Pariprashnena — Q&A Archive

It says in the Bhagavatam that on one occasion Nanda Maharaj celebrated Shiva Ratri, and in this instance Prabhupada comments that sometime Vaishnavas may celebrate it, but by the wording it is not compulsory.

It is not required outside of the area where it is customary. In other words, not.

I just read that it was actually not even BSST who introduced Gaura Purnima as a festival, it was Ananta Vasudeva. Janmastami was however celebrated as a festival by BSST (I don;t know if I should mention it in the lecture in the temple today, I think I will stick with the lila and philosophy). (Certainly Sivaratri was not ever in the life of Prabhupada or BSST). But hey, there are so many kinds of vaisnavas around.

As local Indians become more prominent on Iskcon temple committees and take up the lead of supporting many Iskcon temples you will see more and more non-core Vaisnava festivals celebrated. It is and will be more common across the world of Iskcon.

Is it true that in some ISKCON temples these days they are catering to the Indian community to the point where they are charging money to perform weddings and other religious ceremonies -- as well as allowing demigod worship to go on?

btw: I wasnt sure if I should ask this question as a separate thread or it belonged here with the question about Siva Ratri. Forgive me if I took the topic off track.

It differs from zone to zone Hashama, but where there are a lot of Indians that are actively involved in the temple and on the committee then what you have said tends to be the case. Your question is fine here.

Yes its an interesting topic ....demigod worship,since it is authorised to worship the demigods in pursuence of serving krishna!Even krishnas own family used to visit and take blessings from durga.After all it is certainly a neophyte appreciation ...not to attempt to gain the shelter of godess durga and lord shiva....while serving admist their environments,their area of dominance and authority.
Krishna empowered yudisthira maharaja to offer a bison ...animal offering to godess durga ,prior to the battle of kuruksetra to gain her mercy and blessing for the war to come!And yes several temples are infact being supported financially ,by the performance of a vedic wedding style engagements.Naturally now that western temples no longer have young men and women working full time as sankirtan devotees,either selling books or paraphenalia how do we expect them to survive financially otherwise?Generally congregational preaching will never completely sustain the financial needs of a temple!So some have attempted to be creative in their sankirtan spirit.I have heard that bhaktivedanta manor has expertly maintained themselves as a result.

Why is that? Why is it that Western temples no longer have young men and women doing Sankirtana ... chanting and distributing books? Isnt that how the Hare Krishna movement started out? In reading about the history of ISKCON the picture I get is that the main business of devotees (as per the instructions and example of Srila Prabhupada) was to perform Sankirtana and to distribute books and magazines. They put together an incense business, created a mail order service and donations came from supporters as well.So why is it that there arent young folks living in the temples anymore? Is that just a "Western temples" situation and when you say "Western" does that mean mainly Europe and the U.S.?

I understand that all those who were serving Srila Prabhupada back in the 60s and 70s are certainly no longer young -- but one would think that a sign of success would be for a new wave from the next generation would follow in their footsteps. What happened? I hear so much about how ISKCON is expanding by leaps and bounds but you are saying there arent enough (young) people living and working in the temples to pay the rent .. maintain the deity worship ... put on the Sunday feasts, etc. ????

Imho, this is not the case of every Western temple.
This is the natural transformation of a monastic into a congregational type of movement which can be seen in the history of Buddhism and Christianity. In Eastern Europe where KC came only 20 years ago we see it happening now as temple devotees gradually marry and move outside.

Hare krishna bhakta hashama,over the last thirty odd years a stark transformation happened within iskcon.We were basically when i jioned a family....a tight family .My senior siksa gurus were all Prabhupada disciples!We saw each other everyday at breakfast,worked together preaching,cooking,farming ,even sharing initiations,marriage break ups and burgeoning love....everything as Prabhupadas family!So when it came to building temples we also did it together......When i travel the world now its generally very different.In Australia we new everyone ,we all got together for big festivals!
Now in auckland temple we have possibly 200 devotees but i hardly now all their names because we are no longer are a close family society.They are not interested in sacrificing everything for krishna....as we were!They have a more slow pace....steady as she goes policy!Older devotees in my day .......we literally worshiped them,now they hardly appreciate what we have to offer!They seem rather lazy and more inclined to getting married .....sooner than later!Most become householders and just get jobs ......never to hear from them !My generation thought we would take over the world.....my godbrother sadbhuja prabhu is in mayapura dharma building the vedic planetarium,with Bhavananda das and ambarish das!Vedia prabhu is right....more of a householder mentality has become the norm!But as a new devotee i would say if you are sincere come to Australia on holiday ...sydney temples,gold coast or melborne and get trained up properly....experience thereal sankirtan mood .That is the real thing, not this easy as it goes.....relaxed ,time for maya mentality!Find a good older devotee who has compassion and a personal empathy for you and the junior devotees generally!Takew shelter of him.... and the temple president also!
In my day we were prepared to do anything for krishna.....the rent,books,prasadam cost 10,000-15,000 dollars a week.So we went and did anything to liberate the laxmi from the demons!Sell oil paintings,tee shirts,candles and books on saturdays and sundays.Friday and saturdays harinam in the streets!Non stop devotional service.!Yes we have grown but now the newer devotees are simply not as fired up!Not as committed as we were !...your servant

Sri Govinda Dasa - why do you need to go and liberate laxmi from the demons.
Its their hard earn money. Its not as if they went and stole it from Sri Krsnas
laxmi vault that you need to go and liberate it. And whats with this calling them
demons. When you want laxmi you go and beg from them and then turn around
and call them demons. Sure tells a lot about you.

Now, you have been a servant of Sri krsna for about 30 over years faithfully serving Him. So, how come Sri Krsna gives persons like William (Bill) H Gates (demons to you ) who is not His devotee,who does not chant 16 round, who does not follow the regulative principles who does not attend temple programmes who dont even know who Sri krsna is , about 2.1 billions dollars a year averaging 5.8 million dollars a day and to a faithful servant like you a couple of thousand dollars a week. Maybe less. Do you think He favours a non devotee (demon) like bill gates more than a faithful servant like you. What do you say.

sg -- Im glad you brought up that point. Sri Govinda Das rhetoric reminded me of "Onward Christian Soldiers .. Marching Off to War ...." The whole "us and them" mentality of liberating laxmi from the demons --- it rings of neophyte fanaticism and I can see how people would get very turned off. Maybe the reason money doesnt come so easily into the temples these days is not so much a lack of manpower but a growing weariness among the "karmi demons" to be treated like ATM machines. People are more cynical these days than they were back in the 60s and 70s. Also - the hard sell tactics used by the Hare Krishna devotees and other such organizations at airports, shopping malls, etc. are pretty much common knowledge. They have been spoofed in movies, books have been written ....and theres plenty of information about the history of it all on the Internet. The guru and leader of New Vrindaban, Kirtanananda Swami, even went to jail on some racketeering charges which inlcuded copyright infringement from selling Snoopy paraphernalia. Thats what I was trying to say before -- what ever happened to good old honest Sankirtana -- going out on the streets with dhotis and saris -- distributing books and magazines and even prasadam (simply wonderfuls and/or halavah) and attracting people through chanting, honesty and love? Then the money would come pouring in. Thats how Srila Prabhupada began in New York City so when, where, how and why did it all go astray?

Sri Govinda Das -- when you write that in Australia they have the real Sankirtana mood do you mean that they go out chanting and passing out books and magazines -- or do you mean they go out undercover with stickers and whatnot, hiding the fact that they are Hare Krishna devotees, and with some slick scam they "do the pick" ??? You say that you joined ISKCON in the late 70s -- after Srila Prabhupada had disappeared -- during whats known as the dark ages -- the zonal guru fiasco -- a time when Prabhupada disciples were exiting ISKCON by the hundreds and even thousands and yet you describe the atmosphere as if you were talking about ISKCON of 1969, not 1979. I dont get it. Something isnt clicking. You really have me confused now.

Srila Madhvacarya has defined asura as follows: asUsu ratiH iti asuraH - "Asura is one who is addicted to the movement of the asu (prana, life force)." The movement of life force through various psycho-physical endeavors produces ecstacy or exhilaration of different kinds. Those who chase this as a thing in itself, or who compulsively engage in such false-egoistic passionate behavior, are asuras. Instead of their real identity as jiva, asuras are focused on upadhi, externals in the form of subtle and physical body. Prana is a part of linga sarira, subtle body, and serves as interface with the physical body. (SB 4.29.71) At death it leaves to another physical body. (Vedantasutra 2.4.13, SB 4.28.24)

esho anur atma cetasa veditavya yasmin pranah pancadha samvivesha
pranais cittamsattvam otam prajanam yasmin vishuddhe vibhavatyesha atma

"The atomic soul can be perceived by perfect intelligence as floating in the five kinds of life airs (prana, apana, vyana, samana and udana). When the consciousness (that pervades from the soul through the entire body) is purified from the contamination of the five kinds of material airs, its spiritual influence is exhibited." (Mundaka Upanishad 3.1.9)

In Puranas we see incidents when asuras become more powerful than devas. Wealth isnt an indicator of Lords favor, its a result of karma.

Very interesting information, Veda. So that is the authoritative sastric definition of asura. What exactly does that have to do with whats being discussed? Im not trying to be sarcastic or disrespectful as you are obviously very learned but its not clear to me why you posted those definitions and references to "asura." If it had to do with the mentality of "lets liberate laxmi from the demons" ... my point wasnt whether they are demons or not --- its the mentality of walking out of the temple door into the street thinking, "now Im going to somehow get money from all these demons and by doing so Ill be doing them a favor. Even if its true -- shouldnt a neophyte devotee have a humbler attitude and wouldnt you think that all those "demon asuras" are hip to when somebody is coming at them with an air of religious superiority?

Its the same when a devotee is giving a class. Sometimes they will use the words "they" or "you" instead of "we." Its one thing when somebody on the level of Srila Prabhupada speaks in those terms --- but one who isnt on that level of purity and compassion tends to get the false ego mixed into it and thats when it gets weird and distasteful.

bhoktaram yajna-tapasam
sarva-loka-mahesvaram
suhrdam sarva-bhutanam
jnatva mam santim rcchati
The sages, knowing Me as the ultimate purpose of all sacrifices and austerities, the Supreme Lord of all planets and demigods and the benefactor and well-wisher of all living entities, attain peace from the pangs of material miseries.
The greatest peace formula is simply this: Lord Krsna is the beneficiary in all human activities. Men should offer everything to the transcendental service of the Lord because He is the proprietor of all planets and the demigods thereon. from the purport by Srila Prabhupada.
So a devotee sees that krishna is the supreme owner and enjoyer of everything!He also is our best freind and wellwisher!
The demon however sees that this world is for his enjoyment!This envious mentality is symptomised by this ...i and mine mentality.Everything is for my enjoyment!....not krishnas.

paritranaya sadhunam
vinasaya ca duskrtam
dharma-samsthapanarthaya
sambhavami yuge yuge...bhagavad gita chapter 8 verse 4
In order to deliver the pious and to annihilate the miscreants, as well as to reestablish the principles of religion, I advent Myself millennium after millennium.

PURPORT
According to Bhagavad-gita, a sadhu (holy man) is a man in Krsna consciousness. A person may appear to be irreligious, but if he has the qualifications of Krsna consciousness wholly and fully, he is to be understood to be a sadhu. And duskrtam applies to one who doesnt care for Krsna consciousness. Such miscreants, or duskrtam, are described as foolish and the lowest of mankind, even though they may be decorated with mundane education; whereas another person, who is one hundred percent engaged in Krsna consciousness, is accepted as sadhu, even though such a person may neither be learned nor well cultured.
So here is this unique preaching mood which differentiates iskcon from the gaudiya line generally.This demons and devotees or sadhu and duskrtam is essential in my humble opinion to understand thoroughly before one is able to appreciate Srila Prabhupadas flavour of preaching.

My new friend bhahkta hashama ,since you are very neophyte ....obviously still envious in nature,being presently unable to appreciate a devotees preaching mood i will try to explain it further, to hopefully help you to understand the advanced compassionate mood of Srila Prabhupadas preachers!
The servant of Srila AC B haktivedanta swami Prabhupada is a fighter...even sometimes an extremely aggressive preacher!This mood actually comes from his guru....Srila Bhaktisiddanta saraswati thakura.However it is sweetly portrayed within this quotes.
But Srila Prabhupada quoted an old saying,If somebody offers you very nicely washed cloth,you should use it!And some property,you must use it.
He said that people are rotting outside of Krishna conciousness and we should help them to develop their spiritual lives.This is combination of rich man poor man,for krishna.The same,anda pangu-nyaya.Both of them are useless seperately,and when they combine together in krishna -conciousness,they are all useful....So our propaganda is,They are seperately planning useless.Let them combine together in krishna- conciousness.All this planning shall be successful.
Jayapataka smiled appreciately.We were all useless in the west,but you came and then engaged us!
Srila Prabhupada took his praise humbly.
It is krishnas desire.Nobody is useless.I was also useless.I could not do in India alone .......anything.He chuckled.Two uselesses makes useful;intelligence alone cannot work,money is required.A man may have very good brain power,organisation,but if he has no money-useless.So four things required;land,labour,capital organisation.....from page 185,hyderabad....a transcendental diary august 1976...

So notice how Srila Prabhupada comments that people are rotting outside krishna conciousness and we should help them develop their krishna conciousness!This is the vision of our guru!Our founder-archaryas mood!Notice also his suggestion of what is required to forfill his unique service attitude and view......

A man may have very good brain power,organisation,but if he has no money-useless.So four things required;land,labour,capital organisation.Hence as an empowered follower of AC Bhaktivedanta swami Prabhupada he is suggesting we need land,labour,capital and an organisation!

Fight! Without fight,where is life?If there is no fighting,then what is that life?That is dead stone.Fight must be there.Krishnas whole life is fighting from the very birth....If Krishna is fighting,why not krishna conciousness the same thing?You cannot expect peaceful life.
No ,there must be fighting;then think,That is Krishnas prescence,His fight.So this fighting means theyre feeling the prescence of Krishna conciousness movement.Otherwise why theyre making fight?Had it been an insignifigant thing,there was no question of fighting.NOVEMBER 2,1976....Srila Prabhupada encouraging visitors to join with him in countering the legal attacks on his movement in america by deprogramers and disgruntled parents...

This unique flavour of a fighting vaisnava using devotees to liberate laxsmi,becuse he needed land,capital ,labour and a worldwide organisation to serve krishna is very sublime and a special utilisation of yukta-vairagya.Such understandings are special because he expertly utilised mayas energies in the service of Radha and Krishna!.....Hopefully these quotes might give you and others the specific demons and devotee mood,which empowered those who surrendered to iskcon authorities the ability to achieve wonderful sankirtan results!And then how best distribute that knowledge in the form of books!

Why is it that Western temples no longer have young men and women doing Sankirtana ... chanting and distributing books? Isnt that how the Hare Krishna movement started out?...bhakta hashama asks?
Well yes you are welcome to chant and dance on the streets with us,every friday night devotees chant on the streets of Auckland city.Myself i went out several weeks ago!About fifty devotees went out that night!And yes we distibuted a few books.
We dont have the same problems which seem to be an American problem,we have lots of younger devotees coming to krishna.However they are more of a part time nature....without the strong training which is naturally having gone through an exstensive bhakta program,and several years of competent training in all facets of devotional service within an iskcon temple!!
However there is also no longer full prasadam ,usually a basic breakfast....provided by the temple everyday.Hence as a consequence iskcon locally has no devotees working fulltime to pay off the mortgage,pay the huge prasadam bill,and all the fixed costs associated with running a huge temple !
Since the newer devotees are in my opinion ,because of a severe lack of training are unwilling or simply unqualified to take responsibilty to serve krishna and raise laxsmi for krishna.What are the present managers meant to do?
Faced with $10,000 dollars a week costs,as i was when running several termples many years ago i can fully appreciate that it cannot be covered merely by book sales obviously!
So your simplistic approach, bhakta hashama is just that simple and very naieve!Faced with the need for wealth to even maintain krishnas temples,we must be intelligent and expert!
Surrender to guru and krishna is not a cheap thing bhakta hashama,your simple naieve possibly envious mentality is very much invogue in america.Where open oppersition is prevalent amongst even the new recruits....like yourself.However that is the nature of this world....simply the cheaters and the cheated!

My freind sg please accept my humble obeisances......
Mister gates is not trying to surrender to Srila Prabhupada or Krishna.....he seems to be interested in creating a comfitable situation within the material world in my humble veiw sg.
Since as a humble follower of Srila Prabhupada....even Mister gates is rotting in the material world,according to an advanced preachers vision and the exact mood of my guru i simply serve his Flavour and vision.
Everything is krishnas not his ....mister gates !That is my siksa gurus mood...AC Bhaktivedanta swamis mood so i will accept that myself!However you are welcome to stay with your version of events sg.
In answer to your question does krishna favour mister gates over his humble devotee,myself?.....Krishna answers this with this sloka from the bhagavad gita......5.15

nadatte kasyacit papam
na caiva sukritam vibhuh
ajnanenavrtam jnanam
tena muhyanti jantavah

"Nor does the Supreme Lord assume anyone'92s sinful or pious activities. Embodied beings, however, are bewildered because of the ignorance which covers their real knowledge."...in the purport srila Prabhupada comments,that the supreme lord is never responsible for the reactions and actions of the material nature or its particular situation.

In laymans terms krishna is saying dont blame me for your karma.....good or bad !That we are simply receiving the results of our karma!

However his devotee is serving his guru...and the result is up to krishna after initiation ...... or simply out of krishnas mercy when you are a new bhakta!So inconclusion .....krishna is very merciful to his devotee who is surrendered.Which brings to mind......the unique mood of Srila Gaurakisore das babaji Maharaja ,when he used to benedict his followers....let your material condition....family,freindship and material happiness be destroyed!

My freind sg please accept my humble obeisances......
Mister gates is not trying to surrender to Srila Prabhupada or Krishna.....he seems to be interested in creating a comfitable situation within the material world in my humble veiw sg.
Since as a humble follower of Srila Prabhupada....even Mister gates is rotting in the material world,according to an advanced preachers vision and the exact mood of my guru i simply serve his Flavour and vision.
Everything is krishnas not his ....mister gates !That is my siksa gurus mood...AC Bhaktivedanta swamis mood so i will accept that myself!However you are welcome to stay with your version of events sg.
In answer to your question does krishna favour mister gates over his humble devotee,myself?.....Krishna answers this with this sloka from the bhagavad gita......5.15

nadatte kasyacit papam
na caiva sukritam vibhuh
ajnanenavrtam jnanam
tena muhyanti jantavah

"Nor does the Supreme Lord assume anyone'92s sinful or pious activities. Embodied beings, however, are bewildered because of the ignorance which covers their real knowledge."...in the purport srila Prabhupada comments,that the supreme lord is never responsible for the reactions and actions of the material nature or its particular situation.

In laymans terms krishna is saying dont blame me for your karma.....good or bad !That we are simply receiving the results of our karma!

However his devotee is serving his guru...and the result is up to krishna after initiation ...... or simply out of krishnas mercy when you are a new bhakta!So inconclusion .....krishna is very merciful to his devotee who is surrendered.Which brings to mind......the unique mood of Srila Gaurakisore das babaji Maharaja ,when he used to benedict his followers....let your material condition....family,freindship and material happiness be destroyed!

SGD, there is no wonder people have a laid back mood these days when people like you are screaming in their ears they are naive and envious, the last five (5) posts here are yours, ease up and give other people a chance to contribute your not conversing with people you are spamming them with your own opinions.

Hashama comes across as an intelligent discerning person which is exactly how one needs to be, and see how you treat someone who actually thinks, you insult them and turn them away. Hashama is right you are like a Christian soldier, but I see you more like a lemming marching off the cliff. SGD it is you who are naive, for god sake mature up and become broad minded and leave your Iskcon fanaticism at the door.

SGD, your are not representative of anyone least alone Srila Prabhupada you just insist that everyone else accepts your own misguided puffed up point of view, if you are the poster boy of Iskcon then all I can say is that Iskcon is in big trouble, although I highly doubt it, as you admitted yourself recently you were nearly tossed out of Iskcon in New Zealand and Ill bet if you keep it up with your dogmatic backward attitudes it wont belong before they completely tire of you.

It is one thing to cut and paste quotes from all over the place, it is another thing to understand the spirit of the shastra and how to let others discover "The Hidden Treasure of the Sweet Absolute" (as Sridhar Maharaja puts it). Each person must analyse their own selves after all its the science of self realization, of course this is done with the help of humble sincere devotees and a qualified spiritual master and god help us all as these are very hard to find these days.

Hashama already comes across as someone far more advanced than you SGD. Its not the years in Iskcon that makes one advanced, as you are proof of that its the ability of someone to not get too caught up in the externals and institution conciousness and progress ones Krishna conciousness and make discovery of the hidden treasure.

Hashima you are exactly right, people are wise to religious zealots who see nothing but the coins in their pockets, and that is why Iskcon is struggling to pull the cash it needs and you have completely popped SGDs bubble about the 1979 dark ages guru fiasco period, absolutely spot on! Yet somehow SGD thinks these were the golden years...LMHO...absolutely amazing how some people are attached to the dark past.

Sorry manasi -seva prabhu,however i fail to see bhakta hashama who criticizes veda as sincere,who is finding faullt with those devotees whom are instructing him.Hardly submissive inquiring.....more of a challenging spirit Such madhyama devotees who are preaching...being verbalised by him because in his veiw they are not on Srila Prabhupadas platform......well sorry but he is simply finding fault to a large degree.I tried to post an informative sastric understanding however ....if in your opinion i failed please offer a better version yourself!
However i take your piont about possible spamming ...however my particular computer this morning is quite pathetic.Also when the pariprashnena computer fails to load ....i sent again ,then they both were accepted!Because i am very useless concerning computers please forgive me...your servant

Yes manasi-seva since you offer the anti-parties veiw,the caste brahmanas ,sahaja swamis and that jnani Narayanna maharaja ....please feel free!Thought you and others would appreciate this quote!
Vedavyasa prabhu, disciple of Gopal Krishna Maharaja, as told to Ravindra Svarupa prabhu, Prithu prabhu, and Gopal Krishna Maharaja:
"You know, Narayana Maharaja has been trying to initiate me since a long time... I kept avoiding him. When I went away on business at one stage Narayana Maharaja had somebody call my wife to tell her that "Narayana Maharaja wants to see her. She went and he instantly initiated her. When I came back I was most upset and in fact infuriated. So I told my wife: "Since you did this without asking me I can take sannyasa now at any time without asking you as well."
"My wife was crying and crying and Narayana Maharaja heard about it. He passed the message that we both should see him so he would fix this problem. When we went Narayana Maharaja offered instantly that the whole situation could be resolved if I were just to take initiation from him as well. I declined his repeated coaxing, saying ultimately: "Maharaja, you should know that every hair on my body belongs to ISKCON and Srila Prabhupada"
Instantly Narayana Maharaja took my arm and said: "Do you know that he (Srila Prabhupada) was selling liquor?" My blood was boiling that he would go so far to get me to take initiation from him that he would try to break my faith in Srila Prabhupada. I instantly said to my wife: "Give him the beads back" which she did. And we rushed out of his room." (Note: It seems that Narayana Maharaja must have been referring to the fact that in his householder days Srila Prabhupadas pharmacy sold 100% alcohol for medical use.)" ....so yes siva ratri can be worshiped within the temple as long as it is infront of the deities!

VEDA has a tendancy at times to be very vague, as above he is posting stuff about asura minded people, I also fail to see where this fits into the discussion (ok maybe he is trying to respond to sg on bill gates, its not very clear though), Hashima states himself that it was not sarcasm or disrespect he is simply inquiring as to what was the point VEDA was trying to make. You cant expect to find intelligent people who will not spot a contradiction or who will not question things, we need people to question and to compare what people are saying with the shastra this will lift the quality of both disciple and guru.

SGD there is a remove button that allows you to delete duplicated posts simply click on the one next to the post you want removed and it will remove your duplicated post. But remember if you cant say what you are trying saying in a few paragraphs maybe you need to rethink your approach, people are more likely to listen to you if you are concise and to the point, to be honest I just skip over most of your posts because you tend to labour at the same issues. If you were more concise I would read them.

SGD how many times do I need to tell you, I am not a follower or disciple of Narayan Maharaja, here you go again getting way off subject and back onto your pet topic of blaspheming NM at any and every opportunity, that is not Vaisnava culture that is Vaisnava Aparadha! If you have issues with Narayan Maharaja take it up with him. There are many Vaisnavas that have made a great contribution to Chaitanya Mahaprabhus movement and most of them had nothing to do with Iskcon, Iskcon only happened in the last 54 years and the only notable one from Iskcon is Srila Prabhupada himself, as far as I am concerned Iskcon started and ended with him and should another self effulgent great acharya appear within Iskcon the others will kick him out if he is lucky or he may suffer some worse fate.

I will NOT provide you with endless opportunities to debate on Narayana Maharaja, if you have issues with him then take it up with him. You have laboured this topic to death in this forum and most people here are sick to death with your shallow arguments on the matter and your overt disrespect for everything that is not Iskcon. This is the last I will respond to you on Narayan Maharaja.

With all due respect sri govinda das -- I have no idea what you are talking about. You have a strange way of communicating. I have never before encountered a style such as yours and Im not sure what to think. I certainly dont get a good feeling from you. When I read anything written by Srila Prabhupada I feel as if Im drinking nectar. When I read what you write I feel like I am eating nails. Maybe you ought to tone it town a little or, as we say here in the U.S., "chill out, dude." In all my reading of Srila Prabhupadas letters and conversations I never saw where he called somebody an envious neophyte because they asked some questions. He would sometimes -- rarely -- to a persons face -- call them a rascal if they were challenging the philosophy of Krishna consciousness -- an atheist, scientist, sahajiya or impersonalist -- or a person posing as a teacher or leader but who is a cheater. Yes, Srila Prabhupada was a fighter but his weapon was the Mahamantra and his battle plan was to conquer the hearts and minds of the suffering people in this Kali Yuga.

Sri Govinda Das -- why does it seem like you are very angry? Are you? I detect a great deal of hostility in your posts here. Its like you are in a corner swinging wildly at anyone who comes near you. I really dont think that your mood of hostility is representative of Srila Prabhupadas "fighting spirit." Thats a looooong stretch, my friend.

> So that is the authoritative sastric definition of asura.

Its a definition by Sri Madhvacarya.

> What exactly does that have to do with whats being discussed? Im not trying to be sarcastic or disrespectful as you are obviously very learned but its not clear to me why you posted those definitions and references to "asura."

It was a reaction to sg who spoke about demons. Sorry for unclarity.

Thanks for clarifying that, Veda. Now I understand.

Hashama - Very nice comments and let me welcome you also to the sublime
and uniquely flavoured world of Spiritual Consciousness. I notice you had your
baptism (very neophyte / envious in nature / unable to appreciate......) from Sri Govinda Dasa. He is a very nice devotee, uniquely sublime in nature. Just that
his thinking is a little narrow. This is due to the chop, rip and tear indoctrination
he received from his seniors. Sadly no love of godhead was given. So you see
he is now the most sublime and uniquely conditioned spiritual solider ready to
fight now and ever on all fronts those evil demonic demons (non devotees) from whom he has to beg laxmi when he requires it because sweet Lord Krsna does
not favour him that much. Personally i like his uniquely flavoured fighting spirit
and his sublime insperational comments, even though there are repeated,
you will too in time to come.
Hare Krsna Prabhu.

Sri Govinda Dasa - Please accept my obeisances. Humbleness, i am still trying
to understand. So, pls forgive me for my crudeness.
The general population of non devotees whom you call demons includes personalities like Bill Gates who has a personal wealth of 42 billions dollars and continues to make 5.8 millions dollars a day. This person (Bill Gates) has contributed billions of dollars to charity and has further pledged his entire personal fortune of billions to it but sadly not a single cent was given to your most sublime and unique spiritual conscious society. How come you have not gone and liberated the laxmi from this big demon and others like him. You have repeatedly mentioned that you have been uniquely trained for this. So please let us have your uniquely flavoured inspirational answer.

HDGSP has a little bit to add on this " When a person occupies an exalted executive position,one should consider that he has acquired the grace of the
Lord. HDGSP quotes the following verse " Know that all beautiful, glorious
and mighty creations spring from but a spark of my Splendour." ( Bg 10:41)
Whenever we see something exalted, we must consider it part of the power
Supereme Personality of Godhead . A powerful man (vibhutimat Sattvam) is
one who has obtained the grace of the Lord or has derived some power
from Him. "Krsna says tejas tejasvinam aham - I am the power of the
powerful. (Bg 7:10)

The learned brahmana scholars showed respect to Nawab Hussain Shah
because he represented a fraction of Krsna s power." A quote from CC.

So dont go around calling people as demons. You are not in the authoritative
position to do so.

> This person (Bill Gates) has contributed billions of dollars to charity and has further pledged his entire personal fortune of billions to it

Gates Foundation states on its website:

Examples of areas the foundation does not fund include:

* Projects addressing health problems in developed countries
* Political campaigns and legislative lobbying efforts
* Building or capital campaigns
* Projects that exclusively serve religious purposes
* Direct support for individuals

http://www.gatesfoundation.org/grantseeker/Pages/foundation-grant-making-priorities.aspx

It was stated above that wealth is not related to Krsnas favor.

> So dont go around calling people as demons. You are not in the authoritative position to do so.

On the authority of Sri Madhvacarya quoted above everyone who is interested in the upadhi instead of jiva-Krsna sambandha, abhidheya and prayojana can be called a demon (asura). Srila Prabhupada didnt use this term to offend but to show whos who.
Recently Ive read his poem Virahastaka (1958) which shows his unique preaching mood. He uses the word demons in the last octet.

In my readings Ive come across the following terms and words used by His Divine Grace:

demons (and demoniac)
rascals (and rascaldom)
rogues
fools (and foolishness)
hogs, dogs, camels and asses
dullheaded
cheaters (and cheated)
insufficient brain substance
misled
upstarts
puffed up
mundane wranglers
materialistic
miscreants
useless
uncivilized

Im sure this list is longer but its certainly quite obvious that Srila Prabhupada didnt pull any punches. At the same time he didnt use these words indiscriminately -- and certainly not to describe an aspiring and inquiring student. He was like a thunderbolt to the stubborn atheists, the impersonalists who twist Krishnas words and the true meaning and message of Bhagavad-gita ... and of course, the scientists who write post-dated checks in their efforts to convince people that life comes from matter and the universe began with a giant bang.

[quote][cite] Hashama:[/cite]
Im sure this list is longer but its certainly quite obvious that Srila Prabhupada didnt pull any punches. At the same time he didnt use these words indiscriminately -- and certainly not to describe an aspiring and inquiring student. He was like a thunderbolt to the stubborn atheists, the impersonalists who twist Krishnas words and the true meaning and message of Bhagavad-gita ... and of course, the scientists who write post-dated checks in their efforts to convince people that life comes from matter and the universe began with a giant bang.[/quote]

[br][quote][cite] VEDA:[/cite]
On the authority of Sri Madhvacarya quoted above everyone who is interested in the upadhi instead of jiva-Krsna sambandha, abhidheya and prayojana can be called a demon (asura). Srila Prabhupada didnt use this term to offend but to show whos who.
Recently Ive read his poem Virahastaka (1958) which shows his unique preaching mood. He uses the word demons in the last octet.[/quote]

Personaly, the problem I have with being called names and assigned negative labels is the implied consequence being called thus has or is supposed to have.[br]

[br]If someone says to me "You are a demon / you have no faith / ...", the implication often seems to be "... and therefore you should go to some dark corner and die of shame" or "... and therefore I do not have to behave in line with common decency toward you" or "... and therefore you should leave this place". I have had this happen - people, including devotees, calling me names, and then treating me like trash, while expecting that I should still believe them, respect them, trust them.[br]

[br]I find that the hardest part is figuring out the intended purpose of being called names or assigned negative labels. Those who are prone to call pople names and assign negative labels often seem unwilling to state clealry what it is that they actually wish to communicate to the person they have called so. And if one inquires, it tends to lead to just more name-calling and negativity.

Baker: This again confirms that imitation is not the way to go. Terms need to be explained.

Thank you, Veda. One of the wonders of poetry is that so much is said in so few words. You have that talent.

Heres a letter from Srila Prabhupada to a woman who had recently met some of his disciples and found them to be negative and pessimistic. Srila Prabhupada didnt call her an envious neophyte. This is what he DID say:

http://prabhupadabooks.com/?g=171243

Baker is absolutely right one of the great examples of this was the documentary "Blue eyes, brown eyes" a school class in the 60s were separated into two groups the blue eye group and the brown eyes + other colour eyes group. The blue eye group were told they were special and more naturally intelligent and the other group were told they were stupid. The blue eye group grades and confidence went through the roof and the other group started to fail, they reversed this some time later and said they made a mistake and it was the blue eye people who were stupid and the other eye colour group were the intelligent ones, immediately the results reversed and the other eye colour group marks went through the roof and the blue eye group started to fail.

That is why it is important to find the right community of devotees and the correct spiritual master for you, many devotees and even some gurus have a very negative approach to shastra, yes in some ways its supported by shastra as thats where all their quotes come from, but they are always on about the negative stuff and never quote the positive.

Chaitanya Mahaprabhu was life affirming and very positive, he cut through all of the caste and varnashrama rules, accepted so called low borns as associates and disciples, embraced the diseased, protested the authorities, distributed love of god to all and sundry even the corrupt drunkards Jagai and Madhai who any brahmana would have said they were evil demons most unqualified.

Baker I think your attitude is fine, you just have to sincerely look for simple humble positive devotees. When looking think broad not only Iskcon, you should check the Sri Chaintainya Saraswath Math, they have a very humble approach.

On their homepage their acharya Srila B.S. Govinda Maharaj has his words to live by quote:
"In the battlefield, we are always ready to fight, this is our nature, but Sriman Mahaprabhu showed His nature when He was on the battlefield - always humble. That is the difference... When He went to Prakasananda Saraswatis meeting, He sat in a very ignorable place... Very humble."

Check em out for yourself.

http://www.scsmath.com/index.html

In the end what institution we belong to has no meaning, what is important is that we are achieving prem (love of god).

... and dont it make your brown eyes ... dont it make your brown eyes .... dont it make your brown eyes ... blooo-oo

If you wanna be a bhakta it dont matter if youre black or white ......

Hey you get outa my Matha .... hey you get outa my Matha ... I dont even want you here at the Ratha ....

Take a good look at my face ... you see the tilaka looks out of place ... come closer its easy to trace ... Im keeping long hairs

If I were a karmi, and you were a devotee ... would you marry me anyway ... would you wash my dhoti .....

[quote][cite] Hashama:[/cite]Thank you, Veda. One of the wonders of poetry is that so much is said in so few words. You have that talent.
[/quote]

He does, yes. :)

[quote][cite] manasi_seva:[/cite]
Baker I think your attitude is fine, you just have to sincerely look for simple humble positive devotees. When looking think broad /.../[/quote]

You have said such thingsm to me on more than this occassion. I havent commented before, but I will now.
[br]In short, the way you speak strikes me to be basically the same way that the "others" speak. Both of you are telling me "Baker, youre fine, but you should ..."[br]

[br]I have been the recipient of much "help" in my life. Interestingly, the "helpers" were mostly strikingly similar to those whom or that which they tried to help me with. For example, someone came to help me against a bully, and in turn bullied me themselves. Someone came to help me with my fear of eternal damnation, and gave me more fear of eternal damnation.[br]

There seems to be a pattern here ...

Baker -- Im curious -- if you dont want help, then why do you continually ask for it? You come up here presenting yourself as somebody who is attracted to Krishna consciousness but youre having some problems accepting, understanding and believing. In all fairness -- if Manasi seva would have just written "I think your attitude is fine ...." and not added some advice ... what would you have gained from the exchange? You are a student, like myself, who has some questions and is wanting/needing some guidance on this path of Krishna consciousness that you have decided to pursue or at least explore. So if you are asking questions then be prepared for the answers, but its not fair to fault those who are attempting to help you. When that bully was bothering you -- did you seek help from that person or did they just come to the rescue like some good samaritan? Whatever the answer --- your situation here is obviously that you are seeking help in the form of advice as well as information and knowledge that will hopefully alleviate whatever lingering doubts you have concerning the science of Krishna consciousness, bhakti-yoga.

So ... be careful not to bite the hand that feeds you.

[quote][cite] Hashama:[/cite]Baker -- Im curious -- if you dont want help, then why do you continually ask for it?[/quote]

Its not that I would not want help. Its that not all help that is offered is actually useful or pertinent.[br]

[br]I suppose this is the curse of online forums: one gets all kinds of responses, some of them are helpful, some are not.[br]
Moreover, these forum exchanges are often a mixture of objective discussion and personal insight and advice. Its not always clear or easy to figure out what the intended motivation for saying something was.[br]

[br][quote]So if you are asking questions then be prepared for the answers, but its not fair to fault those who are attempting to help you.[/quote]

It is not fair to place the whole burden of the problems inherent to online communication on just one person.[br]

[br][quote]Whatever the answer --- your situation here is obviously that you are seeking help in the form of advice as well as information and knowledge that will hopefully alleviate whatever lingering doubts you have concerning the science of Krishna consciousness, bhakti-yoga.

So ... be careful not to bite the hand that feeds you.[/quote]

How much does the tone of your post have to do with your appreciacion of Manasi-seva ... I think you are a bit biased here.[br]
The situation between myself and others that you describe here occurs only with some devotees. If you read more of my exchanges here, you could observe several types of communication dynamics. Then I probably wouldnt seem so ungrateful to you anymore.[br]

[br]Anyway, thanks for the reminder.

> Its that not all help that is offered is actually useful or pertinent.

> I suppose this is the curse of online forums: one gets all kinds of responses, some of them are helpful, some are not.

You answer yourself. Therefore HBV 1.73 says: "They [guru and disciple] should undergo a mutual examination for the duration of a year, living together, to experience and understand each others behavior and nature."

[So dont go around calling people as demons. You are not in the authoritative
position to do so....sg]
.Sorry sg,srila Prabhupada and his servants call them demons,because krishna calls them demons!Which he does in bhagavad gita! Chapter16 verses 7,13,16,17,18,24....So is mister bill gates a demon ?
Yes he is in Srila Prabhupadas opinion....because he is averse to surrendering to krishnas servants.From what i understand from an american freind he eats meat!
So such behaviour is demoniac as a consequence ,though he might be an innocent demon until a devotee preaches to him ....his is still a demon according to the Vaisnava Archaryas.
Being a servant of my guru....i see the same way naturally!
I am merely attempting to rectify or attack ....on the net,where usually all sorts of burnt out non-devotees,blasphemers,demons and a huge variety of envious parasites frequent to try and destroy my gurus legacy and reputation.
Also sg i am in a position to see who is a demon,i put my photo on this site because i see most of you hide in the background.Incognito....yes i might be rough sometimes....and yes i might be foolishly wrong sometimes!However at least see my humble attempts are genuine .
So hashama you think that you are non-envious when you bring up topics of get out of my matha,criticise veda,kirtananda and new vrindavana,snoop dog copyright...ect.Then using your cynical mood to slight devotees ...lumping everyone in!
Well maybe in the USA that is a sincere new bhakta.....however in our environment it is just plain low class!
Well thats why straight talking is necessary especially with americans because they seldom hear it!
Being products of Macdonalds and Burger king ....what can you expect generally!George bush took shares in Black water with osama ben ladens family just to make a profit out of the war he lead into iraq!
And some millions of other demons ......voted these demons in!
Well hashama thank goodness we are not in america,The only country who used Atomic weapons on [innocent women and children ] ....citizens in Nagasaki and hiroshima....which even Adolf hitler refused to do!...hare krishna!

Baker >>Its not that I would not want help. Its that not all help that is offered is actually useful or pertinent.

Baker you ramble on about how people are negative towards you or label you with some negative name and when someone agrees with you about negative reinforcement and suggest to find a more positive group to associate with you complain that you cannot trust people who suggest something positive. It appears whatever suggestions are put forward you continue with some bizarre circular argument.

The only pattern I can see Baker is that you refuse to accept the medicine on offer, you continually deposit into this forum all the reasons why you either cannot believe, cannot accept, cannot understand, cannot have faith or cannot understand what it is to have faith and for every rational suggestion that is put to you all you come up with is some irrational excuse as to why that wont work for you and your tone is often covered in ungratefulness.

Everyone here that has responded to you has done so in a mood of offering kind assistance or help, many of those suggestions I have not agreed with, however I always see the goodwill in which it is offered and I think you should to. Regardless of whether the suggestion hits the nail on the head or not, show some depth of spirit and appreciation. Acts of kindness are becoming a rare thing in this world and when devotees are taking time out to sincerely help you on a path to re-awakening your love for Radha and Krishna whether you believe in them or not, if nothing else try and see the beauty in that. All the devotees here that have responsed to you care or they simply wouldnt respond to you. No one here has ever suggested some dark evil path to you, when they do so maybe that would be the time to come on with the ungrateful attitude.

Sri-Govinda-Das -- I think you are a psychotic madman and are not only dangerous but also most likely the worst possible representative of Krishna consciousness in existence. The best thing you could do to preserve and protect the legacy and reputation of His Divine Grace Srila Prabhupada is to stop putting these posts of yours up. You are just one horrible individual. You cant take a joke (those little ditties I wrote were parodies -- not my own opinions per se -- but you wouldnt understand anything like that, would you? You are the biggest turn-off I have ever come into contact with as far as Krishna consciousness goes. You just might be the "anti-preacher" because it seems with every word that emanates from your mouth I feel less and less inspired. In fact -- in order to preserve and protect the tiny little seed that was planted in my heart for awakening my love for Krishna through Srila Prabhupadas books --- I think it best in the future for me personally to avoid anything and everything you post. Why dont you just talk about Krishna and Lord Caitanya and Prabhupada --- all their wonderful qualities and beauty and love and compassion and mercy? Why are you so full of venom and hatred? Chill out, dude. You call people envious parasites and then condemn America and Americans? Thats supposed to be the symptoms of transcendental love of God?. Why is it that when I read Srila Prabhupadas books my heart fills up with joy and when I read what you write I feel like throwing up? I have had a few exchanges with devotees on other sites and forums and through emails --- and thank goodness none of them are anything like you. Youre really horrible -- just horrible.

SGD its important to have a sense of humor, how you can react in such a serious manner to something that Hashama said in jest is beyond me, this forum can sometimes get quite heavy and little humour does not go astray but to interpret what he said as some serious attack is just plain stupid. I dont think you read the posts correctly.

SGD you better go back and take your history lessons again, Hitler and his mad scientists did not invent the nuclear bomb, if they had you can bet Hitler would have used it. The first atomic test was in New Mexico during the predawn hours of July 16, 1945. The test was the culmination of three years planning and development within the super secret Manhattan Project headed by General Leslie R. Groves. & Dr. J. Robert Oppenheimer.

Oppenheimer was also a Sanskrit scholar and a great lover of the Bhagavad Gita one of his favourite quotes was BG 11.32 "The Blessed Lord said: Time I am, destroyer of the worlds..."

Oh ... and the whole nuclear program in the U.S. was spearheaded by mostly German scientists and physicists who escaped the oppressive policies of Hitlers Nazi party in the 30s (including Einstein). It was another instance of Hitler shooting himself in the foot (like trying to conquer the Soviet Union and thus having to fight a war on two fronts). Hitler was a great propagandist but a terrible military strategist. He was also a hypocrite and a coward. He ordered that Germans never surrender but fight to the last man (or boy as it were) whereas Hitler committed suicide rather than leave his bunker and go down in a blaze of glory.

Anyway -- what does the fact that America used the atom bomb to end the war with Japan have anything to do with anything here? I guess Sri Govinda Das needed to express his hatred for America and Americans.

So manasi seva and hasama ...how foolish you show yourselves to be! In the mahabharat if you read it you will find arjuna,bhisma ,parasarama and drona- acharya all used the Brahmastra ,nuclear weapons!The americans merely claimed to have invented!Some five thousand odd years ago ksatriyas used,so how they have created?.......hence you show your american arrogance lack of training again hashama.They did not go to the moon also....,just [american]nasa cheating....
That ranks up their manasi-seva with your mundane vision of Sri Dharma Mayapura...It is not a myth manasi- seva...follow your guru ,govinda maharaja....he beleives prabhu!Well hashama what you fail to understand is that by bombing hundreds of thousands of children and women the american president ,showed their[americans] true demoniac nature unfortunately!We are attempting to be servants of the servants of radha and krishna......not conditioned souls hanging on to our bodily illusions

Nobody is failing to understand anything, sri govinda das. I think its safe to say that the consensus here among the thinking, rational, sane folks is that you need psychiatric care. Its beyond philosophical debate. Im not sure why the moderators here allow you to go on since theres some rule against constantly and consistently launching personal attacks. Thats all you do. You pontificate, condescend, tell people theyre fools, demons and parasites ..... and put just about everyone in a defensive stance where they can either just be silent and let you continue to rant and rave or, as I am doing against my better judgment, speaking out and throwing the grenade back in your court. So what are you going to tell me now that Im a stupid American because it wasnt "us" who invented grenades? You really are a screwball and you are ruining the entire atmosphere of this forum. In fact -- I am in touch with a number of people by emails who, like myself, have taken an interest in Krishna consciousness and who are studying Srila Prabhupadas teachings. We have discussed the different websites that have to do with Krishna consciousness and four people have told me that they used to come here to read the comments but since you have begun posting they stay away because you give them the creeps. You are turning people away. Do you know that?

SGD we were talking about recent history, the last hundred years and who had access to the atomic bomb first, Hitler or the Americans. You said Hitler had it first that means you are wrong! So stop trying to change the fact that you dont know your recent history.

So much science of a different kind was available in the previous yuga but that has been lost now. In the times of the Mahabharata they had weapons that were so precise they could take out certain individuals amongst a mass of others, they were weapons that were initiated by mantra and are not really to be compared to the gross weapons of the Kali Yuga.

SGD your moronic rantings, ravings and blasphemous tone do not resemble any Gaudiya Vaisnava teachings I have ever seen and do not deserve any response,
I wont be responding to your garbage anymore so rant away!

Actually srila Prabhupada did mention that the germans had infact created the atom bomb,and that adolf hitler had decided not to drop it!I have it in my krishna concious records. I will endeavour to find the actual quote.However when you want to throw innuendo and take on older devotees...you get the results and their mercy!
If you think me wrong please show it with an adequate Srila Prabhupada quote or even a gaudiya matha archarya quote Manasi-seva and hashama!Otherwise you appear just as sentimentalists.....hovering on the mental plane!

Sri Govinda Dasa - For a moment i thought you had decided to hang up your
spear and shield. Okay i would like to have a closure on this and this is my
last say. You are suppose to help the servant of the servant of the servant of
Sri Krsna and sweet Lord Krsna Himself to liberate the fallen condition souls from this material world. NOT that you liberate their laxmi by selling them stickers and sunglasses and whatnots just to maintain your temples and worse call them demons.

I am sure this is NOT what HDGSP wanted his disciples or his grand disciples to do.So please do not quote sweet Lord Krsna or HDGSP or any other personal associates of Lord Krsna saying that you too can imitate Them simply because you happen to come realize that you are a finite spark of the supreme Lord marginal potency. HDGSP didnt travel thousand of miles at the ripe old age with failing health to teach his disciples how to be rude and crude to the general public. So, please do not spoil his good name or the good name of sweet Lord Krsna.

Get to realise that in time to come you will be dead and gone. And all your self glorification will also be finished together with your tribal chief post and your rip and tear from the demons abilities. What happens to you after that will depend on
how Supreme Lord Sri Krsna favours you.

Forgive me if i have in any way offended you. Hare Krsna, Prabhu

Sorry sg.... for upseting your sensitive sweet appreciation of krishna conciousness.Since you are shore that to sell parapenalia is not what krishna wanted his senior devotees to do,please offer your practical answers and years of experience on the sankirtan front line to what will pay for the temples,land ,capital and iskcon organisation to flourish?For example how do we pay a twenty five million dollar mortgage ,with twenty sankirtan devotees and a congregation of several hundred?The prasadam bill is 4,ooo -6,ooo dollars a week!The mortgage usually is ten thousand a month minimum.....sometimes $20,000.Selling books usually pays the petrol and basic traveling costs plus a meagre stipend to help temple expenses.So that soon is simply insufficent.....so what is your idea?And which temple has followed this opportune strategy,you offer......and been successful at it? Please give us your vision....your servant ...[ps because i can certainly off what srila Prabhupadas servants did successfully!]

The word overendeavor comes to my mind...

Devotee (1): What if were going on sankirtana or something like that, how can we be sure that we wont fall down, we wont overendeavor? How can we be sure that were not pushing ourselves too much?
Prabhupada: You will feel sure as you make progress. Just like when you are eating, hungry, as you feel satisfaction and hunger satisfied, you can know yourself. [break] (CC 1.1.15, Dallas, March 4, 1975)

Maybe your congregation isnt ready yet for such a big temple. Why not go the namahatta way instead? It should also increase the commitment. (You said many members lack it.)

Sri Govinda Dasa - Thats a big overhead headache on your hands. Cant help
you there. I am a simple person with very small overhead. I understand your
position. But that was not the issue. Anyway, for me the night of Shivaratri
is over. I shall meet you again on another thread on a issue of interest and we
shall cross swords again ... ahem...sorry.... spears. Hare Krsna Prabhu.

I voluntarily offer my humble obeisances on behalf of a few old soliders,yes we should have been logical as Veda suggests. But as a generation we took the high risk option.Many will fail to understand ....yes it was a un-natural ,almost insurmountable task.Which drove many into over commitment and burn out in many circumstances,but it does not make their sacrifice mundane or any less sublime, at least in my veiw.sg it was the issue for me and my generation....it was our time!Hare krishna!

VEDA >>Maybe your congregation isnt ready yet for such a big temple. Why not go the namahatta way instead? It should also increase the commitment. (You said many members lack it.)

I totally agree with VEDA, whats the point in stressing devotees out over building and mortgage maintenance, the shastra says only do the minimum required to maintain body and home, so you can spend the rest of your time in devotional activities.

As we all know its great to have big arrangements but someone will have to maintain it all. The Grhasta ashram and the community should be maintaining the temples/ashrams and the Brahmachari and Sannyas ashrams should be free to study, preach, worship deity etc. etc.

If your Grhasta ashram and your supporting community cannot maintain the temple and the Brahmacharis have to get involved with making money then they run the risk of Brahmacharis falling down or at the very least their sadhana becomes compromised due to involvments in business and handling money, I have seen it happen dozens of times. Then you start losing devotees and then it becomes more difficult to maintain.

If you had a community of 200 families each giving $100.00 per week you would have $20,000 per week, unfortunately there has been little focus on Namhatta and community development so this isnt an option in most zones. Some zones have big Indian communities that are taking up the maintenance of some of the Iskcon temples.

Since you appear to be from outside the iskcon team manasi seva prabhu; would it not be fair to say that you do not shoot for the white rhino?This small time mentality seems inconsistant with srila Prabhupada and his servant ambarisa das;who has just initialised construction of the immense vedic city ;airport and planetarium in sri dhama Mayapura.Why have you so little faith in the mercy of Radha madhava ?We are young .....please do not judge the newer iskcon devotees,like myself with your narayanna maharaja and his freinds who have created these possibly foreign moods to appear within our preaching zone!Should you not just keep to your side of the fence......after all do not good fences make good neighbours?

yamala_arjuna_das...(SGD) your last account has been banned take the hint!

Please let me, jump in here boots and all....miss sg ,since you are like myself,incapable as to how to acheive such amazing preaching results .....can we not just say it is an ISKCON SPECIALTYpossibly,illustrating their superior use of the energies of durgadevi in the service of RADHA KRISHNA!

sri_govinda_das_you_seem_to_be_suffering_from_multiple_personality_disorder_along_with_an_obsession_to_use_ the_underscore_in_the_names_of_ each_one_of_your_personalities.

sri_govinda_das ... please, Im asking you as a well-wisher from many miles away ... but for your own mental health please take a break from all of this. You seem to be on a short fuse and Im afraid that if you dont put a stop to all this craziness youre going to explode into a million fragments. Just walk away from it for awhile. You can always come back when you feel rested and rejuvenated. My intention here is not to make fun of you nor goad you on ... but to hopefully help you see the folly and futility of what youre doing here. You arent accomplishing anything. Youre not helping anybody. Youve managed to disrupt the entire atmosphere here and for the past few weeks Ive watched this website deteriorate as you latch onto each and every topic and hit the ground running (in circles). Enough is enough. I dont think anybody here wants to watch you crash and burn. Youre a family man, your intentions are good and, like everyone else participating here, you have opened your heart and allowed the love and light emanating from the lotus feet of His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada to enter. You are just a little confused -- thats all. Hare Krishna, Prabhuji.

Many a bad habit is developed through overindulgence, and many a good one by chastisement,
therefore beat your son as well as your pupil; never indulge them. ("Spare the rod and spoil the
child.....seems as though we need the heavy rod around here,according to chanakya pandit......ha ha ha please let us hear from sri govinda das he really knows how to rile folks!

Interesting how so much has changed within the general community of devotees within a few years.In sydney we are very fortunate because the preachers are being financed by an expert Prabhupada disciple named Pratapana das.Who used to be the temple president many years ago but now does immense service by financing indradumya maharajas major festival in poland to the tune of 60,000 dollars annually.while generally supporting the general expenses regularly!As a consequence things are quietly dynamic within iskcon Australia.So personally we would find such financial goals not so daunting in reality.But that is the nature of being sincere for thirty to forty years of devotional service,eventually you face the reality that there is simply nothing worthwhile outside book distribution and devotional service.Hence srila Prabhupadas unique mood allows things to literally boom devotionally if you are sincere.....we are not limited by our lack of genuine devotional spirit nor by lazy fellows doing nothing!WE still imbibe his original spirit and hopefully treasure its transmission to the next generation hopefully in tact......though lord siva is the greatest vaisnava we still stay loyal to the original iskcon spirit ,hence it is not a normal integral service or arti in our temples locally.

Actually these days manasi seva prabhu the disciples of devarita maharaja receive free accomadation in sydney,supplied by Pratapana das.Usually all the brahmacari followers spend 12 months at a time in sydney.... just to keep enthused,since as one of my new freinds complained to me.....only the maori buy books there easily!....New Zealand!