Pariprashnena — Q&A Archive

Please dont count me among the great souls, but here is my take on it...

If it is not approved by Krishna in the Bhagavad Gita as a legitimate religious process, it is bogus. Bhagavad gita lays down the law, nowhere does Krsna say "You can do whatever you like, as long as it is pleasing to your guru". It is not Vedic.

And my gut feeling? Run to the hills from anybody who tells you: "There is no need to respect the morals and values of normal society. All you have to do is please me, and Im your guru who knows exactly what pleases God".

It is a theological doctrine that by faith and Gods gift of grace through the gospel a Christian is freed not only from the Old Testament law of Moses and all forms of legalism but also from all law including the generally accepted standards of morality prevailing in any given culture. NOW THAT IS THE SICK IDEA. I have heard from a Shrila Prabhupadas initiated disciple, that he approved him engaging in crime, because he was initiated. That is bogus, to be initiated means you are in pure and complete goodness, without ignorance (lawlessness). If you are governed by ignorance, your claim for liberation is an illusion and farce (and that goes for those who smuggled drugs in picture frames to pay for the temples).

All glories to Srila Prabhupada!

From the lowly servant of great souls:

The beautiful young milkmaids of Vraja break the highest societal codes for ladies, giving up the company of their husbands, family and young children to run to Sri Krishna in the dead of night and their love is glorified by Sriman Mahaprabhu as being on the highest level; nothing impedes it. The queens of Lord Krishna were tested by Sri Narada Muni when He asked them for some foot dust to cure Sri Krishnas headache. The queens were unwilling, as putting the dust of ones own feet on the Supreme Lord is certainly a great offense, but the milkmaids said, "Let us go to Hell, just let Krishna be happy." This going against what is generally followed in society is not arificial, it is practical demonstration of the condition of the heart of the greatest souls, and reveals to all what we can aspire to. Less it be cheapened, lets not forget the milkmaids also willingly spent the remainder of their lives in a greatly distressed condition lamenting the loss of their only beloved Object of love.

Misunderstanding ones adikar causes falldown. For neophytes like us, and anyone not on that level of unmotivated, uninterupted devotion, Srila Prabhupadas general instruction is to respect and obey the mundane morals and values of society, which, for the most part is ALREADY ACHIEVED better than the norm, by following his basic instructions. In some cases, neophyte devotees work against the laws to establish Sri Krishna. Ie: book distribution where is it not allowed, fighting for access to Bhaktivedanta Manor, etc. Lord Caitanya gathered a crowd of devotees in civil disobedience to the Chand Kasis injunction against Harinam Samkirtan. In some rare cases the bona fide Acarya instructs certain disciples according to their karma to engage in the Lords service in a manner not understood or appreciated by the genreal mass of persons or devotees.

Devotees do not put themselves in positions to compel the Lord to serve them (save them) by breaking laws. Nor do they knowingy set bad examples for a society which operates on an entirely different energy--Mayas. Lord Krishna has given full control over the rebellious souls in this world to her and thinking we are free of her when we are not is inviting trouble. Daivi Varnashram requires good examples and it is our duty to try to fulfill Srila Prabhupadas wish of extablishing it. One who is self-realized, on the liberated platform, and hears Sri Caitya Guru instructing from within, their only duty is to obey that, never mind any other concern, same for those who receive instructions from a bona fide Sri Guru Acarya spiritual master, as They are non-different.

The antinomianism you describe brings to minds attempts by low-class religious groups, who pretend to be devoted to God but mix with other mens wives in secret, are addicted to intoxicants or perform other nefarious activities. If one engages in any form of forbidden sense gratification and claims to be exempt from norms because they belong to a particular religious group, they are cheating. Sriman Mahaprabhu made example of Junior Haridas to instruct us how strict those claiming to be His followers should be.

We should pray to become advanced so we can respect the highly placed spiritual position of devotees like Sri Ramananda Raya who bathed young girls for Lord Jagannaths pleasure or Sri Sabari mataji, who tasted fruit before Lord Rama to make sure it was sweet enough for Him or Srila Pundarika Vidyanidhi, who appeared to be a materialist interested in bodily comfort. Otherwise we will make offense at the lotus feet of Vaisnavas by correcting, critisizing, and foul mouthing, which will not be very good for our spiritual lives and will negate the effect of Harikatha. Committing sin on the stregnth of chanting is one of the ten offenses. Such chanting is dangerous. Harinama Cintamoni, the touchstone effect of the Holy Name to give whatever one wants will give us a sense of pride, superiority, closed mindedness and liking for quarrel. In this way we will go far away from what Srila Prabhupada has so mercifully come to bring us.

Final thought: Due to our neophyte status we are very much ready to assume that we can do anything because we are devotees or chant Hare Krishna.

Your question: "Without necessary appreciation of mundane morals and values of normal society (ie: do unto others as you would have them do unto you: be respectful, honest and polite) how relevant is this amongst our thinking?"

Our society is here on Pariparsnena. How relevant is this amonst our thinking. What do you think?

Mr. portnoy may stop using a language of sexual abuse which is embedded in his brain, for example.

I think the question really being asked and is the heart of Antinomianism is can we flout the laws of the land and think that the end justifies the means, as the Christians thought they were freed from common law by virtue of grace as set forth in the gospel.

It is interesting to see how when asked the question most say yes and start providing all sorts of religious quotes to say that we can do illegal things as long as we are trying to serve Guru or Krishna. Hansadutta (another ex Iskcon Guru) thought he could when he was engaged in selling hard core drugs and was busted with the drugs and a car boot full of machine guns. I am sure the judge was amused at sentencing when the defendant says "But I was just doing it for God and my Guru Maharaja"

It is true that some Laws are unjust and they must be fought, Mahatma Ghandi believed the English occupation of India was illegal and he was right, he was so right he kicked the mighty British Empire out of India through peaceful, non-violent non-cooperation. However many laws protect us all and to this today protect our freedom to be able to choose a religion and dress the way we want (not in all countries but most)

The extreme side of Antinomianism is also what leads people to start killing each other over religion or beliefs and if not checked it becomes the ugly side of religion. All religions/spiritual sects are guilty of this crime. Yes even Gaudia Vaisnavas.

If you find yourself in a position where you are facing unjust laws then you must fight them, like the Russian devotees who were locked up in the 80s simply for practicing Krishna Consciousness and with the help and protest of devotees around the world, they were set free. But it is not in the interest of Chaitanya Mahaprabhu, the disciplic succession or Srila Prabhupadas memory to lie, cheat and steal or to break common laws and then to cover that action in your mind with the thought "Ah it doesnt matter its for Prabhupada and Krishna". This sort of thinking has seen many devotees serve time in prison and it presents the worst representation of Gaudia Vaisnavism.

Moral codes are far more temporary than laws, in the west we see moral codes changing very quickly even within a single generation (30 years). But some of our laws have been around for 200+ years and some with no change, laws are also temporary on the grand scale, but not like morals.

You can never start quoting what the Gopis of Vrindavan did in the pastimes of Radha and Krishna in a discussion like this, they are in Goloka Vrindavan, the deepest spiritual realm. We are in the material world where laws are necessary to control materialistically minded people, we are discussing simple common people breaking or flouting common law and using their beliefs to justify it.

I remeber when i jioned,thirty years ago.....we were being attacked regularly by the Police and sercurity gaurds for just distributing Srila Prabhupadas books!We were seen as a cult,who were into free sex and drugs!Similar in nature to the rajanesh group,sri chin moy and others whom the authorities held in low regaurd.
It was decided by our local gbc...Hauri sauri...[Prabhupada kripa goswami at the time],and the other senior Prabhupada disciples to do paraphenalia instead of books, because it was creating regular problems with general communities perception of the Hare krishna movement.
We had abosutely nothing ....except a common purpose.No permanent temple,few reliable cars,pretty ordinary prasadam unless it was the Sunday feast!......Rightly or wrongly we were extremely sold out to guru and krishna!Which is why when i came across this understanding in a single word,Antinomianism...i immediately saw that this was rightly or wrongly a very strong mood within my generation of devotees.
Coupled with a very strong anti-establishment mentality,which seemed present amongst my superiors meant we were literally willing to practically anything to serve guru and krishna. Which today is very ,very sadly missing in comparison!
As a result in part of this mood, we performed huge service and basically established the strong financial Basis for our temples and wonderful reputation in Australia and New Zealand.Which was single handedly changed through a very expensive but extremely worthwhile corporate style mail out.
\Which was delivered Nation wide,into every home and completely changed the ordinary persons veiw of us!Though it cost literally hundreds of thousands of dollars ,it was immensely powerful and was indeed an entirely important informative and value installing moment within the nations perception of the ISKCON society.Yes we were extremely sold out to guru and krishna!.....But that extreme single pionted mentality is within Iskcon devotees ...possibly as a consequence of Srila Prabhupadas personal vision!....After all he spent a lifetime in preparation for his preaching years as an elderly vaisnava sanyasis!

SGD, I think you are confusing the issues, its one thing to be fired up and willing to serve Guru and Krishna its a different issue when you are breaking the laws and people are being imprisoned.

I remember the period of not being able to distribute books, that was an unjust law, they should have fought that one right up to the supreme court, but instead they chose the easy path, telling lies while dressed up falsely as Karmis, selling all sorts of garbage like Hong Kong oil paintings for 300-500 bucks that were worth 5-20 bucks. Yes they made alot of money, did they break any laws, not really, but they had to constantly lie about who they were and the true value of their products.

You think it should all be like that again? No it never will because people (devotees) are no longer that stupid and no longer willing to maintain a facade of lies and deceit, in fact in someways things have improved, some devotees are less gullible. To be honest I had trouble with that one straight away, here I was shaved up and supposed to be studying shastra but instead I was given Karmi clothes and a wig and told to sell paintings and rip as much money as I could off of people. It lasted a few weeks then at that point I couldnt reconcile the lies and deceit. What you experienced here was the sub-culture of Iskcon it had nothing to do with Gaudia Vaisnavism just some concocted fraudulent way of making money that was sold to you as Sankirtan, you were so gullible then and you are so gullible now.

The word got changed from Paraphernalia sales to Sankirtan, it had nothing to with Sankirtan (another deviation), more like Scamkirtan. The leaders were telling young devotees if you can simply sell these paintings all your life you will automatically go back to godhead, which is a load of nonsense. Bhakti Yoga is a science if you dont practice it you dont go anywhere! There are so many Christianised views entering into Iskcon, like just do some simple thing and automatically go back to godhead, its like saying just say you believe and Christ will save you. That is not the teachings, its a science, there are steps to be followed and cheating, lies and being a fraudster will not get you back to godhead, there is no instruction anywhere from anyone in our disciplic succession that asks us to be a cheat a liar and a fraudster, quite the opposite Srila Prabhupada wanted everyone to become a first class man or woman, to speak the truth, the highest truth and become an example to all human beings.

Yes i am a fool manasi- seva .....A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada Room conversation, Bombay: August 16, 1976:
"They (Bhaktisiddhantas disciples) never thought, Why Guru Maharaja gave us instruction so many things, why he did not say that this man should be acarya? They wanted to create artificially somebody acarya and everything failed.
They did not consider even with common sense that if Guru Maharaja wanted to appoint somebody as acarya, why did he not say? He said so many things, and this point he missed? The real point? ...
So better remain a foolish person perpetually to be directed by Guru Maharaja. That is perfection......!
Sorry mansi seva you were not surrendered to iskcon or its leaders as your testimony exhibits .Hopefully you fit in better in the Gaudiya matha environment...with those who severely disobeyed their gurus instruction to set up a GBC......!Motivaqted by Profit,adoration and distinction!
.Sankirtan ....yes i went on sankirtan ,which when i researched it meant to liberate laxmi ,the complete glorification of krishna!
Using my youthful energy and whatever other qualities i might have possessed personally! ....what ever i was asked to sell....
yes i might have been foolish mansi-seva prabhu!....
.So better remain a foolish person perpetually to be directed by our Guru Maharaja. That is perfection......!..
.I am in THE SRILA AC Bhaktivedanta swami Prabhupadas line!...
We are not Gaudiya matha.!....like Narayanna maharaja.
Hari Sauri 3/31/97 7:54 AM Letter:
"He (Narayana Maharaja) shouted, I am not under your rules. I am not ISKCON, I am Gaudiya Math!"

[quote][cite] sri_govinda_das:[/cite]I remeber when i jioned,thirty years ago.....we were being attacked regularly by the Police and sercurity gaurds... We were seen as a cult,who were into free sex and drugs![/quote]

I wonder where the police and security guards got that idea? Maybe they had met Srila Bhavananda Goswami Vishnupada?

>>I wonder where the police and security guards got that idea? Maybe they had met Srila Bhavananda Goswami Vishnupada?

Yes Ill bet years later those same police saw the expose on Bhavananda, which hit the TVs and press in all of his zones, and Ill bet they all said "See we were right!"
LMHO

Unfortunately Prabhu at that time the guru was to be Tamala krishna goswami ....till he decided he was not merciful enough to initiate in Aotearoa.....New Zealand.This was early 1979....however maybe they wanted to stop the future sankirtan movement of Sri Chaitanya mahaprabhu.....and his servants which included bhavannada das,hauri sari das and Balarama das from becoming world champion.....and ISKCONS SUPREME ZONAL book distributors for at least THREE YEARS consecutively .
One week i remember we distributed literally thousands of Srila PRABHUPADAS BOOKS personally!Each day for 8 hours a day we just took boxes and literally gave them away!Because our wharehouse had several containers of new books outside....stopping traffic!Which created literally an avalanche of interest in Krishna Conciousness!Yes there might have been many problems but our successes were also immense!Which far out-weighs wether someone is a qualified diksa guru or not!
Personally we were creating the foundations then.... for the incredible iskcon society to grow substantially worldwide!We built temples in SYDNEY,MURWILLAMBAH,COLO RIVER.....personally with my godbrothers!Then also had sankirtan marathons for Auckland and Christchurch TEMPLES!...
Which is the reason why having read this philosophical term Antinomianismit struck a cord with me!.Which was illustrated by this example ........From the Transcendental diary...hari sauri dass personal account!
Srila Prabhupada was traveling through New Zealand,Within the car was hari sauri das ,gurukripa swami and himself! ....Guru kripa goswami had given Srila Prabhupada a huge and substantial sankirtan contribution,which paid for krishna -balarama temples construction!.....,sitting in the car together, traveling together ,Srila Prabhupada was simply ecstatic!........
He said,Krishna and i have built you a house in the spiritual realm,addressing guru-kripa swami. .....obviously he felt extremely indebted to his wonderful disciples!.Which would indeed lead to the perfection of his spiritual life!.....Which he still remebers today obviously!.
However there was also a certain bad reaction amongst the non-devotees as a result of their[GURUKRIPAS ] preaching teams methods within JAPAN!......So ultimately it would be wonderful if there had not been some disturbance .....however i keep thinking that Srila Prabhupada said to guru-kripa swami ....Krishna and i have built you a house in the spiritual realm,

Lord Shiva could digest an ocean of poison, but you and I are forbidden from trying to imitate him.

Srila Prabhupadas godbrothers saw him digesting CHILD-RAPE, DRUG-SMUGGLING, MURDER, PROSTITUTION, RACKETEERING and other crimes, alongside rampant NAMAPARADHA and APASIDDHANTA.

Can anyone blame Srila Prabhupadas godbrothers for steering their own followers away from ISKCONs filthy activities that would have repulsed any onlooker who was not a thug or a hippie?

Even so, a few of Srila Prabhupadas most perceptive and advanced godbrothers could recognize what was happening. They saw that their junior godbrother "Swami Maharaja" was in fact an exalted and unique shaktyavesh avatar, as predicted by Bhaktivinode Thakur. Remember, it wasnt the ISKCON devotees who first recognized this about their own spiritual master -- they were told about Srila Prabhupadas exalted status by his godbrothers Yajavar Maharaja and Sridhar Maharaja.

Now, 30+ years after Srila Prabhupadas tirobhava, what do we see? We see an entire movement dedicated to the premise that "SRILA PRABHUPADA DIGESTED AN OCEAN OF POISON (but not a drop administered by his own disciples, of course!), SO WE WILL CALL THAT POISON NECTAR AND TRY TO DRINK IT OURSELVES!"

If Srila Prabhupada had not engaged a generation of Jagais and Madhais in Krishnas service, they would have been nothing more than another batch of thugs and druggies and lowlifes. But by the touch of Srila Prabhupada, their filthy lives became glorious. Many recognized that glory, and understood with profoundest gratitude that it came fully from Srila Prabhupada. Sadly, a few later decided that they now had become glorious themselves, and could safely continue the program of CHILD-RAPE, DRUG-SMUGGLING, MURDER, PROSTITUTION, RACKETEERING, NAMAPARADHA and APASIDDHANTA on their own strength. And what do we see? They cannot drink the ocean of poison, and they lose their heads (whether in a car crash or by a sharp knife), or lose control of their senses, or lose their minds and abandon the pure devotional service that Srila Prabhupada had allowed them to perform.

Yes, ISKCON has big temples. The Catholic Church has bigger temples. Yes, the Catholic Church has even more child-rape (on an absolute basis -- though on a per-capita basis, ISKCON remains the child-rape champion). I find it interesting to notice the attributes that Sri Govinda Prabhu associates with the "success" of ISKCON -- if ISKCON continues to measure its success in the same manner as Sri Govinda Prabhu, it will in a few generations be even more remarkably like the Catholic Church, and not at all like the ideal Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakur outlined in his essay on organized religion.

Recently when Narayanna maharajas temple and land project were sold in a mortgagee sale in Auckland ......very ,very quietly tattva das,would you suggest that it was an empowered preaching stategey of Radharanis or lalitas closest servant Narayanna maharaja!
When our former Iskcon life members come and ask us what happened to the hare krishna temple...?And we are forced to explain their......[Narayanna maharajas local teams ] immature and lacking behaviour is in no way connected to us ISKCON!....what would you suggest is better?My attitude or their hopeless inept abject failure to last.....for simply a few months in their great project!.....you chose which one Tattva das?

> to liberate laxmi

It reminds me of Ramayana when Hanuman asked Ramas permission to abduct Sita (Laksmi) from Lanka but Rama wanted to liberate her by a straight fight.

The Siva-poison analogy is also good.

The most well-known case of Vaisnava antinomianism seems to be Tirumangai Alvar who built Sri Rangam temple. First he tried to beg from rich people but it didnt work. Then he adopted Robin Hood like activities and
people started to give him money on their own. Some with understanding that hes a great devotee and some out of fear. He was very careful not to use any of this wealth for himself.

"Tirumangai still lived the simple life of a devotee, eating only once a day prasadam cooked by his own hand and prepared from food he obtained by begging. He would also ensure that all the people in that area never suffered for want of food -only the rich lived in fear of the sage Tirumangai." (Life of Ramanujacarya by Naimisaranya das)

He stopped his operation when the temple was finished and got rid of his robbers when they wanted their share. At the end he said:

"Do not feel concerned for these men. After all the service they have rendered, surely Lord Ranganatha will protect them. Is it not better for them to leave the world at this time than to continue living as robbers? Now let us all pass the remaining days of our lives in the service of Lord Ranganatha, for our purpose in adopting the robbers lifestyle has been fulfilled."

> Recently when Narayanna maharajas temple and land project were sold in a mortgagee sale in Auckland

Cmon Sri Govinda, I am not a Narayana Maharaja follower, but Im sure you know this goes on in ISKCON too.

bg 18.178
Wherever there is Kuc0u7771 u7779 u7751 a, the master of all mystics, and wherever there is Arjuna, the supreme archer, there will also certainly be opulence, victory, extraordinary power, and MORALITY. That is my opinion.

Yes in fact Iskcon Colo River Farm was in NSW it had been maintained by a community of devotees for decades was sold off by Prabha Vishnu swami, its one thing to be sold out by the banking organisations its another to be sold out by your own GBC rep.

One of the biggest farms Iskcon ever had 27,000 acre farm New Gaudadesh was in the river-land area near Broken Hill, went under during Bhavanandas reign in the 80s sold to China scientists for research.

But SGD never responds to this stuff because all he and VEDA are interested in doing is presenting a one sided argument so they can feel justified in Blaspheming a Gaudiya Vaisnava.

The outrageous thing is all they can do is cut and paste, cut paste they have never met Narayan Maharaja (correct me if I am wrong) and they have never presented any of the above questions to him .

VEDA with his ridiculous examples of how highway robbery can work as long as you are careful to use every penny for Krishna and you just send your robbers away at the end just hoping they wont kill you, and tell me does this include killing people VEDA as long as we do it in Krishnas name. That story you are using about Tirumangai Alvar, he was personally visited in the end by Laxmi and Narayan who he tried to rob and he realised who they were, this is a transcendental story, you cannot use it in this example. In fact Laxmi and Narayan came to get him to stop because he was breaking all the religious codes, dont try it SGD and VEDA you will just end up in prison and Laxmi and Narayan wont come to save you.

>The most well-known.............................................................................................................lifestyle has been fulfilled."

This isnt the mood of a Gaudiya Vaisnava. Lord Gauranga Mahaprabhus teachings are different. They are trinad api sunicena and so on. Srila Prabhupada wrote so many books but never explained this story in any of his purports.

Perhaps, this is the reason Narayana Maharaja feels that ISKCON devotees need to understand Srila Prabhupada through him and he reinitiates them.

> This isnt the mood of a Gaudiya Vaisnava.

Neither do I claim it.

[quote][cite] VEDA:[/cite]
"Tirumangai still lived the simple life of a devotee, eating only once a day prasadam cooked by his own hand and prepared from food he obtained by begging. He would also ensure that all the people in that area never suffered for want of food -only the rich lived in fear of the sage Tirumangai." (Life of Ramanujacarya by Naimisaranya das)

He stopped his operation when the temple was finished and got rid of his robbers when they wanted their share. At the end he said:

"Do not feel concerned for these men. After all the service they have rendered, surely Lord Ranganatha will protect them. Is it not better for them to leave the world at this time than to continue living as robbers? Now let us all pass the remaining days of our lives in the service of Lord Ranganatha, for our purpose in adopting the robbers lifestyle has been fulfilled."[/quote]

The only problem with this story is that it is fake, or at best a whitewashed myth. See here:
http://ramanuja.org/sri/Journal/Tirumangai1995 And here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thirumangai_Alvar -------------------

In the official Sri Vaishnava lore, Lord Vishnu and his consort personally came to earth to save him frome the LIFE OF SIN, thus proving one more time that Antinomianism is a life of sin.

manasi, please quote me where do I blaspheme anyone. I only point out differences. If you dont like it, its not my problem.

One sided argument? I gave two cases - Sri Rama and Tirumagai Alvar - as illustrations. You misunderstood that I advocate the latter.

First you asked for quotes about NM, when you got plenty, you complain of cut and paste... that tells a lot about your character.

I met NM twice. Once I stayed in Kesavaji GM for three days.

Rediculous examples? Like what? Before you choose to offend Tirumangai Alvar, think twice.
Itihasas and Puranas also contain transcendental stories of the Lord and His devotees. Does that mean theyre irrelevant to us?

Naimisaranya das writes in Introduction: "The main source for the life of Ramanuja is a book called the Prapannamrta, written in Sanskrit by Anantacarya, a descendant of Andhrapurna."
Do you have a specific confirmation of version with Kumudavali from traditional sources and refutation of Prapannamrta account?

[quote][cite] VEDA:[/cite]Naimisaranya das writes in Introduction: "The main source for the life of Ramanuja is a book called the Prapannamrta, written in Sanskrit by Anantacarya, a descendant of Andhrapurna."
Do you have a specific confirmation of version with Kumudavali from traditional sources and refutation of Prapannamrta account?[/quote]

I am not an expert on Alvars but in all Sri Vaishnava theological texts I have read the criminal activities of Tirumangai Alvar are condemned as a life of sin from which he was saved by Lord Narayana himself, proving once and for all that such activities are NOT pleasing to the Lord. This is the undisputed conclusion of the Vaishnava community at large. ---------------------------- Prapannamrita is not considered a shastra by the Vaishnavas - it is more or less a book of stories with a moral, a very popular type of literature in India even today. Some of its stories do not correspond with other sources on Alvars history which are considered more authoritative by the Sri Vaishnavas.

VEDA you need to read twice, I am not complaining about the story of Tirumagai Alvar or offending Tirumagai Alvar, its the false way in which you use it and you only tell half the story. What is your point anyway that we can be highway robbers? No its definitely not the story just your logic is all wrong in how you apply it. Its Ridiculous to present that story as an example of how we can be highway robbers as long as we donate every penny to Krishna, totally ridiculous!

So you met NM did you? and did you present your thesis of how different he is to SP to him? I bet you were all dandavats and pranams.

[Yes in fact Iskcon Colo River Farm was in NSW it had been maintained by a community of devotees for decades was sold off by Prabha Vishnu swami, its one thing to be sold out by the banking organisations its another to be sold out by your own GBC rep.]

[One of the biggest farms Iskcon ever had 27,000 acre farm New Gaudadesh was in the river-land area near Broken Hill, went under during Bhavanandas reign in the 80s sold to China scientists for research.]

[But SGD never responds to this stuff because all he and VEDA are interested in doing is presenting a one sided argument so they can feel justified in Blaspheming a Gaudiya Vaisnava..........]
In reply to you ....you are right manasi seva ,about Colo river TEMPLE Prabhu! It was a huge waste of a wonderful temple which my freinds and i helped to maintain and paid for!
However in his defense when i recently talked to Prabhuvishnu swami ,i realised he was simply beyound his depthat the time when Bhavannada fell down!He was unable to adjust things....because he was a book distributor not a Sankirtan devotee like us!He failed to really connect with us.....he seemed to be made from a different fabricthan our guru ....so he failed in getting our support.
Faced with the immense obstacle of continuing on paying huge temple maintaince payments and weekly prasadam bills of over $10,000 to $20,000 per week for each temple probably scared the hell out of him!So something had to give!Which was also was the result of New Gaudadesh.
But none of these were a huge financial losss ....like what has happened to the local Narayanna maharaja temple project.Prabhu-vishnu swami merely brought new farm project and north sydney temple....fitting into his particular budget and mood!
Yes i do not agree with his actions back then ...since i helped build a beautiful marble temple with many Prabhupadas disciples.However he is our Prabhu...i am not in full vision,like he was!
But i ask you personally how can you be a Vaisnava when you steal other gurus neophyte devotees?Why not make them yourself? Because Narayanna maharaja and his humble team,which mostly consist of our ex-godbrothers are not empowered by our Srila PRABHUPADA!
He will not be able to do what we did in our yatra....even his own people are burnt from losing their laxmi invested in their temple!You need ten-fifteen years of huge endeavour to create these wonderful temples!Which they have proved they do not have the stomach for!
We were indeed empowered....yes we made huge mistakes,but we flew....we created huge and powerful temples like sydney,melbourne,Auckland New Govardhana and colo-river from scratch!
Raising and liberating huge amonts of Laxmi from the demons,for immense book distribution.We literally changed how iskcon is perceived in our yatra ....by even the demons!We are now the good guys prabhu!Finally in my own opinion,having studied the facts presented over the last ten odd years ....i am afraid to suggest i do not agree with your veiw that Narayanna maharaja is a Vaisnava!....in simple terms i offer a quote from our Iskcon Founder-Archarya...SrilaPrabhupada A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada, March 1968, letter to Hrsikesha:
"I am greatly surprised for Bon Maharajas initiating you in spite of his knowing that you are already initiated by me. So it is deliberate transgression of Vaisnava etiquette and otherwise a deliberate insult to me. I do not know why he has done like this but no Vaisnava will approve of this offensive action. ......So why is NARAYANNA maharaja performing this Non-vaisnava behaviour ?Infact it seems he has made it his regular preaching strategy!I would humbly suggest it is because he is simply not a VAISHNAVA....!

Again, Im not trying to claim that his activities were proper (thats obvious from the end of the story) and I dont advocate them. How many times do I have to mention it for you, manasi? I presented that as an example of antinomianism.
If I quote an account from Hitlers life, youll call me a Nazi, manasi? That seems to be your logic.

Im concerned if this specific account from Prapannamrta, considered one of the closest sources on Ramanujas life, is genuine or not.

My thesis? No thesis, these are just straight quotes.
How much did you bet? You lost.

I dont bet or gamble VEDA its against the four regulative principles, remember? Like I said in NMs presence you would not be bold enough to present one of your grapevine quotes.

It was you who mentioned betting, thus my reaction.

Oh, now its grapevine quotes... (put a smiley of your choice here) Can you present anything refuting them?

Sri Govinda Prabhu may want to consider being more careful with his arguments.

He has told us that the giving of a new name constitutes initiation (as per Jadurani/Syamarani).

And he has given us Prabhupadas quote from the letter to Hrsikesha, stating that it is a violation of Vaishnava etiquette to reinitiate someone elses disciple.

Well, lets not forget that when Bon Maharajas student Ratin Krishna das approached Srila Prabhupada, Prabhupada reinitiated him as Radhanath das.

Sri Govinda Prabhu cant have it both ways. Either Srila Prabhupada is by his own words an offender who chose to play "tit for tat" with Bon Maharaja, or else -- if Srila Prabhupada is not an offender -- names alone dont constitute initiation and Jadurani/Syamarani remains the initiated disciple of Srila Prabhupada.

Grapevine quotes dont need refuting, they are the same as gramin katha (Village Talk) they have no basis in fact just hear say, usually its old woman that have nothing better to do with their lives so they engage in gramin katha.

My new friend.. tattva das
Her spiritual master is His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada, the founder-acarya of ISKCON, and world-famous preacher of Krsna Consciousness and Vedic culture, and the saintly spiritual master of millions of spiritual seekers. Soon after meeting him, she was initiated and given the name Jadurani dasi. (Later on, in 1992, he inspired his spiritual successor, Srila Narayana Maharaja, to give her the additional spiritual name of Syamarani dasi, and she became one of his first few disciples.)...
THIS WONDERFUL QUOTE EXISTS PLAINLY TO ILLUSTRATE TO THESE WHO ARE WILLING TO SEE THE DEMONIAC LENGTHS THESE SAD DEVOTEES WILL GO TO CHEAT US ALL!....
NOTICE HOW THE WORDS ...SRILA PRABHUPADAS.... .HIS SPIRITUAL SUCCESSOR,srila Narayanna maharaja......SHE BECAME ONE OF HIS FIRST FEW DISCIPLES!......This can be found in its entire form at the site Hare Krishna..Bhakti art,windows to the spiritual realm......if you follow the following website ...you will see

http://www.bhaktiart.net/?page=index&action=read&news_id=5&from=page=indexhttp:

Are you spamming with the same comment here as well?

MY new friend tattva das,please explain the actual context of Srila Prabhupadasinvolvement in this possible dispute with BON maharaja....if possible please provide the full context of the pastime!Possibly you could disprove our guru ......!However my intent with the quote was that Narayanna maharaja was systematically reinitiating everyone...even wives while their husbands are not present!Even willing to possibly break the family apart ,as long as he steals these neophyte devotees from ISKCON!.....Infact this mood seemed to be an Antinomianism sort of mood....within a vaisnava context to me.He seems intent [ narayanna maharaja ]....where by he was willing to destroy all devotion culture to accomplish his own ends!
Especially since he attacked BR SHRIDHAR SWAM in the last years of his existence in this realm.This unfortunate event ,seemingly brought about by NARAYANNA MAHARAJAS taking shelter of a certain caste brahmanas and sahaja-ism mentality.Where by he encouraged neophyte devotees to meditate on the sublime pastimes of radha and krishna!

No borokrishna das ...just informing a new participant!

manasi, you didnt establish these quotes as grapevine. Proclamations mean nothing.

[quote][cite] sri_govinda_das:[/cite]MY new friend tattva das,please explain the actual context of Srila Prabhupadasinvolvement in this possible dispute with BON maharaja....if possible please provide the full context of the pastime![/quote]

"Full context"? You can get the gist from Radhanath Swamis autobiography. He was given the name "Ratin Krishna" by Swami Bon, in whose ashram he lived for a while. Later, Srila Prabhupada changed his name to "Radhanath".

VEDA take a step back, you never established your statement as quotes remember:

I asked you:"Do you have specific quotes VEDA? or just heard something on the grape vine, you know like a throw a little mud it may just stick? I mean you either know something or you dont. Why just offer up innuendos?"

Your response was: "Read me carefully: GM groups are in disagreement _with NM_ (his approach). The devotee who mentioned this is trustworthy enough for me. Hes neutral regarding NM."

Looks very much the grapevine variety to me!

Narayana Maharaja Confidential Secrets of Bhajana, page 22:
"Every-thing is there, but dont think that we can realize all this by chanting Krishna-nama alone. We must chant nama-mantra (gayatri) as well, if we want full understanding and realization of what is in the Hare Krishna mantra."

Srila Sridhar Maharaj (Gaudiya Math) Sri Guru and His Grace:
"We accept the mantra only to help the nama-bhajan, the worship of the holy name. Otherwise it may not be necessary at all. It has been judged in such a way. The name alone can do everything for a person. It is full and complete. The (gayatri) mantra helps us to do away with the aparadhas, offenses, and the abhasa, or hazy conception. The (gayatri) mantra comes to help us only so far."

Please accept these initial QUOTES MANASI-SEVA.... as a further illustration of how NARAYANNA MAHARAJA is in strong disagreement with A C Bhactivedanta swami Prabhupada ,Srila Sridhar maharaja ,Srila Bhaktisiddanta saraswati thakura ,Srila Puri maharaja and Triparari swami................Sorry my quotes are not Grapevine variety. Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura, Prabhupader Patravali, Chapter 1:
"There is no point in making a separate effort to artificially remember the Lords form, qualities and pastimes. The Lord and His name are one and the same. This will be understood clearly when the coverings in our hearts are removed. By chanting without offenses you will personally realize that all perfections come from the Holy Name."
Srila Puri Maharaja, (no longer physically present) Lecture, Vrndavana 11th Nov. 1994:
"The only thing that can give you prema is pure chanting. There is no other process which can bring you to the level of prema. You may feel that sometimes a certain attraction, but if this is not steady, you cannot interpret it as lobha, which is so rare. You cannot just find it anywhere." I will be pleased to offer signifigant further quotes of how other gaudiya matha temples are in disageement with Narayanna maharajas flavour ,his preaching style and even his siddhanta...his conclusions on how to attain pure bhakti!......Is this an example of a sort of spiritual antinomianism,where by he disregards the gurus mood and previous teachings?