Pariprashnena — Q&A Archive

My dear hashama ,please accept my kind regards for your spiritual advancement. Welcome to krishnas family. Please forgive my aggressive mood on other pages of praiprashnena.com.However it was my duty to infact protect the reputation of my gurus spiritual legacy....The ISKCON society.
You ask......
Would I be expected to eventually choose a spiritual master to initiate me? Would most or all the devotees living in that center have the same spiritual master and if so, wouldnt there be tremendous pressure on me to become his disciple as well?
Since i am not conversant with the nearest temple near you....i cannot honestly answer for your environment,however since i have been in 12 temples during my devotional life i can give you a reasonable picture!
Myself i was inclined to choose a guru because i thought he was truly wonderful and i grew to love him after serving him sincerly for nine months.After which time my personal mood grew to offering a genuine surrendered mood and service attitude.Sincerity grew within me naturally as a result of following the sadhana bhakti process and as a consequence surrendered more in a humble offering to try and please guru and krishna.
Usually the local devotees would be enthusiastic to push you in their gurus direction naturally,however these days there generally is several gurus with whom you can develop a sweet freindship with .Hopefully the same sort of environment will exist .....at your local iskcon temple.
In the Auckland temple where i attend every sunday ,janananda maharaja,bir krishna swami,ramai swami,mukunda goswami and devamrita goswami regularly visit their disciples and followers.However we probably have another ten gurus who visit on a less regular basis to see their followers.Which include jayapataka swami,indradumya swami and radhanatha swami to name a few!
So you will not find any signifigant pressure to take initiation,however by cultivating friendships with your temple president and senior devotees things get adjusted naturally.
Obviously i see it differently because i took diksa initiation some thirty years ago.Also i grew up in devotional service in an atmosphere where we had many older devotees to share with....which are called siksa gurus.In my case these people literally guided me,encouraged me and generally acted as my seniors .It was these Great Souls who brought me down to size when they felt i was out of line.And it was these older brothers and sisters who give us the initial encouragement necessary to trust what krishna has assigned as our spiritual quota.....
Personally you will not find an Archarya in the same nature and sublime realisation as his Divine grace Srila Prabhupada in iskcon or even within devotional service anywhere!HE WAS UNIQUE .....so what can we iskcon offer now!Well i was fortunate to accept several gurus ,both siksa and diksa who i revered and loved.
Personally i have been asking and receiving competent answers for thirty years,which have satisfied me and enabled me to progressively develop my faith in the supreme personalitys of godhead...radha and krishna.My own siksa gurus have enabled me to progress,so certainly we are able to satisfy those whom the supersoul encourages also. We can accept a guru personally who is situated in transcendence....but that is up to ones personal vision and appreciation being suitably informed in the conclusions of sastra....which is the vedic literatures..your servant

All glories to Srila Prabhupada! Hare Krishna.

Dear Hashama,

Hare Krishna. ISKCON is a wonderful, unique, transcendental institution designed to help all souls in all stages of interest, in various degrees of desire to gradually reach the supreme destination. You will be expected to conform to idelogy and behaviors currently operating below your level of sukriti, which will give you pain and confusion.

It appears from what you have written, that your eternal Divine Guru is very much with you and present in your understanding and your life due to your pastlives involvement in devotional service under a bona fide Sri Guru Acarya. If you really only want Him and Sri Krishna, just cry and pray and He will reveal Himself to you. He will surely manifest Himself externally, He will come to you. This is what He does, it is what He wants to do. He hears our prayers and He responds. Hare Krishna.

All the best

> Hare Krishna. ISKCON is a wonderful, unique, transcendental institution designed to help all souls in all stages of interest, in various degrees of desire to gradually reach the supreme destination. You will be expected to conform to idelogy and behaviors currently operating below your level of sukriti, which will give you pain and confusion.

Is it only me who sees a contradiction in these two sentences?

Apparently paradoxical but no contradiction.
Ysvt.

It appears that maah! is also smoking banana leaves...LMHO! For once VEDA we have agreement. My thanks on Nrsingha d post above was a mistake, I clicked the wrong button (no I wasnt smoking banana leaves), and yes its a complete contradiction.

Hashama in some ways you are very fortunate, if you were living 200 miles from a temple in the 1960s then unless you moved closer you would have little access to information. With the modern age and the Internet at least you can converse with other devotees in forums, download books, visit websites, watch live cams of temple programs etc etc.

Before you think about running away and becoming a shaved up Gaudiya Vaisnava, living in the temple, there is a lot that you can do that will help and prepare you for any path that you may take. Remember the goal is to not to become a brahmana its is to develop love of god, the devine couple Radha and Krishna. This can be achieved in any ashram (student, house-holder, retired house-holder or monk)

Firstly I would recommend that you make Srila Prabhupada who was infallible as your shiksha guru, meaning take his instruction by reading his books. Which you have already started to do.

Secondly you should consider a broad vision and take alot of time before choosing a personal disksha guru, as it is a spritual contract and should not be taken lightly.

Next is to ask the question you have asked, the most important question:

>>are any of the "available" gurus actually on such an exalted level?

There is much debate on this in Iskcon and everywhere including this forum as you have noticed. Iskcons original 11 gurus have nearly all fallen down and many have left the movement, and the gurus that followed these have been selected on very flaky criteria and some of those gurus have also fallen down, not all but some. However hope springs eternal.

Iskcon of course is there: http://news.iskcon.org/

Besides Iskcon you also need to consider the wider community of Gaudiya Vaisnavas Including

Sri Chaitanya Sarasvath Math, started by BR Sridhar Maharaja, a disciple of Bhaktisiddanta Maharaja, Srila Prabhupadas guru. Srila Prabhupada considered him to be his shiksha Guru. BR Sridhar Maharaja has departed from this planet but his math is now headed by Sri Govinda Maharaja. Many iskcon devotees especially Srila Prabhupada disciples left Iskcon and have taken shelter in this math (temple), but this math also has many thousands of devotees that have never had anything to do with Iskcon.

Website: http://www.scsmath.com/index.html

and also

Srila Bhaktivedanta Narayana Gosvami Maharaja a disciple of Srila Bhakti Prajnana Kesava Gosvami who gave Srila Prabhupada his Sannyas, there is much controversy over Narayan Maharaja as you have seen in this forum. He is currently very popular and is attracting many devotees from Iskcon, and he has many disciples that also have had nothing to do with Iskcon.

Website: http://www.purebhakti.com/

This is a life time journey and maybe a multi-life time journey, have patience, be discerning and consult your inner intuition, when something doesnt feel right it usually isnt, but also realise after life times of pursuing material life, all of this will seem quite alien at first. Also read, not just read but study. The Bhagavad Gita first, followed by Srimad Bhagavatam, then Chaitanya Charitamrta. Srila Prabhupadas books are the keys to the door, without studying them diligently little progress will be made.

I hope this helps, Hare Krishna and Jai Shree Radhey!

Manasi- and yes its a complete contradiction.

Not true!

Ysvt.

HK!

Only complete in its like a transcendental paradox that some seem unable to grasp. Its a little subtle,alright!
Ysvt.

Im not sure but u maybe should think long and hard before u jump in with the neo-GM.

http://krishna.org/srila-prabhupada-on-his-godbrothers/

Also ISKCON has much better facility etc which could be helpful in the beginning IMHO.

http://www.krishna.com/

my advice would be wait for next self-effugent Sri Guru Acarya.(I am pretty sure he will appear within ISKCON,in some lifetime at least) Untill then take shelter of the person bhagavam SP and the book bhagavatam.

SP himself waited 11 or 12 years before taking formal diksa.

All the best.

Ysvt.

Gauranga!

Ps- The commander-in-chief will send his man. An officer in Lord Chaitanyas army. Hopefully one of many!

The Officer Ki Jaya!
:o)

Yes like trancendental banana leaves maybe. Srila Prabhupadas Darshan to you.

Thank u.

Ysvt.

Also;

In this verse uc0u346 ru299 la Ru363 pa Gosvu257 mu299 advises the devotee to be INTELLIGENT enough to distinguish between the kaniu7779 u7789 ha-adhiku257 ru299 , madhyama-adhiku257 ru299 and uttama-adhiku257 ru299 . The devotee should also know his own position and should not try to imitate a devotee situated on a higher platform......A neophyte Vaiu7779 u7751 ava or a Vaiu7779 u7751 ava situated on the intermediate platform can also accept disciples, but such disciples must be on the same platform, and IT SHOULD BE UNDERSTOOD that they cannot advance very well toward the ultimate goal of life under his INSUFFICIENT GUIDANCE.... Therefore a disciple should be careful to accept an uttama-adhiku257 ru299 as a spiritual master.

{NOI verse 5 (purport)}

[quote][cite] Hashama:[/cite]
Assuming I eventually do get initiated by one of the ISKCON authorized gurus --- would I be expected to worship him on the same level that Srila Prabhupadas disciples worshiped/worship him? [/quote]

Iskcon is now a little bit less guru-centric than before, but you should still look to Bhagavad-gita for clues: out of some 700 verses only a handful relate to the need for a guru. BG is Krishna-centric and so should be your life.
Dont be too hasty to get initiation. Get to know your guru very well, and above all... trust your heart and your instinct. If you have any doubts - dont take initiation from that person.

Thanks for all the input. After reading all the above comments carefully Ive made my decision. Im becoming a Jehovahs Witness. (just kidding).
I think my best course of action at this point is to continue studying Srila Prabhupadas books and chanting Hare Krishna. I ordered japa beads in the mail a few months ago and have been chanting six rounds every morning. It takes me about an hour. Does that sound about right? It almost seems like the first round or two is needed to "warm up" because my mind is all over the place -- and then by the third round I usually get into a flow -- a sort of meditation -- the mental static begins to fade and I start to hear the vibrations more clearly. Its an amazing process. As for the principles -- I became a strict vegetarian in my early teens, I dont get high (but I do drink coffee) and Ive been celibate for the past five years. It would be nice to get a taste of what its like to take part in a Sankirtana party or to be living with a group of devotees in a temple with deity worship and daily classes, kirtans and artiks (sp?). So all in all I think its best that I wait for some time until I really feel Im ready to move into some temple. Maybe Ill save up and go to India first -- to Vrindaban, Mayapura and Jagannatha Puri. Yeah -- Ill wait until Im ready for ISKCON or ISKCON is ready for me .. and depend on my inner guide (intuition, gut, Supersoul) to know when that time will come.

Hashama, you are very much on the right track. Be patient, Krishna will arrange everything and slowly things will fall in place. Regarding japa - remember, this is meditation on the sacred sound, not a numeric chore that has to be done in order to make progress. Listen intently, as if you were hearing the mantra for a first time and you want to memorize it. One good round chanted properly is better than 6 chanted merely out of duty.

> but you should still look to Bhagavad-gita for clues: out of some 700 verses only a handful relate to the need for a guru.

Its true only a handful of Gita verses relate to guru, but I think it is very significant that the question of identifying a liberated soul is one of the questions that Arjuna asks twice in the Gita - How do I tell who is a person who has reached liberation? (i.e. "What are the symptoms of one whose consciousness is thus merged in transcendence? How does he speak, and what is his language? How does he sit, and how does he walk?" 2.54 and, "By which symptoms is one known who is transcendental to these three modes? What is his behavior?," 14.21.) Remember when your mother used to say, "Do I have to tell you twice? then you knew she meant for you to listen real good? Here Krishna has told us twice how to tell a person who has reached the highest platform. Whether we are fortunate enough to meet such a person is another story but at least we know what to be on the lookout for.

[quote][cite] deena:[/cite]Its true only a handful of Gita verses relate to guru, but I think it is very significant that the question of identifying a liberated soul is one of the questions that Arjuna asks twice in the Gita - How do I tell who is a person who has reached liberation? (i.e. "What are the symptoms of one whose consciousness is thus merged in transcendence? How does he speak, and what is his language? How does he sit, and how does he walk?" 2.54 and, "By which symptoms is one known who is transcendental to these three modes? What is his behavior?," 14.21.) [/quote]

Well, this precisely proves my point. In both cases Arjuna is asking not about how he can recognize a liberated guru, but how he can recognize himself becoming liberated.

One does not need to recognise themselves becoming liberated. The dawning of liberated consciousness is a self-evident answer in itself. I cant follow where u going with that one Kula prabhu. Could u clarify please. I would like to understand more this essential topic.

Also;

http://www.harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/02-10/editorials5793.htm

[quote][cite] Nrsingha d:[/cite]One does not need to recognise themselves becoming liberated. The dawning of liberated consciousness is a self-evident answer in itself. I cant follow where u going with that one Kula prabhu. Could u clarify please. I would like to understand more this essential topic.
[/quote]

If you read just the verses preceding BG 2.54 and 14.21 it is very clear that Arjuna is asking about being able to recognize his own progress on the path towards liberation. These verses have nothing to do with him looking for a realized guru. Such interpretation is patently absurd, especially since his guru is Lord Krishna standing in front of him.

When Prabhupada was asked if Gurvastakam verses apply to him, he said it was a personal prayer of Visvanatha Cakravarti to his own guru. Dont be impersonal, as if all prayers to a guru apply to all the gurus.

[quote][cite] borokrsnadasa:[/cite]When Prabhupada was asked if Gurvastakam verses apply to him, he said it was a personal prayer of Visvanatha Cakravarti to his own guru. Dont be impersonal, as if all prayers to a guru apply to all the gurus.[/quote]

ur conclusion does not make sense as far as I can see. Why to we sing it?

[quote][cite] Kula-pavana:[/cite][quote][cite] Nrsingha d:[/cite]One does not need to recognise themselves becoming liberated. The dawning of liberated consciousness is a self-evident answer in itself. I cant follow where u going with that one Kula prabhu. Could u clarify please. I would like to understand more this essential topic.
[/quote]

If you read just the verses preceding BG 2.54 and 14.21 it is very clear that Arjuna is asking about being able to recognize his own progress on the path towards liberation. These verses have nothing to do with him looking for a realized guru. Such interpretation is patently absurd, especially since his guru is Lord Krishna standing in front of him.[/quote]

Arjuna was asking on behalf of us the conditioned souls,was he not?
Ysvt.

> Why to we sing it?

come again...

[quote][cite] Nrsingha d:[/cite]
Arjuna was asking on behalf of us the conditioned souls,was he not?
Ysvt.[/quote]

Yes he was. But the question still is about our own progress on the path of liberation. Remember all those people in Iskcon who thought themselves liberated? They missed both the question and the answer.

No ,they knew they were not liberated but went ahead and had Acarya profile anyway. Which is worse then been mentally deluded. Like that! Isnt it?

Anyones in the GM guilty of the same? ;-)

All glories to Srila Prabhupada! Hare Krishna. Please accept my humble obeisances.

It is so much nicer when someone who doesnt understand an instruction or a point either simply ignores it and involves himself in things he can understand, or admits he doesnt understand and asks for clarification.

To assume that ones inability to understand a thing automatically means the other is mistaken, is not going to benefit anyone. (Example: Think of a first-grader, whose sukriti is that he knows 2 plus 2 equals 4. If that first grader publicly insults a tenth-grader (who already knows 2 plus 2 equals 4) but now has sukriti to claim that A plus B equals C, the first-grader is perpetuating ignorance for himself and annoying the upper-grade group.) Accusing others of misbehavior, even though done in a joking mood, is not much appreciated by those who take pariprashnena seriously.

Nrsingha d is right on the point when he says, "In this verse uc0u346 ru299 la Ru363 pa Gosvu257 mu299 advises the devotee to be INTELLIGENT enough to distinguish between the kaniu7779 u7789 ha-adhiku257 ru299 , madhyama-adhiku257 ru299 and uttama-adhiku257 ru299 . The devotee should also know his own position and should not try to imitate a devotee situated on a higher platform." Srila Prabhupada said that every man thinks others think like he does, so this is not easy, but in our society it should be attempted, if we are to advance.

Sri Krishna explains in Srimad Bhagavad Gita As It Is, that "As they surrender, I reward accordingly." Thus it is understood that there are different levels and He deals with each of us on our own level. In ISKCON it is assumed that the older devotees are the most advanced. But many of the newer devotees are more advanced--they are older devotees reborn in new bodies, in more favorable circumstances. What sukriti they earned in the past life is still with them. Srila Prabhupada said the third generation will be the real devotees. That means the children of the children of the first generation and some of those coming from outside the society in the third generation. Our "wonderful, unique, transcendental institution" accomidates all levels of advancement, like a school has from kindergarten up to University level students. Educational Instutution is one, all levels are important, all are valuable, so many levels exist within it and Sri Krishna gives each person what they need and deserves within that institution. The society is currently being run by first generation new men whose ideology and behaviors are below deenas, Nrsimgha d and Hasamas level, so they should respect it for what it is, while crying and praying for the post-graduate Teacher to come to them.

Many years ago one sadhu arrived at Sri Sri Krishna Balaram Mandir in Sri Vrindaban Dhama. He was penniless, he wore only one cloth. He asked the devotees if he could meet Srila Prabhupada but was denied. Later he managed to meet Srila Prabhupada in his room, who immediately recognized him as a liberated soul and pure devotee, and the sadhu recognized and honored Srila Prabhupada as his Sri Guru, eternal spiritual master. Srila Prabhupada quoted the following verse at the time of giving sannyasa to that devotee, '93The Supreme Personality of Godhead said: One who is unattached to the fruits of his work and who works as he is obligated, is in the renounced order of life, and he is the true mystic, not he who lights no fire and performs no duty.'94 He uttered this verse and said, '93He is a real sannyasi'94 and then gave him the sannyasa mantra and danda. Shortly thereafter, many sannyasis and GBC members started complaining, '93How has he taken sannyasa? He is a new man!'94 Then Srila Prabhupada told them, '93He is a devotee from his birth - you are new men!'94

Though Srila Prabhupada himself gave his transcendentally perfect verdict about the qualification of this sadhu, ISKCON did not accept or understand the difference between his sukriti and their own--they did not allow him to advise them and caused him trouble in his service. Later, they attempted to kick him out of ISKCON, at which time he entered into a divine trance of devotional samadhi and departed back to the Spiritual World.

PS This material world is blazing fire and our head is on fire. There should be urgency to come into contact with Sri Guru.

> they knew they were not liberated but went ahead and had Acarya profile anyway...

Now you spell okay, but do not make sense. Do you think that other acaryas knew they were liberated and only then accepted an acarya profile -- name a few? Acaryadeva?

> These verses have nothing to do with him looking for a realized guru.

I think these verses have immense value in the search for a self-realised guru. How can one apply, "Therefore a disciple should be careful to accept an uttama-adhikuc0u257 ru299 as a spiritual master." (NOI verse 5 purport) without knowing the symptoms described in BG 2.54 and 14.21? To ignore or discount these verses in ones search for a self-realised guru would simply be folly.

Three guys decide to drop out of society, go to a mountain cave, and do silent meditation. They find their cave and they begin their meditations. A year passes and there is a loud scuffling noise just outside the cave. One of them says, "I think that was a bear." Another year passes and another says, "no, youre wrong, I think it was a tiger." Then another year passes and the third in the group suddenly speaks up and says, "if you two guys insist on this incessant chatter, Im leaving."

maah! you are so way off subject look at the question in this thread and stop smoking banana leaves, it was a simple question, no need to give him an ecstasy crew answer.

I like your sense of humor Hashama, a few others around here could do with a dose of that...LMHO!

[quote][cite] Nrsingha d:[/cite]No ,they knew they were not liberated but went ahead and had Acarya profile anyway. Which is worse then been mentally deluded. Like that! Isnt it?

Anyones in the GM guilty of the same? ;-)[/quote]

It is hard to tell what is in someones heart. But when they fall down you know for sure they were not liberated.
I do not know GM that much, but in general I like what I see. I like some Iskcon gurus as well. A see lot of nice devotees - maybe not completely liberated but well on their way.

maah - at which time he entered into a divine trance of devotional samadhi and departed back to the Spiritual World.

Its His Divine Grace Om Vishnupada Sri Srimad Gaura Govinda Swami Maharaj, isnt it .
Now your story is complete.

Yes good point Kula-pavana it is not so much the institution you belong to, but what depth of bhakti you reach, the goal is not to become institution conscious but Krishna Conscious.

[quote][cite] manasi_seva:[/cite]Yes good point Kula-pavana it is not so much the institution you belong to, but what depth of bhakti you reach, the goal is not to become institution conscious but Krishna Conscious.[/quote]

yes but it does matter whu u r accepting as Acarya. Stick with the Founder-Acarya and his most sincere sisyas untill he sends another of his Officers.

This Is The Ascendency!

Bhaktisiddhanta made up (a new) parampara, and included only names that everyone accepts as acaryas. But none of these devotees ever consider themselves liberated. If someone thinks that he is liberated he is fallen, what are you talking about people? No bona fide acarya ascended by some formal to the seat of acarya, it was always by qualities that others perceive (not what he think he is).

I think Im understanding more about the difference between a siksha and diksha guru. I assume that by reading Srila Prabhupadas books and learning about Krishna from His writings (and I even ordered some tapes of his classes and with him leading kirtans and singing bhajans) that I am already, in some way, a siksha disciple of His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada???!!!?? As far as diksha goes -- the formal acceptance of and the getting initiated by someone -- well, whats really the rush? I mean --- I am eternal, arent I? I read that Srila Prabhupada didnt get initiated until years after he first met his spiritual master and he (Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakur) was right there present and alive in the traditional sense. I hope Im on the right track. It feels like I am because I feel very strongly the presence of Srila Prabhupada when Im reading his books and also his letters to disciples and best of all -- the transcribed tapes of all his classes and lectures. I like those especially because they are in their raw form without any editing. Even better than that is listening to a tape of Srila Prabhupada speaking and finding the transcript of that talk and following along reading while hearing. I guess thats the closest Ill ever get to actually sitting in some temple room and hearing him.

It sure would be nice though to be part of a community of like-minded people, go out chanting on the streets and turning other people on to Krishna consciousness. Someday ..... someday ......

This a good attitude. You should want to please Vaisnavas first and foremost, then you dont even have to worry if you are on the right track.

All glories to Srila Prabhupada. Hare Krishna. Please accept my humble obeisances.

"It feels like I am because I feel very strongly the presence of Srila Prabhupada when Im reading his books and also his letters to disciples and best of all -- the transcribed tapes of all his classes and lectures. I like those especially because they are in their raw form without any editing. Even better than that is listening to a tape of Srila Prabhupada speaking and finding the transcript of that talk and following along reading while hearing. I guess thats the closest Ill ever get to actually sitting in some temple room and hearing him."

This devotional attitude and practice will attract Him to reveal Himself to you more and more from within your heart and also to appear before you externally in His new, Divine form. See "Association takes place in the mind." in the post "What constitutes being a member of ISKCON?"

"I guess thats the closest Ill ever get to actually sitting in some temple room and hearing him."

You will be able to sit in front of Sri Guru Acarya and hear from him, but the concept is impossible for those who think he is dead and gone and who have filled His role as eternal spiritual master (who is expert at assisting the gopies) with unqualified persons. A crude, contrmporary example of succession with same function, but different features, is that of the Phantom. "When he died, his son took over the role of the Phantom, and such the mantle would be passed down to new generations, leaving people to give the mysterious figure nick-names such as "The Man Who Cannot Die",.. and "The Ghost Who Walks", believing him to be immortal."

Prabhu, many devotees work in the world, live at home and concentrate on their hearing and bhajan, maintain a home altar, visit the Temple, support the Temple finantially or otherwise, attend the festivals and Harinam programs, respect and make friendships with devotees. How to associate is described here. "The devotee on the intermediate level can distinguish between the different types of devotees.
Thus, as stated in the above Bhagavatam verse, he relates to them in the proper way so as to advance in sadhana-bhakti. Toward less advanced devotees he should show compassion; toward his equals he should show friendship; and to superior devotees he should offer all respect and services and hear their instructions submissively. He avoids the nondevotees."

Hare Krishna

I think you guys are... taking a strange approach... Take this passage from the bhagavad gita.

When one sees eternity in things that pass away and infinity in finite things, then one has pure knowledge.
But if one merely sees the diversity of things, with their divisions and limitations, then one has impure knowledge.
And if one selfishly sees a thing as if it were everything, independent of the one and the many, then one is in the darkness of ignorance.

Surely this passage refers to the guruhood of all who experience the brahman/atman from moment to moment. And that knowledge of the brahman/atman cannot simply come from attributing the atman/brahman relationship to gurus alone. This relationship can be experienced by all and it is what makes an individual a guru, its what brings the love and joy of every moment. Consider this.

To see a World in a grain of sand,
And a Heaven in a wild flower,
Hold Infinity in the palm of your hand,
And Eternity in an hour.

This testifies to the oneness of all things. To the oneness that can only be experienced through the realization of atman/brahman. A guru cannot make the inner journey for you, nobody can. The little self that we all experience can only become the big self through experience/realization. The atman/brahman is like a drop of water in an ocean. From this realization in every moment comes the fundamental truth of unity and love of all things. The guru you are sitting in front of is not a separate being, the guru is brahman just as you are brahman and all things are brahman. You have to rest in that awareness all times and love will come forth, bringing a true understanding of guruhood.

Please forgive me if i have misunderstood the entire conversation, i have a tendency of missing the point entirely :) please help me to understand if i have failed to understand. Thank you very much :) I love you all.

All, at this forum were into a practice that goes beyond liberation in monistic nirvisesa Brahman. On that level guru and disciple interact in a qualitatively different way than sitting next to each other, experiencing their Brahmanness. If youre interested, chek it out here. Hari Hari

Your chances of getting screwed are huge mate.Better wait as long as you can.Srila Prabhupad is well able to instruct you thru his books,tapes,letters etc.Have you read them all yet?

I made mistake of taking initiation from the low class materialist in the garb of the devotee.After a decade of suffering under his oppression I found out that he was masturbating since 1980 and on top of that he is a faggot.Amazingly if you are to come to him for initiation today he would most likely give it to you despite the fact that he is suicidal and extremely depressed all the time.Go figure.

In retrospect,it is my fault that I have not read all of the Srila Prabhupadas books,heard all of his classes etc.For me this whole experience if "taking initiation" was complete nightmare equivalent to selling my soul to the devil.I came out of it damaged in many ways,to say the least.

Same happened to many of my friends,to 2 of my brothers and my mother.All because we were stupid enough to fall for this nonsense.

If you choose a false guru you will go to hell together with him mate.Stay away.Learn from the pain of others.Dont be an idiot.You dont need to screw your life.

Read this post for more info on this issue:

http://www.harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/08-10/editorials6494.htm

humbly begging you

Jagannath das

Another very important consideration is :Are you ready to follow 4 regulative principles for the rest of life?Most that were thinking it to be easy failed miserably.Here is an idea.Test yourself for at least 10 years to see if you are ready to follow 4 regs sincerely,chant at least 16 rounds daily and ready all of the Srila Prabhupadas books at least 3 times.

After you have done that you will never be cheated like most of us were.You will be given the eyes to see who is who.You will not become cheap disciple of some cheap guru and end up broken and dejected.

After all,this is the example that Srila Prabhupada set himself.He waited for 11 years.So can you.Whats the rush anyway?

Thank you for your timely response VEDA :). Your response leaves me with a question. What is the relationship between guru and disciple if not brahman? This is a sincere question :) i am not the kind of person to ask many stupid questions just to try and trip people up. I ask out of sincerity :). Thank you for your response. I love you all :).

and how may someone go beyond brahman? :)

Brahman is actually differentiated. Passive nirvisesa Brahman is one aspect, Paramatma (Visnu) another and Bhagavan (Krsna) is the original one. Krsna performs eternal pastimes and Vaisnava guru introduces the disciple to them so he can enter them even in this lifetime. Read our books to learn more, starting with small ones like Upadesamrta.

thankyou for your response veda :) i will read upadesamrta. Thankyou very much :) peace and love xo

Veda, please tell me if this is the correct book you recommended for me :) thankyou xo

Yes. The author is Rupa Gosvami.

Krsna bhakti life after life - the ideal of pure Vaishnavas - was prominently taught by Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu in His Siksastaka. Less known fact is that the same desire, beyond impersonal moksa, was proclaimed by Adi Sankaracarya in his Sri Krsnastaka (9):

yadA tadA yathA tathA tathaiva kRSNasatkathA |
mayA sadaiva gIyatAM tathA kRpA vidhIyatAM |
pramANikASTakadvayaM japatyadhItya yaH pumAna |
bhavetsa nandanandane bhave bhave subhaktimAna ||

O Lord Krishna! Please bless me so that I may sing your glories and pastimes, regardless of the position I am in. Anyone who studies or recites these two authoritative ashtakas will be blessed with devotion to Krishna in every rebirth. (Adi Sankaracarya: Sri Krsnastaka 9)

the whole text: http://www.hindunet.org/stotras/itx/krishna8.txt

Janmastami katha file:

http://www.veda.harekrsna.cz/library/KrsnaJanmastami.zip

Happy Janmastami to everyone!

Thank you very much Veda :). To my delight i have finished rereading the Upanishads by Juan Mascaro, penguin classics edition. Beautiful, and to my delight i have managed to dig out three books that i was given by my grandfather a few months ago. Bhagavad gita as it is by bhaktivedanta swami prabhupada, the science of self realization by bhaktivedanta swami prabhupada and krishna the supreme personality of godhead by bhaktivedanta swami prabhupada. so i have plenty to meditate and contemplate on and i have ordered Upadesamrta and look forward to its arrival :) peace and love xo

Youre welcome. These three books by Srila Prabhupada are the right ones to continue with after reading his translation of Upadesamrta. He also translated Isa Upanisad, one of the major Upanisads. Therere also 14 Upanisads sometimes cetegorized as Vaisnava: Gopalatapani, Krsna, Narayana, Mahanarayana, Vasudeva, Nrsimhatapani, Kalisantarana (explanation of Hare Krsna mantra), etc. Theyre found online at celextel.org etc. Happy reading.

Jay Sri Krsna Janmastami!

Hashama, maybe you could also try traditional Indian Gaudiya Vaisnava lineages that existed long before Srila Prabhupada brought GV to the West...

Myself i have faith in iskcon and gaudiya matha since we are part of a siksa line where diksa is important ,though not the essential all consuming facet of spiritual life many suggest!
Bhaktivinoda takura suggests diksa-guru-krpa kori mantra-upadesa,koriyadekham krishna tattva nirdesa,siksa-guru-brnda krpa koriya apar.sadhaka sikhan sadaher anga-sar..., The initiating spiritual mastere(diksa-guru) shows his causeless mercy by giving the disciples instructions in chanting the mantra.By so doing,he pionts his disciples in the direction of the truths pertaining to the supreme lord.... ,Sri Krishna.
I consider the numerous instructing spiritual masters(siksa-guru) to be more important,for they show more mercy by training the sadakhas in all the essential aspects of sadahana bhakti........Kalyana--kalpataru....bhaktivinoda takura...

Secondly since you have obvious problems with a guru whom is not Srila Prabhupada ,but are taking siksa from Srila Prabhupada through his books.... merely develop a personal relationship with a guru whom humbly accepts your personal fears and doubts .Then he can facilitate your progressive devotional service to suit your weaknesses and inabilities to see him as a qualified absolute guru personally.
Even if one is a ritvik-proxy advocate if the guru accepts you, and you accept diksa you are on the right path .Eventually you will be rectified to the proper vaisnava understandings,merely by pleasing your siksa spiritual masters(temple president and senior devotees ) and your diksa guru.Hopefully this helps....

I consider the numerous instructing spiritual masters(siksa-guru) to be more important,for they show more mercy by training the sadakhas in all the essential aspects of sadahana bhakti........Kalyana--kalpataru....bhaktivinoda takura...[/quote]

Do you mean to say that the training provided by Srila Prabhupada was not as important in your spiritual life?Was his mercy too little for you so you had to look for more elsewhere?

[quote][cite] Hashama:[/cite]I am not initiated. I was born a few years after Srila Prabhupada departed and I became interested in Krishna consciousness when I found a Bhagavad-gita As It Is
...
Now ... suppose I decide to drop everything and move into an ISKCON temple. [/quote]

Hare Krishna... Well, I think your situation is similar to mine. What I see is that ISKCON is a very big organization, but in any case A.C.Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada is main authority there. One cannot grow without association of devotees. Also you say "to drop everything and move into an ISKCON temple". Probably not best idea. Even there yould have to do devotional service, but yould have to do it even better than at home. Yes on one hand you can be happier that there is prasadam, deities, many programs, but on other hand - you are not expected that you live there material life... Are you ready to become immediately fully Krishna consciousness and move to ISKCON? I am not sure about you, but I see that ISKCON usually do not advice to move immediately to temple, so you need some time, it may even take 5-10 years till you can know for sure that Krishna consciousness is best among many other religions, spiritual ways. I considered that vegetarianism is very important. Hardly one other religion can offer this as good as in Krishna consciousness. Did you read Steven Rosens - Diet For Transcendence: Vegetarianism and the World Religions?
http://www.amazon.com/Diet-Transcendence-Vegetarianism-World-Religions/dp/1887089055
it compares other religion and says - practically every religion forbids meat-eating. But you can see for yourself - Krishna consciousness indeed seems to be more logical: even if food is vegetarian - you offer that to dieties. But you can also do that at home. It is better to start with your own character at place where you are than trying to change yourself by moving in new environment and leaving family, home etc and moving to ISKCON. How long can you be there? You would have to work/serve - thus you can earn prasadam etc. Or yould have to distribute books, go on sankirtanas. Thats great, but if you are just some 30 years (if you are born just after Prabhupadas departure), so what about your family?
There is responsibility for children - to help parents when they gel elder. Also in Vedas. So you can help your family by making them vegetarians, even thought they may remain someone of other religion.

And as for " I decide to drop everything and move into an ISKCON temple"
yes, I also wanted even to leave my country and go to India, probably even Vrindavana ISKCON. But what I see - there are even some my friends who went to India, Vrindavana, were there for some time, but now they are more interested in some tantra/advaita etc - because they were considered to be in Vrindavana, but they were not associating with devotees actually. So what is use of going to holy places like temple - if you do not take opportunity of association with devotees? If you do not take instructions from them? There even such stories that someone has bona-fide spiritual master, but after being with him for many years (say, 20 years), he still do not understand actually Krishna consciousness. But on other hand - someone may be a devotee in distance - he doesnt come too close to devotees, keeps respectful distance (literally, and also in other meaning) -
so he avoids doing vaishnava aparadha, avoids temple/holy-place aparadha etc.
Human in Kali-yuga lives around 100 years. So there are grihastha, vanaprastha and sannyasa ashramas as well. Brahmacarya is beginning, but for one it is not a must to leave everything and go to temple. This is done only when family are very much aganst devotional service. But remember even greatest devotees - say, Prahlada Maharaja, Haridasa Thakura. Did they leave everything and go to temple? Rather what we see - more important in Krishna consciosuness is that you have to share what you have (with those who are probably younger or less spiritually advanced, suppose your parents if your family are nondevotees), and become friend with those who are on same (spiritually) level as you. So you see - even when Hiranyakashipu wanted to kill Prahlada, Prahlada didnt run away to temple. No, he performed his duties as son, for parents, and also for spiritual master (Narada). So also with Haridasa Thakura.

But also keep in mind - usually it is so that one cannot reach spiritual world, Goloka, Vaikuntha just in one life. Can you? We see that it may take few lifetimes for going back home to Godhead, even after getting in touch with bona-fide spiritual master (sometimes). So from this point of view - yes, you dont have to wait - take this Krishna consciousness for any price - give up karma, jnana, and even yoga, and take to bhakti. What can you learn in university, what kind of jnana? But in ISKCON you can study science of soul, bhakti - that is above philosophical speculation and even above meditation on Paramatma, Supersoul in heart. Bhakti is all-inclusive. Why do you have to give up everything? You can add bhakti to your karma, jnana and yoga. But well, yes, our ideal is bhakti which is devoid of any mixture of karma/jnana/yoga...
But see, sometimes people are too fanatic - they give up everything and immediately take sannyasa. And they get married. In Vedas, Prabhupadas books you can also see many instances of falldowns. So why this happens? Of too much devotiona? No, probably of too much attachment to something other than bhakti. So if you have such a desire to completely surrender - that is indeed very good. But also keep in mind - not too fanatical. There is one text in Prabhupadas books: religion without philosohpy is fanaticism or sentimentalism. Do not want to become one of them? And also said - simply philosophy without religion is mental speculation. So ideal is both religion+philosophy = and that is there in Prabhupadas books - we can get all we need from them. It is here: "Religion without philosophy is sentiment, or sometimes fanaticism, while philosophy without religion is mental speculation." (Bhagavad-guc0u299 tu257 As It Is 3.3 http://vedabase.net/bg/3/3/).

Also there are other Godbrothers of A.C.Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada in same sampradaya. Also there are other than Caitanya Sampradaya - other 4 vaishnava sampradayas. But of them that of Shankara (impersonal) maybe dangerous. So at least it seems a question - either one accepts Vaishnavism in general - not other christiainity/isalm/jewdaism who do not follow even their vegetarianism of Old testament ("God given you crops etc", "flesh and blood you shouldnt eat"), or you like buddhists who reject milk and do not know precisely about soul/God, though speaking of karma/reinacarnation and many material universes? For me, dharmic religions seem to be more advanced as older, including vegetarianism, and scientific description even of hell, heaven etc - with numbers, distances etc. But what about abrahamic religions? They hardly have this. But if Prabhupada warn that buddhists are dangerous, so even them I do not consider very seriously. Christians/Muslisms/Jews have concept of God. Ok, but what about yoga, meditation, God in heart? That is called Paramatma, Supersoul, and that is explained as expansion of Bhagavan (Krishna). So even from this point of view concept of God (Supreme Personality of Godhead) is more advanced that simply Jehowah, Allah, God. Considering other religions, spiritual systems? Well, there are many, but major are these. Jesus is accepted as shaktyavesha avatara, so also Mohammad, and even Buddha is considered avatara. But Krishna has so many avataras, so - many religions appear according to time and place. One can change religion, but cannot change this service. So eternal religion - to serve Supreme Godhead. And to realize this may time many lifetimes - that Krishna is cause of all causes. So do not wait for another lifetime, take best of this life and do devotional service. Fanaticism is not necessary.

P.S. Steven Rosen also has another book - reincarnation in world religions: http://www.amazon.com/Reincarnation-Controversy-Uncovering-Truth-Religions/dp/188708911X
So there you can see that indeed dharmic religions are better. But Buddha appeared in India, so Vedas are elder than buddhism. Actually Vedas are eternal
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steven_J._Rosen