Pariprashnena — Q&A Archive

what is the URL?

Puranjana he lives in Northern California, this is one of his myspace pages http://www.myspace.com/trancelooper, he makes weird sort of gothic art. This may be a second profile here http://www.myspace.com/52199499 most of articles written on the net that draw people away from Krishna consciousness are written by him.

On myspace once a curious person who had never visited a temple asked why devotees shaved their heads in the Hare Krishna Group Forum. The response that was given to this simple question was, because they poisoned Srila Prabhupada and some other nonsense.

Katha Up. 1.3.14 says that the sharp edge of a razor is difficult to pass over; thus the wise say the spiritual path is hard.
Internet is like that - it can help to enhance ones preaching or to speed up ones degradation. The difference is in the heart.

As far as I can see, Puranjanas writings generally revolve around the themes of: "Why were people who were known to be peadophiles, homosexuals, gun runners, drug addicts, or plain businessmen etc etc knowingly retained as gurus with the support of the GBC? And why are some of those people who knowlingly approved and promoted such an arrangement and even worshipped known peadophiles, homosexuals, gun runners, drug addicts or businessmen etc etc, hold high positions of authority and worship in ISKCON today?"

I dont think asking such questions is dangerous or degrading. I think it is dangerous to not ask these questions. Even Pariprashnena has a couple of related threads on the same subject.

Dina,
karma for those decisions goes to the GBC. If I dont want to acquire part of it, I dont get involved. Therere enough negative examples to serve as a warning.
Im not appointed as an overseer of the GBC or other authorities. Objections to their actions should be voiced in a proper way. If they dont change, then I should pray for the change. After all, people may change, past not. Everything is controlled by Krsna. If I cant tolerate the situation, I should focus on my own bhajan and preaching and not support those who in my opinion continue in the wrong direction. Thats what Srila Prabhupada did. Instead of going around criticizing he started his own group. That was the proper answer and some of his own disciples similarly started their own groups without feeling a need to criticize the GBC.

Just like Lord Ramacandra. When He came, He accepted only one wife, accepted only one wife. And even when that wife was banished... You know that. Sita. Sita. He (She) was kidnapped by Ravana, and Lord Rama fought with him, killed the whole family and installed his brother in that kingdom and rescued Sita and brought home. So He was living with Sita. But some of the sudras, they criticized, "Oh, just see Ramacandra. He is king. He is very powerful. He is living with His kidnapped wife." (lecture, CC Madhya 20.313-317, New York, December 21, 1966)

The reason is that public criticism (even just) doesnt please sadhus (apaizunam, aversion to faultfinding, BG 16.2) since its not an expression of a desire to help but of a frustration that "Im unable to do anything useful like to preach on my own or to start my own preaching group and show a better example." (as per SB 4.8.54 p.) Such people got a great forum in the form of internet. So let them do their stuff, attract others with a similar mentality and reap their karma. Some go even further and try to harm by spreading half-truths, lies and apasiddhantas which doesnt need further comments. Association of both types - sudra-like impotent critics and candala-like wrongdoers - is to be avoided.

Pariprasna relates to pari, higher subjects, not to politics. Therere other websites for that purpose.

Importance of friendship - A friend in need is a friend indeed

pApAn nivArayati yojayati hitAya
guhyAni gUhati guNAn prakatI karoti
Apadgatam ca na jahAti dadAti kAle
sanmitra lakSaNam idam pravadanthi santaH

Good friends are who will help you to overcome the bad qualities in you and inspire you to take the right path. They will keep your secrets but advertise your good qualities. They will not desert you when you'92re in trouble and give of themselves in your time of need '96 such is the nature of good friends say the wise.

other wisdom quotes: http://navankura.wordpress.com/category/uncategorized/

> The reason is that public criticism (even just) doesnt please sadhus

Justified public criticism is a major theme and teaching tool of sastra, just as we see that Srila Vedavyasa has filled his literature with a copious number of episodes which publicly criticise great figures, and great souls take great delight in studying and recounting these episodes. At the moment I am reading Brahma-vaivarta Purana. Here is a small sample of public criticism episodes which are all in the form of conversations initiated by Srimati Radharani in discussions with Shri Krishna:
Ch 33: Curbing the pride of Brahma
Ch 46: Curbing the pride of Hara
Ch 47: Curbing the pride of Indra
Ch 48: Curbing the pride of the Sun
Ch 49: Curbing the pride of the Fire
Ch 50: Curbing the pride of the Durvasa
Ch 51: Curbing the pride of the Dhanvantari
Ch 56: Curbing the pride of Maha-vishnu

> If I cant tolerate the situation, I should focus on my own bhajan and preaching and not support those who in my opinion continue in the wrong direction.

Sure, one option is to go off and start your own program. Another option is to take a stand against the wrong direction. Nothing wrong with that.

> Thats what Srila Prabhupada did. Instead of going around criticizing he started his own group.

Misrepresentation. Srila Prabhupadas ongoing justified criticisms of his godbrothers before and after he started his own group are well documented.

> Everything is controlled by Krsna.

Although this is a common sentiment expressed by devotees, I really dont think it is born from an actual, realised devotional faith and dependence on Krsna. I think it is born more from avoidance, cowardice or impotency to act and is then psychologically justified as devotion, much like Arjuna psychologically justified his cowardice as the morally correct position. Anyway Vedaji, the thing about this common response is that it avoids the questions that sites like pada seem to be asking and it is this avoidance that will keep them with ammunition for years to come.

> (as per SB 4.8.54 p.)

So you dont consider efforts to improve the integrity and reputation of the institution, (which includes revealing dysfunctions and inconsistencies) as preaching?

If mahajanas express their views, who can object?

> Srila Prabhupadas ongoing justified criticisms of his godbrothers before and after he started his own group are well documented.

SP said: "I can criticize my Godbrothers but you cant." That means superiors in general.

Christians pray for the erring ones. This is a great lesson to learn from them.

That everything is controlled by Krsna is not a sentiment but a sastric fact stated in many places: Not a blade of grass moves without His will.

> I think it is born more from avoidance, cowardice or impotency to act and is then psychologically justified as devotion

God, give us grace to accept with serenity
the things that cannot be changed,
Courage to change the things
which should be changed,
and the Wisdom to distinguish
the one from the other."
(Reinhold Niebuhr, The Serenity Prayer, 1934)

Its also attributed to St. Francis of Assisi. Therere two options - to accept or to change. Criticism isnt mentioned.

> the thing about this common response is that it avoids the questions that sites like pada seem to be asking and it is this avoidance that will keep them with ammunition for years to come.

I didnt avoid them. I reply above that reactions go to the GBC.

> So you dont consider efforts to improve the integrity and reputation of the institution, (which includes revealing dysfunctions and inconsistencies) as preaching?

I said theres a process how to voice objections while avoiding public criticism and what to do next if it doesnt work.

[quote][cite] deena:[/cite]I dont think asking such questions is dangerous or degrading. I think it is dangerous to not ask these questions.[/quote]

I think the situation is similar to a trend in journalism: to ask people in the street about their opinions on some hot topic, and then run those short interviews on the news. What do these people know, and what can they possibly say in those ten seconds or so? Are they authorities on those topics? Yet their contributions are being published as part of the news, people watch that, and then this multitude and relativism, or one-sidedness (depending on the editor) become the news as well. Not what some expert or authority says.[br]

[br]I am skeptical about such an approach. I think most people do not have the education or the realization to wholesomely deal with such topics - so why delve into them into great detail? It only creates confusion and hurt. If they would have the education and realization, they wouldnt be confused and hurt - but the fact is many are.[br]

[br]I think difficult topics are to be placed before able people, experts and authorities. If such people are not around, we have to give up thinking about the topic and place it in Gods hands.[br]

> I think most people do not have the education or the realization to wholesomely deal with such topics - so why delve into them into great detail?

So become educated. Theres no need to remain ignorant.

[quote][cite] deena:[/cite]So become educated. Theres no need to remain ignorant.[/quote]

This sounds a bit glib ... "Education" here means at least years of intense sastric study under able guidance. It is simply not possible that everyone (who experiences those contentious topics as confusing and harmful) could do that. Those who are able to educate themselves have undoubtedly done so or are in the process of it. But many people do not have the time or the means to do so. There needs to be a simpler solution.[br]

[br]What you seem to be suggesting is "If you have a problem - that is your problem to deal with, and yours alone."

The simple point I am trying to convey is: the position that "pada is offensive therefore the content is invalid or untrue" is the classic ad hominem argument, i.e. tried and convicted without one iota of analysis of the content. Dont get me wrong, Im not here to defend pada, but I do object to poor reasoning.

VEDA - I said theres a process how to voice objections while avoiding public criticism and what to do next if it doesnt
work.

May i ask what the process is, prabhu and if it doesnt work what does one do next ?

GBC Res. 1981:

ISKCON Law. (amendment)
50. If a devotee has any grievances regarding the management of a temple, his complaints should be properly aimed to the local temple president, regional secretary and / or the local GBC representative. The matter should not be acted on or brought before the devotees in general. [VI.12-S-pres.76,A-81]

GBC Res. 1983 is largely devoted to this.

See also ISKCON Laws 8.4.* and ISKCON Management Guidelines (Grievances: GBC - Guideline #610, iskcon grievance form - (form 600.1).

> if it doesnt work what does one do next ?

See my text above.

> the position that "pada is offensive therefore the content is invalid or untrue" is the classic ad hominem argument

Sorry, Dina, this is not the topic here at all. We discuss if one should criticize publicly, regardles of if the allegation is right or not (that remains to be investigated). See #6 below.

ISKCON Lawbook:

8.4.1.3 Reasons for Censuring
An ISKCON Devotee may be censured for any of the following transgressions:
8.4.1.3.1 Misconduct and Indiscipline
1. Willful violation of GBC resolutions.
2. Vilification of ISKCON or the GBC Body or other ISKCON Authority
3. Misconduct in temple or spiritual community (physical assault except in self-defense, inappropriate dealings with opposite sex, abusive behavior to other devotees, and so on).
4. Habitually or knowingly making false charges and accusations or other consistent vaisnava-aparadhas.
5. Seriously interfering with the guru and disciple relationship with another devotee.
6. Duplicitous or untruthful dealings (lying to spiritual authorities, and other serious prevarication).
Acting irresponsibly in publicly expressing grievances rather than taking recourse to the prescribed process for settling grievances as per ISKCON Law.
Conscious and serious philosophical deviation from Srila Prabhupada'92s teachings (1999)

[quote][cite] deena:[/cite]As far as I can see, Puranjanas writings generally revolve around the themes of: "Why were people who were known to be peadophiles, homosexuals, gun runners, drug addicts, or plain businessmen etc etc knowingly retained as gurus with the support of the GBC? And why are some of those people who knowlingly approved and promoted such an arrangement and even worshipped known peadophiles, homosexuals, gun runners, drug addicts or businessmen etc etc, hold high positions of authority and worship in ISKCON today?"

I dont think asking such questions is dangerous or degrading. I think it is dangerous to not ask these questions. Even Pariprashnena has a couple of related threads on the same subject.[/quote]

If that was all this site is doing, it would not have been too bad. Unfortunately a lot of information on that site is simply untrue and the overall tone of the presentation is apalling.

I am all for holding people responsible for their actions, but it needs to be done in a proper fashion. PADA promotes a lynch mob mentality, not justice.

VEDA - ISKCON Law. (amendment)
50. If a devotee has any grievances regarding the management of a temple, his complaints should be properly aimed to the local temple president, regional secretary and / or the local GBC representative. The matter should not be acted on or brought before the devotees in general. [VI.12-S-pres.76,A-81].

Understood.

1. What about non-devotees / members of public are they allowed to complaint in regards to conduct of devotees -
by action or by words used. IF yes, do they also have to go through the same process mentioned above.

2. Is the Iskcon Law book and Iskcon Management Guidelines available online. Also is there any website with
complete information on current iskcons hierarchy together with names / e-mail addresses .

Having just read for the first time Pada home page ,sorry second time since i have just been shocked to my very core.....is this what crows search through garbage for. or is this the honey saintly persons subsist upon?.......This is sadly for those whom are demoniac.......truly demoniac in my opinion!When such malicious diatribe was first brought to my attention many years ago,it was taken through the indian legal system.!
If i remember it properly .... the police were infact envolved at the time .It was never taken any further because nothing was infact proven,it was infact unsupported and dismissed out right . SRILA PRABHUPADA himself details how we should perceive such nefarious and unsubstantiated piosonous slander and inept attacks on iskcon!.....please read it and judge for yourself wether we are actually swans or crows by how we deal with this type of polluting garbhage!

Mr Triveri told him about a recent negative incident he had experienced with one swami. The swami had publicly condemned ISKCON and Srila Prabhupadas preaching activities. The swami had read aloud to the public on Janmastami day an adverse newspaper article concerning the devotees in Japan. He declared that ISKCON was not a bona fide sampradaya and should be avoided. Prabhuapda strongly defended his ISKCONs world-wide efforts to spread Krsna consciousness. He advised Mr. Triveri how to deal with such criticism, "Dosam icchanti pamarah. Maksika bhramara icchanti...Maksika, these ordinary flies, they find out where is sore, and the bhramara[bee], he finds out where is honey. Similarly, dosam icchanti pamarah. And the Bhaktivedanta Swami is doing preaching all over the world. That has not come to his eyes. He has come to the Japanese incident." Mr. Triveri said that he had told the man that in a big organization there might be some such incidents. But Prabhupada said, "No. Why did you not say, You are such a pamara[low minded or sinful] that this thing has come to your notice and not other thing? Just try to understand what is the mentality of these rascals that The good things do not come to your notice. If something is bad, Oh here is .... You see. Pamara dosam icchanti gunam icchanti panditah. Saj-jana gunamicchanti dosam icchanti pamarah. That means they are not even a Vaisnava. You see? Vaisnava means paramo nirmatsarana. Even one has got some fault; a Vaisnava does not see that. He takes the good qualities. But they are not even Vaisnava. The mission of Caitanya Mahaprabhu is being preached all over the world-that does not come to their attention, Some Japanese newspaper has written something--it has come immediately. Hes lowest of the mankind. You can say that Why this thing has come prominent to your eyes and not the other thing?"

So according to our param guru-iskcon founder archarya srila Prabhupada if you are attracted to this you are also a resident of hell!...a naraki!This quote came from hari sauris prabhus dairy.Such persons are simply flies looking for stool to subsist upon!.