What is the difficulty?
Philosophy · asked by user [] · 2010-07-22 · 5 answers
Elsewhere, this was stated, and this same reasoning is often given by devotees:[br][br]
[quote][cite] sitapati:[/cite]You have to accept Krishnas process by which he can be known. Thats all. It is completely possible to directly experience the existence of God, just as you can directly experience your hunger and its satiation when you eat. You follow the process that Krishna gives, and you get direct perception of the Supreme Personality of Godhead.
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What is the difficulty?[/quote]
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The difficulty is in knowing what exactly is the process that Krishna gives. How can one know that what some people claim to be "Krishnas instructions", indeed are Krishnas instructions?[br][br]
"Follow the process that Krishna gives, and you get direct perception of the Supreme Personality of Godhead" of course makes sense logically, but a person who is not sure what are Krishnas instructions are what are not Krishnas instructions cannot apply that reasoning, however logical it may be.[br]To be able to apply that reasoning one already needs to know what indeed are Krishnas instructions are what are not Krishnas instructions.[br]
This is the difficulty.[br][br]
How do devotees suggest to resolve it?[br][br]
To accept in blind faith that what the Bhagavad-gita says, indeed is from and about Krishna?[br][br]
Thank you for your replies.
[quote][cite] sitapati:[/cite]You have to accept Krishnas process by which he can be known. Thats all. It is completely possible to directly experience the existence of God, just as you can directly experience your hunger and its satiation when you eat. You follow the process that Krishna gives, and you get direct perception of the Supreme Personality of Godhead.
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What is the difficulty?[/quote]
[br][br]
The difficulty is in knowing what exactly is the process that Krishna gives. How can one know that what some people claim to be "Krishnas instructions", indeed are Krishnas instructions?[br][br]
"Follow the process that Krishna gives, and you get direct perception of the Supreme Personality of Godhead" of course makes sense logically, but a person who is not sure what are Krishnas instructions are what are not Krishnas instructions cannot apply that reasoning, however logical it may be.[br]To be able to apply that reasoning one already needs to know what indeed are Krishnas instructions are what are not Krishnas instructions.[br]
This is the difficulty.[br][br]
How do devotees suggest to resolve it?[br][br]
To accept in blind faith that what the Bhagavad-gita says, indeed is from and about Krishna?[br][br]
Thank you for your replies.
user [38] · 2010-07-23
We must have discussed this before so just shortly:BG is supported and expanded in SBs Uddhava gita, Vedanta sutra, Upanisads, etc.
Personal qualities and realizations of members of guru parampara are the warranty that the transferred siksa is genuine.
When siksa is applied the results can be directly verified in due course of time as per the honey and a honeypot analogy.
user [447] · 2010-07-23
Here is an excerpt from a book I am reading; it is a line of reasoning that can often be encountered by theists of different traditions:"Are you like Naaman [from 2 Kings 5; Naaman was a powerful general who had leprosy and was seeking healing for it]? Are you unwilling to try what God has laid out for you as the path toward healing? Do you think you deserve a better plan? Do you have a plan of your own that you wish God would adopt? If Naaman had continued to demand his own way and refused to try Gods way, he would have missed the healing God had for him. It was for him to choose or refuse."
What is "Gods way"? How can a person in advance know what is Gods way?
A person can be endlessly criticized for their failings, simply by claiming they didnt do things Gods way. I suppose this makes the critic feel good, but it doesnt necessarily help the person who has failed, because they still cannot discern what is Gods way and what is their own way.
How did Sitapati and so many others, long before they were Krishna conscious, know they are indeed applying instructions from Krishna?
>> BG is supported and expanded in SBs Uddhava gita, Vedanta sutra, Upanisads, etc.
But then those sources need to be accepted in blind faith.
>> Personal qualities and realizations of members of guru parampara are the warranty that the transferred siksa is genuine.
How does this help the person who has no realization?
If I dont have realization, I am unable to tell whether someone has realization or not. Someone could put an ass before me and claim the animal is enlightened, but I couldnt know, given that I do not have realization.
>> When siksa is applied the results can be directly verified in due course of time as per the honey and a honeypot analogy.
If no results are visible after more than two years, what does that mean?
That the person hasnt applied themselves enough?
That the siksa was wrong?
user [38] · 2010-07-23
Many devotees have the experience that when they surrenderred in their heart to the Lord, things got moving and a new path opened, later understood to be the Gods path. When one then surrenders to the physical guru, he tells him right away. (Krsna gives guru and guru gives Krsna.)Not blind faith, lots of the siksa can be verified and positive results boost the faith.
At the beginning one needs at least this realization/desire: I want to get to know about my relationship with the Lord and how I can serve Him. Then the Lord arranges what is needed. This is a common experience of many.
Before that one usually does some research on ones own, learning various things from various persons, gradually getting more and more clear idea about higher reality. This is a jnana level and often takes lifetimes.
You can ask the ass (or anyone) about spiritual knowledge, apply it and see if it gets you anywhere.
As I already said, there can be various reasons, not just those two most obvious ones. Strong karmic conditioning from the past life, incomplete or misunderstood sambandha jnana, aparadhas, etc.
In the specific case of bhakti yoga we can rule out the inefficiency of the process since it worked and works for tons of devotees even before they accept physical diksa guru.
How many and which persons testified that someone has no realizations, that he didnt change in the least within those two years of trying to do something spiritual?
user [447] · 2010-07-25
[quote][cite] VEDA:[/cite]At the beginning one needs at least this realization/desire: I want to get to know about my relationship with the Lord and how I can serve Him.[/quote]I cant say I have that realization/desire, and just the thought of it makes me anxious.
Ive grown up with the notion that being religious/spiritual is like building a pyramid: What matters is that the pyramid gets build, it doesnt matter if it costs many people their lives. Chanting, stuyding scriptures etc. are like shaping building blocks and carrying them to place, this is what matters, the person who does that is irrelevant.
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[quote]How many and which persons testified that someone has no realizations, that he didnt change in the least within those two years of trying to do something spiritual?[/quote]
You can see for yourself that in this past year I have made no progress.
user [38] · 2010-07-25
This is the beehive/disposable mentality found in totalitarian systems incompatible with neither Christianity nor Vaisnavism. The persons recovery of svarupa is the goal of his spiritual practices, not that he is to be sacrificed to some common supergoal.I wouldnt be so skeptical. You must have learned lots of things.