Pariprashnena — Q&A Archive

Sure, if you promise to not sin that takes care of your sins. However we are not (at least at Prabhupadas times we were not) obsessed with diksa, but with spreading the knowledge and mission of Krishna. Besides Uttama adhikari is a devotee who is defined by Prabhupada as: An uttama-adhikari is not interested in blaspheming others, his heart is completely clean, and he has attained the realized state of unalloyed Krsna consciousness.

It is not found often however he had said: When a neophyte devotee is actually initiated and engaged in devotional service by the orders of the spiritual master, he should be accepted immediately as a bona fide Vaisnava, and obeisances should be offered unto him. Out of many such Vaisnavas, one may be found to be very seriously engaged in the service of the Lord and strictly following all the regulative principles, chanting the prescribed number of rounds on japa beads and always thinking of how to expand the Krsna consciousness movement. Such a Vaisnava should be accepted as an uttama-adhikari, a highly advanced devotee, and his association should always be sought.

I just found a verse in Nitisastra:

Chapter 6, Verse 10. The king is obliged to accept the sins of his subjects; the purohit (priest) suffers for those of the king; a husband suffers for those of his wife; and the guru suffers for those of his pupils.
http://www.philosophy.ru/library/asiatica/indica/authors/kautilya/canakya_niti_sastra.html

An excellent article on this topic that answers many questions can be found here:

http://harmonist.us/2010/01/karma-and-sri-guru/

Some brief excerpts:

"Therefore, a fully qualified Vaishnava guru does not suffer from karma. If the guru has attained the stage of nistha (fixed devotion), hindrances resulting from good and bad karma are completely eradicated (purna-nivrtti), although there is still the minute possibility that anarthas arising from karma may reemerge. When he or she attains asakti, the last stage of sadhana bhakti wherein the mind is completely attached to Krishna, karmic impediments are absolutely eradicated (atyantiki- nivrtti). . . .

Although it is said that the guru takes the karma of the disciple, this means that the guru takes it away by engaging the disciple in sadhana bhakti and blessing him or her. Hearing and chanting about Krishna under the guidance of sri guru combined with the guru'92s grace destroys one'92s karma. Of the two, effort in sadhana and the grace of the guru, the latter is more important, linga bhuyastvat tad hi baliyah tad api (Vs. 3.3.45). Thus the guru must have the power to bless the student and engage him or her in sadhana bhakti. Such a qualified guru does not have to experience the karma of the students in a Christ-like fashion."

More details can be found in the above article.

Actually both Shila Prabhupada and Shrila Bhaktisiddhanta had said that they suffer due to taking too many neophyte disciples.

[quote][cite] ccd:[/cite]

It is not found often however he had said: When a neophyte devotee is actually initiated and engaged in devotional service by the orders of the spiritual master, he should be accepted immediately as a bona fide Vaisnava, and obeisances should be offered unto him. Out of many such Vaisnavas, one may be found to be very seriously engaged in the service of the Lord and strictly following all the regulative principles, chanting the prescribed number of rounds on japa beads and always thinking of how to expand the Krsna consciousness movement. Such a Vaisnava should be accepted as an uttama-adhikari, a highly advanced devotee, and his association should always be sought.[/quote]

When one is actually initiated by the bona fide spiritual master and when he seriously engages in the service of the Lord, he should be accepted as a madhyama-adhikuc0u257 ru299 . NOI Verse 5.

When one is ACTUALLY initiated.

When one has madhyama adi-kara he immediately qualifies for actual initiatin beyond formal ritualistic ceremonial initiation.

Neophyte disciples are actually initiated, otherwise why would guru suffer from accepting so many disciples? But they are still neophytes. On the other hand if one accepts a madhyamaadhikari as a sishya, one is not suffering so much because this sishya will propagate the message of Shee Mahaprabhu, and is His associate in samkirtan mission.

[quote][cite] borokrsnadasa:[/cite]Neophyte disciples are actually initiated.[/quote]
yes and no.

Sometimes Srila Prabhupada humbly spoke like this about himself, saying that he accepted too many unqualified disciples and had to suffer as a result. Certainly it was clear that he was disturbed by some of their activities. Yet if one scrutinizes his teaching, it also becomes clear that the karma of the disciple is gradually destroyed in proportion to his or her adherence to the guidelines of sri guru. Thus if the guru is qualified, the onus is on the disciples to follow sincerely. If they do so, the disciples will themselves become free from karma as they attain Krishna consciousness.

Srila Prabhupada states, '93An initiated devotee is given the chance for becoming free from the entanglement of karma wheel. Initiated means beginning, not perfection. The spiritual master'92s business is to guide him to the perfectional point. But if one does not strictly follow the guidance of a bona fide spiritual master, his initiation does not bear any meaning. The initiation performance is an agreement by the disciples to abide by the order of the spiritual master. Therefore, if the spiritual master is bona fide and the disciple is serious to abide by his order, then the success is sure. But if a disciple follows strictly the devotional way of life, he is no longer a karmi and all his activities, which may appear to be like ordinary work, or it may be activity according to scriptural injunction, are counted as devotional service. And devotional service in all circumstances is free from the actions and reactions of karma.'94

[quote][cite] anandahari:[/cite][quote][cite] borokrsnadasa:[/cite]Neophyte disciples are actually initiated.[/quote]
yes and no.[/quote]
the difference been in that the Madhyama has at last awoken an actual seed of love(Prema) in his heart for Shi Guru,not by practice but by a moment of Self-surrender within himself that is also natural to the self,atma-nivedanam.
This is his actual initiation,real initiation within the heart.The path of perfection and the perfect escape.
This is bhakti-yoga,u dont have to do anything,it is already done for u,u just have to surrender..

This is preliminary spontaneity.The Kanasha knows no such spontaneity,although he can experience a reflection of such real spontaneous love by the mercy of Sri guru and Gauranga though his own practice in Sadhana bhakti within pantriarka marga.This nama-abhasa and he is bhakta-abhasa.therefore he is completely dependent on the mercy of madyama vaisnava and Uttama Vaisnava. he is vaisnava-priya.If he is offensive aparadhi he is then denigrated to demon in the guise of devotee.then he must be neglected.
this is the madhtama adi-kara platform.
THIS IS BHAGAVAT MARGA.
This is Aryan Ascendency.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_FWb8KfSEO4

Here is beautiful song which reflects His Divine Grace Srila Prabhupadas reciprocated love for us.A love rarely found.
jaya Srila Prabhupada.Our spiritual master,Sri Guru Acharya.Sri Nityanada-Ramas Divine Mercy Manifestation.
hari bola!

Bhaktivinoda Thakur has some good quotes from Sri Tattra Sutram. He states:

"Spiritual ordinances are intended for the regulation of the ignorant human beings whereas those who are endowed with discretion and divine wisdom are not controlled by them'85since knowledge itself is the root of the scriptures the one who has attained that self-evident knowledge will not be ruled by the scriptures, but they guide him with advices. In case of ignorant people, this is not so. They must be governed by the rules of the scriptures for their upliftment'85

Devotees of the supreme Lord are not controlled by the scriptures since their activities are congenial to the divine wisdom'85Therefore, when the self realized devotees ordain any new arrangement, they should be agreed with as a religious code, even if such new arrangements are not found in the spiritual dictums of the previous sages." (191-204)