Pariprashnena — Q&A Archive

A yoga teacher who joined ISKCON together with his disciples for some time and then split. He has several sites and is mentioned in some discussions here, usually under "Haribols".

Where did they split to? Are they a deviation from the Gaudiya Sampradaya? If so what are the deviations?

It was not a deviation as such, it is a schism. We call them a splinter group.

Siddhaswarupananda Maharaja (Chris Butler) eventually left ISKCON, went back to Hawaii, formed a new organization called "Science of Identity" -- got married -- and lives a reclusive life in a very posh home in Hawaii. Many of the folks who were originally his followers and disciples from before he joined ISKCON in the early 70s are back with him and they also have expanded with centers mainly in Hawaii, Australia and the Phillipines. His Disciples refer to him as "Jagat Guru" as well as "Prabhupada." Among his loyal followers in Hawaii Siddhaswarup has some influential and controversial disciples such as Mike Gabbard, a local politician.

The above should be enough info for "googling" ones way right up to Siddhaswarups door -- but dont expect to be invited in. He has body guards and a security system at his enclave.

Here is their official website:

http://www.scienceofidentity.org/

Once I visited their program in Prague. Two Polish followers, one Czech translator and about six visitors, myself included.
The main thing is they want to avoid being confused with ISKCON. Therefore they didnt wear dhoti but business suits, no sikhas but regular hair, not playing traditional instruments but guitar, no mahamantra but mantra(?) "nitai gaur haribol, haribol nitai gaur". The philosophy itself wasnt deviated. At the end they distributed prasadam oranges. In summary, nothing specifically attractive although chanting Holy Names should be appreciated. Otoh, our acaryas dont like manufactured mantras.

Thats enough to be considered a deviation.

D V A Shun

My friend says his followers say Srila Prabhupada endorsed his branch and recognized him as a pure devotee.. I dont have access to the folio. Please post anything that endorses or poo poos him by Srila Prabhupada.

BTW. I emailed at their site but no one responds to my questions. I wanted to know where their temples are. They must have a Sunday program. Anyone know?

Try
there is a reasonbale size congregation in sacramento area

http://www.lotusgardenmeditation.org/

Do they have any actual temples?

Regarding Siddhasvarupananda, these things which you have heard are simply rumor and there is no substance. Siddhasvarupa does not want to take disciples, neither he should have disciples while I am alive. That is the process. I have never said that Siddhasvarupa is a pure devotee.* That is simply concoction. Now I am going to India in few weeks and I shall stop at Hawaii and take Siddhasvarupananda to India for training him up properly.
Hoping this meets you in good health,
Your ever well-wisher,
A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami
*But every one can become a pure devotee if he has no other desire than to serve Krsna and the Spiritual Master.
(letter to Sudevi, LA 15 Sept 1972)

All of my disciples are pure devotees. Anyone sincerely serving the spiritual master is a pure devotee, it may be Siddhasvarupa or others, a-Siddhasvarupa. This must be very clearly stated. It is not only that your Siddhasvarupa is a pure devotee and not others. Do not try to make a faction. Siddhasvarupa is a good soul. But others should not be misled. (letter to Tusta Krsna, Ahmedabad 14 Dec 1972)

Ouch! My gosh. Those are really clear words. How is it so many accept that he is a Paramahamsa?

Who can stop you from using any label? But that doesnt mean its factual, that one really has uttama adhikari characteristics. Even more people accept this title in case of Ramakrsna... How it can be a matter of number of followers?

Are there any online forums I can talk directly to his followers? All the websites I found are the same, quite generic but no forums or real interaction. How does one meet him? Where does he stay? There must be some access to him.

No online forums, it is against the strategy adopted by him. Complete privacy in many ways.

Actually when i jioned the haribols were concerned with following some of the four regulative principles....we were asked to stay apart because several literally blew themselves up in a bomb intended for the slaughter house......Freezing works in our town.They were intent on using violence and bombs .......until this sad adventure.Srila Prabhupada was intent on encouraging siddhaswarupa and his large group of followers to chant and preach.However they felt that iskcons heavy handed preaching techniques caused many potential devotees to see the hare krishna movement in a bad light.They were like the flower power people.....very casual and eventually degenigrated.Many times they were openly envious....any sincere ones joined us eventually and then merged into hindu sahajaism and all paths lead to the same gaol.Last i heard they were going to extreme lengths to say we are noy hare krishnas ......used to be big!......now they have merged ....and no longer around.Bloop!.....Bloop!

Imagination sri_govinda_das -- Urmila did go ahead and visited their temples a few years back, like in 2003, they are doing well and expanding in their areas, do not know about NZ (why would anyone go that far;-).

By the looks of their center in Sacramento it does not appear that they have gone away. It looks a little new agey though. Anyway I don'92t want to be too judgemental, as I don'92t know much about them. If they are chanting the Holy Names they must be on the right track???

Over the years I have met several of Siddhasvarupanandas disciples and found them to be very nice people. I went on harinam with them once in Poland and they were chanting Hare Krsna (that was around year 2000). They de-emphasize the external things like wearing dhotis or saris, and have a less strict approach to the 4 regulative principles. Other than the practical points, their theology is just like ours.

When you write "their theology is just like ours" --- what do you mean by "ours" ???? The pronoun "ours" implies you and others so the "you" part is clear enough -- but who are the others in "ours?"

I think he is talking about the Sampradaya. My freind got the scoop on what happened years ago with the devotees blowing themselves up. According to the Haribolers Jagad Guru told them it was not a good idea to employ violence they should just chant the Holy Name. But they went against the instruction, the result being they blew themselves up.

Srila Prabhupada said he was not a pure devotee but that was decades ago. Apparently he kept on his way and is now recognized by many as a bona-fide acharya. If anyone can show me some actual deviations from the philosophy I might be convinced he is not authorized. Otherwise I cant see discouraging anyone from hearing or trying to get his association as hard as that might be.

Well actually having been around them.....myself there Jagad guru has always been prone to go in the oppersite direction as iskcon.They dont chant the minimum amount of 16 rounds.So just some foolish people can bark at the moon....or elect a jagad guru....even though now we have not heard of them for 15 odd years.Being fulltime devotees is different than these kanistha groups...who have radically changed Prabhupadas mood and preaching style.The haribols were never advanced enough to preach in Prabhupadas mood of demons and devotees.Hence from hundreds of devotees in the south pacific to ....almost nil!You become an archarya by pleasing your guru by surrender.....to please him.Which siddha swarupa never did!He had a huge desire to keep his small position as a guru....in a small pond ,rather than help his disciples.He stopped them from preaching the maha mantra.....therefore he performed violence ....and was content to cheat his disciples by giving them other less sanctioned mode of approaching Krishna.They never surrendered to srila Prabhupada.He....siddha swarupa das,actually initiated within the prescene of srila Prabhupada......which is offensive When told to follow Madhudwisa swami he refused because he could not even contemplate actually being humble.Such fringe groups are for those like you bhakta Rodney .....Who want to be cheated....they are not part of our sampradaya.Otherwise he should wear dhoti and tilaka,carry a danda and ....shave the head....ect.But he always thought he new better......He merely wants the prestige of being a guru connected to Srila AC Bhaktivedanta swami.....However he does not do as his guru has done....just changing.....exploiting ...this is the american disease.

Yes urmila devi dasi went to siddhaswarupa das...centres...ccd prabhu.Maybe she can preach to them as we do not appreciate this american nonsense of women sitting on vyasasans to preach to men.....Unless it is sri Jahanavi mata ...the wife of Sri Nityananda Prabhu.We are not so weak as to let this anything goes mentality to warp our perspectives and lessen the authentic vedic culture.

The paramahamsadefinition ....in our line was established by srila Bhaktisiddanta saraswati takura .Who was ferociously strict about chanting 64 rounds a day! His Swan like preachers were instructed to carry a tri-danda and begging pot!Go door to door begging .....while austerity was seen as a wonderful asset.Such behaviour was an attempt to develop fearlessness.He siddha swarupa das... must preach the proper gaudiya siddhanta......not change it like Siddha swarupa das has....he is not a Paramahamsa in our line.Read the brahma-samita...by srila Bhaktisiddanta saraswati takura.He is not part of a hippy sampradaya.He was a nastika Brahmacari.......no room for this nonsene comprimising spirit.Sorry but 1 or two regulative principles is just nonsense.

> american nonsense of women sitting on vyasasans to preach to men....

He he... it gives you away.

Pranams and excuse me Sri Govinda Das Prabhu, I don'92t know so many things. You must at least be to the level of madyama devotee so please be compassionate to a kanista like myself Thank you for informing me of my spiritual status and my desire to be cheated. So far no one has given me such status. Now I know that at least I am some kind of a Vaishnava. Thank you very much. I will do my best to improve from this point.

I asked for some information on how the group or how the leader in particular deviated.

1. Please be kind enough to clarify what part of ISKCON Jagad Guru has gone in the opposite direction. Many have gone in the opposite direction. Please be more specific and detailed on what he chose to do the opposite of.

2. If J.G. is a bonafide guru then it is his perquisite concerning the number of rounds he gives his followers. Some in the Gaudiya Math claim Srila Prabhupada deviated. It is a kanistha mentality to argue over such details. According to Siddhanta the number of rounds given falls into the category of a detail that may change according to time place and circumstance. Therefore if he gives less rounds that could not be considered a deviation from the sampradaya. A bonafide acharya never changes any ABSOLUTE truths. However he MAY change many details. He may change many things according to his own mood. The mood of Srila Prabhupada was quite different than that of his guru. He changed quite a lot of details. The same argument you are using on this one can be used against Srila Prabhupada.

3. Please explain to me what Srila Prabhupadas mood of '93devotees and demons'94 is and how they deviated that way. Maybe you have something here.

4. You say he initiated within the presence of Srila Prabhupada. That would surely be a deviation. But in the letter above Srila Prabhpada says, '93Regarding Siddhasvarupananda, these things which you have heard are simply rumor and there is no substance. Siddhasvarupa does not want to take disciples..'94 If you have more evidence that in fact he did initiate disciples please let us see it. That would constitute a deviation. But Srila Prabhupada says he was not initiating and that was just a rumor. Please give us the proof.

5. How is a shaved head and carrying a danda a must to be a follower of Srila Prabhupada? George Harrison got plenty of people chanting but no shaved head or danda. Gaura Kisora Das Babaji and many leaders prior to him did not carry a danda or waterpot. In fact the practice had disappeared until the advent of Sarasvati Thakur. Again some say the greata Thakur deviated by bringing back sannyasa. I dont think you have anything on this one.

6. What women sits on the Vyasasana? That would be a deviation.

I look forward to some concrete evidence of deviation if it exists and thanks for taking the time to help me.

correction... question six is supposed to end with a question mark..

6. What women sits on the Vyasasana? That would be a deviation?

>What women sits on the Vyasasana? That would be a deviation?

Why that would be a deviation?

.they are not part of our sampradaya.Otherwise he should wear dhoti and tilaka,carry a danda and ....shave the head....ect.But he always thought he new better......He merely wants the prestige of being a guru connected to Srila AC Bhaktivedanta swami.....However he does not do as his guru has done....just changing.....exploiting ...this is the american disease.

The above quote by sri govinda das describes Hrdayananda so I suppose according to him Hrdayananda is a changing and exploiting diseased imposter. Then why is he sanctioned by ISKCONs GBC to continue acting as a sannyasi and initiating guru? If you criticize and condemn Siddhaswarup on these charges then you have to apply the same standards to Hrdayananda and others who are in positions of influence and leadership. No?

Actually modern day ISKCON is much closer to Siddhas group then it was way back when. Certainly not everyone here can say that every ISKCON man shaves the head and lives in the temple. Hey they would even select a GbC man knowing they do not follow some of the regs. That should say something.

I understand, that just like our ISKCON, they teach the Jiva Fell from the pastimes of the Lord. They are the only other group in the world who teaches like that. All the other Sampradayas, the Gaudiya Math etc. do not teach like that. I also understand that just like our ISKCON they frown on anyone seeking help outside the institution. In other words siksa is only allowed within thier Science of Identity Institute. It seems they are way closer to our standard than any others. Aside from the externals. I also know for a fact some devotees chant some of those mantras Jagad Guru made up, even at Sunday programs in ISKCON. I just dont like it when the pot calls the kettle black.

Firstly Bhakta Rodney ...please accept my kind regards,i have little time for gurus who allow their disciples to call them jagad guru....who have fallen down from their sannyasi -renounced status of life.Such concoctedparamahamsatitles are not reflective of the original mentality and genuine intentions of srila Bhaktisiddanta saraswati takura. .......in other words,the old fashioned term is ......he...the sanyasis has swallowed his own vomit! .Getting married merely proves the gentleman is not a Paramahamsa!......yes it is indeed good to be be honest....but by adjusting ....watering down the unique spiritual emphasis present,which was left by his divine grace srila Prabhupada we are prone to mix and match.....something which his divine grace detested!

Firstly it is generally not accepted etiquette for brahmacaris to sit infront of women.....and directly look into their faces....While they preach to them.Infact when i was a humble brahmacari...we were infact trained to stay attached to serving our guru and only..... male devotee association only.Yes women can sit on the vyasasan and preach to women......however any sincere male devotee is generally a fool if he does such a thing....unless he is sri Ramanada ray of the sri chaitanya caritamrita pastimes.

For your personal refferences i would suggest you read hauri sauri prabhus recollections.....of Srila Prabhupadas visits to new zealand.Where srila Prabhupada personally suggests to madhudwisa swami that siddhaswarupa das never truly surrendered.....but he is coming to us....iskcon .We are not going to him!So we should encourage his group.

Our AC Bhaktivedanta swami Prabhupada was uniquely qualified .....i am sad to say few of the gaudiya math line have truly appreciated his sublimely empowered position.They have been completely unable to develop their own preaching bridgeheads.....or other suitable preaching platform without stealing our devotees,neither have they the proper understanding of yukta -vairagya or the demons and devotees flavour.....which is unique pertinent within our empowered Bhaktivedanta book trust books.Hence they severely struggle in the western world ,unfortunately resorting to dishonest methods in our south pacific zone.

We firstly are concerned wether siddha swarupa prabhu.....is part of iskcon?The obvious answer is no!Having been around many haribol devotees since the late seventies i am personally conversant with their mood and style of preaching.They attracted many devotees initially when they baulked at the austerity involved in direct book distribution and sober mood of following 4 regulative principles.When i personally went on harinam....up queen street,in Auckland city or george street sydney.....on a friday night,we were shocked to see the large numbers of Flower power haribol devotees coming the oppersite way.Infact some off us naturally thought we were part of the small faction......and they were the head office!.....However they have significantly changed their modes of nature interpretations of krishna conciousness to suit the market! Infact i was witness to such devotional adjustments .....regularly.Over time they attempted to attack iskcon devotees......verbally and sometimes physically,thankfully they learnt their lessons with explosives and quietly dissolved over time.Personal opinions aside,they were unable to commit sincerely back then because they were more concerned about how they felt....if it was comfitable to their senses.Hence they were unable to perform much austerity in their attempts to please krishna.At one time .....being repeatedly asked wether they were hare krishnas they decided to stop comgregational chanting of hare krishna!

Concerning his initiations ....when in the presence of your own diksa guru,the disciples are to be brought to him.Which was the actual case here in New Zealand when srila Prabhupada ,gurukripa swami and madhudwisa swami were present on our shores.In other words siddha swarupa das was a sanyasis then .He was initiating devotees already before coming to take shelter of srila Prabhupada.Since he was breaking vaisnava etiquete,he resolved to stop further initiations at the bequest of srila Prabhupada and bring future initiatives to the direct shelter of srila Prabhupada himself....This is a rough appreciation of the actual event however after my christmas marathon service Bhakta Rodney prabhu....i will be able to supply sufficent detail once i am back home with my own library and my own extensive computer devotional histories.

Actually bhakta Rodney Prabhu.....our disciplic line is not a diksa line in essence.Srila Bhaktisiddanta incorporated certain uttama devotional sentiments into our paramahamsa ....bhagavat line.In laymans terms ....not all the diksa gurus are present on the recent accepted parampara line,mainly because srila Bhaktisiddanta saraswati refused to accept certain guru were infact qualified and genuine in their personal realisations.Hence his commanding presence has indeed left its huge impact on our uniquely iskcon gaudiya heritage.

So he fell down from Sannyasa and married a disciple. Certainly that is a deviation. That he watered down the process is another deviation. That he never actually surrendered to Srila Prabhupada is another.

Why doesn'92t any of our leaders challenge these charlatans! Instead they turn a blind eye. Another big Gaudiya Math Guru who took at least 1,000 of our devotees and turned them against ISKCON is being courted by our leaders!!! They grovel at his feet!!!! That guru brings the most intimate pastimes of Krishna into the open and now devotees who can'92t even control sex desire think they are qualified for Gopi Bhava!!!

So sometimes I wonder if our own leaders are any better than a Siddhaswarup. Excuse me for the offense if it is one.

"""This is a rough appreciation of the actual event however after my christmas marathon service Bhakta Rodney prabhu....i will be able to supply sufficent detail once i am back home with my own library and my own extensive computer devotional histories."""

I would very much appreciate that. These things should be verified for the future.

yes you can be a follower without a bald head.....however to be his foremost servant and intimate disciple,i would humbly suggest you need to do as he did himself.Srila Prabhupada wore sikha and shaved up!Hence i personally have also done since initiated back in 1980.Such externals are important for the more sincere who want to tread the path of the mahajanas.Such as Srila Bhaktisiddanta saraswati takura.Siddha swarupa prabhu was not an intimate servant of our srila Prabhupada.He was not an iskcon man!He was not interested in personally submitting his authority....and actually surrendering to the iskcon GBC.Which even srila Prabhupada personally accepted he was a member of!

Actually Bhakta Rodney prabhu.....on this site there are several sincere genuine devotees.My personal favourite siksa gurus are Veda Prabhu....Kula-pavanna prabhus ,with some inspiring knowledgable banter being displayed by ccd prabhu.Your feelings are natural ....however it is time in iskcon to become a cultured and hopefully sastra chaksusdevotee.Thus being able to see through the teachings of bhagavad gita ....and srimad bhagavatam you will become steadfast and staunch.Such great souls are in severe shortage,and in my humble opinion what the world truly is in need of!

I know the Haribolers "Gurukulis" run a animation series called Ninjai and also a video series called Karmakula
http://www.ninjai.com/

They did not appreciate me pointing out the similarities of their cartoon to Vedic/Krishna culture. In the cartoon the boy vegetarian ninja, Ninjai, offers his food to God. He talks about Karma. He is looking for a guy named Maha. On one episode he stops his heart by meditation and prayer and taken to a place where he meets this Maha. On the way he passes a temple that looks exactly like the Jagannatha temple. The logo as you will immediately notice is Hanuman. Also before each cartoon he states "Who am I, Where did I come from?" (Prayers of Brahma?) They run a nice discussion group on their site but dont like it if anyone points out that cartoon is specifically Krishna related they will kick you out.

If Ninjai passes the temple of Jagannatha and then meets this Maha I think that could not be Krishna he met. Sounds like somebodies fertile brain (imagination). Sounds like they are making it up as they go, using Vedic knowledge to achieve some success in the cartoon world but not wanting to give credit where it should be given.

and if they kick the Vaishnavas off the forum for being honest I consider that offensive.

> if anyone points out that cartoon is specifically Krishna related they will kick you out.

You can point it out on other forums (like imdb), if you want.

Rodney: This type of hidden inspiration is quite common in the movie industry. But kicking someone out sounds off.

[quote][cite] portnoy:[/cite]Here is their official website:

http://www.scienceofidentity.org/[/quote]

I invite anybody to check the section religious fanaticism.

What an absolute load of nonsense. How anybody can suggest this man is anything but a cheater is beyond me. Where did the money for his big house come from?

[quote][cite] Rodney:[/cite]and if they kick the Vaishnavas off the forum for being honest I consider that offensive.[/quote]

Is it because theyre a bunch of oddballs who follow some guy? How dare you offend Guru Dave!

> How dare you offend Guru Dave!

Are you talking about Nrsimha-Dave who is in England and who knows that your broke some instruments in Brighton temple?

You should check out this section: http://www.scienceofidentity.org/about_jagad_guru
where Siddha clearly identifies himself as as Vaishnava and proclaims himself to be a "humble disciple of this greatest of scholars and devotee in modern times (Srila Prabhupada)". I have no idea why some of you guys see him as a charlatan and deviant. Srila Prabhupada never rejected him as a disciple. He has his own preaching strategy but to me the only question is: "Is it effective?" Does it turn people into devotees of Krsna? From my personal experience with his disciples, the answer is "yes". The rest is between him, his guru, and Krsna.

>Is it effective?

According to Urmila they are very successful, its expanding and yes people become devotees. Who said he was a charlatan? He is a schism, so is Trippurari Sw etc but schisms are often are very successful.

Like different branches of the same tree?

If he is bona-fide why do people say he is a charlatan? Does that mean if they say that, THEY must be the charlatans? Cause if that is true you have to through out a great percentage of ISKCON gurus. Why did Srila Prabhupada say he is not a pure devotee?
Whay did Srila Prabhupada ask him not to make a faction? if he is so bonafide?

Kula Pavana and ccd,

Are you saying we should discount the fact he gave up sannyasa and married a disciple? Because if we accept that he is a bona-fide acharya we must accept his behavior is correct.

My friend tells me he gave up sannyasa because it got in the way of his preaching!!! Sannyasa was instituted for the sole purpose of preaching!!! But now it is a hindrance???

So you think an acharya can give up sannyasa huh????

[quote][cite] Rodney:[/cite]
Are you saying we should discount the fact he gave up sannyasa and married a disciple? Because if we accept that he is a bona-fide acharya we must accept his behavior is correct.

My friend tells me he gave up sannyasa because it got in the way of his preaching!!! Sannyasa was instituted for the sole purpose of preaching!!! But now it is a hindrance???

So you think an acharya can give up sannyasa huh????[/quote] In my view he is a guru, not some great acharya in the traditional Gaudiya sense. But who knows, maybe he will be one some day? ----------------

Some 90% of those who got sannyasa from Prabhupada fell down from their vows, with many falling rather badly and leaving Krsna consciousness. Giving sannyasa to young westerners was a bad idea, and SP himself admitted as much, proclaiming in 1977 that there is to be no more sannyasa in his movement, suggesting that they all get married. Here some quotes: ----------------------- Srila Prabhupada Conversation, January 7, 1977, Bombay:
Prabhupada: "If you talk in the modern society they will laugh: "What nonsense this man is... By sex life one becomes conditioned. " They cannot understand. Hare Krsna... (japa) This should be strictly outlawed, no more sannyasis. And those sannyasis who have fallen, you get them married, live like a... No more this showbottle, cheating. It is very ludicrous. Even there is a promise that "We shall not fall down again," that is also not believable. What is the use? Better go and speak philosophy in your grhastha dress, not this dress, but you have nice coat, pants, gentleman. Who says no? I never said. Rather I shall be glad to see that up-to-date gentlemen with tilaka and sikha are speaking. That is very prestigious everywhere'85" ----------------------------------
"And this kind of hypocrisy--they have taken sannyasa and mixing with woman. This is not to be allowed. If you want woman you get yourself married, live respectfully. We have no objection. But this hypocrisy should be stopped. There have been so many fallen down. First of all there will be no sannyasi anymore. I have got very bad experience."
(Room Conversation, 7th January, 1977)

[quote][cite] Rodney:[/cite]Kula Pavana and ccd,

Are you saying we should discount the fact he gave up sannyasa and married a disciple? [/quote] That is not even a fall down. Prabhupada encouraged some of his sannyasis to get married (Rupanuga and Pusta Krishna) and married himself Bali mardana (some GV fanatics did not like it;-) Rasikananda and others in our line gave it up, so that is not a reason to reject a person, we have ISKCON gurus who marry a disciple (RSd). That just does not seem to be a problem unless you are a fanatic.

[quote][cite] Rodney:[/cite]
So you think an acharya can give up sannyasa huh????[/quote] Dont know if he is an acharya;-) but Nityananda, Rasikananda, Shyamananda gave up nyasa and got married. They are acharyas. We should be careful about accusing sannyasis who got married. Some of them are very nice souls and are welcomed by Prabhupada.

Can you give refs that Nityananda, Rasikananda and Shyamananda were sannyasis?

Nityananda Prabhu maintained Himself as a brahmacari; He never took sannyasa. CC 1.5.149 p., also CC 2.3.85 p.

They were mendicants (nyasi) or bhiksu (for Nityananda see (CB Adi. 9. 134, CB Madhya 3. 78 CB Madhya 13.15-19) and not in the service of a guru (brahmacaria). I am aware that BR Sridhara Swami (and his followers based on purports of BBST on CC) disprove that Nityananda was sannyasi. But Prabhupada used it as an example to Rupanuga and others. I dont know if all these nitya-siddhas they took ekadanda and certainly none of them were tri-dandi bhiksu (what we call sannyasa in ISKCON and Gaudiya Math). Neither did Sri Jiva, Rupa, Krisnadasa Kaviraja or Raghunatha dasa Goswamis took this kind or type of sannyasa but they all were mendicants living on donations or traveling (and not in the care of a guru, like a brahmacari). There are some indications that Sanatana did take it but then became a what we today call a babaji later. The issue is that renuciation is not of an essence but is supportive to bhakti. BTW Chotta Haridas was not a sannyasi, Haridas is not a sannyasi name (nor is chotta ;-).

I meant formal sannyas. They were more like babajis.

[quote][cite] VEDA:[/cite]I meant formal sannyas. They were more like babajis.[/quote] You are right -- formal sannyas is not really part of our sampradaya that we have until BSST for en exception for a couple of cross pollination cases. But even then, it became part of daivi-varnasrama preaching of Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura -- best brahmana-sannyasi is the model human being being a Vaisnava. You see once there is claim that a person is beyond VA -- it is hard to argue except for calling them sahajiyas;-) but I hardly imagine that Siddhasvarupa is a sahajiya, Prabhupada never indicated that he was even after he got married -- but certainly we should check with his wife first=)

I dont think Bhakitisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakur would approve. He got married after Srila Prabhupada left, so Srila Prabhupada had no say in it at all. I believe Srila Prabhupada was disgusted and was saying things tongue and cheek when he said his followers were not up to par and could not be propper sannyasis and should get married.

I am not saying he could not be a good soul, or even a guru" or that he is a demon. But I do not believe he set the proper example as an acharya.

One can be guru and not acharya. I think he should drop all the titles. I do not believe he is a paramahamsa or a Prabhupada.

My freind tells me that it is not true he was accepting disciples while Srila Prabhupada was alive. BUT he did accept worship. sat on the Vyasasan and started his own mission a year before Srila Prabhupada left.

Nityananda was not a sannyasi according to Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakur. All the acharyas in the GM are adamant that those who say he was are sahajiyas except Narayana Maharaja, and well that tells a lot does it not?

As far as Rasikananda and Syamananda I would like to see the sastric evidence.

Bhaktivinoda Thakur set the example of what it means to be a householder guru and acharya. He supported the sadhus. He was not a professional guru making a living on his disciples backs. A householder is meant to have a family and support the family himself, unless he is a King in a Vedic culture. Otherwise we end up with professional gurus.

If one is able to admit they took sannyasa without the qualification, if they take a humble position a little in the back with a lowered head then I think they should be shown due honor. But that is not the case. Just the opposite. Not only no lowered head but instead we are supposed to accept that he sets the standard.

Anyway I am surprised that ISKCON devotees would defend Siddhaswarup Prabhu. It shows you must be more magnanimous. According to him there is not even one single bona-fide guru in all of ISKCON. He says they are all just a bunch of ecclesiastical priests no better than the Catholic Church.

ccd says Siddhaswarupa P. getting married is not even a fall down and cites some examples of SP getting his sannyasis married as evidence. I think it is poor evidence considering the reason he got them married is because they were not fit for sannyasa, they could not live up to the standard. He gave them a chance and they failed. A Paramahamsa does not need to be married especially after taking sacred vows to the contrary. It is not fanatical in any way to uphold high standards and call a spade a spade when they are trounced on in the name of progress and innovation.

"We shall not in any way sacrifice our standard. We must maintain our principles strictly. This dressing with long hair and karmi clothes is the tendency to once again become hippies. Because before you were hippies, that tendency is still there. So this should be stopped immediately."
Srila Prabhupada

ccd is definitely wrong in my humble opinion......siddha swarupa prabhu is still a devotee whom we should appreciate.....and some attempts should be made by his godbrothers to bring him back into the proper devotional understandings,like has happened with devamrita maharaja and other New Vrindavan team members.The ISKCON movement though is really not meant to comprimise its standards ....as ccd has emotionally personalised his opinions into a mistakin and ill informed manner.....which is surprising and sadly inappropriate.

Siddha swarupa prabhu is really genuine to have kept on going ....year after year.However he is considered fallen having signifigantly had to marry and as a consequence failed to sustain his sanyasis vows.How he still allows his followers to keep on calling him jagad guru is amazing and a little sad.Our freind ccd prabhu is strictly wrong it does matter if you take sanyasis and fall down to once again swallow your own vomitin the form of sex life.
Our param guru srila Bhaktisiddanta saraswati maharaja was pivotal in his cross pollination approach as ccd prabhu refers to it as ....because he saw that the real preachers historically coming from the renounced order of sanyasis.He further empowered these sincere sadhakas by enabling them to chant mantras which were historically only for prospective uttama adhikari devotees once they took to the maha- bhagavat stage of life.However the nature of devotional service or the bhakti yoga process , is that it is so powerful that it empowers one to eventually succeed and acheive krishnas complete shelter eventually even if they signifigantly embarassed initially to follow regulative principles..So in the total picture .....krishna is only marginally interested in your status of life or ashram.However i doubt he would be pleased with another failure,which at its best is second rate success..So far our Goura-govinda maharaja,Bhakti tirtha maharaja and Tamala krishna goswami seem the most successful guru disciples of our srila AC Bhaktivedanta swami Prabhupada which spring to mind..

[quote][cite] sri_govinda_das:[/cite]The paramahamsadefinition ....in our line was established by srila Bhaktisiddanta saraswati takura .Who was ferociously strict about chanting 64 rounds a day! His Swan like preachers were instructed to carry a tri-danda and begging pot!Go door to door begging .....while austerity was seen as a wonderful asset.Such behaviour was an attempt to develop fearlessness.[/quote]

Which of the Iskcon Tri-Danda holders even have a begging pot, and how many go out door to door? In Iskcon the Tri-Danda has become a symbol of power, in Iskcon it implies wealth (they all seem to have bottomless banks accounts that allow them to jetset around the world, Power (most Tri-Danda holders have significant political power within Iskcon), Servants (most have a secretary/servant that wash their copens and prepare their extremely austere foodstuffs that often includes cans of fizzy drink and many items that only serve to enliven the senses)

So if Iskcon is following in the footsteps of the previous acharyas this is one example that shows a complete deviation.

I am not defending Chris Butler but Iskcon fundamentalists and fanatics have always had a problem with people who honestly said they love Krisha Conciousness, enjoy being a vegetarian but are not able to join up and live the life of a priest (its only in recent years they have finally woken up to the fact that most people cannot honestly live a priestly/brahminical life in the temple).

Iskcon has a huge history of kicking out anyone who wont totally surender to some power wielding corrupt temple president or regional archarya that has a questionable character, so these people left and joined up with someone who allowed them to continue with some measure of devotion. Its unfortunate that Iskcon kicked and pushed so many good people away simply because they were not cut out to be priests but were honest about it.

Actually my new freind ....manasi seva,please accept my kind regards.Feel free to become aquainted with a local sanyasis called Ramai swami who was recently the GBC chairman.He is extremely simple and genuine in his deamenour and nature.He has been asked to initiate and so far refuses because he is inadequate in his own opinion.He has always put devotees first ....as a consequence he has always been generous to a fault.His non-white man culture,in my view is thoroughly needed in our iskcon progressive societys future.Because he is so detached from the political iskcon structure, he was asked to continue in such a senior management positions regularly...... according to my many friends.
Our ISKCON is actually a worldwide society ,where variety is the spice of life.Hence having been kicked out of temples myself over the last thirty years once or twice ,since i was initiated i truly sympathise.However that is the price of being an individual and keeping ones views and opinions.... valid and out front in our societys ever changing environment. .Clashes of personality and vision are natural and will generally cause some form of grinding inconsistencies , enebriety and offense.But hopefully with the proper following of the morning program and taking the shelter of older more experienced devotees we will all benefit substantially.Such siksa gurus are the actual substance which allows the day to day efficent cohesion and loving devotional freindships to blossom and bloom. Thus allowing lesser personalitys to fit in even though they are thoroughly disqualified for spiritual life .

Also manasi seva , you seem to have a problem with Krishnas servants using krishnas wealth to serve him.It is his wealth.....krishnas, so what is the problem?Sadly such immature veiws show how far we as individuals need to progress.If you are sincere and attempt to please krishna .....wont he want to please his loving servant devotee.Why should the demons who kill cows,sell drugs ,drink and sell alcohol be the only ones to enjoy his wealth and opulence!Personally it is my experience that as devotees he,.....krishna is favourably disposed to his mature servants because they are sold out to him and are given greater opportunitys to push on his preaching movement as a consequence.Personally i jioned with the mood that iskcon was for serious full time devotees ,whom were able to fully surrender everything.Which is very rare and is not so cheap!...sa mahatma sudulabha.However others need shelter to be provided so find a siksa guru .....a local sadhu to personally serve.!This will very quickly please krishna ,and you will develop devotional qualities very rapdly.However my experience now is that there is a general lacking in sincerity and application from those whom approaching the iskcon society generally..

If you are not meant to be a front linepreacher ,or full time devotee ,become non-envious and serve sweetly the more empowered devotees by giving money and your time.Actually the real problem is most persons are not cured from their lower mode natures.Wish not to bow down regularly to the older servants of sri krishna chaitanya mahaprabhu.

I an truly sorry ,you feel fizzy drinks are a problem manasa seva prabhu,since even srila Prabhupada ate chocolate and drank sevens up ,wonderfully on many occasions.However we personally used to mix with the haribol devotees of siddhaswarupa prabhu many years ago.So maybe his slower pace preaching vehicle might infact suit your mood and particular nature better.
Iskcon was never meant for changing the philosophy and mantras haphasardly and capriously in my humble opinion!We were the frontline sankirtan solidiers whose personal austere living style meant i look forward to sleeping literally under a tree in a park,some thirty odd years later!.My sons and daughters are also doing a similar thing presently within my association.I have literally carried on my brahmacari like lifestyle although i am saddled with considerable grhastha responsibilities .My christmas marathon will hopefully provide a substantial deposit for a bus for my siksa guru to preach from.

So sri govinda das prabhu, in regards to your comments abv how does one differenciate devotees who
use krsnas wealth to serve krsna and devotees who use krsnas name and wealth to serve themselves.

Manasi_Seva Prabhu makes some very interesting points. I must admit he has caused me to think more deeply on the matter.

Sri Govinda Prabhu- I agree that our Siddhaswarup Prabhu must be genuine to one degree or the other. I have come to find out my friend is a lot closer to that group than I knew. He says that Siddhaswarupa Prabhu has actually never had a sexual relationship with his wife. They have been vanaprastha from the git-go. He teaches if one is married and it fails they should give up the idea of marriage and simply serve Krishna one-pointed. He only recommends, like himself, a vanaprastha situation if one marries for a second time. They have their argument that he had so many woman disciples it was easier to instruct them all from a more household position. Doesn'92t it say somewhere that one should accept a guru according to their status in life? A householder should have a householder guru etc.? Now if he had gone back to gross sex life then perhaps that would be considered eating vomit. But then again he did break the vow and married life, even without sex, can be pretty entangling, the sweet words of the wife, somebody always there etc. I am confused on that point.

I understand that a sannyasi should be very strict. But lets face reality. Very few were able to maintain their vows. Out of something like 60, only a handful of Srila Prabhupadas sannyasi disciples are left standing. As far as the current ones time will tell I guess. It seems to me the western world really is not molded to facilitate sannyasa life. It would be interesting to see how a sannyasi (in the west) who actually followed in the wake of Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakur, would fare on their own now-a-days. I think without a big organization to lean on most would be lost. Many are now equating ISKCON with the RamaKrishna Mission and I must admit some temples do look that way. I mean even in Vrindavan the school has a complete western curriculum, even teaching that Mother Theresa was a saint. It seems to me ISKCON is far from what it was when Srila Prabhupada was around.

I don'92t know perhaps our Siddhaswarup Prabhu will go down in history as an innovator, seeing earlier on what it took others decades later to realize.

hmm. I am not convinced either way.

Dear Sri Govinda, pamho

I was around when Ramai Swami (John Patane) totally supported Charlie Baccus then (Bhavananda Goswami the gay child molester).

You say "His non-white man culture,in my view is thoroughly needed in our iskcon progressive societys future"

I dont see what skin colour has to do with this issue we are discussing but remember one thing Ramai is from the white mans culture he is
not a native of the Indian Sub continent, he is right into Rock and Roll and and is an avid movie goer.

He also spends thousands upon thousands of Srila Prabhupadas money on his penchant for rock and roll musical instruments thats well known
ask any devotee in Australia.

Yes he may have some sort of a conscience when it comes to becoming an initiating guru within Iskcon and he may also know that
so many others know about his totally fake Sannyasi lifestyle.

Ramai is not an example I would use of a devotee who is some shining light example and have you heard his talks? He has such little knowledge
its embarrasing, and guess who gave him Sannyasa? Yes Charles Baccus (Bhavananda) the child molester also unqualified.

You say "Also manasi seva , you seem to have a problem with Krishnas servants using krishnas wealth to serve him"
Wow have you been asleep for that 20 years because you obviously missed the millions of dollars of misappropriation, that still continues
with gurus and sanyasis purchasing there own properties. At least Chris Butler started his own organisation and did not pilfer funds
from Srila Prabhupada.

I am not against any funds being used for preaching but it should all be transparent and accounted for and nothing should be used for
personal gain or profit or for some Sannyasis sense enjoyment.

My point is there are very strict rules for one entering the Sannyas order of life which include no access to money (hence the begging bowl and water pot), they
must also eat austerely and never alone. Iskcons use of the Sannyas order is a complete joke and it is a complete disortion of what the order was specifcally
meant for.

Chris Butler may have made mistakes and may not be a Jagat Guru, that I dont know I have never met him, but his attempts appear to be sincere, Iskcon (or some of its esteemed members) has fallen to such dark depths of sexually abusing its future generations (the children) so I dont think Iskcon is in any position to start pointing the finger these days.

You also say "However my experience now is that there is a general lacking in sincerity and application from those whom approaching the iskcon society generally.."
Thats funny one could easily use those words for many of its leaders, and maybe thats why they are attracting those types these days.

A few honest observations...

I know this devotee -- we go fishing together on Saturdays... he always wears dark glasses, he is a friend of the family.

"I am not against any funds being used for preaching but it should all be transparent and accounted for and nothing should be used for
personal gain or profit or for some Sannyasis sense enjoyment.

"My point is there are very strict rules for one entering the Sannyas order of life which include no access to money (hence the begging bowl and water pot), they
must also eat austerely and never alone. Iskcons use of the Sannyas order is a complete joke and it is a complete disortion of what the order was specifcally
meant for." manasi_seva

My understanding is that money used in Krishnas service is Laxmi. Money used for ones sense gratification is a form of Kama and very binding karmically. If a devotee takes money that is meant to be used for Krishna and uses it for himself the karma is much greater and he has cheated those who gave it to him.

As far as sannyas, they should be examples, not just figureheads accepting everyones service, they should be inspiring everyone by their own service. I dont know but sometimes I look around at some and they look so spotlessly dressed it appears a fashion. And I agree the danda has turned inot a symbol of power not humility. Sannyasis should get down and do the service, get some dirt on that clean saffron, that goes for the brahmacairs too. Srila Prabhupada did not like showbottles.
If they are going to be using funds for sense gratification then they should follow the example of Chris Butler and just get married, then it is not such an illicit affair!!

All Glories to Srila Prabhupada! Hare Krishna.

According to the limited information given on the website of Siddhaswarup, he expresses the most basic teachings of Srila Prabhupada creatively in his own words, but without authoritative shastric quotes; which is not the supremely attractive method of genuine Sri Guru Acaryas in Sriman Mahaprabhus Sri Guru disciplic succession.

He will appeal to persons wanting a guru for social prestige as well as new age harmonists, frustrated materialists, philosophers and jnanis mostly, as he speaks of social harmony and liberation: realization of the soul being separate from the body; but does not teach the theology of unconditional devotional service unto the lotus feet of Sri Guru and Sri Gauranga, the Supreme Personality of Godhead.

He functions very much like other ISKCON kanistha gurus but he is the separated brother and does not cooperate with ISKCON; he has what they have without their interference. His greatest contribution is teaching the basic philosophy which might lead to higher aspirations on the part of his followers, but might not because of contamination or mental satisfaction; it is good he is not speaking about topics way above his or his followers level of advancement like some others do.

His greatest flaws are the same as his brothers--that he does not give constant credit to Srila Prabhupada as the source of all his knowledge, advancement and very existence, nor teach others to connect with Sri Guru within by worship of His external feature of Srila Prabhupada--rather he takes the honor, love and worship that is due to Srila Prabhupada for himself. Nor does he promote association with Sri Guru through the unchanged books of His Divine Grace Srila Prabhupada. His artificial employment of highest Vaisnava honorific titles, which he is not qualified to accept, is misleading and lowers respect for those honorific titles in the world. Pretense=Kali. There are a lot of gurus like him.

There are many artificial diamonds in the marketplace, and most people buy them. That does not mean there are no genuine diamonds available.

Very articulate post Maah. It does seem like the majority of gurus are not all they are cracked up to be and many who criticize Siddhaswarupananda are no better, sometimes even worse. Who would you consider to be the diamonds, the real deal?

All glories to Srila Prabhupada!

Hare Krishna,

Diamonds are His Divine Grace A C Bhaktivedanta Swami Srila Prabhupada and Everyone who Srila Prabhupada mentions, quotes and designates as Acarya, in whichever sampradaya, including those great devotees whose songs are in the authorized songbook, including the parampara succession from Lord Krishna in Bhagavad Gita and from Sriman Caitanya Mahaprabhu. Some are Acaryas in Lila with the Lord and some are functioning in succession.

We get knowledge from so many places these days; many are satisfied with knowledge and the sharing of it, but Who can actually link us to our eternal Spiritual Master and Sri Krishna? Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakur says, "No jiva can be the medium of the service of the Absolute to another jiva. The Absolute alone may communicate His service to the separable constituents of Himself." This should be understood and accepted in full faith. That is the level of guru we need, One Who is the medium of the service of the Absolute, One Who is the source of our very separate parts of Himself, Who is not a jiva.

"O my Lord! Transcendental poets and experts in spiritual science could not fully express their indebtedness to You, even if they were endowed with the prolonged lifetime of Brahma, for You appear in two features '97 externally as the acarya and internally as the Supersoul to deliver the embodied living being by directing him how to come to You" Sri Caitanya Caritamrta Adi 1.48

"One should know the instructing spiritual master to be the Personality of Krishna. Lord Krishna manifests Himself as the Supersoul and as the greatest devotee of the Lord"). Adi 1.47

"The greatest devotee" is is in line with the understanding that One of the disciples is the next Acarya. So are the references made by Srila Prabhupada to His needing just One Moon, not many stars.

In a letter to Rupanuga, Srila Prabhupada describes the desire of His Spiritual Master, Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakur for selecting the bona fide Acarya in the society: "His idea was acarya was not to be nominated amongst the governing body. He said openly you make a GBC and conduct the mission. So his idea was amongst the members of GBC who would come out successful and self effulgent acarya would be automatically selected."

But they did not select Sri Krishna in the successful and self-effulgent form of the best devotee, Srila Prabhupada, rather they considered Him as Swamiji or friend or godbrother or less than them and worse. And ISKCON made the same mistake. Which Srila Prabhupada warns us not to do and we did/do it in consultation with His so-called godbrothers. B.t.w., Srila Prabhupadas so-called godbrothers do not function as Sri Guru. The rest of the letter to Rupanuga Prabhu reads,

"So Sridhara Maharaja and his two associate gentlemen unauthorizedly selected one acarya and later it proved a failure. The result is now everyone is claiming to be acarya even though they may be kanistha adhikari with no ability to preach. In some of the camps the acarya is being changed three times a year. Therefore we may not commit the same mistake in our ISKCON camp. Actually amongst my Godbrothers no one is qualified to become acarya. So it is better not to mix with my Godbrothers very intimately because instead of inspiring our students and disciples they may sometimes pollute them. This attempt was made previously by them, especially Madhava Maharaja and Tirtha Maharaja and Bon Maharaja but somehow or other I saved the situation. This is going on. We shall be very careful about them and not mix with them. This is my instruction to you all. They cannot help us in our movement, but they are very competent to harm our natural progress. So we must be very careful about them."

Sri Guru disciplic succession continues in the present day and will continue; when it is broken Sri Krishna personally reinstates it.

"As described in the Fourth Chapter, the parampara system of disciplic succession for the understanding of Bhagavad-gita was lost, and therefore Krsna reestablished that disciplic succession with Arjuna because He considered Arjuna His intimate friend and a great devotee. Therefore, as stated in our Introduction to Gitopanisad, Bhagavad-gita should be understood in the parampara system. When the parampara system was lost, Arjuna was again selected to rejuvenate it. The acceptance of Arjuna of all that Krsna says should be emulated; then we can understand the essence of Bhagavad-gita, and then only can we understand that Krsna is the Supreme Personality of Godhead." Purport Bhagavad Gita As It Is by Srila Prabhupada 10.14

Q: How important is disciplic succession?

"This absolute position of Krsna is difficult to understand for any person who is not a devotee of Krsna in the parampara (disciplic succession)" Preface to Srimad Bhagavad Gita As It Is, unchanged edition by His Divine Grace Srila Prabhupada

"This supreme science was thus received through the chain of disciplic succession, and the saintly kings understood it in that way." Bhagavad Gita 4.2

"The Lord therefore advises us to approach a bona fide spiritual master in the line of disciplic succession from the Lord Himself. No one can be a bona fide spiritual master without following this principle of disciplic succession. The Lord is the original spiritual master, and a person in the disciplic succession can convey the message of the Lord as it is to his disciple" purport Bhagavad Gita. 4.34

"This is called the parampara system, acceptance of the disciplic succession. Unless one is in the disciplic succession, he cannot understand Bhagavad-gita" purport Bhagavad Gita 10. 12-13

"To act in Krsna consciousness, one has to follow the leadership of authorized persons who are in a line of disciplic succession as explained in the beginning of this chapter. The system of Krsna consciousness was first narrated to the sun-god, the sun-god explained it to his son Manu, Manu explained it to his son Iksvaku, and the system is current on this earth from that very remote time. Therefore, one has to follow in the footsteps of previous authorities in the line of disciplic succession. Otherwise even the most intelligent men will be bewildered regarding the standard actions of Krsna consciousness" Purport Bhagavad Gita.4.16

"If one does not come to the disciplic succession, he cannot hear Krsna; therefore his knowledge is always imperfect, at least as far as understanding Bhagavad-gita is concerned." Purport Bhagavad Gita 18.75

A.: The only way i know of to find that diamond, the real deal, is to want Him, to pray sincerely and repeatedly, to cry to Srila Prabhupada to show Him to us. We have so much knowledge at our disposal and so much ignorance too. What to speak of Who the Acarya might be, even the concept of there being a current Acarya or single Acarya is in dispute. Since no one but the Supersoul knows the heart and mind of another, and since those who appear to be genuine, but are materially motivated and contaminated, want to play as if they were mahabhagavats, the Real Deal is not welcome in our society. He will be available for those miserable, helpless souls who have no other shelter, but society at large cannot recognize Him. Those who are unable to evidence the sincerity, misery and hopelessness necessary to move the Supersoul to show Him His external feature, should faithfully and humbly follow Srila Prabhupadas program as much as they are able, burn out their desires and gradually purify themselves through work and devotion in practice. They will get a better body next life--as long as they do not offend the true Vaisnavas. The illusion the society maintains is that anyone next-in-line is qualified guru in the parampara, but the fact is that the last in-line is One, all the others are either competitors, ignorant or servants of Him, depending on their choice. Its not that anyone who instructs is the Personality of Lord Krishna, it is that Lord Krishna instructs through the form He Himself chooses.

"The Supreme Lord is not obtained by means of expert explanations, vast intelligence or even much hearing. He is obtained only by one whom He Himself chooses. To such a person, He manifests His own form." CC M 20.248

Out of many thousands among men, one may endeavor for perfection, and of those who have achieved perfection, hardly one knows Me in truth.
Bhagavad Gita As It Is 7.3

Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakur "The guru is the embodiment of the manifestation of the divinity to the pure receptive spiritual essence of the disciple. The guru is the real and original recipient of the Truth. He communicates his knowledge to the disciple. The disciple is too small a particle to be able by himself to receive the whole truth. He is enabled to receive Him through the power of the guru. The guru, as it were, takes the disciple by the hand and guides his every step on the plane of the Absolute. It is perpetual tutelage on the part of the disciple."

Thus He appears again and again in disciplic succession to perpetually tutelage His surrendered disciple.

SB 11.7.46: A saintly person, just like fire, sometimes appears in a concealed form and at other times reveals himself. For the welfare of the conditioned souls who desire real happiness, a saintly person may accept the worshipable position of spiritual master, and thus like fire he burns to ashes all the past and future sinful reactions of his worshipers by mercifully accepting their offerings.

Srila Prabhupada didnt produce even one paramahamsa?

Sorry manasi seva that we have so little in common....My freind Ramai swami has been humble and consistent in his service to srila Prabhupada his guru for over thirty five years!I know because he has been my superior in ISKCON since i jioned in late 1979 and was initiated in 1980.And yes he has a mentality that if you are a kanistha devotee who is unable to see the good in others like yourself he will keep the teachings simple for those whom are obviously envious and are but crows.You are prone too find fault ....by listing bhavannada prabhu,however he is attempting to rectify himself and is glorious because he is not a coward ....and is willing to submit to his many wonderful godbrothers whom are gloriously providing him with service to their all merciful guru.The iskcon founder archarya, srila AC Bhaktivedanta swami Prabhupada....
As iskcon servants we have a common culture fashioned over numerous devotional pastimes and sankirtan marathons.Iskcon has many paramahamsas but you need a non-envious spirit and service attitude to perceive their many saintly qualities....which manasi seva you no longer possess unfortunately.But simply try to wash the pots in your nearest iskcon centre.....there is still some hope if you a concerted effort to just stop criticising your superiors.

Maah prabhu your strategy to bore devotees with your lack of substance by providing almost endless quotes bordering on impersonalism, while labeling iskcon gurus as kanisthas revels your devotionally deficiencies.Your concocted idea ....that iskcon gurus are severely limited unless they are merely srila Prabhupadas shadows shows another impersonal perversion which frequents those who are not qualified sankirtan devotees.Your lack of honestly presenting your personal ideas and veiws in a simple brahminical manner fails to allow a genuine discussion to benifit others who are present. What do you hope to acheive.....how cannot hidding behind mirrors of quotes taken many times out of context..... to twist your sometimes insufficent veiws acheive anything of substance and of genuine realisation to help devotees generally.Are you merely another ritvik babaji or merely another dissatified individual with another axe to grind with little or nil substance to offer.... as it seems to appear.....merely to haunt the younger devotees like bhakta RODNEY with your sad rhetoric and innuendo.!

All glories to Srila Prabhupada!

Hare Krishna. Sri Govinda das has soundly emphasized my main points.

To surrender unto Who the diamond is, you must pray for it, it will not be told to you; because the Truth is so detestable, and even a lowly nobody like myself who is simply carrying the message of the Absolute (either with or without quotes) for the benefit of possibly one soul who comes to this site now or in the future, is maligned. If the lowly messenger receives such a kick, will Sri Krishna subject His most dear devotee and direct representative to such abuse? Strangely, across the board, those who bought pieces of glass feel the compulsion to attack even the hope of a genuine diamond.

Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Prabhupada did not fail to produce one paramahansa. Envious, proud, so-called "devotees" failed/fail to recognize Him. Nor did our Srila AC Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada fail to produce one paramhansa. Again, envious, proud, so-called "devotees" failed/fail to recognize Him. Is the mercy manifestation of the Supreme Personality of Godhead meant to be exposed as a target for pseudo devotees to attack? He is meant for the few who really want something extraordinarily wonderful and rare.

He can be known by whom He Himself choses. And He reveals according to our helpless, miserable mood. Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakur has given us the mood in His Saranagati songs. Take advantage of those prayers, develop your pure loving service relationship with Sri Guru and Sri Gauranga. Become a genuine, non-envious, compassionate, self-realized member of Srila Prabhupadas society, preach potently by example from practical realization, not theoretical pretense, then go back to Home, back to Godhead. "This material world is no place for a gentleman." Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakur.

Maah, you again prove your incompetence. One cant glorify a guru by minimizing or offending his disciples.

"Actually," Prabhupada said, "this is a fact. One has to be blessed by a devotee to become a devotee. And he who is the servant of the servant of the servant'97one hundred times removed'97is not worse than one who directly serves the guru. If one thinks, Because I am direct servant, I am better than others, then he is not a Vaisnava. To offer ones respects to Guru and not to his disciples, this is wrong. This is not Vaisnava. One has to be humble and try to serve all Vaisnavas'97not some and not others." (Hari Sauri Dasa, A Transcendental Diary 1 - November 1975 - April 1976. TD 1-9: Sri Dhama Mayapur. January 28th, 1976.)

> Become a genuine, non-envious, compassionate, self-realized member of Srila Prabhupadas society, preach potently by example from practical realization, not theoretical pretense,

Kindly apply this to yourself to avoid offending others.

So Maah....you are telling me that Srila Sarasvati Thakur produced only one and our Srila Prabhupada only produced one?

All glories to Srila Prabhupada!

Hare Krishna. Look at the Divine Names going up the chain from Srila Prabhupada, what do you see? Names go one by one by one by one by one by one. "If I have to sit under a tree with just one sincere disciple, that will be all right. We do not require many stars, just one moon. One moon will light up the sky." quoted, Srila Prabhupada. Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakur produced only one Acarya, Srila Prabhupada. For more information on the other disciples of Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakur, read: http://krishna.org/ISKCON/WHTTHK/msg00095.html

Ritviks claim Srila Prabhupada says He is the last Acarya, there will not be another. They officiate as guru in the name of Prabhupada.

Narayana Maharajas group claim that numerous disciples of Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakur are Acaryas and their disciples are also Acarya, so he is too, although sometimes, to sequester the position from another angle, he has been known to concoct a guru-disciple relationship with Srila Prabhupada or claim that his guru, the maharaja who performed Srila Prabhupadas sannyas ceremony is Prabhupadas guru, though Srila Prabhupada only recognized Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakur as His Guru Maharaja, no one else.

ISKCON first went with zonal acaryas, following the advice of the Gaudiya Matha (against the orders of Srila Prabhupada), but the result of unqualified neophytes acting as Acarya was a huge disaster, so now ISKCON sort of balances between multiple mini-acarays and ritviks under Prabhupada conception, though some think Narayan Maharaja is the acarya.

The idea of actually identifying the successful and self-effulgent Acarya among the leaders of ISKCON is still an abomination to them, because the souls relationship with the Acarya is one of humble inquiry and menial service, birth after birth. Thinking they are equals or better than other disciples of Srila Prabhupada, they lack the motivation to realize they need the Acarya; they believe they know everything either individually or collectively and have already got Krishna and have set themselves up nicely as leaders and gurus.

When i experienced the pitiful condition of Srila Prabhupadas once-glorious movement--how the leaders had hidden the truth, diminished the authority of Srila Prabhupada, damaged the reputation of the society, twisted the philosophy, pretended to be something they were not, misused and abused the rank and file devotees, ruined the books, lost temples and created confusion and factions, and when i realized my own deplorable, helpless condition, i started to cry. I cried a lot and i prayed. What i have shared with you may be controversial and spiritually revolutionary, but it is not fraudulent, philosophically defective, nor is it theoretical.

Hare Krishna

Maah I appreciate you trying to help me but I don'92t see things the way you do. We are living in the environment created by our own actions. I simply cannot accept that the parampara is so confined as you see it. The Gaudiya Math like ISKCON made mistakes, but both are still producing Vaishnavas. We get a guru according to our own desire. Sometimes that necessitates lower Adhikari gurus. I think Guru Tattva is much more generous than you see it. I believe both Srila Sarasvati Thakur and Srila Prabhupada produced many pure devotees not just one or two. In the parampara the important gurus who made major contributions are listed, it doesn'92t mean they are the only ones. Major branches yes, but smaller branches are also existing and producing fruit. I believe we should take on our head whatever punishment we have coming and move forward learning from our mistakes. We have no own to blame but ourselves. Everything is pushing us towards the ultimate goal. The only thing we need to do is adjust ourselves to the environment, not try to control it OR condemn it.

> The idea of actually identifying the successful and self-effulgent Acarya among the leaders of ISKCON is still an abomination to them, because the souls relationship with the Acarya is one of humble inquiry and menial service, birth after birth. Thinking they are equals or better than other disciples of Srila Prabhupada, they lack the motivation to realize they need the Acarya; they believe they know everything either individually or collectively and have already got Krishna and have set themselves up nicely as leaders and gurus.

Provide some evidence. Youre offending all leaders of ISKCON by your generalization and make us part of it. Seems like you dont care.

All glories to Srila Prabhupada!

Hare Krishna. The only evidence is the result.

Despite all the mistakes and problems, ISKCON devotees all around the world keep trying to spread and practice Krishna Consciousness as much as they are able. i regularly attend and appreciate their programs. What would we do without devotees, Temples, Srila Prabhupadas unchanged books, festivals like Rathayatra, ISCOWP, Prabhupada Cinema, Sridham Mayapur, the sadhana program, harinam samkirtan, book distribution, Deity worship, prasadam, etc? And it is not easy for us due to Kalis influence and our conditioning. ISKCON is Srila Prabhupadas society and there is NOTHING like it in the whole world. Srila Prabhupada combined with Hare Krishna Maha Mantra are divinely wonderful and spiritually perfect. Srila Prabhupada is very much involved in ISKCON, He cares for each and every one of us, and He hears our prayers. i wish we as a society would be a bit more discriminating about certain policies and tattvas, and would pray more for His guidance, but certainly it is just a question of time before we feel the need. Please excuse me for making blanket statements which were discouraging about our leaders or any devotees. The important thing is we havent left and we keep trying. That is our good fortune. May His Divine Grace bless us all.

Hare Krishna. All glories to Srila Prabhupada!

Sri Govinda Das, it was you not I that put Ramai forward as a model devotee and Sannyasi, well thats your chosen viewpoint and you have to understand there are many people here that have been around as-long as you and in many cases longer and have observed first hand the actions of many of these devotees.

Ramai does have a penchant for Rock and Roll (he would have us believe its for preaching), funny how Srila Prabhupada made thousands of devotees with simple
karatalas and clay mridnga, and yet Ramai over the years has spent probably 200K-250K (atleast) of Prabhpadas money on his desire to play Rock and Roll. He does not show exemplary depth and understanding in Shastra, and you cannot take Sannyas from a person who at the time was a practicing homo pedophile. At the very least he should have renounced his Sannyasi order and looked to take it from a worthy Acharya or another Sannyasi in good standing.

If Charlie Baccus (Bhavanada) wanted to rectify himself dont you think he should start by apologising to all those people he physically and mentally abused?
No he doesnt want to do that as it would be an admission of guilt and like all perpertrators of henious crimes he wants to move on and forget the past.
And to top it off this man is now sitting on the asanas again giving talks, with the most bogus statements I have ever heard in my devotional life"

You can hear it for yourself the video recording is on youtube it is 8 mins 31 secs long, listen to it all or place the slider at 5 mins and 20 secs.
He describes why Srila Prabhpada came, Quote "He came to educate, he did not come to be a Guru, he didnt come to be an Acharya, he didnt come to manifest some pure devotional rapture"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VzaNuVhArpk

Yes he came to educate, yes he was a Guru, in my humble opinion the most important Guru of our time, yes he was an Acharya..again in my humble opinion the most important Acharya of our time, and pure devotional rapture? Yes he did if you have the eyes to see it. So the Iskcon GBC in all its brilliance has pushed away so many nice sincere devotees who simply couldnt surrender to the likes of Charles Baccus and others, but who have now taken shelter of Narayana Maharaja or Chris Butler, good luck to them I say and if it allows them to continue with their devotional life its a good thing, and the GBC invite the homo pedophile back to feed us all of his nonsense and continues to subtly slip in statements that minimise Srila Prabhupadas spiritual position.

Iskcon is a spent force, I totally agree with portnoy. Iskcon deviated soon after Srila Prabhupada died infact they (TKG) tried to sideline him while he was alive, its all documented history. He came, they were given the opportunity and they blew it. And many Iskcon temples are now in the hands of the Hindu community and most of the pujaris are paid to worship the dieties. They may once have carried the flame, but the flame went out along time ago.

Sri Govinda you must have your head in the sand, it is our duty to discriminate, if we dont fools become acharyas, fools become glorified and fools destroy everything Srila Prabhupada worked so hard to establish.

Manasi seva since you are bewildered you have failed to see that iskcon is at least 250 iskcon temples,with a least dozens of wonderful restaurants.We are a worldwide preaching society ,which is why everyone keeps trying to steal its immense assets and unique preaching style and flavour!

We are several times bigger and hugely more financially secure than when srila PRABHUPADA was present himself.In our zone we are immensely more stable and wonderfully accepted by the non-devotee population.Prime ministers regularly came to our temples and are pleased to be called upon to open our temples.We are welcomed into regular society as genuine saintly persons!This never happened when i first jioned!

Narayanna maharaja is trying to jion us.....we are not trying to jion him!He is completely unable to understand srila PRABHUPADAS demons and devotees preaching mood....and many times fails to see basic-self evident preaching truths.....He is unskilled on how to run the corporate fashioned iskcon society and fully appreciate its unique international flavour and its individual satisfying abilities and appeal.

If your temples in your area are being run by hindus ......you and the other devotees in your zone have failed manasi seva.But do not worry ....we are not failing as you have.....in your zone .Our temples are showing the value of so many qualified servants,whose gurus are themselves maturing as everyday matures into night.We have genuinely satisfied srila Prabhupadas empowered servants.Come to our preaching environment and learn!

You are expert at criticising like PORTNOY.....,What wonderful gurus embellish your preaching movement?How many temples does your society own?.....Or are you merely more dogs barking as the.... [worldwide iskcon] caravan carries on by!....back to godhead!

You are expert at using rhetoric at fallen iskcon preachers like bhavannada das after they have fallen......however at least they flew!He personally massaged srila Prabhupadas transcendental body!He received his personal blessings....was accepted in to his intimatly sweet association.Iskcon is unstoppable now!You are unable to appreciate this because you cannot even maintain and run the temples in your zone......manasi seva.You cannot speak.....our temples are not dying!Every week Auckland has a minimum of 125 guests.Most weeks 200-300 guests!On festivals 15,000 to 20,000 devotees visit!We are booming!We have a temple which our devotees have paid for.....only 200,000 dollars left!It cost at least 20,000,000dollars and is now worth 5 times that now!

Get fired up manasi seva and get out of maya......and humbly learn how to preach properly from someone empowered!!

sri_govinda_das: You dont have to make every paragraph a new text. Theres no prize nor a title for a high number of contributions anyway.

Sri Govinda Das,

Firstly you need to acknowledge Vedas post and learn not to make every paragraph a new entry or maybe thats how you think in paragraphs? It appears that you do because some time passes like an hour and your at it again adding more ridiculous statements.

Your ego seems to take great delight in the number of temples Iskcon now has, of which you constantly remind us again and again in many threads like a stuck record. You remind me of sporting fans who are so proud of their football team and how many matches they have won. I dont care if Iskcon has 25,000 temples around the world it may then be close to the size of Christianity and it will probably be just as watered down. It seems to me thats how you measure spiritual success by the number of physical assets the organization can accumulate. Your guru and the organization around him was never meant to become an extension of your ego but its so easy to see thats how you relate to it all. Even a retard understands the simple phrase "Quality not quantity" but somehow it seems to evade your consciousness.

You say "We are several times bigger and hugely more financially secure than when srila PRABHUPADA" again no measure of spritual success at all neither in Srila Prabhupadas many references nor in any spiritual terms that you fail to even present.

You say "In our zone we are immensely more stable and wonderfully accepted by the non-devotee population.Prime ministers regularly came to our temples and are pleased to be called upon to open our temples." Where are you Australia or New Zealand? No Australian Prime minister has ever visited an Iskcon temple and it only happened once in New Zealand it was David Lange in 1987 and he was a very exceptional man, and a minister The Hon. Chris Carter, Minister for Ethnic Affairs unveiled a Krishna painting in 2006. So thats one Prime Minister and one Minister in 44 years and you make it sound like its every week. You are so prone to over exaggeration. You remind me of one of those wind up toys with cymbols that makes an obnoxious noise but eventually switches off to everyones delight.

Again like a stuck record you keep referring to "demons and devotees preaching mood" in 32 years of listening to hundreds and hundreds of different devotees from, Iskcon, the late BR Sridhara Maharaj, Narayana Maharajas camp, Radha Kund Babajis and others no one has used such an embarrassing phrase. Grow up, mature and read, everyone is a potential devotee it sickens me to hear your nonsensical quotes.

You use terms like "corporate fashioned iskcon society and fully appreciate its unique international flavour and its individual satisfying abilities and appeal"
Get real and stop pretending to be some marketing executive, your ability to pin more than two words together is so flaky its laughable. You really have no idea do you? In-fact its becoming obvious you are a few cents short of a buck, please go back to your medication it may help.

You say "If your temples in your area are being run by hindus ..." its funny you always try and read between the lines and always get it wrong. Maybe you are on medication and thats the problem. I never said it was in my zone, in fact its becoming common place in Iskcon temples the world over USA, UK, Australia. So many sincere devotees have left who collected millions over the years that was squandered. Temple presidents are being replaced by committees and many have local Hindus on those committees who draw many Hindus to the temples who give so much money they are maintaining some of these temples.

You quote that silly phrase ".... [worldwide iskcon] caravan carries on by!...." yep and its shame the real Iskcon caravan fell into an abyss in 1977 and what continues on is nothing like what its founder had in mind and where the new caravan is heading is pretty dam obvious.

You say "You are expert at using rhetoric at fallen iskcon preachers like bhavannada das after they have fallen......however at least they flew!" Yep he flew so high he burnt his angel like wings, tell that story to the many children he abused in Mayapur, many who were so powerless and who were extremely poor Bengalis who depended on Iskcon like their mother and father.

Your posts here are as repetitive as they are boring, non inspiring and completely embarrassing both in grammar and in content and thats being kind. I have put in a request to the admin in Pariprashnena for a mute button which would allow a member to mute the posts of another member they no longer wanted to read. If and when its provided you will be the one I mute, until then I will mute you by not reading or responding to anything else you say here, so save yourself the time dont bother responding.

Best of luck with your ostrich mentality and your corporate fashioned iskcon society with its unique international flavour, god help us all.

> Your posts here are as repetitive as they are boring

Manasi seva, this applies to you as well. Youre nowhere close to pariprashna, just repeating what we already heard many times from portnoy and others before.

Yes well its welcome to the knuckle head association, so now we have dumb and dumber (Sri Govinda Das and his ardent admirer VEDA)

If you care to read my thread its actually a response to foolish comments made by someone else which is a total waste of time like this response is to you,
true I may have come to the same conclusions on some subjects as others but knuckle heads need to hear it again and again.

VEDA, truth is when I see your posts I mostly just skip over them because they add zero value (your last two posts here demonstrate my point)

Bring on the mute function

can you guys continue your discussion by starting another question? Maybe the question can be "Who is the most boring and off the mark with their comments on pariprashnena?" Otherwise, serioulsy Admin, its getting to the stage where you need to shut this site down.

> knuckle heads need to hear it again and again.

If thatd help they wouldnt be called like that, dont you think?

Im honored that you skip my posts. Id be alarmed if youd appreciate them. Guilt by association.

Dina: Imho, its enough to stick to the sites purpose and shut down (send away) those few who dont like it.

Beam me up Scotty!

O.o

You are expert at criticising like PORTNOY.....,What wonderful gurus embellish your preaching movement?How many temples does your society own?.....Or are you merely more dogs barking as the.... [worldwide iskcon] caravan carries on by!....back to godhead!.....Sorry you were unable to answer a single question manasi seva .Offensive behaviour fails to enable you to add a positive spin on your ritvik ....end of parampara hysterical dogma.We are resolute in our service.....where is your society....your gurus ....your temples....your positive alternative.....manasi seva?Oh the silence is deafening.

Lastly he replied to a letter from Tutsa Krsna Swami in New Zealand. Tutsa Krsna Maharaja belongs to a group of devotees who split away from ISKCON seeveral years ago. They disagreed with certain methods of book distribution and the managerial structure within ISKCON. The leader of this group have their own ideas about spreading Krsna consciousness, Tutsa Krsna Maharaja writes to Srila Prabhuapda regularly. Tutsa Krsna had previously recommended various people for initiation, but before accepting them wanted to know if Tutsa krsna Maharaja himself was following. Tutsa Krsna"s letter letter contained positive confirmation, and Prabhupada wrote back, "every student is expected to become acarya. Acarya means one who knows the scriptural injuctions and follows them practically in life and teaches them to his disciples. I have given you sannyasa with the great hope that in my absence you will preach the cult throughout the world and thus become recognized by Krsna as the most sincere servant of the Lord. So I am pleased you have not deviated from the principles I have taught, and thus, wissth power of attorney go on preaching Krsna consciousness. THat will make me very happy as it is confirmed in the Guru_astaka: yasya prasadat bhagavat-prassadah. Just by satisfying your spiritual master, who is accepted as the bpna fide representative of the Lord, you satisfy Krsna immediately without any doubt. Prabhupada also alluded to Tutsa Krsnas independent mentality, carefully encouraging him to keep him close. "Keep trained very rigidly, and then you are bona fide guru, and you can accept disciples on the same principle. But as a matter of etiquette it is the custom that during the lifetime of your spitirual master you bring the prospective disciples to him, and in his absence or disapperance you can accept disciples without any limitation. This is the lae of disciplic successsion. I want to see my disciples become bona fide spirtual master and spread Krsna consciousness very widely; that will make me and Krsna very happy." He ended each letter with "I hope this finds you well" and epithet "Your ever well-wisher, A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami.".......taken from page 38 A Transcedental Diary by Hauri Sauri Das

Dear bhakta rodney pleasa accept my kind regards.....as promised i will try and bring you the relevant quotes from my research....notice how srila Prabhupada is saying This is the law of disciplic succession.I want to see my disciples become bonafide spiritual master and spread krishna conciousness very widely......Also tusta krishnas independent mentality,as a symptom of their [ the haribols] groups obvious seperate mood .keep trained very rigidly....srila PRABHUPADA obviously knows his disciples inclinations very well.Notice also how the disciplic succession is described as a law.....sorry but my wife made a mistake and made it lae...instead of law.How can the ritviks and the death to the sampradaya babajis hope to refute such clear and precise instructions.

Thanks. Just keep posting things as you find them. WHere is Tusta Krsna Swami Now?

Yes Rodney this one will have you laughing he left Iskcon and joined with Siddhasvarupananda (Chris Butler). I love how they use the first part of the story to start telling us the law and leave off the ending. Made his own personal choice for who he respected as a shiksha guru because like so many he had zero faith in the GBC.

Apparently stepped down from being a Maharaja (means Great King) and even refused to be called Prabhu (means Master), sounds like a true devotee of the Lord very humble indeed.

I believe he has now passed away.

http://www.vina.cc/stories/VAISHNAVAS/2003/1/tustakrishnadas.html

He refused to be called Prabhu? But he called others Prabhu?

My friend says that in that group they dont like to call anyone prabhu. Because if you call someone prabhu they might start thinking they are the master and not servant. Plus that is the ISKCON lingo. They dont want to be confused with ISKCON.

[quote][cite] Rodney:[/cite]Nityananda was not a sannyasi according to Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakur. All the acharyas in the GM are adamant that those who say he was are sahajiyas except Narayana Maharaja, and well that tells a lot does it not?
[br][br]
As far as Rasikananda and Syamananda I would like to see the sastric evidence.[/quote]
Do you have a quote from BSST on Lord Nityananda not being a sannyasi?
[br][br]
Caitanya Mangala, Madhya-Lila, Song 11:[br]
79. On another day Lord Mahaprabhu invited Lord Nityananda, the best of sannyasis, to His home.[br]
95. Hearing these words, Lord Nityananda, the best of sannyasis, respectfully gazed at Lord Gauras body.
[br][br]
An Avadhuta is considered part of the sannyasi class. If BSST did say he wasnt a sannyasi, it must necessarily mean in a formal way.

"Jagad-guru Sri Nityananda Prabhu was a brahmcari disciple of Parivrajakacarya Sri Laksmipati Tirtha, who enacted the pastimes of subordination to the Sri Madhva sampradaya. We find His brahmacari name was Sri Nityananda Svarupa. ..." Sarasvati Thakur, from purport of the Madya-khanda of Caitanya-bhagavat

'93The brahmacari name of Nityananda Prabhu was Svarupa. Since Svarupa is the brahmacari name of a Tirtha sannyasis disciple, some people consider Him to be a follower of Laksmipati Tirtha rather than a follower of Madhavendra Puri.'94 Sarasvati Thakur - Purport to CB. Madhya 5.67)

Also in the purports of Sarasvati Thakur he mentions that the danda and waterpot are also used by brahmacaris. When such a brahmacari gets married he breaks his danda and discards the waterpot. That is supported in the Sattvata-samhita. It is also a fact that Ananda is not a sannyasa name.

If we are to suggest Nityananda was a sannyasi by citing quotes like the one you gave then we must also conclude that Haridas Thakur was a sannyasi because it is also mentioned in places that he was. But he could never have taken formal sannyasa anymore than he could have entered the Jagannath Temple, being born in a Muslem family. When Nityananda is mentioned anywhere as a sannyasi it not meant in a formal way.

Avadhuta is a broad term. Sannyasi is often different to nyasi to naga to vayragi to avadhuta. Avadhuta, depending on the tradition, may mean a sannyasi or not. Nityananda was a beggar, travelling vairagi and an avadhuta. He was also a dandi and he got married. Just because he was carrying a name that is used by brahmacaris, it does not make him only a brahmacari, but it can be used (as by Siddhanta sarasvati) in an argument against those who use His avadhuta behavior to justify the avadhuta behavior for themselves.(

Siddhanta sarasvati was very much building daivy varnasrama, thus his prime purpose was to interpret everything to do the establishment of the four orders. This was not a common thing at the time of Lord Caitanaya, who would rather cross the cast and asrama borders and would force his followers to do the same, by putting outcast or low order people as teachers and leaders, seeing adhikara not in social status, but in the development of inner bhava.

What I am looking for is a sastric pramana to him being Vishnutattva or an avatara, nothing except from his disciples that I can find. Anyone can help me.

Siddha is a cool guy, but he is useless in fishing...

@ Rodney: Thanks, thats what I was trying to say. That Lord Nityananda could be called a sannyasi, but he may have not taken it formally.

My freind bhakta rodney please accept my kind regards,i found some interesting background to the siddhaswarupa das-iskcon saga.From page 420...november....1975...april 1976.A Transcendental dairy,by hari sauri das.Srila Prabhupada intends to try and unite his wayward disciples,however siddha swarupananda goswami was intent on not working at all within srila Prabhupadas iskcon.He was not interested at all in following his gurus guidance and wishes,and refused to follow his godbrothers in the form of the GBC.Siddha swarupa swami was inclined to encourage his disciples to focus their allegiance on him ,rather than srila Prabhupada.He was inclined to distribute his own [siddha swarupas] books rather than srila Prabhupadas books hence this renegade group of partime iskcon devotees eventually became theHaribols in New Zealand and Australia.

will attempt to type it on this site soon to allow others to appreciate srila PRABHUPADAS unting mood and vision for his wayward disciple!

Krsna Upanisad, Chapter Two

1 From Lord Vasudeva was manifested Lord Sesa, who was also named Sankarsana, and who was the father of all living entities. He desired, '93I shall create children.'94
2 From Him was born the person named Pradyumna. From Pradyumna was born Aniruddha, who had the names Ahankara and Hiranyagarbha. From Pradyumna were born the ten Prajapatis, beginning with Marici and including Sthanu, Daksa, Kardama, Priyavrata, Uttanapada, and Vayu. In this way from Lord Sesa all living beings were born and into Sesa they enter (at the time of cosmic devastation).
3 Lord Sesa fathered all living beings. He protects them. He created grammar, astrology, and the other sciences. He is worshipped by the sages that yearn for liberation. He holds the entire universe on His head. The sages know His glories. The sages glorify Him with prayers. With His many heads He eclipses Mount Merus thousand peaks. He created the ether and false ego.
4 Lord Sesa is the Personality of Godhead. Yuga after yuga He appears in many forms. He took birth as Laksmana, the son of Sumitra and descendent of King Iksvaku. Learned in the science of archery and weapons, He killed all the demons and protected varnasrama-dharma.
5 Lord Sesa is the Personality of Godhead. At the time of the yuga-sandhya (junction of the yugas) He appeared as Lord Balarama, the son of Vasudeva and Rohini. He was splendid like an autumn cloud. Expert in fighting with a club and other weapons, and yearning to kill the hosts of demon kings, he uprooted the earths burden.
6 In the fourth yuga the Supreme Personality of Godhead takes birth in a brahmana family. Desiring to teach the message of all the Upanisads, preach the truths of the dharma-sastras, and deliver all the people, He preaches all the truths of vaisnava-dharma and He also uproots all the atheists and offenders.
7 He is the Supersoul present in everyones heart. He is the object of meditation for they who yearn after liberation. He is the giver of liberation. By meditating on Him one becomes free from all sins. By chanting His holy names one attains liberation.
8 One who meditates on Him during the day becomes free from the sins of the previous night. One who meditates on Him at night become free from the sins of the previous day. This is the secret of the Vedas. This is the secret of the Upanisads. By meditating on Him one attains the fruits of all seasons, one attains peace, one attains a pure heart, one attains the result of all pilgrimages. He who knows this becomes free from again entering a material body. Thus the Upanisad.

Note: Some editions lack 2nd chapter.

From page 420,A Transcendental dairy....by hari sauri das.As the sun arose,Srila prabhupada toured the temple grounds.He took the opportunity to ask Siddha swarupananda goswami and some of our ISKCON authorities about their dispute.He wanted to hear all the pionts of contention in order to try to settle the long simmering quarrel.
MADHUDWISA SWAMI spoke first.His south seas zone was most seriously affected when siddha swarupa and his followers left ISKCON.One temple had to close and several others were severly depleted in manpower.Siddhas group is most active in New Zealand and Australia,sometimes causing friction with anti-iskcon propaganda.
Madhudwisa swami itemized several points of contention,especially the tendency of siddha swarupas followers to focus their allegiance on him rather than Srila Prabhupada.He also complained that they prefer to distribute books written by Siddha swarupa rather than Srila Prabhupadas literature.Siddha swarupa vigorously denied the alligations.Srila Prabhupada did not think Siddha swarupa swami having a following was a serious problem,he minimized the complaints.....Now let us make some adjustments and work combinedly.Siddha swarupa did not think he could comply with this request.Srila Prabhupada,the problem is that to work combinedly,they think that means that i surrender to them and do everything they say.As far as i am concerned,i cannoT work with them!The discussion became a little acrimonious as Siddha swarupa became highly defensive.He eventually revealed his underlying mentality when he adamantly proclaimed he would never accept control by anyone,especially the GBC.Srila Prabhupada offered to make him a member of the GBC,but he refused to accept this alternative.This seemed to be the crux of the issue.He doesnot want to work on any level with his godbrothers............. Ultimately in Prabhupadas summation he said there seemed to be a disagreement not in philosophy but in the matter of process.You are thinking this way,he is thinking that way.That is the difference,otherwise he is interested in pressing on this krishna concious movement.....After giving full endorsement for their Siddha swarupas groups kirtana and prasadam distribution programs.....after suggesting that siddha swarupa come traveling for awhile with srila Prabhupada,which siddha swarupa declined.....preferring to preach asi know how.After madhudwisa swami and siddha swarupa had departed.....,i questioned Srila Prabhupada again on the criticism that Siddha swarupas men are more attached to him than srila Prabhupada....
Prabhupada shrugged it off,saying it was all right,it is not harmful.He said that each of us has to become guru and accept many disciples .But as a matter of etiquette,one should wait until his own spiritual master has departed before doing so.After lunch, i questioned him further.He told me that having a following is not such a serious offence.But if someone thinks he is qualified,and accepts disciples in the prescence of his own spiritual master,that in its self would be his disqualification.Replying to my question wether one has to be a pure devotee to make disciples?he said that one has to be strictly following the principles.That is the requirement.Then he can be considered to be on the pure platform.

Interesting bhakta rodney ...how srila Prabhupadfa delinates siddha swarupas disqualifications.....and what is the minimin qualification to make disciples,one has to be following the principles strictly.That is the requirement.Then he can be considered to be on the pure platform.Also how he refused to go travelling with his divine grace....how crazy is this behaviour?Hopefully this helps you place their preaching team in proper devotional perspective....hare krishna!

Interesting!