Pariprashnena — Q&A Archive

Narayana Maharaja took sannyasa 4 years before Srila Prabhupada did. He is 87 years old now and has been a sannyasi for 57 years. None of his disciples became sahajiyas. These are FACTS.
If anybody is qualified to explain madhurya rasa, it is Narayana Maharaja. He has every right to do what he does.

Kula pavana P., what you state has nothing to do with the topic. NMs approach differs from Srila Prabhupadas regardless of his glory.

One devotee who is in touch with Paramadvaiti M.s group and B.G. Narasingha M.s group told me that theres a wide disagreement with NM among various GMs as well. I also read about this earlier.

[quote][cite] VEDA:[/cite]Kula pavana P., what you state has nothing to do with the topic. [/quote]

I was primarily addressing the following question: "does it directly or indirectly foster a tendency towards cheap sentimentality and mundane lust in the name of devotion (sahajiya-ism)..."

A guru has a right to present Krsnas message in a way he sees fit for his disciples, and it may not be exactly the same way as another guru.

"One should very carefully avoid associating with both the sahajiyas, who are sometimes known as Vaisnavas, and the non-Vaisnavas, or avaisnavas. Their association changes the transcendental devotional service of Lord Krishna into sense gratification, and when sense gratification enters the mind of a devotee, he is contaminated."
(Caitanya-caritamrta, Antya 6.278)
What he is clearly saying here[Srila Prabhupada] is that the devotional service of the Supreme can itself be changed '97mid-stream, so to speak'97into sense gratification. Put in another way, the commentary forcefully indicates that Yogamaya can be converted into Mahamaya. This principle is not well known, although Prabhupada had previously given a hint about it in his Bhagavad-gita:......
"They also have partial independence, but by misuse of their independence, when the service attitude is transformed into the propensity for sense enjoyment, they come under the sway of lust."......
(Bg, 3.39, purport)
So when a guru like Narayana maharaja becomes concerned with the ambitious mode ....wanting to be the iskcon successor of Srila Prabhupada ,Is this spiritual or mundane?Is his service attitude being transformed into the propensity for sense enjoyment?.....And there by under the sway of lust?

In Re-Visioning ISKCON: Constructive Theologizing for Reform and Renewal, by Thomas Herzig (Tamal Krishna Goswami) and Kenneth Valpey (Krishna Kshetra Das) edited by Ravindra Svarupa Das (Dr. William H. Deadwyler) the suggestions of finding common ground with mayavadis for example show a dramatic shift from Ideology of Shrila Prabhupada. This is the biggest shift from ideas of Shrila Prabhupada I have seen. In contrast with this Swami Bhakivedanta Narayana is rather a plain fundamentalist and an orthodox follower of one of the branches of Shrila Bhaktisiddhanta.

1) His message does not differ at all, he is doing nothing that is not found and recommended within Srila Prabhupadas books.

2) SGD is trying to portray NM as a Sahajiya, firstly lets define what a Sahajiya is by a letter from Srila Prabhupada

'93The transcendental symptoms of ecstasy certainly are auspicious, but they are not for advertising to others. One should not advertise directly or indirectly that one is feeling like this. They should be checked. Otherwise one will gradually become sahajiya or one who takes spiritual advancement as something materially manifest.'94
(Letter to Makhanlal from Los Angeles on June 3, 1970)

NM to my knowledge has never displayed external symptoms or engages in cheap displays of any kind, he is in the same disciplic line as Srila Prabhupada who had great respect for NM so why should NM be doing or saying anything different to Srila Prabhupada.

3) Yes he openly states that he is an Acharya Successor in the real Iskcon line, but how does Srila Prabupada define the real Iskcon?
Taken from the preface of Bhagavad Gita As It Is, Page 10: http://bbtedit.bbt.info/files/72_Gita_showing_revisions_00_preface_and_intro.pdf

"Some of them said that it is greatly fortunate for the Americans that I have started this Krishna Conscious movement in America. But actually the original father of this movement is Lord Krishna himself"

NM is not making a claim on the assets of the Incorporated Institution he is rightfully claiming his position in the Krishna Consciousness movement that started with Lord Krishna. NM was instructed by his own Guru (Bhakti Prajana Kesava Maharaja) who also gave Sannyas to Srila Prabhupada to help and serve Srila Prabhupada and NM considers Srila Prabhupada to be his shiksha Guru.

4) SGD uses a personal example of where he met non-initiated followers of NM (Bhakta Smos) that were openly preaching ranganuga bhakti on the streets.
I have memories of many Bhaktas when I joined Iskcon and some were preaching at the Sunday feasts and were often rebuked by other initiated devotees for preaching nonsense because they still did not understand the philosophy. However foolish a bhakta or even a disciple acts that cannot be used as a disqualifier of the Guru, thats like trying to pin the activities of some foolish Iskcon disciples on Srila Prabhupada, who would dare to do this?

5) Iskconites that protest NM usually bring up the issue that he is freely distributing Rananuga Bhakti and Gopi Lila on the streets of the world, yet I cannot find one example where he has said anything about this and infact it is a false assumption that is usually based on the action of a few foolish bhaktas that have mis-understood NM, just like some of Srila Prabhupadas disciples mis-understood and started a Gopi Bhava club back in the 70s

What does NM say about the topic and the qualification:
[Nowadays, especially in European countries and in Russia, devotees think they are very rasika. *[See Endnote 2]. They want rasa (the taste of spiritual mellows). They want to go up to the top of the tree of prema at once. They only want madanakhya-bhava (the highest ecstatic devotional love, situated only in Srimati Radhika). They do not want to follow vaidhi-bhakti. They dont like vaidhi-bhakti.

This idea is very dangerous, so be very careful about this. Those who have these ideas are nonsense sahajiya-vaisnavas.

Srila Rupa Gosvami is Sri Rupa Manjari (his form as a gopi), but outwardly he was following all the limbs of vaidhi-bhakti. If, by the mercy of ones qualified Guru, one has actual greed in his heart - if he is internally serving Krsna on the path of raganuga in his siddha-deha (his original, self-realized position) - he must be at the stage of rati. Real greed will manifest at that stage.*[See endnote 5] Before this, a person has no real greed. In the name of greed, males will be attracted to ladies and the ladies will be attracted to men. This is very dangerous, for they will go to hell. They will not go to the transcendental world to be manjaris." ]

Nowhere is he advertising that we should be distributing Gopi lila on the streets, in-fact quite the opposite he is also saying like Srila Prabupada, first you become qualified then you can look at these subjects.

Here is another quote from Srila Prabhupada for SGD as he is always fond of saying how many temples and followers Iskcon has vs the others:

'93You cannot judge a movement simply by the number of its followers. If one man is genuine, then the movement is successful. It is not a question of quantity, but quality.'94
(Srila Prabhupada, Science of Self Realization, Ch. 2, "Choosing a Spiritual Master-Saints & Swindlers")

> suggestions of finding common ground with mayavadis

Theres no mayavada in SB 1.2.11. Advaya tattva jnana refers to the qualitative sameness, abheda. But thats not the end of story since therere also bheda vakyas based on rasa, like Taittiriya Up. 2.7.

> Swami Bhakivedanta Narayana is rather a plain fundamentalist and an orthodox follower of one of the branches of Shrila Bhaktisiddhanta.

His orthodoxy seems to be contested by the above mentioned disagreement of other GM groups.

Surprise surprise the GM is in disagreement...Iskcon has disagreements about most subjects and whats news about that, they just settle it through their GBC votes.

Do you have specific quotes VEDA? or just heard something on the grape vine, you know like a throw a little mud it may just stick? I mean you either know something or you dont. Why just offer up innuendos?

Read me carefully: GM groups are in disagreement _with NM_ (his approach). The devotee who mentioned this is trustworthy enough for me. Hes neutral regarding NM.

So some agree and some disagree...was that not the same way they felt about Srila Prabhupada? It is still not very specific as to exactly what they are in disagreement about? Approach to what exactly? His general approach? Vaisnavas are usually a tad more specific than that. Either he is doing something wrong by way of reference to shastra or he isnt. The acid test is, Guru (NM) what the previous Sadhus have said and Shastra.

As you are fond of telling people to get on topic, the topic is about if NMs message differs to Srila Prabhupadas, we already know many many people disagree with his approach.

I understand that the main issue is his public preaching of raganuga topics. This wasnt done by B.P. Kesava M., Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati, etc.

I have also heard that at some point in time Srila Sridhara Maharaja expressed some concern and criticism in regard to Narayana Maharajas preaching style. There were some other disagreements and one issue in particular that had to do with performing Rathayatra on the streets of Nabadwipa became a point of heated contention between the two camps. To this day the Sri Caitanya Saraswat Math and Narayana Maharaja are not on friendly terms.

VEDA, by public I take it that you mean in a temple with his disciples listening, asking questions, and maybe a few inquisitive Iskcon devotees listening in. Of course NM discusses Raganuga Bhakti, of which he is constantly taking questions on. Srila Prabupada also discussed Raganuga Bhakti and published it in his books which have been distributed across the planet, the most precious gem of the three worlds, sitting right there on countless public shelves, which is the mood of Gauranga Mahaprabhu. The Brahmins locked this up for thousands of years and very few knew about it, Chaitanya Mahaprabhu came along and broke the locks and Srila Prabhupada distributed it all across the planet.

>>I understand that the main issue is his public preaching of raganuga topics. This wasnt done by B.P. Kesava M., Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati, etc.

Bhaktisiddantas father (Bhaktivinoda Thakur) was one of the biggest exponents of Raganuga Bhakti, and you have to remember the times they lived in, it was Bhaktisiddantas father that lifted the teachings of Chaitanya Mahaprabhu out of the mud of Sahajiyism, to this very day Sahajiyas travel around Bengal village to village, doing bhajan, falling down on the ground and displaying cheap displays of ecstatic symptoms, and in some cases asking for villagers wives to join them in Rasa lila. This has led to the greatest hatred of the Vaisnavas and there are still many villages to this day that hate Vaisnavas and will never let them enter their village, any Vaisnava, Sahajiya or not they are simply not welcome. This is what Bhaktisiddanta wanted to separate himself from.

Times have changed and the modern era is upon us along with the Internet, people including devotees want to know everything right now, today. NM is gently discussing the topics while giving plenty of warning at the same time. You need to be qualified, and he is stating it in triplicate, if you are not qualified you will achieve the opposite and take yourself to hell. His main discussions are on the Bhakti Rasamrta Sindu the full version of Prabhupadas summary (Nectar of Devotion) which is the lead up to the practice and how one becomes qualified and the various states one goes through before reaching the end goal. He does not openly discuss the techniques or the deepest content. Sure he gives enough to make you want more, to make you want to qualify!

Portnoy, regarding the Rathayatra issue, yes well these things happen and when you have Maths right next door to each other someone at sometime will do something that will crap the other guys off. Like both Maths arranging a Rathayatra at the same time. Dont forget after the demise of Bhaktisiddanta although they all present as Gaudia Math, many are distincly different groups and have their own Acharyas.

The Sri Chaitanya Saraswat Math has a very distinctly humble mood and I am a big fan of Sri Govinda Maharaja and of BR Sridhar Maharaja I see them all as exalted devotees and eternal associates of Bhaktisiddanta Maharaja, if we are lucky we could only dream of serving these great souls.

NM frankly is what Iskcon needs, he is the wake up call, the adrenelin shot, not in the arm, but right through the chest cavity into the heart. Someone needs to tell these idiots where they are at. They wont listen to anyone and their first reaction as always is to discredit, set the mis-information channels into operation, create the straw man arguments. However with so many Iskcon devotees doing the simple comparison of NM vs the rubber stamps the exodus is starting to take place and the GBC are now wanting a reconciliation with NM and trying to put relations back on a respectful level.

CC 3.2.105 only states who were Chaitanyas intimate disciples it makes no reference to what can and cannot be discussed. So thats an irrelevant quote.

Sri Caitanya Caritamrita Adi 4.15-16
prema-rasa-niryasa karite asvadana, raga-marga bhakti loke karite pracarana, rasika-sekhara krishna parama-karuna, ei dui hetu haite icchara udgama

Translation:
The Lords desire to appear was born from two reasons: the Lord wanted to taste the sweet essence of the mellows of love of God, and He wanted to propagate devotional service in the world on the platform of spontaneous attraction. Thus He is known as supremely jubilant and as the most merciful of all.

Srila Prabhupadas Purport:
During the period of Lord Krishnas appearance, the killing of asuras or nonbelievers such as Kamsa and Jarasandha was done by Vishnu, who was within the person of Sri Krishna. Such apparent killing by Lord Sri Krishna took place as a matter of course and was an incidental activity for Him. But the real purpose of Lord Krishnas appearance was to stage a dramatic performance of His transcendental pastimes at Vrajabhumi, thus exhibiting the highest limit of transcendental mellow in the exchanges of reciprocal love between the living entity and the Supreme Lord. These reciprocal exchanges of mellows are called raga-bhakti, or devotional service to the Lord in transcendental rapture. Lord Sri Krishna wants to make known to all the conditioned souls that He is more attracted by raga-bhakti than vidhi-bhakti, or devotional service under scheduled regulations. It is said in the Vedas (Taittiriya Up. 2.7), raso vai sah: the Absolute Truth is the reservoir for all kinds of reciprocal exchanges of loving sentiments. He is also causelessly merciful, and He wants to bestow upon us this privilege of raga-bhakti. Thus He appeared by His own internal energy. He was not forced to appear by any extraneous force.

"Lord Sri Krishna wants to make known to all the conditioned souls that He is more attracted by raga-bhakti than vidhi-bhakti, or devotional service under scheduled regulations."

I actually have no argument that the finer details of Raganuha Bhakti should be reserved for confidential discussion, but there is much that can be discussed that is broad and general.

Let me make it simpler for you VEDA, when the Gaudia Math published Bhakti Rasamrta Sindhuh, they did so in two volumes. Volume one is for all Sadaks (devotees) and is for general discussion and distribution and is available in their bookshops for all to purchase, read and ask questions about. Volume two is not for public discussion and was even held off from publication because of the nature of its contents and has never been released for public consumption.

NM never discusses the contents of Volume two, He only discusses what has been published for general distribution in Volume one.

Devotees who say Raganuga Bhakti should never be discussed in an open audience are showing they know very little on the subject or have never read Bhakti Rasamrta Sindhuh Volume one.

By public I mean in front of a general audience - both disciples and others. Otoh, raganuga topics are to be discussed with a select few intimate disciples. Mahaprabhu had three and half (CC 3.2.105). For others - kirtan, tattva topics and prasadam. Same with Prabhupada.

> CC 3.2.105 only states who were Chaitanyas intimate disciples it makes no reference to what can and cannot be discussed. So thats an irrelevant quote.

Not really.

Due to the immature understanding of such rascals, common men should not discuss Krsna'92s pastimes with the gopis. A nondevotee should not even discuss His stealing sweet rice for His devotees. It is warned that one should not even think about these things. Although Krsna is the purest of the pure, mundane people, thinking of Krsna'92s pastimes that appear immoral, themselves become polluted. Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu therefore never publicly discussed Krsna'92s dealings with the gopis. He used to discuss these dealings only with three confidential friends. He never discussed rasa-lila publicly, as the professional reciters do, although they do not understand Krsna or the nature of the audience. However, Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu encouraged the public chanting of the holy name on a huge scale for as many hours as possible. (CC 2.4.133 p.)

If youre attracted to NM, its your thing. But the fact remains: his approach differs from SP, his own guru and param guru.

Attached is the GBC position for those who dont know it.

>But the fact remains: his approach differs from SP, his own guru and param guru.

So whats wrong in being different. He is a different personality. Why should he try to be a carbon copy, a clone of Srila Prabhupada? Why should a lotus start imitating and try to become a rose? He is a different Acarya. There is no need to compare him to Srila Prabhupada and argue who is superior and who is inferior? If some Acarya has different approach then Srila Prabhupada, does it mean that he is a sahajiya or some sort of criminal? Or now in future for the rest of eternity each single acarya has to be a carbon copy of Srila Prabhupada and if someone is different he is sahajiya.

[quote][cite] dweller-in-peace:[/cite]>But the fact remains: his approach differs from SP, his own guru and param guru.

So whats wrong in being different. He is a different personality. Why should he try to be a carbon copy, a clone of Srila Prabhupada? Why should a lotus start imitating and try to become a rose? He is a different Acarya. [/quote]

Srila Prabhupada was quite a bit different in many ways than his own guru. And Srila Bhaktisiddhanta was very, very, different than his guru or even his own father, BVT. If it was OK for them to be different, why is it not OK for NM to be different?

> Srila Prabhupada was quite a bit different in many ways than his own guru.

Their mood was in sync.

The difference simply means that NM cant be a successor of Srila Prabhupada. Thats all.

[quote][cite] VEDA:[/cite]> Srila Prabhupada was quite a bit different in many ways than his own guru.

Their mood was in sync.

The difference simply means that NM cant be a successor of Srila Prabhupada. Thats all.[/quote]

That would also mean that BSST cant be a successor to GKDB.

Whatever. Does not seem to be that great, everything is in Prabhupadas books, but maybe NM gives a bit too much of one thing over the other. He is certainly at odds with Trip Swami and others who say that Prabhupada was mainly in sakya rasa. So what is a worse deviation?

VEDA wake up and read the posts, we just said he doesnt discuss those topics referred to in (CC 2.4.133 p.) he only discusses Volume one of Rasamrta Sindhuh which is NOT the Krishnas pastimes with the gopis. Your repeated lack of understanding on this topic is showing.

>>Their mood was in sync

NM is only discussing what Srila Prabhupada had written about in his Nectar of Devotion and C.C. Volumes and what was openly published, distributed to the public and discussed even by Bhaktisiddanta Maharaja (check the date on the Bhakti Rasamrta Sinduhs Volume one available at Yoga Pith, these were published while Bhaktisiddanta Maharaja was alive) These topics are non-confidential.

That does not constitute a mood change. Individual? yes he is, Outspoken? absolutely as most acharyas are. But mood change is another attempt by die hard Iskconites to thwart free thinking devotees that refuse a GBC performed lobotomy.

>>The difference simply means that NM cant be a successor of Srila Prabhupada. Thats all.
What is this garbage? You think you are the one that now rubber stamps successors? LMHO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

It doesnt work like that VEDA he is a successor and he is in the disciplic line, whether one person knows it or all people know it.

And VEDA STOP passing around text files that 1) Are 14 years old and completely outdated 2) Are simple text files than can be modified by anyone. If you want to live up to your tag name "VEDA" then pass authorized links that are published on authorized GBC websites. Stop being a complete irresponsible nonsense. You need to keep up with current events...14 year old text files and he claims its the current thinking on NM by the GBC ...ROFL!

A small contingent of the GBC met with NM on the 25th Oct 2009 here is an excerpt of what happened:

"Narayana Maharaja made several proposals how to improve the relationship between ISKCON and himself and his followers. The ISKCON delegation said it would convey those suggestions to the full GBC Body. Narayana Maharaja and the ISKCON leaders expressed their shared desire that the two Vaishnava organizations would like to see cordial relations between them based on mutual respect and understanding."

Taken from the authorised News Iskcon website, check it out for yourself.

http://news.iskcon.com/node/2354

Manasi Seva --- true what you say about the two Maths having some disagreement and in my life experience whenever there are two sides to some issue the truth is usually somewhere in the middle -- or at least in between. Besides -- its not for me to judge and you are right -- exalted souls such as Sridhara Maharaja, Srila Govinda Maharaja, Narayana Maharaja --- they are so beyond me it aint even funny. Personally I am very satisfied sticking closely to Srila Prabhupadas teachings. My main reason for not reading or studying anything else has nothing to do with agreement or disagreement about the level of bhakti or whatever. For me its just about loyalty. Srila Prabhupada poured every ounce of his energy (spilled gallons of blood) .. stayed up night after night ... translating, writing, dictating ... and unless and until I have read everything that he has written I just dont feel good about what I consider for myself extracurricular activities. Again -- this is my way and I dont try to push it on anybody else or lay a guilt trip on my godbrothers who are flourishing under the siksa guidance of either NM or Sri Caitanya Saraswat Math.

One other observation on this topic ---- one of Srila Prabhupadas first endeavors was to publish KRSNA Book -- a summary study of the Tenth Canto of Srimad-Bhagavatam. On the one hand he was telling us that one is forbidden to jump to the Tenth Canto without first reading and comprehending the previous nine cantos --- and he gave the analogy of beginning at the lotus feet of the Lord. Then he decides to present for the world the transcendental pastimes of the Lord in KRSNA Book -- but in such a way that its impossible to read it and think that they are ordinary pastimes. That was very revolutionary on the part of Srila Prabhupada as was his taking on female disciples and creating a brahmacarini ashram --- turning us mlecchas into brahmanas, etc. etc. In fact -- there is some Vedic injunction that a sannyasi should never cross an ocean of water. Imagine if Srila Prabhupada took that to heart.

Hey -- its all so fascinating and mind boggling. We argue and quarrel because we have to -- we are card carrying members of the kali yuga -- a time when humans are short-lived, lazy, misguided, quarrelsome, unlucky and above all, always disturbed. At the same time everyone here is very special having come in contact with Raja Vidya -- the secret of all secrets -- the ABSOLUTE TRUTH. Its almost like that scene in Raiders of the Lost Ark --- when the ark was opened by those who were impure -- the power, purity and potency of the energy that emanated from it melted the bodies of those in attendance. I feel like that sometimes. IM MELTING .... HEEEEELLLLLLPPPP

LMHO....I like you Portnoy you are so much fun, and I perfectly agree you with about Srila Prabhupada, he will always be my #1 Shiksha Guru in him I have absolute faith and by seeing what he achieved gives one faith in the entire disciplic succession.

I just dont like to see Great Vaisnavas that are contributing so much and giving over of their time and energy to help others on the path get blasphemed and slighted by inaccurate innuendos.

======================

Yes wasnt that seen when the Nazis opened the ark...Wax figurines in front of heat jets...you only melted when you look right?...I will be careful not to look...only to listen.. I am that little monkey with his hands over his eyes "see no evil"

(O_O)...(X_X)

I agree rasa108. Even if a disciple is convinced that when Srila Prabhupada instructed "I want none of my disciples to have any intimate association with my godbrothers (Gaudiya Math)" it was meant for all of us and for all time under any and all circumstances -- no exceptions -- no rationalizations .... then fine -- keep a (safe) distance but that doesnt mean lash out at any or all of them on a public forum, criticizing and condemning them -- but rather from that distance be respectful and represent Srila Prabhupada with maturity, dignity and class.

A disciples goal in life is to please, satisfy, glorify and serve his guru -- to make his guru smile. If we think like that ("what would Srila Prabhupada think of what I said or did or wrote -- would he be pleased ....) then we cant go wrong. Thats not true -- we can go wrong but if our intention is sincere then even if we make a mistake and do, say, write something that displeases our guru -- it can be forgiven.

One time during a darshan one of the godbrothers refused to come join the others because he felt very fallen having slipped and smoked a cigarette that morning. He was standing outside the room by the door but refused to come in. Srila Prabhupada was told about it and he said, "whatever you have done, I forgive you -- now come sit down and join us."

>Portnoy: My main reason for not reading or studying anything else has nothing to do with agreement or disagreement about the level of bhakti or whatever. For me its just >about loyalty. Srila Prabhupada poured every ounce of his energy (spilled gallons of blood) .. stayed up night after night ... translating, writing, dictating

This is the mood of those who are loyal to Srila Prabhupadas movement....its not about judgement of others, its about repaying the debt we owe to Srila Prabhupada who was the only one who successfully brought Krsna Consciousness to the West - without which we would have nothing.

In the end Srila Narayana Maharaja will do his activities and ISKCON theirs....we should offer our respects and let it rest, carefully avoiding offences to devotees (including all the great souls on this forum).

> That would also mean that BSST cant be a successor to GKDB.

Imho, the section The Blessings of Srila Gaurakisora dasa Babaji in the GKDBs biography An Era Not To Be Forgotten throws light on this apparent contradiction.

Its also nicely described here: http://www.scsmath.com/docs/gaurakisor_babaji.html

manasi_seva,

what I repeat is the conclusion of other GM groups about NM. Again: they disagree with him.

Srila Prabhupada lectured from BRS much less (as per Vedabase: 47 lectures between October 1972-January 1973, 1 in June 1970) in comparison with BG and SB since tattva comes before rasa.

I dont thwart free thinking devotees. Let them think as freely as they want. (SP used to say it another way though.)

The mood difference is real. NM is acarya in his own mission. Let his mission and ISKCON be good neighbors with cordial relations. No more succession claims? No more preaching to ISKCON congregations? No more selling NM books in front of Krsna Balaram Mandir? If yes, then its great news. Im in favor of ISKCONs cooperation with GM groups on good neighbor terms, without unwelcome intrusions from any side. Plain civility.

You dont have to read the file but its informative and quotes from NMs own Prabandhavali.
There was another, updated document in 1997 Following in Srila Prabhupadas footsteps.

Btw, why are you concerned about authorized GBC websites if you dont follow GBC? Or did you change your mind recently?

There is always infighting between different maths. ISKCON should be different from that, we should not take part in these politics. It is nice to hear that Veda thinks this way, now we just have to stop quoting from the politicized statements of those who are happy to take apart ISKCON and keep trying for unity in diversity. So okay, we do not listen to people from Gaudiya math, but we know they are representing the same thing in a different way (and yes they refer less to Gita for example, all of them).

> There is always infighting between different maths.

And therefore their common disagreement with NM is even more significant.

Common to whom? There have been always infighting between the followers of BR Shridhara and those of BP Keshava Svami. That will go on.

They agree on disagreement with NM. Still not clear? Cant put it simplier.

VEDA again you take hear says and try and present them as conclusions your choice of words is interesting as you change your position from "Oh I heard it from a devotee" to the previous post which is now conclusive without supplying not one quote or reference. So leave out what the GM says without providing some written evidence, you are trying to present yourself as an authority on NM and what the GM think about him, yet clearly you dont associate with any of them. To start with the GM that Bhaktisiddanta left behind, fractured and is mostly independent and different Maths and they are in disagreement about many things, that is not news. But lets have quotes can we? not I heard it on the grapevine because that is certainly not conclusive.

Gaudiya Vaisnava Acharyas are like the different facets on a diamond, each facet has its own unique perspective but they are all a part of the same diamond, B.R. Sridhars Math had a very different mood to Iskcon, they were very studious, simple, humble. It was very different experience spending time in their Navadvip Math to spending time at Iskcon Mayapur, I should know I have spent time in both. Yet they are completely focused on their devotion to Gaura Gadadhar, Nitai, Radha & Krishna, does this mean BR Sridhar was not a successor in the disciplic line?

NM is a successor in the same disciplic line and because he lives after Srila Prabhupada he therefore comes after Srila Prabhupada.

One thing everyone has to realise is that a lot of ex-Iskcon devotees have gone over to NM that were very dissatisfied with Iskcon, some of those devotees have done and still do stupid things (they have their own issues to work through) when in the vicinity of Iskcon temples, like selling NMs books in front of them. This was not an instruction from NM, it was the foolish act of a foolish ex Iskcon devotee/s. So citing incidents like this is similar to saying Prabhupada and his disciples collected guns, because Hansadutta was busted by the police and they found them in his own car, but the truth is Srila Prabhupada could not control the independent whim of a nonsense disciple which is the same for NM.

That file you supplied is a fourteen year old email and its a text based file so no one can be sure of its authenticity (anyone can change it). People, especially Vaisnavas are dynamic not static eg: the relationships change over time, you cannot present a position that is 14 years old, when the current thinking is to reconcile and get the relationship on a level of mutual respect.

My only concern about GBC authorised websites is when someone like you distributes a file directly and not by reference to a file on a GBC website, that is 14 years old and you claim it to be the current thinking of GBC on NM, when clearly it is not. There are more up to date topics about NM on the GBC Authorised websites which states a different position to the stuff you are passing around.

Please accept my humble obeisances Narayanna maharaja and his enthusiastic followers! ....My friendly devotional opponents kula-pavanna and manasi seva...please help us understand to appreciate his mood.....since he is also meant to be our loving siksa guru!
Would anyone think our Srila Prabhupada would approach his ISKCON Society with the following attitude?
That it is a lowlevelkanistha organization and a karma yoga institution.
That Srila Prabhupada would give a lecture, then in extremely bad form ,start to dwell on......... the Evils of the GBC and other ISKCON leaders?Hence in essence he would openly....... start to attack his senior devotees in front of the newest Bhaktas.....who have just arrived in the door
Would he openly attack the new devotees faith in ISKCON itself?Hence possibly destroying their brittle faith in their immediate leaders and fellow devotee association.......I think not!.
Would our Srila Prabhupada do this in a Gaudiya matha temple if asked to preach to their devotees?Start to harass and denigrate that gaudiya matha s management and its guru?......I think not!
Would our Srila Prabhupada then attach himself to several ex-iskcon members.....reinitiate them ,even though their guru is in good standing and then target the congregational members of that gaudiya matha!...I think not!
Then plan his whole six month schedule to visit their members and congregations exclusively.....while vomiting sad ennuendo and vicious personal attacks on the local guru and management team!Would he possibly do this?Manasi seva and kula-pavanna ,what is your opinion?.....I know our Srila Prabhupada never ever did this to his Gaudiya matha godbrothers or their disciples!
So why is Narayanna maharaja doing this to iskcon?............if he is the Spiritual successor of Iskcons Founder-Archarya.......would he not be compassionate,loving,charming,concerned and most of allforgiving to us neophytes?So why is he acting like Iskcons enemy!...Please explain in simple terms prabhus....what is your answers?

Are you answering yourself? You must be very qualified...:( or misinformed...

[quote][cite] sri_govinda_das:[/cite]Please accept my humble obeisances Narayanna maharaja and his enthusiastic followers! ....My friendly devotional opponents kula-pavanna and manasi seva...please help us understand to appreciate his mood.....since he is also meant to be our loving siksa guru!
[/quote]

He does not have to be your siksa guru. That is the beauty of it. Just forgive him what you consider to be his transgressions. I forgave Prabhupada for using dirty money to build temples in Mayapur and Vrindavana even as I still think it was a wrong thing to do. We can be both critical and respectful at the same time.

Yes SGD, Kula-pavana is right, if you are happy with Iskcon that is fine, no argument, we are not trying to convince you to believe or submit to anything, just ease up on the blaspheming of other vaisnavas that you have never met. Even materialistic people know that no matter what anyone tells you about anyone, wait until you meet them and then make up your own mind, that is not even wisdom its just common sense. Most of what you know about NM SGD is cut and pasted from a website, and usually some website that has issue with anyone thats no Pro Iskcon, meet him yourself then determine your feelings.

Manasi-seva and kula-pavanna ...since you have failed again to impress us with your responses ,And since your guru...narayanna maharaja is attempting a Hostile Takeover of Iskcon,are his Narayanna Maharajas actions krishna concious or not?
These Hostile takeover dealings have understandably given rise to serious doubts about Narayanna maharajas motive and positive mood of devotional service concerning iskcon.
Of course Narayanna maharaja is a pure devotee,but the presumption is the Question here! His hostile activities exhibit that certain
driven, obsessive character which is usually the indicator of hidden motivation...hence my personal veiw, that it is the focus on the ISKCON archarya position which has set this certain offensive mood and iskcon reaction in motion .The habitual problem for all previous gaudiya matha guru since the passing of Srila Bhaktisiddanta.

A senior mature Prabhupada disciple who had spent several years with Narayana Maharaja and his followers but became disillusioned. Furnished us with some interesting information.

This devotee reports having directly heard -- this was at Gaura Purnima .... years ago -- Narayana Maharaja vowed to reinitiate the disciples of ISKCON gurus.

According to this witness, Narayana Maharaja voiced the judgment that because Tamal Krishna Goswami and Giriraja Swami, stopped visitng him, and since literally he has been banned........ we tell all our people not to visit him, it is the proof that we are "not bonafide Vaisnavas." ................So this is where this inimical mood to reinitiate their disciples has sprang from!!" His attitude was obviously......, "Ill show them! Ill reinitiate all their disciples!" And that is what he has been doing!.Interesting the Iskcon grapevine!this was also backed up by Narayanna maharajas representatives...posting this similiar argument on VNN WEBSITE ........ Didnt Prabhupada emphasize the importance of his books for us?

Didnt srila Prabhupada, tell us that association with him via his books was better than his personal association? Now, how is a person who has never even bothered to read Prabhupadas books......how can he be considered his siksa disciple? How is he to represent Prabhupada to us?
1. If a guru forbids his disciples from taking instruction from an advanced Vaisnava, the guru, being envious of an advanced Vaisnava, should be rejected by the disciple.

[From Narahari Sakara]



2. Narayana Maharaja is an advanced Vaisnava..........which i have serious doubts with!And since my guru Tamala Krishna goswami started the ball rolling.....that ISKCON gurus forbid their disciples from hear from him! Therefore, the disciples should reject the ISKCON gurus.



Logically, the argument is valid. However Narayanna maharaja is not Qualified in my humble opinion....having listened to him!

Well of course sri-govinda-das knows the heart of Narayana Maharaja. Hes the chief and the guru of a maori tribe. Hes on the winning team. Hes a superior front line dyed in the New Zealand sheep wool ISKCON sankirtana devotee. He is qualified to explain to all of us the inner hidden motives of Narayana Maharaja. Hes way more advanced and realized than Narayana Maharaja which gives him carte blanche to analyze him from head to toe.

And lets not forget what sgd writes above "...that ISKCON gurus forbid their disciples from hear from him! Therefore the disciples should reject the ISKCON gurus."

If you read the above quote from our crazy pal sgd -- not once but several times -- I guarantee that you will feel a burning desire to swig a pint of Jack Daniels and chase it with a quart of mescal. After doing that it just might make some sense.

Well folks ... thats entertainment. Good night and may God bless.

If shrigovinda says one is not qualified, he must be qualified, if shrigovinda says someone is qualified, take it otherwise: we can not trust him, because shrigovinda inapparently is a lier as well.

Its not a hearsay but a statement from a specific devotee on Feb 3 this year.
If you mean official positions Im not aware of any. Such things are usually not out unless necessary. Just as when SP mentioned no names in public lectures.

If you want quotes and debates about differences then read this: http://www.oldchakra.com/mainpages/people/narayanmhrj/index.htm
Theres a link to quotes compilation Understanding NM by Urmila dd.

> NM is a successor in the same disciplic line and because he lives after Srila Prabhupada he therefore comes after Srila Prabhupada.

Did you forget that we speak specifically about successor as acarya of ISKCON?

> yet clearly you dont associate with any of them.

Are you watching over me?

> This was not an instruction from NM, it was the foolish act of a foolish ex Iskcon devotee/s.

Possible but so far inconclusive. If you have any quotes that NM distances himself from these activities, post them.
What about preaching to ISKCONs congregations? Is NM not aware of to whom hes preaching? It doesnt seem so.
Does he do radio, TV and university programs which SP was so fond of? I searched for "narayana maharaja" & university on google an youtube and found only one uni lecture at purebhakti site which is aimed at mainly ISKCON audience (due to starting with "You should know my relationship with your Prabhupada"). He says:

"Now there are no gosalas (cowsheds) because there are no longer any cows, and almost all the preaching centers are going to be closed because there are no students or devotees. ..." (Hes been misinformed.)

"Srila Swami Maharaja was really a sadhu. He preached throughout the entire world and he also sent me to do the same. He told me, "My devotees are in trouble and many problems are coming. They are becoming weak and lifeless; so you should go and help them. ..." (Did he? Its off record.)

http://www.purebhakti.com/teachers/bhakti-discourses-mainmenu-61/22-discourses-2003/311-an-introduction-.html

I also found this lecture: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CXqhj70t7So

Its interesting since NM is correct about the error in Hayagrivas 1972 Macmillan BG 9.32 (mung et al, thats for you), disapproves such book changes (iow, supports JASs return to SPs words), but at the end says that SP was wrong when he wrote about less intelligent women. Although it was a very controversial issue, SP insisted on it. So a follower of SP, what to speak of successor, should ponder _how_ to understand it.

Please write to GBC to get authorized file, compare them and let us know about any tampering.
Position 14 years old is simply position 14 years old. I guess readers are able to take it into consideration. Dont underestimate them, please.

http://radha.tribe.net/thread/17f87341-4f96-492c-be77-9dc76f968e59...this is an article written by Narayanna maharaja....its source is from the Ujjvalla-nilamani.
Which SRILA Bhaktisiddanta Saraswati thakura instructed his direct disciples not to read these three literatures...or become familiar with them!The other texts were the Gita-GOVINDA and the Govinda-lilamrita.Since he was aware of the subtle tendencys to veiw mundane sex-life in a perverted manner....even within his own followers,he instructed all his followers to steer clear of such literatures!
This over intelligence to think Narayanna maharaja knows better,and ineffect disobey the order of the spiritual master, and comment on and introduce such knowledge is extremely displeasing to our PARAM GURU.....Such activities are offensive behaviour by Narayanna maharaja!When you read the posts on the following page ,your are struck by the sahajaism being created,as fresh people off the street ....ask did these things really happen?This is an example of the obvious immense difference between our srila Prabhupada and Narayanna maharaja!Where does AC Bhaktivedanta swami Prabhupada say it is alright to introduce these literatures to neophytes,and have them discussing RASA-LILA, after thirty seconds!!....Manasi-seva....kula-pavanna...NO uttama-adhikare would introduce such bizarre teachings direct to the mundane public!Read these pathetic postings and see what sort of sahajaism is being created by NARAYANNA Maharajas preaching.

Written by: Srila Narayana Maharaja see tribes.tribe.net/gurudeva/
Editorial Advisors: Sripad Madhava Maharaja and Sripad Brajanatha dasa
Translators: Sripad Damodara Maharaja and
Editors: Krsna Kamini dasi and Syamarani dasi
Transcriber: Vasanti dasi ...fromThe Glories of Srimati Lalita Sakhi
topic posted Tue, November 14, 2006 - 10:16 AM by Unsubscribed Share/Save/Bookmark
Advertisement
Lalita-devi was born in the village of Karehla, and later on her father brought her to Uccagaon. Uccagaon is known as the place of her pastimes. There are still many remains of her having lived there, like a rock containing the imprints of her lotus feet. There are also imprints of some small utensils she used when she and the other sakhis fed Lord Krsna, when He would come to visit them. When the sun-rays fall on the imprints of those pots and plates, they glitter and shine. All the sakhis used to play with Krsna and Lalita in Uccagaon, and there are many places there where you can see their footprints to this day.

On the hill there is a slippery rock showing where a specific pastime was enacted in a marriage arena. There, the gopis arranged a special kind of marriage between Lalita and Krsna. This should not be misunderstood as a real marriage, but rather a play marriage, like the marriage that was once enacted between Srimati Radhika and Krsna. This is technically known as a Gandharva marriage. ......read posts
Re: The Glories of Srimati Lalita Sakhi
Mon, November 20, 2006 - 2:53 PM
Tulsi,FIRST POST...
I cannot understand Lalita devis loving moods but this article kept me from being in more maya than I would have been if I didnt just read it. It just goes to show me what a fool I am because I didnt know any of this. Thanks for printing it.
join to post ...SECOND POST...Krishna may prefer to kiss Lalita but I always commisserate in my heart with whoever is in the madness of separation. At least it sounds nice to me. Maybe I am just a little angry too at Lalita for the way she treats Radharani sometimes but you know better than me, I dont even know about Malati and Lalita.... I have only heard a miniscule amount of what they do.THIRD POST We are followers of Lalita and her friends I am fully satisfied with that. I just am attracted to the whole separation thing, including siding with Radharani and seemingly going against Krishna and making Him submit to Radharani and the gopis......FORTH POST Please forgive all my speculation as well. Id like to say a bunch more stuff here, but Im tired of being a sahajiya. I want bhakti......FIFTH POSTLalita embarasses Radharani to bring the Divine Couple closer together sometimes, Im sure Radharani likes it. Only I dont. I want to see Krishna submit to Radharani always, and to her friends the gopis. Does this make me a sahajiya?....ASK narayanna maharaja?

parvati
parvati
offline 4
Re: The Glories of Srimati Lalita Sakhi
Tue, January 2, 2007 - 4:37 PM
I have a question. All of the stories on this tribe...are they real or did you make them up? Im sorry if the question is rude, I dont know how else to ask.
SECOND POSTING..confessions of one person at sight The next time I read a book about Sri Lalita Devi or hear about her I will definately appreciate the story much more now that I know who she is. The problem is, I am such a sahajiya I should not even hear about her or else I will think I can become her follower very cheaply. Why did I read books not by Srila Prabhupada?! Books that turned me into a sahajiya! Someday I will run out of other books to read and then I will be able to read Srila Prabhupadas books again and that will save me. In the meantime I am stuck in the darkest mode of ignorance.
join to post ...the real preaching of Narayanna maharaja!........sahajaism abounds!

[quote][cite] sri_govinda_das:[/cite]Manasi-seva and kula-pavanna ...since you have failed again to impress us with your responses ,And since your guru...narayanna maharaja is attempting a Hostile Takeover of Iskcon,are his Narayanna Maharajas actions krishna concious or not?
[/quote]

Narayana Maharaja has demonstrated very little affinity for taking over brick and mortar temples. He has counselled and helped thousands of devotees deeply frustrated with Iskcon. That is a good thing.
And please use some common sense, he is 89 years old and will not get a chance for any hostile takovers so you can sleep in peace.

OK, lets for a moment stipulate that the Prabhupada-onlyites are correct, and all other Godbrothers of Srila Prabhupada are bogus.

If thats true, then two conclusions follow:

1. Very few people are really fit to practice the process. Only the most arrogant person would claim that if the process failed for Prabhupadas godbrothers (who generally had far better sanskars and way more sukriti than Westerners), it could somehow work for them. Why preach to others that they should take up a process that usually fails?

2. If Srila Bhaktisiddhanta had just one true follower, then it stands to reason that Srila Prabhupada might also have had just one true follower. Of course, the ritviks say that he had ZERO true followers able to carry on his mission in full. But this same "All Prabhupadas godbrothers were bogus" attitude is also at the heart of the various intra-ISKCON rivalries. Among todays generations of ISKCON devotees, there have been quite a few who have believed that their guru alone (whether Gaura Govinda Swami, Kirtanananda Swami, Harikesa Swami, Tamal Krishna Goswami, etc.) is the "real" or "topmost" disciple of Srila Prabhupada, and that all the other godbrothers really ought to have surrendered to the one pure disciple of Srila Prabhupada if they really had any spiritual discrimination.

If this is how ISKCON presents itself, its no wonder that the other branches of Gaudiya Math are growing while ISKCON is hemorrhaging members.

Narayana Maharaja writes:

'93Guru-parampara is included in bhagavata-parampara. Those disciples who are fully following Gurudevas mood and teachings are in the bhagavata-parampara.'94

Narayana Maharaja is prone to place his guru , Bhakti-kesava maharaja a long with Srila Prabhupada .... as both being in the bhagavata parampara,with all of Srila Bhaktisiddhanta'92s disciples who didn'92t fall down ...are also members of the bhagavata parampara. However our Srila Prabhupada went so far as to call many of his Godbrothers useless, and certainly indicated that he did not accept them as being in the bhagavata-parampara.
However this is definitely a major point of difference,which illustrates how different and dis-similar they are! Our Prabhupada made statements,that his godbrothers became useless because they disobeyed the order of their guru to form a GBC '96 not only in letters and conversations, but right in the purports of his Srimad bhagavatam and chaitanya caritamrita .Such MAJOR distinguishing points of difference. make Narayanna maharajas many claims of being Srila Prabhupadas spiritual successor....his siksa guru, simply incompatable..and erroneous!.

This means that Srila Prabhupada did not place these Godbrothers in the same category as Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati and all the others who Srila Prabhupada listed in the bhagavata parampara. Narayana Maharaja, on the other hand, is not clear about which one of his Spiritual Master'92s Godbrothers should and should not be included in the bhagavata parampara.Are such doubts sublime and transcendental?Are these these thoughts in line with our Srila Prabhupadas mood?I would suggest not!

SGD, Srila Prabhupada personally asked for forgiveness for all of his criticisms of his god brothers on his deathbed which means he took it all back, which means idiots like you are simply blaspheming Srila Prabhupadas god brothers who are eternal associates of Bhaktisiddanta Maharaja, what fate awaits you Krishna only knows.

You know people like you are doing a great service to Iskcon, stay there please, Iskcon is your place it suits your style. The more I hear your rantings the more I think Iskcon is a lost cause.

By the way Hostile Takeovers is a term most often used in the corporate world.

SGD you are the most moronic fool I have ever had the dis-pleasure of meeting in a devotional forum, every day you bury yourself deeper in a dark well of blaspheming so many great Vaisnavas who you have never met, you really take the cake. You are supposed to be a Maori tribe leader, when in fact you couldnt lead your way out of a wet paper bag!

A Tribe leader should demonstrate, deep thinking, patience and wisdom, well I guess you are like a cast goswami...you were born into it not chosen, so its not your fault. But you should try taking a step back and looking at your approach.

Narayana Maharaja being the consumate sweet speaker profusely avoids discussing the signifigant differences between himself and Srila Prabhupada. In fact.... no difference is apparent from his vision, that he and Srila Prabhupada were in sync on all major points.
However despite such sweet words,Our Srila PRABHUPADA was adament and intense in his criticism of his Godbrothers for not following the mood of the bhagavata parampara,Which was the special legacy of Srila Bhaktisiddanta saraswati Thakura. Narayana Maharaja offers his vision , the '93siddhanta, behaviour and moods'94,as an interesting diplomatic offering concerning ,such goings on!
This seemingly widespread intention to dis-obey their gurus instructions was the reason Srila Prabhupada refused to accept they were legitimately included in our illustrious and unique bhagavata parampara.
Hence because Narayanna maharaja failed to appreciate or infuse Our param gurus particular flavour of preaching personally within his heart.
It is my submission that he is outside our single pointed Bhaktivedanta-iskcon line,because he has not surrendered his personal ideas and mood to his supposed siksa guru ...Srila PRABHUPADA.
Which would also explain his singular inability to understand that preaching from the Ujjvalla-nilamani,gita govinda and the Govinda-lillamrita ,is definitely a vaisnava taboo and disobeying the clear instruction and mission of Srila Bhaktisiddanta Saraswati Thakura.His view was these sacred texts allow a certain immature appreciation of Rasa lila to possibly appear!Which might be mistaken and allow sahaja-ism to infiltrate his preaching mission as a result....
On a personal note Manasi seva ....Narayanna maharaja has attacked our sacred gurus teachings ,and his Iskcon society....which i find very offensive!
It is infact the duty of every disciple is to protect the guru.Srila Bhaktivinoda thakura describes this in a letter to his diksa guru Viphina bihari goswami.Which includes his[our Srila Prabhupadas ] reputation which Narayanna maharaja foolishly is unable to properly appreciate ,since he has brutally attacked his preaching legacy on many occasions and by casting baseless innuendos at inexperienced iskcon devotees publically, has in effect attacked their faith in our Founder-Archarya himself.

Do some research on ISKCON history. Those sannyasis who have been most keen on attacking Sripad B.P. Kesava Maharaja and Sripad B.R. Sridhar Maharaja have almost without exception suffered very severe and public falldowns from their sannyasa asrama. This is not surprising, because if these two Godbrothers of Prabhupada were bogus, then Prabhupadas sannyasa (awarded by Kesava Maharaja, the sannyasa-disciple of Sridhar Maharaja) was bogus, and the offender-sannyasis are implicating themselves as bogus.

Are you saying that Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvatiji Thakur had ever at length discussed his differences with his father or his brother? Are you suggesting we should write books on reasons why Shrila Prabhupada introduced harmonium, brahmacarinis and western sannyasin orders. It is foolish of you to discard shiksa guru of your Shrila Gurudeva as sahajiya.

I agree with just about everything you wrote, Tattva das --- but as for "why preach to others that they should take up a process that usually fails?"

When I read that the Bhagavad-gita verse (2.40) came to mind:

"In this endeavor there is no loss or diminution, and a little advancement on this path can protect one from the most dangerous type of fear."

Anyway - I just have that one side comment but again -- you present a cogent and sensible argument.and the saying "ISKCON is hemorrhaging members" is certainly very original. I like it. Can I use it?

All those inter-matha conflicts, frictions, and disagreements are a direct result of guru-centrism which has dominated the Sarasvata branch of Lord Caitanyas tree. Thinking that: "only my guru is right" certainly has consequences. Preaching that Sri Guru is one is almost nonexistent. The belief in "my gurus words are better than shastra" has become standard in some circles. Of course there will be all kinds of disagreements and no resolution, especially after the gurus pass on.

From a speech given by Srila Prabhupada to the Bombay branch of Gaudiya Math, 1935, on the appearance day of Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakur:

"Gentlemen, the offerings of such a homage as has been arranged this evening to the Acharyadeva is not a sectarian concern, because when we speak of the fundamental principle of Gurudeva or Acharyadeva, we speak of something that is of universal application. There does not arise any question of discriminating my Guru from that of yours or of any one elses. There is only one Guru who appears in an infinity of forms to teach you, me and all others. The Guru or Acharyadeva, as we learn from the bonafide scriptures, delivers the message of the absolute world, I mean the transcendental abode of the Absolute Personality where everything non-differentially serves the Absolute Truth. We have heard so many times that mahajana yena gatah sa pantha (Traverse the trail which your previous acharya has passed.), but we have hardly tried to understand the real purport of this sloka, and if we scrutinously study this proposition we understand that mahajana is one, and the royal road to the transcendental world is also one."

A letter from RAVINDRA SWARUPA DAS
In 1990 I was persuaded by some who were then taking siksa from
Narayana Maharaja to visit him. In the course of our discussion, the
invocation of Sri Isopanisad somehow came up, and I rendered the meaning
and purport the way it was presented by Srila Prabhupada, mentioning that
this world (idam), as an emanation from the purnam, is also purnam.

Narayana Maharaja immediately cut me off, and pronounced (in quite an
ex cathedra manner) that I understood the text incorrectly. "No!" he said.
"The material world is not purnam." Idam did not refer to this material
world, which cannot be purnam. Rather, he said, idam refers to Visnu-
tattva expansions like Balarama. They are purnam.

I was a bit shocked. Here I was Prabhupadas disciple, yet he was
telling me Prabhupada was in error in his books. Of course, I understood
at once that Narayana Maharaja had to be ignorant of Prabhupadas books.
He had not been enlightened by Prabhupadas brilliant account of just what
it meant for this material world to be realized as a complete whole.

(It seemed weird to give an interpretation that ignored the context
of
the invocation, and to ignore the fact that everywhere in the Upanisads
and the Bhagavatam idam is conventionally used to stand for this
world; and how strange it is to use a neuter singular pronoun to refer
to Balarama and other expansions. To give him the benefit of the doubt,
I assume he had some authority for his gloss of the sruti mantra. At any
rate, Prabhupadas understanding is clearly far more profound. I actually
felt sorry for Narayana Maharaja that he had not received the benefit of
Prabhupadas teaching.)

Although during our meeting Narayana Maharaja showed himself skillful
at managing status relations, adroit in assuming the role of the teacher
and putting me in the position of a pupil, he blew it (as far as I was
concerned), and I decided to keep my distance. I had premonitions of
trouble.

When, a few years later, it became known that Narayana Maharaja
was claiming to be Prabhupadas (first, senior-most) disciple, and even
his designated successor and therefore our own authorized siksa guru,
I remember our 1990 meeting, and I could not accept this claim at all.
a letter from RAVINDRA SWARUPA DAS..... Didnt Prabhupada emphasize the importance of his books for us?
Didnt
he tell us that association with him via his books was better than his
personal association? Now, how is a person who has never even bothered to
read Prabhupadas books to be considered his siksa disciple? How is he to
represent Prabhupada to us?

Ive been told that the claim Narayana Maharaja makes for himself has
inflated over time. At first, he seemed to present himself simply as a
friend, a benign siksa guru. By now, however, he has announced himself as
the successor-acarya to Prabhupada, the authorized acarya of ISKCON. And
he tells the disciples of Prabhupada, "I know your guru better than you
do!" And one-time followers of Prabhupada, like Yadurani dasi, proclaim
the obvious conclusion: "We cant know Prabhupada unless we go through
Narayana Maharaja!"

(She says, "Only an uttama adhikari can understand an uttama
adhikari," which does make one wonder how she is supposed to be able to
understand Narayana Maharaja.....)

LETTER FROM RAVINDRA SWARUPA...continued
Two years ago, Lokanatha Swami brought ISKCONs parikrama party to
Kesavji Gaudiya Math in Mathura, where Narayana Maharaja addressed them.
It became quite emotional. He said that he used to "lie under the Tamal
tree" and to "rest his head in the lap of Giriraja." He said that even
Lokanatha Swami used to be his friend. But all of them left him. They
deserted him.

And then, when the parikrama party had left, Narayana Maharaja turned
to his disciples and said, "Not one of these is a true follower of Srila
Prabhupada! I am the only true follower of Srila Prabhupada!" Other
witnesses have head him voice the same idea still more recently:
"I am the successor to Srila Prabhupada," he says. Even: "I am ISKCON."

I find it strange indeed that Prabhupada, who was so careful to
explain things to us, revealed nothing of this occult plan for succession.
It seems he transmitted it, in private code, to Narayana Maharaja. For
example, Narayana Maharaja explains that Prabhupadas statement that
Narayana Maharaja could show Prabhupadas disciples how to put their
spiritual master in his samadhi, has an esoteric meaning. To us, it may
have seemed that Prabhupada was speaking about funeral services, but
it is revealed to Narayana Maharaja the deep meaning: that samadhi is
Prabhupadas eternal absorption and participation in Radha-Krishna lila,
and so on. (Well, "only an uttama-adhikari can understand an uttama
adhikari.")

These so-called "instructions" are cited to establish Narayana
Maharajas authority over us. In fact they will be persuasive only to
those who have already accepted his authority, and so believe in the
validity of his personal "realizations" about Prabhupadas intentions.
On his authority you accept that this statement of Prabhupada (and maybe
every statement?) bears an esoteric meaning in addition to an exoteric
one, and you accept Narayana Maharaja as the authoritative interpreter of
that esoteric meaning.

I fear we are being lead down the primrose path of deviation. If we
were to accept Narayana Maharajas claims, we would be disregarding
Prabhupadas explicit directions to us, and, in so doing, reenacting the
error of the Gaudiya Matha in disobeying the orders of its founder-acarya.
While Prabhupadas alleged directions to Narayana Maharaja are known only
to him and depend upon our accepting his authority as an explicator of
Prabhupada to us, Prabhupadas instructions to us are clear and open and
direct, and he has warned us of the folly of deviating from them:

"Why this Gaudiya Matha failed? Because they tried to become
more than guru. He, before passing away, he gave all direction and
never said that This man should be the next acarya. But these
people, just after his passing away they began to fight, who
shall be acarya. That is the failure.

"They never thought, Why, Guru Maharaja gave us instruction
[on] so many things, why he did not say that this man should be
acarya? They wanted to create artificially somebody [as] acarya
and everything failed.

"They did not consider even with common sense that if Guru
Maharaja wanted to appoint somebody as acarya, why did he not
say? He said so many things, and this point he missed? The real
point? And they insist upon it.

"They declared some unfit person to become acarya. Then
another man came, then another, acarya, another acarya. So better
remain a foolish person perpetually to be directed by Guru
Maharaja. That is perfection."
[Room conversation, Bombay: August 16, 1976]

As Prabhupadas disciple, do you wonder what it would be like to
stand
before him and explain why you promoted Narayana Maharaja as ISKCONs next
acarya? And on whose authority? Well, as it turns out on inspection,
strictly on Narayana Maharajas. Because you blindly believe Narayana
Maharaja when he proclaims, "I understand your Guru Maharaja better than
you do."

This is my doubt: That my god-brothers and -sisters who are following
Narayana Maharaja are doing so blindly, and they have been beguiled into
accepting a pretender.

maah! that is one of the most stupid examples I have ever heard, who are you to start judging who is connected to the supreme Lord and who is not. Your lack of humility and Vaisnava qualities betray you and proves you wouldnt have a clue!

[quote][cite] portnoy:[/cite]From a speech given by Srila Prabhupada to the Bombay branch of Gaudiya Math, 1935, on the appearance day of Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakur:

"Gentlemen, the offerings of such a homage as has been arranged this evening to the Acharyadeva is not a sectarian concern, because when we speak of the fundamental principle of Gurudeva or Acharyadeva, we speak of something that is of universal application. There does not arise any question of discriminating my Guru from that of yours or of any one elses. There is only one Guru who appears in an infinity of forms to teach you, me and all others. The Guru or Acharyadeva, as we learn from the bonafide scriptures, delivers the message of the absolute world, I mean the transcendental abode of the Absolute Personality where everything non-differentially serves the Absolute Truth. We have heard so many times that mahajana yena gatah sa pantha (Traverse the trail which your previous acharya has passed.), but we have hardly tried to understand the real purport of this sloka, and if we scrutinously study this proposition we understand that mahajana is one, and the royal road to the transcendental world is also one."[/quote]

Yes, that is just about the only such quote you can find in the writings of SP... from 1935...

more:

The Vedas enjoin us to seek out a guru; actually, they say to seek out the guru, not just a guru. The guru is one because he comes in disciplic succession. What Vyasadeva and Krsna taught five thousand years ago is also being taught now. There is no difference between the two instructions. ...The guru may be this person or that, but the message is the same; therefore it is said that guru is one. (SSR 2a)

Guru means the representative of God. As God is one, similarly, guru is also one. There cannot be different gurus. Because God is one, how there can be different gurus? The principle of guru is one. (arrival lecture, SF 15 July 1975)

All glories to Srila Prabhupada!

Thank you Veda prabhu for those important quotes from SF 15 July 1975.

As theologists differ on which form of God they concentrate on: God the Father (personal) or God who is Everywhere (impersonal), so ISKCON establishes the personality of God and the personality of Sri Guru in His blessed form of His Divine Grace A C Bhaktivedanta Swami Srila Prabhupada; and before that Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakur, up and up to the Adi Guru, the Personality of Sri Krishna Himself (Sri Guru Parampara) whereas the other maths use the quote of Kula-pavana prabhu to claim that we should not discriminate against their guru since: "There is only one Guru who appears in an infinity of forms to teach you, me and all others." They are in one sense right, as the Lord is within a parent who fulfills the role of the first guru, as a teacher does also, as kanishta gurus do, and we are also right in keeping to Sri Guru Srila Prabhupada. But one is higher than the other and obtains a different result as Sri Krishna explains in Chapter 9 of Srimad Bhagavad Gita As It Is.

Srimad Bhagavad Gita As It Is Chapter 9, Verse 4.
"By Me, in My unmanifested form, this entire universe is pervaded. All beings are in Me, but I am not in them."
Sri Guru pervades everything but He is not in everyone. When He choses, He takes a form He choses.

Chapter 9, Verse 5.
And yet everything that is created does not rest in Me. Behold My mystic opulence! Although I am the maintainer of all living entities, and although I am everywhere, still My Self is the very source of creation.
"He maintains His own identity separately."

Chapter 9, Verse 11.
"Fools deride Me when I descend in the human form. They do not know My transcendental nature and My supreme dominion over all that be." When His own, separate identity assumes the form of the Sri Guru Acarya, Sri Krishna says fools consider Him to be an ordinary guru, on the same level as theirs.

Sri Krishna next makes a very decisive statement, referring to what He has just spoken:
Chapter 9, Verse 12.
"Those who are thus bewildered are attracted by demonic and atheistic views. In that deluded condition, their hopes for liberation, their fruitive activities, and their culture of knowledge are all defeated."

Srimad Bhagavad Gita As It Is Chapter 9, Verse 13.
"O son of Prtha, those who are not deluded, the great souls, are under the protection of the divine nature. They are fully engaged in devotional service because they know Me as the Supreme Personality of Godhead, original and inexhaustible."
Chapter 9, Verse 14.
"Always chanting My glories, endeavoring with great determination, bowing down before Me, these great souls perpetually worship Me with devotion."

Sri Isopanishad Verse 13
"It is said that one result is obtained by worshiping the supreme cause of all causes and that another result is obtained by worshiping what is not supreme. All this is heard from the undisturbed authorities, who clearly explained it."

Wanting the result of worshipping what is supreme, they bow down before the authorized Sri Guru Acarya, Srila Prabhupada, serve His mission and worship Him with prayers.
Chapter 9, Verse 15.
"Others, who are engaged in the cultivation of knowledge, worship the Supreme Lord as the one without a second, diverse in many, and in the universal form."

The Sri Guru Acarya is before them in His Sri Murthi form, His Books, His instructions, His society, His sound, His photos, His servants, He is also within their hearts, He hears their prayers to Him and mantras dedicated to Him, but they want to worship the impersonal energy of the Lord spread all over, found in a form they like.
That is like avoiding worship of Sri Archa Vigraha-Lords form in the Temples, claiming that due to Gods All-omnipresent Greatness He cannot have a form, or worshipping rocks because it is after all, also Gods energy, and avoiding worship of the Sri Vigraha because they consider it "limiting" or "equal" or "bogus"; they actually accuse Srila Prabhupadas loyal followers of being sectarian! anti-family, anti-friendly and in the wrong! We should not be fooled.

Hare Krishna

It seems from our Srila Prabhupada that it is possibly a general mentality amongst his godbrothers...this Profit,adoration and distinction mentality.....read this 8-6-74...letter to achyutananda
You should not write anything to Madhava Maharaja'92s camp. You may have talked many things with Mangala Niloy but why write him in black and white. The letter must not be sent.
THEIR POLICY HAS BEEN ALL ALONG TO SUPPRESS ME AND TAKE CREDIT FOR HIMSELF. THEIR PROPOSAL FOR COOPERATION IS A MYTH. THEY HAVEN'92T DONE ANYTHING WHICH IS COOPERATIVE. YOU KNOW IN A RECENT ARTICLE THEY MANAGED TO WRITE IN SUCH A WAY THAT MADHAVA IS DOING THE WORLD MOVEMENT AND WE ARE HIS SUBORDINATE.
FROM THE BEGINNING THAT HAS BEEN THEIR MENTALITY. SO THERE IS NO POSSIBILITY OF COOPERATION WITH THEM. RATHER YOU SHOULD AVOID STRICTLY MEETING WITH THEM. THEY ARE NOT AFTER PREACHING BUT MATERIAL GAIN AND REPUTATION AND ADORATION. OTHERWISE WHY THEY ARE NON COOPERATING WITH ME? SO NO COOPERATION IS POSSIBLE.
Do not think or indulge in loose talks. Be careful always. Let us do the duty of propagation sincerely and seriously on our own principles. Krsna and Srila Prabhupada Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura are our only hope and they and helping us. If anything thing has to be done it is to be talked on the higher level between Madhava Maharaja and myself, but I know his mentality is different and there is no possibility of cooperation.
68-02-17. Letter: Pradyumna
Regarding the book list: '93Lord Gauranga'94 by S.K. Ghose and Veder Panchaya by Bon Maharaja ARE USELESS and you may not get them.

The world goes in swings and roundabouts, when Srila Prabhupada was on the planet he was carrying the Gaudiya Vaisvana flame, no question. Now that hes gone, no one it seems has stepped up to the mark, the high mark. All we have are rubber stamped officials.

The Spiritual flame of Gaudiya Vaisnavism is not limited to physical institutions, it comes through a living breathing acharya, just as the flame appeared to jump from GM to Iskcon when Srila Prabhupada went to the west, it could also show up again in the GM or the Maths that were born out of the GM, if it wasnt limited to a particular institution before then the same applies now.

Srila Prabhupada did not condemn the GM and his god brothers for all eternity, he was criticising the way some of them were behaving at the time, and he even asked for forgiveness for saying that. When Srila Prabhupada asked for a number of items to be packaged and sent to America none of his god brothers complied, except one, Narayan Maharaja. He was very close to Narayan Maharaja, the many letters that prove this are available for download for all to see.

Srila Prabhupada Lilamrita:
"Devotees worried, speculating on whether they could carry on without Swamiji. (When Prabhupada became very ill.) One devotee suggested that perhaps one of Swamijis Godbrothers should come to America and fill in for Swamiji and, if the worst happened, take over the leadership of the International Society for Krishna Consciousness. When the suggestion reached Prabhupada, he considered it without immediately replying. Mukunda: I was sitting alone with Swamiji in his room, and he was very grave and silent. His eyes were closed. Then, suddenly, tears began flowing from his eyes. And he said in a choked voice, "My spiritual master was no ordinary spiritual master." Then he paused for some time, and wiping the tears from his cheeks, he said in an even more choked voice, "He saved me." At that point I began to understand the meaning of "spiritual master" and dropped all consideration of ever replacing Swamiji.
After two days Prabhupada said he would not call any of his Godbrothers to come and take care of his disciples. He said, "If this person speaks just one word different from what I am speaking, there will be great confusion among you." Actually, he said, the idea was an insult to the spiritual master....

[quote][cite] sri_govinda_das:[/cite]After two days Prabhupada said he would not call any of his Godbrothers to come and take care of his disciples. He said, "If this person speaks just one word different from what I am speaking, there will be great confusion among you." Actually, he said, the idea was an insult to the spiritual master....[/quote]

Still, right before his passing, SP requested Sridhara Maharaja to become the president of Iskcon. SM declined, perhaps not willing to be burdened with the unruly disciples of SP. For a neophyte devotee the medicine of one guru is recommended. For a mature devotee the medicine of guru is one is recommended.

B.R. Sridhar Maharaja was a pure devotee, he was handed the keys to a kingdom (Iskcon Institution) and turned them down, now thats funny I am sure SGD has mentioned on about 50 occasions how all of Srila Prabupadas god brothers simply wanted to be the next acharya and were useless, again we find example after example that proves SGD wrong.

After two days Prabhupada said he would not call any of his Godbrothers to come and take care of his disciples. He said, "If this person speaks just one word different from what I am speaking, there will be great confusion among you." Actually, he said, the idea was an insult to the spiritual master....
A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada, Letter to: Satsvarupa -- Los Angeles 16 June, 1972:
"I have given you everything, so read and speak from the books and so many new lights will come out. We have got so many books, so if we go on preaching from them for the next 1,000 years, there is enough stock."
A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada, Letter to: Dina Dayala, Mayapur 25 February, 1976:
"I have instructed everything in my books."

A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada, Letter to: Nitai -- New York 14 July, 1976:
"I have received reports that you have been developing the habit of going outside the temple to hear lectures by others outside like Nrsimhavallabha. Strictly nobody should go outside to hear lectures by others. If you are not satisfied by the calibre of the classes at the Krishna Balarama Mandir, then you should give another class, but you cannot go outside for hearing others lectures. Kindly stop this habit immediately."......
.So our Srila Prabhupada was extremely keen to persuade his followers to stick exclusively to his mood and vision because it was pure!He was always asking his followers not to change the intrinsic nature of his Demons and devotee preaching style and particular style i would humbly suggest to you!........
However now compare this to what Narayanna maharaja expounds...................

Narayana Maharaja: So I want to say that your Prabhupada has given these things...only these things...and not beyond these things. Then he was only the servant of Mahavisnu, not of Krishna. .......
"You are so qualified...and here is something higher" - Narayana Maharaja10 Nov. 1991 Vrindavana:
"So you should not be satisfied what you have got from him at that time.... Without Raganuga Bhakti, Bhakti is not completed. So I think that you should try to enter in this raganuga Bhakti realm and you are so much qualified."
Narayana Maharaja Confidential Secrets of Bhajana, page 12:
"We may think that we are engaged in so much devotional service and so much preaching work, but we must be careful. If we are not trying to do bhajana, if we are not trying to enter into the realm of real bhakti, then all of these activities are karmanga. They are actually material activities."......So narayanna maharajas teaching are very signifigantly different to our Srila Prabhupadas.....and extremely different to those offered by other Gaudiya matha temples .He has taken from outside the line of Srila Bhaktisiddanta sraswati thakura Prabhupada.....!He has introduced a certain new flavour coming from possibly Radha kunda babajis.....

[quote][cite] Kula-pavana:[/cite]Narayana Maharaja took sannyasa 4 years before Srila Prabhupada did. He is 87 years old now and has been a sannyasi for 57 years. None of his disciples became sahajiyas. These are FACTS.
If anybody is qualified to explain madhurya rasa, it is Narayana Maharaja. He has every right to do what he does.[/quote]

Nonsense speculation Kula prabhu. Only a rare liberated soul Prema-Bhakta is qualfied in Madhurya-rasa.
NM taking sannyasa before SP doesnt mean jack.

U have very poor vision. Most unfortunate!

Please reform!

God help us all!

Thanks.

Ysvt.

Happy Gaura-Purneem to one and all!

The difference is BSST and SP are liberated Acaryas not conditioned acaryas.

Such a great soul is very rare.

SP is not a typical Guru and I am not a typical demon.

Ysvt.

Former prominent follower of Narayana Maharaja:
"The Vilap Kusumanjali lectures Narayana Maharaja gave during 1991-1993 were more or less based on the commentaries of Sri Ananda Gopal Gosvami and Sri Ananta Dasa Babaji. Particularly some of the asta-kaliya-lilas related by the former were of his own realization. And moreIn terms of the Gaudiya Math, the former would be classified as a caste Gosvamin and the latter as a sahajiya Babaji. Nevertheless Narayana Maharaja plagiarized their works and let people believe he expressed his own realizations.over, now he boycotts the very same persons, Ananta das Babas, works directly on his lectures. The translator and publisher of Ananta das Babas works in English, Advaitadas, is a grand-disciple of Ananda Gopal Gosvamin. For all documents I have seen, Narayana Maharaja has not directly criticized Ananda Gopal Gosvamin, but he would certainly not be accepted by the orthodox followers of the Gaudiya Math.
So one must boldly ask,why is Narayanna maharaja assimulating and preaching from a caste Brahmana and asahaja babaji source?Historically these are the people whom it would be fair to say attempted to bribe the police to kill SRILA bHAKTISIDDANTA SARASWATI THAKURA!What is wrong with following the conclusions of OUR PARAMPARA,with the books of our Srila Prabhupadas!
Why has Narayanna maharajua been influenced to allow this nonsense to pollute his gurus and our pure teachings?

"One of many examples: Vilapa Kusumanjali verse 31 -- Narayana Maharaja says on September 21, 1994:
"In the meantime the anklet of one foot came out and went away. Tulasi noticed that the sound of vamsi had also become less and Srimati Radhika stopped to dance and everything was upset. Tulasi ran towards the anklet, but in the meantime Krsna came and took it. He bound it on the feet of Srimati Radhika, and again the dancing and all things were done as before. Tulasi Manjari remembered this and began to tell to Radhika, "O You remember when Rasa was going on and this happened? Krsna took the anklet Himself and He tighten it on Your feet and again You began to dance.
"Such pastimes i am not qualified to comment upon.However it is obvious that this is the sort of pastime NARAYANNA MAHARAJA is encouraging his devotees to meditate on.Which is definitely in conflict with our Prabhupadas ....Srila AC Bhaktivedanta swami Prabhupada mood and teachings in my opinion

Hence i would naturally suggest that this philosophical deviation is evident in comparing the different conclusions......made by Narayanna maharaja compared to our Prabhupadas clear and different conclusions.Which in essence is illustrated by these examples breifly and very precisely!

Narayana Maharaja Confidential Secrets of Bhajana, page 22:
"Every-thing is there, but dont think that we can realize all this by chanting Krishna-nama alone. We must chant nama-mantra (gayatri) as well, if we want full understanding and realization of what is in the

How a devotee achieves perfection Narayana Maharaja, Bhakti-rasayana chapter six:
"If after hearing these verses (about Krishna and the gopis) one doesnt meditate on them, then at the time of taking harinama his mind will certainly be absorbed in thoughts of material enjoyment. While chanting his mind will be unsteady, and remembrance of events from the life he led before he began to follow the path of bhakti will awaken inside him. Various kinds of sankalpaand vikalpa, attraction and repulsion to material objects will come to his mind, and he wont receive the full benefit from this nectar-tonic. But if someone meditates on these verses while taking harinama, then his bhakti will surely increase. This is the method for increasing ones bhakti." Hare Krishna mantra."

A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada Room Conversation with Sanskrit Professor - August 13, 1973, Paris:
"Chanting Hare Krishna maha-mantra. Then, as he practices, becomes more purified, then second initiation. Gayatri. Gayatri-mantra. But the first initiation, according to Jiva Gosvami, that is sufficient. Chanting Hare Krishna mantra, that is sufficient. But still, to purify them more, the second initiation, Gayatri, is given."

Srila Sridhar Maharaj (Gaudiya Math) Sri Guru and His Grace:
"We accept the mantra only to help the nama-bhajan, the worship of the holy name. Otherwise it may not be necessary at all. It has been judged in such a way. The name alone can do everything for a person. It is full and complete. The (gayatri) mantra helps us to do away with the aparadhas, offenses, and the abhasa, or hazy conception. The (gayatri) mantra comes to help us only so far."

Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura, Prabhupader Patravali, Chapter 1:
"There is no point in making a separate effort to artificially remember the Lords form, qualities and pastimes. The Lord and His name are one and the same. This will be understood clearly when the coverings in our hearts are removed. By chanting without offenses you will personally realize that all perfections come from the Holy Name."

Kesari Sri Srimad Bhakti Prajnana Kesava Gosvami (diksa guru of Narayana Maharaja) - His life and Teachings, Part 4, P.343:
"One day a devotee was studying the commentaries on rasa-lila, brahmara-gita and so on, and Srila Gurudeva [Bhaktisiddhanta] said, The qualification to hear topics such as rasa-lila will come when sri nama-kirtana has freed the heart from anarthas, and suddha-sattva has appeared there."

So it is indeed obvious to us that Narayanna maharaja has concocted and deviated from the teachings of Srila AC Bhaktivedanta swami Prabhupada,Srila Bhaktisiddanta saraswati thakura Prabhupada,Srila Jiva goswami Prabhupada and his divine grace BR Shridhar goswami our revered siksa guru as a consequence of taking unauthorised siksa from these persons outside our line........Sri Ananda Gopal Gosvami and Sri Ananta Dasa Babaji.the former would be classified as a caste Gosvamin and the latter as a sahajiya Babaji.But the question must be asked what other sahaja-ism has seapted in.....especially since he is disloyal to his gurus

Its one thing to express your opinion that Narayana Maharajas teachings are not in line with what you understand and accept as bona fide and authorized --- but it might not be a good idea to attack his character and motives. When you criticize like that you bring it down to a personal level and that all too often turns a philosophical debate into a mud slinging contest. No good can come of it. Its better to discuss the issue on a higher philosophical level .. wouldnt you agree, sir?

Thank you ......Hashama ............
I would suggest that if you read this particular quote from his own GURU............ Kesari Sri Srimad Bhakti Prajnana Kesava Gosvami (diksa guru of Narayana Maharaja) - His life and Teachings, Part 4, P.343:
"One day a devotee was studying the commentaries on rasa-lila, brahmara-gita and so on, and Srila Gurudeva [Bhaktisiddhanta] said, The qualification to hear topics such as rasa-lila will come when sri nama-kirtana has freed the heart from anarthas, and suddha-sattva has appeared there."
That Narayanna maharajas philosophy,that he is preaching is completely in disagreement with his own gurus understanding and hence is deemed useless....and he is possibly unknowingly personally displaying to others that he......is more intelligent than his own guru!
Such a mentality is considered offensive in learned VAISNAVA association !
How was that hashama..........more impersonal ........ Ideally what you are saying would be correct......however in extreme moments of battle even krishna became extremely personal!.....but thank you for genuine siksa from the supersoul!

Well -- from my readings through archives of letters written by Srila Prabhupada to his disciples -- it seems to me that he was not pleased when one of them took it upon themselves to speak or write in an insulting manner about any of his godbrothers -- or anybody from Gaudiya Math. He said, "I can criticize but you cannot." Besides, what is to be gained by saying derogatory things about him personally when it is his interpretation and preaching of Krishna consciousness that you disagree with? I think you are lessening the impact of your message (which I assume is that one should not take up the association nor even hear from nor read the books of Narayana Maharaja) by adding personal attacks. You say that its alright for you to do because you are engaged in a battle of some sort.

You began your last post by trying to convince me that Narayana Maharaja is not a qualified preacher and once again --- that is not the issue I am addressing so you can leave out any and all such quotes of that kind in this discussion. My only question to you is why do you feel it necessary to attack his character when Srila Prabhupada, to whom you pledge your allegiance and loyalty, said not to? Just answer that question, please.

Hashama, personally I dont agree with attacks on NM. The question Does NMs message differ greatly from that of SPs was answered: -yes-. Now everyone can decide what to do with this conclusion. The issue ends for me here.

What follows is but a partial sampling of devotees who were initiated by ISKCON gurus in good standing but who have rejected their ISKCON guru and instead taken shelter of Srila Narayana Maharaja. Several of these devotees have personally informed their ISKCON guru that they have left him and have clearly stated that they have now taken re-initiation from Srila Narayana Maharaja:

Gopal Krishna Maharaja: Parasurama dasa, Parasara Muni dasa, Ramacandra dasa, Pavana dasa
Jayapataka Swami: Vicitra Vasini dasi
Satsvarupa Maharaja: Navadvipa dasa, Narmada dasi, Jagannatha Krishna dasa
Indradyumna Maharaja: Abhaya Mudra dasi
Tamal Krishna Maharaja: RadhasTami dasa
Krishna dasa Swami: Ayodhyapati dasa
Bir Krishna Goswami: Bhakti lata dd
Madhusevita das: Keli-parayana das, Mahalakshmi d.d., Gaura-pournima d.d.
Vipramukhya Swami: Syamananda dasa

A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada, March 1968, letter to Hrsikesha:
"I am greatly surprised for Bon Maharajas initiating you in spite of his knowing that you are already initiated by me. So it is deliberate transgression of Vaisnava etiquette and otherwise a deliberate insult to me.
I do not know why he has done like this but no Vaisnava will approve of this offensive action.
Firstly narayanna maharaja is not wellwisher of ISKCON or our Founder -Archarya ...Srila AC Bhaktivedanta swami PRABHUPADA.It is not just his interpretation it is his extremely offensive personal behaviour!I will step up to the plate to attempt to offer guidance in such matters,when it seems that injustice and cheating behaviour are being masqueraded as raganuga bhakti.
Narayanna maharajas pathetic attacks on srila Prabhupadas preaching legacy ,his attempts to mix sahaja-ism with our vaisnava culture,his policy to re-initiate all in sundry ....even though their guru is not fallen.
Even to go to ones wife ,and initiate her.....while the husband is away.....in his selfish attempts to swallow more followers,without asking the permission of the husband.....which i know has caused the split of several devotee families!
What sort of sanyasis is this?
To disobey the strict orders of Srila Bhaktisiddanta saraswati thakura...not to read such literatures...like ujjvalla nilamani ,govinda lillamrita...ect because they tend to encourage sahaja-ism amongst neophyte devotees.Then to foolishly encourage young neophyte devotees to meditate on divine Rasa lila ....well i could go on....but as you say i it is nothing personal prabhu!......He is not our well-wisher!Nor is he our guru.....or even siksa guru!....Which is openly displayed by our ISKCON FOUNDER -ARCHARYAS instructions above!!

Veda -- Im new here but Ive been reading through several of the threads and topics and have noticed that rarely does a question get answered and the issue ends there. For you perhaps because you seem to be, for the most part, very objective. Your approach is not the norm -- its the exception. Emotions seem to run high around here, especially when it comes to topics concerning this guru and that guru, this organization or that, this camp or that. Even a question such as "Does NMs message differ greatly from that of SPs" is not all that cut and dry. The word "greatly" has to be taken into consideration and still two people can answer it using quotes galore and still come to diametrically opposed conclusions. As for what someone decides to do with the conclusion --- well that assumes that there is a conclusion and if there existed a consensus that there existed a conclusive conclusion the thread would not be active to where I joined in two hours after the last comment (by sri-govinda-das).

Yes, sri-govinda-das, I get it. I think you might be approaching the area of overkill on this subject. You dont agree with nor do you like this Narayana Maharaja. I think, however, that at this point if there are some here (or anywhere for that matter) who are not convinced by your arguments that he is not worthy of being accepted as a guru in the Gaudiya Vaisnava Sampradaya coming down through Bhaktivinode Thakur, Gauar Kisore Das Babaji, Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakur, and Srila A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada ---- they will never be convinced. Why not just let it go then? Its beginning to appear as if you have some sort of personal vendetta going. Has he personally or any of his disciples or followers done or said anything to hurt you in some way? The reason I ask is that it really does seem as though your dislike and distaste for the Maharaja is very personal and very emotional. This thread is one of several that deal with the topic of Narayana Maharaja and in each one you seem to work yourself into a frenzy. Are you leaving something out or is it just that you feel it is your duty to put up the red flag and warn others not to get involved with him and his organization?

[quote][cite] Nrsingha d:[/cite]
Nonsense speculation Kula prabhu. Only a rare liberated soul Prema-Bhakta is qualfied in Madhurya-rasa.
NM taking sannyasa before SP doesnt mean jack.
[/quote]

Actually, you cant give what you do not have. Srila Prabhupada gave his disciples primarily dasya rasa. There is no madhurya rasa anywhere in his books. There is mostly dasya, and a little bit of sakhya and vatsalya, but no madhurya. He wrote about it, but the rasa itself is not in his books. That is why most of his disciples attracted to madhurya rasa naturally went to Sridhara Maharaja and Narayana Maharaja. It is a natural flow, it cant be checked, no matter how hard you "Prabhupada-only" people huff and puff...

Both of the sannyasa u mentioned r only Kanastha as they r not liberated brahma-bhuta.
The highest type of kanistha is a pure brahmana which they both r at least for sure.

How foolish r u Kula?

[quote][cite] Nrsingha d:[/cite]
How foolish r u Kula?[/quote]
There is no limit to my foolishness...
Indeed, I am The Fool...
(cards anyone?)
:)

All will be revealed in due course of time...!

Hare Krishna!

Another bogus comment. But keep going... All Vaishnava sadhakas are worshipable, provided they became Vaishnava and dont offend others like you do.

Not offense to let it be known they r not in special liberated category.

Envy of Spiritual Master is reason we r not liberated

yes both of those sannyasa r worshipale for sure.

Ysvt.

Letter to Janardana -- New York 26 April, 1968: "The statements of
Thakura Bhaktivinode are as good as scriptures because he is liberated
person. Generally the spiritual master comes from the group of such
eternal associates of the Lord; **** but anyone who follows the
principles of such ever liberated persons is as good as one in the above
mentioned group **** [emphasis mine - Mmd]. The gurus from natures
study are accepted as such on the principle that an elevated person in
Krishna Consciousness does not accept anyone as disciple, but he accepts
everyone as expansion of his guru.
That is very high position, called Maha-bhagavata. Just like
Radharani,
sometimes thinks a subordinate of hers as her teacher, to understand
devotion of Krishna. A person who is liberated acharya and guru cannot
commit any mistake, **** but there are persons who are less qualified or
not liberated, but still can act as guru and acharya by strictly
following the disciplic succession **** [emphasis mine - Mmd]. It is the
injunction of the sastras that anyone who sees the Deity in the Temple
as made of wood or stone, or considers the acaryas and gurus as ordinary
common men, and discriminates Vaisnavas or devotees as belonging to a
certain group or caste, are called hellish."

In this verse uc0u346 ru299 la Ru363 pa Gosvu257 mu299 advises the devotee to be INTELLIGENT enough to distinguish between the kaniu7779 u7789 ha-adhiku257 ru299 , madhyama-adhiku257 ru299 and uttama-adhiku257 ru299 . The devotee should also know his own position and should not try to imitate a devotee situated on a higher platform......A neophyte Vaiu7779 u7751 ava or a Vaiu7779 u7751 ava situated on the intermediate platform can also accept disciples, but such disciples must be on the same platform, and IT SHOULD BE UNDERSTOOD that they cannot advance very well toward the ultimate goal of life under his INSUFFICIENT GUIDANCE.... Therefore a disciple should be careful to accept an uttama-adhiku257 ru299 as a spiritual master.

{NOI verse 5 (purport)}

[quote][cite] narot:[/cite]I do not know if Kylapavana is not is your special liberated category. Maybe for you it is only you and your gurudeva in special liberated category Who is your gurudeva, the person that gave you your name should be in this category, or do you think he is also not special.[/quote]

I assure you that I am not liberated, nor do I have qualifications to speak about madhurya rasa in the proper sense of this term. Yet even a fool like myself can appreciate the flow of nectar when I see it. I recognized the greatness of Srila Prabhupada by reading his books for the first time. Later I recognized the greatness of Sridhara Maharaja by reading his books for the first time, and I see the same greatness in the books of Narayana Maharaja. Each greatness is unique and has its own flavor and purpose. I am happy that I can tap into all these three rivers of nectar... Vanca kalpataru.... they are the desire trees...

Yes I also try to enjoy the nectar of HH Sridhar swami books especially.

Offence is judged by ones sincerity of purpose or lack thereof.

That is strange, since books of Narayana Maharaja are written by several people, which H H Sridar swami do you talk about? Is he your special liberated category. Based on your quote Mmd, if you are in special category you do not need to follow the parampara strictly.

Wow! This website advertises itself as "A question and answer resource for all devotees." It seems like theres more back biting, sniping, and finger pointing going on than anything else. Whats up with that? Why all the disharmony? Im seeing more anger and even borderline hatred here than on some heated political websites.

My new friend.. tattva das
Her spiritual master is His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada, the founder-acarya of ISKCON, and world-famous preacher of Krsna Consciousness and Vedic culture, and the saintly spiritual master of millions of spiritual seekers. Soon after meeting him, she was initiated and given the name Jadurani dasi. (Later on, in 1992, he inspired his spiritual successor, Srila Narayana Maharaja, to give her the additional spiritual name of Syamarani dasi, and she became one of his first few disciples.)...
THIS WONDERFUL QUOTE EXISTS PLAINLY TO ILLUSTRATE TO THESE WHO ARE WILLING TO SEE THE DEMONIAC LENGTHS THESE SAD DEVOTEES WILL GO TO CHEAT US ALL!....
NOTICE HOW THE WORDS ...SRILA PRABHUPADAS.... .HIS SPIRITUAL SUCCESSOR,srila Narayanna maharaja......SHE BECAME ONE OF HIS FIRST FEW DISCIPLES!......This can be found in its entire form at the site Hare Krishna..Bhakti art,windows to the spiritual realm......if you follow the following website ...you will see


http://www.bhaktiart.net/?page=index&action=read&news_id=5&from=page=indexhttp:

Shri Govinda, she was not one of his first disciples, Tamala Krsna Goswami, Mahanidhi Swami and Deena Bandhu were.

HH BR Sridhara Maharaja of Chaitanya Math. SP godbrother.

An observation: just like Bhakti caru Swami, he would almost word for word quote this Sridhara Swami (because he was trained by him), but never acknowledges the connection publicly. In the similar way Siwarama Swami was trained for a couple of years by Narayana Maharaja, and now is publishing extreme rasika books, but criticizing Gaudia Math. Politics politics politics. The question was asked by Sri_g only because of politics, and for no other good reason.

[quote][cite] VEDA:[/cite]Hashama, personally I dont agree with attacks on NM. The question Does NMs message differ greatly from that of SPs was answered: -yes-. Now everyone can decide what to do with this conclusion. The issue ends for me here.[/quote]

[p]
VEDA who and what are you? the chess umpire? You have decided that NMs message differs greatly, was not answered yes by anyone. In your mind you think you have a conclusion well nice for you, I respect that!. By all means play Chess Umpire in your mind but dont seek to be the Chess Umpire for everyone else.[/p]

[p]
Differ yes they all differ, go and read BR Sridhar Maharajas Bhagavadgita his purports are original and quite different from SP.[/p]

[p]
All NM is doing is discussing what SP had written about in his Nectar of Devotion, which is a summary of the Gaudia Maths Bhaktirasmrta Sindhuh Volume One.
Does NM differ of course he does all Acharyas do, Bhaktivinoda Thakur encourages all Gaudiya Vaisnavas who are qualified to write books on the subject, as each book will be different and will be like the unlimited facets on a transcendental gem, all offering unique purports on the same subject matter.[/p]

[p]
Every devotee differs to the degree that they are individual and a have a unique relationship with the Supreme but to ask the question "Does Narayan Maharajas message differ GREATLY from that of Srila Prabhupadas?" the greatly word is suggesting a complete deviation and is a politically loaded question, not that I personally mind that, but for someone to say the question has been answered is false, for you maybe. For me I see differences, not greatly because that is suggesting he has deviated from the path. Different yes, greatly not at all.[/p]

[p]
You say in one breath that you dont agree with personal attacks on NM, yet you have done a lot to fuel the debate against NM that has inspired people like SGD to blaspheme him, your tone is subtle but obvious. I havent seen any intelligent impartiality coming from you, only one eyed one mindedness.[/p]

sri_govinda_das: If I may share with you some observations:

I agree with some of the points you make and issues you raise -- not only on this but on other subjects as well. My problem is that you make it very hard for an impartial, objective reader to identify or sympathize with your presentations. I think the reason is that your rhetoric seems to be highly charged with politics and party spirit. You even speak in terms of "this team" and "that team" as if the topic were the World Cup. Also your extensive use of quotes serves more to hide than bring out your points. Why not just speak and write from your heart? If you feel angry at Narayana Maharaja and/or his followers then just say so without trying so hard to convince the rest of us the importance of sharing your anger and dissatisfaction.

One other point Id like to make is that your examples concerning the outcomes of various temple building ventures sound more like a symposium on real estate in the religious nonprofit sector than rationalizations proving or disproving the spiritual purity and potency of one party or the other. I forget who -- but someone else here pointed out to you that if you use such facts and figures as a measuring stick for success then the Mormons and the Catholic Church (et al) would have to be considered among the greatest spiritual movements of all time.

Manasi- " Differ yes they all differ, go and read BR Sridhar Maharajas Bhagavadgita his purports are original and quite different from SP."

why do u put NM,great as he is,in the same category as the previous parampara Acaryas. These recognised Acaryas r not dime a dozen. They r uncommon. They r not typical Gurus. No offence, Is that hard for u and Kula to understand.
See, I would say that that might be the subtle danger of neo GM. A slight mininilisation of the actual Acaryas. A great minimilisaton even. Am I wrong?

It is offense to consider Acarya ordinary man.

Manasi- " Differ yes they all differ, go and read BR Sridhar Maharajas Bhagavadgita his purports are original and quite different from SP."

why do u put NM,great as he is,in the same category as the previous parampara Acaryas. These recognised Acaryas r not dime a dozen. They r uncommon. They r not typical Gurus. No offence, Is that hard for u and Kula to understand.
See, I would say that that might be the subtle danger of neo GM. A slight mininilisation of the actual Acaryas. A great minimilisaton even. Am I wrong?

It is offense to consider Acarya ordinary man.

When some devotees enquired about taking siksa from other Gurus at that time,SP cryed and said my spiritual master was not ordinary man.
Word!

[quote][cite] Hashama:[/cite]sri_govinda_das: If I may share with you some observations:

I agree with some of the points you make and issues you raise -- not only on this but on other subjects as well. My problem is that you make it very hard for an impartial, objective reader to identify or sympathize with your presentations. I think the reason is that your rhetoric seems to be highly charged with politics and party spirit. You even speak in terms of "this team" and "that team" as if the topic were the World Cup. Also your extensive use of quotes serves more to hide than bring out your points. Why not just speak and write from your heart? If you feel angry at Narayana Maharaja and/or his followers then just say so without trying so hard to convince the rest of us the importance of sharing your anger and dissatisfaction.

One other point Id like to make is that your examples concerning the outcomes of various temple building ventures sound more like a symposium on real estate in the religious nonprofit sector than rationalizations proving or disproving the spiritual purity and potency of one party or the other. I forget who -- but someone else here pointed out to you that if you use such facts and figures as a measuring stick for success then the Mormons and the Catholic Church (et al) would have to be considered among the greatest spiritual movements of all time.[/quote]

Sorry borokrishna....but it is not something i have created !Jaduranis reinitiation as shyamarani devi dasi is clearly shown on that page!.Did i plagerise the teachings of some caste brahmana and sahaja....then introduce it.....into our vaisnava culture like NARAYANNA MAHARAJA did?
Sorry borokrishna i did not! Please show me where any of our PRABHUPADAS in our line introduce sahaja teachings and realisation as a substitute for their own realisation in an attempt to elevate themselves into a uttama adhikari prematurely ? Can you show me this borokrishna?But i can show the thin veil of naked ambition revealed..............................................................................................................................! Narayana Maharaja Murwillumbah, Australia: Feb. 18, 2002 (eve):
"Your Prabhupada, Srila Swami Maharaja, only changed the name into English. He is not the founder-acarya of that eternal ISKCON... I am ISKCON. Im not different from ISKCON. I am Bhaktivedanta [Srila Bhaktivedanta Narayana Gosvami Maharaja]. Like father, like son. I am the real successor of Srila Bhaktivedanta Swami Maharaja, and there is no other. You should know this very openly. I am Bhaktivedanta and he is Bhaktivedanta, but he received this name after I did. Im senior to him in this regard... Im Bhaktivedanta, and Im also ISKCON. Dont think that Im out of ISKCON."

Yes Hashama,I thought u made some nice points. At the same time,does BSST statements relate or balace. What u think prabhu.

" The truth (satya) is propagated in a twofold way viz. positively or by the method of direct support and negatively by the method of opposition. The truth cannot be made sufficiently known by the positive method alone. Propaganda by the method of opposition more than the presentation of the positive aspect brings about more brilliantly in this world the appearance and glorification of the truth. The positve method by itself is not the most effective mode of propaganda in a controversial Age like the present. The negative method which seeks to differentiate the Truth from non Truth in all its forms, is even better calculated to convey the directly inconceivable significance of the Absolute. It is a necessity which cannot be conscientiously avoided by the dedicated preacher of the Truth if he wants to be loyal servant of Godhead. The method is sure to create an atmosphere of controversy in which it is quite easy to lose ones balance of judgement. But the ways of the deluding energy are so intricate that unless their mischevious nature is fully exposed it is not possible for the soul in the conditioned state to avoid the snares spread by the enchantress for encompassing the ruin of her only too willing victims. It is a duty which shall be sacred to all who have been enabled to obtain even a distant glimpse of the Abolute." Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura

Narayana Maharaja December 3, 2001 India:
"So many of those who claim to be disciples of Prabhupada neither have faith in him nor in nama-bhajana. Rather, they have faith in universities and mayavada professors. Did Prabhupada tell anyone to learn from mayavadi professors? How can we accept them as ISKCON devotees? They have no faith in ISKCON and ISKCON principles."

Narayana Maharaja Los Angeles, California - May 31, 2000:
"Never. Srila Swami Maharaja has not instructed like this. Has he said that we should go to the atheists university? ... Has Srila Swami Maharaja told anywhere that you should go to this bad university or that bad university? What will be the result? Those who are going will be like historians. They will not believe in God. They will not believe in Name and harikatha. They will not believe that Caitanya Mahaprabhu came from Goloka Vrndavan (Svetedvipa). They will think, Krishna was not God. Gradually this belief will come. They will compare Caitanya Mahaprabhu with Buddha. They are bound to do so. They will not be able to have faith in Caitanya Caritamrta and in Srimad Bhagavatam."
Now how do these veiws of narayanna maharaja reconcile themselves with these of Srila prabhupadas?

A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada Letter to: Pierre Sauvageau - Honolulu 2 February 1975:
"I like the idea of yours to continue on for PHD presenting our books and philosophy in your thesis. This will be a great service for you to perform and I shall be very grateful to you if you can do it. Please therefore go ahead with obtaining PHD and become a learned scholar in the science of loving Krishna."

A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada , Letter No. 33 to Ravindra-svarupa, unknown Place unknown Date:
"So far as your course at the Temple University is concerned, [Ravindra Swarupa was studying for his Ph.D. at Temple University] that is the best platform for introducing our philosophy to the serious persons. And if they become sincere to learn the highest topics of subject matter or transcendental knowledge from us, that will be the perfection of their education. If you must read some other books of philosophers, even they are Mayavadis, as a sideline we can speak about them as comparative study. Otherwise our main aim is to study and preach Bhagavad-Gita and Lord Caitanya. Our purpose is to teach our own philosophy. Do not lose sight of that purpose or become distracted by other things. I have also made one book about other philosophies of your western philosophers, but I did not make compromise."
HENCE LOGICALLY narayanna maharaja is uninformed about Srila Prabhupadas at the least,.....or simply is unable to adjust to this unique preaching mood and realisation....what do you think? Is it different or is it that their understandings or the same borokrishna and manasi seva...prabhus?

Sri Govinda Prabhu pronounced Sripad Narayana Maharaja unqualified, on the premise that if you call someone your guru, but you change his instructions, you cannot yourself be a bona-fide guru, and certainly not his successor.

So, should we begin to examine the many instructions of Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakur which Srila Prabhupada contradicted, rejected or otherwise changed? Sri Govinda Prabhus rationale for disqualifying Sripad Narayana Maharaja ALSO disqualifies Srila Prabhupada.

I am beginning to suspect that Sri Govinda Prabhu is secretly a follower of Sripad Narayana Maharaja, sent to this forum with a mission of smashing the credibility of ISKCON.

acaryam mam vijaniyan [SB 11.17.27]. Krsna says: "acarya, that is I am." Acaryam mam vijaniyan navamanyeta karhicit. "Never try to neglect acarya. Navamanyeta. Neither think of acarya as ordinary person. Vedic injunction is one must approach understand all this subject matter.

-SP.

SP does not differ from essential mood and spirit of BSST. Does NM differ in this way? I dont know. But why try to elevate him to the special Acarya status of The Great Souls,Vaisnava-Thakur.

"I am beginning to suspect that Sri Govinda Prabhu is secretly a follower of Sripad Narayana Maharaja, sent to this forum with a mission of smashing the credibility of ISKCON."

This (above quote) is beginning to take on the mood of MAD Magazines Spy vs. Spy vs. Spy. Very entertaining.

Nrsingha d: Thanks for the explanation; however, it wasnt so much the actual content (positive, negative, balanced ...) that I found disconcerting -- but the mood in which some (or most) of the arguments and debates are unfolding. On the one hand the subject matter is very lofty and esoteric. In some instances Im reminded of Talmudic scholars poring over the ancient texts and engaging in endless hairsplitting debates over a single letter or word. At other times I cant help but notice the contrast between the subject matter being discussed and the level on which it is being discussed. I detect Christian style evangelical fire and brimstone proselytizing, as well as the superimposing onto and the interjecting into of immature tantrum throwing in conjunction with what Krishna describes in the Gita as "the king of knowledge, the secret of all secrets and purest knowledge."

Sorry tattva das ....i suggest him unqualified because he is not faithful to our guru-paramapara,as a consequence of introducing foreign elements in to our shared culture of Krishna conciousness,namely plagerizing caste brahmana and sahaja-ism moods and realisations .His alarming desire for the position and status as Srila Prabhupadas successor of the iskcon society!His disqualification is evident by his desire for neophytes to meditate on extremely confidential Radha -Krishna pastimes.His rampant quotes from such literature as govinda lilamrita and ujjvala nilamani which induce cheap sahajaism mentalities,contary to the instructions of Srila Bhaktisiddanta Saraswati Thakura....just to offer a few examples tattva das.
But that does not mean he cannot be a guru in your line prabhus after all your standards seem a might laxer than ISKCONS! Your servant ....

[quote][cite] sri_govinda_das:[/cite]i suggest him unqualified because he is not faithful to our guru-paramapara,as a consequence of introducing foreign elements in to our shared culture of Krishna conciousness,namely plagerizing caste brahmana and sahaja-ism moods and realisations[/quote]

So, what you are saying is that if a Gaudiya Math guru were to abandon the deity worship system given by Srila Bhaktisiddhanta, and instead replaced major elements of it with the moods and rituals of caste goswami temples, this would prove the gurus lack of faithfulness? Am I correct, Sri Govinda Prabhu?

No prabhu...you are wrong tattva das. We in ISKCON do not accept this sad pagerisation of Caste brahmana and sahaja-ism realisation as acceptable ....sorry!We attempt to follow ....and not to change!
A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada Conversation, Vrndavana, September 6, 1976:
"Dont follow these so-called Radha-kunda babajis."

Former prominent follower of Narayana Maharaja:
"The Vilap Kusumanjali lectures Narayana Maharaja gave during 1991-1993 were more or less based on the commentaries of Sri Ananda Gopal Gosvami and Sri Ananta Dasa Babaji. Particularly some of the asta-kaliya-lilas related by the former were of his own realization. In terms of the Gaudiya Math, the former would be classified as a caste Gosvamin and the latter as a sahajiya Babaji. Nevertheless Narayana Maharaja plagiarized their works and let people believe he expressed his own realizations. And moreover, now he boycotts the very same persons, Ananta das Babas, works directly on his lectures. The translator and publisher of Ananta das Babas works in English, Advaitadas, is a grand-disciple of Ananda Gopal Gosvamin. For all documents I have seen, Narayana Maharaja has not directly criticized Ananda Gopal Gosvamin, but he would certainly not be accepted by the orthodox followers of the Gaudiya Math.

[quote][cite] sri_govinda_das:[/cite]We in ISKCON do not accept this sad pagerisation of Caste brahmana and sahaja-ism realisation as acceptable ....sorry![/quote]

Just see, Sri Govinda Prabhu! You admit you are an offender to Srila Prabhupada! Srila Prabhupada chose to bring into ISKCON deity worship many of the caste goswami practices, instead of what his own guru had taught him. Now you are saying that such "sad pagerisation of Caste brahmana" is not acceptable -- so you are admitting that Srila Prabhupada is not acceptable to you! I suggest that you consult with your ISKCON authority before posting any more blasphemous attacks against Srila Prabhupada! Dont take my word for this -- look at the Arcana-paddhati of Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakur, and see how it differs from what Srila Prabhupada instituted! Maybe you can find some senior ISKCON pujari who can explain this to you, so you do not keep going on with such blasphemy of Srila Prabhupada. If you do not accept changing our line by introducing "Caste goswami" elements, then you are saying you reject Srila Prabhupada!

Nrsingha d, you are creating straw man arguments.

>>See, I would say that that might be the subtle danger of neo GM. A slight mininilisation of the actual Acaryas. A great minimilisaton even. Am I wrong?

Yes you are wrong totally wrong, because no one has minimsed anyone, thats your straw man argument. I have never said NM is greater or lesser than any previous Acharya that is not for me or for YOU to judge.

>>It is offense to consider Acarya ordinary man.

I have never never referred to any acharya as an ordinary man? where do you get this from? The only reason I have tuned into this debate is to ask people to recognise what Srila Prabupada said, "I can criticise my god bothers but you cannot" I am only defending NM on the grounds that he is a great Vaisnava and he is helping many other devotees who would have otherwise left Iskcon to continue their faith in Radha, Krishna and Srila Prabhupada, and I have been asking people to stop blaspheming him for the sake of their own spiritual lives.

You must be smoking banana leaves Nrsingha d, because what I am saying and what you are talking about are two completely different things.

Why tattva das have you attempted to introduce your hang ups on iskcon deity worship into our discussion of NARAYANNA MAHARAJAS inclination for the realisations from Caste brahmanas and sahajaism followers?.......Listen prabhu,chant hare krishna come and see us in AUCKLAND ,New Zealand. We can put you into a bhakta program....i promise!

"I have never said NM is greater or lesser than any previous Acharya that is not for me or for YOU to judge."

yes ,but u have said he is equal,that was my whole point.

Ysvt

Where did I say he was equal?, exactly where?, post my quote...

In this verse uc0u346 ru299 la Ru363 pa Gosvu257 mu299 advises the devotee to be INTELLIGENT enough to distinguish between the kaniu7779 u7789 ha-adhiku257 ru299 , madhyama-adhiku257 ru299 and uttama-adhiku257 ru299 . The devotee should also know his own position and should not try to imitate a devotee situated on a higher platform......A neophyte Vaiu7779 u7751 ava or a Vaiu7779 u7751 ava situated on the intermediate platform can also accept disciples, but such disciples must be on the same platform, and IT SHOULD BE UNDERSTOOD that they cannot advance very well toward the ultimate goal of life under his INSUFFICIENT GUIDANCE.... Therefore a disciple should be careful to accept an uttama-adhiku257 ru299 as a spiritual master.

{NOI verse 5 (purport)}

Nrsingha d,

You really are smoking banana leaves, I talk about apples and you come in and give a dissertation on oranges.

I asked you in my last post something very simple (Where did I say he was equal?, exactly where?, post my quote... )

I have never made any statements about what level anyone is on, I have only one interest in this debate and that is for people to mature up and treat other Gaudiya Vaisnavas with respect and if you dont like their books or what they say, then give respect from a distance and some how from that you somehow deduce that I am minimising someone?

If you want to criticise or disagree with something I have said that is fine by me, but give people the respect of actually copying what they said and pasting it into your post and make at least a half baked attempt at a real discussion, dont dream some garbage up by trying to read something into or between the lines.

So next time read the posts dont dream up arguments about what was never stated. I dont have time for idiots and morons. If you cant read properly go back to English classes.

Manasi- " Differ yes they all differ, go and read BR Sridhar Maharajas Bhagavadgita his purports are original and quite different from SP."

Who are they?

Ysvt.

The question in this thread if you havent noticed is "Does Narayan Maharajas message differ greatly from that of Srila Prabhupadas?"

If you read my entire post you would see what I am saying because I repeat it several times, and it was a response to someone else claiming that the question had been answered conclusively which I stated was false, in my opinion they differ but not greatly. So they is NM and Srila Prabhupada and what is it they differ on its the message (we are not comparing them on elevation or who is a greater personality only on message), again read the post!

Yes they differ on message because they are unique individuals but the differences are small there is no major deviation by NM on message, he is only discussing what Srila Prabupada wrote about. So the message of NM is that you should constantly think about Radha and Krishna and that is the same message as Srila Prabhupada.

Now I can see I will need to explain this to you, I am talking about the message from NM vs the message from Srila Prabhupada.

In no way am I comparing NM to Srila Prabhupada as far as who is more elevated than who, that wasnt even in my thinking! So you have completely misread my post. We are talking about the message not about elevation, or who is more exalted, you need to tune in.

If this needs explaining then you need help, this little conversation is over.

Jaya Prabhu!

Dealings with other branches of the Gaudiya Math Murlidhara dasa, disciple of Govinda Maharaja (Sridhar Maharajas disciple, Gaudiya Math) April 1999:
"For several years Narayana Maharaja heavily attacked Srila Sridhar Maharaja both verbally and in print. Before Srila Guru Maharajas departure from this world, when we were living with Srila Guru Maharaja at Nabadwip Sri Chaitanya Saraswat Math in the 1980s the disciples of Srila Sridhar Maharaja who knew the facts about the relationship between our Divine Master and Narayana Maharaja would never go to the Math of Narayana Maharaja. Ultimately, however, it is not just Bhaktivedanta Narayana Maharajas attitude towards Srila Sridhar Maharaja but also Narayana Maharajas philosophy that disconnects him from Srila Sridhar Maharaja, (especially), Narayana Maharajas proposal that neophyte devotees should constantly meditate on Krishnas pastimes with the gopis."
Swami B.V. Tripurari, "Gadadhara Pandita: Harmonizing Differences", July 22, 2000:
"The closest followers of every other sect in our Gaudiya Sarasvata sampradaya that are preaching internationally, all of whom I am acquainted with, feel that many of the followers of Narayana Maharaja are full of pride... We are happy for the success of Narayana Maharajas group for Mahaprabhu. We wish them well. My dear Godbrother, Sripada B.G. Narasingha Maharaja, and I personally welcomed Sripada B.V. Narayana Maharaja on his first world tour with open arms. Why do his leading followers now insult persons like us, and, implicit in their fanatical preaching, gurus like Pujyapada Sridhara Maharaja, Puri Goswami, B.V. Tirtha Maharaja, etc.?"
So it is not just an iskcon problem....Narayanna maharajas aggressive attempts to force his own mistaken opinions of Bhakti, upon the worlds different gaudiya mathas devotees and their gurus!...
What right has he to attack Sridhara maharaja?Who is his superior in every respect.Who is on the level of his own diksa guru....Is this the behaviour of a Vaisnava?When the desire to be Srila Prabhupadas successor within ISKCON sets in.When the present mood of getting thisISKCON Archarya position BECOMES ALL CONSUMING?HOOK OR BY CROOK sets in ......is this a material consideration?
When this Desire for profit and position swallows you up ?When you are performing low class activities by Re-initiating foolish neophytes,whose guru has not fallen?And because of these material desires for POSITION,you make it your permanent Preaching strategy.?Is this the behaviour of a Vaisnava?Please manasi seva and kulapavanna prabhus ....please explain how have these impurities come upon your team?We are certainly bereft of your RAGANUGA vision!Please enlighten us how this is KRISHNAS arrangement?Is this what ie means by taking the mercy of the VAISNAVA.....you attempt to steal his neophyte disciples?

Manasi,Why do the GM devotees above seem to think NM greatly differs. I reposted from Sri Govinda.
Ysvt.

Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakura, in Madhurya Kadambini, gives this verse from Bhagavatam 1.6.17 as an example of the symptoms of prema--note the word "prema" in the Sanskrit--in reference to Narada in his life as a maidservants son:
"prematibhara-nirbhinna- pulakango tinirvrtah ananda-samplave lino napasyam ubhayam mune
O Vyasadeva, at that time, being exceedingly overpowered by feelings of happiness, every part of my body became separately enlivened. Being absorbed in an ocean of ecstasy, I could not see both myself and the Lord.
"A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada, Nectar of Devotion, chap 11 purport:
"Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura writes in this connection that Sri Radha-kunda is the most select place for those interested in advancing their devotional service in the wake of the lady friends, sakhis, and confidential serving maids, manjaris, of Srimati Radharani."

A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada Krishna Book chap. 29: The Rasa Dance: Introduction:
"The gopis who joined Krishnas pastimes (to dance with Him in the rasa dance) within this material world were coming from the status of ordinary human beings. If they had been bound by fruitive action, they were fully freed from the reaction of karma by constant meditation on Krishna."

Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura, Sri Caitanya Siksamrta, Chapter 7, Part 1:
"Those who have not attained pure rati and sense control make futile attempts to become qualified for rasa by practicing rasa. That taste which arises naturally in a person on the level of prema is called rasa. The discussion of rasa is only a description of how the various elements combine in the different rasas; it is not a part of sadhana. Therefore, if anyone says that he will teach you the sadhana of rasa, he is an impostor or a fool.

Attaining Prema in this Life Narayana Maharaja, Confidential Secrets of Bhajana, page 20:
"Next is the stage of prema. But this cannot appear in this body. It can only come in our next life, somewhere in the material world where prakata-lila is going on. Then the sadhaka will take birth in the womb of a gopi. Prema can be achieved in that body, through the association of nitya-siddha devotees. Otherwise it is not possible." A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada purport to Srimad Bhagavatam 6.16.51: "The science of devotional service has been instructed by Narada and Angira to Citraketu...By performing devotional service, one advances step by step, and when one is on the platform of love of Godhead (prema pumartho mahan) he sees the Supreme Lord at every moment. ...Citraketu Maharaja was first instructed by his gurus, Angira and Narada, and now, having followed their instructions, he has come to the stage of seeing the Supreme Lord face to face."



Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakura, in Madhurya Kadambini, gives this verse from Bhagavatam 1.6.17 as an example of the symptoms of prema--note the word "prema" in the Sanskrit--in reference to Narada in his life as a maidservants son:
"prematibhara-nirbhinna- pulakango tinirvrtah ananda-samplave lino napasyam ubhayam mune
O Vyasadeva, at that time, being exceedingly overpowered by feelings of happiness, every part of my body became separately enlivened. Being absorbed in an ocean of ecstasy, I could not see both myself and the Lord."

So these quotes prove that NARAYANNA MAHARAJA is wrong in his appreciation of bhakti according to mahajanas within our line!He is making several fallacious and incorrect statements of his personal realisations . That symptoms of PREMA cannot appear within this body,that from this body one cannot directly ascend to the pastimes of Radha -krishna lila.And that you can teach the sadhana of rasa,as he is doing by encouraging neophytes to meditate on the pastimes of Radha-KRISHNA.!....NOTE THAT bhaktivinoda thakura ....commentsTherefore, if anyone says that he will teach you the sadhana of rasa, he is an impostor or a fool.

An interesting point of view from Bhagavan

http://bhagavandasa.blogspot.com/2010/02/life-after-isckon-part-4.html

Sorry borokrishna .....do you get a warm fuzzy feeling?Sadly it failed to appease my dislike for these murky dark desires of passion ,yearning to lord it over iskcon by hoping to hide, naked attachment to position!.Because i saw no sastric quotes ,...just another less than happy elderly gentleman outside Iskcon with an axe to grind!Manasi seva .....sorry to disappiont you also but i am able to understand what our archaryas are generally saying about this subject!And if you are unable to appreciate it personally ,i can spell it out for you.Narayanna maharajas message is extremely different than our Srila Prabhupadas.Some would say it is sahaja-ism.....,however i merely say it is inspired speculation from the wrong source.Unfortunately he is not , in my opinion the Vaisnava ARCHARYA we truly need!

Please accept these quotes which an old freind offered in his wisdom......
What does Rupa Goswami say?
In the Nectar of Devotion, Chapter 16, the following statements sound almost like a forecast of the present problem: "Spontaneous love of Krishna as exhibited by the Vrishnis and the denizens of Vrindavana is eternally existing in them. In the stage of devotional service where regulative principles are followed, there is no necessity of discussing this love, for it must develop of itself at a more advanced stage".

What does Bhaktivinode Thakur say?
'93Rasa is not a part of sadhana. Therefore if somebody says: '91Come, I will teach you rasa'92, then it will be his wickedness or foolishness. Rasa is not the subject of knowledge but of taste.

Srila Bhaktivinode became extremely grave and he answered; "It is not helpful for a conditioned soul to meditate upon the asta kaliya lila (the eight daily pastimes) of Sri Sri Radha Krishna because one who is unqualified will commit aparadhas".

According to Srila Bhaktivinode Thakur there are two features of Lord Caitanyas personality. Audarya and Madhurya. Preaching is Audarya (magnanimity) and Raga Marga is Madhurya (conjugal feelings). No one can relish Madhurya without Audarya. This point is very well described in Sri Navadvip Dham Mahatmya in Chapter 18. Lord Nityananda tells Srila Jiva Goswami: "One who is qualified in madhurya-rasa worships Gauranga in the form of Radha and Krishna. As Radha and Krishna have combined in one form as my Gauranga Raya, Their pastimes do not appear to be manifest in His form. When the worship of Gauranga in dasya-rasa reaches full maturity in the heart of the living entity, madhurya-rasa naturally develops in his heart. At that time ones worship of Gaurahari qualifies him to worship Radha and Krishna in Vrindavan". Worship of Gauranga in dasya rasa is preaching. We are not advised to imitate Gaurangas internal feelings but we are advised to serve Him in dasya. This will qualify us for Madhurya rasa......

Personally i find such teachings a little above myself ,however i at least appreciate that Narayanna maharajas teachings are significantly different in mood and vital substance compared to Bhaktivedanta swami ....so how can these sincere new people benefit from such ill advised hollow attempts to simply jump to a higher position ?

Differences in Teachings, Mood, and Practices

The simple fact is that Srila Prabhupada and Srila Narayana Maharaja have very different teachings, standards, practices, and moods of devotion. ISKCON recognizes and respects Srila Narayana Maharaja'92s right to teach according to his understanding and inspiration. The difficulty comes when Srila Narayana Maharaja and his followers present those teachings as identical to Srila Prabhupada'92s or try to change Srila Prabhupada'92s instructions and standards when they conflict with those of Srila Narayana Maharaja.

The following are a few examples of those differences:

*

Srila Prabhupada repeatedly warned about prematurely hearing descriptions of madhurya-lila, the intimate pastimes Krsna enjoys with the gopis. Srila Narayana Maharaja speaks openly about these topics.
*

Srila Narayana Maharaja encourages the reading of literature Srila Prabhupada restricted for his disciples or even dismissed as unimportant or tinged with impersonalism. An example of the former is the intimate writings of the Gosvamis, of the latter Tulasidasa'92s Ramacarita-manasa.
*

Srila Narayana Maharaja says that Srila Prabhupada'92s work is unfinished because he did not provide us with intimate rasika literature and methods of raganuga-sadhana. Srila Prabhupada described his unfinished work as the fact that varnasrama-dharma had not yet been established in his Society, that sets of his books had not yet been placed in every home, that people were still going hungry within ten miles of ISKCON temples, that the Lord'92s Holy Name had not yet been heard in every town and village, etc.
*

Srila Narayana Maharaja presents a view that one born in a Western body is inherently fallen, especially in regard to Deity worship. Srila Prabhupada engaged and encouraged his Western disciples in Deity worship and accepted them as full-fledged Vaisnavas.
*

Srila Prabhupada said, '93[The] acarya is not God, omniscient. He is servant of God.'94 Srila Narayana Maharaja presents Srila Prabhupada as omniscient.
*

Srila Narayana Maharaja says that Srila Prabhupada wanted him to guide and lead the members of ISKCON. Srila Prabhupada always said his books and his system of a collective governing body (GBC) should guide his society.
*

Srila Prabhupada said that harinama-diksa (first initiation) is real initiation. Srila Narayana Maharaja teaches that real initiation begins with brahmana-diksa. Srila Prabhupada required candidates for harinama-diksa to be chanting sixteen rounds and strictly following the four regulative principles. Srila Narayana Maharaja regularly gives first initiation without these requirements. Srila Narayana Maharaja and Srila Prabhupada also have very different standards for relations between husband and wife.
*

Srila Narayan Maharaja '93re-initiates'94 disciples of Vaisnvava gurus in good standing. When similarly approached, Srila Prabhupada refused to do this.
*

Srila Prabhupada worked to create a worldwide society that provided engagement and shelter for his followers. Srila Narayana Maharaja has not done so.
*

Srila Prabhupada and Srila Narayana Maharaja have different teachings about the original position of the jiva (the individual soul).
*

Srila Prabhupada teaches that the initiating guru takes the karma of the disciple. Srila Narayana Maharaja teaches that the guru does not.
*

Srila Prabhupada envisioned a worldwide society where many gurus work collegially under a governing body. Srila Narayana Maharaja practices the Gaudiya Matha single-acarya system.

Note: Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura instructed his followers to also work together under a governing body and Srila Prabhupada often cited neglect of this order as the cause for the break-up of his spiritual master'92s mission ,,,,,,,I thought this official mood and statement might be helpful for the innocent and non envious.

Good to see there is a healthy debate going on here,we do not bother with narayanna maharaja or his humble team in Australia.Since many are old friends who gave their best years to srila Prabhupada and his iskcon society.However though they are very different now ....practically they are literally unable to preach powerfully because they lack a strong devotional program and are not so committed to creating a strong temple base!They are very aggressive towards us recently..... but within our preaching environment they are unable to preach without mature strategy and sadhana....which is difficult while you are up there with the gopis

It is over prabhu because he is now shown to be simply a what he is a jnani who is outside the sampradaya.....unauthorised and simply an opportunist who has some jnana from a sahaja guru.....but this does not make him Srila Prabhupadas successor.....we have never heard of him except very breifly......from some small gaudiya matha!