Pariprashnena — Q&A Archive

I think this is an important question. I dont know any direct scriptural references, but I can think of some possible inferences.

For one, given that each soul has a unique relationship with God, the nature of the souls envy toward God could be specific for their relationship. For example, the intentions and actions of a resistant servant are different from those of a resistant friend, parent or lover.

Secondly, if we consider how people usually treat eachother and other living beings - just think of a PETA video - that is hatred for God via hatred for His parts and parcels.

Thirdly, everyone serves someone gladly enough, but people usually have a limit in how far they are willing to go, they sooner or later tend to say "I have done enough service." Ie., they want to have the say in how much service is enough.

Wanting to be Him.

Lord Krishna is so nice, His pastimes are so nice, His devotees are so nice, His Vrindaban dhama is so nice, His relationship is so nice. His name is so nice. His food remnents are so nice. His festivals are so nice. His philosophy is so nice.

How is it possible that we were in personal relationship with Him then became envious of Him? If that were true, what is the point of trying to go to Him again, if there is something missing or defective. Therefore, logically and according to many statements of shastra, we have never been with Him personally; we emanated from Him, then desired to enjoy and control like Him. Since God is one, we had to fullfull these desires separate from Him and were immediately offered this world of illusion to play in. We may be envious, but He is never envious of anyone, therefore, surrender unto His lotus feet and depending on the causeless mercy of His pure devotee, Srila Prabhupada, is the safest, easiest and quickest path to our souls real life. We are eternally servants, its our nature. By Mayas hard lessons and Srila Prabhupadas mercy, we now know we have two options: Sri Krishna or Maya (merging is included as it is also illusion). Sri Krishna is non-envious, He forgives us, let us forgive ourselves and move forward as little as we are able to, with faith and trust in Them. Hare Krishna. Jai Srila Prabhupada1

Today i heard Srila Prabhupada say that we want to predominate but Sri Krishna is the only predominator and we are to be predominated by Him.

Srila Prabhupada ki jaya!

Upadeshamrta, sloka 7 gives a clue.

Purport: "...a person with jaundice considers something sweet to taste very bitter."

I wonder how come there arent more replies on this topic / in this thread.

In Mormon doctrine, they have some succint statements on the matter:

"The natural man is an enemy to God":

[A natural man is a] person who chooses to be influenced by the passions, desires, appetites, and senses of the flesh rather than by the promptings of the Holy Spirit. Such a person can comprehend physical things but not spiritual things. All people are carnal, or mortal, because of the fall of Adam and Eve. Each person must be born again through the atonement of Jesus Christ to cease being a natural man.
The natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit, 1 Cor. 2: 14. The natural man is an enemy to God and should be put off, Mosiah 3: 19. He that persists in his own carnal nature remaineth in his fallen state, Mosiah 16: 5 (Alma 42: 7-24; D&C 20: 20). What natural man is there that knoweth these things? Alma 26: 19-22. Natural or carnal men are without God in the world, Alma 41: 11. Because of his transgression, man became spiritually dead, D&C 29: 41. Neither can any natural man abide the presence of God, D&C 67: 12. And man began to be carnal, sensual, and devilish, Moses 5: 13 (Moses 6: 49).
http://scriptures.lds.org/gs/n/8

Now compare it to GV approach:

'93Krishna and Arjuna sat in the same chariot,'94 he tells us. '93But Arjuna knew that Krishna is the Supreme. We are also in a kind of chariot with Krishna. That chariot is this material body, and within the heart Lord Krishna is present as the Supersoul, witnessing all our activities. Even though He accompanies us within the material world, Krishna is never attached. He does not act out of need because He has no desires. He is Paramatma, the Supersoul, and we are jiva-atma, the individual fragmental souls. In the Upanishads, these are compared to two birds sitting in the same tree, the tree of the body. One bird, jiva-atma, is enjoying the fruits of the tree, while the other bird, Paramatma, just sits and watches. These two birds have an eternal transcendental loving relationship, but the one bird has become so absorbed in enjoying the tree'92s fruits that he has forgotten his Friend. This forgetfulness of Krishna is called maya. Still, His love for us is so great that whenever we transmigrate from one body to another, Krishna goes with us to see what we are doing. He is simply waiting for us to turn our face toward Him. As soon as we turn our face toward Krishna, He says, '91My dear son, come on. You are eternally dear to Me. Now you are turning your face to Me, so I am very glad.'92 (The Hare Krishna Explosion 1.4 by Hayagriva das)

[quote][cite] VEDA:[/cite]The opposite approaches - jiva as the enemy of God vs. the friend of God.[/quote]

The Mormon scripture says only that the natural man (ie. the man under the influence of maya) is an enemy of God.[br][br]
I dont recall Christian scriptures saying much about the original relationship between God and the individual souls (although in Mormonism, they address this a bit, basically saying that all was well, and then we chose to desert God and chose to be born into material bodies).[br][br]

Consider that Suhotra Swami calls us "criminals" (http://www.suhotraswami.net/library/Falldown.php), and as far as I can tell, he means this in reference to our original position. I dont know whether he meant "criminals" specifically in the context of providing a rebuttal for all those who argue that the Fall was "unfair, due to a gush of feelings", or whether he would reply in the same manner to whatever question about the Fall there may be.[br][br]
I am also not sure how exactly Srila Prabhupada meant that we "hate Krishna".[br][br]
But suffice to say, there is some hate-speech of this kind even in GV, not just in Christianity.

I am not sure what you wish to point out with this comparison -?

The opposite approaches - jiva as the enemy of God vs. the friend of God.

Interesting enough Srila Prabhupada told one of my siksa gurus to learn how to be simply governed by guru and krishna....when he was a senior sannyasi disciple and manager of Sri dharma mayapura,another sannyasi godbrother ...he was told simply take this service [same service,,,,managing the dharma ] and enjoy it !
Hence we have different mentalities ,even the nature of our envy and aversion of Krishna is individual ....at different levels,guru means expert at analysis to suggest the appropriate cure in the form of service and encouragement or chastisement!

I think Hate is too strong of a word. I used it for a reason, but there is a demoniac mentality in most of the fallen souls, envy or enmity of God. In fact as soon as you give it up, you are self-realized, but it takes some practice, and since I am not perfect myself, it is rather difficult to describe Baker.

Criminal mentality refers to our turning away from the Lord, trying to be independent of Him. Yet He considers us always His friends. Theres no contradiction in these two positions.

How can we consider ourselves to be (eligible to be) Gods friends, after we have turned away from Him?

How does God consider us His friends, if we are His servants?

How can we consider ourselves Gods friends, if we are His servants?

We can see ourselves as ungrateful friends who should repair our relationship with the Lord. Bhakti yoga is the process to achieve it.
Our service is in five main rasas which are various moods or flavors of love. Therefore servant and friend are not exclusive.

I have difficulty understanding how a relationship can be repaired. I have never experienced such a reparation.
If I have done something wrong and asked forgiveness, I received it, but after that, the relationship soon ended or was reset to strictly diplomatic terms. It never went "back to normal" or retained any semblance of the previous intimacy.

Why would it be any different with God?

I can tell myself that the relationship with God is different than all others - but that doesnt yet give me faith or inspiration that all will be well or that God would take me back or that the thus revived relationship would be something to aspire for.

Repaired means restored to the previous situation. Its not always possible in relationships among conditioned humans, as you mention.
We learn about Krsna to understand His nature as far as we can. Examples of other sucessful devotees are proof and encouragement.
Faith is gained by devotee sangha, the more advanced the better. Relationship is revealed gradually, as we progress.

All forms of incompleteness are experienced due to incomplete knowledge of the Complete Whole. (from Srila Prabhupadas purport to Sri Isopanisads Invocation Mantra)

Letter to: Bhargava
Los Angeles
13 June, 1972
72-06-13

New York
My Dear Bhargava,
Please accept my blessings. I am in receipt of your letter dated May 31,
1972, and I have noted the contents. Our advancement in Krishna
Consciousness is made possible in two ways, by Knowledge and renunciation,
jnana and tyaga or tapasya. The more we become renounced from this material
world, the more we advance in Krishna Consciousness. But we are only able to
make such sacrifices and perform tapasya if we have got knowledge. So first
thing is to become knowledgeable in Krishna Consciousness, then the tapasya
or voluntary life of austerity will result automatically. So I am requesting
all of my students to read my books very seriously every day without fail.
In this way, if your mind becomes absorbed at least one or two hours daily
in the transcendental subject matter of Srimad-Bhagavatam, Bhagavad-gita,
and other books then very easily you will make your advancement in Krishna
Consciousness. It is not a matter of changing our engagement, adjusting this
or that material condition, in order to find our real happiness. Krishna
Consciousness is not like that. It is able to be performed under any variety
of material conditions or with any type of engagement. Therefore if your
duty as a photographer is very much helpful to our propanganda work and for
improving our BTG then there is very much need for your remaining in that
occupation and doing it to your best capacity. It is a fallacy to say that
my present engagement with the press is not the best for my spiritual
advancement, and if we think in this way we may go on trying out one
engagement after another and always say the same excuse. This restlessness
or agitation of the mind cannot be rectified by altering the material
circumstances. If we are Krishna Conscious, any type of occupation will suit
me and we shall always be satisfied. Therefore, I recommend you to read
books more and more and try to understand the subject matter from different
angles of vision and be always discussing it with your godbrothers even
while you are working at the press, and when you are working and you cannot
read, then listen to the tapes of my lectures and hear in that way. And
never neglect to chant your 16 rounds of beads daily, rise early without
fail, attend mangal arati, take bath, and follow the other regulative
principles, and everything will come out very successfully, you can rest
assured of that.
I am feeling the tendency more and more to retire behind the scenes for
translating work, and I want to turn over the management of everything to
the GBC and other senior leaders amongst my disciples, so if you have in
future any more matters for discussing you may assist me in training these
leaders and managers by placing your questions before them. I think Rupanuga
will be able to answer all of your questions satisfactorily, so you can be
confident that he is giving you all good advice.
Hoping this will meet you in good health,
Your ever well-wisher,
A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami
ACBS/sda

>It never went "back to normal" or retained any semblance of the previous intimacy.

>Why would it be any different with God?

I am not disputing what have been typed by Shyamasundara prabhu and signed by Prabhupada. I am however not sure how it is relevant, which is probably my limitation.

I do however think that the question is relevant. And the answer is -- yes, you can not repair this relationship on your own. The truth is it is Krishna who is interested in repairing this relationship more than you do yourself, due to his quality of daya or karuna. He is taking 10 steps towards you when you take one towards Him. He can not force you to do that step, but He is sure to reciprocate if you continue making the steps that are not motivated by selfishness. But even more to that is that you can not repair this relationship to the original mood, and thus you should, upon purification, take shelter of his nitya-siddha ragatmika devotee, who will grant you that intimacy, you would otherwise never regain, by the media and via the mercy of your guru and Srila Prabhupada.

I am not sure what Veda intended to point out by posting that.[br][br]

But something caught my attention:[br][br]

"So first thing is to become knowledgeable in Krishna Consciousness, then the tapasya or voluntary life of austerity will result automatically."[br][br]

I presume this suggests that one shouldnt force oneself into austerity, or otherwise try to take full control over ones devotional activities, thinking "I will perform these austerities, and then I will become Krishna conscious, it is all up to me" -?[br][br]

A while back, I read an interesting article that made me aware of this issue. It is about emotional eating, but the reasoning applies to many other areas as well. Ill post a bit more, to provide the context:[br][br]

"... In 1978, when I was eating 150 calories a day and weighed eighty pounds, no one knew to call it anorexia. Later, when I began eating twenty thousand calories a day and ballooned up to 160 pounds, no one knew to call it compulsive eating. We didnt have those labels then, and, though they are helpful, the names themselves - even this new one, orthorexia nervosa - give us the illusion that we can get the upper hand; that we can deal with it. But perhaps this illusion itself is an illness, and everyones got it. Its called believing we can control the future by what we eat, or weigh, or accomplish now. [b]The alternative - understanding that we are not in charge - is utterly humbling and leaves us unbearably vulnerable.[/b][br][br]

A month ago, my car was the last vehicle in a nine-car pileup on the freeway. Though I wasnt hurt, I was shaken up for weeks. Id been cruising along in the left lane with my usual feeling of immortality, on my way to a meeting, making plans for dinner, and tomorrow, and next week, when suddenly the car in front of me came to a dead halt. One moment I knew how the day was going to unfold, and the next I didnt. I saw that, no matter what I ate for breakfast or how kind or thin or generous I was, I could die at any moment.[br][br]

Coming up against the edge is terifying, which is why most of us dont do it until an accident, an illness, a death, or some other disaster wakes us up from the dreamy haze of believing that were in charge.[b] But the fragility that follows our awakening is so tender and so contrary to the cultural myth that we cover it quickly with vigorous new exercise programs, new strategies to purify ourselves, and lifestyle changes that foster the illusion of once again being in control of our fate.[/b]
..."[br]
http://www.geneenroth.com/articles/SunArticle0001.pdf[br][br]

This is me to a T - coming up with vigorous new exercise programs of all kinds, including for devotional activities, while underneath all that control-freakery, I feel so vulnerable that the slightest breeze could sweep me away.[br][br]

I have to say I miss the sort of discernment and concern as in the above article when it comes to devotees. Devotees mostly strike me as speaking in a much heavier tone - too heavy for my comfort for the most part. Often, I just end up feeling afraid from their preaching, and try to conceal or deny the fear and vulnerability.

I posted it since it gives a nice rundown of bhaktiyoga.

> Coming up against the edge is terifying, which is why most of us dont do it until an accident, an illness, a death, or some other disaster wakes us up from the dreamy haze of believing that were in charge. But the fragility that follows our awakening is so tender and so contrary to the cultural myth that we cover it quickly with vigorous new exercise programs, new strategies to purify ourselves, and lifestyle changes that foster the illusion of once again being in control of our fate. ..."

Yes. These are the same people who will come up with I dont have time to read SP books or similar excuses. So theyll have to learn the hard way. One cant escape this lesson in the material world.

Fear arises when a living entity misidentifies himself as the material body because of absorption in the external, illusory energy of the Lord. When the living entity thus turns away from the Supreme Lord, he also forgets his own constitutional position as a servant of the Lord. This bewildering, fearful condition is effected by the potency for illusion, called maya. Therefore, an intelligent person should engage unflinchingly in the unalloyed devotional service of the Lord, under the guidance of a bona fide spiritual master, whom he should accept as his worshipable deity and as his very life and soul. (SB 11.2.37)

My point is that it is possible to engage in a strenuous regimen of spiritual practice (" ") as a distraction from ones "real problems".
It is possible to keep reading scriptures, reading sentences like "Krishna consciousness is the only solution to all of lifes problems", while in the back of ones mind, one thinks "Things will never get better for me, things will never get better for me, I need this distraction so that I wont have to think how bad and hopeless my life really is, so I will read this book / chant, but I dont think it will actually help me."

To such a person, chanting, studying scriptures etc. is no different than alcohol is to an alcoholic. Telling such a person to "read Srila Prabhupadas books" is the same as telling an alcoholic that they should drink more alcohol - neither actually believes the proposed solution will help, and both are profoundly miserable.

I have recently learned there is something called "religious addiction" - where a person has an addictive attitude toward religion/spirituality, in effect using religion/spirituality to avoid the aim of religion/spirituality.
This phenomenon has received some attention in the Christian community, for example: http://www.spiritualabuse.com/?page_id=46
or
http://books.google.com/books?id=sqOc6IZ65X8C&printsec=frontcover&dq=linn+religious+addiction&source=bl&ots=aXVWOd8sra&sig=kZMqULt0qpZVm3HZ66p2kITYjyo&hl=en&ei=BB1RTMfRG4WnOPuewNUH&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2&ved=0CAsQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q&f=false

In Vaisnava literature, so far as I have seen, the issue seems to be glossed over, referring to such people as "fundamentalists", "official meditators", "professional recitators of scripture" or "atheists pretending to be theists".
On the whole, I didnt get the impression that devotees are willing (or able) to help those people.

One has to analyze those real problems and understand their KC solutions gained by reading SP books. If one a priori thinks KC is opium for the masses and avoids all good instructions, then this is a lack of intelligence. Causes need to be pinpointed: dogmatic abusive upbringing, atheistic or sectarian brainwashing, drugs destroying intelligence, possession (in rare cases), etc.

Solutions: prasadam and possibly some professional psycho help

I cant think of any example for this "religious addiction" phenomena in sastra. Seems like one of the blessings of Kali yuga.

Some devotees are trained psychologists.

yes well spoken veda prabhu ...opium of the masses...never tried it but krishna is the supreme cheater and the supreme freind simultaniously...even perfectly!