant, to the degree you will need because it will drain and impact on their own vision unless they are mature in devotional service.However stick with Veda prabhu and kula -pavanna prabhus advice and encouragement.....and please chant 16 rounds if possible!

I have heard of a study about the social integration of people with above-average IQ. The findings were basically that if an person with an above-average or high IQ is introduced to an IQ homogenous group, and the IQ difference between the individual and the group is about 30 points, that individual will likely be socially disadvantaged and the group will negatively judge his other abilities as well.

You may seriously consider reducing your IQ level. Sometimes the level go dangerously high, especially if you eat certain foods. I have experienced it personally and I found a few over the counter medicines that work perfectly. A nice book for people like that is
How to Slow Down and Start Living Again by Phil Kalliaway. It will also help to restrict use of internet to about 30 minutes a week and joining a local bhaktin program (if you are male that it).