Pariprashnena — Q&A Archive

I think even a better example of caste system in Iskcon are sannyasis.

What about sannyasins who are not Prabhupada disciples? If they get less respect than ex-sannyasins, because those were diksas of Prabhupada, what you say may not work.

We[iskcon devotees] are meant to an empowered army of preachers not a group of hippies only concerned with our own likes and dislikes!Obviously we are unique from other gaudiya lines because we are intent on seeing the intrinsic value the seniority devotee has...... which is revealed when he instructs those lesser than himself on how to please guru and krishna!Makes freinds with those who are his equals and serves those superior than himself .Such Madhyama adhikara devotees are indeed meant to be worshiped! Rank and qualification is indeed important for a progressive society.....Such persons are siksa gurus for all devotees.

The empowered army of hippies" does have a system of making one hippie superior to another. It only works if you only expect to have those who respect this system to become part of it. I have no respect for hippies, thus they are not my siksa gurus. You do, it seems. But the problem is that the cast system of some old hippies being siksa gurus is not supported by sastra, sadhus and Prabhupada. And that is something you have to agree, because there is no place in sastra suggesting that an old hippie is a siksa guru, because he is old.

My spiritual master knew that i alone could not do this great work.Therefore ,he has kindly sent you all to help me in this task.I accept you therefore as a representative of my guru-maharaja,playing as my affectionate disciples.[Srila Prabhupada,letter to los angeles devotees]......
Prabhupada put alot of stock in Tamala krishna goswami,he said.If a situation arose that required expert management skills or just good,clear thinking--whereever we happened to be,anywhere in the world--Prabhupada would say get Tamala!.....Pradumya dasa [or Pundititji as srila Prabhupada called him],who traveled with srila PRABHUPADA during a portion of the 1970s.....
So since we have just celebrated his[Tamala krishna goswamis ] disappearance day ,we[his loyal disciples and freinds] humbly follow in his sublime footsteps .....The foremost disciple of srila Prabhupada .... his grace Tamala -krishna goswami ki jaya!
I am sorry for you borokrishna that you are bereft of srila Prabhupadas intimate servants mercy. ....hopefully krishna will bless you when you serve his sincere iskcon servants...hare krishna!
Also please try and look for the good within others,blaspheming srila Prabhupadas empowered servants usually is the sad behaviour of those situated in the mode of ignorance possesing a hellish mentality .....sahajas, ritvik-babajis and plain demons which while i know you are not one of these prabhu,just chant and your disturbed conciousness with infact disappear from your as you develop sincerity!

It is true that as with any cast system -- it only works because there are those who support it. The assumption that I am bereft of the mercy of devotees, because I do not support a cast system one way or another is a false statement.

Forgive him, for he believes that the customs of his tribe are the laws of nature.
- George Bernard Shaw

Just for the record -- its CASTE system and not CAST system.

Thanks portnoy. I was talking about CAST (as in something you cast over a dead body). So do you think that just because one is initiated by Srila Prabhupada, one is superior and that is cast in stone?

Most definitely! I dont mean to cast aspersions but yes, when Srila Prabhupada cast his net a few thousand fortunate fish were caught and as for all the rest of the fish in the sea --- good luck. Youll just have to wait for the next bona fide fisherman to come along. In the meantime be good and dont get cast down to the lower species of life. At least hang around the human form while youre waiting for the next messiah. In the meantime, however, youll just have to wander the material worlds like castaways with no shelter and no home. Thus ends my ridiculous broadcast to all the castes out there from brahmana to sudra and even those who are lower than sudra (kalau sudra sambhavat).

Now can we get someone from central casting to perform this skit?

I will wait for the next messiah that casts no shadow, for he is the one situated in the light for there is no darkness surrounding him.

O.o

All glories to Srila Prabhupada!

Q: Being a direct Prabhupada disciple - caste system?

A: Every disciple and follower of Srila Prabhupada has the right and duty to serve and realise the eternal continuous presence of Sri Guru Jagat Guru His Divine Grace AC Bhaktivedanta Swami Srila Prabhupada and encourage others to do the same. Unfortuntely most take everything externally and miss the connection. This misleads others into thinking they have missed out.

Bhagavad Gita As It Is Chapter 18, Verse 57.
In all activities just depend upon Me and work always under My protection. In such devotional service, be fully conscious of Me.

Chapter 18, Verse 58.
If you become conscious of Me, you will pass over all the obstacles of conditional life by My grace. If, however, you do not work in such consciousness but act through false ego, not hearing Me, you will be lost.

Hare Krishna

Gaurahari. All glory to Guru and Gauranga. With all the uncertainty going on regarding the rtvik/Iskcon debates etc i put a question out there for all to think about. If a devotee is wanting initiation then shouldnt the inspiring devotee be able to choose for him/herself whether one wants initiation under the current Iskcon guru system or whether him/her wants Diksa initiation under the Rtvik guru acarya system that Srila Prabhupada indeed instructed for when he was no longer physically present. For an Iskcon guru to deny would only show how much he is contaminated by the false ego. ie: I want disciples, they are my disciples, etc. It is obvious that everyone agrees that there was indeed a rtvik system the debate is whether it should be continued
when Prabhupada was no longer physically present. If we reference SPs final will and instructions there should be no clarity needed. My personal opinion is we should have a choice since it is obvious that the Iskcon leaders/gurus/gbc are not going to be making any changes soon. As we are all striving to go back to godhead then we should be able to choose either copper silver or gold. Who would want copper when gold is available. This may be a way where we can all show our appreciation and gratitude and love to Srila prabhupada by cooperating. This was His simple request. Thank-you Pancali

> I want disciples, they are my disciples

Read Assuming Responsibility of Being Guru by BSST.

Just today, the question in Sankarshan Das Adhikaris newsletter was on how to choose a guru.
This was his answer:

"Guru means that person sent to you by Krishna who is saving you from the cycle of birth and death. So there is no question of choosing a guru. You simply have to see who is that person who is saving you and fully surrender to him accepting his order as your very life and soul."
Sankarshan Das Adhikari

There is no uncertainty concerning ritvik assertions...my guru tamala -krishna goswami signed the exact letter.He was the intimate disciple and servant.There is no ritvik Archarya system within orthodox gaudiya vaisnavaism.....we are not apa-sampradaya.We do not concoct like Narayanna maharajas team,introducing caste brahmana and sahaja-ism,which is what these unfaithful disconnected sampradaya kanisthas are attempting to do!Death to the sampradaya proponents like the ritvik babajis are just certain envious rascals helping to purify the line who are looking for fame and position.

er .. um ... ahem ... excuse me..... Moderator People ... Anybody Listening?

The maniac on board just made a terrorist threat (above). "Death to the sampradaya proponents ....." just doesnt fly on any internet forum -- what to speak of one that is spiritually oriented. Even the Muslim extremists know better than to throw slogans around like that.

Please do something about it and do it quickly. Thank you.

Bhahkta hashama control your mind...if you get rid of the initiating guru,against Srila Prabhupadas intention ....you become like christianity.No more gurus ....no sampradaya...no parampara!How can you hope to appreciate what i am saying when just a bhakta?That is what happens ...death of the sampradaya.....no more gurus ...you need a bhakta program hashama!

You didnt say the parampara dies due to yada yada yada ...... you exclaimed DEATH TO THE SAMPRADAYA PROPONENTS LIKE THE RITVIK BABAJIS .....

Im giving the moderators of this forum 24 hours to do something and if nothing is done Im reporting your post to the proper authorities. You are encouraging homicide. You are a madman. Youre sick! Why is it that religious organizations always attract nuts like you? You get to channel your hatred in the name of spirituality. So much horror goes on in the Name of God because of people like you.

Imho, death-to-the-sampradaya proponents are meant.

SGD >>Death to the sampradaya proponents like the ritvik babajis are just certain envious rascals helping to purify the line who are looking for fame and position.

Lets ignore the fact that this sentence is so poorly formed, and is borderline illiterate, but let us try and examine what SGD is on about:

SGD says "Death to the sampradaya proponents like the ritvik babjis" sampradaya propents means notable devotee or acharya in our sampradaya, God realized devotees do not wish death on anybody, and Gaudiya Vaisnavas are always full of compassion for the fallen conditioned soul, So I guess we can deduce by this that SDG is neither God Realized (surprise surprise) and he is certainly not a Gaudiya Vaisnava.

The term "ritvik babajis" is also incorrect, The Ritvik group are a breakaway group, some are outside of Iskcon and some are still inside of Iskcon and they want to put Srila Prabupada back in the centre, however they also want to make every new devotee that joins Iskcon a direct dikshya disciple of Srila Prabhupada. Babajis of which we have many in our Sampradaya including all of the six Goswamis were all white vesh wearing babajis and they were some of the main disciples of Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu who gave us so much of the Gaudiya Vaisnava writings that we have today. So a Ritvik is completely different to a Babji. There are no Ritvik Babajis that I know about and even if there were why would anyone be wishing death to them?

Now lets look at the rest of the statement ["are just certain envious rascals helping to purify the line who are looking for fame and position] So how does an envious rascal help to purify the line?

Quote me if I am wrong in my interpretation of what this means but let me have a go:

Death to the sampradaya proponents (actual proponents..devotees/acharyas in our disciplic line) Ritvik Babajis (that dont exist) are just envious rascals helping to purify the line (how does an envious rascal help to purify anything?) who are looking for "Fame and Position" (One who takes on the white vesh babaji cloth has given up fame and position? oh hang on I am confused are we talking about Babajis or Ritviks? LMHO)

Anyone here should post part of this thread to the Iskcon Authorities in New Zealand, I am sure they would be very interested to learn that one of their illiterate members is asking for the death of other Vaisnavas. The email address for Iskcon New Zealand is: info@harekrishna.org.nz

The admin of this forum should also ban someone who speaks like this, how far does one have to go before they are making a complete mockery of everything that Srila Prabhupada worked so hard to establish, the comments made by SDG are deplorable and he should be banned and a report should be sent to his Iskcon zone management.

What a wonderfully emotive and succinct appraisal.....death to the sampradaya;this is obviously what the many inimical elements are striving for however thats too honest,so lets just refer to them as iskcons fringies who hope to attack those who are in management.But since they are outside lets delve deeper in the mode of ignorance and just change the basic teachings of gaudiya vaisnavaism,Is this more palatable and sensible?And we can then concoct an anti iskcon society called the ritvik reform movement just to be sure!Sounds awfully more polished and less offensive ;what do you think mung and manasi seva prabhu?

Its so plainly obvious yamala_arjuna_das that you are SGD, your really bad English reveals it LMHO!

Why dont you boys just grow up!You both need to get out and simply preach....having read your recent postings bhakta hashama are you not beyound your depth?How can a new person possibly be anything but quiet ,when such advanced topics are being discussed by senior devotees.If you commit offense you will subsequently just become unqualified for the progressive path of devotion,.....it is not for the fool hardy ,foolish or obviously immature!Why dont you at least post the words of your guru,then you can be relatively protected....jaya radhe!

lal_lasamayi_devi = SGD (Exactly the same poor punctuation and style of English, new to the forum, and attacking the same people and issues that SGD attacked LMHO!)

SGD you need to grow up, you are now using a females tag, I just hope youre not wearing a Sari LMHO!

lal_lasamayi_devi (who is really sri_govinda_das) ... you said I am BEYOUND my depth. I have never been BEYOUND anything. I dont even know what a YOUND is so how could I be one? Have you ever seen a YOUND? Do they have YOUNDS where you live? Maybe you could post a photo of a YOUND and then I could tell you if I have ever been around a YOUND? Oh -- by the way -- I would rather you not call me Bhakta Hashama. I am not in your bhakta program or any other bhakta program. Im a student of the teachings of His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada. I came to this website to interact with intelligent, mature and learned people who are also students of Srila Prabhupadas teachings. Instead I found a forum that has come to a standstill on account of you. You have ruined this whole Pariprashnena experience for me. Thanks a lot, pal. Ive given up trying to engage in any sort of dialogue with anybody due to all the static interference coming from you. At this point the only reason I tune in is for the entertainment. Its turned into a soap opera (what will the nut say next?) You obviously found a way around being banned so I dont know if this will ever end. Ive just about given up on this website. Unfortunately Sampradaya Sun and Dandavats are not designed as a forum like this where conversations can go on between two or among more than two people. Its really too bad because this place has so much potential.

I have been krishnas gopi since i was brought into the harekrishna movement prabhu....at two years of age,would you like to meet my father?However i still would suggest that you boys simply grow up and stick to offering substantial verifiable quotes,otherwise what is your status?Or is it merely a lack of genuine devotional spirit and culture?

At last real people with real personal opinions,likes and dislikes......lookes like a lot of heated tamasic induced responses.Potential is probably the worst insult to a sportsman ,maybe a website can develop better!Chanakya pandit...comments . Even from poison extract nectar, wash and take back gold if it has fallen in filth, receive the
highest knowledge (Krishna consciousness) from a low born person; so also a girl possessing
virtuous qualities (stri-ratna) even if she be born in a disreputable family

>>Potential is probably the worst insult to a sportsman ,maybe a website can develop better!

SGD, I am just wondering what this has to do with the price of daisies? LMHO!

I thought we ...in iskcon were the only ones to ban someone who we disagree with personally.Usually if we do not settle it within the temple,we settle it outside as men do,the old fashioned bash them into realisation process".However such a straight forward seema a long way off around here,,,,,within these partime personal veiws and some spiteful , less than earth shattering preaching realisations from bhakta bananna being the highlight of your day possibly !

Opps. Sri Govinda was banned...

Hare Krishna,
All glory to His Divine Grace Srila Prabhupada.

It still amazes me that when you put forward a simple question how many devotees can automatically go into a defensive mode and begin to blasheme devotees who are only only trying to search for the ultimate truth. In response to Sri Govinda das we should not let such a person disturb our minds. Reading his previous responses and many other things that he writes about only shows us how much Maya-devi has him in her grasp. We should simply pray to Srila Prabhupada that Sri Govinda das stops committing such offenses for the well being of his spiritual advancement and fully takes shelter of Srila Prabhupads books. For a devotee to say such a thing also shows us that his intelligence is lacking and he really hasnt understood what Srila Prabhupada has tried to teach us. In regards to him saying no more sampradaya no more parampara simply bewilders me. If we are all given diksa initiation on the behalf of Srila Prabhupada then how can there be no parampara. Nonsense speculative bogus philosophy. I certainly will be posting his response to the new zealand authorities here and it is simply refreshing to see so many devotees chastising this man. He is obviously very disturbed and hopefully this will give him a wake up call. Anyway, it is my personal opinion that not alot of people actually have their facts right when it comes to the Rtvik devotees. It has nothing to do with position/post etc we are only simply trying to put Srila Prabhupada back in the center. I have been having darsan with Sankarshan Das Adhikari via email and have put alot of questions to Him in regards to the Rtvik/iskcon debates and have found Him to be very open minded and humble regarding all my genuine enquries. If anyone would like to see the questions and answers just contact my email address pancali5@hotmail.com and i am happy to forward onto you. I also have many references and quotes recorded and documented in regards to how Srila Prabhupada wanted the initiation process to be conducted after He was no longer physically present. Due to all the politics etc i have simply pulled away from Iskcon here in Christchurch and even the Rtvik devotees here in Christchurch act in ways that are not acceptable. Focusing to much on who is right and wrong rather than focusing on the spiritual well-being of inspiring devotees new or old. My service is simply to bring my children up to become Krsna conscious serve my husband read Prabhupadas books daily chant my rounds and worship my murtis while following the four regulative principles. I only wish to keep everyone informed regarding Srila Prabhupadas final instructions. I speculate here but i do think that every devotee should educate themselves in regards to the Rtvik initiations and then be able to make an informative decision. This is what Srila Prabhupada had taught me. I should be the well-wishing friend to all and not cheat anyone. I would never do this if i was not 100% satisfied that Srila Prabhupada indeed wanted all devotees new and old to be His initiated disciple. Why one would say that it is all about position is beyond me. We only wish that all glory go to His Divine Grace and that every disciple take shelter of the one and only diksa guru Srila Prabhupada. For more information or any enquries i am happy to respond to all genuine questions to the best of my ability. All the knowledge that i have obtained regarding the above is referenced and documented. Not my own speculation.

All glories to all the devotees of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu.

Pancali

Hare Krsna.
All glory to Srila Prabhupada.

This is a reply for Portnoy regarding the comment he made on 20th febuary. You have basically stated that any other devotee that has not been initiated by His Divine Grace has no home or no shelter. Where is this referenced. When did Srila Prabhupada ever say this. NONSENCE PHILOSOPHY. One must be very careful in making such a strong statement without backing it up according to Guru, Sadhu and Sastra. Your comment is simply mis-guiding and offensive.

Pancali

Pancali .....

I joined in this particular thread relatively late and shortly thereafter the whole topic got derailed but out of curiosity I went back over all the posts including the Portnoy comment that you are referring to. I suppose if you just isolate what he said it would appear that he was being serious; but if you read what was being said in the preceding comments you might take it in a different context and see that he was just being sarcastic. The way I read it was that he was actually spoofing such a narrow minded viewpoint -- (that unless one received initiation from Srila Prabhupada they were hopeless, etc). Think in terms of ..... "satire" ... "parody" ... "lampoon" .... "sarcasm" ...... Anyway -- I havent seen any posts from Portnoy in awhile so it seems he has dropped out of the scene. I doubt, therefore, that hell be answering your question but for what its worth thats my take on what he wrote.

Gaurahari
All glory to Srila Prabhupada.

Hashama...

It is always very interesting to hear how one may interpret what was said by another and thank-you for your opinion. I do see your point in regards to what Portnoy said however, i cant seem to see the sarcasm myself. However in light of what he said i have faith in your words as it is the only way i can make sense of his statement as surely no-one could be that naive to think such a thing. Anyway thank-you for your imput in regards to Sri Govinda das. someone needed to check him. In regards to my queries regarding rtvik ect what is your personal opinion.

Kind regards
Pancali

Direct disciples of Mahaprabhu were a separate class on its own. It is however true that someone can be in illusion for like twenty years or more. completely covered, and because he got some association with Prabhupada (or not) if he is a direct disciple, he is very much respected by everyone. Now I guess that is how we show respect to Shreela Prabhupada himself. But the history teaches us that they do not deserve this respect.

Greetings Pancali! Im sorry it took so long to get back to you on your question concerning ritviks. I have done a lot of reading on the issue -- especially the Final Order by Krishna Kant and rebuttals by Jayadvaita Swami. The amazing thing is that both "sides" quote scripture as well as letters and instructions from Srila Prabhupada. My personal opinion is that Srila Prabhupada is available as Siksa guru for everyone and for always and in all ways; however not for diksa initiations after his departure from this world. As for the question of who is authorized and qualified to give diksha -- thats a whole other controversy and separate issue.

I can understand why the ritvik philosophy is so compelling and popular among those who became disillusioned in ISKCON. For many it seems the practical solution to all of the problems that have arisen from gurus who fell away or fell down from their positions.

Dear Hashama. No worries regarding the late reply. Thankyou for your opinion i very much appreciate it. unfortunatly i am unable to trust anything anyone says anymore. So much politics. Iskcon have valid points as do rtvik, NM follwers even Sridhar Svami Maharaja. My only shelter is now Srila Prabhupada. At least then i know i wont be cheated. The Hare Krishna society has become one big dissapointment since Srila Prabhupada left His body. Everyone wants to be controller. Prabhupada says to many gurus only leads to a failed result. Now i find myself after having darsan with many gurus via the iternet that if i chant my rounds follow the four regs and try hard not to cause any offenses towards any devotees with faith and a submissive attitude that when the real test comes at the end of this life that (Krsna willing) i can only hope to get a better birth. I know that we dont want the repeated birth/death etc however i have to be realistic and there is no way im going back home when i leave this wretched body. Maybe next birth. Anyway i appreciate the feedback and i hope this finds you in good health.

My respectful obeisances
Gaurahari

Pancali

Thank you for your contributions. But how will you resolve this situation, where being a Prabhupadas disciple is based on initiation and not on qualifications?

But isnt one a siksa disciple of Srila Prabhupada as long as he/she accepts him as guide, teacher, guru, instructor, bona fide representative of Vishnu .. Krishna, sampradaya acarya ... via his vani (sound vibration / teachings / books / letters .......) ??? Is that not also "disciple of Srila Prabhupada?" Of course diksa is another thing and those who appeared before His Divine Grace from 1966 to 1977 during his physical presence were fortunate enough to become diksa disciples ..... but isnt Srila Prabhupada available to one and all --- for always and in all ways ... forever and ever ... as siksa guru?

I was born after Srila Prabhupada departed from this world but through his books ... his teachings ... his instructions ... I feel myself to be his siksa disciple. Is that not bona fide? So diksa or siksa ..... the main thing is to obey the orders of the spiritual master, to learn and repeat his teachings and message. I hope Im not mistaken in my thinking and perception in these matters. If I am I would be happy for somebody to inform me and enlighten me.

> but isnt Srila Prabhupada available to one and all --- for always and in all ways ... forever and ever ... as siksa guru?

It is a GBC resolution (1994) that Srila Prabhupada is the siksha guru for every ISKCON member.

Aha! Then its resolved!!

How is that resolved. "Prabhupada Disciple" is a title reserved only to those who received initiation from Prabhupada. even if the have shiksa from someone else. On the other hand those who strictly take shiksa from Shrila Prabhupada, are not called Prabhupada Disciple. There are so many so called "Prabhupada Disciples" who are in the name only, merely vegetarians (at best) and why should they be called Prabhupada Disciples? Double standard!

You are not even allowed to submit an offering to Vyasa Puja book even if it is called Vyasa-puja book offerings for all S.P. disciples?

Those " care takers " who dont allow HDGSP disciples to submit an offering
to Vyasa Puja book must be living in illusion and walking in ignorance.

borokrsnadasa: When I wrote "now it is resolved" I was being sarcastic. Just because the GBC makes a resolution doesnt mean a thing as far as Im concerned. Sorry if my tongue in cheek didnt translate on paper. Im not THAT naive to think their resolution carries any weight nor has any real meaning.

I get it. But they can make a punitive resolution where discrimination on the basis of who one received formal diksa from should not be used against or for that person in his or hers relationships with Srila Prabhupada and any favoritism based on diksa is prohibited. That will help. No more special treatment just because one was initiated during manifested pastimes of His Divine Grace.

I would like to clarify one thing. I am not saying that all rtviks mislead others. Only those who say that there is no need of a guru do so. Whatever has been told in the Vedas and Upanisads about rtviks is only in relation to their sole function in a fire sacrifice, and those fire sacrifices are performed only to fulfill a worldly desire. They have nothing to do with transcendental love and affection for Krsna. [In The True Conception of Sri Guru-tattva it is stated: "After deliberation upon the Mahabharata, Ramayana, and Puranas, it becomes obvious that rtviks have nothing to do with the supreme transcendental goal...Rtau yajtiti rtviki. One who conducts sacrifices according to Vedic mantras is called a rtvik. There is an arrangement of 16 types of rtviks to perform the sacrifices. The yajman employs priests to perform sacrifices for him and he pays them. All these rtviks are virtuous, of high character, learned in the Vedas, and expert in the execution and supervision of sacrifices. After the completion of the yajnas, the yajman (employer) pays the appropriate remuneration to the rtviks and sends them away. The yajman and the rtvik have no mutual eternal relationships."]

Real rtviks know all sastras, and all of them have gurus. A rtvik cannot be a rtvik without accepting a real guru. All rtviks, like Vasistha Rsi, are very high-class devotees. Visvamitra, Gautama, and even Vyasadeva are rtviks, but they have all accepted the guru-parampara. They all believe that there are always self-realized gurus in the world. Nowadays, therefore, those who call themselves rtviks are all cheaters, and we should beware of them.

When we accept a guru, it may be that we have so many anarthas, unwanted thoughts and habits, within us. We may be very ignorant about krsna-tattva, maya-tattva, radha-tattva, bhakti-tattva, and all other tattvas. So many anarthas and aparadhas may be there within us, but there is a process to be free from them.

There are so many gurus: caitya-guru, diksa-guru, siksa-guru, bhajana-guru, and others. Why go to a bogus-rtvik guru? If our siksa-gurus are Caitanya Mahaprabhu, Nityananda prabhu, and Radhika, why do we need to go to these rtviks?

[Typed and edited by Sripad Krsna Bhajana dasa Brahmacari
Proofread by Srimati Premavati devi dasi
HTML by Bhutabhavana dasa]

Those who think, "There is no need to accept a guru as a mediator because we can chant the holy name, we can read books, and we can do arcana and sadhana simply by the rtvik system," are not within the guru-parampara. They deceive others. They are actually cheaters; not bhaktas. Nowhere in the sastra is it written that a rtvik can ever give bhakti. [There are nineteen places in Prabhupadas books where the word rtvik is used, and in all cases the word only refers to a priest officiating or performing a fire sacrifice. Even when the word used is rtvik acarya, it is still defined as a priest performing a fire sacrifice for a secular gain.] This can never be the case. Those who advocate the rtvik system are misleaders, and their followers are misled. Do not go towards the rtvik system.

Nowadays, among others, those who fell down from their pure life and those who left the renounced order due to being very lusty want to be rtvik. They want to gain the same position they had before, and that is why he they are crying, "Rtvik, rtvik, rtvik!" Actually, however, they are all fallen souls and they have nothing to do with bhakti. In none of the sastras has it been said that this rtvik system will give bhakti.

Be careful regarding the bogus rtvik system. These rtviks have no faith in Krsna, no faith in bhakti, and no faith in scriptures like the Vedas, Upanisads, Srimad Bhagavatam, and Caitanya-caritamrta. They also have no faith in the guru-parampara, and that is why they cannot give bhakti. You should give up the idea that the rtviks can help. They can never help you. They have never even helped themselves, so how can they help others?

This word rt has come from the word Rg-Veda. Those who know all Vedas, including the Rg, Sama, Yajur, and Atharva Veda, all the Upanishads, and all the Puranas, are actually rtvik. I think, however, that these modern rtviks dont even know the ABCs of the Vedas. They say that in this world there are no pure devotees, and therefore there are no pure devotees to initiate anyone. This idea is very, very wrong and it against the principles of bhakti. The rtvik proponents saw that the devotees in their society were quarreling amongst themselves, and that there was no suddha-bhakta there. Then, mistaking that those who quarreled were in the guru-parampara, the rtviks became opposed to the actual guru-parampara.

Beware of this rtvik system. Without a self-realized guru you cannot achieve bhakti in thousands of births. This is an established truth. This is siddhanta. You should therefore accept a sad-guru, serve him, and try to follow his instructions. Then you can develop your Krsna consciousness and all of your anarthas will disappear. Otherwise, it will never be possible for pure bhakti to come and touch your heart and senses.

So I am not intimadating you with knowledge, but putting word for word about guru-tattva, which is lacking here. There are little references to guru, sadhu or sastra, so sadly I can see that you are confused. You may even admit it. I leave this as it is. I wish to write more, but fear it wont be read, and that I have committed aparadha by preaching to the faithless? I will be able to judge by the replies, but you cannot find a fault in guru, sadhu & sastra.

a response to the ritvik system

A Response To The Rtvik System

by Srila Bhaktivedanta Narayan Gosvami Maharaja
[A Lecture Given in Polansk, Russia: July 19, 2001] I offer my humble obeisances at the lotus feet of my paramaradhyatama gurupadapadma nitya-lila pravista om visnupada Sri Srimad Bhaktiprajnana Kesava Gosvami Maharaja, and also to my siksa-guru om visnupada Sri Srimad Bhaktivedanta Swami Maharaja.

In our class yesterday we discussed the intrinsic nature of bhakti. We explained there that pure bhakti is the function of the svarupa-sakti (internal potency) of Krsna, and therefore it never manifests in the material senses, words, or mind. There is a process for it to manifest, however. Krsna is an ocean of mercy and His devotee is also an ocean of mercy. Our only hope is to receive their mercy. This is the only ray of hope. Only by the causeless mercy of Krsna and His devotees will the vrtti (characteristic function) of svarupa-sakti enter and become one with the senses of the material body.

Srila Rupa Gosvami has given a process for this transcendental vrtti of bhakti to come upon the conditioned souls tongue and other senses, and that is:

adau sraddha tatah sadhu sangatha bhajana-kriya,
tato nartha nivritti syat tato nistha rucis tatah,
athasaktis tato bhavas tatah premabhyudancati
sadhakam ayam pemnah pradurbhave bhavet kramah

"In the beginning there must be faith. Then one becomes interested in associating with pure devotees. Thereafter one is initiated by the spiritual master and executes the regulative principles under his orders. Thus one is freed from all unwanted habits and becomes firmly fixed in devotional service. Thereafter, one develops taste and attachment. This is the way of sadhana-bhakti, the execution of devotional service according to the regulative principles. Gradually emotions intensify, and finally there is an awakening of love. This is the gradual development of love of Godhead for the devotee interested in Krsna consciousness." (Madhya 23.16)

Without accepting diksa from a bona fide guru, can one develop bhakti or not? Some think that chanting, remembering, reading books, and performing arcana, sravanam and kirtanam is sufficient and there is no need for a mediator. They think that accepting a rtvik person is sufficient for attaining pure bhakti, and there is no need of accepting diksa from any living self-realized guru.

A Guru must be a devotee

A brahmana who is a great devotee of the Supreme Lord is the spiritual master
of all human beings. Everyone should worship him as if he were Lord Krsna
Himself. Conversly, a person born in an aristocratic family, initiated in all yajnas,
and learned in a thousand branches of the Vedas, but is not a devotee of Krsna,
cannot be a genuine spiritual master.
Padma Purana/HBV 53-54/CC Madhya 24.330 pt

The qualities of a genuine Guru

One who is an ocean of mercy, who is completely self-satisfied, who acts for the welfare
of all souls, who is desireless (free from lust), who is perfect in all respects, who is
well-versed in the scriptures (and therefore knows Krsna-tattva), who can cut apart all
the doubts of his disciples, and who is free from lethargy is known as a genuine Guru.
Hari-bhakti-vilasa 1.45,46 quoted from Visnu-smrti Vacana

A qualified Guru and disciple are very rare

Very few have the great fortune of hearing about the soul. Among the few who
hear about it, most cannot understand it, because it is hard to find a Guru who is
a genuine seer of the truth. Such a qualified, genuine Guru, is very rare. Only
those who follow his teachings can realise the truth and become expert in the science
of bhakti. Such bona fide disciples are also very rare.
Katha Upanisad 1.2.7

A bona fide Guru has no fear of material existence and is everyone'92s well-wisher

Because the Supreme Personality of Godhead is the Supersoul and friend of all
living beings, one who is engaged in His devotional service has not the least fear
or disturbance in material existence. One who knows this secret is actually
enlightened. Such a bonafide spiritual master is qualitatively one with K'e5'f1'eba and
is His direct representative in the material world.
SB 4.29.51/GKH (P)

Sri Guru is asraya Bhagavan (servitor Bhagavan, abode of bhakti)

A person who knows (1) the truth about knowledge (spiritual reality) and ignorance
(m'e4y'e4); (2) the auspicious, ultimate spiritual goal (s'e4dhya) and the inauspicious,
conditioned material existence of the living entities; and (3) the process of creation
and the destruction, only such a personality can be addressed as '91bhagavan'91.
Visnu Purana 6.5.78/BB 1.5.37

Sri Krsna is the Original Guru of the whole world

My obeisances to Krsna who is the Guru of the whole world.
Sri Garga samhita/Narada Pancaratra

However, Srimati Radhika is the Prema Guru of Sri Krsna

Sri Krsna says, '93The prema of Radhika is My Guru, and I am Her dancing student.
Her prema makes Me dance various novel dances.'94
CC Adi 4.124

A Vaisnava, even if born a sudra, can be the acarya of all varnas because
he is dear to Krsna

A brahmana, ksatriya or vaisya can be the Guru for the sudra class, but a Vaisnava, even
if born a sudra, can be the Guru of these higher varnas, because he is so dear to the Lord.
Padma Purana

An acarya teaches by personal example, and only one who has such a Guru can know the truth

Only one whose Guru is an acarya can know the truth; only one who follows the
acarya (and learns directly from his acara - behaviour) can know things in truth.
Candogya Upanisad 6.14.2/JD ch 20

An acarya is he whose behaviour reflects his realisation

An acarya is one who fully understands the conclusions of the revealed scriptures
and whose behavior reflects his deep realisation. He is a living example
because he teaches the meaning of the scriptures both by word and deed.
Vayu Purana

An acarya is not one who only confers the sacred thread. He trains his disciples
in sacrifice and teaches them the confidential meaning of the Vedas. Such a
spiritual master is an 'e4c'e4rya according to saintly authorities.
Manu-samhita 2.140

Example is better than precept

Whatever a great man does, common men follow. Whatever standards he sets by exemplary
acts, all the world pursues.
BG 3.21

One who is perfect in both practice and preaching is the Guru of the entire universe
(Srila Sanatana Gosvami said to Srila Haridasa Thakura:) Some practice namabhajana
but do not preach the glories of sri-harinama, others preach but do not
practice. You, however, perform both duties to sri-harinama and are perfect in
both practice and preaching. Hence you are the jagat Guru and the foremost personality
within this world, for you practice what you preach.
CC Antya 4.102-3

The four defects do not occur in sastra or in Sri Guru

Mistakes and misconceptions (bhrama), illusions (pramada), cheating (vipralipsa)
and defective perception (karana-apatava) do not occur in the sayings of genuine
sadhus [In other words, Sri Guru is free from material defects and therefore everything
he does and says is perfect].
CC Adi 2.86

A Guru must be a Vaisnava

A brahmana, though expert in the six kinds of duties (performance of yajna, sacrifice,
studying the sastra and teaching it to others, giving in charity and accepting
gifts from others, the skillful recitation of mantras, and the use of tantras), cannot
be accepted as Guru if he is not a Vaisnava. On the other hand, if a person is born
in the family of candalas (dog eaters) but is devotedly engaged in the worship of Sri
Visnu he is fit to be accepted as Guru according to the sastric injunction.
HBV/GKH 1.17/Arcana-dipika p. 118

Sri Guru serves in the nitya-lila as a confidential associate of Sri Radha

Sri Gurudeva is always present with the sakhis and mnjaris, arranging for the perfection
of yugala-kisora'92s amorous pastimes (rati-keli) within the kunjas of Vraja.
Sri Gurvastakam 6, Srila Visvantha Cakravarti Thakura

Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Prabhupada: Can one worship Krsna without being
under the guidance of Sri Guru? Never. Only by getting the favour of the most favoured is it
possible to cultivate Krsna consciousness. When one is not under the guidance of the most
favoured, one will not find anything favourable for the cultivation of Krsna consciousness or
for the pursuit of Krsna'92s happiness. Our only aim in life is to cultivate Krsna bhakti. This can
only be done under the guidance or instruction of a pure devotee. Sri Varsabhanavi-devi (Srimati
Radhika) is most favoured by Krsna. Worshipping Her is most favourable for worshipping
Krsna. No one is more favourable than Sri Radha. Those who are very dear to Srimati
Radharani are all our spiritual masters (in the Rupanuga line). We, the Gaudiyaa Vaisnavas,
are more on the side of Radharani than on the side of Krsna. Indeed, Sri Gurudeva is the
non-different representative of Srimati Radhika. ('91Guru-tattva'92 paper p. 1)

One-pointedness to Sri Guru and Srimati Radhika

O Gurudeva! You are the beloved gopika of Srimati Radhika and can bestow Her
service. Bestowing upon me the shelter of your lotus feet, kindly make me blissfully engaged
within the ocean of the blissfull mellows of service to Her lotus feet in the ku'efjas of Vraja.
Stava Kalpadruma, Srila Raghunatha dasa Gosvami

Sri Guru is the mercy manifestation of Sri Krsna in this world

According to their karma, all living entities are wandering throughout the
entire universe. Out of many millions of wandering living entities, one who is very
fortunate receives the mercy of both Sri Guru and Krsna, who plant the seed of
the bhakti creeper in his heart.
CC Mad 19.151/BRSB p. 34/BPKG p. 396

Sri Guru must be a '91Gosvami'92, master of his senses and subduer of the six urges

A wise and self-composed person who can subdue the impetus to speak, the agitation
of the mind, the onset of anger, the vehemence of the tongue, the urge of
the belly and the agitation of the genitals can instruct the entire world. In other
words, all persons may become disciples of such a self-controlled Guru.
Upadesamrta 1/STB p. 111

If one is well-versed in krsna-tattva, he should be accepted as Guru

Whether one is a brahmana, a sannyasi, a sudra or whatever, if he is fully conversant
with krsna-tattva, he is eligible to become a Guru.
CC Mad 8.128/BRSB p. 38/JD ch. 1/Arcana-dipika p. 118

One who is expert in the science of Krsna, whatever social order he may belong
to, including sudra and outcaste, is to be accepted as an acarya. One who ignores
this principle and accepts a Guru solely on the basis of social position will be ruined.
Prema-vivarta

[In the purport to CC Adi-lila 1.46, Srila Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada quotes
from Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakuras commentary called Anubhasya:] As mentioned
previously, a disciple should always respect the Guru as a manifestation of Krsna,
but at the same time one should always remember that a Guru is never authorized
to imitate the transcendental pastimes of the Lord. False '91gurus'92 pose themselves as
identical with Sri Krsna in every respect to exploit the sentiments of their followers,
but such impersonalists can only mislead their disciples, for their ultimate aim
is to become one with the Lord. This is against the principles of pure devotion. The
real Vedic philosophy is acintya-bhedabheda-tattva, which establishes everything as
one with and different from the Lord. Srila Raghunatha dasa Gosvami confirms
that this is the real position of a bona fide Guru and says one should always think
of the spiritual master in terms of his intimate relationship with Mukunda.

Please accept my humble obeisances.
All glories to HDG Sri Srimad Bhaktivedanta Narayan Maharaj.
All glories to guru-parampara (Gaudiya Vaisnava).
All glories to bonafide authorized authority, I submit at your timeless, blissful feet, begging for shade, Gurudev.
Begging for your causeless mercy, because I have done nothing that could deserve it.
Please give me your mercy to eradicate the ignorance covering these souls with my sincere effort. Please bestow your mercy on me Gurudev. Hare Krishna.

1) The Qualities & Qualifications of Sri Guru

Therefore (because one cannot attain real peace or happiness in this material world),
a person who seriously desires the ultimate spiritual perfection must seek a bona fide
Guru and take shelter of him. The qualifications of Sri Guru is that (1) he has fully
realised the Vedic scriptures (sabda-brahma) and (2) the Supreme Absolute Truth
(para-brahma), and (3) for whom the mundane world holds no charm whatsoever.
SB 11.3.21/SBG p. 314/BRSB p. 38, 44/Arcana-dipika/'92Guru-Devatatma'92 p. 11

One must only accept a Guru who has fully realised both Sastra and Krsna

To acquire transcendental knowledge of Sri Bhagavan, one must approach a Guru
who knows the real import of the Vedic sastras and who has fully realised the
Supreme Absolute Truth, Sri Krsna. One should offer him the firewood of sublime
faith for the performance of yaj'efa (i.e. the yajna of service to Sri Hari; of assisting Sri
Guru in the sankirtana yajna; of turning the conditioned souls into lovers of God).
Mundaka Upanisad 1.2.12/JD ch. 6, 20/SBG p. 313

Sri Guru is characterised by the three essential qualities of pure bhakti
described by Srila Rupa Gosvami in this key sloka:

Uttama-bhakti, pure devotional service, is the cultivation of activities that are
meant exclusively for the benefit of Sri Krsna. It is the uninterrupted flow of service
to Sri Krsna, performed through all endeavors of body, mind and speech, well
as through expression of various spiritual sentiments (bhavas). It is not covered by
jnana (speculative knowledge aimed at impersonal liberation), karma (rewardseeking
activity), yoga or austerities; and it is completely free from all desires other
than the aspiration to bring happiness to Sri Krsna.
BRS 1.1.11/CC Madhya 19.167/MS p. 32 /JD ch. 8/BRSB p. 3/BPKG p. 364
Editorial note: This sloka is usually quoted as the definition of pure bhakti.

Sri Guru delivers the jivas burning in the fire of material existence

Just as a raincloud extinguishes a blazing forest fire by showering its rain upon it,
Sri Gurudeva, by his rain of divine mercy, delivers the people burning in the fire of
material existence, suffering the threefold miseries (adhyatmika, adhibhautika,
adhidaivika). I offer prayers unto the lotus feet of Sri Gurudeva, who manifests when
Krsnas mercy becomes very thick and who is an ocean of auspicious qualities.

Sri Krsna tells Uddhava that Sri Guru is non-different from Him

Oh Uddhava! Know the 'e4c'e4rya to be as good as Myself. He is My very svarupa
(My expansion). At no time should one, out of envy, neglect or disrespect the
Guru as an ordinary mortal, nor should he be considered to have any faults,
because the Guru is the sum total of all the demigods.
SB 11.17.27/CC Adi 1.46

Sri Guru is simultaneously different and non-different from Krsna

Although I know that my Guru is a servitor of 'c7r'e9 Caitanya, I also know that
He is also a full manifestation (prak'e4'e7a) of the Lord.
CC 'c4di 1.44

Sri Guru is the direct representative of Sri Krsna

All the scriptures proclaim Sri Gurudeva to be saksat-hari-tva, endowed with the
potency of Sri Hari, and he is also considered by all the great saints to be His direct
representative. Indeed, Sri Gurudeva is very dear to the Lord, being His confidential
servitor (acintya-bhedabheda prakasa-vigraha, the inconceivable different and nondifferent
worshipable manifestation of the Lord). I offer prayers unto his lotus feet.
Sri Gurvastakam 7, Srila Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakura/SGG p. 21

Sri Gurudeva is very dear to Sri Mukunda

Always remember and meditate on Sri Gurudeva as very dear to Sri Mukunda
(because he is very dear to Srimati Radhika, being Her confidential servitor).
Manah-siksa 2

"Certainly being disciple does not imply qualifications."
well, if you are patient of good doctor (A.C.Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada, in sense as spiritual doctor to heal us from material life) - then we are already saved. But this often happens that one simply becomes proud to be some relative of brahmana and gives up spiritual growth. And thus there are brahmanas, who are only brahmanas by birth. This was said by Bhaktisiddhanta Sraswati Thakura: he said that brahmanas are not always vaishanvas, but vaishnava gets qualification of brahmana (knows Brahman etc).

position is by qualification, not by birth. So one can have birth either in good/favorable or bad/unfavorable for devotional service family/country/religion etc, but one can also use a chance or loose it (and misuse life for material advancement).