Pariprashnena — Q&A Archive

The first thing o do is to remember that Srila Prabhupada was a person - a person has opinions, likes, and dislikes, and a particular way of looking at the world. You may not agree with everything he says, but you can respect his contribution to society in general - he turned a lot of social misfits into basically very nice people.

Another point: if you should read writings of many famous people from Srila Prabhupadas generation you would notice that his views in these matters are not at all uncommon.

Jaya Prabhu, thats just my two cents, please fell free to contest or comment any of my conclusions:

"Yes, that is law always. Rape means without consent, sex. Otherwise there is no rape. There was a rape case in Calcutta, and the lawyer was very intelligent. He some way or other made the woman admit, "Yes, I felt happiness." So he was released. "Here is consent." And thats a fact. Because after all, sex, rape or no rape, they will feel some pleasure. So the lawyer by hook and crook made the woman agree, "Yes, I felt some pleasure." "Now, there is consent." So he was released. After all, it is an itching sensation. So either by force or by willingly, if there is itching, everyone feels relieved itching it. Thats a psychology. It is not that the woman do not like rape. They like sometimes. They willingly. That is the psychology. Outwardly they show some displeasure, but inwardly they do not. This is the psychology." (Morning Walk '96 May 11, 1975, Perth)

This passage is very complicated to understand, but based on my understand of the teachings of Srila Prabhupada teachings, I can say that this is a similar case to to the uc0u346 ru299 mad Bhu257 gavatam 4.25.41 "rape" verse, that is also an much commented case. The purport says:

"Every husband is certainly a great hero to his wife. In other words, if a woman loves a man, that man appears very beautiful and magnanimous. Unless one becomes beautiful in the eyes of another, one cannot dedicate his whole life to another. The husband is considered very magnanimous because he gives as many children to the wife as she likes. Every woman is fond of children; therefore any husband who can please his wife by sex and give her children is considered very magnanimous. Not only does the husband become magnanimous by begetting children, but by giving his wife ornaments, nice food and dresses, he keeps her completely under submission. Such a satisfied wife will never give up the company of her husband. Manu-sau109 u769 hitu257 recommends that to keep a wife satisfied a husband should give her some ornaments because women are generally fond of home, ornaments, dresses, children, etc. In this way the woman is the center of all material enjoyment.
In this regard, the word vikhyu257 tam is very significant. A man is always famous for his aggression toward a beautiful woman, and such aggression is sometimes considered rape. Although rape is not legally allowed, it is a fact that a woman likes a man who is very expert at rape."

You can notice that the word "rape" is used in the 19th British sense, "taking away by force", "kidnaping", or "abducting" the desired woman from the fathers house, to marry her, which is consistent with other purports from Srila Prabhupada. You can see this clearly hearing the classes on London about the first chapter of the Bhagavad-Gita, where Prabhupada talks about the Ksatria code of abducting the wife from the parents house after getting invited by her, the perfect hero on a white horse history:
http://www.prabhupadavani.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=531&Itemid=72

Some woman have fantasies about an attractive man getting attracted to her to the point of trying to trying to have her by force. This is the source of some "rape fantasies", that are not about rape at all, since in these cases, the woman also desires the men. Im my opinion, this passage was told on these lines, albeit the exposition was not that nice. You have to keep in mind that English was not the native language of Srila Prabhupada, and this passage was told in a carefree way.

"I am also in receipt of your letters dated October 20 & 21, 1975. I note that your wife and Visalaini both gave birth to baby girls. That is the defect. I want male children but you have no stamina for it. I expected from Visalaini by her belly that it would be a boy. Anyway, never mind. The name Brijlata is nice. Why do the majority of my married disciples give birth to girls?" (Letter to Dhananjaya, Bombay, November 9, 1975)

There is a passage on Srimad Bhagavatam (I dont remember exactly, maybe other devotee can give clarification on this), that states that, if in the moment of the conception, the desire of the man is stronger, than the child will be a boy, and if the desire of the woman is stronger, than it will be a girl. I can understand that Srila Prabhupada wanted some male kids to preach, become sannyasis, etc. as some fathers desires a male son to be engineers, football players, etc., so maybe he was just being fraternal and chastising his male disciple in a playful way (keep in mind that this was a private letter to a male disciple).

(continue)

"Sudra is to be controlled only. They are never to be given freedom. Just like in America. The Blacks were slaves. They were under control. And since you have given them equal rights they are disturbing, most disturbing, always creating a fearful situation, uncultured and drunkards. What training they have got? They have got equal right? That is best, to keep them under control as slaves but give them sufficient food, sufficient cloth, not more than that. Then they will be satisfied."
(Room Conversation, "Varnasrama System Must Be Introduced," Mayapura, February 14, 1977)

This one is a bit more complicated, but I can tell that the general line was about sinful activities. In a spiritual sense, maybe it can be better to remain under a master (the master will be responsible, not you) than to be free and use the freedom in a foolish way. You have also to keep in mind that in the 70s there was a great social strife between "black and white" people, and there was some really bad news about "black people" doing bad things (as the majority of newspapers where being controlled by the "white" class, so they where more than happy to publish stories about "mad negros"), so maybe this comment was in response to some bad news. The devotees should have asked for clarification on the point.

"Certainly we are not going to say these things about the negro people publicly...you can understand that these talks are not for the public, as they have not got the ability to understand." (Letter to Satsvarupa Dasa - San Francisco, April 9, 1976)

I have to agree on that one. If even us, that are trying to be devotes, are striving to understand this particular passages, what about the general public :-)

To conclude, I must say that Prabhupada wrote 80 books and left more than 2000 hours of recordings, many thousand of letters, etc. and passages like that are extremely rare (to my knowledge, these five are the most grave among then). These are "anomalies" among the general message, that was that "these are just social conventions, we are all equal, because we are not the body". We can see a number of examples of that vision in the work of Srila Prabhupada, he was the first acarya to open Bramacharini Asramas, to send female devotess out to do sankirtana, and to really treaty everyone (as far as the social etiquette permitted) equally, despite being male or female, black or white.

The "inferior woman" problem was not created by Srila Prabhupada (quite the opposite, he fought with it it when he was still on the planet), but by some devotes that brought these sexist and racist misconceptions from their backgrounds and somehow polluted iskcon with then, misusing some isolated passages from Srila Prabhupada to sustain their perverted assumptions.

Take the BG 9.32 for example:

"O son of Prtha, those who take shelter in Me, though they be of lower birth--women, vaisyas [merchants], as well as sudras [workers]--can approach the supreme destination".

First of all, this verse was incorrectly edited. The "--" where added, changing the meaning of the verse. On the manuscript, Srila Prabhupada wrote:

"O son of Prtha, anyone who may take shelter in Me, whether a woman, or a businessman, born in a low family, yet can approach the Supreme Destination."

The meaning is different. The purpose of the verse is to attest that anyone that takes shelter in Krishna approach the Supreme Destination, not to say that woman are inferior. The purport makes this very clear:

"It is clearly declared here by the Supreme Lord that in devotional service there is no distinction between the lower or higher classes of people. In the material conception of life, there are such divisions, but for a person engaged in transcendental devotional service to the Lord, there are not. Everyone is eligible for the supreme destination. In the Srimad-Bhagavatam it is stated that even the lowest, who are called candalas (dog-eaters), can be elevated by association with a pure devotee. Therefore devotional service and guidance of a pure devotee are so strong that there is no discrimination between the lower and higher classes of men; anyone can take to it. The most simple man taking center of the pure devotee can be purified by proper guidance. According to the different modes of material nature, men are classified in the mode of goodness (brahmanas), the mode of passion (ksatriyas, or administrators), the mixed modes of passion and ignorance (vaisyas, or merchants), and the mode of ignorance (sudras, or workers). Those lower than them are called candalas, and they are born in sinful families. Generally, those who are born in sinful families are not accepted by the higher classes. But the process of devotional service and the pure devotee of the Supreme God are so strong that all the lower classes can attain the highest perfection of life. This is possible only when one takes center of Krsna. One has to take center completely of Krsna. Then one can become much greater than great jnanis and yogis."

You can see Srila Prabhupada speaking directly on the subject here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kwjZO6B6aGg

"-In spite of that, can women know Kuc0u7771 u7779 u7751 a as'85

We have no such distinction.

- No distinction'85

We give Krishna consciousness both to the woman and man equally. We do not make any such distinction.

But to protect them from this exploitation by man, we teach something, that '93You do like this.

You do like that. You be married. Be settled up. Don'92t wander independently.'94 We teach them like that.

But so far Krishna consciousness is concerned, we equally distribute. There is no such thing that

'93Oh, you are woman, less intelligent or more intelligent. Therefore you cannot come.'94 We don'92t say that.

We welcome women, men, poor, rich, everyone, because in that platform equality.

vidyu257 -vinaya-sampanne bru257 hmau7751 e gavi hastini
u347 uni caiva u347 vapu257 ke ca pau7751 u7693 itu257 u7717 sama-daru347 inau7717 [Bg. 5.18]

We do not refuse anyone. That is equality."

Can you see: "because in that platform (there is) equality.". This is the conclusion that the devotees should apply. That was what Prabhupada teached when he started Bhahmacarini asramas and so many other things. But, instead, a hole generation of the devotees got trained to see the material and superficial meaning, and then try to apply this material mentality to the spiritual life. So, not only woman are "inferior", but female devotes become "inferior" and less capable. That was not what Srila Prabhupada wanted.

Hare Krishna. All glories to Srila Prabhupada. Please accept my humble obeisances.

His Divine Grace AC Bhaktivedanta Swami Srila Prabhupada is neither racist nor sexist, he is the most loving, intelligent, capable, self-sacrificing Divine Personality and He is very dear to Lord Krishna. Nor does he make statements which are racist or sexist. He is the bona fide representative of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Sri Krishna Who is the source, controller and enjoyer of His entire creation, both spiritual and material. Srila Prabhupada does not concoct attitudes nor instructions, He presents everything as the Lord wills and if any rarely-found sane person wants to be admitted into the loving affaris of Sri Sri Radha and Krishna they can do what Urmila mataji did and defend Srila Prabhupada or at least consider themselves incapable of understanding at this point in time. We are not these bodies! Neither male nor female, negro nor white. We have these bodies and suffer due to our own pervious wrong doings. Some qestioned the description of a single sun, some questioned the assertation that man cannot enter the Moon planet--and they left Srila Prabhupada and lost their right to Lord Krishna. Right or apparently wrong, Sri Guru is always right. Our misunderstandings are tests. Those who critisize Srila Prabhupada or the shastras are rejected by Sri Krishna and Srila Prabhupada himself.

SB 6.14.11 clearly states: Citraketu had ten million wives, but although he was capable of producing children, he did not receive a child from any of them. By chance, all the wives were barren.

The question was (from rather a senior devotee) who said that it came up on a previous class, and the estimate they did was rather alarming, for it takes a long time.
[/quote]

This could be coming close to what was discussed in the room conversation from June 26, 1975 in Los Angeles,http://prabhupadabooks.com/d.php?g=162062 , about King Ugrasena and his four billion personal servants.

...
Devotee (1): But then because so many things they have to accept on faith without knowing, it then weakens their faith as to what they should accept and why should they accept Kuc0u7771 u7779 u7751 a, who they cant see any more than King Ugrasenas four billion bodyguards.

Prabhupu257 da: Dont accept. Dont accept.

Devotee (2): But we want them to accept. The point is, if we say to a scientific man, "There was four billion," and if our statement is wrong...

Prabhupu257 da: But our position is that if some portion we cannot understand, it is our incapability.

Devotee (2): That is all right. But since we are...

Prabhupu257 da: Thats all. Unless we have got this faith we cannot use these Puru257 u7751 as. In the Puru257 u7751 as there are many such statements.

Devotee (2): Yes, but we just want to understand.

Prabhupu257 da: Therefore many people, they do not accept Puru257 u7751 as. So what can be done?
...

Prabhupu257 da: You should do your business. Thats all. Earn money and enjoy.

Devotee (2): No, I mean what should we do Ku7771 u7779 u7751 a consciously?

Prabhupu257 da: You give up Ku7771 u7779 u7751 a consciousness, I say. That is my advice.

Devotee (2): Why should we do that?

Prabhupu257 da: Then that I cannot say.

Devotee (1): Isnt there a middle of the road?

Prabhupu257 da: If you are finding so many faults, you give it up.

Devotee (1): No. Were not finding fault.

Prabhupu257 da: Then there is no other advance, alternative. No alternative. Either you accept or reject it.

Devotee (1): We accept, but we would like some instruction on...

Prabhupu257 da: No. I have no such knowledge to convince you.

Devotee (1): No, we accept Ku7771 u7779 u7751 a consciousness philosophy...

Prabhupu257 da: Thats all right. Accept, or if you reject, reject.

Devotee (1): We accept.

Devotee (2): We want to apply it.

Devotee (1): We want to apply it to the world as it is now.

Prabhupu257 da: No no. You cannot. You are not authorized.

Devotee (1): Well, who is authorized?

Prabhupu257 da: The authorized... You are not authorized. Who is authorized, that is not your business.

Before we encountered Srila Prabhupadas books most of us didnt know how to clean our back side properly.Now there is so much effort going on to scrutinize and criticize all that he had written or said.

There was once study done about female sexuality in which it was confirmed that females indeed found various violent sexual acts projected on screen in front of them quite arousing(scientists attached sensors to their vaginas).Perhaps after reading the matter of rape will be clearer:
http://www.takeninhand.com/when.rape.is.a.gift

I heard that on Dhira Govindas seminars many ladies from our movement openly admitted having fantasies about being raped.If they admit it,why do we still have to scrutinize Srila Prabhupada.Most men that cant conceive of this fact are of emasculate or ignorant of the real female nature or both.

Same thing about the moon landing.Now it is almost common knowledge that it is a hoax.

Everything that Prabhupad said is the truth but we are yet to have it confirmed for ourselves the hard way.Our culture fosters disloyalty in families so we have obscene divorce rate.In relation to our parents most of us are disrespectful so it is realistic to expect that most will not be loyal to Srila Prabhupada. Giving him the benefit of the doubt about all that we find difficult to understand now is perhaps little something we can earnestly attempt to do.Just like my two children have to accept most of what I say as the fact because they are still young to understand some things so do we as the spiritual children of Srila Prabhupada must accept some things that we lack realization to be able to fully understand.

We are all brainwashed now to accept homosex as normal,black sudra basketball players and singers as idols,less intelligent women as equal etc.Look back 200 year when people still lived on the farms,when there was practically no divorce,when children were actually respectful of elders etc.I take it for granted that they had much better sense of reality that we do now(unless we accept Prabhupadas words as sacred and follow him unquestionably).So be it blacks are sudras,women are less intelligent and we are all mlechas.whats the big deal.Have we not eaten our steaks recently,have we not walked around with stool smeared all over our backsides?

My wife is intelligent enough to accept subordinate position so we have peace in the house and our children are respectful and obedient to us.They are also consequently respectful to all elders and they are bound to be happier in life that way.

I can understand this lack of loyalty that most westerners display toward Srila Prabhupada.Some are still more loyal to their rotten conditioning to even consider pondering reality as it is.

ys jd

Your link gives 403 error: access denied

> fantasies about being raped

Thats a fact. But in such danger they run (if they can).

> moon

Just recently I saw this collection of strange pics from Mars (comments in Czech):
http://www.kpufo.cz/portal/view.php?cisloclanku=2010073001

Disrespect to elders is one of the prominent chars of Kali yuga. Its Kalis divide and rule strategy, promoted by NWO elites.

"Children dont obey the orders of their parents. Anyone and everyone tries to write books. Its indubitable that the end of the world is near." (Assyrian tablet, cca 2800 BCE)

I encounter the same problem but when I google : "women like rape" that site comes first.It you cant get thru try clicking on cached.

Here are couple more links that further corroborate the fact that women are prone to get arousal from all sorts of things :

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m2372/is_1_45/ai_n24383385/

http://seedmagazine.com/content/article/girls_gone_wild_for_monkeys/

here is another relevant link:

http://www.thefrisky.com/post/246-why-independent-women-like-to-be-dominated/

[quote][cite] VEDA:[/cite]Thats a fact. But in such danger they run (if they can).[/quote]

Provided they wear clothes and shoes in which they can actually run ...[br][br]

[quote]Disrespect to elders is one of the prominent chars of Kali yuga. [/quote]

Mind you, in Kali yuga, many elders are not worthy of respect, since they behave like irresponsible teenagers.[br]

[img]http://www.bingo.org/assets/Uploads/_resampled/large-oldbingo.jpg[/img]

[quote][cite] jagannath:[/cite]Here are couple more links that further corroborate the fact that women are prone to get arousal from all sorts of things[/quote]

As if men arent ...

* jagannath:Here are couple more links that further corroborate the fact that women are prone to get arousal from all sorts of things

* Baker - As if men arent ...

Agree Baker and the worst of the lot are men who claim to be God servants.

lets stick with the topic,shall we?Srila Prabhupad clearly mentioned on many occasions how man are lusty too but here we are discussing his "sexist" remarks directed towards women and blacks.If someone finds it difficult to accept that the science clearly corroborates Srila Prabhupadas statements ,that concern falls under the "why do I have such a lack of faith in our Founder acharya?" section.

[quote][cite] Baker:[/cite][quote][cite] VEDA:[/cite]Thats a fact. But in such danger they run (if they can).[/quote]

Provided they wear clothes and shoes in which they can actually run ...[br][br]

[quote]Disrespect to elders is one of the prominent chars of Kali yuga. [/quote]

Mind you, in Kali yuga, many elders are not worthy of respect, since they behave like irresponsible teenagers.[br]

[img]http://www.bingo.org/assets/Uploads/_resampled/large-oldbingo.jpg[/img][/quote]

why not show respect to everyone and choose to take wisdom from the ones who warrant it by good example they exhibit such as Srila Prabhupada

Seem that the site is blocked by someone. But its in Archive:

http://web.archive.org/web/20080703032351/http://www.takeninhand.com/when.rape.is.a.gift

Hey Veda if you to the search for "taken in hand" the website will appear on the top.

[quote][cite] jagannath:[/cite]Srila Prabhupad clearly mentioned on many occasions how man are lusty too but here we are discussing his "sexist" remarks directed towards women and blacks.If someone finds it difficult to accept that the science clearly corroborates Srila Prabhupadas statements ,that concern falls under the "why do I have such a lack of faith in our Founder acharya?" section.[/quote]

I think it is more complex than that.[br][br]
Sexism and racism are loaded issues and talking about them in the wrong way can hurt those who listen or induce some listener to hurt others.[br]
I do not think it is so much about whether someone has faith in Srila Prabhupada (or the Vedic or Hindu culture) or not, but more about how to properly talk about things such as sexism and racism. One has to be knowledgeable and powerful to do so.[br][br]

just the other day I had a bunch of guests at my home for prasadam.they were all ladies from the neighborhood and my wife and I tried to stir the conversation in direction of piety.needles to say priming our good guests with prasadam did help a lot in that regard. after finding out that out of four ladies 3 were divorced(one of them remarried)and one was openly declared lesbian.After some questioning we found out that she spent a few years in all ladies boarding school and since attending there she became "lesbian".I was shocked to hear how this innocent lady got so badly mislead so I tried to do my best to induce her to consider trying to find a nice boy to live with.In course of doing that the other 3 ladies came out about how embarrassed they were to be divorced and how impious and unhappy their lives were because of it.

I was trying to be sensitive to their pain and ignorance but had I been too sensitive about stating that lesbianism and divorce are extremely impious and unfavorable situations to be in I would have not made any impact in trying to instill some piety and direction in their lives to start with.As a result the "lesbian" lady got herself a boyfriend few days later(she said that our discussion inspired her to make the change) and the other ladies left satisfied to hear that their lives are not as bleak as it seemed and there is some hope for them if they turn to God.If I was too timid there would have been no result whatsoever.No impact.I always try to think it terms of what would His Divine Grace Srila Prabhupad say and not what would some ambitious local politician say,if you know what I mean.I am not trying to be politically correct and it works all the time.Just because you think it to be complex Baker it doesnt make it so.

Srila Prabhupad said that preaching is easy if you repeat the words of previous acharyas ,so lets keep it that way.He even praised the preaching of a little 3 year old Sarasvati for her boldness and sincerity.Preaching is not so much question of propriety,power,charisma or knowledge-it is more question of sincere desire to help/serve the soul and the Lord by doing so.Krishna will carry what we lack anyway-if we try to surrender.

P.S.Sexism and racism are loaded issues.Leaded with potential for good preaching.I agree.We need not be powerful ourselves to repeat most benevolent and sensible words of our Jagat Guru Srila Prabhupada.