Pariprashnena — Q&A Archive

These books have been mentioned by our Acaryas so it is natural curious persons will develop an interest in reading them.
At this time with so much information available via the internet etc,the Gaudiya Vaisnava literatures could/are being made accessable by unscrupulous persons.
The Acarya teaches according to time,place and circumstance so Srila Narayana Maharaj has very kindly commented on these books to render them harmless but beautiful to ineligble fools and deep and illumminating for the advanced Vaisnavas.

The key word is "And then everything will be . . . Theyll guide. Then what there
is. . ." and "Ederke ghrina karben na."

and

N'e4r'e4ya'eba Mah'e4r'e4ja: Apanar ei adesh mani. Ara katha ami Srila Prabhupader
sisyagana yara achen, yara ekhane nei, ami taderke balaba. To to balaba. Ar yena
sakale mile ederke ektu sahayya kare eti ektu adeshnirdesh mato diye yate
bhalabhabe susthubhabe era caluk ami balaba. Apani kona chinta karben na.
I accept your order. Those disciples of 'c7r'e9la Prabhup'e4da
[Bhaktisiddh'e4nta Sarasvat'e9 'd6h'e4kura] who are not here, I will speak to them. (here translation goes off..)
Just as you told me'97verbatim. I will also tell them that they should all try to
guide them [your disciples] so that they can progress nicely according to your
wish. Everyone should try to help and give them the needed guidance, so they
can manage nicely. Please do not worry about anything. Remember only the
lotus feet of 'c7r'e9 R'e4dh'e4-K'e5'f1'eba.(where is this?)

But it is clear:

N'e4r'e4ya'eba Mah'e4r'e4ja: Whenever they will call me, consult with me, wherever
they will ask me to go, I will do according to my ability.

\and here come the monkey bit;-) (the translation is trying to avoid this connotation)

Eder-to bamsha-gata kichu nai. Sab mleccha, yaban gharer,
yatata pari shiksa diyechi, karche ora.

Bamsagata kichu nai, mean hopelessly born not even as a proper human.

"so-called godbrothers" ??

So you are saying that Prabhupada would look at narayana Mh. and see the manifest form of Krishna? But he did not appreciate it?

Actually they added those words to the translation as they are not in Bengali so now he did not suggest to remember or instructed him to do so, he just told him that he should not worry.I worry that those who translated it made it look this way.

So much can get lost in translation and besides, Narayana Maharaja even suggests that recordings were destroyed -- tapes that would further corroborate his claims.

Comes a time when a disciple just has to ask himself, "is this really what my spiritual master wants me to do? If I do like this am I causing my guru maharaja displeasure or am I giving him cause to smile? If a disciple is genuinely sincere in his/her intentions then guidance will come.

These days the GBC itself is really a moot point, does anyone really take them seriously anymore? after the GBC themselves has been proven historically to make so many mistakes and historically have protected their own inner circle over and above truth and honesty I see nothing that they put forth as beyond reproach.

Its funny actually all this reaction to Narayana Maharaja is giving more power to NM. All I take from NMs statements is that if someone wishes his help and instructions then he will freely help them, that is all he has offered. Should you feel that you dont want his help then dont take it, what is the big deal about this anyway? After all these years some devotees are so immature that they cannot handle it when another Guru explains things slightly differently.

Any devotee is free to approach any other devotee for help and guidance to help one further their devotion to Radha and Krishna and to Srila Prabhupada, of course one must be mature enough and at least must have read all of Srila Prabupadas books so one can check if the advice being given is a deviation or whether it is genuine help.

maah! you cannot be serious to compare Narayana Maharja to a conditioned soul and then using that argument to say therefore he cannot be a god brother of Srila Prabhupada. Actually he never claimed to be his god brother, he is Srila Prabhupadas God Nephew. Maybe you should take your own advice about blind men because you sure dont seem to be up with the facts on NM and you are gonna tell us what the followers of Srila Rupa Goswami do and what they dont do? After labelling a person who has dedicated his life to Srila Rupa Goswamis teachings as a conditioned soul? and what is this nonsense about master and servant being the only true relationship? It is accepted that in our disciplic line that great souls belonging to the same Guru may well have an eternal relationship as they are also eternal associates of their Guru.

Manasi,it only takes a tiny little bit of enlightened actual discriminatory adikara to see that there is no comparison between Sri Guru and an ordinary Brahman guru.
All the years practicing and u r still so lacking in such,it seems. Quality above quantity always,IMHO.

It is offence to compare Sri Vaisnava Acarya with ordinary guru.


In this instance Maals genuine spiritual understanding renders your seemingly puny understanding pathetic and disgusting,IMHO.

Be careful not to offend such rare sincere sisya like Maal.

Otherwise,U r going to get it,for sure!
U could be cursed! :o(

Hope u become well! Likewise onto myself.

Ysvt.

HK!

ND Its really quite simple maah fails to get his facts right, NM never claims to be the god brother of Srila Prabhupada because he isnt, he is Srila Prabhupadas god nephew. If you think I am being offensive by pointing out a simple fact then so be it.

NM is a Vaisnava Acharya whether you like it or not...it is you who lay great offense by your words of calling NM an ordinary Brahman Guru? Not even a Vaisnava Guru? wow so erudite of you ND, your realizations are deep and to be praised!

Your comments like:

[In this instance Maals genuine spiritual understanding renders your seemingly puny understanding pathetic and disgusting,IMHO]

reveals your childish nature of pitching against sides rather than appreciating differences and seeing all the Gaudiya Vaisnavas under the family tree of Mahaprabhu. its its maah by the way not maal.

You can call me all the names under the Sun, I dont really care, but to label a Gaudiya Vasinava like NM an ordinary person or some simple Brahman Guru that is something you will have to answer for when the times comes.

I am not sure who maah is quoting here as many devotees refer to their Guru by the name of Srila Gurudeva he should be more specific.

maah loves to contradict himself...he uses some example where the highlight is that a Kanistha never pays proper respect to other Vaisnavas, which is exactly what maah and you ND are doing. Therefore it is better to pay respects from a distance if someone is not to your liking, not to sit in on judgement over those that have dedicated their entire lives to Sri Chaitainya Mahaprabhu.

The simple fact is whatever the GBC put out in their resolutions it hasnt stopped anyone who wishes to take shelter or to take help from NM and some of the Iskcon Gurus even visit NM so any hard line you put forth against NM appears to be a moot point.

Even the GBC states in the very PDF that this thread relates to: "The Governing Body Commission members and other senior leaders of ISKCON wish to acknowledge the long relationship of N'e4r'e4yan Mah'e4r'e4ja with Srila Prabhup'e4da. We honor the service he has rendered Srila Prabhup'e4da and ISKCON in the past and remain grateful to him." They are not name calling or dis-honouring NM they are simply disagreeing historically with what was said.

Do you think by criticizing Narayan Maharaja you are making Srila Prabhupada happy?

I am surprised this thread is not closed because its simply becoming another bashing session of Narayan Maharaj where certain individuals find fault and criticize Gaudiya Vaisnavas, there have been enough threads on this website that have already done that.

maah you are spamming the thread please stop, if you cannot put your point forward in a few sentences then you need to go back and rethink your ideas. I havent read one word of your above spam because most of it is just cut and pasted from any and every source you can find...its like a pile of hodge podge.

Please read the admin rules on spamming the threads:

[Some devotees are posting several times in a row, that is considered spam and is not allowed, and those posts will be moderated.]

http://www.pariprashnena.com/discussion/48/from-the-admin/#Item_0

What a lame post from Manasa. Ulterior motive?

Not that he is somehow a little adverse to this unique glorification of Founder-Acharya.

These quotes, although OT, inspired me to add refs to http://www.veda.harekrsna.cz/encyclopedia/spacarya.htm

Manasi,This is what it means to be Sri Vaisnava Acharya. Is it so difficult for u? Try and understand![quote][cite] maah!:[/cite]All glories to Srila Prabhupada! Hare Krishna.

Sorry i just couldnt resist posting this wonderful quote from the link:

Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura then comments: "Without being empowered by the direct potency of Lord Krishna to fulfill His desire and without being specifically favored by the Lord, no human being can become the spiritual master of the whole world. He certainly cannot succeed by mental concoction, which is not meant for devotees or religious people. Only an empowered personality can distribute the holy name of the Lord and enjoin all the fallen souls to worship Krishna. By distributing the holy name of the Lord, he cleanses the hearts of the most fallen people; therefore he extinguishes the blazing fire of the material world. Not only that, he broadcasts the shining brightness of Krishnas effulgence throughout the world. Such an acharya, or spiritual master, should be considered nondifferent from Krishna - that is, he should be considered the incarnation of Lord Krishnas potency. Such a personality is krsnalingita-vigraha - that is, he is always embraced by the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Krishna. Such a person is above the considerations of the varnasrama institution. He is guru or spiritual master for the entire world, a devotee of the topmost platform, the maha-bhagavata stage, and a paramahamsa-thakura, a spiritual form only fit to be addressed as paramahamsa or thakura."[/quote]

As usual maah you always go way off topic, your endless posts trying to establish what everyone already knows that Srila Prabhupada is the founder Acharya of Iskcon, you are creating another straw man argument. I never disputed Srila Prabhupadas position or what he came to achieve. I am a big supporter of Srila Prabhupada and I have read all of his books , you dont need to spam this forum with endless quotes to preach to the converted.

As usual if anyone tries to tell someone to stop blaspheming Gaudiya Vaisnavas outside of Iskcon one is labelled with an anti Srila Prabhupada sticker, its a weird logic but it seems to be very much alive in this forum.

No one in this thread compared NM to Srila Prabhupada, another straw man argument. NM is a Gaudiya Vaisnava and he is a Bhaktivedanta and he is an Acharya and a leading disciple in the lineage of his own guru. So on those grounds he is a Gaudiya Vaisnava Acharya. But in saying that, it in no way compares him to Srila Prabhupada.

You need to follow the example of the GBC, they are disputing Narayan Maharajas account of what Srila Prabhupada said and they have every right to do so. But they are not blaspheming him.

I will reiterate what I have said many times in this forum, I am not disciple of N.M and I do not seek refuge in his camp but I will in no way endorse foolish criticism of someone who has dedicated their entire life to Gauranga Mahaprabhu.

Yes the GBC are polite maah, so my question is why arent you? What example are you following? by which you call someone like NM a conditioned soul? This is just another example of where Iskcon devotees rarely ever reach a level of maturity and realise how to respect and deal with Gaudiya Vaisnavas outside of Iskcon. The GBC are polite and their mood towards Gaudiya Vaisnavas outside of Iskcon is far better than it ever was, its just a shame that this doesnt always filter down to the rank and file.

Srila Prabhupada was always a gentleman. He told us once that the real meaning of diplomacy is that you can criticize someone without making them angry. Even sometimes Srila Prabhupada would point out some shortcomings among his godbrothers in the matter of preaching the message of Mahaprabhu in every town and village rather than fighting for power and property in the courts -- but he did so to protect his disciples from outside agitation. When he heard about one disciple repeating in public some of the things he had said or wrote in a letter about his godbrothers Srila Prabhupada chastised him and said, "I can criticize them but you should not."

What Manasi Seva wrote above (.... I am not a disciple of NM and I do not seek refuge in his camp but I will in no way endorse foolish criticism of someone who has dedicated their entire life to Gauranga Mahaprabhu.") --- that is the mature mentality and it is also a spiritually safe place to be. After all -- should we not pay respects to anyone who has even a tiny attraction for the Holy Name in this age of Kali?

My dear Maah -- I think you need to grow up and refine your understanding of Srila Prabhuadas mood and mission before you assume the position as his defender and spokesperson. Youre skating on thin ice so ease off on the rhetoric and for the love of God --- there is no need to fill up screens with your consecutive posts. Are you writing a book? If so then write it on your own time and when youre all done with it let us know and maybe well read it -- but this is not your private blog site -- this is a public forum so chill out, Mr. Maah. By the way -- is that really your name? I mean -- obviously my name isnt Portnoy. Im undercover and on a mission from God -- but Im wondering wherefrom has come this odd name.

Sri Guru Acharya Ki Jaya!

(Yes,NM is Vaisnava Brahman Guru,highly learned. Acharya,maybe. Sri Acharya,Not.)

Outside of the Holy Ascendency everyone in this world is conditioned soul whether practicing devotee or not. Word.

Hope this helps!

Ysvt.

maah>>[I offer my prayers and respectful obeisances there with utmost care, savadhana mate. I shall never become careless.]

Tell me maah what is this careless statement that you made about Narayan Maharaja in your second post in this thread?

maah>>[So how, how, how can a conditioned soul really be his god-brother? It is apparent (so-called) relationship only. The true, eternal, spiritual relationship is one of master and servant, savior and saved between such Acarya as Srila Prabhupada and the conditioned souls. But this they dont understand. We are very much aspiring to understand the Lord in all His Glory, but they are satisfied with their mundane conceptions. Therefore they cannot help us. If a blind man takes help of another blind man they both end up in the ditch.]

1) Narayan Maharaja is Srila Prabhupadas God Nephew he is not his God Brother.
2) It is apparent (so-called) relationship only? I didnt realize maah that you were above Srila Prabhupada in being able to jude which of his relationships were real and which ones are only apparent and so called, for give us all maah we failed to recognise your holiness!
3) The main relationship for a shishya (disciple) is the Guru, but a shishya will have many other relationships with God brothers, sisters, uncles, nephews etc etc etc and how that shishya deals with all of these relationships will depend on their maturity.
4) Do you really think that Narayan Maharaja after spending over 50 years as a Sannyas in the Gaudiya Math, being awarded the title of Bhaktivedanta for his massive contribution of translations and published writings to Sri Chaitanyas movement does not understand the relationship between Guru and disciple?
5) You dear maah are very much aspiring to understand the Lord in all His Glory, but they (NM) are satisfied with their mundane conceptions?
6) [Therefore they cannot help us. If a blind man takes help of another blind man they both end up in the ditch.] Who is really blind maah is it you or Narayan Maharaja?

Srila Prabhupada loved Narayan Maharaja they had a very spiritual relationship that began from the time they first met, if you had read Srila Prabhupadas own hand writing in his letters to NM you would know that.

Here is another excerpt from a letter of Srila Prabhupada to Sripada Narayan Maharaja dated Dec 15th, 1966

"I came to know that my disciple Chandrasekhara from Delhi wrote you a letter, Chandrasekhara sent me a copy of your reply to him. In that letter I came to know that foolish Chandrasekhara had blasphemed you. Fools do not know how to honour Vaisnavas. By your greatness please excuse him. I havent instructed him to do such a thing. I only told him to visit you. Anyway excuse his aparadha. Chandrasekhara is a good man, but out of foolishness he used bad words to you. Please forgive him and me by your greatness."

Just see how a foolish disciple not only commits the offence of aparadha but also embarrasses his own Guru as the disciples words and actions also reflects upon the Guru.

So its time we all matured up and accepted that there are many branches to the family tree of Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu and Iskcon is only one branch, of course a devotee will see the branch where they are located as being special because that is where they are getting love and inspiration towards their supreme goal. But to insult and blaspheme devotees from another branch serves no purpose and diminishes the name of Gaudiya Vaisnavas in general (we are all responsible for our actions)

So if anyone here makes the claim of loving Srila Prabhupada and is interested only in Iskcon, fine! but behave in a manner that honours and reflects Srila Prabhupadas position of being the Shaktya Vesa Avatar of this era who is without comparison. If you cannot find kind words to honour other Gaudiya Vaisnavas then say nothing at all. Even our mothers and fathers used to say "If you cannot say something nice then better to say nothing at all"

I am not pro- or anti- Narayana Maharaja but I think this is quite an unthoughful question, given that only person who can accurately answer it is Narayana Maharaja himself. Rasa108 as its your question can you please write to Narayana Maharaja and ask him and post the response here? Otherwise all your question seems to have achieved is to incite a (yet another) verbal war, and Im sure you didnt want that.

Having read the paper, I am disappointed that there doesnt seem to be any evidence of the GBC personally asking Narayana Maharaja for clarification on his position before they published their version of it. To me, it just makes it all the more ironic that the GBC open the paper by saying that they apologise for their lack of communication with Narayana Maharaja.

Since it is very obvious that there is a certain Narayanna maharaja bias....or at least a anti-iskcon flavour by the admin,is it worth further humble devotional discussions i asked my self?So with this personal veiw expressed ...since banning devotees who disagree with your personal veiws is very much a fervent part of iskcon management style.......Well at least that same attribute seems to have lasted within even the fractured anti-iskcon parties being illuminated on this forum in my opinion.Well hopefully i am wrong....
Having seen the revealing anti-iskcon mood fully revealed on this humble forum....when devotees like portnoy tell others to f*ck themselves,and then any number of horrendous insults spurt forth from their demoniac minds,why are they not banned permanently...like others[SRI_GOVINDA_DAS] whose fault was never publicly openly expressed to him BY ADMIN,or am i wrong PRABHUS?

Obviously those who can voice their opinions loud and clear are more dangerous than those who are anti-sampradaya,anti-devotional,uncouth,blasphemers like narayanna maharaja and simply just plain rude like borokrishna when he calls my freind tamala krishna goswami a child molester ,and then openly refutes his story to get the real story instantly.....!WHY DOES THE ADMIN NOT BAN SUCH HORRIFIC UNCULTURED pERSONS....HOW CAN CULTURED DEVOTEES LET THIS BLASPHEMING CARRY ON?iT APPEARS THAT THEY ALSO ARE IMPLICATED .....or is there another veiw which i have over looked?Please explain this to me...especially manasi seva prabhu....why do you simply allow such child molestation insults to be voiced?Did sri govinda das ever call narayanna maharaja a child F@cker......Obviously the admin is prone to settle on the side of the anti party.....at least that is how it appears from the veiw of this simple dasi veiw.Personally iskcon seems damned ...because it is not aggressive enough,because literally they have the practical monopoly in the worldwide preaching......all these narayanna maharaja devotees are simply from iskcon originally,practically 90 percent at least!When the anti party which is in this case narayanna maharaja ,simply embelishes the truth for his own ends!Iskcon is not heavy enough...we should ban all his followers openly and out right!

>Bir Krsna Goswami wrote:.....Nowhere in our scriptures do you find a self-realized personality identifying himself in terms of his designation.

You see it all the time...Arjuna, Bhisma, Prahlada Maharaja all played perfectly according to their designation. Even Bhagavan Shri Krishna behaves according to a varna and an ashram in order to set an example for the conditioned souls. There are generally two types of people who dont identify with and behave according to a designation: sahajiyas or avadhutas. We are not either, are we?

>Bir Krsna Goswami wrote: .... in the forum of Godbrothers the etiquette is dealings between equals, giving equal respect to all Godbrothers...

Not necessarily so. There are copious instructions on how to treat different levels of Vaishnavas according to their different qualifications and seniority. Who their guru is is of no relevance whatsoever.

Would you say then that it would be politically incorrect when I sign my letters and e-mails as "My Holiness?"

>Rasa108 as its your question can you please write to Narayana Maharaja and ask him and post the response here? Otherwise all your question seems to have achieved >is to incite a (yet another) verbal war, and Im sure you didnt want that.

Yes you are right Deena, I never wish to incite verbal wars....just a discussion about ALL topics that involve Srila Prabhupadas great Hare Krsna movement.

"The asembly in which Vaisnavas are blasphemed will be ruined, even if all other religious principles are observed. If an assembly of sannyasis indulges in blasphemy, then that assembly is more sinful than an assembly of drunkards. A drunkard will be delivered in due course of time, but one who engages in blasphemy wil...l never attain the goal of life." Cb Madhya 13.41-43.

[quote][cite] borokrsnadasa:[/cite]"The asembly in which Vaisnavas are blasphemed will be ruined, even if all other religious principles are observed. If an assembly of sannyasis indulges in blasphemy, then that assembly is more sinful than an assembly of drunkards. A drunkard will be delivered in due course of time, but one who engages in blasphemy wil...l never attain the goal of life." Cb Madhya 13.41-43.[/quote]

and what constitutes blasphemy beyond naive institutional interpretations?
Jaya Gaura Bhakta-Vrnda!

Nrsingha d: "and what constitutes blasphemy ......."

Now theres a question that ought to launch a whole new thread.

> What would be the source of those rules? Do you have it somewhere handy?

ccd, no not handy, but if you give me a few days I am happy to source some references.

> Yes you are right Deena, I never wish to incite verbal wars....just a discussion about ALL topics that involve Srila Prabhupadas great Hare Krsna movement.

Thats great rasa108 but instead of inciting just a discussion, how about inciting an informed discussion? How about you write to Narayana Maharaja and ask him if he thinks he was correctly represented and post his response here? If we cant take at least this steps, then I think such discussions are destined to degrade to something akin to tabloid journalism, i.e. without any factual content, just opinionated opinions intertwined with fantastic allegations and assertions. Is that what you want? Probably not, but without taking responsibility to bring useful information to contribute, thats what youll get.

Tell you what, lets join forces in trying to create an informed discussion - Yesterday I wrote to the GBC Secretary address provided in the GBC paper and asked them if the GBC approached Narayana Maharaja for clarification on his position before they published their paper, and if not, why not. If I get a response Ill post it here. You write to Narayana Maharaja and post his response here. Cmon rasa108 this isnt 7th grade and were not doing this just to pass the time or write a high school paper. This is a serious subject so lets be serious about investigating and getting accurate information. I think this is the best way to honour Srila Prabhupadas great Hare Krsna movement, as opposed to being passive armchair inciters of discussion. Although you say you never wish to incite verbal wars, this will be the effect unless you extend reasonable effort to bring accurate and informed details to the table.

To be honest,I do not thing that any of these gurus should be given worship (Saksad Hari) because, they are all conditioned soul. KC nonetheless accordingly,of course. Honour yes,worship no. I think They should maybe only perform initiations and take disciples as Brahmana Guru within Dwadi-Varnashram,never imitating the position and the peerage that is Sri Guru Acharya. That belongs to liberated souls only. Ascendency.
Ysvt.

Deena I think you are 100% correct, if threads of this nature are going to be posted it needs to invite intelligent and meaningful discussion not just fan the flames of politics and start people on a path of mud slinging and incite devotees to start insulting one Acharya over another Acharya. We should all be very careful not to buy into party politics because its an easy trap. Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu was not exclusive he was inclusive of anyone who raised their arms and chanted the holy name he did not politicise and say oh sorry your guru has not reached ascendancy or you are in the wrong camp or branch of Vaishnavas. He embraced anyone and everyone even the drunkards.

Coming online and publishing your words in a forum is actually no different to appearing 100 years ago in a market place in Nabadwip with copies of your written opinions about Gaudiya Vaisnavas and handing them out to anyone who reads them. You need to be mindful and aware that just as you think your Guru is the supreme embodiment of compassion and has descended to save you, others also may also feel the same way about their Guru. Throwing out opinions on who has reached ascendancy and who has not and who should be worshipped and who should not is to bring it down to a level of playing in a sandpit and fighting over who has the best toy.

We need to take Sri Chaitanyas example and see that anyone who raises their arms and chants the maha mantra and is developing love for Radha and Krishna they are already in the correct camp no matter whether it is our ashram or some other Gaudiya Vaisnavas ashram. We think ourselves sometimes to be big intellectuals because we have read this book or that book and we can cut and paste from other peoples writings, yet we miss the most simple of observations.

Srila Prabhupada may well have been the rising sun giving full daylight so that his disciples could see so clearly while he was here, but the sun set back in 1977. All others that follow may only be like torch lights in comparison but even a torch light can illuminate a path at night and stop you from falling into a deep ditch. We need to stop comparing and start appreciating that anyone who can inspire us and shine some light on this path is to be praised not persecuted and insulted.

Manasi->Srila Prabhupada may well have been the rising sun giving full daylight so that his disciples could see so clearly while he was here, but the sun set back in 1977. All others that follow may only be like torch lights in comparison.

Yes,thats the distinguishable point that I believe one should understand and the same understanding that is recommended by Acaryas.

So NM and the other Iskcon gurus are,u could say touchlight gurus. All glories to their partial and helpful illumination. When another Sampredaya Sun arises,everyone will benefit, I believe even our touchlight Gurus.
Jaya Nityananda-Rama and his ascended representatives.

Iskcon Guru Vrnda ki jaya!

Jaya Guru and Gauranga!

Gaura bhakta-vrnda ki jaya!

Jaya yes,I believe its called Siksa. [quote][cite] ccd:[/cite]Kripamoya Das

Yes, we'92ve been talking about this subject for a long time '96 since 1977 as you say. Now its 2010 and we'92re still talking about it. And it will go on'85and on'85

Why? Scripture says that three subjects will get everyone talking '96 because everyone has different opinions about three subjects. What are they?

The first is the position of Lord Shiva, the second is the position of the Holy Dhama, the third is the guru. Why these three? Well, they are all within this material world, but simultaneously not within this world. Their reality '96 and hence their true position '96 is seen differently by different viewers, and so all viewers have a different opinion '96 and speak that opinion with others, too.

Even when we turn to Srila Prabhupada'92s writings the discussion seems not to be brought to any conclusion, since what he wrote can be interpreted in different ways.

True religion is following in the footsteps of the greatest devotees of the Lord, then at least we know we'92re on the right track if we'92re overcoming our material attachments, developing affection for the Lord and his devotees, and steadily practising our daily sadhana. If we don'92t notice these changes in ourselves, and if spiritual steadiness is not there, then we may need some help. When we take some help from someone, it can be regarded that the Lord has helped us by sending that person to us. Our relationship with that person should be one of respect and gratitude in order that we get the maximum benefit from the exchanges. But first we have to trust that person by letting him/her into our life just a little bit. If we'92ve been disappointed by our first experiences with such a spiritual relationship, to the extent that we feel we can never really trust anyone again, then of course we will never meet such a person.

Can we get everything we need for our spiritual life from Srila Prabhupada'92s books? Yes, but in his books we will read about the extraordinary value of relationships with spiritual teachers. So if we value his teachings, we'92ll also strive to find others we can trust.
http://deshika.wordpress.com/2010/03/26/im-starting-my-own-movement/#comment-4510[/quote]

Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura, Sri Caitanya Siksamrta, Chapter 7, Part 1:
"Those who have not attained pure rati and sense control make futile attempts to become qualified for rasa by practicing rasa. That taste which arises naturally in a person on the level of prema is called rasa. The discussion of rasa is only a description of how the various elements combine in the different rasas; it is not a part of sadhana. Therefore, if anyone says that he will teach you the sadhana of rasa, he is an impostor or a fool.
I am pleased to offer this quote to introduce myself ,i see the nefarious Narayanna maharaja whom my siksa guru gaura-govinda maharaja said was a jnani and not an authorised follower of Srila PRABHUPADA has a few converts! Deena why are you supporting a pretender to the legacy of SRILA BHAKTIVEDANTA SWAMI .....when has he surrendered to iskcon in your humble opinion?

> Deena why are you supporting a pretender to the legacy of SRILA BHAKTIVEDANTA SWAMI...?

Did you read my comment above where I state that I am neither for or against Narayana Maharaja? I have never met Narayana Maharaja, never attended any of his classes, and never read any of his books. The closest connection I have with Narayana Maharaja is that his disciple Mukunda prabhu, the head Pujari of the ISKCON Vrindavan Krishna Balaram Mandir, conducted the yajna at my wedding ceremony.

I have simply expressed my opinion that I was disappointed there doesnt seem to be any evidence of the GBC personally asking Narayana Maharaja for clarification on his position before they published their paper.

> .....when has he surrendered to Iskcon in your humble opinion?

I dont think he has ever surrendered to the ISKCON institution. But given the treatment he has received in being fully and firmly lovingly embraced and worshipped by several senior GBC and ISKCON leaders who within a couple years then fully and firmly rejected him, I cant see that he would ever want to. Would you? In the GBC paper under discussion, even the GBC apologise for the way they handled it.

Prabhus,Would this article be a valid warning or offensive critique?

http://www.harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/01-09/editorials3811.htm

thank u!

Ysvt.

Jaya Gauranga!

> Nrsingha d...Prabhus,Would this article be a valid warning or offensive critique?

My initial impression of the article is pretty much the same as my initial impression of the GBC paper, i.e Its fine to construct an argument based on letters, conversations or documents as they are the evidence that support the argument.....this is basic level journalism and investigative reporting. But how about being thorough and obtain a recent comment directly from the person concerned on the subject concerned to verify if you have accurately represented their position? Is this not fair and reasonable?

While we are entitled to form our private opinions using partially informed or uninformed reasoning, if one is publicly publishing an article or paper to convince or persuade others then we should at least be as thorough and informed as reasonably possible....this is also basic level journalism. Without doing so, such articles or papers are like investigative journalism which have excluded significant pieces of easily available information and which leave the unfortunate reader without all the pieces of the puzzle and ultimately in a poor position to confidently evaluate if an article or paper is in fact a valid warning, an offensive critique, or as is often the case and the most dangerous, a murky mix of the two.

I want to make informed decisions based on robust arguments and evidence, so until I hear something from the other side then I think my only reasonable, sensible, and gentlemanly option is to withhold my judgement until I can honestly say to myself, "Yes, I have heard both sides and my conclusion is...." Otherwise, its like a court case where one side presents their version of the accuseds position but then the accused is not given a chance to present their version. The technical term for this is kangaroo court and no honest judge would ever adjudicate such a case, nor would an honest lawyer ever participate in such a case.

So Nrsingha d, my answer to your question would be: Im not sure. Id like to hear from the other side first.

Do u think NM would even comment on such? Good points,nonetheless prabhu! One can never be sure. I can only be sure of a Vaisnava of the calibre of the previous Acharyas. So far that is my experience. I hope and pray that Krsna will give me Darshan and association of another such Vaisnava readily availiable on this plane. Sri Guru.

Ramasiksha das> i see the nefarious Narayanna maharaja whom my siksa guru gaura-govinda maharaja said was a jnani and not an authorised follower of Srila PRABHUPADA has a few converts!

Maah> There are plenty of websites for the cheaters to gather and admire themselves and their gurus, they should leave Pariprasnena and go there and reap the results of their faith. They do not need to be here, critisizing ISKCON, Srila Prabhupada, his servants.

Maah so far you are the only one who is criticising and blaspheming Narayana Maharaja. But now, I will critcize Srila prabhupada and Iskcon and you so that you understand what criticism is and how does it feel. Please read:

Srila Prabhupada(your Sriguru) criticizes negros for being black:

Room Conversation '97 October 5, 1975, Mauritius

This is Vedic civilization: plain living, high thinking. And poor thinking, poor in thought, poor in behavior, and living with motorcar and this, that, nonsense. It is all nonsense civilization. A first-class Rolls Royce car, and who is sitting there? A third-class negro. This is going on. You'92ll find these things in Europe and America. This is going on. A first-class car and a third-class negro. That'92s all. Is it not?

Most idiotic remark by a transcendentalist. NM has never said any such idiotic thing.

His views promoting idea that women enjoy being raped:

Purport SB 4.25.41

In this regard, the word vikhyatam is very significant. A man is always famous for his aggression toward a beautiful woman, and such aggression is sometimes considered rape. Although rape is not legally allowed, it is a fact that a woman likes a man who is very expert at rape.

NM has never been so silly.

Ramrashika das aka srigovinda das, you better annotate his books with your GBC and fix them rather than criticising NM.

dear admin

Your website has been used by people like srigovinda aka ramrashika, maah to blasphame others and spread hatred. It has been used as a tool only to disturb people and it is not serving any great purpose. It will be better to close this type of threads.

Mr. Maah!

If Srila Prabhupada ever heard you ... or anyone else ... refer to "the International Society for Srila Prabhupada Consciousness" as you did above ... he would be extremely angry and upset with you. Oh .. wait a minute ... he DID hear you. I think you need to stop presenting yourself as some big advice giver, scripture quoter, advanced something or other. You are very sure of yourself and your position but I think you are getting ahead of yourself. Youve been dispensing your wisdom (mostly in the form of cutting and pasting most likely from the VedaBase) long enough and maybe you ought to give it a break. Take a sabbatical. Take a vow of cyber silence for a month. Itll do you some good.

Kalachakra: So Im wondering how such a brilliant idea manifested itself inside your brain --- that youll get back at Maah by insulting Srila Prabhupada. What a genius you must be to have figured that out. Clever boy. You come on here, quote Srila Prabhupada and call his words idiotic and then advise the moderators to shut this website down because it offends you. Well -- April isnt even over yet and you win the Asshole of the Month award. Congratulations.

Bhakti aka so many - Deep down you must really really really LOVE HDG NM
very very very much. It shows because most of the time you say something its
about HDG NM about how he is this and that. A person who dont really
like someone normally dont speak about him or her. You on the other hand do. So
stop all this pretense Bhakti aka so many and let us know your true feeling deep down.

>You are most welcome to condemn me.

No, I will not condemn you. Pouring shit over others guru will be answered by pouring shit over your guru. You started this game of pouring shit and I am ready to play with you without any hesistation.

>Those who say they accept Srila Prabhupada but act differently are cheaters and should be exposed for the benefit of others.

In your previous post you called NM nefarious and now cheater and I say that your guru SP was racist. He condemn negros for being black. Why are you speechless Guru Bhakta?

So, the one who pours bigger shit will be the winner.

Waiting for your next post.

Asshole of the month.

Srila Prabhupada deliniates how we should act.....he was dealing with his own envious godbrothers.Page 279...A Transcendental diary...january 19 1976.
Srila Prabhupada felt the problems were due to a lack of understanding of proper Vaisnava dealings.
What bothers me is their dictating mood.Why they should dictate?First of all let them become like me.Equality brings friendship.Who ever is older he will dictate;and whoever is younger,he will respect the superior.This is the rule.Neither they are equal nor senior,then why they should dictate?Who is superior,he will dictate;and who is equal,he should live like friend;and who is junior,they should follow and obey.
This is the Vaisnava rule.Those who are neither equal nor higher,how they can dictate?That is a mistake.Either,first of all become higher than him,then dictate;or become equal with him,then you suggest.You are lower,and you want to dictate.What is this nonsense?
.....so kalachakra prabhu you seem intent on revealing the sweet mellows of NARAYANNA MAHARAJAs and your own humble realisation in full on this public forum ....revealed in its full glory for all to see the result of following his teachings and devotional moods!Well done kalachackra prabhu!Haribol......

Maah! presense here is a great boon for us all. It amazes me that he cant be appreciated by some. Thats a real comment on the precarious nature of where we are. An scary eye opener for me. THIS IS MAYAS KINGDOM! This is Kali-Yuga.
Ysvt.

All glories to Srila Prabhupada.

>What bothers me is their dictating mood.Why they should dictate?First of all let them become like me.Equality brings friendship.Who ever is older he will dictate;and whoever is younger,he will respect the superior.This is the rule.Neither they are equal nor senior,then why they should dictate?Who is superior,he will dictate;and who is equal,he should live like friend;and who is junior,they should follow and obey.
This is the Vaisnava rule.Those who are neither equal nor higher,how they can dictate?That is a mistake.Either,first of all become higher than him,then dictate;or become equal with him,then you suggest.You are lower,and you want to dictate.What is this nonsense?

The fact is that the man was crazy, violent and aggressive.

Morning Walk '97 January 21, 1976, Mayapura
Those who are actually human being, you have to give them Kuc0u7771 u7779 u7751 a. And those who are mu363 u7693 has, we have to kill them. This is our business. Kill all the mu363 u7693 has and give Ku7771 u7779 u7751 a to the sane man. Yes. That will prove that you are really Ku7771 u7779 u7751 a'92s. We are not nonviolent. We are violent to the mu363 u7693 has.

His whole life fighting with godbrothers and in the end doubting his own disciples for poisoning him.

NM never preaches to kill people so crazy, violent followers like Ramrasiksa,Maah,Nrsingha d can not appreciate him.

U r mudha Kalachakra. Maya wants to kill you!

Is Kalachakra really Manasi doing one of his social experiments or something?

ramasiksa das is in fact Sri Govinda Das, and you have posted this quote before SGD about Bhaktivinoda Thakur and Sadhana Rasa, it is very clear that NM does not teach Sadhana rasa. The mere fact that SGD keeps coming into the forum and lying about who he is and trying to hide behind made up personas speaks volumes about his character. You may fool some people here SGD but not me.

maah what you are proposing is not substantiated in any written Vaishnava works, you are confusing Krishna Consciousness with Institutional Consciousness. Devotees of the lord and Gaudiya Vaishnava Acharyas existed a long time before Iskcon came along and they will exist a long time after Iskcon has gone the way of most instituions if it hasnt already.

The spiritual essence (love of god head) cannot be bottled up and sold by any particular Institution, the god head is worshipped and served by us it is never controlled by anything we can do. We can only offer our love and devotion to Radha and Krishna by way of our Guru and serving other Gaudiya Vaishnavas. If Radha and Krishna accept our love and devotion then we are successful but there is nothing we can do to force it or control it, and saying that only one institution can give you access to god head is a foolish and naive statement. We are the servants not the masters.

maah >>The International Society for Krishna Consciousness that I know is truly Srila Prabhupada and Krishna Consciousness together.

Srila Prabhupada has left the planet, that sun has now set. If Iskcon was Srila Prabhupada and Iskcon was 100% Krishna Conscious it would have never have presided over years of child abuse. With all the mistakes that Iskcon has made we can deduce that Iskcon is not Srila Prabhupada it is an Incorporated Institution, what is special is the instructions and writings that Srila Prabhupada left us and his sincere disciples that follow these instructions. If your argument is correct that one can only stay connected to the Guru by staying in his institution then that also means Srila Prabhupada disconnected himself from his Guru by leaving the Gaudia Math, however we all know that isnt true following the Guru means following his instructions not just sitting inside an institution.

Institutional Consciousness is not substantiated by Guru, Sadhu and Shastra, there are zero references in any of our teachings that profess Institution consciousness, its born out of ego consciousness eg: my Guru is best, my society is the best, my team is the best and why? Because I am the best.

kalachakra, I dont think it is a wise path you are taking and if you are a follower, supporter or just an admirer of Narayan Maharaja I know for a fact he would be very displeased to hear you speak of Srila Prabhupada in this way, again if people cannot say something nice then you should say nothing at all. For god sake stop this mud slinging it is reducing this forum to a kindergarten level. All you have done is brought yourself down to SGDs level and we all know what level he is on.

Nrsingha d, very few people in this forum respond to you because you really have nothing constructive to say, your lasts two posts here bear witness to that fact.

Yes,its not about institution,its the person and principle Sri Guru.

Please read HBV. It is the basic core for all devotees.

According to this previous quote of how to act in devotional service,one is apt to ask who is the superior?Narayanna maharaja or Srila Prabhupada .....?So this will determine according to the Brahma madhva gaudiya line whose siddanta we should keenly follow in my opinion!What is your opinion manasi seva ,who is superior accordingly .....AC Bhaktivedanta swami or Narayanna maharaja?

What the hell are you talking about? What is all this "who is superior?" bullshit? Suddenly out of nowhere comes some jerk named Kalacakra who has the audacity (and stupidity) to insult, offend, blaspheme, criticize and condem His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada --- and following not far behind is idiot number two named ramasiksa das waving his pom poms behind his hero kalacakra. Are you two guys an act of some kind? Ive seen some real morons come and go at this forum but you two guys go right to the head of the line. Do us all a favor and go haunt another house. Dont slither away angry -- just slither away.

> who is superior ?

The question is about whether or not the GBC have correctly represented Narayana Maharajas position, not who is superior.

How can iskcon misrepresent Narayanna maharaja...when he disobeys the intrinsic instructions not to read or quote from ujjvala nilamani,govinda lilamrita and gita govinda.As instructed by Srila Bhaktisiddanta saraswati thakura.He [Srila Bhaktisiddanta] never quoted from a sahajaism or caste brahmana sources like Narayanna maharaja does....
Please offer some sastric evidence that this is the authorised devotional process to openly disobey the guru of your own guru?
Such behaviour simply means Iskcon is intent on allowing us to naturally formulate our own informed veiw....he[NARAYANNA MAHARAJA] is a preacher but not an Archarya in a similar vein to our Srila Prabhupada!
Certainly since even Sridhar swamis team are openly asking us not to allow [narayanna maharajas team] to be involved in our combined preaching efforts.....it is obvious other gaudiya lines are of the same opinion.That they have been so relaxed shows that it will be a permanent feature to allow a gradual removal of his influence.

Srila Prabhupada repeatedly warned about prematurely hearing descriptions of madhurya-lila, the intimate pastimes Krsna enjoys with the gopis. Srila Narayana Maharaja speaks openly about these topics.Several other pionts to allow us to make an informed appreciation.....#

Srila Narayana Maharaja says that Srila Prabhupada wanted him to guide and lead the members of ISKCON. Srila Prabhupada always said his books and his system of a collective governing body (GBC) should guide his society. ...The Question may be asked how can Narayanna maharaja lead iskcon if he has never surrendered to Srila Prabhupadas ISKCON society?He has repeatedly re-initiated Prabhupadas foolish devotees like Jadurani ....in a very un-Vaisnava corporate like take over..... mood!However while giving siksa to several indian gentlemen recently i asked does this aggressive behaviour of Narayanna maharaja happen often in indian temples and mathas?They all burst out laughing because they said it happens all the time when you have two indians together,how wonderful i thought we are excepted within the culture....they even cheat us now!What a compliment by

> he disobeys the intrinsic instructions not to read or quote from ujjvala nilamani,govinda lilamrita and gita govinda.As instructed by Srila Bhaktisiddanta saraswati thakura.He [Srila Bhaktisiddanta] never quoted from a sahajaism or caste brahmana sources

Hope you dont consider these works to be of sahajiya or caste brahmana nature...

The discussion is completely off. It looks like a guru mud bath fight.

>How can iskcon misrepresent Narayanna maharaja...when he disobeys the intrinsic instructions not to read or quote from ujjvala nilamani,govinda lilamrita and gita govinda.As instructed by Srila Bhaktisiddanta saraswati thakura.He [Srila Bhaktisiddanta] never quoted from a sahajaism or caste brahmana sources like Narayanna maharaja does....

so ujjvala nilamani,govinda lilamrita and gita govinda are sahajiya and caste brahmana sources because narayana maharaja reads them and quotes from them. Your ISKCON scholars are really great who teach you this. And great is your guru and founder acharya who teaches you that.

http://radha.tribe.net/thread/17f87341-4f96-492c-be77-9dc76f968e59...this is an article written by Narayanna maharaja....its source is from the Ujjvalla-nilamani.Such preaching is being openly distibuted by his followers in open public forums and to new devotees ....as can be witnessed if you follow the website above!These are not sahaja literatures......The govinda lilamrita,ujjvalla nilamani and the gita-govinda.
Which SRILA Bhaktisiddanta Saraswati thakura instructed his direct disciples not to read these three literatures...or become familiar with these!The other texts were the Gita-GOVINDA and the Govinda-lilamrita.Since he was aware of the subtle tendencys to veiw mundane sex-life in a perverted manner....even within his own followers,he instructed all his followers to steer clear of such literatures!Narayanna mahartaja took siksa from caste brahmanas and sahaja gurus in the early 1990s which i will supply soon!

ramasiksa das is a banned user sri govinda das and he is off the wall.

Yesterday i was Former prominent follower of Narayana Maharaja:
"The Vilap Kusumanjali lectures Narayana Maharaja gave during 1991-1993 were more or less based on the commentaries of Sri Ananda Gopal Gosvami and Sri Ananta Dasa Babaji. Particularly some of the asta-kaliya-lilas related by the former were of his own realization. In terms of the Gaudiya Math, the former would be classified as a caste Gosvamin and the latter as a sahajiya Babaji. Nevertheless Narayana Maharaja plagiarized their works and let people believe he expressed his own realizations. And moreover, now he boycotts the very same persons, Ananta das Babas, works directly on his lectures. The translator and publisher of Ananta das Babas works in English, Advaitadas, is a grand-disciple of Ananda Gopal Gosvamin. For all documents I have seen, Narayana Maharaja has not directly criticized Ananda Gopal Gosvamin, but he would certainly not be accepted by the orthodox followers of the Gaudiya Math.

ramasiksa das is actually Sri Govinda Das, its such an easy one to work out, hes banned so just ignore his foolish comments. SGD is completely disturbed by the idea that anyone could be Krishna Conscious outside of Iskcon.

--------------------------------------------------
From: "Secretary (of the) EC (Executive Committee of the GBC)"
Sent: Tuesday, April 13, 2010 4:46 AM
To: "Deena (das) (Vrindavan - IN)"
Subject: The Last Converstaion

> Dear Deenanath Prabhu,
>
> Please accept my humble obeisances. All glories to Srila Prabhupada.
>
> You asked: "Did the GBC approach Narayan Maharaja for clarification on
> his position or provide him an opportunity to comment on the paper
> prior to its publication? If not, is there a reason the GBC chose not
> to?"
>
> Clarification is required when the picture is not clear. Narayan
> Maharaja has been delivering his view of this event for decades,
> gradually adding more embellishments but consistent in his basic
> theme. There is no ambiguity about what he believes or what he has
> been saying.
>
> Additionally, the GBC sent a delegation to meet with Narayan Maharaja
> at Govardhan in October of 2009. That gesture was a humble and honest
> attempt to build a mutually-respectful relationship. Sadly, Narayan
> Maharaja and his followers chose to grossly misrepresent and misreport
> that event. Thus, the GBC saw no good coming from repeating this kind
> of effort again.
>
> Lastly, as for the names of the authors of the paper, it is my
> regrettable duty to report that in the past some followers of Narayan
> Maharaja have responded to devotees presenting views different from
> theirs by launching waves of hate mail and harassment. Therefore, to
> protect the authors from a repeat of this type of abuse, the paper
> directs inquiries to the GBC Executive Committee Secretary.
>
> Hare Krsna,
>
> Your servant,
>
> Radha Sundari devi dasi

Thank you deena ,i appreciate your efforts!

So, deena prabhu, you seem rational and objective in your approach to this
issue. Therefore i would like to ask what is your opinion on their (gbc) reply.

>Srila Bhaktivedanta Svami Maharaja told me in the last days You should help my disciples. They
are like monkeys, I could not train them so much. So always try to help them. I said to him: Your
order is on my head, I will carry it for the rest of my life. I had served him so much that he was
pleased to give this service to me. You know he said: You should do my samadhi, with Vedic
mantra. I dont want that they should touch my body. He told me so many things which were
recorded on cassette which was destroyed.
Lecture in Melbourne on January 20, 1999. Quoted in Sridam Sakha Dasa, '93Srila
Bhaktivedanta Narayana Maharaja Visits Melbourne.'94 VNN: April 22, 1999.

Here H.H.Narayana Maharaja is claiming that everything (all the claims which he makes) was on cassette which was destroyed. Whereas GBC paper is based on a conversation which is not the basis of NMs claims.

There are many Ritviks also who claim that many cassettes were destroyed where Srila Prabhupada instructed Ritvik system of initiations. And Bhaktivedanta Archives is not ready to release all of the recordings in its original form. According to the Bhaktivedanta Archives, there are more than 500 unreleased recordings of His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada, the Founder-Acarya of the International Society for Krishna Consciousness.

This naturally creates a doubt in the mind what is there which Archives is hiding? It seems that we will never come to know what happened during those last months of 1977. If the evidence is already destroyed, the truth will remain a mystery and looks like well never come to know the real truth what Srila Prabhupada exactly wanted.

dweller, youve missed the explanation from Archives:

http://www.dandavats.com/?p=8170
http://www.dandavats.com/?p=8196
http://www.dandavats.com/?p=8262

Narayana Maharaja Confidential Secrets of Bhajana, page 22:
"Every-thing is there, but dont think that we can realize all this by chanting Krishna-nama alone. We must chant nama-mantra (gayatri) as well, if we want full understanding and realization of what is in the

These simple quotes show that narayanna maharaja is deviating from the devotional philosophy accepted byA C Bhaktivedanta swami PRABHUPADA,Srila Bhaktisiddanta swami Prabhupada and Srila Sridhar swami.....So how can the GBC be wrong when Narayanna maharaja is more intelligent than the previous Archaryas....... and is simply willing to change the philosophy according to his own whims.Such lack of devotional chastity shows his faults .....for all to see!

A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada Room Conversation with Sanskrit Professor - August 13, 1973, Paris:
"Chanting Hare Krishna maha-mantra. Then, as he practices, becomes more purified, then second initiation. Gayatri. Gayatri-mantra. But the first initiation, according to Jiva Gosvami, that is sufficient. Chanting Hare Krishna mantra, that is sufficient. But still, to purify them more, the second initiation, Gayatri, is given."

Srila Sridhar Maharaj (Gaudiya Math) Sri Guru and His Grace:
"We accept the mantra only to help the nama-bhajan, the worship of the holy name. Otherwise it may not be necessary at all. It has been judged in such a way. The name alone can do everything for a person. It is full and complete. The (gayatri) mantra helps us to do away with the aparadhas, offenses, and the abhasa, or hazy conception. The (gayatri) mantra comes to help us only so far."

Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura, Prabhupader Patravali, Chapter 1:
"There is no point in making a separate effort to artificially remember the Lords form, qualities and pastimes. The Lord and His name are one and the same. This will be understood clearly when the coverings in our hearts are removed. By chanting without offenses you will personally realize that all perfections come from the Holy Name."

ISKCON GBC at last has come out with a transcript of Srila Prabhupada'92s last conversation with Narayan Maharaja on October 8, 1977, complete with the Bengali text and English translation, and has published an analysis. Here'92s an excerpt:

Having examined Narayana Maharaja'92s presentation of what Srila Prabhupada instructed him, and having compared it carefully with the record of the events'97recorded on tape and in the testimonies of participants'97we have no choice but to conclude that the record does not support Narayana Maharaja'92s version of events. His recollections make it seem that he was singled out for special, exclusive and final instructions. Yet he has misrepresented those instructions.

The most prominent of these fabulations is the depiction of death-bed professions by Prabhupada that (1) he had failed to teach his own disciples adequately; that (2) the reason for his failure was the debased and degraded nature of his disciples; that (3) Prabhupada consequently appointed Narayana Maharaja himself to complete the job; and that (4), given the unfitness of his own disciples, Prabhupada wanted Narayana Maharaja instead to put him in samadhi.

All these assertions are without support of fact. Indeed, we should note that on the occasion of their last conversation, Narayana Maharaja himself assured Srila Prabhupada:

'93All of your life'92s duties are complete; you have fulfilled everything in your lifetime'85. Yes, you have done everything. Nothing is left unfinished.'94

And he praised Prabhupada'92s disciples to his face:

'93Please give up all worries in this regard. They are qualified and they know your desires.'94

That was then. Now, however, Narayana Maharaja asserts that Prabhupada told him
things like:

'93I could not train them fully; they are like monkeys.'94

'93Due to their lack of qualification I did not have time to teach them all tattva and siddhanta.'94

'93I do not want they should touch my body.'94

In a short exchange on October 8th, Srila Prabhupada offers Narayana Maharaja an instruction. At one point, Prabhupada quotes Mahaprabhu'92s statement '93Yei bhaje sei bado, abhakta hina chara'94'97that one who is a devotee is exalted, while anyone not a devotee is base. And then this exchange takes place:

Srila Prabhupada: Please do not despise them.
Narayana Maharaja: No, no.
Srila Prabhupada: They'85
Narayana Maharaja: They are the best. If one has undeviating devotion to Lord Hari, then, even if he has any faults, '93api chet su-duracharo bhajate mam ananya-bhak/ sadhur eva sa mantavyah samyag vyavasito hi sah.'94 This is the principle'85

Here Prabhupada, having quoted Mahaprabhu'92s statement that any devotee is to be regarded as exalted, asks Narayana Maharaja not to hold '93them'94 in contempt. Narayana Maharaja understands at once that Prabhupada is referring to his own disciples, and he replies, '93No, no, they are the best'94 and quotes Bhagavad-gita 9.30.

Yet Srila Prabhupada, with characteristically acute discernment, saw the need to put Narayana Maharaja on notice. His warning turned out to be extremely prescient. In time, Narayana Maharaja would not only evince contempt for Prabhupada'92s disciples, but even go so far as to put words into Srila Prabhupada'92s mouth like '93they are like monkeys,'94 and '93I don'92t want they should touch my body.'94

It gives us great distress that Narayana Maharaja, who has spoken so much of love and affection for Prabhupada, now so markedly misrepresents him. Clearly, the GBC would be disloyal to Srila Prabhupada himself were we to accept Narayana Maharaja'92s assertions about his position in relation to Prabhupada'92s disciples and ISKCON. We must reject those assertions. We do so because of our fidelity to Srila Prabhupada, his teachings, and the legacy he entrusted to us.

This transcript (pdf download link for entire transcript, 400Kb) should settle the '93Narayan matter'94 once and for all. I happened to be present for these conversations. Although I do not understand Bengali, I did understand the gist of Srila Prabhupada'92s speaking with Narayan. He wanted that the details of the samadhi ceremony be followed, and suggested that Narayan could be consulted for that. It was nothing more than this. The conversation bears this out.

ISKCON has published the following in summary:

New GBC Paper Clarifies Relationship Between Srila Prabhupada and Narayana Maharaja April 1, 2010
ISKCON'92s Governing Body Commission has just released a forty-page document that clarifies the relationship between Srila Prabhupada'97ISKCON'92s founder'97and His Holiness Narayana Maharaja, a prominent leader of the Vaishnava group the Gaudiya Math.

SKCON has published the following in summary:

New GBC Paper Clarifies Relationship Between Srila Prabhupada and Narayana Maharaja April 1, 2010
ISKCON'92s Governing Body Commission has just released a forty-page document that clarifies the relationship between Srila Prabhupada'97ISKCON'92s founder'97and His Holiness Narayana Maharaja, a prominent leader of the Vaishnava group the Gaudiya Math.

The document follows up a meeting between Narayana Maharaja and several senior members of the GBC back in October 2009 at the sacred town of Govardhana, India.

During the meeting, ISKCON leaders apologized to Narayana Maharaja for their failure to communicate with him in a proper and timely manner in 1995, regarding policies they had just established concerning members of ISKCON taking instruction from other gurus outside of their society.

While the GBC desires to show all courtesy to Narayana Maharaja and his followers, however, it remains convinced that that Narayana Maharaja persistently misrepresents Srila Prabhupada by claiming that the ISKCON founder entrusted him with a unique, ongoing role in the spiritual leadership of ISKCON.

The just-released document presents the GBC'92s considered response to this claim. It includes a cover letter explaining what is to follow, a transcript of a conversation between Srila Prabhupada and Narayana Maharaja from October 1977, and finally a paper by the GBC entitled '93The Last Conversation.'94

Please click HERE to download the document to your desktop.

Audio of Last Conversation with NM and SP

Full Document on http://hansadutta.com/KRSNA_WORLD/2010/04/03/evidence-contradicts-narayan-maharajas-claim/......clearly shows Narayanna maharajas cheating propencity.......His ability to embellish for his own Profit Adoration and Distinction........These used to be called material desire....or even Sutle sex life back in my days as a brahmacari ! Definitely not the behaviour of an uttama adhikari....possibly bhakta bob though!

Go to home page on above website of hansaduta das.....krishna world! Posted by Hansadutta das on April 3, 2010
Evidence contradicts Narayan Maharaja'92s claim....

Have the admins gone to sleep at this forum or what? Sri Govinda Das is now masquerading as ramasiksa das and he is at his same old tricks of spamming the forums with his nonsense.

Since he has managed to come back into this forum it has seriously eroded the maturity and sensitivity one would expect from an online forum of devotees.

Can the admin please ban this alternate account of his like they banned his other alternate accounts and re-instate the peace and intelligence to these forums.

Ever have one of those punching clowns when you were a kid? Every time you knocked it down it came popping back up. Does that sound like another type of clown that seems to keep reappearing here? The sad thing is that aside from trying to start new accounts under different names (usually they are three part names with underscores between them) --- I really believe he also suffers from multi personality disorder.

please do not respond to ramasiksha das aka sri_govinda etc etc
we are going to delete all his posts and ban his ip

kalachakra is also Supana and Vikranta
ip banned
now we have implemented an easy ip check and banning system
sorry for the inconveniences

Thank you, Admin Prabhu. Despite the inflammatory and disconcerting things that these (now banned) people write, I should learn to control my reactions. It just angers me so much when someone misrepresents and distorts Srila Prabhupadas teachings and message and in the name of Sri Sri Guru and Gauranga spread hatred, spout nonsense and spit poison. I guess Im like a little kid who is ready to fight anyone who says something bad about my father. Thanks for your tolerance and patience with me. I promise not to fly off the handle in the future if and when any of these folks find a way around their banned status.

> So, deena prabhu, you seem rational and objective in your approach to this issue. Therefore i would like to ask what is your opinion on their (gbc) reply.

I dont really have an opinion at this stage. Some of the things they mention I havent heard anything about previously, i.e attacks on authors, and Narayana Maharaja misreprenting the GBC meeting.

Otherwise, I asked a question and they responded giving their justifcation for their action. Their response seems consistent with their overall position.

> Nrsinga d...Do u think NM would even comment on such?

Hed probably have one his representatives reply, much like the EC Secretary responded on behalf of the GBC Executive Committee. But even so, that shouldnt discourage one from asking. At least wed have a clear conscience that we had done everything reasonably in our power to get both sides of the story, no?

rasa108, have you written to Maharaja? I kept my side of the bargain.

From Damodara Swami:
Unfortunately, one afflicted
with jaundice sees everything as yellow, in the same one afflicted with misconception sees contradictions everywhere.

Actually, I have read the document several times and see no contradictions whatsoever between what was said, and what is claimed to be said by
Srila Narayana Maharaja.

I dont want to make this article so long, so I will just stick to the main points;

The essence of the claims by the GBC is the following, "The most prominent of these "fabulations" is the depiction of death-bed
professions by Prabhupada that (1) he had failed to teach his own disciples adequately;

that (2) the reason for his failure was the debased and degraded
nature of his disciples; that (3) Prabhupada consequently appointed Narayana Maharaja himself to complete the job; and that (4), given the
unfitness of his own disciples, Prabhupada wanted Narayana Maharaja instead to put him in Samadhi."

(1) The first point raised by them is "he had failed to teach his own disciples adequately" This is an obvious fact given the sad past of
the leaders of the ISKCON society. Considering at the time of Srila Prabhupada departure, the leaders included such perfectly trained disciples such as;

Bhavananda, Jaya-Tirtha, Brahmananda, Garga-muni, Bhagav'e4n, Harikesh, Surabhi Swami, Hari-sauri (Prabhupada Kripa Goswami), Rameswara, Drstadhumana, Adi-kesava, Sudama, Kirtananda, Hamsadutta.....need I go on. Had any of Prabhupadas disciples been trained up to the level of pure devotion? Even upon the attainment of bh'e4va one should remain under the guidance and protection of s'e4dhu-sanga, or one will experience difficulties in spiritual life, as is shown by the past-time of the fall down of Bharat Maharaja in the fifth canto of the Srimad Bhagavatam.

Unfortunately, the GBC have given an incorrect slant to their translation of Prabhupadas words of yatata pari shiksa diyechi, karche ora which
should actually be translated as I have trained them as much as I could.

Actually as a pure devotee, Srila Prabhupada has unlimited potency to give perfect training, but unfortunately the disciple can only catch the mercy of the guru according to their surrender, and as we see from the histories of the ex-leaders of the GBC, this surrender was not very substantial. Why this is so is explained by Srila Prabhupada himself "because they are from mleccha and yavana backgrounds, I tried my best to train them." Thus the point that Prabhupada is trying to make is that he could not train them up to the proper standard of pure devotion. I think that there are very few disciples of Srila Prabhupada who can raise their hands and claim to have been perfectly trained in pure devotion.

(admin edited line breaks, next time will just delete :)

[quote][cite] ccd:[/cite]Please read HBV. It is the basic core for all devotees.[/quote]

One who chants suddha-krsna-nama

even once is indeed a Vaisnava
& Diksa (initiation) is unnecessary in terms of
the existential reality (tattva) of sri n'e4ma

At this point, one more thing needs to be considered. Becoming a suddha Vaisnava does not depend on the process of taking diksa (ceremonial initiation). Diksa is the process whereby a person receives a mantra for the worship of Sri Hari'92s deity form, and thus comes at least to the stage of vaisnava-praya.

'a0

In terms of the existential reality of the holy name (nama-tattva), such diksa is unnecessary. As Sriman Mahaprabhu has said:

'a0

prabhu kahe,'97'93yanra mukhe suni eka-bara

krsna-nama, sei pujya,'97srestha sabakara'94

'a0

Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu answered, '93He from whose mouth krsna-nama is heard even once is worshipful and is the best among human beings.'94

eka krsna-name kare sarva-papa ksaya

nava-vidha bhakti purna nama haite haya

'a0

Even uttering Krsna'92s name a single time destroys all of one'92s sins. The nine-fold process of devotional service (navadha-bhakti) attains completeness only through nama.

diksa-purascarya-vidhi apeksa na kare

jihva-sparse a-candala sabare uddhare

One is not required to undergo the process of receiving diksa or any preparatory regulative rites in order to chant krsna-nama. Simply by coming in contact with the tongue, krsna-nama delivers everyone, including even the most degraded class of men.

anusanga-phale kare samsarera ksaya

citta akarsiya karaya krsne premodaya

Sri Caitanya-caritamrta, Madhya-lila (15.106'96109)

'a0

As a secondary result of chanting krsna-nama, one'92s material entanglement is terminated. The primary result is that the mind and heart of the chanter become uncontrollably drawn to Krsna and finally krsna-prema awakens in his heart.

'a0

ataeva yanra mukhe eka krsna-nama

sei ta'92 vaisnava, kariha tanhara sammana

Sri Caitanya-caritamrta, Madhya-lila (15.111)

'a0

One who even chants Krsna'92s name a single time is described as a Vaisnava; therefore you should show him utmost respect.

'a0

The Difference Between Sri Nama and Namabhasa
& Those who Chant Namabhasa are not Vaisnavas

The difference between nama and namabhasa is not the topic of our present deliberation. This shall be discussed specifically at another time. Herein, this much can be said: when krsna-nama is chanted with sastriya-sraddha (faith in scripture), that is, with unalloyed surrender, then it is nama. When nama is chanted with desires unrelated to making Krsna happy (anyabhilasita), or when it is eclipsed by jnana (dry, impersonal knowledge), karma (reward seeking action), vairagya (renunciation born of aversion) and so forth, it is namabhasa.

'a0

Although the chanting of namabhasa can award any result, even up to emancipation from the material energy (mukti), the Vaisnava only chants suddha-nama and is never inclined to chant any form of namabhasa.

'a0

When nama is chanted by one who has knowledge of His actual svarupa, who understands that nama and nami (the name and the named) are non-different, and who has realized that nama only makes His appearance upon the pure transcendental senses of the jiva, only then is it nama.

'a0

When that nama appears on someone'92s tongue, even once, he becomes a Vaisnava. By the time nama appears, all of one'92s fructified (prarabdha) and unfructified (aprarabdha) sins are destroyed. And along with the awakening of such nama comes love of Godhead.

Interesting point book prabhu.
Ysvt. [quote][cite] borokrsnadasa:[/cite]From Damodara Swami:
Unfortunately, one afflicted
with jaundice sees everything as yellow, in the same one afflicted with misconception sees contradictions everywhere.

Actually, I have read the document several times and see no contradictions whatsoever between what was said, and what is claimed to be said by
Srila Narayana Maharaja.

I dont want to make this article so long, so I will just stick to the main points;

The essence of the claims by the GBC is the following, "The most prominent of these "fabulations" is the depiction of death-bed
professions by Prabhupada that (1) he had failed to teach his own disciples adequately;

that (2) the reason for his failure was the debased and degraded
nature of his disciples; that (3) Prabhupada consequently appointed Narayana Maharaja himself to complete the job; and that (4), given the
unfitness of his own disciples, Prabhupada wanted Narayana Maharaja instead to put him in Samadhi."

(1) The first point raised by them is "he had failed to teach his own disciples adequately" This is an obvious fact given the sad past of
the leaders of the ISKCON society. Considering at the time of Srila Prabhupada departure, the leaders included such perfectly trained disciples such as;

Bhavananda, Jaya-Tirtha, Brahmananda, Garga-muni, Bhagav'e4n, Harikesh, Surabhi Swami, Hari-sauri (Prabhupada Kripa Goswami), Rameswara, Drstadhumana, Adi-kesava, Sudama, Kirtananda, Hamsadutta.....need I go on. Had any of Prabhupadas disciples been trained up to the level of pure devotion? Even upon the attainment of bh'e4va one should remain under the guidance and protection of s'e4dhu-sanga, or one will experience difficulties in spiritual life, as is shown by the past-time of the fall down of Bharat Maharaja in the fifth canto of the Srimad Bhagavatam.

Unfortunately, the GBC have given an incorrect slant to their translation of Prabhupadas words of yatata pari shiksa diyechi, karche ora which
should actually be translated as I have trained them as much as I could.

Actually as a pure devotee, Srila Prabhupada has unlimited potency to give perfect training, but unfortunately the disciple can only catch the mercy of the guru according to their surrender, and as we see from the histories of the ex-leaders of the GBC, this surrender was not very substantial. Why this is so is explained by Srila Prabhupada himself "because they are from mleccha and yavana backgrounds, I tried my best to train them." Thus the point that Prabhupada is trying to make is that he could not train them up to the proper standard of pure devotion. I think that there are very few disciples of Srila Prabhupada who can raise their hands and claim to have been perfectly trained in pure devotion.

(admin edited line breaks, next time will just delete :)[/quote]

One should understand the difference of nama-guru and diksa-guru. Nama guru is transcendental, because he gives you the holy name, and this process is not covered by strict regulations of panacaratrica. Pancaratrica diksa guru is again different from a brahama guru who just gives upanayana mantra (gayatri) that is needed in vaidic and pancaratrica worship. The nama is the ultimate reality and is the ultimate reason for liberation, while of course diksa mantras (that follow the gayatri) are also very important, but one can arrive at destination without them, like Haridasa Thakura. I do no expect you to understand this, I suspect that there is an agenda in your posts Nrsimgha. Prabhupada had made a special provision for Nama to be given in a very ceremonial way with yajna, but not always. Interesting that distinction between nama-guru and diksa-guru was at the core of the 1978 meeting of GBC, but is not discussed too often.

Apparently it is not expected that common mass of devotees (Vaisnava-Priya) will realise it. I heard that a conditioned soul can come to relatively deep understanding without realisation. This is the brahmanical stage,characterised by sattva.

BVT writes;

Thee neophyte, or kanistha, Vaisnava '96

arcayam eva haraye

pujam yah sraddhayehate

na tad-bhaktesu canyesu

sa bhaktah prakrtah smrtah

Srimad-Bhagavatam (11.2.47)

'a0

He who engages in worshipping the deity as Bhagavan Sri Hari, with ordinary faith received through some lineage of worldly teachers, but who does not engage in worshipping Sri Hari'92s devotees, is a kanistha Vaisnava, or neophyte Vaisnava. In other words, he is just beginning to enter into understanding the science of bhakti.

'a0

The specific difference between worldly, traditional faith and faith based on the revealed scriptures (sastriya-sraddha) is that the former arises from mere conventional, worldly education, whereas in the latter, namely sastriya-sraddha, faith in the Vaisnavas arises from deep conviction in the words of the scriptures and is based on the evidence presented therein. It is only with the advent of sastriya-sraddha that the jiva becomes a madhyama Vaisnava, or intermediate Vaisnava.

'a0

Until sastriya-sraddha has arisen, the obligation of a sadhaka (a devotee in the stage of practice) to perform karma does not wane. In this regard, Sriman Mahaprabhu has said:

suddha-vaisnava nahe, kintu vaisnavera praya

'a0

Such persons are not pure Vaisnavas, but they resemble Vaisnavas.

sri_amrita_dasi>>or is there another veiw which i have over looked?Please explain this to me...especially manasi seva prabhu....

Hi Sri Govinda Das aka sri_amrita_dasi

You are the only one in this forum that called for the death of Vaisnavas, that is reason enough for why they banned you.

Goodbye Sri Govinda Das...aka sri_amrita_dasi

I quickly re-read the quote of sri_govinda_das......he comments that ritvics are death to the sampradaya advocates....Manasi- seva prabhu has succumbed to the narayanna maharaja disease,it appears he also is disloyal to the true siddanta,while parading as[ NARAYANNA MAHARAJA] does as an supposed uttama.....but simply just an upwardly mobile .....motivated guru!...sadly for us like so many other ordinary jnanis.......hare krishna

Bhagavat Maharaj who was there during SP`s last days has written an interesting rebuttal to the gbc paper.It seems like the gbc is telling porkies again.

yes Sripad Bhagavat Maharaja has written a lovely piece.Honestly Sri Caitanya Tree has many branches to minimize
any of them especially by letting someone else do the research for you throws sand in ones eyes.Cutting and pasting
and all out bluffing can fool some people sometimes but cant fool all the people all the time.My humble suggestion is
that one reads Srila Prabhupadas books closely also without bias and anti sentiment read Srila Narayana Maharajas
books or any other previous Acaryas books see if and how they illuminate one another or not.Ive seen disciples of all gurus acting badly,especially when it comes to vaishnava ettiquette.So start like this let the truth come out and let
the blind lead the blind into a ditch while the rest of the vaishnava world fulfills the mission of Sri Sacinandana and
the rest of our Acaryas

In the last days Srila Prabhupada ordered us...his personal servants, to manage his society as we had been managing it and he made the GBC body as the ultimate governing authority. This is history that none can dispute.

Neither did narayanna maharaja surrender to iskcon,as even srila Prabhupada repeatedly did in his correspondence and personal mood.Nor did he take re-initiation from Srila Prabhupada............. as narayanna maharaja is openly preaching and is suggesting ISKCON devotees should do. Even if they have a qualified guru!

Which begs one to ask is this not the behaviour of an apa-sampradaya or possible sahajiya lines behaviour?Is this re-initiation policy of narayanna maharaja vaisnava behaviour?According to Srila Prabhupada .... it is not!

Narayana maharaja has openly admitted he is gaudiya matha, nor is he ready to accept the unique mood and order to serve iskcon and the GBC,.but as Srila Prabhupada'92s loyal followers we are duty bound to accept this order on our heads and to execute it as our life and soul.

Srila Prabhupada and his sincere followers are intune ,we share the same mood of Srila PRABHUPADA who foresaw that his books would be the basis for spreading this mission for the next 10,000 years. In all our Iskcon temples these books are used for all the classes and there is always a push to distribute them.

In Narayana Maharaja'92s society this is not the case. There nobody refers to them or considers them as the most important basis for all spiritual subjects. In Iskcon we do.We are loyal to Srila Prabhupada who is sublimely intune with his guru and his legacy!
Then there is the history. About 10 years ago Narayana Maharaja began preaching that Srila Prabhupada did not give us every thing and if we wanted to go deeper into spiritual life we need to have a '93rasika guru'94, and offered to be that guru.
This partic

In the last days Srila Prabhupada ordered us...his personal servants, to manage his society as we had been managing it and he made the GBC body as the ultimate governing authority. This is history that none can dispute.

Neither did narayanna maharaja surrender to iskcon,as even srila Prabhupada repeatedly did in his correspondence and personal mood.Nor did he take re-initiation from Srila Prabhupada............. as narayanna maharaja is openly preaching and is suggesting ISKCON devotees should do. Even if they have a qualified guru!

Which begs one to ask, is this not the behaviour of an apa-sampradaya or possible sahajiya lines tendency?Is this re-initiation policy of narayanna maharaja vaisnava behaviour?According to Srila Prabhupada .... it is not!

Narayana maharaja has openly admitted he is gaudiya matha, nor is he ready to accept the unique mood and order to serve iskcon and the GBC,.but as Srila Prabhupada'92s loyal followers we are duty bound to accept this order on our heads and to execute it as our life and soul.

Srila Prabhupada and his sincere followers are intune ,we share the same mood of Srila PRABHUPADA who foresaw that his books would be the basis for spreading this mission for the next 10,000 years. In all our Iskcon temples these books are used for all the classes and there is always a push to distribute them.

In Narayana Maharaja'92s society this is not the case. There nobody refers to them or considers them as the most important basis for all spiritual subjects. In Iskcon we do.We are loyal to Srila Prabhupada who is sublimely intune with his guru and his legacy!
Then there is the history. About 10 years ago Narayana Maharaja began preaching that Srila Prabhupada did not give us every thing and if we wanted to go deeper into spiritual life we need to have a '93rasika guru'94, and offered to be that guru.
This particular mood is not consistent even within the gaudiya matha mood and philosophical siddanta generally.Hence this resulted in a dispute between several gaudiya matha gurus and narayanna maharaja!What followed was that he became labeled as a sahajiya,and openly attacked on several occasions! Especially by the followers of BR Shridhar swami! Which is very signifigant because his matha is hardly an aggressive preaching team who would seek to inflame or drag others reputations into degradation lightly!
The GBC rejected this rasika claim, that we were infact following some lesser understandings, and by numerous quotations from Srila Prabhupada'92s books and lectures, established that our rasa would be revealed to us when we were qualified to understand it by our sincere service to Srila Prabhupada and his mission. Therefore the GBC ordered our members not to associate with narayanna maharaja!ular mood is not consistent even within the gaudiya matha mood and philosophical siddanta generally.Hence this resulted in a dispute between several gaudiya matha gurus and narayanna maharaja!

What followed was that he became labeled as a sahajiya,and openly attacked on several occasions! Especially by the followers of BR Shridhar swami! Which is very signifigant because his matha is hardly an aggressive preaching team who would seek to inflame or drag others reputations into degradation lightly!
The GBC rejected this rasika claim, that we were infact following some lesser understandings, and by numerous quotations from Srila Prabhupada'92s books and lectures, established that our rasa would be revealed to us when we were qualified to understand it by our sincere service to Srila Prabhupada and his mission. Therefore the GBC ordered our members not to associate with narayanna maharaj

A learned fool is more foolish than an ignorant fool.

Moliere.

[quote][cite] Nrsingha d:[/cite]A learned fool is more foolish than an ignorant fool.

Moliere.[/quote]

We counted 7 quotes in a row so far. There are plenty of quotes sites on the internet. Please refrain.

[quote][cite] admin:[/cite][quote][cite] Nrsingha d:[/cite]A learned fool is more foolish than an ignorant fool.

Moliere.[/quote]

We counted 7 quotes in a row so far. There are plenty of quotes sites on the internet. Please refrain.[/quote]

Why,did some of the quotes hit a nerve with u personally prabhu? Just curious!
Ysvt.
HK!

You hit a nerve of others by your spamming enough.

:)

In conclusion, one cannot argue with an infectious disease, the only sensible policy is quarantine. Srila Sridhar Maharaja used to say, "They may do. Let them dance with their foolish tendency."

Finally, after many years of tolerance to the extreme, this gentleman and his entourage were unceremoniously ousted from the hallowed soil of Sri Chaitanya Saraswat Math in Nabadwip Dham. What more needs to be said? Those in the line of Srila Guru Maharaja and in good standing with Srila Govinda Maharaja and Sri Chaitanya Saraswat Math avoid him and his followers like the plague.

Srila Govinda Maharaja and Srila Guru Maharaja would not waste their time with such an upstart. I am an insignificant, fallen jiva but praying for their mercy and the mercy of the Prabhupadas, as well as the special blessings of Srila Jiva Goswami Prabhu, I have responded only to defend their honor.

Ratha Yatra Day '97 2006.....This extreme quote from the followers of sridhar swami was very intense to say the least..Seems as though Sridhar swami and his followers have failed to see narayanna maharaja as a vaishnava?What seems to be the problem ...at least externally he might be a devotee of sorts...a plague though is this not a bit extreme prabhus?

[quote][cite] mano54:[/cite]These books have been mentioned by our Acaryas so it is natural curious persons will develop an interest in reading them.
At this time with so much information available via the Internet etc,the Gaudiya Vaisnava literatures could/are being made accessible by unscrupulous persons.
The Acarya teaches according to time,place and circumstance so Srila Narayana Maharaj has very kindly commented on these books to render them harmless but beautiful to ineligible fools and deep and illuminating for the advanced Vaisnavas.[/quote]

[p] Thanks mano54, at last someone who seeks to find something positive to say rather than something negative. I agree 100% the times have changed, we either get commentary on these subjects by foolish commentators (which is happening) or we get commentary by authorised Vaisnavas.

We have to follow in the footsteps of Lord Chaitanya Mahaprabhu,executing our mission peacefully,or,if necessary kicking the heads of such protesters.Chaitanya charatamrita adi lila17.218...
To understand his special preaching flavour,his unique utilisation of yukta-vairagya,one needs to appreciate and remain fixed in the spirit of Srila Prabhupadas teachings,one must be loyal and submissive to the particular flavour and mood of our param guru!Not some sahajiya imitationist like narayanna maharaja....manasi seva.

During the time of Bhaktivinoda Thakur, Srila Bhaktisiddanta saraswati takura, who was entrusted by
Bhaktivinoda Thakur to print many Gaudiya Vaishnava books which were not
in print, he wanted to print Govinda-lilamrta and Gita-Govinda, and Gopi-Gita, but
Bhaktivinoda Thakur rebuked him saying, "No more than two copies are
required, and you can keep them in the library.
No one in this world can understand these books. Print two: one for yourself that you may be satisfied,
and another one in case anyone in the future can understand," so Srila Prabhupada stopped
the printing. Srila Prabhupada was also printing Gopi Gita, but he stopped doing so on
Bhaktivinoda Thakuras order. Bhaktivinoda Thakur said that it was better that
the rasa sastra be taken out from this world and destroyed rather than be
exposed to those who are not fit to understand it. Great damage has been done
by the misuse of these rasasastras, by exposing them to people not fit to hear...
.From Bhaktisiddanta swamis disciple ..Jotisekhara prabhu..

ISKCONs Prabhupada: Conversation August 16 1976: "My guru maharaja
wanted to publish this Govinda-lilamrta. He asked permission of Bhaktivinoda
Thakur, who told him, "Ill tell you some day," and when SP reminded him, he
said, "Yes, you can print one copy. If you are so much anxious to print it then
print one copy. You will read it and you will see that you have printed it; not for
general distribution.
"Sorry manasi seva prabhu,i admire your stance as a good disciple ,however Narayanna maharaja has systematically strayed from the orthodox path of Srila bhaktivinoda takura and Srila Bhaktisiddanta saraswati takura...and even the very merciful AC Bhaktivedanta swami Prabhupada!As can be observed from the quotes above!....Personally manasi seva how can you,and even narayanna maharaja possible over play a small pastime helping the young inexperienced Bhaktivedanta swami followers to place their guru within his samadhi....as the acceptance that he was infact the sanctioned Archarya for the worldwide society!Such foolish claims engender one to appreciate the conservative mood of the GBC.
However it appears that such sahajiyaism is why our gaudiya archaryas were indeed so against reading of these gopi sastras.Obviously Narayanna maharaja has strayed ....to feel he is more qualified,indeed more intelligent than these previous archaryas.Hence he is simply foolish and condemned to being more intelligent than even his own gurus.....

To Radha Sundari devi dasi & Deenanath, watch the below be cleared up, and any concerns you have regarding the truth.

"Additionally, the GBC sent a delegation to meet with Narayan Maharaja
at Govardhan in October of 2009. That gesture was a humble and honest
attempt to build a mutually-respectful relationship. Sadly, Narayan
Maharaja and his followers chose to grossly misrepresent and misreport
that event. Thus, the GBC saw no good coming from repeating this kind
of effort again." > Radha Sundari devi dasi

Dandavat pranams,
All glories to 'c7r'e9 'c7r'e9 Guru and Gaur'e4'ecga .

Dear Vai'f1'ebava devotees of the Lord,
Recently I was sent the latest GBC article attempting to minimize the relationship between 'c7r'e9la Bhaktived'e4nta N'e4r'e4ya'eba Mah'e4r'e4ja, and His 'e7iksa guru 'c7r'e9la Bhaktived'e4nta Swami Mah'e4r'e4ja. Unfortunately, one afflicted with jaundice sees everything as yellow, in the same one afflicted with misconception sees contradictions everywhere.
Actually, I have read the document several times and see no contradictions whatsoever between what was said, and what is claimed to be said by 'c7r'e9la N'e4r'e4ya'eba Mah'e4r'e4ja.
I don'92t want to make this article so long, so I will just stick to the main points;

The essence of the claims by the GBC is the following, '93The most prominent of these fabulations is the depiction of death-bed professions by Prabhup'e4da that (1) he had failed to teach his own disciples adequately; that (2) the reason for his failure was the debased and degraded nature of his disciples; that (3) Prabhup'e4da consequently appointed N'e4r'e4ya'eba Mah'e4r'e4ja himself to complete the job; and that (4), given the unfitness of his own disciples, Prabhup'e4da wanted N'e4r'e4ya'eba Mah'e4r'e4ja instead to put him in samadh'e9.'94

(1) The first point raised by them is '93he had failed to teach his own disciples adequately'94 This is an obvious fact given the sad past of the leaders of the ISKCON society. Considering at the time of 'c7r'e9la Prabhup'e4da departure, the leaders included such perfectly trained disciples such as;

Bhavananda, Jaya-Tirtha, Brahmananda, Garga-muni, Bhagav'e4n, Harikesh, Surabhi Swami, Hari-sauri (Prabhup'e4da Kripa Goswami), Rameswara, Drstadhumana, Adi-kesava, Sudama, Kirtananda, Hamsadutta'85..need I go on. Had any of Prabhup'e4da'92s disciples been trained up to the level of pure devotion? Even upon the attainment of bh'e4va one should remain under the guidance and protection of s'e4dhu-sanga, or one will experience difficulties in spiritual life, as is shown by the past-time of the fall down of Bharat Mah'e4r'e4ja in the fifth canto of the 'c7r'e9mad Bh'e4gavatam. Unfortunately, the GBC have given an incorrect slant to their translation of Prabhup'e4da'92s words of '91yatata pari shiksa diyechi, karche ora'92 which should actually be translated as '91I have trained them as much as I could'92. Actually as a pure devotee, 'c7r'e9la Prabhup'e4da has unlimited potency to give perfect training, but unfortunately the disciple can only catch the mercy of the guru according to their surrender, and as we see from the histories of the ex-leaders of the GBC, this surrender was not very substantial. Why this is so is explained by 'c7r'e9la Prabhup'e4da himself '93because they are from mleccha and yavana backgrounds, I tried my best to train them.'94 Thus the point that Prabhup'e4da is trying to make is that he could not train them up to the proper standard of pure devotion. I think that there are very few disciples of 'c7r'e9la Prabhup'e4da who can raise their hands and claim to have been perfectly trained in pure devotion.

(2) As for the second point that '93reason for this failure was the debased and degraded nature of his disciples'94, the GBC are simply repeating Prabhup'e4da'92s own words verbatim. '93They do not have any hereditary background. All are from mleccha and yavana family background. I have trained them according to my ability. They are also doing their best.'94

The GBC have made great efforts to show that 'c7r'e9la N'e4r'e4ya'eba Mah'e4r'e4ja is misrepresenting Prabhup'e4da because 'c7r'e9la N'e4r'e4ya'eba Mah'e4r'e4ja claimed that Prabhup'e4da said, '93You should help my disciples. They are like monkeys, I could not train them so much.'94 Actually 'c7r'e9la N'e4r'e4ya'eba Mah'e4r'e4ja is being kind by describing them as monkeys, because their Guru Mah'e4r'e4ja has described them as being worse. It is better to be called a monkey rather than a mleccha and yavana. In Prabhup'e4da'92s BBT the glossary gives the translations for mleccha as (uncivilized humans, outside the Vedic system of society, who are generally meat-eaters.), and a yavana is (a class of humans fallen from the Vedic culture; a low-class person, generally a meat-eater; a barbarian.) A monkey is a sub-human, and mlecchas and yavanas are considered as sub-human beings, as quoted by 'c7r'e9la Prabhup'e4da in his 'c7r'e9mad Bh'e4gavatam commentary, '93In the K'e5'f1'eba consciousness movement these monkey disciples, being unable to follow the strict regulative principles, sometimes fall down and try to form societies based on sex. This is proof that such people are descendants of monkeys, as confirmed by Darwin. In this verse it is therefore clearly stated: yath'e4 v'e4nara j'e4te'f9.'94

And'85..'94However, being unable to stick to these principles, these rascals again fall down and take shelter among 'e7'fcdras who are very expert in making arrangements for sex indulgence. Sex is very prominent among animals like monkeys, and such people who are enlivened by sex may be called descendants of monkeys.'94

The reason 'c7r'e9la N'e4r'e4ya'eba Mah'e4r'e4ja is being so kind was also explained by him 15 years ago, and this has been also given by the GBC as an explanation, he says, '93At that time he ('c7r'e9la Prabhup'e4da) spoke in Bengali so that others would not understand. If he were to say that all his disciples were ignorant, that they did not know very much, and that they were imperfect, they may have become upset. For this reason he spoke so many things in Bengali. He told me, "I brought them, but I could not teach them in full." Thus the words of 'c7r'e9la N'e4r'e4ya'eba Mah'e4r'e4ja have prophetically become true, because when the GBC understood that their Gururdeva called them mlecchas and yavanas 30 years ago, they have become upset and wrote a 40 page reply.

(3) ) The GBC has stated that '93Prabhup'e4da consequently appointed N'e4r'e4ya'eba Mah'e4r'e4ja himself to complete the job (of giving them full training). This was also stated in the conversation, where Prabhup'e4da says in the beginning of the conversation, '93Prabhup'e4da and Bhaktivinoda 'd6h'e4kura wanted that we
should preach in Europe and America. Another desire was that everyone
should preach collectively.'94 Is this not a statement that Iskcon should work together with the Gau'f2iya Math? Is this not the desire of 'c7r'e9la Bhakti Siddh'e4nta Sarasvat'e9 'd6h'e4kura and 'c7r'e9la Bhaktivinode 'd6h'e4kura, (thus also a desire of 'c7r'e9la Prabhup'e4da)? Is not 'c7r'e9la N'e4r'e4ya'eba Mah'e4r'e4ja being told that this is the desire of the Guru Paramapar'e4? 'c7r'e9la Prabhup'e4da continues, '93And after I have gone, everyone should all come together . . .'94 Thus Prabhup'e4da is not just instructing 'c7r'e9la N'e4r'e4ya'eba Mah'e4r'e4ja, and the Gau'f2iya Math to work co-operatively with Iskcon, but for Iskcon to work together with the Gau'f2iya Math. Prabhup'e4da explains that we have all the facilities in terms of '93If all work unitedly'97there are big, big temples; there is sufficient place to stay; there is no lack of manpower. If everything happens when I am here, that will be very nice.'94

'c7r'e9la N'e4r'e4ya'eba Mah'e4r'e4ja then tells Prabhup'e4da that Iskcon devotees are sufficiently trained, so as to put Prabhup'e4da out of anxiety, thus he says, '93It is very nice. This is how it should be. You have created something; if they all work together and maintain it. You have trained them. Yet in the future if they become even more united and help, then a wonderful thing will happen in this world.'94 Then 'c7r'e9la Prabhup'e4da explains that actually he hasn'92t been able to train them properly because they are all mlecchas and yavanas, but he tried his best, and they are also trying their best with their insufficient training, Thus he says, '93They do not have any hereditary background. All are from mleccha and yavana family background. I have trained them according to my ability. They are also doing their best.'94

The GBC have made great efforts to show that 'c7r'e9la N'e4r'e4ya'eba Mah'e4r'e4ja is misrepresenting Prabhup'e4da because 'c7r'e9la N'e4r'e4ya'eba Mah'e4r'e4ja claimed that Prabhup'e4da said, '93You should help my disciples. They are like monkeys, I could not train them so much.'94 Actually 'c7r'e9la N'e4r'e4ya'eba Mah'e4r'e4ja is being kind by describing them as monkeys, because their Guru Mah'e4r'e4ja has described them as being worse. It is better to be called a monkey rather than a mleccha and yavana. In Prabhup'e4da'92s BBT the glossary gives the translations for mleccha as (uncivilized humans, outside the Vedic system of society, who are generally meat-eaters.), and a yavana is (a class of humans fallen from the Vedic culture; a low-class person, generally a meat-eater; a barbarian.) A monkey is a sub-human, and mlecchas and yavanas are considered as sub-human beings, as quoted by 'c7r'e9la Prabhup'e4da in his 'c7r'e9mad Bh'e4gavatam commentary, '93In the K'e5'f1'eba consciousness movement these monkey disciples, being unable to follow the strict regulative principles, sometimes fall down and try to form societies based on sex. This is proof that such people are descendants of monkeys, as confirmed by Darwin. In this verse it is therefore clearly stated: yath'e4 v'e4nara j'e4te'f9.'94

And'85..'94However, being unable to stick to these principles, these rascals again fall down and take shelter among 'e7'fcdras who are very expert in making arrangements for sex indulgence. Sex is very prominent among animals like monkeys, and such people who are enlivened by sex may be called descendants of monkeys.'94

The reason 'c7r'e9la N'e4r'e4ya'eba Mah'e4r'e4ja is being so kind was also explained by him 15 years ago, and this has been also given by the GBC as an explanation, he says, '93At that time he ('c7r'e9la Prabhup'e4da) spoke in Bengali so that others would not understand. If he were to say that all his disciples were ignorant, that they did not know very much, and that they were imperfect, they may have become upset. For this reason he spoke so many things in Bengali. He told me, "I brought them, but I could not teach them in full." Thus the words of 'c7r'e9la N'e4r'e4ya'eba Mah'e4r'e4ja have prophetically become true, because when the GBC understood that their Gururdeva called them mlecchas and yavanas 30 years ago, they have become upset and wrote a 40 page reply.

(3) ) The GBC has stated that '93Prabhup'e4da consequently appointed N'e4r'e4ya'eba Mah'e4r'e4ja himself to complete the job (of giving them full training). This was also stated in the conversation, where Prabhup'e4da says in the beginning of the conversation, '93Prabhup'e4da and Bhaktivinoda 'd6h'e4kura wanted that we
should preach in Europe and America. Another desire was that everyone
should preach collectively.'94 Is this not a statement that Iskcon should work together with the Gau'f2iya Math? Is this not the desire of 'c7r'e9la Bhakti Siddh'e4nta Sarasvat'e9 'd6h'e4kura and 'c7r'e9la Bhaktivinode 'd6h'e4kura, (thus also a desire of 'c7r'e9la Prabhup'e4da)? Is not 'c7r'e9la N'e4r'e4ya'eba Mah'e4r'e4ja being told that this is the desire of the Guru Paramapar'e4? 'c7r'e9la Prabhup'e4da continues, '93And after I have gone, everyone should all come together . . .'94 Thus Prabhup'e4da is not just instructing 'c7r'e9la N'e4r'e4ya'eba Mah'e4r'e4ja, and the Gau'f2iya Math to work co-operatively with Iskcon, but for Iskcon to work together with the Gau'f2iya Math. Prabhup'e4da explains that we have all the facilities in terms of '93If all work unitedly'97there are big, big temples; there is sufficient place to stay; there is no lack of manpower. If everything happens when I am here, that will be very nice.'94

'c7r'e9la N'e4r'e4ya'eba Mah'e4r'e4ja then tells Prabhup'e4da that Iskcon devotees are sufficiently trained, so as to put Prabhup'e4da out of anxiety, thus he says, '93It is very nice. This is how it should be. You have created something; if they all work together and maintain it. You have trained them. Yet in the future if they become even more united and help, then a wonderful thing will happen in this world.'94 Then 'c7r'e9la Prabhup'e4da explains that actually he hasn'92t been able to train them properly because they are all mlecchas and yavanas, but he tried his best, and they are also trying their best with their insufficient training, Thus he says, '93They do not have any hereditary background. All are from mleccha and yavana family background. I have trained them according to my ability. They are also doing their best.'94

So the entire flow of the conversation should be looked upon as a whole. One cannot simply pull random statements out of context, and present them to a reader. 'c7r'e9la Prabhup'e4da states that the desires of 'c7r'e9la Bhaktivinode 'd6h'e4kura and 'c7r'e9la Bhaktisiddh'e4nta Sarasvat'e9 'd6h'e4kura are to preach in Europe and America, and if we are all united then wonderful things can be done. He states how he tried to train his disciples as much as he was able, but due to their being mlecchas and yavanas, it was insufficient. Why is he saying this to 'c7r'e9la N'e4r'e4ya'eba Mah'e4r'e4ja at their last meeting? Of course 'c7r'e9la N'e4r'e4ya'eba Mah'e4r'e4ja could understand the mano '91bhista (internal desire) of 'c7r'e9la Prabhup'e4da, which anyone, (unless they are blind) could also see. That is please train My disciples and co-operatively preach around the world, fulfilling My desires, and also the desire of the previous acharyas.

'c7r'e9la Prabhup'e4da always gave the analogy of the blind man and the lame man. The lame man represented India, and the blind man represented the West. India was materially lame, and the West was blind to spiritual knowledge, if they both co-operate then wonderful things can be done. Here the Gau'f2iya Math may be likened to the lame man, and Iskcon is the blind man, our previous 'e4c'e4ryas wanted for them to work co-operatively, and that was the final desire of 'c7r'e9la Prabhup'e4da being expressed here. Perhaps the blind man cannot see this though, but 'c7r'e9la N'e4r'e4ya'eba Mah'e4r'e4ja knew what Prabhup'e4da meant, therefore he replied, '93Whenever they will call me, consult with me, wherever they will ask me to go, I will do according to my ability. However, my qualification is very little. Whatever I can do selflessly, I will do.'94 And '93I consider you to be like my spiritual master.'94

(4) The last disagreement the Iskcon paper had with the direct statements of 'c7r'e9la Prabhup'e4da was stated by them, '93given the unfitness of his own disciples, Prabhup'e4da wanted N'e4r'e4ya'eba Mah'e4r'e4ja instead to put him in samadh'e9.'94 Again, this was also collaborated by the entire conversation. If the disciples like PP Bhakticaru Mah'e4r'e4ja and Bhavananda already knew everything, then why would they have to consult 'c7r'e9la N'e4r'e4ya'eba Mah'e4r'e4ja about the details of the Samadhi ceremony? I quote,

Prabhup'e4da: You have consulted with N'e4r'e4ya'eba Mah'e4r'e4ja?
Tam'e4la K'e5'f1'eba: Yes. This morning Bhakti-caru Sw'e4m'e9, Bhakti-prema Sw'e4m'e9
and 'c7r'e9dhara Sw'e4m'e9 went to see him, and N'e4r'e4ya'eba Mah'e4r'e4ja described the ceremony for the departure of a Vai'f1'ebava, great Vai'f1'ebava soul.

So full training was not given so they had to take advice from a senior Vai'f1'ebava.

Actually the most offensive statement in the entire article was the following jewel of vai'f1'ebava-apar'e4dha, where it states on page 28, '93Thus, it
appears that the idea of N'e4r'e4ya'eba Mah'e4r'e4ja'92s participation in the ceremony originates from N'e4r'e4ya'eba Mah'e4r'e4ja himself, not from 'c7r'e9la Prabhup'e4da.'94 Thus directly suggesting that 'c7r'e9la N'e4r'e4ya'eba Mah'e4r'e4ja went to the Samadhi ceremony for the free feast or something like that. Considering that 'c7r'e9la Prabhup'e4da in the same conversation asks 'c7r'e9la N'e4r'e4ya'eba Mah'e4r'e4ja if he will be there for everything, and that he was the only person who could direct the entire viraha mahotsava, and to say that 'c7r'e9la Mah'e4r'e4ja went there for some self-interest is just disgusting. Also considering that 'c7r'e9la Prabhup'e4da did not give His disciples the gop'e9-bh'e4va mantra at the time of sanny'e4sa, then who will write that mantra on the divine body of the pure devotee at the time of the Samadhi giving ceremony. You can see 'c7r'e9la N'e4r'e4ya'eba Mah'e4r'e4ja writing the mantra on the divine chest of 'c7r'e9la Prabhup'e4da on the video clip, '93The final lesson.'94

Of course the real reason 'c7r'e9la Prabhup'e4da didn'92t want those leaders to touch his body was because they had poisoned him, that is why 'c7r'e9la Prabhup'e4da asked 'c7r'e9la N'e4r'e4ya'eba Mah'e4r'e4ja to give him Samadhi. I heard this from 'c7r'e9la N'e4r'e4ya'eba Mah'e4r'e4ja Himself.

I don'92t want to spend too much time on this. I am glad that the GBC have so much time up their sleeves that they can compose 40 page letters on the subject. It is better that they look towards their own deviations, such as the voting in of 'e4c'e4ryas, voting on the fall of the j'e9va, the zonal 'e4c'e4rya system, the gurukul fiasco etc ad finitum, than trying to cast assertions on the character of an exalted Vai'f1'ebava.

Of course, for those great and fortunate souls who took shelter under 'c7r'e9la Prabhup'e4da, and are fulfilling his desires for them to attain pure devotion by remaining under the guidance of the pure Gau'f2iya Vai'f1'ebavas, then for them we apply the verse from the 'c7r'e9mad Bhagavad G'e9t'e4 (9.30);

api cet su-dur'e4c'e4ro bhajate m'e4m ananya-bh'e4k
s'e4dhur eva sa mantavya'f9 samyag vyavasito hi sa'f9

'93Even if one commits the most abominable action, if he is engaged in devotional service he is to be considered saintly because he is properly situated in his determination.'94

While those who divulge in fault finding and criticism of the Vai'f1'ebavas, they are abominable.

This is the principle,

Wishing them all the best, and praying for their rectification;

A fallen servant of the servant

BV D'e4modara Mah'e4r'e4ja