Pariprashnena — Q&A Archive

[quote][cite] halflion:[/cite][quote][cite] manasi_seva:[/cite]
I dont mean to sway the conversation off topic I just think it is interesting that the question being asked "Can someone be Krishna Conscious outside of Iskcon" is often put forward but no one can really say if anyone inside of Iskcon has ever reached the higher levels of Bhakti and truly become Krishna Conscious.[/quote]

Manasi,has anyone inside or outside of Iskcon has ever reached the higher levels of Bhakti and truly become Krishna Conscious at present in the the GM or anywhere. Why only Iskcon.[/quote]

[p]halflion, its a mute point that you have raised, for one all of the previous acharyas (prior to Srila Prabhupada) were not members of Iskcon, so we can say yes absolutely there are people outside of Iskcon that have achieved the highest levels of Krishna Consciousness. Why Iskcon? because the question the thread raised was "Can a person be Krishna Conscious outside of Iskcon" its only fair that the question be reversed[/p]

[quote][cite] manasi_seva:[/cite]
I dont mean to sway the conversation off topic I just think it is interesting that the question being asked "Can someone be Krishna Conscious outside of Iskcon" is often put forward but no one can really say if anyone inside of Iskcon has ever reached the higher levels of Bhakti and truly become Krishna Conscious.[/quote]

Manasi,has anyone inside or outside of Iskcon has ever reached the higher levels of Bhakti and truly become Krishna Conscious at present in the the GM or anywhere. Why only Iskcon.

[quote][cite] ccd:[/cite]?? I was there when GGS left and was in the room just minutes after he left, and spoke with others who were in the room. Not suspicious. Yes there is a resistance for any advancement. But that is expected and natural. There are many glorious devotees like that both in ISKCON and not. Look at many disciples of BSST? Many did reach rather high stages too. I am puzzled, why membership should influence that unless you are following Srila Prabhupada.[/quote]

At a pedagogy class at college, we were discussing the issue of advanced students, the above-average intelligent. Some students put forward the argument that the schools and the government should go to greater lengths to protect them, to provide special activities, programs and resources for them and such. Some other students said that if those advanced, above-average intelligent students really are so advanced, then they will and should find higher interests by themselves, that they themselves will seek and find ways to excell, and that there is no need for the school or state to provide extra for them. After all, what makes them advanced is that from the same resources that are available to everyone, those particular students did more than the rest, and this is what makes them advanced.[br][br]

I am with the latter argument.[br][br]

If a devotee really is advanced, then what is the need to make special allowances for them? True advancement is self-evident; and truly advanced people wont waste their time to fret and complain that they are not being treated according to their advanced level.

[quote][cite] ccd:[/cite][quote][cite] halflion:[/cite][quote][cite] manasi_seva:[/cite]
I dont mean to sway the conversation off topic I just think it is interesting that the question being asked "Can someone be Krishna Conscious outside of Iskcon" is often put forward but no one can really say if anyone inside of Iskcon has ever reached the higher levels of Bhakti and truly become Krishna Conscious.[/quote]

Manasi,has anyone inside or outside of Iskcon has ever reached the higher levels of Bhakti and truly become Krishna Conscious at present in the the GM or anywhere. Why only Iskcon.[/quote]
Good example is Aindra and Gour Govinda Mhrj. Maybe Manasi has more examples, which should be plenty.[/quote]

[p]Yes thats interesting to see you pick these two devotees ccd, I would also have picked these two above any. But I wanted to see a response from someone else, what is also interesting to note is that both of these devotees suffered untimely deaths with suspicious circumstances surrounding both of their deaths and both faced stiff opposition from the formal institution of Iskcon (GBC). One might therefore ask the question is one really allowed to pursue higher levels of Krishna Consciousness within Iskcon[/p]

[quote][cite] manasi_seva:[/cite][quote][cite] ccd:[/cite][quote][cite] halflion:[/cite][quote][cite] manasi_seva:[/cite]
I dont mean to sway the conversation off topic I just think it is interesting that the question being asked "Can someone be Krishna Conscious outside of Iskcon" is often put forward but no one can really say if anyone inside of Iskcon has ever reached the higher levels of Bhakti and truly become Krishna Conscious.[/quote]

Manasi,has anyone inside or outside of Iskcon has ever reached the higher levels of Bhakti and truly become Krishna Conscious at present in the the GM or anywhere. Why only Iskcon.[/quote]
Good example is Aindra and Gour Govinda Mhrj. Maybe Manasi has more examples, which should be plenty.[/quote]

[p]Yes thats interesting to see you pick these two devotees ccd, I would also have picked these two above any. But I wanted to see a response from someone else, what is also interesting to note is that both of these devotees suffered untimely deaths with suspicious circumstances[/p][/quote]?? I was there when GGS left and was in the room just minutes after he left, and spoke with others who were in the room. Not suspicious. Yes there is a resistance for any advancement. But that is expected and natural. There are many glorious devotees like that both in ISKCON and not. Look at many disciples of BSST? Many did reach rather high stages too. I am puzzled, why membership should influence that unless you are following Srila Prabhupada.

[quote][cite] halflion:[/cite][quote][cite] manasi_seva:[/cite]
I dont mean to sway the conversation off topic I just think it is interesting that the question being asked "Can someone be Krishna Conscious outside of Iskcon" is often put forward but no one can really say if anyone inside of Iskcon has ever reached the higher levels of Bhakti and truly become Krishna Conscious.[/quote]

Manasi,has anyone inside or outside of Iskcon has ever reached the higher levels of Bhakti and truly become Krishna Conscious at present in the the GM or anywhere. Why only Iskcon.[/quote]
Good example is Aindra and Gour Govinda Mhrj. Maybe Manasi has more examples, which should be plenty.

Why not?

The only problem might be absorbing the mentality that Sri Guru is dime-a-dozen although that seems to go on in Iskcon also.
The danger is if Sri Guru manifests then he may be neglected in favour of inferior ordinary conditioned Guru. Something like that maybe.
Ysvt.

This is what Sankarshan Das Adhikari answered to this question:

http://www.sda-archives.com/tftd/2009/nov/tftd_110309.html#W:

...
Srila Prabhupada explains in his purport to SB 4.9.11 as follows:

"Transcendental devotional service cannot be complete and cannot be relishable without the association of devotees. We have therefore established the International Society for Krishna Consciousness. Anyone who is trying to be aloof from this Krishna Consciousness Society and yet engage in Krishna consciousness is living in a great hallucination, for this is not possible."

So the point is that if we are sincere about become Krishna conscious, we should take advantage of the wonderful mercy of Krishna as manifested in the form of ISKCON, the International Society for Krishna Consciousness. We have seen countless examples of persons who tried to become Krishna conscious away from the association of the devotees and who failed in their practice of Krishna consciousness.

Sankarshan Das Adhikari

And when that Iskcon society preys sexually on children should we still see that as Krishnas mercy? When devotees bludgeon another devotee to death should we turn a blind eye and say its all krishnas arrangement? When a Gaudiya Math Sannyasi is attacked by two Iskcon fanatics and they nearly drive a screwdriver through his skull shall we say that regardless of their actions they are elevated and pure?

When Srila Prabhupada was on the planet that above statement you have quoted Baker may have been correct, he is now gone and what happened after he left is a total abomination.

Now its up to each individual to seek association and inspiration where they choose and for many, Iskcon is becoming the last option.

baker>>We have seen countless examples of persons who tried to become Krishna conscious away from the association of the devotees and who failed in their practice of Krishna consciousness.

I guess this statement must be applied back to the 11 chosen ones (so called) that took over after Srila Prabhupada who "failed in their practice of Krishna Consciousness"

Again its about Krishna Consciousness not Institutional Consciousness, any fool who thinks Krishna only resides in Iskcon probably thinks Maya only exists outside of Iskcon.

Srila Prabhupada was right, you cannot become Krishna Conscious away from devotees, however the first task is to find humble, honest, sincere devotees of Krishna and that is not an easy task.

If there was not association of devotees besides Iskcon you would be right.

> We have seen countless examples of persons who tried to become Krishna conscious away from the association of the devotees and who failed in their practice of Krishna consciousness.

My understanding is that it refers to those who got in touch with ISKCON (esp. outside India) but left.
There was no other KC society back then. But in India therere Nimbarka and Vallabha sampradayas, both genuine KC societies. Imho, SP never attacked them.

These two groups are made up of 95% ex-ISKCON devotees. Should we all join together in one "happy" family? In one mission? Last week I was traveling down the Ganga by raft with Mahavishnu Swami and his scurvy crew. We came to a temple in Bihar where Srila Bhaktisiddhanta installed the footprints of Lord Caitanya. Around the temple were many posters of the '91World Vaisnava Association. The poster consisted of about 25 different Gurus and their groups '96 our Srila Prabhupada was one of those Gurus. Is this concept a good idea?

I found a very old cassette tape from September 1977. Hari Sauri was traveling in the west and telling the devotees about what Srila Prabhupada was doing. So Srila Prabhupada was approached to join this type of world Vaisnava association, and I was surprised with Srila Prabhupadas strong adamant response: "Why should we join them if they want to know how to preach let them come to me. If we join them they will just see me as any Guru."

"Why should we join them if they want to know how to preach let them come to me. If we join them they will just see me as any Guru." -SP.

The mentality that Sri Guru is dime-a-dozen although that seems to go on in Iskcon also,unfortunately.

> This is what Sankarshan Das Adhikari answered to this question:

Sankarshan Das Adhikari has not answered the question. In his response he quotes Srila Prabhupada, but in his own comment he simply says to take advantage of ISKCON and that history shows it is you need devotee association to become KC. He makes no specific comment about becoming KC outside of ISKCON.

Nrsinga d, are you Parusharama? I see your text is from an article by Parusharama das.

[quote][cite] deena:[/cite]> This is what Sankarshan Das Adhikari answered to this question:[br]

Sankarshan Das Adhikari has not answered the question. In his response he quotes Srila Prabhupada, but in his own comment he simply says to take advantage of ISKCON and that history shows it is you need devotee association to become KC. He makes no specific comment about becoming KC outside of ISKCON.[/quote]

It seems to me though that he did answer it. Srila Prabhupadas purport that he quotes says:[br]
[br]
"Transcendental devotional service cannot be complete and cannot be relishable without the association of devotees. We have therefore established the International Society for Krishna Consciousness. [b]Anyone who is trying to be aloof from this Krishna Consciousness Society and yet engage in Krishna consciousness is living in a great hallucination, for this is not possible.[/b]"

Nope. Nrsinga just have a cut and paste troll on anything that relates to guru-tattva. His name is dave (and he is good friend of Parasurama). Parasurama knows English better too and he has no time trolling.

[quote][cite] deena:[/cite]Nrsinga d, are you Parusharama? I see your text is from an article by Parusharama das.[/quote]
yes I am! :)

R u a uk devotee,do u know me?
Ysvt.

[quote][cite] VEDA:[/cite]My understanding is that it refers to those who got in touch with ISKCON (esp. outside India) but left.[/quote]

I think so too. Also, their reasons for leaving would probably play a part too. For example, if someone left a particular city in search of employment, or whether they distanced themselves from ISKCON due to personal differences with some devotees or the doctrine.[br][br]

[quote]There was no other KC society back then. But in India therere Nimbarka and Vallabha sampradayas, both genuine KC societies. Imho, SP never attacked them.[/quote]

But did he think as highly of them as of ISKCON?

> But did he think as highly of them as of ISKCON?

Obviously he understood GV siddhanta as topmost form of KC.

> yes I am! :) R u a uk devotee,do u know me? Ysvt.

No I am not a UK devotee. I dont know you personally, although I know bhakta charles and Rupa very well. I am proud to say I had the honour of doing some layout and cover page work one year when Rupa helped you print your books for distribution on Vraj-mandal parikrama.

> It seems to me though that he did answer it. Srila Prabhupadas purport that he quotes says:

Seems to me Srila Prabhupada answered it. Sankarshan das himself made no specific comment about becoming KC inside or outside of ISKCON. He only refers to the need for devotee association, which I think is a reasonable response and is the essence of the issue. Because certainly one can be in ISKCON and not be Krsna conscious. Srila Prabhupada has noted this in one of his Caitanya Caritamrta purports.

From a different view.......I used to participate in evening harinams in the interior villages of central India. As the harinam sankirtan party passed the villagers houses, families would come out and with incense, flowers and water and offer them to the deity pictures with more love and attention I have ever witnessed in my devotional life. The focus and absolute faith in the eyes of the elderly was astounding and inspiring, and could be felt internally just by seeing them. We would walk through the village passing rooms full of families gathered around candlelight listening to a speaker reciting from Ramamayan, Bhagavatam or Mahabharata. I envied them all. They would bring out their Gopal deities, show us the different outfits they had made for Gopalji, or takes us into their homes for darshan of Gopalji or Sri Sri Radha-Krishna. These simple villagers were absolutely inspiring in the most basic and heartfelt way. It took me some time to come to terms with the fact that while I personally have a scholarly background and am very inclined that way, however the most inspiring Krishna conscious example I have ever experienced comes from simple people who in general cant read or write. They have never heard of ISKCON.

I only work with Parasurama,Deena. Nice Vrndavan program. He facilitates really nice University prasadam program everyday UCL and Soas. His Londan Hari-nam-sankirtan r the best.
Ysvt.
HK!

> > > deena:Nrsinga d, are you Parusharama? I see your text is from an article by Parusharama das.
> > yes I am!

> ...I only work with Parasurama,Deena.

Now youre not Parasurama? Thanks for the clarification.You might like to put the authors name when you quote their material.

Rtvikism means accepting everyone as only Prabhupadas direct disciple.

Hard Rtvikism means everyone is only Prabhupadas direct diksha
disciple.

Soft Rtvikism means everyone is only Prabhupadas direct siksha
disciple (without recourse to anyone elses siksha).

The truth is that a person who takes diksha from a direct diksha
disciple of Prabhupada is Prabhupadas granddisciple. He took diksha
from Prabhupadas disciple and he may also take siksha from his diksha
guru and other siksha gurus. Naturally if the person is part of ISKCON
he is going to accept lots of siksha from Prabhupada as Prabhupadas
teachings are prevalent in ISKCON. However Prabhupada is still one of
many siksha gurus that he may have. Prabhupada may or may not be the
most important siksha guru for a particular person.

When Satsvarupa asked Srila Prabhupada, "if we initiate a disciple then whose disciple would they be" Srila Prabhupada gave him the obvious answer that "he is your disciple -- I am his grandfather guru" (the same as the relationship between Prabhupadas disciples and Prabhupadas spiritual master, Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakur. The question itself was pretty silly because it would be like my son asking, "dad, if and when I have a kid -- whose kid would he be -- yours or mine?" Of course by answering "your disciple" didnt mean that the day after Srila Prabhupadas departure suddenly eleven of his disciples would be ready to assume the position of diksa guru, sitting on vyasa asanas and being worshiped as pure devotee uttama adhikaris. That was the mistake. Unfortunately there was some thinking going on that the process of initiating should not be interrupted just because Srila Prabhupada was no longer physically present. So the "appointed eleven" fell off one side of the boat and the ritviks fell off the other side of the boat. There was no big rush for people to be initiated whether by the so-called appointed or by Srila Prabhupada in abstentia (posthumously). After all -- how many years went by from the first meeting Srila Prabhupada had with his guru maharaja and the year he became an initiated disciple?

As you say "there was some thinking going on that the process of initiating should not be interrupted just because Srila Prabhupada was no longer physically present." The reasons were given as the fact that there was rather alarmingly large volume of disciples without a second initiation, as Prabhupada stopped giving it and ritviks did not do it. And yet another reason is the fact that obviously a huge number of devotees would be initiated outside of ISKCON by the looming competition from the godbrothers of Prabhupada.

"Can a person be Krishna Conscious outside of Iskcon?"

Many people before A.C.Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada founded ISKCON were (/are) Krishna conscious - Vivasvan, Vaivasvata Manu, Arjuna. So if they were not in ISKCON, - they were not bhaktas? I think labels like ISKCON do not apply here.

I agree with you, anudasa. Apart from the personalities you mention there existed and still exist traditional Gaudiya lineages. I know ISKCON has played an important role in spreading Krsna consciousness in the world, and I am grateful for that, but giving them monopoly on everything related to Krsna shows how limited we are in our understanding of how Sri Caitanyas mission works.

Pushta Krishna: So if everyone accepts that there is no happiness at all to be found in this world...
Prabhupada: Then they are intelligent.
Pushta Krishna: Then what to do?
Prabhupada: Yes. Tad-vijnanartham... Therefore you go to guru. Go to Krishna.
Devotee (1): Do I have to join your movement to be happy? Can I just take Krishna consciousness outside your movement?
Prabhupada: Yes.
Devotee (1): So there is no possibility of me being Krishna conscious outside your movement.
Prabhupada: Krishna consciousness can be developed with devotees. Alone it is difficult.
Devotee (1): If I start my own community outside the movement?
Prabhupada: Yes. The community means many devotees.
(morning walk, October 15, 1975, Johannesburg)

Does SP support creating splinter groups (and ISKCON could be called a splinter group from dysfunctional GM) or does he give a general answer (a definition) only?

In the conversation quoted above, the devotee seems to have been upset, given that he asked two questions in a row, each of which requires an individual answer.
Its not clear what the first "Yes" refers to. It could even be merely a sign to continue the conversation.
Wed need to hear it.

If the inquirer was basically rattling down questions in his upset, then this changes the terms of the communication, and it changes how normative the answers in such a conversation are.

Ive expanded the quote. The devotee (1) seems to simply ask a theoretical question without being upset.

Obviously one can, the notion is false. That doesnt mean we should all leave our gurus organization.

For some, the question isnt about leaving, but "Do we have to join in the first place?" And given the negative experiences that some people have with devotees, this is a justified position for inquiry.

Upon further thought, Srila Prabhupadas statement:
"Anyone who is trying to be aloof from this Krishna Consciousness Society and yet engage in Krishna consciousness is living in a great hallucination, for this is not possible."

can be understood to mean
a) Join my organization; without it, you will never attain the supreme goal; all other organizations are basically wrong or insufficient.
or
b) If you try to engage in Krishna consciousness all by yourself, this will sooner or later, inevitably, bring you into contact with devotees, desiring their association. If it doesnt, then you havent been trying to engage in Krishna consciousness to begin with.

[quote][cite] VEDA:[/cite]Ive expanded the quote. The devotee (1) seems to simply ask a theoretical question without being upset.[/quote]

I wish the conversation would be more analytical. It would be easier to understand.

My freind is a former iskcon devotee whom took shelter of a gaudiya matha guru.His guru i personally love is a real sadhu,however they are practically hopeless to factually preach and establish a preaching centre.Hence they are not proggressive and are inept to create the strong desire to actually preach.They are permanently hiding from the non-devotees almost.Which i find very discouraging...unfortunately iskcon seems to be the only real alternative ....even with its many faults....i wish there was a possible alternative but there preaching legacy is fragile at best it seems to me!

There is a good morning walk conversation in Hawaii in 1975 where some devotees are trying very hard to get Srila Prabhupada to say that one must live in the temple, but Srila Prabhupada says that if one wants one can live outside but that the principles have to be followed.

>"Anyone who is trying to be aloof from this Krishna Consciousness Society and yet engage in Krishna consciousness is living in a great hallucination, for this is not possible."

"Krishna Consciousness Society" doesnt necessarily refer to ISKCON, it could also refer to devotee association in OR out of the institution....seems to me the most important point is GOOD devotee association....association that inspires you to make advancement towards Godhead (without necessarily tagging it ISKCON).

>Prabhupada: Krishna consciousness can be developed with devotees. Alone it is difficult.
>Devotee (1): If I start my own community outside the movement?
>Prabhupada: Yes. The community means many devotees.

In the quote from VEDA, Srila Prabhupada is revealing "Alone it is difficult"...so always associate with devotees.

>We have seen countless examples of persons who tried to become Krishna conscious away from the association of the devotees and who failed in their practice of Krishna >consciousness.

You will notice Sankarsana dasa talks about the "away from the association of devotees" but doesnt necessarily imply "away from the ISKCON institutional walls".

[quote][cite] rasa108:[/cite]>"Anyone who is trying to be aloof from this Krishna Consciousness Society and yet engage in Krishna consciousness is living in a great hallucination, for this is not possible."[br]
[br]
"Krishna Consciousness Society" doesnt necessarily refer to ISKCON, it could also refer to devotee association in OR out of the institution....seems to me the most important point is GOOD devotee association....association that inspires you to make advancement towards Godhead (without necessarily tagging it ISKCON).
[/quote]

The sentences before the one you quoted are:
[br][br]
"Transcendental devotional service cannot be complete and cannot be relishable without the association of devotees. We have therefore established the International Society for Krishna Consciousness."

This makes clear that the "this" in the sentence you quoted refers to ISKCON.

[quote][cite] rasa108:[/cite]"away from the ISKCON institutional walls".[/quote]

Another problem is that it is not clear what "ISKCONs institutional walls" are. Back to the membership question.

>Another problem is that it is not clear what "ISKCONs institutional walls" are. Back to the membership question.

Yes indeed back to the membership question and what constitutes a Krsna Conscious Society....again the main point is good devotee association whether within or outside the walls.

>This makes clear that the "this" in the sentence you quoted refers to ISKCON.

My point here was the definition of ISKCON as a Krsna Conscious Society....its not necessarily about being in a temple complex (of course the temple is a good place to associate due to the presence of the Deities), its about the quality of association either inside the building or outside. We see many examples of bad association within the walls of the institution, and also bad association outside the walls.

Srila Prabhupada uses the word "aloof", which indicates avoiding devotee association...so the main point is to always associate with devotees either inside the temple building or outside yet still remaining connected to the "Krsna Conscious Society".

Oxford dictionary defines aloof as follows "Conspicuously uninvolved and uninterested, typically through distaste"

People may avoid devotee association for a number of reasons. Does it mean that every person who avoids devotee association is being "aloof"?

The main question should firstly be applied back to itself... Are people inside Iskcon becoming Krishna Conscious? and lets be a little more clearer about what we mean by Krishna Conscious. We do not mean a bunch of well meaning people saying Haribol to each other and talking on a telephone while chanting japa mala with the other hand. We mean devotees progressing through the various stages of bhakti and while the main body of devotees will probably be at a Kanistha/Sraddha level we would hope for a few or even one devotee reaching the stages of Prema (proving the scientific process works) and encouraging the rest of the devotees by example and association?

So outside of the founder Srila Prabhupada is there one such devotee in Iskcon that has become truly Krishna Conscious and achieved the highest levels? I ask this sincerely as I have little to do with Iskcon these days owing to past experiences, so if there is just one such devotee then we can take encouragement that within Iskcon one can truly become Krishna Conscious.

Such devotees arent easily recognized. They purposefully hide their bhava. Only similarly advanced devotees can recognize them. Examples: Advaita Acarya meeting Isvara Puri, Gadadhara Pandit meeting Pundarika Vidyanidhi.

Well yes and well no, actually there are symptoms of Prema and Bhava (devine love) as it is written it is a scientific process, not that I mean to reduce divine love to microscopic analysis but there are symptoms of divine love and this has been discussed in different literatures. Usually a pre-eminent devotee is recognized and becomes the Acharya (not always but mostly they do) for it is also a divine service to lead. Well if they do exist probably best they remain incognito otherwise the institutionalists might crucify them. If they havent already!

>Does it mean that every person who avoids devotee association is being "aloof"?

By definition yes

Actually VEDA Iskcon has settled on a ecclesiastical system similar to the Vatican where a board votes in the mini popes (Gurus)

So the system adopted in Iskcon is one of book knowledge and no known fall downs in the past X amount of years and be able to get some votes from high ranking GBC officials. This system doesnt install any faith in me that they have achieved the higher levels of bhakti, but only they have passed the external examination.

Usually in the Gaudiya Sampradaya there is a recognised living Acharya but in Iskcons case we have a system where the board (GBC) of non-gurus vote in the guru. So I guess we are saying there is no one in Iskcon that has become a self effulgent or a highly recognised stand out Acharya? Only a list of XYZ devotees that have passed some external examination?

I dont mean to sway the conversation off topic I just think it is interesting that the question being asked "Can someone be Krishna Conscious outside of Iskcon" is often put forward but no one can really say if anyone inside of Iskcon has ever reached the higher levels of Bhakti and truly become Krishna Conscious.

Theres one Pope voted from a group of many Cardinals but therere many gurus who get no-objection votes. This system is similar to certification systems for doctors, attorneys, etc. Certification doesnt assure the doctor or attorney is top class, only that he passed some criteria meant to exclude unqualified folks.
No one can measure the real advancement of others. Sastra even prescribes to hide ones advanced realizations - SB 11.11.17, 11.18.29, etc. Therefore theres a traditional system of pariksa for guru and disciple (HBV 1.73-76, 2.187-242). In ISKCON its been minimized for the detriment of all.

[quote][cite] rasa108:[/cite]>Does it mean that every person who avoids devotee association is being "aloof"?
[br]
By definition yes[/quote]

So the people who have been abused by devotees and who are thus uncomfortable being around devotees, are per definition "aloof" and counted as no different than any militant atheist?[br]
To the devotees, it matters absolutely nothing what those abused people think and feel?

VEDA>>This system is similar to certification systems for doctors, attorneys, etc. Certification doesnt assure the doctor or attorney is top class, only that he passed some criteria meant to exclude unqualified folks.

Yes but with a Doctor or an Attorney of Law you may not get a top class physician or attorney but they are basically qualified to perform the task you enlist them to do. It is questionable whether a rubber stamped Guru is in anyway qualified to perform the task they have been enlisted to perform.

VEDA>>In ISKCON its been minimized for the detriment of all.

Yes my point exactly, the Phd has been replaced with a Junior High certificate. I guess you get what you pay for at the end of the day, Krishna rewards everyone according to their level of surrender.

> It is questionable whether a rubber stamped Guru is in anyway qualified to perform the task they have been enlisted to perform.

That has to be evaluated individually. Blanket position (all qualified/unqualified) is unwarranted.

I meant that pariksa was minimized. Yet its still possible with some gurus who act mainly locally.

"So outside of the founder Srila Prabhupada is there one such devotee in Iskcon that has become truly Krishna Conscious and achieved the highest levels? I ask this sincerely as I have little to do with Iskcon these days owing to past experiences, so if there is just one such devotee then we can take encouragement that within Iskcon one can truly become Krishna Conscious. "

If someone is sincere for Krishna they will find pure devotees of krishna if not then even if there are pure devotees of krishna they will never be able to benefit.

In my opinion rubber stamped gurus etc is a red herring real advancement and real diksa is following the instructions of a pure devotee and is in our guru varga.

I know devotees in ISKCON who display symptoms of asakti and bhava I cant say what level they actually are on as Im so fallen but can guess from descriptions in NOD and Madhurya kadambini. They are not diksa gurus but definately siksa gurus and from my understanding its following pure siksa that takes you home back to god head and its the essence of diksa rather than the formal diksa ceremony taking anyone back to godhead on its own. Association of devotees includes senior siksa gurus that all play a part major or minor in our attempts to surrender to Lord Krishna.

>So the people who have been abused by devotees and who are thus uncomfortable being around devotees, are per definition "aloof" and counted as no different than any militant atheist?
>To the devotees, it matters absolutely nothing what those abused people think and feel?

Whatever the reason we remain aloof is not the issue....we are discussing what Srila Prabhupada has said about remaining far from devotee association or in other words the "Krsna Conscious Society" - within the walls or outside the walls of the temple. Here is another quote:

"One cannot be independent and at the same time become a devotee because all devotional activities are based on surrender. So in the association of devotees we learn this important item - how to surrender, but if we keep our independence and try to become devotees, that is not possible."

Letter to Rayarama - Friday, 22 October, 1971

[quote][cite] rasa108:[/cite]>So the people who have been abused by devotees and who are thus uncomfortable being around devotees, are per definition "aloof" and counted as no different than any militant atheist?
>To the devotees, it matters absolutely nothing what those abused people think and feel?

Whatever the reason we remain aloof is not the issue....we are discussing what Srila Prabhupada has said about remaining far from devotee association or in other words the "Krsna Conscious Society" - within the walls or outside the walls of the temple. Here is another quote:

"One cannot be independent and at the same time become a devotee because all devotional activities are based on surrender. So in the association of devotees we learn this important item - how to surrender, but if we keep our independence and try to become devotees, that is not possible."

Letter to Rayarama - Friday, 22 October, 1971[/quote]

So a person should go back to an abusive environment?[br]

In the name of becoming a devotee, one should be willing to endure all kinds of abuse, especially from devotees?[br]

In the name of becoming a devotee of Krishna, one should do things that one finds repugnant?[br]

[quote][cite] Baker:[/cite][quote][cite] rasa108:[/cite]>So the people who have been abused by devotees and who are thus uncomfortable being around devotees, are per definition "aloof" and counted as no different than any militant atheist?
>To the devotees, it matters absolutely nothing what those abused people think and feel?

Whatever the reason we remain aloof is not the issue....we are discussing what Srila Prabhupada has said about remaining far from devotee association or in other words the "Krsna Conscious Society" - within the walls or outside the walls of the temple. Here is another quote:

"One cannot be independent and at the same time become a devotee because all devotional activities are based on surrender. So in the association of devotees we learn this important item - how to surrender, but if we keep our independence and try to become devotees, that is not possible."

Letter to Rayarama - Friday, 22 October, 1971[/quote]

So a person should go back to an abusive environment?[br]

In the name of becoming a devotee, one should be willing to endure all kinds of abuse, especially from devotees?[br]

In the name of becoming a devotee of Krishna, one should do things that one finds repugnant?[br][/quote]

I honestly can not see a good judgement in using that highly sensitive and very private letter to Raya Rama as evidence. After all it was meant to him in his particular situation. And the situation was that he left, not because of abuse, but because he refused to follow the regs. In fact Prabhupada approved his living separately before. So it is really not a good quote. Prabhupada was often trying to help a particular soul in the way Krishna dictated him. But at no time he asked devotees to return to a situation of abuse, but yet he asked to stop doing things that are repugnant. That is the essence. The most repugnant thing is to ignite enmity among different Vasnava groups or keep enmity at heart.

[quote][cite] ccd:[/cite]I honestly can not see a good judgement in using that highly sensitive and very private letter to Raya Rama as evidence. After all it was meant to him in his particular situation. And the situation was that he left, not because of abuse, but because he refused to follow the regs. In fact Prabhupada approved his living separately before. So it is really not a good quote. Prabhupada was often trying to help a particular soul in the way Krishna dictated him. But at no time he asked devotees to return to a situation of abuse, but yet he asked to stop doing things that are repugnant. That is the essence. The most repugnant thing is to ignite enmity among different Vasnava groups or keep enmity at heart.[/quote]

I have felt intimidated by how quickly some devotees will judge others, using scriptural quotes, and I have also felt intimidated to see how little opposition there is to such judging.[br][br]

At another forum, an ISKCON priest once said that if a person leaves on their own accord, this means that Krishna is removing those who have no devotion from those who are full of devotion.[br]
I have witnessed something similar at the nama-hatta when they discussed absent devotees.[br]
No questions asked, no discussion, they just got judged, heavily, with scripture. On another occasion, I have learned that some questions were asked, but the replies seemed to me to be "polite lies", the sort of general reply that people tend to give when they dont feel they can genuinely talk about the issue with the asker. The following judgment was still harsh, though.[br][br]

At some point, I felt like saying "You know, this isnt the only nama-hatta in the world, and if someone doesnt come here, this doesnt automatically mean they are completely shunning devotee association or dont practice", but thought that when it comes so far that I considered saying that, then things are so bad that there is no point in saying it anyway.[br][br]

Perhaps these are simply birth pains, and we all have to go through them, and others have to witness them ...

[quote][cite] Baker:[/cite][quote][cite] ccd:[/cite]?? I was there when GGS left and was in the room just minutes after he left, and spoke with others who were in the room. Not suspicious. Yes there is a resistance for any advancement. But that is expected and natural. There are many glorious devotees like that both in ISKCON and not. Look at many disciples of BSST? Many did reach rather high stages too. I am puzzled, why membership should influence that unless you are following Srila Prabhupada.[/quote]

At a pedagogy class at college, we were discussing the issue of advanced students, the above-average intelligent. Some students put forward the argument that the schools and the government should go to greater lengths to protect them, to provide special activities, programs and resources for them and such. Some other students said that if those advanced, above-average intelligent students really are so advanced, then they will and should find higher interests by themselves, that they themselves will seek and find ways to excell, and that there is no need for the school or state to provide extra for them. After all, what makes them advanced is that from the same resources that are available to everyone, those particular students did more than the rest, and this is what makes them advanced.[br][br]

I am with the latter argument.[br][br]

If a devotee really is advanced, then what is the need to make special allowances for them? True advancement is self-evident; and truly advanced people wont waste their time to fret and complain that they are not being treated according to their advanced level.[/quote] Interesting. Besides theory, there is a factor: a common institutional denominator. If you are somehow below the level, you will be judged. If you are (way) above the level you will be pulled down. That how it goes. Unfortunately; but it is true what you are saying (not sure about resources being the same), advanced students in KC " find higher interests by themselves". Our resources it seems is our association with others (and how we do it). Something I have to learn if I ever to reach anywhere above average level.

Veda says sometimes that someone who is advanced knows how to deal with anyone (while those who are not advanced have a much more limited scope).

[quote][cite] ccd:[/cite]Besides theory, there is a factor: a common institutional denominator. If you are somehow below the level, you will be judged.[/quote]

I dont think that it necessarily bad if those who are below the level, are criticized for this.[br]
NoI 5 instructs "One should not remain a kanishtha-adhikuc0u257 ru299 , one who is situated on the lowest platform of devotional service/.../ One therefore has to raise himself from the position of kanishtha-adhiku257 ru299 to the platform of madhyama-adhiku257 ru299 ."[br][br]

People should get a clear sense that KC and devotee association are a serious and important matter.[br][br]

Of course, how this is made clear to them is something else ...

[br]
[br]
[quote]If you are (way) above the level you will be pulled down. [/quote]

Could you explain how you mean "pulled down"?[br]

BG 2.40 says that "in this endeavor there is no loss or diminution", so how could others pull down to a lower spiritual status?[br]

Or by "pulled down" do you mean that other people are being deadweights for the one who is more advanced?

[quote][cite] Baker:[/cite][quote][cite] ccd:[/cite]Besides theory, there is a factor: a common institutional denominator. If you are somehow below the level, you will be judged.[/quote]

I dont think that it necessarily bad if those who are below the level, are criticized for this.[br]
NoI 5 instructs "One should not remain a kanishtha-adhikuc0u257 ru299 , one who is situated on the lowest platform of devotional service/.../ One therefore has to raise himself from the position of kanishtha-adhiku257 ru299 to the platform of madhyama-adhiku257 ru299 ."[br][br]

People should get a clear sense that KC and devotee association are a serious and important matter.[br][br]

Of course, how this is made clear to them is something else ...
[/quote]
Well. Sometimes I wish I am to become a kanistha adhikari. In fact, any kind of adhikara would be nice. :--)
[br]
[br][quote][cite] Baker:[/cite][quote]
[quote]If you are (way) above the level you will be pulled down. [/quote]

Could you explain how you mean "pulled down"?[br]

BG 2.40 says that "in this endeavor there is no loss or diminution", so how could others pull down to a lower spiritual status?[br]

Or by "pulled down" do you mean that other people are being deadweights for the one who is more advanced?[/quote][/quote]
I have observed that it is natural for any society to NOT encourage something extraordinary, in fact it is expected to be or to remain an average, and certainly if you are above the average level there will be some resistance from the mediocre or status-quo crowd. Higher you less is push or even support. Even in regular education there is more work to do PhD than to finish school, kind of obvious. To be more specific, there is certain social resistance to anyone who is above average, and this resistance is noticeable more in vertical collectivist societies, in more individualist societies or groups it is less so.

But what does the social push and shove have to do with the spiritual?
Suffering (an example of which is the social push and shove) pertains to the material, not the spiritual.
Surely one can be obstructed materially - in terms of being denied money, shelter, clothes, food, respect, social ties ...

But how can one person spiritually pull down another person?
One doesnt have to be well-respected by all devotees / all people in order to make spiritual progress, or does one?

I am not trying to be merely theoretical or abstract. I think this is an important aspect of understanding hardship with other people and how it relates to spiritual issues.

This social has nothing to do with spiritual. But sanga of devotees who are not in the spiritual world (yet) is social and has a resemblance of the material societal structures that devotees were part or remain part of. Sanga is the miracle cure, and yet can be the worst curse. It is because of sanga that one can advance, sanga of advanced devotees is so important. But materialistic or offensive sanga is a biggest problem for an aspiring devotee. In fact devotee is defined in terms of sanga, asat sanga tyaga. I can not say more on it, sorry. But you have to mould your life and your sanga to ensure your progress, and the whole point of Nectar of Instruction is to form that understanding in you, or you will be lost. Dont think that you can make it alone, and keep association of sadhus of your own level and higher, and if you can make sure they are likeminded.

[quote][cite] ccd:[/cite]Dont think that you can make it alone, and keep association of sadhus of your own level and higher, and if you can make sure they are likeminded.[/quote]

I am not suggesting that one can or should make it alone. My concern is more in the direction of what is a person supposed to do when devotees ignore them or push them out of their association.

Personal observation ...can devotees be krishna concious outside iskcon....?.yes ,especially in the Sridhar swami ,govinda maharaja ...chaitanya saraswati camp .Are they able to preach powerfully?....practically no ,only in a very limited manner .But they are genuine sincere and forth right vaisnavas whom should be encouraged to serve along side iskcon powerhouse!
Do they have the blessing our the previous archaryas yes,however they are unable to foster an expert preaching siddanta to properly utilise yukta-vairagya ,Neither will they grow internationally because of the immense hurdles they face now they are bereft of a powerful archarya and have no practical ability to create a preaching beach-head. (financially especially)
Narayanna maharajas team within the western world has grown and offers shelter to many whom were unable previously to spoon feed themselves krishna conciousness within iskcon.They will find it extremely differcult to continue there raganuga bhakti attacks on iskcon because there is a signifigant groundswell of resentment and aggression from formerly freindly tolerant iskcon leaders.We have learnt much about indian culture and there aggressive guru tactics of attacking even your former siksa guru to promote your own agendas.Hence iskcon has began to rally and will probably stiffen its resolve.Wether narayanna maharaja offers krishna conciousness is debatable since he is in severe disagreement with the saraswati -chaitanya siksa bhagavat lines conclusions.

Iskcon is growing despite so many material impediments and is light years ahead of all other societies,especial when you see that they are unable to foster there own congregations ,intentionally zero in on our members or they must desperately seek to grab our congregational members for quick results especially by the narayanna maharaja team.Myself i know hundreds of my superiors whom are blissfully krishna concious ,so i have no desire to search outside iskcon.After all the flavour of krishna conciousness outside is bereft of the (bhaktivedanta ) Prabhupada flavour which is so dynamic and unique so why would i bother!

Well can you become progressive in your krishna conciousness outside of iskcon...?Firstly to do this you need fixed devotees to worship and serve.So there are a few in other vaisnava lines.If you are a devotee whom is not indian automatically many of these will not accept you.Even recently when i was with the Narayanna maraja team,they had the bizarre mood that because i was european i could not be a genuine servant of the diety (radha -krishna)because of my birth.No future there so i moved on.So if you are indian there is room in there lines if you come from the correct family lineage.If however you come from a western background realistically there is only ISKCON.!