Pariprashnena — Q&A Archive

did not watch it - tell me is he talking about all the leaders or only the leaders that blast him?

N.M. "I dont require money, I want to help you"

The history of this Sampradaya is not a history of organisations it is a history of exemplary individuals, that is how the spirit or flame passes, to enlightended exemplary individuals. It is our responsibility as humans to seek out these individuals and to inquire from them submissively. Thats what the Bhagavad Gita implores us to do. Enlightened exemplary individuals cannot be rubber stamped by a committee it simply doesnt work like that, common sense tells you that a management committee cannot decide who is on the level of Paramahamsa. The only thing a management committee can decide on is the physical needs of the organisation.

Unfortunately narayanna maharaja is very elderly and is showing sadly his inability to actually appreciate what srila Prabhupada accomplished.By calling Srila Prabhupada...... swami maharaja he is intentionally belittling our founder archaryas unique position. .He is calling ISKCON a mundane organisation,though his team is expert at stealing our devotees....they are very envious of our temples and creation of devotees. We have the srimad bhagavatam and the bhaktivedanta purports which are the immense difference between the gaudiya math and iskcon generally.Sadly he is intent on stealing srila Prabhupadas legacy for his own purposes.

Just a technical: Srila Prabhupada is called Swami Maharaja all over Gaudiya Maths.

NM was discussed here many times. Why a new thread?

Iskcon is empowered by srila Bhaktisiddanta saraswati maharaja because we established a GBC ....which narayanna maharaja and the previous gaudiya archaryas failed to do.Especially Ananta vasudeva...who eventually became the foremost archarya in their line was attracted by the archarya position ,rather than forfilling their gurus instructions to form a governing board commission!
As a consequence of their personal desire and benefit being the dominant principle within their hearts their united society dissolved as was seen in their history whereby everything broke up!Hence without a united preaching movement they have failed their guru immensely,by thinking they know better individually than their own param guru.Srila bhaktisiddanta saraswati Prabhupada. !
Much should be learnt from there selfish desires to be the archarya........ at the expense of following the order of their own spiritual master and his divine instructions to set up a GBC.!

Why not a new thread? N.M.s comments raises interesting questions and like the admins say "Please use this forum as a humble question and answer facility (pariprashnena). No censorship on (related) themes or comments."

rasa108 is correct "Interesting video showing what NM thinks" and is worthy of discussion, of course if you dont like the thread then dont comment on it...quite simple.

Iskcon has nothing to do with Bhaktisiddanta Saraswati and its empowerment came and left with the advent and demise of Srila Prabhupada. An organisation can never really truly represent living bhakti only a living paramahamsa can do this. That is why even after all the efforts of Bhaktisiddanta Sarasvati Maharaja he advised Srila Prabhupada to leave the Gaudia Math organisation (that he put so much effort into) and start a fresh, why? because the organisation is never important only the message is important and that it is delivered by a pure representative of Krishna. Most organisations in the end become self serving and lose the meaning of their original directive.

A committee is for managing the physical requirements of an organization it is not for deciding who will be a guru or acharya, how can a bunch of non guru/acharyas sit around and decide who will be guru/acharya the whole idea is absurd.

Our Sampradaya is a history of empowered living Acharyas, look on the altar and you will see pictures of the Acharyas from Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu, The Six Goswamis, Gaur Kishor das Babaji (Yes we do have babajis in our disciplic succession), Srila Bhaktivinoda Takur, Srila Bhaktisiddanta Sarasvati and Srila Bhaktivedanta Swami. You will not see any organisations such as Gaudia Math Inc. or Iskcon Inc. why? because we are Acharya/Paramahamsa based, we are not (or shouldnt be) institutional based like the Vatican.

It would be a grave mistake for anyone to say that N.M. is calling Srila Prabhpadas Iskcon a mundane organisation, The Iskcon that he knew and many of us knew was the Iskcon that included Srila Prabhupadas vision, unfortunately that vision was sidelined in 1977 when Srila Prabhupada passed away. So the Iskcon that he is referring to is a vastly different one and indeed is mostly focused on making money.

If I was to believe that devotees could be stolen I would think of them as mindless sheep, most devotees I know are well thought out and seek to no longer be used up by the system or maya and have made a very decisive conscious decision to turn their material lives upside down and to reject a materialistic way of life in favour of spiritual life that dedicates their thoughts, words and actions to their Guru Maharaja and to Krishna. So some devotees have made a conscious individual decision to continue their path of Bhakti with N.M. who they have faith in, that is there right to do so and the truth is the ex-Iskcon devotees that are with him approached him, he did not approach them.

If Iskcon is so empowered by a GBC then why did they go through their darkest hours of child abuse, fall down of most the so called chosen eleven and many of the Sannyasis that the GBC selected and promoted..all this happened under the full view of the GBC...and you call that empowerment?

As Srila Prabhupada once said "I can criticise my god brothers but you cannot" Although N.M does not share the same guru as Srila Prabhupada, they are of a similar era and it would be a grave spiritual mistake indeed to start throwing mud in that direction.

At the very least it would be far more mature to see N.M. in a different mood to the society that is now called Iskcon. N.Ms mood is not focused on making money he is focused on bhakti.

Finally a voice of reason here at Pariprashnena. Manasi seva Prabhu --- your comments are like a fresh aromatic breeze in an atmosphere stale with smoke and hot air.

A note for sri-govinda-das .... why do you so often write "in my humble opinion" when you make your inane comments? First of all -- why are you giving us your opinions when you should be giving us authorized statements from Guru, Sastra and Sadhu. Secondly -- there is absolutely nothing humble about you nor your opinions so why do you cheapen that word constantly? One last thing -- if I were to make a large contribution to your local ISKCON center on the contingency that you not speak or write for one year -- would you go for it?

> That is why even after all the efforts of Bhaktisiddanta Sarasvati Maharaja he advised Srila Prabhupada to leave the Gaudia Math organisation (that he put so much effort into) and start a fresh, why?

Where and when did he advise that? I dont remember reading about it.

> focused on making money.

It depends how the money is used - either for Krsna or for maya.

Well some say he was never active in the Gaudia Math but that is not correct, as a Grhasta he was very active in collecting funds, helping with preaching events etc. This can be read from the conversation Srila Prabupada had with BR. Sridhara Swami in 1973. Here is one excerpt that shows how active he was, he helped establish the Bombay Gaudia Math.

"In my householder life I had opened an office in Bombay for our business. The Bombay Gaudiya Math was established by Sridhara Maharaj and myself. We made two parties for begging, collecting alms, Sridhara Maharaja, myself, and Bhakti Saranga Goswami Maharaja. So, I took them to my chemist friends and we collected about five hundred rupees. Sridhara Maharaja would speak, I would introduce, and Goswami Maharaja would canvass." [Lilamrta, Vol. 1, p. 81]

Here is the full online transcript: http://www.gosai.com/chaitanya/saranagati/html/vishnu_mjs/affection_unabridged/oag_a_1.html

There are transcripts of Srila Prabhpada discussing the factional infighting that was taking place in the Gaudia Math while Bhaktisiddanta Maharaja was still on the planet, under advice from his Guru he did not stay in the Gaudia Math.

> It depends how the money is used - either for Krsna or for maya.

Even if the money is used for Krishna? if too much emphasis is placed on collecting money it interferes with devotional life. How many devotees I saw being totally burnt out by money collection, some travelled on the road for months at a time, and quite often did not attend temple programs for weeks. Some of them blooped on the road. It was so off the wall, the general idea was pushed that if you couldnt make money for Iskcon you were of little use to Iskcon. Devotees were being ranked on their surrender/sincerity/advancement by how much Laxmi they collected, talk about a deviation.

N.M. is a breath of fresh air finally a guru who says "I dont require money, I want to help you"

There is even a video of Srila Prabhupada saying if we make extra funds print and distribute books that should be the first priority.

Of course some funds are required for book printing, temples, programs etc. no argument, but when it becomes the main activity and collectors are considered advanced by how slick in sales they can be then its wrong.

sri govinda is out of touch with his own TKG on this one. funny

Sri govinda das is out of touch with reality. In the interest of sanity and defending the good name of my spritiual master and the Holy Name of God -- just about every single thing he writes is completely off the wall. He has zero .. and I mean ZERO .. understanding of Srila Prabhupadas mood, mission, priorities, teachings, instructions. He takes the name of Srila Prabhupada in vain and thats a dangerous thing for an upstart neophyte person like him. He should be doing 90% listening and learning and 10% teaching and preaching and yet he has it in reverse. To attempt to enlighten him or debate with him is like jumping into a pile of quicksand. He springs right back with a hundred consecutive posts repeating the same nonsense about how he is a front line Sankirtan devotee -- part of some elite in crowd because his ISKCON superiors told him so. When hes done listing all his personal credentials he then goes on and on about how wonderful ISKCON has been doing since the departure of Srila Prabhupada and the ousting of just about all his beloved sons and daughters. The guy is almost comical in his immature cheerleading mentality but yet he is dangerous because he has found herein a public forum which he has apparently embraced with every ounce of his ego (in the name of preaching, of course).

There are a few other chronic posters here who also would do everyone a favor if theyd give it a rest --- but none of them compare to this one guy from New Zealand. I mean were talking coocoo for coco puffs -- full goose bozo bananas jelly rolls nutso.

Maybe he is posting from the inside and this is his therapy session, the problem is I am sure he we will drive us full goose bozo bananas jelly rolls nutso long before he makes any progress in the sanity department. At least we know what to get him for his birthday that stylish new wall paper with the extra thick padding! LMHO

Sorry, I cant find any specific instruction from BSST about SPs leaving GM on that page.

Lastly he replied to a letter from Tutsa Krsna Swami in New Zealand. Tutsa Krsna Maharaja belongs to a group of devotees who split away from ISKCON seeveral years ago. They disagreed with certain methods of book distribution and the managerial structure within ISKCON. The leader of this group have their own ideas about spreading Krsna consciousness, Tutsa Krsna Maharaja writes to Srila Prabhuapda regularly. Tutsa Krsna had previously recommended various people for initiation, but before accepting them wanted to know if Tutsa krsna Maharaja himself was following. Tutsa Krsna"s letter letter contained positive confirmation, and Prabhupada wrote back, "every student is expected to become acarya. Acarya means one who knows the scriptural injuctions and follows them practically in life and teaches them to his disciples. I have given you sannyasa with the great hope that in my absence you will preach the cult throughout the world and thus become recognized by Krsna as the most sincere servant of the Lord. So I am pleased you have not deviated from the principles I have taught, and thus, with power of attorney go on preaching Krsna consciousness. THat will make me very happy as it is confirmed in the Guru_astaka: yasya prasadat bhagavat-prassadah. Just by satisfying your spiritual master, who is accepted as the bpna fide representative of the Lord, you satisfy Krsna immediately without any doubt. Prabhupada also alluded to Tutsa Krsnas independent mentality, carefully encouraging him to keep him close. "Keep trained very rigidly, and then you are bona fide guru, and you can accept disciples on the same principle. But as a matter of etiquette it is the custom that during the lifetime of your spitirual master you bring the prospective disciples to him, and in his absence or disapperance you can accept disciples without any limitation. This is the law of disciplic successsion. I want to see my disciples become bona fide spirtual master and spread Krsna consciousness very widely; that will make me and Krsna very happy." He ended each letter with "I hope this finds you well" and epithet "Your ever well-wisher, A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami.".......taken from page 38 A Transcedental Diary by Hauri Sauri Das

Srila Prabhupadas commenting concerning the law of disciplic succession really does not fit well with your concocted ideas manasi seva and portnoy!Or that he is giving him power of attorney to continue the law of disciplic succession after his personal absence!

Would you portnoy and manasi seva like me to show you the personal resolutions made by srila Prabhupada empowering the GBC!.Would that possibly help to increase your obvious lacking in iskcon history and genuine spiritual realisation!

[quote][cite] manasi_seva:[/cite] It was so off the wall, the general idea was pushed that if you couldnt make money for Iskcon you were of little use to Iskcon. Devotees were being ranked on their surrender/sincerity/advancement by how much Laxmi they collected, talk about a deviation.[/quote]
Things have changed dramatically since that time, there maybe some collecting still going on to support important preaching programs (I know that is the case with IMs very powerful preaching in Poland etc.)....generally ISKCON temples have de-focused away from straight out money collecting and re-focused on book distribution.

"Would you portnoy and manasi seva like me to show you the personal resolutions made by srila Prabhupada empowering the GBC!.Would that possibly help to increase your obvious lacking in iskcon history and genuine spiritual realization!" says the idiot.

Hey Schmucko -- can I call you Schmucko? There were several times when the GBC screwed up -- disobeyed, misunderstood, misrepresented and overstepped their boundaries and Srila Prabhupada suspended, revoked, chastised and disbanded them until further notice (or until he was able to fix the situation). When the dust settled Srila Prabhupada was more concerned with his non-GBC disciples for not stepping up to the plate and challenging their GBC godbrothers but instead following like blind sheep. There must be a lot of blind sheep in New Zealand. Best you dont learn from them. baaaaaa baaaaaaa
Id rather be a black sheep than a blind sheep.

sgd -- every time you invoke the name of Srila Prabhupada or pretend that you know anything about him or misrepresent him ---- you make me very angry. Please dont do that any more. Stick with what you (dont) know. Glorify your "preaching team" and your "leaders" and do all the cheer leading and revel in your party spirit and your rah rah ziscoombah consciousness but dont you dare drag the sanctified name of my spiritual master into your ignorant and childish posts here. Stupid and quiet is an okay combination but stupid and vocal like you --- were talking big time irksome. Please -- for the umpteenth time --- shut up. Just stop. For your own sake and the sake of anybody who chances upon this website -- just go away for a few months. Take a sabbatical. Unplug your computer. Put duct tape over your mouth and tape your fingers together with it. I implore you. Ill even pay you. Im very wealthy. Just tell me where to send the international money order. You can keep the money or give it away. Dont matter to me as long as you abide by the agreement.

Yes well rasa108 it had to change they were burning devotees out fast and furiously and others they were kicking out, I have seen a shift away from money making only because people are no longer prepared to dress up in karmi clothes and tell blatant lies. I have seen no shift back to book distribution. What I have seen is a focus on buildings and assets. To be honest I lost faith in Iskcon a looooooooong time ago and its no longer a place I would look for spiritual guidance,

[quote][cite] manasi_seva:[/cite] I have seen no shift back to book distribution.[/quote]

I think the numbers speak for themselves....total of 3,884,922 book distributed by ISKCON centres in 2009.

[quote][cite] rasa108: [/cite][quote][cite] manasi_seva:[/cite] I have seen no shift back to book distribution.[/cite] [/quote]

I think the numbers speak for themselves....total of 3,884,922 book distributed by ISKCON centres in 2009.[/cite][/quote]

Exactly! The numbers do speak for themselves. Most of todays devotees think 4 million is a big number, forgetting that it is well less than HALF of the number that was being distributed 30 years ago!

Not true tattva. Moreover the number 3,884,922 includes what was distributed by all gaudiya groups who sell Prabhupadas books, including NMs camp.

Whos on first?

borokrsnadasa: Not at all. This number of literature refers only to 259 ISKCON temples, only Jan-Nov 2009. (Some temples dont report their numbers). http://www.wsnl.net/hist/WSN2009c.htm#pageWT

Lastly he replied to a letter from Tutsa Krsna Swami in New Zealand. Tutsa Krsna Maharaja belongs to a group of devotees who split away from ISKCON seeveral years ago. They disagreed with certain methods of book distribution and the managerial structure within ISKCON. The leader of this group have their own ideas about spreading Krsna consciousness, Tutsa Krsna Maharaja writes to Srila Prabhuapda regularly. Tutsa Krsna had previously recommended various people for initiation, but before accepting them wanted to know if Tutsa krsna Maharaja himself was following. Tutsa Krsna"s letter letter contained positive confirmation, and Prabhupada wrote back, "every student is expected to become acarya. Acarya means one who knows the scriptural injuctions and follows them practically in life and teaches them to his disciples. I have given you sannyasa with the great hope that in my absence you will preach the cult throughout the world and thus become recognized by Krsna as the most sincere servant of the Lord. So I am pleased you have not deviated from the principles I have taught, and thus, with power of attorney go on preaching Krsna consciousness. THat will make me very happy as it is confirmed in the Guru_astaka: yasya prasadat bhagavat-prassadah. Just by satisfying your spiritual master, who is accepted as the bpna fide representative of the Lord, you satisfy Krsna immediately without any doubt. Prabhupada also alluded to Tutsa Krsnas independent mentality, carefully encouraging him to keep him close. "Keep trained very rigidly, and then you are bona fide guru, and you can accept disciples on the same principle. But as a matter of etiquette it is the custom that during the lifetime of your spitirual master you bring the prospective disciples to him, and in his absence or disapperance you can accept disciples without any limitation. This is the law of disciplic successsion. I want to see my disciples become bona fide spirtual master and spread Krsna consciousness very widely; that will make me and Krsna happy......

From page 420...november....1975...april 1976.A Transcendental dairy,by hari sauri das.Srila Prabhupada intends to try and unite his wayward disciples,however siddha swarupananda goswami was intent on not working at all within srila prabhupadas iskcon...similarly because manasi seva and Portnoy are inimical to srila Prabhupadas Iskcon society,are they sincere Bhaktivedanta followers or just opportunists attempting to offer their envious criticism because they are unable to serve humbly within his preaching legacy?Note also srila prabhupadas qualified guru....rigidly following the principles!

Your dots dont connect, honey pie. Your logic is if a equals b and b equals c then a must equal d. Obviously you didnt go far in mathematics. You just keep on talking and writing at your whim whether you make sense or not. Its unbelievable. People require a license to drive, to cut hair, to fish, to be a plumber or electrician and yet any idiot can move his lips and talk or peck on a keyboard. Oh -- but you, sgd -- youre not just any idiot. Youre a frontline preacher, a spokesman for the Gaudiya Vaisnava Sampradaya. An idiot like you spouting his opinion on the internet. Its comical. Youre a cartoon character. The Kiwi Flash!!!

Jay Srila Gurudeva!!!

Greetings Forum Participants,
Nityananda-Gauranga! Radhe-Krishna! All glories to Shri Guru and Gauranga!

I have just read a number of statements by His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Shrila Prabhupada wherein he praised his God brothers for their preaching work. He dismissed their apparent differences as "spiritual disagreement", that is something not to be taken seriously by his disciples, such that they develop a negative and condescending attitude toward them and run the risk becoming offenders. If "they" are all such rascals, why did Shrila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati think they were worthy of being initiated and engaged so successfully in preaching all of India? Who are we to pass a negative judgment on the judgment of our Grandfather and Father?

There is also the concept of Parivara, which is the group of disciples carefully following their Spiritual Masters instructions. The instructions of Shrila Prabhupad [Bhaktivedanta Swami] are very explicit that preaching by his disciples is to be undertaken through cooperation with a GBC. His own spiritual master, Shrila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati, instructed this to his disciples also. Due to "spiritual differences" the GBC was not established among his disciples after his departure. Shrila Prabhupadas instructions are also very clear that his disciples are to live in Urban Monasteries, and Rural Villages. The principle is that all of his disciples abandon fruitive work as wage slaves among non-devotees so they can live among Vaishnavas for the performance of pure devotional service.

We see in the Gaudiya Vaishnava Sampradaya, in the line from Shrila Bhaktisiddhanta, that GBC and Daivi Varnashram development are severely limited. ISKCON is the only place a GBC is present, and, as far as Daivi Varnashram Village development is concerned, it is practically absent everywhere. The Village program has been abandoned in favor of building Urban Temples supported by a congregation of fruitive workers as wage slaves in the surrounding mundane society.

Some devotees may spent hundreds of lifetimes observing and criticizing the activities and opinions of the devotees in other Parivara, but, to what avail, when their own house is nearly in ruins or incompletely built? We need to understand that the disciples of a particular Guru evolve a firm faith in that Guru and do not like to see him, or their Parivara under attack by others. When one Parivara is attacked, the natural response is to become defensive and retaliate. In this way, a kind of civil war breaks out between Parivara and, in many cases, the common goals of each are neglected. What is needed is a common enemy to bring all Parivara to the front in cooperation. That common enemy is the erosion of the Sampradaya due to neglect of certain very important instructions from the predecessor Acharyas.

The common goal of all Gurus and disciples in all Parivara in the line of Shrila Bhaktisiddhanta are [1] Cooperative preaching via GBC and [2] Daivi Varnashram Village development. These are not the personal inventions of Shrila Prabhupad but the over arching vision and instructions of Shrila Bhaktivinode Thakur and Shrila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati, to whom we all owe allegiance and obedience. How is anyone, claiming to be their disciple, qualified to reject these as unworthy or impractical? It is unfortunate that these are not being undertaken everywhere at this time, but that is not sufficient reason to neglect them.

Until these two very important items are taken care of, the various inter-Guru and Parivara issues of who is following, who is fallen, who is authorized, and who is qualified to give instruction to whom, etc., are moot points, just like the kettle calling the pot black. Let each Parivara gets its house in order before pointing out dirt or faults in some other house.

As soon as these instructions of the Preceptor Acharyas are followed, inter-Parivara contention will be greatly reduced, and there can begin to evolve a true sense of non-sectarian fellowship and good will among Parivara.

With respect and appreciation
Prabhupad Das Karapurnam

Srila Prabhupada recalled that when he visited his guru maharaja at Radha kund in 1935,Srila bhaktisiddanta told him of a blazing fire that would occur in the gaudiya matha and how he wanted to rip up the marble in the bhag bazaar temple and use it to print and sell books.Srila Prabhupada said that this was when he understood how his guru maharaja could be pleased.He explained that the fight for control of the mathas that occurred immediately after Srila Bhaktisiddantad disappearance was the first aparadha.It was guror avajna,disobeying the orders of the spiritual master.Since then many more offenses have been committed.
He remarked his godbrothers are now useless,because instead of combining together to preach vigorously and defeat Tirtha maharajas cunning,they were all simply scheming how to become next Archarya.Thus they could not unite successfully.They all had the same disease that infected Tirtha maharaja.Srila Bhaktisiddanta never said that one man would be the next archarya.Otherwise,why did he not directly nominate one?Srila Prabhupada said that some of his godbrothers claimed that Bhaktisiddhanta indirectly indicated Tirtha maharaja should be the next guru.But Prabhupada said this was just like impersonalists,who cull meanings fr0om straight forward instructions .What Bhaktisiddanta Saraswati did order was that a twelve -man GBC[GOVERNING BODY COMMISSION ].... be formed in his absence.But they ignored him.
Prabhupadas comments were candid and revealing.It is apparent that among his godbrothers,our srila Prabhupada stands out as the one who truly desired to please his guru maharaja by vigorously spreading Lord chaitanyas movement all over the world.As srila Prabhupada himself often said ....phalena pariciyate,the value of something is judged by the fruit it produces.....february 12th ,1976...page 343 A Transcendental dairy.....sri dhama mayapura.

Why should ISKCON devotees take such narayanna maharaja comments seriously since his line has failed to please srila Bhaktisiddanta saraswati maharaja by forming a GBC?SRILA PRABHUPADA comments they became useless and offensive .....ect.

What exactly is a transcendental dairy? A dairy is where milk products are sold.

Sorry prabhus portnoy is indeed correct it should have been transcendental diary,however it is also valide to note srila prabhupadas veiw that we are meant to follow the Governing body commission or gbc.,otherwise we will also become useless!Seems like the same desire to be the next Archarya is also present now having just watched the video.

I am not in any way a follower of Narayana Maharaja. I feel quite satisfied and safe taking shelter of Srila Prabhupadas vani presence in his books, tapes, transcripts of his conversations, classes and morning walks, letters, etc. etc. That being said, however, I dont dare pass judgment on a personality such as Narayana Maharaja. I do not know his heart nor the heart of my godbrothers and sisters who have taken shelter of him and have found in him a siksa guru who can give them instructions and guidance.

In the late 70s and early 80s there was a mass exodus from ISKCON of Prabhupadas disciples because of the terrible deviations that were going on in Prabhupadas name. ISKCON was hijacked, usurped, polluted and destroyed by eleven of my godbrothers who misconstrued the instructions given to them and moreover, forced out anyone and everyone who did not go along with their nonsense. Those were very very dark days and since ISKCON was no longer a viable alternative people went elsewhere looking for shelter. They went to Sridhara Maharaja. They went to Narayana Maharaja. In the beginning even Tamal Krishna, Giriraja and others were intimately associating with one or both of them.

I do know that we are dealing with complex issues. I know many of my godbrothers and sisters who continue to take shelter of Narayana Maharaja as siksa guru or who are affiliated with Sri Caitanya Saraswat Math under the auspices of Srila Govinda Maharaja and they are very intelligent and sincere individuals. Even the ritviks who I adamantly disagree with --- there are very scholarly and serious godbrothers in that camp as well. We may have our opinions and we make our personal choices but we should be careful what we write --- especially on a public forum. In the Kali Yuga we are so fallen that we are for the most part not responsible for what we think -- but writing is another thing altogether.

Its best to offer respects from a safe distance if that is how you feel but be careful about dismissing in writing someone like Narayana Maharaja. Thats dangerous territory.

The family tree (disciplic succession) descending from Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu is a complex one and is full of so many wonderful devotees. There has never been a time when access to the inner most transcendental pastimes of Srimati Radharani and Sri Krishna have been more accessible on a world wide basis.

Srila Bhaktivinode Thakur had two sons that were great Vaisnavas including Bimal Prasad (later Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakur), and Lalita Prasad Thakur. The two brothers had different views on how their fathers spiritual heritage was to carry on, Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura was more inclined for preaching and the establishment of Varnashrama-dharma, Lalita Prasad more inclined for the esoteric mode of raganuga-worship.

Both of these great Vaisnavas had many disciples and their disciplic lines continue to this day, all very valid and bonfide although quite different in their moods and application of Bhakti yoga.

Along with Srila Prabupada, Sri Chaitanya Saraswat Math (headed by Srila B.S. Govinda Maharaj disciple of Srila B.R. Sridhar Maharaj) has a network of temples across the world, the exact number is not important, but what is important is that Sri Chaitanyas mission continues to spread across the globe and of course Narayan Maharaja also has followers and temples around the globe. I also know that disciples of Lalita Prasad Thakur are active and even authoring books. All making up the wonderful family tree of Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu.

The wonderful thing is now we are no longer stuck with a single choice of one institution the various branches in Mahaprabhus family tree are also spreading worldwide, such is the mercy of Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu he is catering for all his devotees.

If we have any respect or understanding of Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu we should know that what he is offering cannot be bottled up and sold by a single organisation, love of god head is dynamic it is not static, it is a practice not a theory while at the same time it is profoundly deep and philosophical. This is an unstoppable force and the caravan of Mahaprabhu continues on at every moment spreading Krishna consciousness not Institutional consciousness.

Jai Sree Radhey!

[quote][cite] manasi_seva:[/cite]I also know that disciples of Lalita Prasad Thakur are active and even authoring books. [/quote]

Prabhu, I would love to hear more about it and buy those books if possible.

Although Srila Bhaktisiddanta Sarasvati Thakur was more inclined for preaching and the establishment of Varnashrama-dharma, it would be a big mistake to think he had no knowledge of the Raganuga side of worship because after all he had the same Guru as Lalita Prasad Thakur and the mistake I also find very prevalent today is that most devotees think that Srila Prabhupada never taught Raganuga Bhakti...that simply isnt true...and these mistakes come about by people not reading his books.

Vaidhi-bhakti is devotion arising out of a sense of obligation to the rules and regulations (vidhi) of the Vedic scriptures. The fullest expression of vaidhi-bhakti is found in Vaikuntha, the spiritual domain where awe and reverence pervade ones relationship with divinity.

Raganuga-sadhana, on the other hand, directs us to the devotees of Vrndavana, the spiritual realm where ones devotional inclinations are non-calculative, spontaneous, and overflowing with affection.

Srila Prabhupada taught the path of Raga Marga (spontaneous love) and why would he do otherwise? he is following in the footsteps of Rupa Goswami. The path of Raga Marga assures one of success, why? because it contains both Vaidhi-Bhakti and Raganuga Bhakti. Raganuga Sadhana Bhakti is explained in the Bhakti Rasamrta Sindhu, which Srila Prabhupada gave us in a summary study, the Nectar of Devotion.

So Srila Prabhupada gave us the complete picture. Firstly clean yourself up by following the Vidhi (rules and regulations) lets face it from the west we are so fallen we must all submit to this and as one advances through study and association of a first class devotee then later the Raganuga Bhakti must also be applied while still following the rules and regulations.

Regulation forms the basis of vaidhi-bhakti and it is not contrary to raga (spontaneity). So these two go hand in hand and as juniors we must start with the vidhi not jump into raganuga otherwise we will make great offense (fools rush in where angels fear to tread), but at some stage we must begin the raganuga aspect otherwise we will stay in awe and reverence.

Some devotees are in confusion over this and they think Srila Prabhupada never taught this, but it is in his books. His Nectar of Devotion is a wonderful summary and the real gold is in his Chaitanya Charitamrtas (this shows the execution). So my advice is to start there, the next step is you need to perform submissive enquiry and perform service to a first class devotee who is connected to the realm. Very few of those around and why do think Srila Prabhupada asked some of his god brothers to help? This is why I do not subscribe to the ritvik concept because you need a living acharya to take you through the final stages.

As far as Lalita Prasads disciples books are concerned they are very hard to get outside of Navadvip, practically impossible you would need to go there.

Jai Sree Radhey!

If I wanted some personal direct instruction on my professional baseball and only one of the greats was still living, I guess the living one would be the one I could talk about my specific and personal baseball issues. In the baseball world due to ego that would be very rare! A pro giving time to a novice, would have to be an exceptional person. Yet amongst the Gaudia Vaisnavas we have the opposite, I just hope I have the intelligence to take up the offer.

Hey - I dont want to get embroiled in any sort of controversy here but Ill say one thing -- if you are a diksa or siksa disciple of Srila Prabhupada -- or a follower of his teachings and consider him in any way your mentor and guru --- then know it for a fact that Srila Prabhupada told us matter-of-factly to stay away from Lailit Prasad. What you do with this information or how you perceive it --- thats individual. Im not even going to get into the history of Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakur and Lalit Prasad ... the Gaudiya Math ... ISKCON ... Im just letting you know that was Srila Prabhupadas stand on the issue and his instructions to us. He had his reasons and maybe it was told to us at a particular time for particular reasons that may not be as applicable to today -- and, as I say, its open to not just ones interpretation and individual subjective approach to Krishna consciousness -- but also whether or not you strictly adhere to Prabhupadas instructions and teachings exclusively.

For myself -- I am an initiated disciple of Srila Prabhupada and so what he instructed or advised or even suggested ---- is to be taken as my life and soul. That doesnt mean I hammer others over the head with what it. That would be childish and naive. Neither is it a question of denouncing this or that personality. Prabhupada said that the guru knows the pulse of his students and what is good for them and what isnt. He thought it best that we stick to reading his books and not go elsewhere and in some cases (mostly letters and conversations but even in some purports and writings) Prabhupada even named some of those who he specifically did not want his disciples to intimately associate with.

As in most cases ....... if it dont apply -- let it fly. If the shoe fits -- by a few pair while theyre on sale.

I agree with you Portnoy, my real reason or mistake for mentioning Lalita Prasad Thakur was to emphasise Sri Chaitanyas family tree and the differences across the tree, but they are still a part of Sri Chaitanyas tree and some of those branches in the tree emphasise different moods. Srila Prabhupada emphasised world wide preaching and Vidhi as per his Guru Maharajas request.

I also wanted to emphasise that Srila Prabhupada did make a considerable contribution to Raganuga Bhakti and this is contained in his summary study of the Bhakti Rasamrta Sindhu and his Chaitanya Charitamrtas and that his books should be read and considered first before looking at other books on this subject. Although he also warned not to study those books at first, one must prove they are deserving of such study by following all the vidhis and reading the other necessary devotional literature.

However if we are to be seekers after the truth we must know the history and the differences and we cannot always sit at grade one, we must eventually progress through the grades. Please dont read from this that I am saying Srila Prabhpada only gave grade one, or that you are at grade one. As I said above he gave the complete picture the whole course. All that is left to do for people like myself is to surrender and complete the course.

Herein lies the problem for myself, when the sun sets, darkness follows and after the disappearance of Srila Prabhupada maya again overcame many of his disciples. In the presence of the spiritual master, we find our way in Krsna consciousness more easily due to his illuminating presence. But after his departure from this world we are put to the test. For me to complete the course it is necessary to take siksha from a living connected acharya, but that is a personal thing.

You think NM is the living connected acharya?
Ysvt.

N.M. is definitely in the proper disciplic succession and last time I checked he was still living...few could argue he is not an acharya but many do.

I dont say he is the only living acharya, but I do consider him to be a living connected acharya and he is a Bhaktivedanta (title awarded to proven scholars)

Srila Prabhupada took Sannyas from N.Ms diksha Guru (Srila Bhakti Prajnana Kesava Gosvami)

Do you think that Mickey Mantle was a better outfielder than Willie Mays and a better hitter than Hank Aaron? All three were superstars and they all played for the National Baseball Association which is now called MLB or Major League Baseball so as not to confuse them with the NBA (National Basketball Association). Its hard to compare three great players like that because each had their own style and yet they all came up from high school to college baseball teams to the minor leagues and finally the majors. I think its a matter of great, greater and greatest and even that diminishes their greatness by dint of comparison. I would have to conclude that all three represented professional baseball with exceptional talent, dignity and respect and as a novice ballplayer I learned something from watching old tapes of all three. .

Just make sure they arent on steroids.

sorry my emotionally hopeful manasi-seva...luckily we are not trying out for anything so mundane as a baseball team,however i would suggest than Narayanna maharaja and his small team are essentially disqualified from being part of the iskcon-supernova!Since maharaja on numerious occassions was unable to understand basic ISKCON preaching terms.....and even straight forward bhaktivedanta purports because he has an inferior preaching flavour compared to srila Prabhupadas demons and devotees.,,,,, would further suggest that this is due to their inability to understand such passages as the following!
But Srila Prabhupada quoted an old saying,If somebody offers you very nicely washed cloth,you should use it!And some property,you must use it.He said that people are rotting outside of Krishna conciousness and we should help them to develop their spiritual lives.This is combination of rich man poor man,for krishna.The same,anda pangu-nyaya.Both of them are useless seperately,and when they combine together in krishna -conciousness,they are all useful....So our propaganda is,They are seperately planning useless.Let them combine together in krishna- conciousness.All this planning shall be successful.
Jayapataka smiled appreciately.We were all useless in the west,but you came and then engaged us!
Srila Prabhupada took his praise humbly.It is krishnas desire.Nobody is useless.I was also useless.I could not do in India alone .......anything.He chuckled.Two uselesses makes useful;intelligence alone cannot work,money is required.A man may have very good brain power,organisation,but if he has no money-useless.So four things required;land,labour,capital and organisation.....from page 185,hyderabad....a transcendental diary august 1976...
So this is the quintessential difference between Srila Prabhupadas iskcon followers and narayanna maharaja he does not follow our gurus yukta-vairagya understandings....neither they have the capital or the organisation ...iskcon !Hence they will to a large degree remain inept until they understand srila Prabhupadas sublime utilisation of capital....laxsmi,land,labour and our worldwide organisation! Hence his...[Narayanna maharaja] futile attempts to win votes by politicing against our humble gurus and their wonderful service in contining our unique Bhaktivedanta iskcon legacy.....which he....Narayanna maharaja is not part of. The gaudiya line is generally totally unable to understand the full extent of srila Prabhupadas legacy!Due to their rather sad inability to appreciate his unique devotional mood of demons and devottes and just how to transform the unfavourable preaching environment ...especially within the west,to a favourable preaching feild using wealth,labour,organisation and land.They generally they see it as a material ability....almost like a mundane business!....When we see it as a sublime talent which krishna empowered our param-guru with!

> A pro giving time to a novice, would have to be an exceptional person.

http://www.oldchakra.com/articles/2001/05/02/diary11/index.htm

I dont believe what I just read (above). Can you believe this guy? The amazing thing is that he is convinced that he speaks for Srila Prabhupada, Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakur, Gaur Kisore Das Babaji, Bhaktivinode Thakur, the Six Goswamis of Vrindaban, Krishnadas Kaviraja Goswami, Narottama das Thakur, the Panca Tattva .... Lord Siva, Lord Brahma and all the demigods, the Pandavas, and ultimately the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Lord Sri Krishna!

Unbelievable!!!!!

SGD your level of english and grammar is so bad you are like a pre-kindy student minus the level of humor and wit that most kindy students posses.

Again! please use the "Check Spelling" link at the bottom of the edit box, yes it was put there for people just like you! Srila Pabhupada was a Bhaktivedanta "Great Scholar" long before computers and the advent of spelling checkers, so please do this forum and its topics some justice and use it and check your spelling , spacing and your grammar! Also please look up the meaning of sentences and paragraphs, these go a long way to making your text readable. Infact go back to school and learn english! If you cannot do that then cut and paste your submission into MS word and use the grammar and spelling checks there, that way you will avoid people thinking you are Bozo the Clown!

You just pasted that same Trash into the other thread titled "Is Srila Prabhupadas formula for preaching enough? Do we have to change it?" that is spamming the forum and you really think your same silly arguments apply to the same threads...OMG you are nuts, are you sure you dont work in a circus?

>>>Hence his...[Narayanna maharaja] futile attempts to win votes by politicing against our humble gurus

Humble gurus in Iskcon? Where? how? when? did something change and I mean radically?...can you name these humble Iskcon gurus?

Tell me what votes does N.M need to win? Watch the video in the topic "Narayana Maharaja speaks about ISKCON leaders" he thinks they are all totally in-sincere simply filling their pockets with money! and how can the Iskcon devotees be sincere if their leaders are in-sin-cere? You get what you deserve! in-sin-cerity begets
in-sin-cerity! You think he wants votes? LMHO!

He doesnt want votes he doesnt subscribe to the rubber stamp/voting process....One thing I love about Narayan Maharaja he is not afraid of calling a spade a spade!

>>>Due to their rather sad inability to appreciate his unique devotional mood of demons and devottes

Can you once, just once give us a reference where this is ever mentioned by Srila Prabhupada because I find this statement borderline insanity!

VEDA, as I said "he would have to be an exceptional person" Evidenced by the way the coach reacted :) and exceptional because it makes this story unique. Unique meaning un-common..doesnt happen very often...as opposed to common.

But you really dont get it it do you VEDA? I said the Gaudia Vaisnavas are the opposite; meaning: They not only give 10 minutes to the juniors (people like you and me) they give their lives to people like you and me!

Great story by Indradyumna Swami. I just wish the proofreader would have looked up the correct spelling of the name because he was Y.A. Tittle .. not Title. Tittle did win many Titles though.

Not only did the story emphasize the importance of giving loving and compassionate attention and guidance to children, but also the importance of being personal. Suppose you were to write a letter to some religious organization and in return you get a form letter response. Wouldnt you be disappointed? Wouldnt you feel offended? On the other hand, if you were to receive a personal letter from somebody who took the time and effort to answer your questions and encourage you to continue writing to them ... wouldnt you feel grateful?

Suppose it depends how you define Acarya.

Letter to Janardana -- New York 26 April, 1968: "The statements of
Thakura Bhaktivinode are as good as scriptures because he is liberated
person. Generally the spiritual master comes from the group of such
eternal associates of the Lord; **** but anyone who follows the
principles of such ever liberated persons is as good as one in the above
mentioned group **** [emphasis mine - Mmd]. The gurus from natures
study are accepted as such on the principle that an elevated person in
Krishna Consciousness does not accept anyone as disciple, but he accepts
everyone as expansion of his guru.
That is very high position, called Maha-bhagavata. Just like
Radharani,
sometimes thinks a subordinate of hers as her teacher, to understand
devotion of Krishna. A person who is liberated acharya and guru cannot
commit any mistake, **** but there are persons who are less qualified or
not liberated, but still can act as guru and acharya by strictly
following the disciplic succession **** [emphasis mine - Mmd].

Yeppers...I totally agree! the operative words being "but there are persons who are less qualified or not liberated, but still can act as guru and acharya by strictly
following the disciplic succession"

If we can find those that are strictly following then we have acharyas! However these acharyas must take siksha and give way to the liberated Acharya or Acharyas why would they not want to do so? If Just like Radharani, sometimes thinks a subordinate of hers as her teacher, to understand devotion of Krishna..what to speak of those that are liberated or are senior to you or to them.

No,SP said they can act as Acarya. They are not Acarya but they are as good as Acarya because they are strictly following disciplic sucession. So in this context NM can be as good as Acarya. Isnt it!
Ysvt.

Acharya is in the eyes of beholder

No,Sri Guru Acarya is independent.

Mundane votes have no jurisdiction to elect a Vaisnava acarya. A Vaisnava acarya is self-effulgent" (Purport to Chaitanya Charitamrita, Madhya, 1.220)

Because the gaudiya matha practically dissolved after Srila Bhaktisiddantas disciples failed to follow his simple instructions to form a GBC,they infact became useless....because they disobeyed the order of the spiritual master!Hence as his grand disciples and great grand disciples when we follow his wishes by following the current iskcon GBC we actually are pleasing several generations of our Bhagavat archaryaswho specifically include srila Bhaktivinoda takura.....srila Bhaktisiddanta sraswati takura and our own AC Bhaktivedanta Srila Prabhupada. However after veiwing this film of Narayanna maharaja again ,we would submit that he now appears to be a ambitious spiritualist who hopes to benefit from attacking the faith of our iskcon devotees.Such a mood was revealed by srila Prabhupada himself in Vrindavana
.All over india many babajis and gurus claim to be authorities on spiritual life,yet they find fault with Srila Prabhupadas honest efforts to rescue the fallen conditioned souls.Here in vrindavana,Srila Prabhupadas is especially protective of his vulnerable young disciples,always watching to see that we do not become infected with ideas that will poison our spiritual lives.He strictly forbids us to live outside of the temple,and in the past posed strong opposition to the tendency of some devotees to go off to Radhakund to live with a particular babaji there.He is very much on his gaurd to see that his spiritual children are not beguiled by envious or ambitious spiritualists.....He knows that such persons can easily undermine our faith and cause havoc in our spiritual progress.....These impediments to our spiritual life do not always come from non-gaudiya matha elements.Srila Prabhupada is aware that some of his godbrothers are less than enthusiastic about his acheivements.The natural respect for our spiritual elders weve imbibed from him could result in an unsuspecting fraternisation with members of their maths.This could leave us vulnerable to subtle impurities,derailing our dependency on Srila Prabhupada.So this is something he [Srila Prabhupada] is constantly combating.....from page 92 of a Transcendental diary...by hari sauri das.......Also please accept my failings as far as writing and spelling....however we are not american.We have been trained in the Queens english which many of you having come from the colonys might find differcult to appreciate....

SGD a lot of what Srila Prabhupada said... back then (in the 60s/70s) had to do with the fact that most of his new disciples were coming from a western background, they had zero knowledge on spiritual life, guru/acharya and God. So indeed he was right to steer them away from outside influences. Those days have changed it is now 40+ years later and many of his disciples have made considerable advancement and now have the strength to determine who is a cheater, why? because Srila Prabupada set the highest standard and if they have read his books then they will know who is Vaisnava and who is not.

Many devotees after being burnt by many fake gurus in Iskcon are seeking instruction from someone more senior to guide them to deeper levels of Bhakti. All that have left or not left Iskcon and have sought either shelter or casual association from either the late B.R. Sridhar Maharaja or N.M. Maharaja or the Gaudia Math in general have done so of their own accord.

The Gaudia Math did not dissolve or become useless after the demise of Srila Bhaktisiddanta far from it, he had many great disciples of course the foremost was Srila Prabhupada and all the rest maybe like comparing a torch light to the sun, but after the sun goes down darkness prevails and if someone has a torch light its better than being totally in the dark. The Gaudia Math certainly went through a tumultuous period after their Acharya passed away but so did Iskcon.

Most religious/spiritual organisations go through upheaval when the founder dies. The Gaudia Math never ceased their preaching and book publishing. Yes Iskcon may have created a GBC, but the idea of the GBC was to represent the wishes of Srila Prabhupada which it failed to do even while Srila Prabhupada was still here. The GBC may exist but it serves no function if so very few have any faith that it represents Srila Prabhupadas wishes.

By the way it is Queens English (captilised) and "differcult" is spelt "difficult" both in the USA, Australia, N.Z, UK and all other English speaking countries.

Simply use the "Check spelling" link provided at the bottom of the edit/entry screen where you type in...it really does work...try it!
(The American versions of the spelling you can choose to ignore if you wish)

Your veiw manasi seva is definitely not supported by our guru....AC bHAKTIVEDANTA SWAMI Prabhupada,he says his godbrothers were all affected by the same spiritual disease.And committed offenses to their spiritual master by not following his order!...Sorry these are not my veiws manasi seva but our Srila Prabhupadas.Please notice how srila Prabhupadas mood was that they became useless,because they all became infatuated by the desire for the archarya position!
Srila Prabhupada recalled that when he visited his guru maharaja at Radha kund in 1935,Srila bhaktisiddanta told him of a blazing fire that would occur in the gaudiya matha and how he wanted to rip up the marble in the bhag bazaar temple and use it to print and sell books.Srila Prabhupada said that this was when he understood how his guru maharaja could be pleased.
He explained that the fight for control of the mathas that occurred immediately after Srila Bhaktisiddantad disappearance was the first aparadha.It was guror avajna,disobeying the orders of the spiritual master.Since then many more offenses have been committed.
He remarked his godbrothers are now useless,because instead of combining together to preach vigorously and defeat Tirtha maharajas cunning,they were all simply scheming how to become next Archarya.Thus they could not unite successfully.They all had the same disease that infected Tirtha maharaja.Srila Bhaktisiddanta never said that one man would be the next archarya.Otherwise,why did he not directly nominate one?Srila Prabhupada said that some of his godbrothers claimed that Bhaktisiddhanta indirectly indicated Tirtha maharaja should be the next guru.But Prabhupada said this was just like impersonalists,who cull meanings from straight forward instructions .What Bhaktisiddanta Saraswati did order was that a twelve -man GBC[GOVERNING BODY COMMISSION ].... be formed in his absence.But they ignored him.
Prabhupadas comments were candid and revealing.It is apparent that among his godbrothers,our srila Prabhupada stands out as the one who truly desired to please his guru maharaja by vigorously spreading Lord chaitanyas movement all over the world.As srila Prabhupada himself often said ....phalena pariciyate,the value of something is judged by the fruit it produces.....february 12th ,1976...page 343 A Transcendental dairy.....sri dhama mayapura.

Manasi Seva -- dont waste your breath on an idiot. He still has his head in some DAIRY. This guy is incorrigible. Being a lousy speller and writer is the least of his problems. He misconstrues everything he reads, takes everything out of context, he misquotes, misunderstands and what really irks me is when he uses terms like "our Srila Prabhupada" while dismissing thousands of Prabhupadas beloved sons and daughters as offenders.

The only thing of value that this sri-govinda-das provides is that he is a perfect example of the kind of dull-headed, narrow-minded, programmed, cheerleader, apologist for the post 1977 upa-ISKCON. He is an embarrassment to all serious and mature followers of the Gaudiya Vaisnava sampradaya. I suppose he has convinced himself that he speaks for the entire ISKCON institution and its founder Acarya His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada and that is the real travesty, mockery and sham that we are witnessing. Yes, it is very distasteful and difficult to ignore because he spends a lot of time scribbling all over these pages of Pariprashnena. He has done a lot to discourage good people from participating here and he certainly cant take a hint (that he should give it and us a break and back off for awhile, if not permanently. Hopefully hell discover Dandavats and he can go there and stink up their website.

Oops -- have I launched a personal attack upon sri-govinda-das? I guess I did. Oh well ... sorry about that. I just couldnt resist.

Srila Prabhupada spoke very highly of some of his god brothers and including B.R. Sridhar Maharaja of whom he said was his siksha guru and he was great friends with NM Maharaja that is recorded in history so immediately we have two recorded examples that are at odds with the words you speak SGD.

What do you think happend when Srila Prabhupada left? He also did not appoint any sucessors! TKG decided he wanted the whole Iskcon world for himself but when the other 10 decided it is was all of them or non of them he backed down and they carved up the world into their little empires and what a mess they created and it is still not fixed. They all did scheme to become Acharyas and they fooled most people for a short time, the ones that were not fooled were evicted. But eventually water finds its resting place and their true colours were shining very visibly for all to see along with all of the their crimes against Srila Prabhupada.

As I stated before all organisations go through radical change when the founder dies and some even cease to exist and Iskcon is no exception. The Gaudia Math has indeed seperated into factions but that is an organisational/institutional issue. Just because the original organisation founded by Srila Bhaktisiddanta has split you cannot pass judgement on devotees and surrended souls. You seem to take great delight in justifying your blasphemy of thousands of Chaitanya Mahaprabhus followers simply because they exist outside of Iskcon.

SGD, you seem to be the one that is culling meaning that you would like fixed in concrete that was clearly a time, place and circumstance issue.

Indeed one can judge a tree by its fruits, and in Iskcon the fruits went rotten as soon as Srila Prabhupada passed away. Heinous crimes, gurus with guns, drugs, sex scandals, homo-pedophiles that abused a whole generation of Iskcon children, even multiple Murders!. So indeed what happened to Iskcon did they stop following Srila Prabhupadas instructions?

And by the way its Diary for god sake not Dairy! and as I stated before this book you are reading is by Hari Sauri who once as a Sannyasi was flying into Bangkok on his own visiting the prostitutes, and yes Hari Sauri admitted doing this publicly. He is one of the very few that has fully admitted his activities. I respect him for telling the truth but I would not be consulting his books for my spiritual direction.

Portnoy is correct this is a total waste of time.

> I would not be consulting his books for my spiritual direction.

Hes recording his time spent with Srila Prabhupada. If you can prove hes making things up, please do so.

In the history of the Gaudia Vaisnavas generally it is esteemed devotees that are asked by their Guru Maharaja to translate or write, this is not a rule sometimes its spiritual inspiration or other devotees asking them to write.

Hari Sauris is an account of the years he spent as Srila Prabhupadas personal secretary and the personal conversations Srila Prabhupada had and I think its great as it reminds us all of Srila Prabhupada and it is important that all of his history is recorded and stored safely.

However to take something that was said to a specific individual that related to a time, place and circumstance/issue like the fallout of the Gaudia Math after Bhaktisiddantas departure and make it sound like the Gaudia Math are forever condemned is totally ludicrous and like I said Srila Prabhupada accepted B.R. Sridhar Maharaja as his siksha guru (that is also a recorded fact) who was very much Gaudia Math, so this flies in the face of the nonsense put forth by SGD.

So I am not disputing the contents VEDA thats not what I said, but I wouldnt be deciding my spiritual future on it either and I certainly wouldnt be taking ad hoc quotes and looking to condemn other Gaudia Vaisnavas. Srila Prabhupada had a right to criticise his god brothers he shared the same Guru as they did.

Im surprised at you, Veda. Usually youre not that far off the mark. What does the validity of Hari Sauris DAIRY have to do with the inane dribble coming from sri-govinda-das? If I have to explain it to you then it would be an exercise in futility.

What I find shocking about a lot of Prabhupadas disciples, is that they have praise, respect, and benefit of a doubt for people like Guru-kripa and Bhavananda, while badmouthing great lifelong devotees like Narayana Maharaja, who took sannyasa 7 years before Srila Prabhupada, and lived a life filled with valuable service to Lord Krsna, preaching all over the world for years. There is no excuse for nonsense like that, none... What have these people learned after more than 30 years of practice? Not much.

An excerpt from a letter..the letter is from A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada to Sripada Narayan Maharaja dated: Sept 28th, 1966

These letters are scanned originals, showing Srila Prabhupadas Bengali hand writing (they are priceless!) along with the English translations, download them and they will bring tears to your eyes! If they dont then you are simply stone hearted :)

"I received your letter dated 20.9.66 on time. Our relationship is certainly based on spontaneous love. That is why there is no chance of us forgetting each other. With the mercy of Guru and Gauranga may everything be auspicious for you. This is my constant prayer. From the first time I saw you I have been your constant well-wisher. At his first sight of me Srila Prabhupada (Bhaktisiddanta Maharaja) also saw me with such love. It was in my very first Darsana with Srila Prabhupada (Bhaktisiddanta Maharaja) that I learned how to love. It is his boundless mercy that he has engaged an unworthy person like me, in fulfilling some of his desires. It is his causeless mercy to engage me in preaching the message of Sri Rupa and Sri Raghunatha."

How humble Srila Prabhupada was, all I can say is that I know so little!

Srila Prabhupada gets very dis-heartened by the lack of attention of his god-brothers to fulfill a simple task of sending him:
1) One pair of Radha Krishna Dieties
2) Very beautiful dresses, ornaments, crowns. Three changes.
3) Ten pairs of good quality Karatalas from Navadvipa.
4) Three good mrdangas
5) One Tambura
6) One good quality harmonium
7) Fifty harinama malas, neckbeads, and bead bags.
8) One book of Sat Kriya Saratdipika (by Gopal Bhatta Goswami and Sanatana Goswami)

Anyway Sripada Narayan Maharaja his most intimate friend comes through and all is delivered to Srila Prabhupada.

I missed Srila Prabupada by about twelve months, for all you Srila Prabhupada devotees out there I am so envious of you! that I was not born just twelve months earlier to meet him. I envy you like you could not know. Please bless me that in some simple way I can also serve Srila Prabhupada.

Reading these letters will immediately open a window into Srila Prabhupadas character and give you many realisations. He was no general sort of a man he was very specific and down to the last rupee and very upstanding in character to make sure that if anyone came from India (a mrdanga player) that he cannot be on a tourist visa and earn money on the side. Srila Prabhupada would not stand for it! Breaking the rules and laws of the USA, and some people here claim he allowed illegal activities to take place, they simply dont know Srila Prabhupada, he was REGAL! when you read these letters your jaw will drop!

Enough said read these letters I beg you!

http://www.purebhakti.com/resources/ebooks-a-magazines-mainmenu-63/doc_download/22-letters-from-america.html

Well Kula-Pavana the only one here praising Bhavananda is SGD and he is not a Prabhupada disciple. Mostly it is Bhavanandas ex disciples that are still enamoured by his Chelsea Girls Aura! But you are exactly right Kula-pavana some of these Iskconites they worship the homo-pedophiles and blaspheme the spotless devotees. All one can say is that you really know we are living in Kali-Yuga!

Sorry kula-pavanna but how can you be a confidential associate with Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura with little or no ability to preach?. Srila Prabhupada rejioned.They do not know how to preach .Neither they are trained up.That means it is his disqualification
He could not train them to preach....sorry but your present gaudiya standards need improving.Even our house holders are able to preach!
Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura did give him siddha Pranali initiation....however obviously he was not empowered to forfil the preaching mission of sri chaitanya mahaprabhu.Understanding your eternal nature and spirtual form within the spiritual world is important personally however that is a personal benefit,which Srila Bhaktisiddanta felt was of little importance compared to saving the conditioned souls!Hence he refrained from instituting this siddha pranali initiation process within his gaudiya math institution.Such paper tiger great souls do not flourish in the refined preaching atmosphere of Srila Bhaktisiddanta saraswati Thakura and Srila AC Bhaktivedanta swami....results,fruits and preaching potency reverberate eternally!

[quote][cite] manasi_seva:[/cite]Well Kula-Pavana the only one here praising Bhavananda is SGD and he is not a Prabhupada disciple. Mostly it is Bhavanandas ex disciples that are still enamed by his Chelsea Girls Aura! But you are exactly right Kula-pavana some of these Iskconites they worship the homo-pedophiles and blaspheme the spotless devotees. All one can say is that you really know we are living in Kali-Yuga![/quote]

Bhavananda is basking in the limelight in holy dhams Iskcon world headquarter temple. Same with Guru-kripa. Lots of their godbrothers still heap praises on them while badmouthing NM and other life long Gaudia Matha devotees. One look at Sampradaya sun will prove my point. SGD is a byproduct of that brainwashed bunch. On his deathbed Srila Prabhupada finally decided to bury the war hatchet, apologize and reconcile with his godbrothers. Too bad so many of his disciples dont want to follow his instruction.

[quote][cite] Kula-pavana:[/cite]
Bhavananda is basking in the limelight in holy dhams Iskcon world headquarter temple. Same with Guru-kripa. Lots of their god brothers still heap praises on them while badmouthing NM and other life long Gaudia Matha devotees. One look at Sampradaya sun will prove my point. SGD is a byproduct of that brainwashed bunch. On his deathbed Srila Prabhupada finally decided to bury the war hatchet, apologize and reconcile with his god brothers. Too bad so many of his disciples dont want to follow his instruction.[/quote]

[p]Yes very good point Kula-pavana, Srila Prabhupada did reconcile his relationships with his god-brothers on his deathbed, this is also recorded in history for all to see. He was a true gentleman and such a huge example to all. I am still jaw dropped and in awe of Srila Prabhupada from reading those letters he sent to N.M.

His analysis of the American public and who is worthwhile preaching to (the young and dis-enchanted) was so spot on and he worked this out in a matter of weeks.
On all levels he is truly a very astute man, and obviously empowered by his Guru and Krishna.

Here is another excerpt from a letter of Srila Prabhupada to Sripada Narayan Maharaja dated Dec 15th, 1966

"I came to know that my disciple Chandrasekhara from Delhi wrote you a letter, Chandrasekhara sent me a copy of your reply to him. In that letter I came to know that foolish Chandrasekhara had blasphemed you. Fools do not know how to honour Vaisnavas. By your greatness please excuse him. I havent instructed him to do such a thing. I only told him to visit you. Anyway excuse his aparadha. Chandrasekhara is a good man, but out of foolishness he used bad words to you. Please forgive him and me by your greatness."

So one can see that Srila Prabhupada was sending his disciples to visit his god brothers even back in 1966 during the Gaudia Math turmoil because he obviously had great faith in some of his god brothers.

http://www.purebhakti.com/resources/ebooks-a-magazines-mainmenu-63/doc_download/22-letters-from-america.html

portnoy, if you look again, youll see that I react to Manasi seva. No reference to SGD.

Ive read these SPs letters some years ago and theyre very interesting.

> What I find shocking about a lot of Prabhupadas disciples, is that they have praise, respect, and benefit of a doubt for people like Guru-kripa and Bhavananda, while badmouthing great lifelong devotees like Narayana Maharaja,

I guess the praise refers to what praiseworthy they did, not to _everything_ they did.

[quote][cite] VEDA:[/cite]
I guess the praise refers to what praiseworthy they did, not to _everything_ they did.[/quote]

If they extended this approach to Narayana Maharaja and other GM devotees I would consider it a fair deal. ----------------- Accusing an 89 year old life-long devotee (who spent the last 58 years of his life as a sannyasi) of having sahajiya tendencies for daring to focus on lila smaranam in his classes given to HIS DISCIPLES is unbelievable stupidity and ill will.

All glories to the sincere followers of Srila Bhaktisiddanta Saraswati Thakura,who worked with AC Bhaktivedanta swami Prabhupada to establish the Iskcon movement to forfil the desire of Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura to build the Temple of understanding within the holy Dharma of sri Mayapura.Thus creating the main branch of the gaudiya line and its dynamic worldwide preaching movement to forfil the words of sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu.That the chanting of Hare krishna would infact be heard in every town and village.
My manasi seva you are right ...the gaudiya line used to be for self effulgent Archaryas,however srila Bhaktisiddanta saraswati maharaja determined that a GBC should be the natural preaching vehicle since he was dissatisfied with his followers generally.Even such devotees such as Lalita Prasad ...were incapable of preaching within the unfavourable environment which was demanded by time and circumstances!
From Page 477...sri Dharma Mayapura.A Transcendental diary.March 21st ,1976.Jayapataka maharaja was instructed during the morning walk to arrange a meeting with Srila Lalita Prasada Thakura.The only remaining brother of srila Prabhupadas guru- maharaja,Srila Bhaktisiddanta Saraswati ,Srila Prabhupada wants to meet with him on his way to Calcutta tommorrow.
Apparently Srila Bhaktisiddanta had some difference of opinion with Lalita Prasada who is a bhabaji,a member of a class of reclusive devotees who remain aloof from the general population and simply chant the maha-mantra.His brother on the other hand was a sannyasi,an active preacher who created a large movement and attracted much opposition in the process.Apparently lalita Prasada considers himself more confidentially situated in his relationship with the previous archaryas and krishna.Despite this,Prabhupada has been negotiating to get either a lease or ownership of the birth place of Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura,the farther of Bhaktisiddanta and Lalita Prasada,and our spiritual great-great grandfarther.He wants to renovate the place and maintain a preaching centre there.Srila Prabhupada has met with Lalita Prasada previously,who said he was willing to co-operate with us.He has been unable to develop the birth site,but still his men are hesitating.He has a commitee to manage his affairs,and now it appears they want another meeting.
Without raking up the contraversial pionts,Srila Prabhupada made a few observations by which we could understand the actual symptoms of confidental service.So what is the use of such men?Why he is keeping these men?They cannot do anything.He gets some pension and he spends that money.But they are not doing anything!So what is the meaning of this commitee?
Jayapataka maharaja told srila Prabhupada that the thakura has admitted that many times he has told some of his men to leave their family life and take up some preaching,but they dont do it! How they will do it?
Srila Prabhupada rejioned.They do not know how to preach .Neither they are trained up.That means it is his disqualification.
He could not train them how to preach. Even sri chaitanya mahaprabhu,He was training Haridas thakura,Nityananda,Go there Do that! My guru maharaja was doing that.But he Lalita Prasada has no power.He cannot do it.... He simply talks that he is confidental devotee.Thats all he cannot preach.Otherwise Prabhupada developed this Mayapura and he could not do anything.
That means he has no power! He should have developed that place ,Jayapataka ventured.Yes,He simply talks of big ,big work.
In the Begining,Prabhupada had no commitee,nothing of the sort.That he will not admit,That he has no power to do so.....He simply thinks he is very confidential son of srila BHaktivinoda thakura.

Srila Prabhupada tried to get BVT house and (perhaps even more importantly) a collection of BVT manuscripts which he left in the care of Lalita Prasada before his passing from this world. For one reason or another, ultimately Lalita Prasada did not want Iskcon to have these treasures. Perhaps (rather likely) he felt that Iskcon does not reflect the mood of his father.

In the eyes of Srila Prabhupada, inability to preach is the greatest disqualification to a follower of Lord Caitanya. While we should respect his view, we should not disrespect devotees who focus on bhajana and have very few disciples. How many disciples did Jagannatha Babaji have? or Srila Gaurakishora? Less than a handful in both cases.

Without a doubt, Lalita Prasada was a very confidential son of Srila BHaktivinoda Thakura. BVT treated him that way and they were very, very close as evident form BVT own writings. BVT also gave him siddha pranali and left pretty much all of his earthly posessions to him. Why should we not think their relationship was very close and confidential?

sgd> ....results,fruits and preaching potency reverberate eternally!

Once upon a time, in a field, there used to live a bull and a pheasant (the bird). They were very good friends but pheasant was very old now. On the edge of the field, there was a big tree. Pheasant said to the bull, when I was young I could fly to the topmost branch of the tree very easily. But now I can not even fly to the first branch of tree. Bull said, "That is not a problem, eat little bit of my dung everyday and within a fortnight you will be able to fly to the topmost branch of the tree. Pheasant did not believe him but bull assured him that many men in the world are doing that."

So the pheasant agreed and started eating dung. On the very first day, he could fly to the first branch of the tree. And after a fortnight, he could fly to the topmost branch of the tree. Pheasant was sitting on the topmost branch of the tree and enjoying the beautiful scenery. The farmer saw the big fat, old pheasant sitting on top of tree. He took out his shotgun and shot the pheasant.

So, what is the moral of the story. Moral of story is that bullshit can take someone to the top but it will not let the person remain there for long time.

Hari bol.

SGD you need to mature up and stop blaspheming the eternal residents of Sri Dham Mayapur. The only thing you will achieve is to ruin your own devotional creeper.

Lalita Prasad Thakur was a son, confident and shisya (disciple) of Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakur and also brother and God Brother to Srila Bhaktisiddanta Maharaja you have absolutely no idea what or who you are talking about.

Our whole disciplic succession is a Babaji Raganuga (Siddha Pranali) line from the six Goswamis right down to Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakur and even Bhaktisiddantas guru Gaur Kishor was a Babaji. They did not wear saffron and take sannyas. Only Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu wore saffron and held the danda and the next one to do that was Bhaktisiddanta Maharaja.

But it would be a mindless fool that would start comparing one against the other and looking for some reason to blaspheme.

Srila Prabupada was doing emergency preaching and in his heavy preaching mood he said many things that he took back on his deathbed

"Sometimes in preaching work we say things [that are harsh or offensive]; sometimes unconsciously we offend others in this material world."

Everyone in Sri Chaitanyas family tree has a part to play or they simply wouldnt be there, of course Srila Prabhupada is like the shining sun but these are all Srila Prabupadas contemporaries and eternal associates. Please desist from this mindless aparadha.

"astute man"

We do not address the Spiritual Master like this.
Ysvt.

Wow ND what a great contribution two words removed out of the context of the conversation, are you really that lazy that you cannot: 1) Use the quote button so people know who you are referring to and 2) Place the whole paragraph in its entirety.

and what words immediately followed those words? "and obviously empowered by his Guru and Krishna"

The main thing is that somebody is willing to FORFIL the prophecy of Caitanya Mahaprabhu.

Know who this sri-govinda-das reminds me of? Mugs McGinnis from the Bowery Boys. Hed say things like, "are you giving me an ultimato" .. or "okay guys .. lets simonize our watches and meet back here in an hour." Hey - at least it adds some comic relief to the guys ignorant rantings, especially these days when he is so into quoting from Hari Sauris DAIRY. I guess in New Zealand people write their thoughts in a daily DAIRY in order to FORFIL their lifes work.

But this statement of sgd takes the cake:

"Such paper tiger great souls do not flourish in the refined preaching atmosphere of Srila Bhaktisiddanta saraswati Thakura and Srila AC Bhaktivedanta swami....results,fruits and preaching potency reverberate eternally!"

Now I can die in peace because Ive heard it all thanks to the Dunedin Dunce.

LMHO...exactly Portnoy, this show is becoming comical the more we throw facts and common sense at him the more he throws jelly rolls nutso at us...It reminds me of when I was a kid and you squeeze one of those toys with a whistle in it...the more you squeeze the more sound and in SGDs case NOISE comes flying back at you...only way to stop this is to stop squeezing...LOL...ooohhh but I just cant resist!...may I squeeze one more time...

You certainly know that Srila Prabhupada really did deliver the message to every home and village from the North Pole to the South Pole, especially when the Dunce in Dunedin is quoting the Lad from Skunthorp! (Hari Sauri)

New Zealand does produce a lot of Dairy products, so what is a Transcendental Dairy? One where all the cows are all protected and the milk products are offered to the Lordships? Would make a great label for some Devotee Business..."The Transcendental Dairy" awww hes a genius!

A wonderful exchange happened between srila Prabhupada and his grace BR Sridhar Swami.....Srila Prabhupadas godbrother B R Sridhar swami came in Prabhupadas car from his Matha in Navadvipa.He stayed for most of the afternoon.He and Prabhupada took Prasadam together on the veranda.Srila Prabhupada had him stay in the room next to his own,and after a light rest,they talked for most of the afternoon.
During their conversations they exchanged reports on each others preaching activities.Srila Prabhupada told me afterward that Sridhar swami regarded him as the real Archarya.Sridhara swami told him that Lord Chaitanya had given his prediction that the chanting of the holy name would go to every village,but he and his godbrothers had not taken this literally.Now by Srila Prabhupadas efforts he said he could understand its real meaning...PAGE 459,march 15,1976 transcendental diary.

Such sublime non-enviousness is symptomatic of a truly great soul,hence Srila Sridhar swami is certainly a qualified siksa guru and wellwisher of Iskcon .....,but also displays how amongst such great Souls he[srila Prabhupada] was truly foremost and really streets ahead!Hence not everyone was unable to fully appreciate the immense service and Prophecy forfilling nature of iskcon in within the worldwide preaching context or even india itself.

We have a saying here in America, sgd, and its NO DUH!

No the Spiritual Master is never referred to as man. U should know this. So lets not be foolish!
Ysvt.
HK!

ND Look up the meaning of context.

SGD for once we are in total agreement....I DONT BELIEVE IT!

I knew we would get there in the end!

Yes Srila Prabhupada was and will always be the foremost disciple of Srila Bhaktisiddanta Maharaja, I have never argued otherwise. I also think few other Gaudia Vaisnavas would argue otherwise, at least none I have spoken to. He still remains the Siksha guru of the world. He is like the sun, stars may glitter in the night but when the sun rises few can be seen while the sun is present and no other light source can be compared with the brilliance of the sun.

Fully agree with you!

But what is really funny is just a few posts further up you were arguing that all of Srila Prabhuadas god brothers were useless, so now that you have read a bit further in the Transcendental Dairy it seems you are changing position from calling them useless to calling them "his grace ....."

Amazing what Transcendental Dairy products can do, even for you SGD.

mmm I want some transcendental paneer and ghee.

I would think that only surabhi cows are found at a transcendental dairy .. and all around it are kalpa vrksa desire trees. Cintamani prakara sadmasu .....

there in no context where Sri Guru Acarya is referred to as man. Bas.
Ysvt.

Bhavannanda Maharaja complimented Srila Prabhupada as the only true resident of bharatvarsa.He explained that is because Prabhupada is the only one to actually fulfill Lord Chaitanyas instructions.Srila Prabhupada gracefully conceded.He acknowledged that it is now a matter of history!Then Srila Prabhupada mused for a moment,thinking of the differculties he has had with some of his godbrothers.He explained they are unable to recognise his acheivements because of envy.But he said that this was not a new thing.Even during the time of his guru maharaja,although they new Srila Bhaktisiddanta liked him very much,they would refer to him as kaca-grihastha,a rotten grihastha.And he said even know they are thinking,what is this?This grihastha has come out more than us!
Yet,Srila Prabhupada said that not all of the Gaudiya math men felt like that.Previously his Godbrother Sridhar swami had rented rooms from him in calcutta when he was still a householder.He recalled how Govinda ,Sridhar swamis cheif disciple had appreciated him even then.He always used to say to Sridhar swami that Maharaja ,you are seeing Abhay Babu as a grihastha,but he is more than many yogis.....A Transcendental diary......Actually we definitely have problems within ISKCON however what options are there realistically ?Why would we jion these embarrassingly small outfits who were generally envious and offensive to our param guru!Let the envious and unqualified drift towards Narayanna maharajas team as a few have....!They are expert at founding reasons why they no longer want to serve Srila Prabhupada and have chosen a new guru!.Personally i sincerly beleive Iskcon is better off without these fault finders and Blasphemers!

I am now convinced that sri-govinda-das is not a real person but an automaton. Theres no way a real human being with a viable brain could be behind the rhetoric that shows up here under that name. Yes, Im sure that were dealing with a clever software program that contains a large enough database to spew out pre-programmed responses to certain words or phrases. Most likely the developer was either an ISKCON GBC member or ISKCON guru -- or some rank and file follower who has some tech experience in writing software programs.

Sorry to disappiont you ,i am merely another preacher who has just returned from serving prasadam to hundreds of future devottees at our national day.Waitangi day is an opportunity to educate and benefit those who are submerged in the mode of ignorance !Unfortunately only my family members were keen to try and serve prasadam to the public.Since the three thousand dollar for site,generator,running water and bhoga just adds up....and one must infact be very convinced to try and offer prasadam at a minimal price....as we did ....without loosing ones shirt! So much financial risk.....just to attempt to please krishna and guru!But mission accomplished.....lost money giving out prasadam,but made it back selling sunglasses!Three days of serving chips,subji,rice,dhal to new people was indeed worth it but very exhausted......my teenage sons and daughter seem also to have imbibed giving out krishnas mercy.But the stress of the non-devotees trying to enjoy on a national holiday,when they cannot was experienced by them,also how everyone just gets drunk and intoxicated was very unattractive to them presently!By the way i saw no other preachers there....no Narayanna Maharaja or gaudiya math devotees once again displaying the immensely stronger preaching mood and emphasis within ISKCON servants which in my opinion is indicative of the Bhaktivedanta purports and unique preaching resolve handed to my generation from his foremost servants...especially Tamala krishna goswami and Bakti tirtha maharaja.Sankirtan ki jaya!

SGD I thought you were actually making some progress when a few posts back you referred to B.R. Sridhar Maharaja as "His Grace..." but then you follow it up with more Vaisnava Aparadha.

You refer to Bhavanada as "Maharaja" arent you forgetting he was tossed out of Iskcon and excommunicated because of child abuse and his homosexual ways, you continue to glorify those that have committed huge sins in the holy place of Sri Dham Mayapur and in Srila Prabhupadas house, yet you continue to blaspheme other great souls like Narayan Maharaja who was awarded Sannyas in 1952 by the same great Vaisnava who awarded Sannyas to Srila Prabhupada and has not fallen down once and has translated and written many books of his own and was also awarded the Vaisnava Scholarly title of Bhaktivedanta.

This is your signature, you worship and glorify the homo-pedophiles and you blaspheme the residents of the holy Dham.

SGD you are a by product of the Scamkirtan days of the 80s the sub culture of Iskcon that had nothing to do with Srila Prabhupadas mission, mood and philosophy, your many posts into this forum are ample proof of that.

Sorry manasi seva ....you are ill informed .We are very compassionate within Iskcon as Srila Prabhupada was !The magnificent quality of a Vaisnava is his over-riding propencity for being forgiving and allowing those who have fallin down to be rectified by giving them our association!Bhavannada Prabhu has been serving sri Dharma mayapura and Srila Bhaktivinoda thakura by forfilling his devotional legacy and creating with Ambarisa das....of Ford fame the Temple of Understanding!Which Ambarisa das has pledged $50,000,000 us.... for.Infact my freinds serving there have just recently come back to sell their homes and move there to help construct this immense devotional offering to our previous Archaryas.Since you are probaby further ill informed...manasi seva......please accept this wonderful offering to help you appreciate sincere devotional qualities found in a true sadhu.
During his walk srila Prabhupada told us how,according to chanakya pandit ,true beauty can be understood.Man with education is compared with the kokila .The bird,is very black,but his sound sweet,so sweet,everyone likes.Kokilanam svaro rupam vidya-rupam kurupanam nari-rupam pati-vratah.A womans beauty is how she is chaste and devoted to the husband.That is beauty,not personal beauty.Education is beauty for the brain .And those who are saintly person ,they should be simply forgiving.That is their beauty!Page 411...A transcendental dairy by hari sauri das...So prabhu a saintly person should infact be Forgiving....Simply forgiving!

Sorry manasi seva you miss quote me ....that was an actual event from hari sauri prabhus Transcendental Diary! I know bhavannada prabhu is no longer a swami.`He has not been kicked out of Iskcon...even when he fell down he was accepted back in sydney Temple.He has been serving ever since!And now he is creating the ISKCON spiritual city with his wonderful godbrother Ambarisa das.Our Srila Prabhupada was adamant that if his disciples forfil the devotional Prophecy of Bhaktivonda Thakura he...Bhaktivinoda Thakura would personally come down and take us back to the spiritual world.

where Sri Guru Acarya is referred to as man is example of the subtle mininimalist mentality so typical of the neo GM. No?
Ysvt.

[quote][cite] Nrsingha d:[/cite]where Sri Guru Acarya is referred to as man is example of the subtle mininimalist mentality so typical of the neo GM. No?
Ysvt.[/quote]

You should be careful using that line of logic. What you attribute to the "neo GM" is a standard feature of the ISKCON GBC-approved Prabhupada-lilamrita, which repeatedly describes ISKCONs founder-acarya as "a man."

Even during Srila Prabhupadas presence, Songs of the Vaishnava Acaryas was published, which referred to Srila Bhaktivinode Thakura as "a man." Was Srila Prabhupada an offender to his grand-spiritual-master?

Of course not! The fact is, the spiritual master is not a COMMON man. Depending on the particular case, he is either God-as-man, or man-as-Gods-supreme-servitor.

Treating the spiritual master as a COMMON man is a grave offense. The spiritual master is a man, but he is a man who is "as good as God." However, lets also remember that it is also an offense to treat any Vaishnava as a COMMON man. It is not that because we are fervent enough in praising Guru Maharaja, we gain carte blanche to abuse our Goduncles, Godnephews or Godbrothers.

Yes NDs comment is about me and a post I made further up, ND likes to take a few words out of context, he never quotes the full paragraph he pulls a few isolated words and then goes to town on them.

My paragraph was: "Yes very good point Kula-pavana, Srila Prabhupada did reconcile his relationships with his god-brothers on his deathbed, this is also recorded in history for all to see. He was a true gentleman and such a huge example to all. I am still jaw dropped and in awe of Srila Prabhupada from reading those letters he sent to N.M. His analysis of the American public and who is worthwhile preaching to (the young and dis-enchanted) was so spot on and he worked this out in a matter of weeks. On all levels he is truly a very astute man, and obviously empowered by his Guru and Krishna."

My very point was common men do not do what he did hence the last statement "...and obviously empowered by his Guru and Krishna."

ND practices the law of diminishing returns first he says I simply called him an astute man, now he says I simply called him a man. But if all this needs explaining then maybe I am in the wrong forum.

But if anyone here feels I have slighted Srila Prabhupada in anyway then I beg your forgiveness for that was not my intention.

Actually Tattva das raises some very interesting points, it is important that we see even the spirtual master as a man that in following his Guru Maharaja and Shastra has become as good as god and due to his devotion has become empowered by Guru and Krishna, because it means we can follow in his footsteps. If we see him as a God-as-man as the Christians see Christ that would make people feel it is not possible to follow his path for he is God-as-man and we are all sinners. Christians refuse to follow Christ citing this example, so instead they (Catholics) confess on Sunday and perform sinful activities Mon-Sat and on Sundays after church.

The Spiritual Master is a person.A pure personality. He is not referred to as a man.
Ysvt.

This strategy of gaudiya Devotees and especially of Narayanna maharaja to grab devotees by attacking their faith in Srila Prabhupadas gurus and the GBC,which manasi seva fails to accept .....either because he is in a spiritual vacuum within the gaudiya math or because he has been so busy serving krishna he simply is unaware!
But to re-initiate in itself indicates something rather important about their appreciation of diksha. It is seen by them as more than just an "initiation" on the path of devotion, but the mark that establishes an official relationship.
In other words, there is a question of ownership. "I gave you diksha, so you belong to me!!!."This is an important facet and gaudiya cultural understanding which those who give initiation like Narayanna maharaja are conversent with!
In this sense they are truly spiritually aggressive even at the expense of normal devotional etiquettes!Which in my humble opinion has been their implict intention all along!
They seek to grow through the already existing , under body of ISKCON....those who are dissatisfied,envious ,lazy and disinfranchised with the concept of the GBC as an authorised eccleciastical governing body.At least this has been my experience having interacted with them both personally and on the internet!
Due to their inability to spiritual disqualification and inability to replicate Iskcon and Srila Prabhupadas spiritual acheviements they have chosen this unsavioury substitute....even at the expense of losing their genuine devotional standards and reputation in many cases.
However these strange and anti-devotional moods have been present for a long time...as is shown by this excerpt from page 179...hari sauris diary august-october 1976.
Musing on the increasing level of recognition his disciples are getting,Prabhupada added,Our godbrothers,they do not like bhavananda.Eh?Jayapataka agreed.No ,They dont like me anymore either.When srila Prabhupada asked why Jayapataka explained their psychology.
They always thought,because i am not so outspoken,that Jayapataka ,we can get him to do as we like.but ultimately i dont do anything for them either,so now they dont like me either.Bhavannada was openly against,and i was passive.I did not say anything.He said that recently he had rejected an invitation from Madhava Maharaja ,to attend a festival because he was afraid of being poisoned.If not materially by poison,then spiritually by ear.
One way or another they have to give poison.Srila Prabhupada agreed that was their business.

SGD your posts are always so illiterate and so unintelligible that you do not do any justice to who you are quoting, so forgive me if I do not quote your unintelligible post correctly. I often cannot see where your quotes start and finish and where your inane babble and dribble begins and ends that is the danger of you discussing these subjects.

You quote:
"They always thought,because i am not so outspoken,that Jayapataka ,we can get him to do as we like.but ultimately i dont do anything for them either,so now they dont like me either.Bhavannada was openly against,and i was passive.I did not say anything.He said that recently he had rejected an invitation from Madhava Maharaja ,to attend a festival because he was afraid of being poisoned.If not materially by poison,then spiritually by ear."

This is so interesting that (Bhavanada the name that Srila Prabupada so aptly gave him. means one who is an enjoyer in the material world) Charles Baccus the person that played a Chelsea Girl in the film "The Chelsea Girls" a film about homosexuals and transvestites produced by Andy Worhol, which I could forgive if he gave it up. This sad vile creature that maintained a homo-sexual pedophile club in Iskcon Mayapur the Holy Dham of Sriman Mahaprabhu, that abused and destroyed so many children and never once asked for forgivness or apologised to his victims, who openly and continually had gay sexual relationships while pretending to be a Vaisnava Acharya is worried about being poisoned spiritually.

This comedy that is called Iskcon gets worse by the minute.

Bhavanada means nothing in Sanskrit.

MMW:
===> [ bhava ]1[ bhava ] m. ( uc0u8730 [ bhU ] ) coming info existence , birth , production , origin ( = [ bhAva ] cf. Vop
---> ifc. , with f. [ A ] = arising or produced from , being in , relating to ) cf. Yu257 j'f1. cf. MBh. cf. Ku257 v. &c.
---> becoming , turning into ( comp. ) cf. Ku257 u7789 h
---> being , state of being , existence , life ( = [ sat-tA ] cf. L. ) cf. u346 u257 ru7749 gP. ( cf. [ bhav^antara ] )
---> worldly existence , the world ( = [ saMsAra ] cf. L. ) cf. Ku257 v. cf. Pur. [ 749,1 ]
---> ( with Buddhists ) continuity of becoming ( a link in the twelvefold chain of causation ) cf. Dharmas. 42 ( cf. MWB. 102 )
---> well-being , prosperity , welfare , excellence ( = [ zreyas ] cf. L. ) cf. MBh. cf. Ku257 v. &c.
---> obtaining , acquisition ( = [ Apti ] , [ pr^apti ] ) cf. L.
---> a god , deity. cf. W.
---> N. of Agni cf. u346 Br.
---> of a deity attending on Rudra and frequently connected with u346 arva ( later N. of u346 iva or a form of u346 iva
---> or N. of a Rudra , and as such of the number 11 or of the 11th lunar mansion cf. Gol. cf. Var. cf. Sch.
---> du. [ bhavau ] = Bhava i. e. u346 iva and his wife Bhavu257 nu299 cf. BhP.
---> cf. cf. Vu257 m. v , 2 , 1 ) cf. AV. &c. &c.
---> of the 1st and 4th Kalpa cf. Cat.
---> of a Su257 dhya cf. VP.
---> of a king cf. MBh.
---> of a son of Pratihartu7771 cf. VP.
---> of Viloman cf. ib.
---> of a rich man cf. Buddh.
---> of an author cf. Cat.
---> n. the fruit of Dillenia Speciosa cf. L.
---> = [ bhavya ] , [ bhaviSya ] , [ bhAvana ] cf. L.

===> [ bhavAnanda ]3[ bhav^ananda ] m. N. of various authors ( also with [ zarman ] and [ siddh^anta-vAg-Iza ] ) cf. Cat.
---> ( [ I ] ) , f. N. of Bhavas cf. Comm. on the Tattva-cintu257 mau7751 i-du299 dhiti
---> [ 'b0dI-prakAza ] and [ -pradIpa ] m. N. of Comms. on it
---> [ 'b0dIya ] n. [ 'b0dIya-khaNDana ] n. [ -vyAkhyA ] f. and [ -saMgraha ] m. N. of wks.

BhAvAnanda: bliss of bhAva.

> worried about being poisoned spiritually.

You think that if a person is a gay he cant be spiritually poisoned? Why not? By listening to minimization of ones guru, etc. Material body and spiritual vibration are two different things.

VEDA as always you miss the point put forward, he already was poisoned and he wasnt taking his medicine. He continued with his poisoned activities and brought and spread fourth his poison into Sriman Mahaprabhus Holy Dham. He inflicted his poison on little children, the poison in his mind.

Yes the material body and the spiritual vibration are two different things, but if one is a Vaisnava Acharya and a Goswami then one would expect one should have unity in their thoughts, words and actions or deeds. All actions are preceded by thought and we see by his actions what he is thinking.

What are you saying? that a person can be a rampant homo-sexual pedophile (which according to you is only the material body) and at the same time be following his spiritual master and have the correct spiritual vibration. According to Srila Prabhupada and the shastra it appears not to be so.

> that a person can be a rampant homo-sexual pedophile (which according to you is only the material body) and at the same time be following his spiritual master and have the correct spiritual vibration.

No. I say that papa and aparadha are two different things. Thats also the idea of Krsna Bhajanamrta I linked above.
Without knowing details about Bhavananda p., I cant comment on his case, what to speak of judging him.

That is true that we constantly mix papa and aparadha, and consider sin to be more dangerous than aparadha. I can only blame Christian and Jewish cultural karma for this. Now Bhavananda did commit aparadhas, and a lot of those. But blame him for his sinful body is not right.

Narayana Maharaja 28th April 1999, morning, Caracas: "Also you should know that Caitanya Mahaprabhu is the founder of ISKCON. Swamiji, AC Bhaktivedanta Swami Maharaja is one of the prominent acaryas in this line only. He is not founder; hes one of the prominent acaryas, who spread all these things [over] whole world, in a very short time. ......So our guru SRILA AC Bhaktivedanta Swami PRABHUPADA is not the founder-Archarya of ISKCON....how insidious and pathetic.I have been in Iskcon for thirty years....initiated and who is this fool....but a friend of these other fools....portnoy and manasi seva.!
Actually both of you you are becoming half -expert at blaspheming and trying to degrade those whom do not share your materially motivated anti-Iskcon opinion.....Manasi seva and Portnoy .Now because you are unable to attack my humble devotional offerings,you attack my siksa guru....bhavannada das who has been serving his guru and thousands of devotees since the early seventies!Forty odd years!
Yes he did fall down ,through a homosexual relationship!....However he immediately followed the sastra and took shelter of his godbrothers in sydney ...Australia.After which he went to Sri mayapura dhama and has been serving ever since.My own life times of sins would infact derail anyones spiritual life in my opinion!So i personally have refused to be re-initiated,instead i took shelter of his godbrother his grace Tamala krishna goswami.
Why do anti-iskcon...Narayanna maharaja supporters such as Portnoy and manasi seva bring up this garbhage repeatedly?Because when they possess little of spiritual sukriti,penance ,austerity or realised knowledge they must resort to character assasination and sensationalism.And hence their attempts to smoke screen their spiritual frailties by attacking our present guru and proclaiming that only Narayanna maharaja is an uttama adhikari seems to them to satisfy their present nefarious needs.
Such guru-assasination is the intended strategy to hopefully destroy our faith in Srila Prabhupadas legacy.Which his Iskcon GBC represents......and by repeatedly attacking their weakened servants such as Bhavannada Prabhu,they hope you will take shelter of Narayanna maharaja as your saviour.
However they refuse to appreciate that Bhavannada prabhu has been very progressive personally .As a consequence he was naturally asked by Ambarisa das,to help him build Srila Prabhupadas spiritual city and the Transcendental temple of understanding and planetarium .Because of his personal training from srila Prabhupada and his expert management skills in the holy dharma he is now playing a important part and satisfying many of his godbrothers by his selfless service.However back to the present scenario.....why would we want to accept Narayanna maharaja as our saviour,when he usurps srila Prabhupadas position as the sole...... Founder Acharya of Iskcon by sneaky under-handed power plays!.

Where and how did I attack Bhavananda Shmucko? Im talking to you, sri-govinda-das. I can call you Shmucko, cant I? Or Shmucko Prabhu?

Bhavananda and I were great friends back in the day.

Besides -- my idea is hate the sin, not the sinner. Principles before personalities. I actually like Bhavananda. Hes a colorful, eccentric character. I dont care if hes heterosexual, homosexual, bisexual or trisexual. As a sannyasi hes supposed to be celibate. The problem I have with old Bhav is that along with ten other godbrothers he put his ass-on-a asana without any proper authorization (so-called appointment theory) and as a result of prematurely and without authorization jumping up to a position he was not ready for he left a gigantic mess behind him of confused and lost souls, many of whom feel betrayed and cheated. Gurus are not appointed. Gurus are not elected. Its all a horrible mistake and it continues day after day, year after year with no end in sight in a shadow society that still goes by the name ISKCON but which has strayed so far from Srila Prabhupadas instructions that I can no longer, in good conscience, advise a seeker of the truth to take shelter there. At this point in time all I can do is point the way to Srila Prabhupadas books and preach the glories of chanting the Hare Krishna Mahamantra. Its a sad state of affairs. Back in 79 I tried to reason with my godbrothers but they wouldnt listen. I was heartbroken to lose my home -- my alma mater -- my ISKCON. Now --- like thousands of others -- I am living in exile -- in the diaspora -- and still hoping that I will live to see the rectification and reemergence of Srila Prabhupadas ISKCON as the house in which the whole world can live. You may say Im a dreamer -- but Im not the only one .....

Yes Prabhu you can call me smuck...prabhu since you are my senior servant of Srila Prabhupada by age and Probably in devotional service performed.However how to rectify the situation from your angle of vision since it will actually be my generations time very soon!What would you suggest.....heres your chance since the managers in Iskcon in New Zealand and Australia can easily implement changes where valid.....to a degree!There is literally only one direct Prabhupada Disciple in our management structure with a very wonderful easy going Ramai swami whose whole mood and attitude is to encourage and facilitate devotional service for everyone. ...What have you got in mind?

We are very different Manasi seva and Portnoy Prabhus because i accept Srila prabhupadas mood and teaching as the Sole ultimate Authority in my spiritual life!

Maybe you do not realize manasi-seva that you are insulting Srila Prabhupada..........

It was he who set up the system of ISKCON gurus that you are now attacking in an extreme manner!.

Srila Prabhupada did not say that Narayana Maharaja or anyone else, should become the next ISKCON acharya.

Or.....can you infact show this within his letters ,writings or Bhaktivedanta purports please....otherwise one must accept he is from outside our ISKCON line!

So how are we ment to deal with these imagined visions of his being the real follower of Srila Prabhupada and the next archarya,accept to rightfully see them as simply the ambitious dreaming of an entrepreneurial upwardly mobile guru...looking for spiritual conquests or corporate takeovers...within a preaching environment!

You say that you are following Srila Prabhupada, and at the same time, you criticize the system he set up for guiding disciples and his future grand disciples. Srila Prabhupada said not to accept another spiritual master..... Srila Prabhupada said simply .....not to do it: "A devotee must have only one initiating spiritual master because in the scriptures acceptance of more than one is always forbidden." And yet.... the followers of Narayana Maharaja are saying that Srila Prabhupada instituted an inferior system and they are encouraging ISKCON devotees to disobey his order. Is this offensive behaviour if you accept Srila prabhupada as your sole Spiritual Authority....?Yes it is!

Do we as iskcon devotees come to Narayanna maharajas temples and attack what he does within his own environment?Certainly not!

So why do these Narayanna maharaja neophytes spread this nonsense amongst our junior devotees when visiting our temples? Hence the ban against such rascals is very necessary and legitimate in my humble opinion!

Nobody here said that Nayarana Maharaja is Prabhupadas successor. Its called a strawman argument when you put words in another persons mouth and then go about proving them wrong (about something they never said or wrote). Youre not a very bright individual, sgd.

Prabhupada did not set up the present system of gurus. He did not. He didnt. He did not. He never did. Never did he. No. Negative.Not.

The present system of gurus in ISKCON is a concoction. It is a deviation. It is misrepresentation. It is a travesty. It is a mockery. It is a sham.

And you sri_govinda_das are a fucking baboon. No -- not a baboon. Baboons are intelligent compared to what you are. You have the intelligence of a door knob. A dumb door knob at that.

Please shut your fucking mouth already. Go out and sell some sunglasses. Do anything. Dont go away angry -- just go away. Leave and dont let the door hit you in the ass on your way out.

We have to follow in the footsteps of Lord Chaitanya Mahaprabhu,executing our mission peacefully,or,if necessary kicking the heads of such protesters.Chaitanya charatamrita adi lila17.218...
To understand the vedas and remain fixed in the spirit of Srila Prabhupadas teachings,one must be loyal and submissive to the particular flavour and mood of our param guru.We should allow his preaching to shape our unique emphasis and natural expression of detail, further naturally exhibiting his own preaching style in unison with our own personal character of expression.

Her spiritual master is His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada, the founder-acarya of ISKCON, and world-famous preacher of Krsna Consciousness and Vedic culture, and the saintly spiritual master of millions of spiritual seekers. Soon after meeting him, she was initiated and given the name Jadurani dasi. (Later on, in 1992, he inspired his spiritual successor, Srila Narayana Maharaja, to give her the additional spiritual name of Syamarani dasi, and she became one of his first few disciples.)...
THIS WONDERFUL QUOTE EXISTS PLAINLY TO ILLUSTRATE TO THESE WHO ARE WILLING TO SEE THE DEMONIAC LENGTHS THESE SAD DEVOTEES WILL GO TO CHEAT US ALL!....
NOTICE HOW THE WORDS ...SRILA PRABHUPADAS.... .HIS SPIRITUAL SUCCESSOR,srila Narayanna maharaja......SHE BECAME ONE OF HIS FIRST FEW DISCIPLES!......This can be found in its entire form at the site Hare Krishna..Bhakti art,windows to the spiritual realm.

Giriraj Swami: I understood from our talk yesterday that you only wanted to ask two things: Vinod Vani about her statements at Visvarupa Mahotsava and Jadurani and Karta about their pet names.

Bhurijana Prabhu: And I thought Jadurani and Karta should also be asked whether they were capturing or converting other ladies by actively preaching and canvassing.

Giriraja Swami: Regarding the pet names, Id like to explain my understanding. He gave them the pet names. They didnt ask for new names. The implication of the critics is that the new names indicate some sort of gross or subtle initiation. I think thats the real question. He gave them the names; I dont think we can question that. I think the real question is how they understand it and how they perceive it.

Pancaratna Prabhu: The criticism I heard was Jadurani to Syamarani, meaning from Dwaraka-lila to Vrindavan.

?: So there are two parts to it. One is the conception that there is some sort of reinitiation, not reinitiation but additional initiation, taking place, some sort of spiritual bond.

Bhurijana: And also a question about disloyalty regarding the name Prabhupada gave them.

[Jadurani dasi, Karta dasi, and Vinod Yani dasi enter.]

Karta dasi: May I say something? I was the first person to whom he gave a pet name. It was due to a very simple thing. My name Karta means doer or creator. It is a masculine name. When I first came to Narayana Maharaja years ago and he asked me what my name was, I said Karta. It was interesting for him to hear this name and he laughed and said humorously, "Swami Maharaja had so many disciples that he ran out of names. I would like to call you by another name."

It wasnt anything. We werent meeting him. We didnt have a relationship. It wasnt really based on anything. It was just because its funny for him, who is familiar with the language, to call me, "Doer." Like, "Doer, can you come here?" Or, Creator, come and see me."

It was a light meeting, kind of natural. We were not establishing our relationship based on something that I understand about him in the spiritual realm or anything. So he said, in a rather light way, that he will call me another name.

It wasnt until about a year later that he said, "You know, I think Ill call you like this." So he said my name and then, "Will people understand?" And I said, "It will be only for us. Why should it be for anybody else? Its not relevant to anybody else." So thats what happened. It was light.

Of course, our relationship became close, so it might be taken in another way. But its only an affectionate way of addressing. He actually said, "Gaura Priya Karta." So its not even replacing. Also, it means a relationship. Like Krsna has many relationships with different devotees. Hes Yasoda-nandana, Devaki-nandana, Nanada-nandana, according to the relationship He has with His devotees. In the same way I see it like, well, if you have a siksa-guru (and I take him as siksa-guru), I have a certain way of relating to him. It wasnt something thought up, or an imposition, or adding anything. It was just natural.

Tamal Krishna Goswami: There is another point. Many among those who visit him have names which apparently have nothing to do with Vrindavan-lila. Was that the issue? Did you in this way get your "service name"?

Karta: Of course not.

Bhurijana: I would like to know. How many of the people who go and see him has he given names to?

K: As far as I know, only Jadurani and me.
(to be continued)

Tamal Krishna Goswami: After 6 years, all this commotion is about Narayana Maharaja giving pet names to two matajis. Unbelievable!

BP: I just want to add one little thing. At least for myself when I see Karta or Jadurani, I call them Karta or Jadurani.

PP: Do you have anything to say, Jadurani?

Jadurani: You all know I did the painting of Radha-Syamasundara. Sometimes people give nicknames to others on the basis of something done. Like Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura had one sannyasi who had some name, Gaura Narayana, or some name with Gaura, and he renamed him Badri Narayana because he visited Badrinath. It was a temporary name in relation to a particular situation.

So in relation to the painting, he gave me a name because I was serving Radha-Syamasundara or Radha-Syama. Radharani is Syamarani, the beloved of Krsna. So that service got me the nickname. Most of the times he calls me Jadurani and sometimes he calls me Syamarani.

Prabhupada also had a nickname for me, which was Sadhurani. Prabhupada told me, back in the late sixties, at 26th 2nd Avenue, that "So many of my Godbrothers nicknamed each other different names." Its quite common. So it is not unstandard. Also, Prabhupadas name, which he was given by his diksa-guru, Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura, was Abhay Caranaravinda, and then his Godbrothers gave him another name, Bhaktivedanta, which was further established at the time of his sannyasa initiation.

So its not uncommon in our line, whether its a nickname or a real name. It has nothing to do with reinitiation or disloyalty to ones diksa-guru.

Also on two occasions, one in New Jersey, when Prabhupada was convalescing from that heart attack, and on one other occasion, Prabhupada told me, "When you go back to Godhead, youll be a servant of Radharani." I did not then have the interest to inquire further. But I understand that Prabhupada wants me to go back to Godhead in Vrindavan. And Narayana Maharaja told me that your Prabhupada wants you to go not to Dvaraka, but to Vrindavan. So its all in connection with Srila Prabhupada.

Were talking in the Prabhupada Centennial about Prabhupada consciousness and being more in tune with Prabhupada. Perhaps not everything that we do now in service or in our zones or in relation to disciples has been written to us in a letter from Srila Prabhupada or in his books. But we may nevertheless feel that Prabhupada is inspiring us to act. When we give Bhagavatam class we often pray. "Please give me the words so I may give this class." So my heartfelt conviction is that Prabhupada instructed me to go to Narayana Maharaja. And if Narayana Maharaja did give me a nickname or try to sway me to Vrindavan, it is coming from none other than Srila Prabhupada. How is it being disloyal? I never met anybody who has given me so much love and faith and appreciation and heartfelt feeling for Srila Prabhupada as Srila Narayana Maharaja.

The above two entries are a transcription of a meeting that took place many years ago when the "Narayana issue" came to a head in ISKCON.

http://bvml.org/PDA/viagbanm.html (here is where you can read the entire transcript from beginning to end as I have posted only an excerpt and had to do so in two parts due to the length)

Before that time Narayana Maharaja was being invited to speak at ISKCON temples and Giriraja Swami, Tamal Krishna Goswami, Radhanatha -- so many ISKCON sannyasis, gurus and GBCs were respectfully associating with Narayana Maharaja and all was friendly and peachy keen. It was very similar to the situation years before that when ISKCON leaders were going to Sridhara Maharaja for advice (as Srila Prabhupada told them they could do if they had any questions). All was well until they decided that they didnt like the advice he was giving and made him off limits to all ISKCON devotees or else ex-communication. So the same thing happened with Narayana Maharaja. First all was friendly and sweet and then it all turned sour. So above is some of what was spoken at that meeting with Giriraj, Tamal, Jadurani, et al.

Personally I feel comfortable and safe with Srila Prabhupada as my diksa and siksa guru forever and ever -- always and in all ways. I do not criticize his godbrothers nor do I criticize my godbrothers who, after the horrific ISKCON meltdown in the late 70s and early 80s, desperately felt a need for guidance and inspiration and found it in Srila Sridhara Maharaja and/or Srila Narayana Maharaja.

Veda says I am vulgar. No - I am blunt. Vulgar is what this sri_govinda-das is. He is dangerous and poisonous and he continues to pretend to speak for Srila Prabhupada and make statements like "our Srila Prabhupada." Vulgar? I cant get vulgar enough in my attempts to shout this asshole down. You have a problem with that? You call me vulgar? Heres vulgar for you ---- Fuck You. Happy now that Ive proven you right you smug little punk who pontificates here like some high and mighty scholar. Im too vulgar for you? Dont read my posts. I could give a flying fandango..

"Those who speak bluntly 'a0are to be trusted."

-Chanakya Pandit.

[quote][cite] portnoy:[/cite]

Prabhupada did not set up the present system of gurus. He did not. He didnt. He did not. He never did. Never did he. No. Negative.Not.
out.[/quote]

what about this Portnoy prabhu?

Letter to Janardana -- New York 26 April, 1968: "The statements of
Thakura Bhaktivinode are as good as scriptures because he is liberated
person. Generally the spiritual master comes from the group of such
eternal associates of the Lord; **** but anyone who follows the
principles of such ever liberated persons is as good as one in the above
mentioned group **** [emphasis mine - Mmd]. The gurus from natures
study are accepted as such on the principle that an elevated person in
Krishna Consciousness does not accept anyone as disciple, but he accepts
everyone as expansion of his guru.
That is very high position, called Maha-bhagavata. Just like
Radharani,
sometimes thinks a subordinate of hers as her teacher, to understand
devotion of Krishna. A person who is liberated acharya and guru cannot
commit any mistake, **** but there are persons who are less qualified or
not liberated, but still can act as guru and acharya by strictly
following the disciplic succession **** [emphasis mine - Mmd]. It is the
injunction of the sastras that anyone who sees the Deity in the Temple
as made of wood or stone, or considers the acaryas and gurus as ordinary
common men, and discriminates Vaisnavas or devotees as belonging to a
certain group or caste, are called hellish."

Ysvt.

[Introducing ISKCONS .....Srila Prabhupadas spiritual successor and most intimate siksa -disciple!............Who is it ?......We ask.....is it my guru?Tamala krishna goswami?Is it Indradumya maharaja?Is it Bhakti caru swami?Is it hridyananda goswami?No!It is no iskcon man........thats right ,its the disciple of Bhaktiprajnana Kesava Maharaja.Who we ask in shock disbeleif ?Who is he?Why is it him we ask?Because he gave sannyasis initiation to our Srila Prabhupada!Why because Jadurani devi dasi.....also known as Shyamarani devi dasi has said so!Thats right she has said so on her web site! ... Bhaktivedanta Narayana Maharaj is his spiritual successor!]........sorry i cannot control myself........who are these fools ,but this is the garbhage they accept us .....the iskcon fools to accept!
[In November 1977, when Srila Prabhupada departed from the vision of the world. In 1992 Syamarani met his spiritual successor, most intimate friend and siksa-disciple, Srila Bhaktivedanta Narayana Maharaja. Just before his divine departure, Srila Prabhupada had requested Srila Narayana Maharaja to continue his mission. For the period spanning over two decades since Prabhupada'92s departure, Srila Narayana Maharaja has been unwaveringly carrying out this final request]This is simply completely miss leading .....False Propaganda!..............As Srila Prabhupada'92s successor, Srila Narayana Maharaja has also engaged Syamarani dd in painting for his temples and books. Once, in 1992, Srila Narayana Maharaja asked her,..............
Interesting how simple it is to become Our Srila Prabhupadas successor........Just keep repeating it and the iskcon devotees will except it!.....From this smooth writing style you might expect that Narayanna maharaja was infact as it explains .....his spiritual successor,most intimate freind and siksa -disciple.....Very adept use of the term ...siksa disciple!Almost makes one think he is actually srila Prabhupadas direct disciple!.............GREAT WORD PLAY and EXPERT CHEATING!
However i have been serving Iskcon for thirty years and have just started to hear about him!He simply is not mentioned as doing some signifigant service for srila Prabhupada.......in all of our books.
Infact the first time i heard of him was when my godbrothers told us he was involved in helping place Srila Prabhupadas body into his Samadhi!After Srila prabhupada had in fact left his body!
He was never a GBC man,never provided any signifigant service,never was initiated by srila Prabhupada, so where has he come from?
I repeat ......Where has he come from?Now he wants to take over ISKCON!............ha ha ha ha ha how amazingly funny!How absolutely incredible!What a mountain size cheater!ha ha ha ha ha they must think ISKCON devotees are really dumb!

Nrsingha d --- Im not sure I get your point. What are you trying to say? Anyway - when I say that Srila Prabhupada did not set up the present ISKCON system of gurus (as sri_govinda_das, the idiot keeps repeating) I am meaning that Srila Prabhupada never appointed eleven diksa gurus to succeed him and never requested the GBC to hold elections every year to elect new gurus. Thats all concoction. As far as who can be guru -- we are all instructed to follow our predecessors, make our lives perfect in Krishna consciousness, control our senses and make disciples all over the world. There is no restriction. It is our instruction and duty to aim for it. However -- it is not a mechanical process as in appointed, elected, selected, inherited, designated, crowned .... and that is the deviation that brought ISKCON down to an ecclesiastic shadow of its former glory.

I see a lot of writing in the last box before this post but its unreadable and unintelligible. Oh -- no wonder -- its from the idiot. Oh good -- now I know Im not missing anything by skipping over it.

Veda says I am vulgar. No - I am blunt. Vulgar is what this sri_govinda-das is. He is dangerous and poisonous and he continues to pretend to speak for Srila Prabhupada and make statements like "our Srila Prabhupada." Vulgar?
I cant get vulgar enough in my attempts to shout this asshole down. You have a problem with that? You call me vulgar? Heres vulgar for you ---- Fuck You.
Happy now that Ive proven you right you smug little punk who pontificates here like some high and mighty scholar. Im too vulgar for you? Dont read my posts. I could give a flying fandango..
Sorry portnoy cant find this in any Bhaktivedanta purport or any of his books......must be a deep esoteric code of some sort........maybe its the manasi-seva portnoy veiw, inspired by Narayanna maharaja team of preachers in Great Britain .Who recently hired a hall along the route of our Rathayatra festival......then shamefully try and steal our crowd trying to tell everyone the festival in in here!.....not at Bhaktivedanta Manor!.....Maybe its a NARAYANNA team thing .........This FUCK YOU!.....WHAT DOES IT MEAN PORTNOY PRABHU?

Announcement:

For the sake of your sanity and the health of your spiritual life ---- I strongly advise that you do not read, peruse, look at or even sneeze in the direction of the above comment made by sri_govinda_das. I have no idea what he wrote because I do not read anything he writes anymore; however, until further notice (or I get banned for breaking some ferkokteh rule) I will continue to monitor this website and each and every time I see something with the name sri_govinda_das attached to it I will post a warning such as this.

So once again ...

AVOID ALL POSTS AND COMMENTS WRITTEN BY SRI_GOVINDA_DAS.

Actually hes not a powerful nor intelligent enough personality to seriously harm a serious seeker --- but what he writes is so misleading and so absurd that its embarrassing and irksome to any genuine follower of His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada whose teachings are the source of all the knowledge that this website is based on.

If you enjoy the rantings of a mental midget, immature retarded fanatical basket case --- then by all means ... entertain yourself.

Thank you.

This will be repeated as long as this idiot insists upon spending most of his waking hours scribbling and dribbling all over this website.

But to re-initiate in itself indicates something rather important about their appreciation of diksha. It is seen by them as more than just an "initiation" on the path of devotion, but the mark that establishes an official relationship.
In other words, there is a question of ownership. "I gave you diksha, so you belong to me!"
This is an important facet and gaudiya cultural understanding which those who give initiation like Narayanna maharaja are conversent with. In my humble attempt to appreciate initiation i ran across these quotes......
In the Hari-bhakti-vilasa, Sanatana and Gopala Bhatta Gosvamis give a very detailed explanation of the process of diksha. In this description the whole process is summarised by saying that the only necessary and indeed essential act in initiation, is the speaking or giving of the mantra, (not the Hare Krishna mantra which is referred to correctly as Hari nam and not mantra).....But the Klim Krishnaya Govindaya Gopijanavallabhaya Svaha, by the guru into the disciple'92s ear (Hari-bhakti-vilasa 2.243-6). Hence initiation in this GAUDIYA context,actually means our second Initiation!In other words brahman,This is deemed to be the substantial passage of deliverance within our line. His[Narayanna maharajas] team have introduced a certain vague unpersonalised element into Vaishnava theology, the followers of Narayana Maharaja seek to link closely and identify their leader with Srila Prabhupada.
They then attempt to depreciate and impersonalise our ISKCON founder-acarya.....Srila Prabhupada,by vaguely doing without his most confidential teachings,his last will and testament and his foremost servants just to name a few....which they conveniently discard quietly to one side. Which allows a certain vacuum that in time with the proper environment introduced in some creative fantasy history will allow them in the door permanently! At least that is their intention!

sri_govinda_das: I spoke with your physician last night on the phone and he told me that despite his instructions you stopped taking your medication a few months ago. He explained to me the seriousness of the situation and asked me if I would try to encourage you to at least resume taking the psychotropic ones that keep you calm and help with the paranoid schizophrenia that youve been diagnosed with.

On behalf of your doctor, your countrymen, your family and the good folks who frequent this internet website ... and most of all ... yourself ..... please take your meds. Your doctor seemed like a nice enough individual who genuinely cares about your welfare. You should listen to him and not try to make such important decisions on your own. After all --- the person who thinks he can be his own physician has a fool for a patient.

New York Humour! :o)

[quote][cite] portnoy:[/cite]Nrsingha d --- Im not sure I get your point. What are you trying to say? Anyway - when I say that Srila Prabhupada did not set up the present ISKCON system of gurus (as sri_govinda_das, the idiot keeps repeating) I am meaning that Srila Prabhupada never appointed eleven diksa gurus to succeed him and never requested the GBC to hold elections every year to elect new gurus. Thats all concoction. As far as who can be guru -- we are all instructed to follow our predecessors, make our lives perfect in Krishna consciousness, control our senses and make disciples all over the world. There is no restriction. It is our instruction and duty to aim for it. However -- it is not a mechanical process as in appointed, elected, selected, inherited, designated, crowned .... and that is the deviation that brought ISKCON down to an ecclesiastic shadow of its former glory.
it.[/quote]

is not all that over now. Anyone can become Guru as long as there is no objection from the body of senior devotees or GBC. Is that not quite a good safeguard system?
Ysvt.

Nrsingha d: How did you know Im from New York? Actually the Portnoy" character in Phil Roths novel "Portnoys Complaint" was from Newark, New Jersey. Youre very astute though.

As for the present system of "anybody can be a guru as long as there is no objection from the GBC" ... I have some difficulty reconciling that with what Srila Prabhupada wrote to Rupanuga. This is the excerpt I refer to:

"If Guru Maharaja could have seen someone who was qualified at that time to be acarya he would have mentioned. Because on the night before he passed away he talked of so many things, but never mentioned an acarya. His idea was acarya was not to be nominated amongst the governing body. He said openly you make a GBC and conduct the mission. So his idea was amongst the members of GBC who would come out successful and self effulgent acarya would be automatically selected."

As we all know -- the one who came out successful and self-effulgent acarya was not selected by Gaudiya Math and had to leave Gaudiya Math because they had disobeyed the orders of their spiritual master. In fact -- those who maintained position and power in Gaudiya Math became very critical of Srila Prabhupadas successful preaching efforts in the West. Anyway - we know the history.

My biggest problem with the whole thing is that they never came out and admitted to their godbrothers and sisters and the general public that they made a great error by claiming Srila Prabhupada appointed eleven of them to immediately upon his departure to take the positions of guru and initiate newcomers. That mistake -- that deviation -- caused so much havoc and its easy to dismiss it that "oh, it happened so long ago" but the repercussions of that are still felt throughout the disenfranchised diaspora of exiled godbrothers, betrayed and confused disciples of fallen zonal (and elected) gurus ... and which resulted in so many schisms competing with one another. My feeling is that rather than admitting they made a mistake by saying two plus two equals three, they had high level meetings and decided to change the story and announce that two plus two equals five. Why not be HONEST and say, "We screwed up! Were sorry! We really did a disservice to our spiritual master and our godbrothers. Actually two plus two equals four. It always has and it always will -- let nobody be confused about that any longer."

At some point in time Tamal admitted to all of this in a private little gathering in what we called The Pyramid House in Topanga Canyon north of Los Angeles. Unfortunately he didnt follow through -- he became reinstated in his position (after being dis-gurud due to exposed ambitions to become the one and only successor of Prabhupada) and then it was status quo -- business as usual. Of course after that Tamal met with a terrible end to this life and we try to only remember his love for and service to Srila Prabhupada. So again -- principles before personalities. I would take a bullet for any one of my godbrothers --- but my first and foremost duty is to remain alert for the wrong and that which sullies the legacy of my guru maharaja.

Anyway -- I think that honest and intelligent discussion and exchanges on this topic is healthy and continues to be relevant. What I cant tolerate is the childish "you are an envious demon offender if you criticize ISKCON in any way" crap that continues to pour out of one particular participant here.

At the ultimate centre of all things is the divine couple Radha and Krishna and all of their exalted servants, devotees, relationships and pastimes, as Srila Prabhupada has written volumes about, talked endlessly about and even passed from this world with the words on his tongue. The simple acid test is are we being drawn closer to our eternal home? back to godhead? is our love for the servant of the servant of the servant increasing? Are we are making progress on this path, do we find our selves being drawn closer to the centre? If not why not? I ask this question of myself constantly. All we need to do is to accept that which is favourable and draws us closer to the divine centre and reject that which draws us away. Everything else is a complication that we do not need and we can go on arguing about for eons. The eternal realm is accessible here and now all we have to do is want it and be deserving of it, as Srila Prabhupada has taught us. I know I fail this qualification and probably always will.

I want to apologise to all aspirants of Radha and Krishna in this forum whatever camp you are in, its not for me or anyone else to tell you who can inspire you and who cannot, that is an aspect of freedom that we all have. So please forgive my rantings, verbal abuse and criticism, all of this only serves to bring separation, hate and misunderstanding and can only serve to draw us away from the divine couple.

And if what I have said here is wrong then please pray for me.

Dandavats.

Manasi-seva:

Youre a better man than I am, Gunga Din.

[quote][cite] portnoy:[/cite]
As for the present system of "anybody can be a guru as long as there is no objection from the GBC" ... I have some difficulty reconciling that with what Srila Prabhupada wrote to Rupanuga. This is the excerpt I refer to:
"If Guru Maharaja could have seen someone who was qualified at that time to be acarya he would have mentioned. Because on the night before he passed away he talked of so many things, but never mentioned an acarya. His idea was acarya was not to be nominated amongst the governing body. He said openly you make a GBC and conduct the mission. So his idea was amongst the members of GBC who would come out successful and self effulgent acarya would be automatically selected."
.[/quote]

This is referring to an Arcarya. Isnt it? Not a regular Guru because even BSST authorised certain disciples who where going to England to iniatiate Hari-nam.

I agree though that no regular Guru should have the pretense and profile of Acarya. However that might be down to dumb disciples who cant or do not want to see the obvious difference.

Thanks for association prabhu.

Jaya Swami Srila Prabhupada!

Ysvt.

[quote][cite] Nrsingha d:[/cite][quote][cite] portnoy:[/cite]
As for the present system of "anybody can be a guru as long as there is no objection from the GBC" ... I have some difficulty reconciling that with what Srila Prabhupada wrote to Rupanuga. This is the excerpt I refer to:
"If Guru Maharaja could have seen someone who was qualified at that time to be acarya he would have mentioned. Because on the night before he passed away he talked of so many things, but never mentioned an acarya. His idea was acarya was not to be nominated amongst the governing body. He said openly you make a GBC and conduct the mission. So his idea was amongst the members of GBC who would come out successful and self effulgent acarya would be automatically selected."
.[/quote]

This is referring to an Arcarya. Isnt it? Not a regular Guru because even BSST authorised certain disciples who where going to England to iniatiate Hari-nam.

I agree though that no regular Guru should have the pretense and profile of Acarya. However that might be down to dumb disciples who cant or do not want to see the obvious difference.

Thanks for association prabhu.

Jaya Swami Srila Prabhupada!

Ysvt.[/quote]

This quote refers to an Acharya of the Gaudiya Matha institution, not a guru in the typical sense of the word. ----------------- Being ignorant of the tradition, most Western disciples of SP confuse these two terms and engage in all kinds of battles between themselves. Prabhupada did not want a single Acharya in Iskcon, but he wanted his disciples to be gurus. How hard is that to understand? --------------- Instead of focusing on preaching, his disciples are embroiled in the most idiotic debates over the guru issue, while the newcomers look at them like they are infected with some strange mind-numbing virus.

Well no duh -- Prabhupada wanted all his disciples to be gurus and theres a difference between acarya and guru. Thats not the issue. Your skimming off the top, Kula Pavana. The deeper issue is that eleven of my godbrothers announced that they were appointed to be not just gurus --- but pure devotees. Thats the issue. They sat their conditioned asses on Vyasa Asanas, took ridiculous names and amassed thousands of disciples and tends of thousands of dollars. They all became little acaryas on the basis of a gigantic misunderstanding/hoax. How hard is that to understand? Do you have any idea what that led to? I think youre living in some personal little dream world, Kula Pavana. Todays ISKCON is having to deal with fallen gurus and what to do with their poor confused disciples and its all because somethings rotten in Denmark. You think all is well and to bring up the issue is idiotic. Fine and dandy. Take your rose colored glasses off and see the mess due to total misunderstandings.

Whats your point anyway .... that anybody who brings up these issues is an idiot because they dont have the crystal clear vision you have? Wow -- thats assuming a lot. Give yourself a big pat on the back, sonny. I take back my taking back of calling you a puffed up jerk. Did I call you a puffed up jerk? In case I didnt Ill make it official. Youre a conceited pseudo-intellectual narcissist.

[quote][cite] portnoy:[/cite] The deeper issue is that eleven of my godbrothers announced that they were appointed to be not just gurus --- but pure devotees. Thats the issue. They sat their conditioned asses on Vyasa Asanas, took ridiculous names and amassed thousands of disciples and tends of thousands of dollars. [/quote]

Who let them do that? And why were they able to do so? Because by and large devotees have become brainwashed into believing just about anything some Iskcon authority was telling them, despite how contrary to the common sense, logic, and direct perception it was. It was the culture of: stop thinking and just surrender to the spiritual authority.... I never believed Harikesa was good as God or pure devotee - I simply accepted him as a senior devotee, placed by Prabhupada in the position of initiating guru... just the facts, mam... -------------------- And my point was that the guru debate within Iskcon is FAR from over or concluded. I see it pop-up just about everywhere everyday. ------------------- Btw. Iskcon started falling apart not just because of unqualified gurus sitting on vyasasanas... there were dozens of other reasons as well. Iskcon was a textbook Lord of the Flies case... bunch of boys on a deserted island playing imitation life...

When the GBC allows a devotee to take up the service of initiating, it does not thereby endorse him as an uttama adhikari or "pure devotee" or certify his having achieved any specific state of realization. Rather, the GBC indicates that it has no objection to his initiating disciples within ISKCON. (GBC Res. 2004, 409)

I love this thread, and others similar to it!

I mean - given the name-calling etc. that goes on here between some posters, and seeing that the sun still shines - it must be that God is extremely patient and merciful.

Someone like Jehovah would have sent fire and brimstone! Hed have taken away the offenders sanity and memory, and make them become a driveling idiot.

Krishna consciousness must be really powerful! If people who call other devotees names are still able to remember the name Krishna and the names of His pure devotees, are still able to chant their rounds, be vegetarians and so on - then Krishna consciousness is apparently something much more potent than anything else I know.

Chaitanya Mahaprabhu and his associates are pleased even with the shadow of bhakti, so yes, praise the Lord!! (Mahaprabhu)

So kula pavanna and portnoy why dont you just do the same as your godbrothers, since you are Prabhupada disciples.....take thousands of disciples and millions of dollars and serve krishna!Since srila Prabhupada has passed on, you have the instruction and authority from your guru....what is the problem!Just get serious and you will become empowered, like your godbrothers are becoming!Please explain why you are not following the order of guru and krishna and taking disciples,or are you just intent on just complaining?
What foolishness are you babbling about ISKCON falling apart ,yesterday while at the temple we had a feast attended by the 100 or so local initiated devotees and extremely opulent prasadam.We are still booming internationally,with over 250 odd temples. However some smaller centres might be struggling, i have not seen or heard of any within our yatra though.

[quote][cite] sri_govinda_das:[/cite]Please explain why you are not following the order of guru and krishna and taking disciples,or are you just intent on just complaining?[/quote]

How many disciples do you have, oh Guru SGD?

I am a guru for seven to twenty followers prabhu,but we are from maori culture so actually soon it might grow to thousands because my great-great grandfather was paramount cheif here in New Zealand.....but i am not enviously trying to find fault,where non-exists mung.Fall downs were also actually wide spread amongst the Gaudiya math also!Ananta vasudeva even became bewildered to the SUBLIME authenticity of our guru parampara.But because they are practically impotent in the western world,does anybody care?

As an example of their different mode of service i offer this specific informative example!
Recently in Auckland ,New Zealand we were witness to the wonderful sight of a land-breaking ceremony and installation of ananta sesa diety. The followers of Narayanna maharaja had enthusiastically gathered a large congregation ,with especially one Punja family member offering to bankroll their wonderful Radha krishna temple.This wonderful preaching opportunity was initiated with much celebrating and grand words of rejoicement and anticipation.Myself when i heard the news i thought it was indeed a special time for all the whole Vaisnava community.Somewhat surprised that they were boldly attempting this huge project.....,i non-the -less expressed a warm and enthusiastic encouragement that they do well .
Such a huge financial undertaking places immense pressure on a select few , to infact raise the money!Some old freinds who were leading them ,were adament that they would do it!We waited in anticipation.......
Unfortunetly recently i was informed by some other devotees that the bank had foreclosed on their grand project.With the quiet ruthless liquidation and efficent seizure of their land and assets,leaving them spiritually embarrased and financially destitute.Many cogregational members were shocked,bewildered and angry that their donations had been taken by the bank.....with no benefit for krishna or his devotees!However it was all huss huss,with no official word or excuse given or offered to their sincere members!
Failure is always differcult,but Spiritual failure is an earth shattering experience,such immature plans and schemes are usually covered in ISKCON by the local GBC.Who is able to motivate ,encourage and enthuse those raising laxmi for the project!He also can call upon BBT LOANS to help in times of emmergency.
However this was a Narayanna maharaja project..... without our iskcon expertise and our sankirtan do what ever is necessary to succeed spirit.
Nearing the completion of Radha-giridharis bank loan,here in Auckland, i think this might be my last local temple constrution.With a mere 200,000 dollars left to pay,and having helped build 5 major temples in my time i can appreciate how difficult such projects are.
But it is interesting the difference in mentality and service attitudes now for those within the Nartayanna maharaja camp and the same devotees when they were previously ISKCON followers!Now they do not exude that hunger to succeed by personally taking responsibility for this project in my humble veiw.We used to sell any number of tee shirts,paintings,sunglasses and stickers to just pay the bills within iskcon.
Now twenty years later they seem older,and simply less empowered by krishna for what ever reason.Are they still willing to everything possible to keep failure away?....I think not .....for what ever reason.Could it have anything to do with a different guru and philosophy?......I think so but either way it is not good that vaisnava temples are failures and get seized by the banks!Success is radharanis kladini shakti......so where was she in their teams offering one might ask!

I wouldnt know I am not in New Zealand and I am not a disciple or follower of Narayan Maharaj. I have only ever tried to defend him as a great friend of Srila Prabhpada and as a wonderful Viasnava in the family tree of Chaitanya Mahaprabhu.

But as the Bhagavad Gita states and Srila Prabhuada always taught, its the service and intent not the outcomes, we are not supposed to be attached to the results only the service. Radha and Krishna only see the love and the service. When Srila Prabhupada first went to New York he started preaching to the high society and it was unsuccessful, he states in his letters they are a demonic and a waste of time, so he readjusted his preaching and he found the dis-enchanted youth of the 60s counter culture who were far more receptive to Lord Chaitanyas teachings.

The Pandavas were exiled from their Kingdom, but they never gave up their love and faith in Krishna.

SGD, You should leave the criticism of Srila Prabhupadas god brothers and nephews to Srila Prabhupada...he knew them you dont.

Under the Chaitanya Math mission the famous Yoga Pith, Srivas Angan, and other holy places in the Dham are maintained, this service alone is not to be compared with anything in this material realm, and Srila Prabhupadas guru Bhaktisiddanta Maharaja started the Gaudiya Math so it seems completely silly for anyone to be critisizing them. What ever issues they had that is between them and Bhaktisiddanta Maharaja.

No where in the history of the Gaudiya Math have I heard they ever molested children, unfortunately I cannot say that about Iskcon. Yet Srila Prabhupada himself established so many temples and left the greatest example and was without flaw.

Iskcon also lost temples and farms due to lack of funds and or bad management, but can we say all of the hard work and service the devotees put into those farms or temples was wasted and of no use? Absolutely not.

Each camp can point its finger to the other camp using what ever issue is at hand to try denigrate each other but all we do is denigrate the face of Gaudiya Vaisnavism.

SGD you sound like a little kid in the sandpit, saying your toys are better then everyone elses toys. Grow up and mature, and show a better example.

I am so surprised that you, who claims to be the chief of a Maori tribe can behave like this. I thought some of these ancients tribes had wisdom, humility and a deep understanding, but you show none of these qualities at all. All you need do is pray and hope that Chaitainya Mahaprabhu will forgive you for all the offenses that you are committing.

[quote][cite] sri_govinda_das:[/cite]I am a guru for seven to twenty followers prabhu,but we are from maori culture so actually soon it might grow to thousands because my great-great grandfather was paramount cheif here in New Zealand.....but i am not enviously trying to find fault,where non-exists mung.Fall downs were also actually wide spread amongst the Gaudiya math also!Ananta vasudeva even became bewildered to the SUBLIME authenticity of our guru parampara.But because they are practically impotent in the western world,does anybody care?[/quote]

Seven to twenty? Thats quite a gap, do you have problems counting or do you have part time followers, oh Guru Maharaj? Forgive me, Im not fault finding. My intelligence is so low that I cannot comprehend your statements.

Okay - this has to stop. Some sort of intervention needs to take place here. This isnt funny anymore. I wouldnt care at all but this screwball is screaming into his bull(shit) horn that he is representing His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada -- his mission, his teachings, his legacy. This is beyond blasphemy and aparadha -- this is friggin insane and it has to stop.

My recommendations is that immediately (if not sooner) whomever runs this outfit should put the kaibash on all further rantings of this guy who calls himself sri_govinda_das. Secondly -- is there anybody listening (and the chances are slim and none considering the extremely small readership here) who is either in geographical proximity to New Zealand or who has any knowledge of who this guy really is -- who is in charge of him (does he even have any accountability within the ISKCON organization?) ..... and alert the powers that be about whats going on here.

This really has to stop. Ive gone from amused to angry after reading his barely legible scribblings but now hes telling us he has between six and twenty disciples. Is that something like four and twenty blackbirds baked in a pie?

My intention was to stay away from this website because Ive pretty much said what I have to say --- rattled a few cages, yanked a few chains, pulled a few covers and learned a few things about myself. But then I log on and see this last post of his and Im sorry -- Ive got to at least try to shine a light on the urgency of this situation. This should not go on. This is a public site and he is making a mockery of Srila Prabhupada. Where is the respect? Where is the reverence? Come on -- moderate for cryin out loud. Administrate. Wake up and smell the chai.

I suggest that this topic is closed.

The path of love twists and turns like a snake. Accordingly, lovers tend to quarrel -- sometimes with good reason, but often for no reason at all. Ujjvala-nilamani 15.102

COMPILATION 1: Narayana Maharaja Mathura, October 24, 1999: "We can glorify Swamiji, Bhaktivedanta Swami Maharaja. But those who are falling down, how can they glorify him? They cannot glorify him, never; they are cutting. They are establishing that he was the founder of ISKCON, but I know that he was not founder, he was one of the members of this in guru parampara. It was founded by Krishna, and first acarya was Brahma, then Narada, then Vyasa. Only he has changed the name and he has preached these things in Western countries." So who is confused ,that they do not know who is the Founder-Archarya of ISKCON?.......Narayanna maharaja,Tirtha maharaja,Govinda maharaja....certainly not?
"A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada is the Founder-Acarya of ISKCON" to mean anything different then Srila Prabhupada being the founder of the organization that goes by the name of ISKCON. So what is the point in Srila Narayana Maharaja stating what everyone already knows? Does anyone for a second think that the title "Founder-Acarya of ISKCON" concerns general vaisnavaism........
"All of you who are following this disciplic succession are ISKCON. Dont think that you are not. I am ISKCON. Im not different from ISKCON. I am Bhaktivedanta [Srila Bhaktivedanta Narayana Gosvami Maharaja]. Like father, like son. I am the real successor of Srila Bhaktivedanta Swami Maharaja, and there is no other. You should know this very openly." .......These quotes are very nefarious in nature in my humble opinion!
Recently a freind went to a gaudiya math meeting,was very surprised to be offered initiation by a representative of Govinda maharaja.She gratefully accepted and received a spiritual name ......but has not really done any other service for the matha.Neither does she chant a set number of rounds.Yet she is initiated according to the devotees of their matha....
Compare this to my encouraging my whanau to chant sixteen rounds ....which they religiously do every day! .They also are very surrendered ,and are willing to serve in the temple kitchen when frequently asked to serve.They serve everyday in our tribal business which we own personally,sometimes 16 hours a day.As a result they are extremely humble subservient and pure in nature compared to other devotional children and young adults in our iskcon community.
If they refuse some service they are put into line by their mothers or whanau elders!Our maori culture is reliant on the followers following their leaders like an army in essence and little confusion is tolerated.
Hence naturally i have given spiritual names to seven children and young adults who have now chanted sixteen rounds for over four years....some it is up to ten years.Another 13 freinds seek regular guidance and i would seek to guide them within the palangi world.My freinds at the temple ask my wife why our whanau devotees are so wonderful devotees compared to their children and teenagers?Since they naturally serve their elders!
My wife has been instructed to tell them that if they spoil the children....they ruin them,sometimes a quick slap is necessary!Which horrifies and scares the devotee mothers and farthers.However our culture is a ksatriya mood and is meant for obediance and submission to elders and guru by the followers.!We have a history of being Ratana church from birth,instead i decided that everyone in my whanau line would instead become krishna bhaktas instead!
So yes i am guru for them,and i will chose their diksa guru for them also if they so desire!Because we will move as a team...within the iskcon team itself!Which naturally is how we see life as a whanau family!i will also arrange the marriages of the young girls as they become mature around 15 years of age,much according to the vedic culture also.Since we are not palangior white people in mood and spirit it was natural to guide them in this way.Hence we have a brahminical family culture in seed form....within our whanau maori tribal group!

http://www.harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/02-10/editorials5741.htm
ysvt.

[quote][cite] sri_govinda_das:[/cite]So kula pavanna and portnoy why dont you just do the same as your godbrothers, since you are Prabhupada disciples.....take thousands of disciples and millions of dollars and serve krishna![/quote]

There is no need for me to take any disciples. For the last 30 years I have been helping hunderds of new people join our movement and helping hundreds of initiated devotees stay in Krsna consciousness because their gurus were not really doing their job. I have translated and printed thousands of books, established a couple of temples, personally collected tens of thousands of dollars for Iskcon. I am happy to work in that capacity. --------------------------------

I appreciate the good work some Iskcon gurus are doining, but I also see serious problems in our society which must be addressed in order to ensure survival of this mission. Disrespect to other Vaishnava missions and their leaders is one of such problems. Before you find faults with others you should closely examine your own pile of dung.

[quote][cite] sri_govinda_das:[/cite]Recently a freind went to a gaudiya math meeting,was very surprised to be offered initiation by a representative of Govinda maharaja.She gratefully accepted and received a spiritual name ......but has not really done any other service for the matha.Neither does she chant a set number of rounds.Yet she is initiated according to the devotees of their matha....
[/quote]

Believe it or not, but this is pretty much how GM operated from the earliest days of Srila Bhaktisiddhanta. He initiatied about 25000 people and only a small fraction of them chanted more than 4 rounds per day (which was a standard for the hari-nama initiation back then).

Sorry kula-pavanna ....this is infact Narayanna maharajas pile of Dungas you gracefully put it!It is infact his offensive behaviour!
Am i ...... the one who is infact Re-initiating Srila Prabhupadas Disciples ?Like Jadurani devi dasi....also re-initiated as Shyamarani devi dasi .Along with former disciples of ISKCON....balarama das,Drystadumya maharaja ect.Just to name a few!
Am i .......claiming to be Our Srila Prabhupadas and ISKCONS spiritual successor?No i am not!
But he ....Narayanna maharaja is shamefully attacking our Srila Prabhupada ,his personal spiritual prestige ,his very spiritual authenticity as an initiating spiritual master and infact seems intent on stealing his legacy ...the Iskcon movement!
So please get..... his pile of Dung out of here....kula-pavanna !
Was it Narayanna maharaja who came on the Jaladuta ,risking life and limb to give us his Krishna-conciousness?!No it was not!
Was it Narayanna maharaja who chanted in Tompskins square and accepted kirtannada ,gargamuni,mukunda,janaki and others .....as his first disciples?No it was not!
So get your offensive siksa guru and his huge pile of Dung and take your rasika ,uttamasahajaism like mentality..... with you !We are loyal to A C BHAKTIVEDANTA SWAMI Prabhupada ,,,,not some spiritual opportunist...kula-pavanna!

Actually NM is extremely tactful when it comes to Vaishnava etiquette. He goes out of his way not to disturb the faith of SP disciples in their guru. Minimizing him does no good to anyone.

In many ways NM is very much Srila Prabhupadas and ISKCONS spiritual successor. Our sampradaya definitely shines through him, just like it shined through Sridhara maharaja. It is obvious to all observers, except a small group of fanatical disciples of SP. The spiritual contributions of NM to Gaudiya Vaishnavism in the West may not equal those of SP but they are important and are here to stay.

Will they do anything at all about getting together with NM? His disciples are still in Iskcon, even a few Iskcon gurus. Will GBCisis stop the pissing contest this year? It is however true what he said... haha

Sorry how can Narayanna maharaja be iskcons and our Srila Prabhupada successor....when he preachs ...i am this gopi !And quickly introduce new off the street people to Rasika mellows....like Narayanna maharaja and his followers do!
Which appear very similar in nature to the Sahajaism which plagues Radha kund Babajis according to Srila Prabhupada.
Iskcon would never allowed such an important project as a proposed Radha -krishna Temple in Auckland ....to fail financially and be embarrassingly sold at a mortgagee sale .
So why do Narayanna maharaja not help if he is the empowered successor!
Why would he encourage offensive behaviour in the form of Spiritual Reinitiation of devotees whose guru has not fallen ? Please explain Kula-pavanna !.....or is it that he is just a spiritual opportunist who is after an iskcon archarya position as it obviously seems!

Well TKS wrote that he should be siksa guru for all Iskcon in 1994 Iskcon journal. It must be true... at least for you. Am I right or am I right?

First of all show me the Quote narot....Then i will be pleased to answer!....however did Srila Prabhupada ask for Narayanna maharaja like he did especially for Tamala-krishna goswami maharaja?the simple answer is no!
My spiritual master knew that i alone could not do this great work.Therefore ,he has kindly sent you all to help me in this task.I accept you therefore as a representative of my guru-maharaja,playing as my affectionate disciples.[Srila Prabhupada,letter to los angeles devotees]......
Prabhupada put alot of stock in Tamala krishna goswami,he said.If a situation arose that required expert management skills or just good,clear thinking--whereever we happened to be,anywhere in the world--Prabhupada would say get Tamala!.....Pradumya dasa [or Pundititji as srila Prabhupada called him],who traveled with srila PRABHUPADA during a portion of the 1970s....
So since we have just celebrated his disappearance day ,we[his loyal disciples and freinds] humbly follow in his sublime footsteps .....The foremost disciple of srila Prabhupada .... his grace Tamala -krishna goswami ki jaya!

However he do not have the disease of wanting to disobey the instructions of his Spiritual master like those in the Gaudiya matha!....He was enthusiastic to serve the GBC.While members of the Gaudiya Matha became useless as a result of disobeying the orders of Srila Bhaktisiddanta saraswati thakura.Hence all the gaudiya Matha leaders were incredibly ....unable to understand Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhus mood until........
Srila Prabhupadas godbrother B R Sridhar swami came in Prabhupadas car from his Matha in Navadvipa.He stayed for most of the afternoon.He and Prabhupada took Prasadam together on the veranda.Srila Prabhupada had him stay in the room next to his own,and after a light rest,they talked for most of the afternoon.
During their conversations they exchanged reports on each others preaching activities.Srila Prabhupada told me afterward that Sridhar swami regarded him as the real Archarya.Sridhara swami told him that Lord Chaitanya had given his prediction that the chanting of the holy name would go to every village,but he and his godbrothers had not taken this literally.Now by Srila Prabhupadas efforts he said he could understand its real meaning...PAGE 459,march 15,1976 transcendental diary.
Which graphically highlights the huge gulf of difference between the gaudiya matha and iskcon!
Fortunetly it also shows the wonderful non-envious nature of Srila Prabhupadas wonderful godbrother B R Shridar swami.

Without saying it they (Iskcon the institution) are declaring there are no more acharyas (self effulgent self realized souls) only the rubber stamped variety will be acknowledged, and as we know these are given their rubber stamp of approval by the GBC (Same as the Papal conclave within the Vatican) They are turning Srila Prabhupada into a Christ like figure which means no self effulgent acharya can come after him (he was the last and only real one of the Yuga), therefore anyone who wants Srila Prabupadas mercy must surrender to your local corrupt Iskcon official (officially corrupt ones are even more glorious and usually have higher positions)

Rather than appointing a single Pope (like TKS tried to do...himself) they appoint many little Popes and not a single one of these is even on the scholarly level of a Bhaktivedanta, and now they are about to build what looks like Vatican city in the middle of Mayapur. Yes Srila Prabhupada wanted a Vedic Planetarium and a big temple but this beggars belief.

NM presents a real problem for Iskcon, because he is self effulgent. Not all but many devotees will go to him, why wouldnt you? There is nothing in Iskcon that even comes close to his standard, 54 years as Sanyasi (more than the age of most Iskcon Sanyasis), knowledge of shastra, Bhaktivedanta in his own right (His list of books that he has translated and written are longer than most I have ever seen) and on top of all that he can take a shisya (disciple) all the way. He has full knowledge of Vaidhi Bhakti and Raganuga Bhakti which makes up the full picture as Rupa Goswami has eruditely transcribed and all of the acharyas in our disciplic succession fully accept including Srila Prabhupada who also covered these topics in his Nectar or Devotion and the C.C.s

Srila Prabhupada only had 11 shorts years to establish the foundations of what will last 10,000 years. What he didnt need was devotees going into Raganuga, he needed emergency relief for the immeasurable souls that were suffering and without any knowledge of Krishna. Hare Krishna is now a household word around the world thanks to Srila Prabhupada. That time has passed some devotees are reaching 60 and 70 years plus and they and all of us are entitled to practice Sadhana Bhakti in its complete entirety as Srila Prabhupada has written about.

Dont be fooled by idiots that try and rubbish this side of the teachings by calling it the "Gopi Bhava" club, that alone demonstrates they have sub-zero knowledge of the topic. Vaidhi Bhakti and Ragunaga Bhakti are not mutually exclusive they compliment each other. Vaidhi Bhakti has been well known for 5000 years, but the Raganuga Bhakti is what Chaitanya Mahaprabhu came to distribute (thats the internal reason discussed in Srila Prabhpadas C.C) and he gave it to all and sundry its the key to the deep transcendental abode of Radha and Krishna and the only qualification you need is to want it.

if he was enthusiastic to serve the GBC he would be coming to the meetings for all of his last years. he was enthusiastic to not to come, and only showed up when the pressure became too high and they were considering striking him off. at least he had an opportunity for a few kirtans after years of isolation.

.Srila Prabhupada said that this was when he understood how his guru maharaja could be pleased.He explained that the fight for control of the mathas that occurred immediately after Srila Bhaktisiddantad disappearance was the first aparadha.It was guror avajna,disobeying the orders of the spiritual master.Since then many more offenses have been committed.
He remarked his godbrothers are now useless,because instead of combining together to preach vigorously and defeat Tirtha maharajas cunning,they were all simply scheming how to become next Archarya.Thus they could not unite successfully.They all had the same disease that infected Tirtha maharaja.......seems like a recurring theme.Now Narayanna maharaja is intent on being the next Iskcon Archarya.Srila Bhaktisiddanta never said that one man would be the next archarya..What Bhaktisiddanta Saraswati did order was that a twelve -man GBC[GOVERNING BODY COMMISSION ].... be formed in his absence.But they ignored him.
Prabhupadas comments were candid and revealing.It is apparent that among his godbrothers,our srila Prabhupada stands out as the one who truly desired to please his guru maharaja by vigorously spreading Lord chaitanyas movement all over the world.As srila Prabhupada himself often said ....phalena pariciyate,the value of something is judged by the fruit it produces.....february 12th ,1976...page 343 A Transcendental dairy.....sri dhama mayapura.Wonderful revealing quote as to how the gaudiya Matha became useless and offensive ....and finally even relevant to the present day....... [gaudiya matha guru] narayanna maharaja is indeed infected by the same spiritual disease.Subtle sex life ....PROFIT ADORATION AND DISTINCTION.....wanting Position falls within this catagory of subtle sex life!
notice how we ...ISKCON are the spiritual organisation who has forfilled the desire of Bhaktisiddanta saraswati himself ....formed a GBC!....ps If Narayanna maharaja is ISKCONS next successor ....where does Srila PRABHUPADA mention younger devotees...fresh of the street , should be schooled in the gopi siddhanta or raganuga bhakti......which is presently being preached by narayanna maharaja and followers?

SGD you still cannot get it through your thick head, Jadurani is still her name she has not been re-initiated, Shyamarani is a pet name that NM uses.

Stop throwing up false issues which are already proven to be wrong, and then arguing against them. Jadurani has already explain in her own words she was never re-initiated and she agrees that would be offensive if it happened but as she explain it did not happen.

>>ps If Narayanna maharaja is ISKCONS next successor ....where does Srila PRABHUPADA mention younger devotees...fresh of the street , should be schooled in the gopi siddhanta or raganuga bhakti......which is presently being preached by narayanna maharaja and followers?

Where is your proof of this SGD?

Well prabhu personally i went with my family to meet a Senior leader of Narayanna maharaja ,which turned out to be an old friend! drystadumya maharaja,however he had been re-initiated by Narayanna maharaja so i was shocked. When i met him personally again after twenty odd years,we got on extremely well.He had been involved in the Sweet waters festival here in New Zealand,and had also been involved in Chinese Preaching previously with Tamala -krishna goswami.We had served together across Australia together.....we were simply were thrilled to see each other again
\!This meeting was at kati kati a small town near Tauranga,New Zealand.....The Narayanna maharaja team consisting of Balarama das formerly bhakta barry .....[the original thirty year bhakta] had been to ask me for financial asistance,i welcomed the opportunity to help since my old friends were involved especially Sadhu das and Sankarshan dasi.Maharaja suggested i help two young men ,situated in wellington....Who were uninitiated but very sincere.Which i agreed to do even though very cautious...i gave stock for them to sell.Unfortunately they simply cheated me leaving me out of pocket to the value of $800.00.
However what disturbed me more,.... was that these uninitiated men were preaching almost on an imagined raganuga platform...it seemed very strange! but they were also failing to properly understand what they were infact saying ,they preached to me that was the real position!.........
.HERE I WAS BEING PREACHED TO BY BHAKTAS BOZO AND BOB ABOUT KRISHNA AND THE GOPIS.
Of course they were just 4 month and 9 month devotees,respectively.So not a big thing....i thought ,however it got worse!....Then i met Balarama das who i had known for many years,and he then started attacking his previous iskcon diksa guru,Mahavishnu swami...Whom he reffered to as the best of a bad bunch!......What a fantastic way to blaspheme your own diksa guru...i thought!.
Yes ,the self same guru ,who just passed away two weeks ago in the holi-dharma!
I quickly pushed my family towards our car as i smiled trying to get out of their!
Maharaja grabbed me ...trying to encourage me to stay.He was truly wonderful and i really was pleased to try and serve him and his mission!However it was very obvious that their preaching style was very very elevated.....akin to raganuga bhakti from everyone!Sorry but i am just aniskcon solider.....we fail to being impressed by such nonsense!I was unable to make head or tail of it!
Since this style even in classes was very very unusual,it was not for me!.But after thirty odd years of service in iskcon ,without being offensive, i would suggest it verges on sahajaism,at least their preaching style did!However hopefully Narayanna maharaja can make a better fist of it.
Maybe it is better preached now....i honestly hope so but then it was very scary spiritually!...yours sincerly