Pariprashnena — Q&A Archive

Becoming a Vaisnava and chanting Suddha-Nama is not easy, so therefore we have the varna-asrama system to follow to purify ourselves. The same reason why we do deity worship, its a supplementary to our main practice of chanting.

The second initiation ceremony isnt a Hindu thing, its part of varna-asrama.

Second initiation is containing the sampradaya mantras - Gopala mantra

Sampradaya vihinam ye mantras te nisphala matah

Diksa is described as :

tapa pundra tato nama mantro yagas ca pancama

Strictly speaking hari-nama is not mantra, it is nama, or the name of God mantra is given at second initiation.

Prabhupada introduced fire sacrifice to mantra upadesha of the first initiation, this is not a custom anywhere else, thus first initiation is very important, but it is with the second initiation that we received the mantra Prabhupada got in parampara from BSST and Gaurakisora Babaji Maharaja etc. 18 syllable Gopal mantra of Brahma Samhita.

That is all for now Mukunda Prabhu. ysccd

Dear Kyros,
Hare Krishna!
Thank you for kindly answered my question. Ive chosen Haridas Thakur example on purpuse because he was a
convert who came from Muslim faith. I believe His practice and life deserve a careful study which may contribute to rethink our practice of bhAgavata-dharma in Kali-yuga. If Im not wrong, second initiation means SaT-karman or dovetail oneself to the six activities prescribed for brAhmaNas including deity worship (just to give an example) which means performing fire ceremonies, and a broad list of practices which require an unavoidable culture shift. Its not secret among devotees that most of us are not ready to undertake such a change. In addition, what about when we tell people who approach us that "you dont have to change your culture. Just put Krishna in the center of your life, learn to love Him, and chant His sweet names." If I have understood what you mean, Im supposed to change my discourse like this, "at first,
you are not supposed to change your culture..."
So, why we still call Haridas a nAmAcArya? What does Haridas Thakur really have to do with us?

Yours in Prabhupadas mercy,
Mukunda-dasa

I like your example of Haridasa Thakura, he is also my favorite character in the lila of Mahaprabhu. However it is not certain that he only received harinama. Based on what I see in stories of the time, there was a ceremony (by Advaita Acarya) and he was given the name, the holy name and the mantra. The deity worship as we know it (it it not just for sat-karma or pious religious deeds) is an innovation in our tradition also, it was not the purpose of the mantra you get, some were not even allowed in the temple of Jagannath but would worship Deity in our way, now we have an advanced elaborate worship, but it was not like that. One can engage in our sampradaya worship without being a brahmana, Bhaktivinoda Thakura never had a brahmana tread, nor did Gaura Kisora Babaji, or Prabhupada and his sister, they were worshiping the forms of Gaura Gadadhara, Gaura Nitai, Radha Krishna without wearing the tread (where did prabhupada said that you can not worship a deity form if you do not have a second initiation?) Its a "standard" adopted now and is important for preaching. He gave second brahmana initiation in 1968 before any murti was installed in USA. It is a good temple standard to have a proper brahmana who worships deity, it attracts materialistic hindus and it is a proper way to present our philosophy that Vaisnava is already a brahmana.

Just as it looks good to have proper installation ceremony for the temple with born-brahmanas, but Prabhupada said that he prefers our devotees kirtan instead of the yajna for installation of Krishna Balarama (but he would use the professional-brahmanas only to please the local residents).

So yes we should follow example of Haridasa Thakura, but get initiation into the sampradaya mantras too, even if the holy name is sufficient to deliver you. For chanting the hari-nama you do not even need to be initiated to be delivered, you do not even need to be a human:-) but for the pleasure of Prabhupada you want all the perfection and all the mantras he gives in parampara. Both brahmana treads and sannyasa dress are external preaching tools (daivi-varnasrama preaching), but gopal mantra and sannyasa mantra are not just for preaching, it is for self-realisation (while all is contained already in the holy name, they help you realize it).

Do not reject any chances you have in getting the second initiation, it is important.

Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakur;

'a0'a0'a0One who chants suddha-krsna-nama even once is indeed a Vaisnava & Diksa (initiation) is unnecessary in terms of the existential reality (tattva) of sri n'e4ma At this point, one more thing needs to be considered. Becoming a suddha Vaisnava does not depend on the process of taking diksa (ceremonial initiation). Diksa is the process whereby a person receives a mantra for the worship of Sri Hari'92s deity form, and thus comes at least to the stage of vaisnava-praya. 'a0 In terms of the existential reality of the holy name (nama-tattva), such diksa is unnecessary. As Sriman Mahaprabhu has said:
'a0'a0 prabhu kahe,'97'93yanra mukhe suni eka-bara krsna-nama, sei pujya,'97srestha sabakara'94 'a0'a0

Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu answered, '93He from whose mouth krsna-nama is heard even once is worshipful and is the best among human beings.'94'a0
eka krsna-name kare sarva-papa ksaya nava-vidha bhakti purna nama haite haya 'a0'a0

Even uttering Krsna'92s name a single time destroys all of one'92s sins. The nine-fold process of devotional service (navadha-bhakti) attains completeness only through nama.'a0

diksa-purascarya-vidhi apeksa na kare jihva-sparse a-candala sabare uddhare'a0

One is not required to undergo the process of receiving diksa or any preparatory regulative rites in order to chant krsna-nama. Simply by coming in contact with the tongue, krsna-nama delivers everyone, including even the most degraded class of men.'a0
anusanga-phale kare samsarera ksaya citta akarsiya karaya krsne premodaya Sri Caitanya-caritamrta, Madhya-lila (15.106'96109)

'a0'a0 As a secondary result of chanting krsna-nama, one'92s material entanglement is terminated. The primary result is that the mind and heart of the chanter become uncontrollably drawn to Krsna and finally krsna-prema awakens in his heart.

'a0'a0 ataeva yanra mukhe eka krsna-nama sei ta'92 vaisnava, kariha tanhara sammana Sri Caitanya-caritamrta, Madhya-lila (15.111) 'a0'a0

One who even chants Krsna'92s name a single time is described as a Vaisnava;'a0

Translated from'a0Sri Gaudiya Patrika, Year 7, Issue 10

in'a0Rays of The Harmonist, Kartika Issue, 2009.

Tattva das says: April 1, 2010 Thank you for your thoughtful reply. Yes, one who has made a commitment to ISKCON'92s mission should strive to the fullest extent possible to adjust himself to remain in ISKCON. However, as you know, many devotees after 1977 were told, '93unless you accept diksha from this Zonal Guru, and worship him as an uttama-adhikari, you will be banished from ISKCON.'94 Would you fault those devotees for being honest with themselves and others, and refusing to participate in something they couldn'92t believe in (and in retrospect, something in which almost all who refused were proven correct)? A modern example: There are some devotees who came to ISKCON after 1977 yet consider Srila Prabhupada their primary siksha-guru, and who '97 satisfied by their link to the bhagavata-parampara '97 choose not to seek diksha. Even though these siksha-disciples are not '93fanatic Prabhupada-onlyites '97 they are happy to let others choose a diksha-guru according to their faith '97 some ISKCON leaders consider such attachment to Srila Prabhupada to be an affront against ISKCON, and try to push these devotees out when they can. That cannot be good for the unity of ISKCON as a society under Srila Prabhupada'92s authority, can it be? Obviously, if one'92s primary spiritual relationship '97 diksha or siksha '97 is with Srila Prabhupada, one would naturally seek to serve in his ISKCON rather than in some other society established by a Godbrother or disciple of Srila Prabhupada. Sadly, at present, there are parts of ISKCON in which the concept of bhagavata-parampara is preached but not practiced. ISKCON already allows certain gurus to present themselves (albeit quietly most of the time, to an intimate circle of sympathizers) as uttama-adhikari, while allowing others to present themselves as essentially nothing more than '93monitor gurus'94 whose job is to formalize the disciple'92s position in the society so he can serve Srila Prabhupada. With this variety already allowed, why not take just two more steps? (1) Accept that a siksha-disciple of Srila Prabhupada is '93just as fully'94 his disciple as a diksha-disciple. Of course, without gayatri mantras there will be certain ceremonial and public functions off-limits to a devotee who makes that choice '97 which the humble siksha-disciple should accept, just as Srila Haridas Thakur didn'92t press for greater status. (2) Accept that one can be fully a siksha-disciple of Srila Prabhupada even if diksha was given by some other Vaishnava. This would preserve ISKCON for all time as the singular institution dedicated to the pre-eminent position of Srila Prabhupada, and all devotees '97 be they initiates of anyone else '96 could find their service accepted within ISKCON so long as they sincerely upheld Srila Prabhupada as their primary guru. In fact, if someone eventually wants to make a movement insisting on the presumed uttama-adhikari status of his guru, such a movement should be separate from ISKCON, despite the diksha-lineage from Srila Prabhupada. Srila Prabhupada may have produced many uttama-adhikari disciples, but ISKCON should be the movement that can unite all those who accept Srila Prabhupada as their most prominent guru, siksha and/or diksha. Once that principle is established, diksha can retire to its deserved status as a private matter of conscience between gurus and disciples who are united in their purpose of service.

Dear Prabhus, Hare Krishna. All gl'f3ries to Srila Prabhupada.

Thank you for your kind responses which have clarified a little my understanding on second initiation. Devotional service to Shri Krishna, as presented by Srila Prabhupada, has so many rules and although I received second initiation in 1994, for the time being, Im not ready to follow all of them, and, perhaps, in this life it ill be not possible for me. However, I have faith in the holy name of Shri Krishna and I sincerely practice japa daily to which Im very attached. Theres a long way to walk, but Ill do it according to my capacities. For while, trying to chant in a helpless mood is enough to me.
Im astonished how Krishna consciousness can go so far. So I beg you, please, be merciful to me and pray to Krishna so that I can make further advancement.

Yours in Krishna consciousness,
Mukunda-dasa

It is not an easy subject. Mainly because it is seen so differently in different traditions and the fact that ISKCON second initiation is different from other.

It is an educated barbarian who is the worst;he knows what to destroy.

Helen MacInnes.

The greatest obstacle to discovery is not ignorance - it is the illusion of knowledge.

Daniel J.Boorstein.

When you have a public that is literate without being discriminating,they are bound hand and foot.

David Daiches.

The person who knows how will always have a job. The person who knows why will always be his boss.

Diane Ravitch.

The greatest obstacle to discovery is not ignorance - it is the illusion of knowledge.

Daniel J.Boorstein.

When you have a public that is literate without being discriminating,they are bound hand and foot.

One should be prepared to learn in order to advance in Krishna science. The difficulty is that people refuse to learn and to advance further,... a sign of voluntary ignorance...

[quote][cite] borokrsnadasa:[/cite]One should be prepared to learn in order to advance in Krishna science. The difficulty is that people refuse to learn and to advance further,... a sign of voluntary ignorance...[/quote]

yes,and the illusion of knowledge.

I can not believe my own eyes. Does it mean you agree that without having obtained the mantra in parampara you have the illusion of knowledge?

[quote][cite] borokrsnadasa:[/cite]I can not believe my own eyes. Does it mean you agree that without having obtained the mantra in parampara you have the illusion of knowledge?[/quote]

Ha,Ha! Only ccd would ask such a question like that!
;-)

Ha,Ha! How cool am I?
Way too advanced for u! ;o)