Pariprashnena — Q&A Archive

Yes. He is bogus.

http://www.harekrsna.org/gbc/black/radanath.htm

http://www.google.com.au/search?hl=en&rls=com.microsoft%3Aen-au&q=radhanath+swami+site%3Aharekrsna.com&meta=&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=&gs_rfai=

If I was that close relative, it may hurt me a little to realize the person I was building faith in was bogus, but down the track I would thank you for it. Considering they are about to embark on a journey for the truth it would help them a whole lot if you gave it to them, sooner than later.

If on the other hand I was that relative and later on my world came crumbling down because I found out the truth that my guru was bogus, that would hurt. But to also find out that you my close relative held back the truth from me, I would start to think I couldnt trust anyone in this world.

Simply provide them with all the information and let them decide, if they still go ahead at least they do so having been warned.

I would tell them to cultivate their relationship with Srila Prabhupada as siksa disciple by studying Prabhupadas books. Eventually -- the sincere student will be sent a diksa guru by the mercy of the Supreme Lord. Its not a mechanical process and there certainly is no rush.

One is prone to judge the individuals nature first,is he a sincere devotee ?After all radhanatha swami is humbly carrying on his personal service to his own guru.Such wonderful spirit to give shelter and instruct neophytes is simply sublime.Now there are literally dozens of sincere devotees carrying on the Srila Prabhupada legacy as initiating gurus inside iskcon !Which is what all genuine followers are meant for eventually.Portnoys advice seems pertinent,but eventually this is a very personal decision....between temple authorities and the devotee and his choice of guru.Obviously you are from left feild when you refer to ritvics as a positive alternative.My siksa guru tamala krishna goswami initiated the letter which several followers have used to deviate a few followers of iskcon .and set up this apa -sampradaya ....anti gaudiya matha society,which they refer to as ritvics.....!However if you want to be cheated....krishna is so willing to arrange to give us any nonsense except pure devotional service so such deviants simply dont bother him ......with their personal failings and spiritual perversions.Hopefully something of what i have said is of some use kes.....hare krishna.

Even witin our gaudiya line,guru problems are evident once one digs deep.....however as the catholics have found ours seem minute and inconsequential compared to their loss of general appreciation as being witnessed by their futile attempts to indeed come clean.....especially about preists failures and sexual deviations.This is after all the prison house .....

Sri Govinda Das. That does not explain the swami sleeping with little girls.

[quote][cite] borokrsnadasa:[/cite]Sri Govinda Das. That does not explain the swami sleeping with little girls.[/quote]

thats quite an accusation to make on a public forum. It is very irresponsible of u to make such accusations like that if it is just based on malicious gossip or something.

Nrsingha d. What are you talking about? So you have no objection to what mung had said and his links? Who is accusing who and about what?

Likewise Mung or anyone. What is the source for ur accusation. At least Mung has put up links to his. Right?

I had a friend who has a son, was aspiring a few years ago. So before allowing son to accept this guru there was a talk: "Are you sure, are you absolutely sure? Do you know you can not change after initiation?" I think there should be some talk like that with everyone. And definitely gurus should not be promoted, advertised or pushed in your face, and so no, you should not recommend a guru, regardless of the status. It is disciples and disciples alone burden to make the choice.

Tell him whats the point in taking formal initiation from Kanistha Guru. Does he want to perform deity worship or something? Having said that he is relatively highly KC IMHO. However,in and of himself he cannot deliver anyone as he is still bound himself. Simple for the simple?
Ysvt.

Read clarification from GBCs:
http://iskcongurus.wordpress.com/links/radhanatha-swami/

Yes so the only question remains now is is why did he leave it out of his autobiography? It would have made a great chapter in how things can go seriously wrong, and what he learnt from the one of the worst series of events that took place in Iskcon.

Just seems hes more interested in showing a pleasant veneer rather then presenting the good the bad and the ugly.

Hare Krishna. All glories to Srila Prabhupada. Please accept my humble obeisances.

There are negative effects on the guru for accepting an unqualified disciple and there are also negative effects on the disciple for taking an unqualified guru. Then, due to those malific effects, when the self-effulgent Acarya manifests again, neither are in a position to take advantage of Him and they lose out. Spend the dark night chanting and waiting for the rising sun, dont accept the glow-fly or lantern as Sun. Guru is to be accepted as good as God. That means we must pray and wait for the One who is as good as God--not accept any unqualified person and make mental adjustments that he is as good as God because we have chosen him. Not that, eventually seeing the low condition of the guru we have chosen, we degrade the position of guru to mean just a teacher. Persons who have done this even consider Srila Prabhupada an ordinary guru who became self-realized by the mercy of His Guru, on the level with other India-born gurus. These attitudes bring about Sri Guru Vaisnava Aparada which is highly counter-productive to our real good.

Even if we accept and later abandon such an unqualified guru, there will still be subtle negative effects. It is something like breaking the tie of marriage with divorce..still there are debts, children, family, possessions, identities (individually, jointly and socially), memories, and other results of karrma accrued jointly.

By following Srila Prabhupadas instructions and reading His unchanged books we will become purified and attract His divine guidance in our lives. By praying and crying for His real representative, we will get the Sri Guru who can give us Sri Krishna. Sriman Mahaprabhus movement is for those who are begging for Sri Krishna, so if a guru is not in possession of Sri Krishna, we had better not get involved with him.

The Real Nature of the Function of Guru

"Individual souls are under the direction of Nityananda. They receive their service of Shri Gaurasundara, i.e., of Krishna, at His hands. Nityananda is not a jiva. He is Divinity. He is the ultimate source of the jiva. The jiva is a potency of Nityananda. No jiva can be the medium of the service of the Absolute to another jiva. The Absolute alone may communicate His service to the separable constituents of Himself. This is the real nature of the function of the guru.'94 Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakur

Those who have accepted bhogus gurus are infected with apasiddhanta. "If a man once takes the bad association of counterfeit Vaisnavas or non-Vaisnavas, he will never follow any beneficial instructions. He will only learn hypocrisy." Babaji Maharaja, Two Beyond Duality

"As a result of an offense to the Holy Name or an offense in worshipping the Deity one will acheive three results: dharma (mundane piety), artha (material opulence), and kama (sense pleasure). These are actually misfortunes for the living entity. Our guru, Lord Nityananda, cheats pseudo-devotees by supplying their material wants but depriving them of love of God." Babaji Maharaja, Two Beyond Duality

[quote][cite] maah!:[/cite]--not accept any unqualified person and make mental adjustments that he is as good as God because we have chosen him.
[/quote]

the crux of it,imho.

Anyone who was married is not perfect (according to the acaryas)... (now what to speak of one who was not married;0)

really wish we could get ur direct association maah or u could point us in the direction of a like minded pure sanga.Never heard anyone speak thistruth the way u do.sincerely revolutionary!
Thank you!

actual marriage is only for the Madhyamas.(according to the acaryas). Internalised and immediate.

Hare Krishna. All glories to Srila Prabhupada. Please accept my humble obeisances.

anandahariji,

you can have the same revolutionary association i have, just pray for it and cry for it in your heart. He is in your heart and He knows Who represents Him externally. He makes the connection. He wants to make the connection, more than we do. Feel yourself helpless and hopeless and trust in Him. He is already reading your heart. i always think of how Lord Caitanya Mahaprabhu and His devotees went with the heavy load to distribute, but found no takers; so rather than carry it back, they just gave it away for free.

He gives it to the simple but not the crooked. "There are three types of crooked persons, dhana-kapati, bala-kapati, and prema-kapati. Dhana-kapatis are those persons who have much wealth, but they never spend it for the propagation of bhagavata-dharma. They never give donations to bhakta-bhagavata, the vaisnavas who are propagating bhagavat-dharma. They are the number one type of kapati, crooked person. They never spend there wealth for the service of Sri Guru, Krsna, or the vaisnavas, but instead they spend so much money in other ways. They are krpana, misers. They cannot understand bhagavata-dharma. They cannot get the mercy of Mahaprabhu. They cannot get prema, even though Mahaprabhu is offering it.

The second type of kapati, crooked , duplicitous person, is the bala-kapati. He has strength, but even though Mahaprabhus tumultuous kirtana is going on, he is not dancing in that kirtana. He has strength, but he doesnt dance, tandava-nrtya, in gaura-kirtana.

The third type of kapati is the prema-kapati. He has not gotten prema, but he develops the abhimana, "Oh, I am a vaisnava. I am a great devotee." These three types of kapatis cannot get Mahaprabhus mercy.They cannot understand bhagavata-dharma-tattva. They cannot get prema unless they give up their kapatya and enviousness and serve sadhu, guru and vaisnava --- niskapata-seva. They should render service without duplicity and get the mercy of Mahaprabhu. Even though Mahaprabhu is living prema indiscriminetly, they cannot get it."

Without the mercy of such vaisnavas no one can understand bhagavata-dharma-tattva. Nirmatsaranam satam vedyam - only the vaisnavas who are nirmatsara, non-envious, can understand bhagavat-dharma-tattva.(S.B.1.1.2) Otherwise no one can understand the Bhagavata. The Bhagavata will never reveal Himself before them. Only those who are nirmatsara, and free from crookedness, kapatya, can understand bhagavat-dharma."

Hare Krishna

"Yes. He is bogus."
...
well, I am quite new to Krishna consciousness (at least in this life not sure of past of course),
but when I found such sites like this on Internet: http://www.harekrsna.org
I had a bad time and wanted to give any up Krishna consciousness. (Ive heard related stories about Harikesha etc from some indians who are even non-vegetarians but also "know this organization, ISKCON, very well")
Well, so when Ive read some criticism from side of non-indians/non-vaishnavas - that I may understand more or less - those people simply get news from different places and put that as warning for those who want to go into organizations like ISKCON - that there are/were many different strange events. So it seems that even falldown of Harikesha from sannyasi to grihastha thus seems not that much problem as that with murder of Sulo-cana (did this really happen in ISKCON? hm...)... And if those stories of poisoning of A.C.Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada are also true? then it is very sad news - especially for so many new disciples who were not even born when all those happened in end of 70-ies and in 1980-es.

But on another hand I think that something is either over-exeggarated - and when on is to be unrelated with some devotees of ISKCON, Gaudiya Matha etc - people simply doing very unexpected thing - they simply leave Krishna consciousness for whole life and become one of some other religion... I see that this happen sometimes. Well, maybe this mostly happens because those people are not very much interested even in India, what to speak of their particular interest in different organizations, philosophical schools etc. But even though if they are interested - they face mostly wide criticism - from same ISKCON and Gaudiya-Matha etc, so they do not want to become some "sectarian fanatic" and simply go on to criticise, but not only those who are found on websites like : http://www.harekrsna.org, but also rather they (I mean outside of Prabhupadas disciples and his Godbrothers disciples etc) criticize Prabhupada, they criticise Krishna calling Him some pagan on polytheistic deity and so on. But all such criticism usually comes from some followers of some spiritual system not very deep (they might be non-vegetarians etc). I am not here to say that "Krishna consciousnes is only religion" and all others are completely blind (well, rather there are some grades - atheism, materialism, transcendentalism: impersonalism, personalism; but still probably here Krishna consciousness/Vaishnavism goes deeper than many others, as they usually do not even take reincarnation - christians, muslims, jews etc; and buddhists also indeed though take reincarnation do not want any relationship with Buddha; so Ild rather be in Krishna consciousness than of some religion which allows meat-eating, wine-drinking in temples, or rejecting milk completely as buddhists do: Krishna and cows on Goloka planet of cows and lactovegetarianism/prasadam seem to go very well together ;-) ). Well, not others may also have some spiritual understanding also in other religions, but usually they start criticising us (ISKCON, Gaudiya Matha etc) - taking our publicly available materials... So keep in mind, indeed - if we make available all kinds of dust publicly - all that would come to different "religious sects" scholars, and they would publish so much nonsense, that after all very few people will remain in ISKCON and it would be just same it was at time when Bhaktivinoda Thakura had to come and restart everything from very beginning as everything was lost in time and different speculations etc...

well, concerning this : harekrsna.org - I found that this one is also considered not very bona-fide (taking this as source here: http://www.prabhupada.org.uk/cult1.htm). And I can agree (maybe also with some remarks, - with prabhupada.org.uk) - is it indeed quite strange for many people to need to go through all kinds of garbage and dirt in ISKCON - to defame Prabhupada.

Im not going to take any side in this complicated neverending story. I think it is much more important to indeed give Krishna consciousness to those who do not know about existence of this anywhere in world. And those who have at least some information - let them decide for themselves. Much better to challenge some atheist and give him Krishna consciousness then remain in small circle discussing faults of disciples of Prabhupada (and/or his Godbrothers ) - be they of whatever origin, past etc.

P.S. It is Kali-Yuga, did anyone forget???

Hare Krishna! All glories to Srila Prabhupada. Please accept my humble obeisances.

Lord Caitanyas pure movement exists separately from the Kali yuga as the pure soul exists separately from the body. Or as the pure holy dhama exists separately from the world, although appearing in it. By the mercy of His Divine Grace Srila Prabhupada and Lord Caitanya Mahaprabhu, hope has arrived in the form of "Srila Prabhupada Lilamrta As It Is." His own words describing Himself. This will surely present and glorify Him correctly, expose pretenders by facilitating comparison of their qualities to the qualifications of His Divine Grace, and shed light on the guru issue. It is available at http://www.prabhupada.org.uk.

"This is the sublime mission of the International Society for Krishna Consciousness. Many people come and inquire whether they have to give up family life to join the Society, but that is not our mission. One can remain comfortably in his residence. We simply request everyone to chant the maha-mantra: Hare Krsna, Hare Krsna, Krsna Krsna, Hare Hare. Hare Rama, Hare Rama, Rama Rama, Hare Hare. If one is a little literate and can read the Bhagavad-gita As It Is and Srimad-Bhagavatam, that is so much the better. These works are now available in an English translation and are done very authoritatively to appeal to all classes of men. Instead of living engrossed in material activities, people throughout the world should take advantage of this movement and chant the Hare Krsna maha-mantra at home with their families. One should also refrain from sinful activities--illicit sex, meat-eating, gambling and intoxication. Out of these four items, illicit sex is very sinful. Every person must get married. Every woman especially must get married. If the women outnumber the men, some men can accept more than one wife. In that way there will be no prostitution in society. If men can marry more than one wife, illicit sex life will be stopped. One can also produce many nice preparations to offer Krsna--grain, fruit, flowers and milk. Why should one indulge in unnecessary meat-eating and maintain horrible slaughterhouses? What is the use of smoking and drinking tea and coffee? People are already intoxicated by material enjoyment, and if they indulge in further intoxication, what chance is there for self-realization? Similarly, one should not partake in gambling and unnecessarily agitate the mind. The real purpose of human life is to attain the spiritual platform and return to Godhead. That is the summum bonum of spiritual realization. The Krsna consciousness movement is trying to elevate human society to the perfection of life by pursuing the method described by Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu in His advice to the brahmana Kurma. That is, one should stay at home, chant the Hare Krsna mantra and preach the instructions of Krsna as they are given in the Bhagavad-gita and Srimad-Bhagavatam."-Srila Prabhupada

"This is called parampara system. Suppose I have heard something from my spiritual master, so I speak to you the same thing. So this is parampara system. You cannot imagine what my spiritual master said. Or even if you read some books, you cannot understand unless you understand it from me. This is called parampara system. You cannot jump over to the superior guru, neglecting the next acharya, immediate next acharya."

(Srila Prabhupada lecture December 8th, 1973)

"As already stated, Brahma is the original spiritual master for the universe, and since he was initiated by the Lord Himself, the message of Srimad-Bhaagavatam is coming down by disciplic succession, and in order to receive the real message of Srimad-Bhaagavatam one should approach the CURRENT LINK, or spiritual master, in the chain of disciplic succession. After being initiated by the proper spiritual master in that chain of succession, one should engage himself in the discharge of tapasya in the execution of devotional service." (Bhag. 2.9.7)

The true pparampara succession does not depend on the institution known as ISKCON. ISKCON has its place. The bona fide successor will be the most surrendered disciple of the predecessor Acarya, not an outsider who claims to be. He will be self-effulgent, wonderfully magnanamous, full of knowledge and the possessor of Sri Krishna. He is able to transfer the Lord from His heart to the heart of his disciple when he becomes pleased upon him. The desire of the soul to accept and be accepted by the bona fide succession is managed by the Lord Himself, through the heart.

Hare Krishna

The true parampara succession does not engage in writing their own biographies and engaging in self promotion, this practice is not in keeping with Gaudiya Vaisnavism and the mood and teachings of Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu. Genuinely advanced devotees do not perceive themselves as deserving nor worthy of a book of self-glorification. The sooner people start reading Srila Prabhupadas books the sooner they will be able to understand who is Guru and who is not. This is more of the asiddhantic deviation that is slowly but surely infecting the Iskcon society.

And therefore BVT didnt write Svalikhita jivani... mind-servant uvaca.

BVT wrote it as per his son BSST request, and he did not auto promote it as a book,
his son did.

Bhaktivinoda begins Svalikhita-jivani by addressing his son, "You have asked me for the details of my life. Whatever I am able to remember I have written down on paper for you. Please see that you do not misuse this story."

Completed on June 21, 1896 at the age of 58, Bhaktivinoda concludes, "O Lalita Prasada, whatever I can recollect up to my retirement I have written in this letter. You will know everything that happens from now on."

How can you compare the Svalikhita-jivani where BVT in his extreme honesty even reveals the fact that he ate meat and fish to Radhanaths book that deliberately leaves out the worst chapters in Iskcon that he had direct involvement with.

Shame on you VEDA for even trying to compare the two.

Svalikhita-jivani was simply a document for his son Lalita Prasad, and it was LP that later published it.

How much more inspiring and glorious it is to read about a human guru who has shown the way by struggling with the negative aspects of material entanglement and succeeded.

I dont compare, I simply react to your "The true parampara succession does not engage in writing their own biographies".

Writing a document for your son is a whole lot different to setting out with an objective of publishing your own biography and the huge self promotion of it, over and above your own gurus books, you need to look a little deeper at the motives, its not that hard.

Like I said "writing their own biographies and engaging in self promotion" It is the blatant self promotion aspect that shows up the asiddhantic deviation

I see the difference; yet your claim remains refuted, admit it or not.

[quote][cite] VEDA:[/cite]I dont compare, I simply react to your "The true parampara succession does not engage in writing their own biographies".[/quote]

This is only a partial quote. MS said:[br][br]

"The true parampara succession does not engage in writing their own biographies [b]and[/b] engaging in self promotion, this practice is not in keeping with Gaudiya Vaisnavism and the mood and teachings of Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu."[br][br]

Perhaps both of you should peruse Schopenhauers The Art of Being Right ("http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Art_of_Being_Right), as your fights are getting rather tedious to watch.[br]
:p

Baker, these exchanges are far from fights. I point out strawmen and explain what I meant.

They are not fights??
They certainly seem like fights to me, given their repetitive nature.

For fights one needs valid arguments which strawmen are not.
They may seem so.

I havent thought about it that way. To me, it always seemed that for there to be a fight, there need to be logical fallacies; no fight, no logical fallacies; no logical fallacies, no fight.
In its proper application, the analytical mind exhausts itself. 8-)

Writing your own biography, publishing and self promoting it is not in the mood of Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu and has not been in our parampara ... VEDA you have only refuted your own mis-quotes and your strawman arguments. You are the one creating false arguments VEDA, splitting hairs and falsely quoting half the sentence. Try quoting the full sentence and then refute that..no you cannot do that because you know also that it has never happened in our paramapara which means you are also attempting to mislead people.

Baker has correctly pointed out to you also VEDA how you have mis-quoted me, but no you could not admit that. VEDA you exemplify what a strawman argument is, create a misquote and then argue against what someone never said or partly said which changes the meaning.

Show me anyone in our parampara that has writen their own biography and then self promoted it? Your reference to BVT shows your lack of investigation and a your lack of deeper understanding and the fact that you have not read it or failed to understand the mood and the reasoning behind why it was written.

Every son asks their father about his life, and having your father write it out in a document and leave it for you is a great thing for any son, it is a part of your own family history. Especially in the way that BVT gave so much extreme honesty about his life. BVTs document was just that, some history to pass on to his own son, it was never an exercise in self promotion.

Radanath in his book, written by himself for his own self glorification is trying to show how glorious and spiritual and advanced he is by attempting to connect the flowing dots of his life into proving that he is indeed a pure devotee. Then he sets about on a world wide promotional tour signing copies, giving television interviews. He deliberately leaves out his involvement with the most blackest chapters of Iskcons history showing his lack of transparency, humilty and honesty. His personal website is also a testimony to his style of blatant self promotion. His website advertises the fact that he is on the road self promoting his own self promoting book, how so many can be so blind amuses me.

This is the opposite activity of a vaisnava, like I said before genuinely advanced devotees do not perceive themselves as deserving nor worthy of a book of self-glorification even when it is written by someone else.

Any fool knows that blatant self promotion is in opposition to humility, humility is the mood being promoted by Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu.

manasi, you conveniently disregard your previous strawmen and focus on half-sentence. If the first half of the sentence is shown as invalid, the second one is of no consequence.

> Show me anyone in our parampara that has writen their own biography and then self promoted it? Your reference to BVT shows your lack of investigation and a your lack of deeper understanding and the fact that you have not read it or failed to understand the mood and the reasoning behind why it was written.

Therere diary type of accounts by Murari Gupta and Svarupa Damodara. Also current disciples of SP are encouraged to write their remembrances of SP which inevitably also include their own biographical info.

From the Vedabase (records 771006 and 1283588) it seems that Tukarama and Bahinabai (both Vaisnavas from other paramparas) wrote autobiographies.

I did read SJ and understood the reason for its writing.

RNS: If you feel appointed as a siksa guru to bring him back to Vaisnava humility, tell it to him directly. I dont think he reads this forum.

VEDA, would you accept initiation from Radanath Swami?

VEDA>>manasi, you conveniently disregard your previous strawmen and focus on half-sentence. If the first half of the sentence is shown as invalid, the second one is of no consequence.

Says you VEDA who duplicitously quotes only part of my statement because that is the only way you can debate in this forum. By consistently mis-quoting and mis-representing its what the old Iskcon hacks used to pull on anyone who opposed the party line.

VEDA go look up the meaning of strawman argument, you are not worth the typing to respond to, as Baker pointed you out, you conveniently mis-quoted me in the beginning and you could not even respond to Baker.

VEDA>>From the Vedabase (records 771006 and 1283588) it seems that Tukarama and Bahinabai (both Vaisnavas from other paramparas) wrote autobiographies.

More false arguments, I already said in the Gaudiya Vaisnava parampara and I also said "and engages in blatent self promotion"

VEDA>>Therere diary type of accounts by Murari Gupta and Svarupa Damodara. Also current disciples of SP are encouraged to write their remembrances of SP which inevitably also include their own biographical info.

remembrances are not autobiographies VEDA, and in your own words they are being asked to write their remembrances and those remembrances will relate directly to Srila Prabhupada and no doubt they will not launch a blatent self promotion campaign, atleast one would hope not.

You have to accept Radhanath is engaged in self promotion and that is simply not an activity of the Gaudiya Vaisnavas, so Radhanath by his own actions has disconnected himself from Srila Prabhupada and is showing everyone that he is not following his own parampara and he is not following in the mood of Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu. One only has to open ones eyes.

ccd, you are missing the main point and that is the blatant self promotion aspect, whether it is done with an autobiography or with a website/blog/newsletter/interview, blatant self promotion is not a mood that fits with humility, you cannot be humble and be into blatant self promotion. They are mutually exclusive.

It is disgusting. I think the whole notion of sorting out "a guru" in terms of recommending him or not is ridiculous. If he is not your guru -- than naturally you may choose to stay away from this, if he is your guru, you should stay away from trying to push your guru on others, and if you see faults in him, you certainly stay away from the whole thing. So the notion of recommending someone is wrong in simple terms, just as it is wrong to criticise someone for choosing a particular genre for a book. I personally enjoy Krisna dasa Kavirajas autobiographical passages in CC. They are great. Of course one should not even imagine that Radhanath Swamis book is anything like that, but to be so narrow-minded as to dismiss the whole genre is rather smelling of fundamentalism to me. Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati wrote a detailed autobiography and it became a basis of some later publications by his disciples (I think only one volume was published of it, Pranava will publish more with his book on BSST). The notion that talking about yourself is not humble is not supported by sadacara of the great people who came before. Listen to Narada, listen to Vyasa, but I just assume there must be an argument against this, just remember that the arguments that do not aim at reaching perfection of bhakti are what they are.

Sure everyone is missing the point you are making, and that is why you have to repeat your point, because you think it is so damn important. Come on. We heard what you had to say, about what you think is the "aspect". So based on this you would not "recommend" him. But the notion of recommending someone is wrong, if anyone recommend Srila Prabhupada and leave it at that.

Yes I agree as far as Iskcon is concerned Srila Prabhupada is the beginning and the end. The Alpha and the Omega...

[quote][cite] manasi_seva:[/cite]ccd, you are missing the main point and that is the blatant self promotion aspect, whether it is done with an autobiography or with a website/blog/newsletter/interview, blatant self promotion is not a mood that fits with humility, you cannot be humble and be into blatant self promotion. They are mutually exclusive.[/quote]

Oh my. Then Krishna Himself is mightily at fault!
8-)

mung: no (several reasons)

ms, its of no use to repeat what I said. You simply have the need to criticize and I was taught to defend the absent ones. As you sow, you shall reap.

The Alpha and the Omega? And his disciples are good for nothing?

I dont know what I didnt respond to Baker. Can you remind me, Baker?

I dont know what you didnt respond to ... perhaps you just werent predictable enough ...

Anyway, generally, people respond poorly when they are confronted with logical fallacies in their arguments. Even people who have completed a course in informal logic can become quite emotional when inconsistencies in what they say are pointed out.
Someone said that brute reason is just as bad as brute physical force.

Sometimes, there are ways to lead another person to see the error of their ways while also helping them to save face in the course of the education. It is simply more efficient that way.
I am still very much working on this, but some approaches that seem to work quite well are: indirectness; deflection by generalization; offering an irrefutable argument that everyone gladly agrees with.

Baker>>Oh my. Then Krishna Himself is mightily at fault! 8-)

Krishna is absolute, even when he kills which he does often, the result is liberation, only one in complete ignorance would make such comparisons, there is simply no comparison between Krishna doing anything vs any activity of any conditioned soul.

You took issue with "blatant self promotion" per se, and I addressed that, per se.
IOW, my point is that there is not necessarily something wrong with "self-promotion" - in the sense that it all depends on who is talking about it: see http://www.dandavats.com/?p=9040#comment-13390.

If I indeed were in complete ignorance, I could not even say words like "Krishna" (and mean God) or make statements like "Krishna is the Supreme Personality of Godhead".

Baker>>If I indeed were in complete ignorance, I could not even say words like "Krishna"

Then you are way in advance of me because I am in complete ignorance.

Shall we compete in who can more lavishly express humility?
;-)

Has it ever crossed anybodies mind that its quite possible that Radhanath Swamis book creates devotees?

Maybe its something a lot of you haters should look into.

Kyros>>Has it ever crossed anybodies mind that its quite possible that Radhanath Swamis book creates devotees?

No, but we do know Srila Prabhupadas books have created thousands of devotees, would it hurt Radhanath to also make his own spiritual masters books available from his own website as a sign of respect?

"He eventually finds himself in a holy forest where his long, matted locks and threadbare garments gain him entrance into the company of renowned yogis and saints. This is where he begins to learn that beautiful things happen in life when we '93let go of our own ego'94.

Wow maybe if we grow matted locks and put on threadbare clothing we can also gain entrance into the company of renowned yogis and saints? who were they exactly?
Beautiful things did happen when he let go of his ego, like his involvement with the blackest chapters of Iskcon. (I guess this is why he left this stuff out of the book, facts always get in the way of a good story)

How much longer must we endure versions of "The Emperors New Clothes"

Iskcon is becoming some weird nightmare, you keep thinking you are going to wake up and all of this weird stuff you are seeing will evaporate. I guess we are all in the bog of maya we can expect to see alot of weird stuff, somehow I get the feeling we are only seeing the tip of the iceberg. Its going to get a whole lot weirder from here on in. Maybe I am seeing whats inside of me but the only response I can give to that is I dont see anything weird about Srila Prabhupada, the vibration I get from Srila Prabhupada rings clear and true.

[quote][cite] manasi_seva:[/cite]Kyros>>Has it ever crossed anybodies mind that its quite possible that Radhanath Swamis book creates devotees?
[br][br]
No, but we do know Srila Prabhupadas books have created thousands of devotees, would it hurt Radhanath to also make his own spiritual masters books available from his own website as a sign of respect?[/quote]
[br]
The same could be said about Srila Prabhupada. In any case, his book is bringing in people to Prabhupadas books anyway, and more important than that, its getting people to chant Hare Krsna, which is the duty for this age.
[br][br]
[quote]"He eventually finds himself in a holy forest where his long, matted locks and threadbare garments gain him entrance into the company of renowned yogis and saints. This is where he begins to learn that beautiful things happen in life when we '93let go of our own ego'94.
[br][br]
Wow maybe if we grow matted locks and put on threadbare clothing we can also gain entrance into the company of renowned yogis and saints? who were they exactly?
Beautiful things did happen when he let go of his ego, like his involvement with the blackest chapters of Iskcon. (I guess this is why he left this stuff out of the book, facts always get in the way of a good story)
[br][br]
How much longer must we endure versions of "The Emperors New Clothes"[/quote]
[br]
There was a huge investigation at New Vrndavana by two state police departments as well as the FBI, and they found no connection to Radhanath Swami. If that fact alone doesnt convince you, then [b][i]nothing[/i][/b] else will.
[br]
The way I see it, if Krsna hasnt done anything about it by now, then there was nothing wrong with him in the first place. The years have already filtered out those who are genuine and those arent. Its about time you open your eyes if you want to see him as he is.
[br][br]
[quote]
Iskcon is becoming some weird nightmare, you keep thinking you are going to wake up and all of this weird stuff you are seeing will evaporate. I guess we are all in the bog of maya we can expect to see alot of weird stuff, somehow I get the feeling we are only seeing the tip of the iceberg. Its going to get a whole lot weirder from here on in. Maybe I am seeing whats inside of me but the only response I can give to that is I dont see anything weird about Srila Prabhupada, the vibration I get from Srila Prabhupada rings clear and true.[/quote]
[br]
So what are you doing about it? Are you making devotees? Are you getting people to chant the Hare Krsna mantra on beads? Are you engaging in the yuga-dharma? Are you getting people to engage in yuga-dharma?

Kyros>>The same could be said about Srila Prabhupada. In any case, his book is bringing in people to Prabhupadas books anyway, and more important than that, its getting people to chant Hare Krsna, which is the duty for this age.

Srila Prabhupada created his own organization called Iskcon he had a right to put fourth his own books within his own organization. The Gaudiya Math even to this day makes BSSTs books available. Radhanath lives within his masters house Iskcon so it is only respectful that he acknowledges Srila Prabhupadas books. Should Radhanath create his own organization then it would be right for him to put fourth only his own books.

Kyros>>There was a huge investigation at New Vrndavana by two state police departments as well as the FBI, and they found no connection to Radhanath Swami. If that fact alone doesnt convince you, then nothing else will. The way I see it, if Krsna hasnt done anything about it by now, then there was nothing wrong with him in the first place. The years have already filtered out those who are genuine and those arent. Its about time you open your eyes if you want to see him as he is.

I did not say he was guilty of anything, only that he chose to leave out a significant chapter of his life where he was deeply involved in New Vrindavan where the blackest chapters of Iskcon took place and to offer his insights on how the spiritual train became so badly derailed would have been useful to many others.

Kyros>>So what are you doing about it? Are you making devotees? Are you getting people to chant the Hare Krsna mantra on beads? Are you engaging in the yuga-dharma? Are you getting people to engage in yuga-dharma?

Im giving my support to those that I see are honestly involved in promoting the mission of Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu, I cannot give my support to people I see who are promoting their own self interests while living in the house of their own master.

Anyway I have said enough about this issue, Kyros if you are a Radhanath supporter that is your right as it is my right to discriminate and support who I see fit.

> would it hurt Radhanath to also make his own spiritual masters books available from his own website as a sign of respect?

fact: Many SP disciples dont have SP books on their websites.
ms conclusion: Therefore theyre not showing signs of respect.

ms, wheres your website with SP books? You never mentioned it, neither your profile shows it.

You say "Im giving my support to those that I see are honestly involved in promoting the mission of Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu"

Who are they? Wheres your preaching?

> Wow maybe if we grow matted locks and put on threadbare clothing we can also gain entrance into the company of renowned yogis and saints? who were they exactly?

names:
http://openlibrary.org/works/OL15192932W/The_Journey_Home_-_Autobiography_of_an_American_Swami_By_Radhanath_Swami

some photos:
http://www.thejourneyhomebook.com/photos/teachers.html

Envy is out of place. Everyone can write ones own book. The spiritual quest genre is very popular, theres a chance itll sell well if a good promotion is done. (ms: "blatant self-promotion")

> Beautiful things did happen when he let go of his ego, like his involvement with the blackest chapters of Iskcon. (I guess this is why he left this stuff out of the book, facts always get in the way of a good story)

Involvement with a community run by a deviant guru over 20 years ago makes one a deviant for life. (ms conclusion)

My question to those who read the book: Where does the story end? At RNSs reaching Vrindavan or at the present time? In the first case, NV part isnt omitted, its just outside his quest story.

Thats why the need for establishing guru/disciple relationship is the basis of instructions; which diverts from SPs one and only original message. Any one who has chosen to follow RNS is party to misconstrue all of the factual original philosophic lessons presented so purely via the blessings of our Gaudiya Matha paramampara disciplic succession

[quote][cite] manasi_seva:[/cite]
Srila Prabhupada created his own organization called Iskcon he had a right to put fourth his own books within his own organization. The Gaudiya Math even to this day makes BSSTs books available. Radhanath lives within his masters house Iskcon so it is only respectful that he acknowledges Srila Prabhupadas books. Should Radhanath create his own organization then it would be right for him to put fourth only his own books. [/quote]

Are we talking about the same Radhanath Swami? I dont know anybody other than Jayadvaita Swami who emphasizes reading Srila Prabhupadas books. Also, his book isnt even printed by the BBT, nor is it being sold in ISKCON centers unless the local authorities authorize it. Your reasonings are full of holes.
[quote]
I did not say he was guilty of anything, only that he chose to leave out a significant chapter of his life where he was deeply involved in New Vrindavan where the blackest chapters of Iskcon took place and to offer his insights on how the spiritual train became so badly derailed would have been useful to many others.[/quote]

VEDA answered this.

[quote]Im giving my support to those that I see are honestly involved in promoting the mission of Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu, I cannot give my support to people I see who are promoting their own self interests while living in the house of their own master.
[br]
Anyway I have said enough about this issue, Kyros if you are a Radhanath supporter that is your right as it is my right to discriminate and support who I see fit.[/quote]
Promoting the mission of Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu is getting people to chant the Hare Krsna maha-mantra in a congregation (you know, the yuga-dharma). His book is doing that and its what Srila Prabhupada wants, your discrimination is biased.

I am not judging whether Radhanath Swami is bogus or not. However, I have the experience of attending a lecture he gave a few months ago and not once did he mention the maha-mantra or Srila Prabhupada. There was no kirtan either. I have his book but have not read it - the book was given to me as a gift. I looked thru it and only finally located one picture of Srila Prabhupada at the end of the book. There are many pics of Radhanath with mayavadi gurus and karmis. I just do not feel inclined to read this book because of the lecture I attended and the pics in the book.

Hari Bhakta dasa:

Interestingly, I just opened one lecture:

http://www.radhanathmaharaj.net/content/greatness-srila-jiva-goswami-radhanath-swami

and it has three full mahamantras and mentions SP once.

Could you please let me know where the book ends as per my question above? Thanks in advance.

Hare Krishna,

I only have the one experience with Radhanath Swami and as I said there was no mention of Srila Prabhupada or the maha mantra. I am not saying that he never mentions either one nor am I judging whether or not he is bogus or not. I am not so advanced that I can judge anyone thus. I am only relating my experience with him.

What question are you talking about? I only just joined this conversation.

This one:
My question to those who read the book: Where does the story end? At RNSs reaching Vrindavan or at the present time? In the first case, NV part isnt omitted, its just outside his quest story.

Hari Hari

Kyros>>I dont know anybody other than Jayadvaita Swami who emphasizes reading Srila Prabhupadas books.

In Iskcon nothings comes as a surprise.