Pariprashnena — Q&A Archive

SB 11.12.20 says pretty much the same. Avyakta refers to aprakata lila.

I think Romapada Swami has a useful response:

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Question 2: Is it possible to defeat impersonalism once and for all? I am told (by Vaishnavas) that the impersonalists will also have strong arguments for defeating personalism. So, how will I know what the Absolute Truth is?

Answer: Actually one who is a true knower of Truth understands that both the impersonal and personal are features of the same, non-dual Absolute. This is stated in Srimad Bhagavatam (SB 1.2.11 www.vedabase.net/sb/1/2/11/en). And Krishna states that He is the basis of the impersonal Brahman. (BG 14.27) Thus there is no real conflict between those searching after Brahman realization and those seeking to worship Bhagavan.

http://www.romapadaswami.com/?q=node/2708

> Thus there is no real conflict between those searching after Brahman realization and those seeking to worship Bhagavan.

There may not be a conflict in abhidheya but theres a definite conflict in prayojana.

Once I discussed with an impersonalist on Beliefnet who tried to make Sri Caitanya into an impersonalist [sic] by calling His Siksastaka a prayer for moksa. I pointed out that He wants Krsna bhakti life after life (mama janmani janmanIZvare bhavatAd bhaktir ahaitukI tvayi).
Ahaituki bhakti means bhakti without a cause (hetu). Thus He rejects bhakti as a mere tool for achieving impersonal moksa.
That was the end of the discussion.

Hare Krishna. All glories to Srila Prabhupada,
Nice reply, Veda

Is Saint Tukarama describing the individual souls? As for the unmanifested becoming manifested, in a sense this is right. The soul who is merged in the Brahman, when he is fortunate, comes into this world, gets a body. It is from this platform that he can become promoted to spiritual lila and seva after he tires of sturggling with material nature and obtains service of Sri Guru.

Canto 3: "The Status Quo"
SB 3.29: Explanation of Devotional Service by Lord Kapila
SB 3.29.13



TEXT 13


salokya-sarsti-samipya-

sarupyaikatvam apy uta

diyamanam na grhnanti

vina mat-sevanam janah

SYNONYMS

salokya'97living on the same planet; sarsti'97having the same opulence; samipya'97to be a personal associate; sarupya'97having the same bodily features; ekatvam'97oneness; api'97also; uta'97even; diyamanam'97being offered; na'97not; grhnanti'97do accept; vina'97without; mat'97My; sevanam'97devotional service; janah'97pure devotees.


A pure devotee does not accept any kind of liberation'97salokya, sarsti, samipya, sarupya or ekatva'97even though they are offered by the Supreme Personality of Godhead.


Lord Caitanya teaches us how to execute pure devotional service out of spontaneous love for the Supreme Personality of Godhead. In the Siksastaka, He prays to the Lord: '93O Lord, I do not wish to gain from You any wealth, nor do I wish to have a beautiful wife, nor do I wish to have many followers. All I want from You is that in life after life I may remain a pure devotee at Your lotus feet.'94 There is a similarity between the prayers of Lord Caitanya and the statements of Srimad-Bhagavatam. Lord Caitanya prays, '93in life after life,'94 indicating that a devotee does not even desire the cessation of birth and death. The yogis and empiric philosophers desire cessation of the process of birth and death, but a devotee is satisfied to remain even in this material world and execute devotional service.

It is clearly stated herein that a pure devotee does not desire ekatva, oneness with the Supreme Lord, as desired by the impersonalists, the mental speculators and the meditators. To become one with the Supreme Lord is beyond the dream of a pure devotee. Sometimes he may accept promotion to the Vaikuntha planets to serve the Lord there, but he will never accept merging into the Brahman effulgence, which he considers worse than hellish. Such ekatva, or merging into the effulgence of the Supreme Lord, is called kaivalya, but the happiness derived from kaivalya is considered by the pure devotee to be hellish. The devotee is so fond of rendering service to the Supreme Lord that the five kinds of liberation are not important to him. If one is engaged in pure transcendental loving service to the Lord, it is understood that he has already achieved the five kinds of liberation.

When a devotee is promoted to the spiritual world, Vaikuntha, he receives four kinds of facilities. One of these is salokya, living on the same planet as the Supreme Personality. The Supreme Person, in His different plenary expansions, lives on innumerable Vaikuntha planets, and the chief planet is Krsnaloka. Just as within the material universe the chief planet is the sun, in the spiritual world the chief planet is Krsnaloka. From Krsnaloka, the bodily effulgence of Lord Krsna is distributed not only to the spiritual world but to the material world as well; it is covered by matter, however, in the material world. In the spiritual world there are innumerable Vaikuntha planets, and on each one the Lord is the predominating Deity. A devotee can be promoted to one such Vaikuntha planet to live with the Supreme Personality of Godhead.

In sarsti liberation the opulence of the devotee is equal to the opulence of the Supreme Lord. Samipya means to be a personal associate of the Supreme Lord. In sarupya liberation the bodily features of the devotee are exactly like those of the Supreme Person but for two or three symptoms found exclusively on the transcendental body of the Lord. Srivatsa, for example, the hair on the chest of the Lord, particularly distinguishes Him from His devotees.

A pure devotee does not accept these five kinds of spiritual existence, even if they are offered, and he certainly does not hanker after material benefits, which are all insignificant in comparison with spiritual benefits. When Prahlada Maharaja was offered some material benefit, he stated: '93My Lord, I have seen that my father achieved all kinds of material benefits, and even the demigods were afraid of his opulence, but still, in a second, You have finished his life and all his material prosperity.'94 For a devotee there is no question of desiring any material or spiritual prosperity. He simply aspires to serve the Lord. That is his highest happiness.

Rompada swami is obviously not in agreement with his spiritual master when he states such things.Srila Prabhupada was vehemently oposed to impersonalism and their proponents because they have contaminated the entire world with their atheistic ideas.

[quote][cite] Baker:[/cite]I think Romapada Swami has a useful response:

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Question 2: Is it possible to defeat impersonalism once and for all? I am told (by Vaishnavas) that the impersonalists will also have strong arguments for defeating personalism. So, how will I know what the Absolute Truth is?

Answer: Actually one who is a true knower of Truth understands that both the impersonal and personal are features of the same, non-dual Absolute. This is stated in Srimad Bhagavatam (SB 1.2.11 www.vedabase.net/sb/1/2/11/en). And Krishna states that He is the basis of the impersonal Brahman. (BG 14.27) Thus there is no real conflict between those searching after Brahman realization and those seeking to worship Bhagavan.

http://www.romapadaswami.com/?q=node/2708[/quote]

Books : The Path of Perfection : PoP 10: The Path of Perfection :
Therefore when Lord Kuc0u7771 u7779 u7751 a says that there is a supreme abode and that we can go there, we should have faith that such an abode exists. Many philosophers think that the spiritual abode is impersonal or void. Impersonalists like the u346 au7749 karites and Buddhists generally speak of the void or emptiness, but Bhagavad-gu299 tu257 does not disappoint us in this way. The philosophy of voidism has simply created atheism, because it is the nature of the living entity to want enjoyment. As soon as he thinks that his future is void, he will try to enjoy the variegatedness of this material life. Thus impersonalism leads to armchair philosophical discussions and attachment to material enjoyment. We may enjoy speculating, but no real spiritual benefit can be derived from such speculation.


Lectures : Bhagavad-gita Lectures : Bg 8: Lectures : Bhagavad-gita 8.21-22 -- New York, November 19, 1966 : 661119BG.NY :
So we want enjoyment, but this atheism or this voidness, this impersonalism, they have created such an atmosphere that we are simply speculating, but we are addicted to these material enjoyments. That is not the process. Here it is said, puruu7779 au7717 sa parau7717 pu257 rtha bhaktyu257 labhyas tv ananyayu257 . If you accept this principle of Ku7771 u7779 u7751 a consciousness, the devotional path, and if you worship that Supreme Personality of Godhead, then you can have the spiritual realization and you prepare yourself and you become detached from this material enjoyment. Your life becomes sublime. Oh. That is the process of Ku7771 u7779 u7751 a consciousness. Puruu7779 a. Here it is clearly said, puruu7779 a, puruu7779 a, the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Puruu7779 au7717 sa parau7717 . Parau7717 means Supreme. Parau7717 : "O My dear Arjuna, that in that spiritual atmosphere, there is the Supreme Personality." Hes a person just like you and me. Just we have got talking face to face, when youll reach there youll talk face to face with God. Youll play, youll eat, everything. Puruu7779 au7717 sa parau7717 pu257 rtha.


Lectures : Philosophy Discussions : Discussions with Hayagriva dasa : Soren Aabye Kierkegaard : KIERKEGAARD.HAY :
A living entity is eternally an individual soul, and if he wants to merge into the spiritual whole, he may accomplish the realization of the eternal and knowledgeable aspects of his original nature, but the blissful portion is not realized. By the grace of some devotee, such a transcendentalist, highly learned in the process of j'f1u257 na-yoga, may come to the point of bhakti-yoga, or devotional service. At that time, long practice in impersonalism also becomes a source of trouble, because he cannot give up the idea. Therefore an embodied soul is always in difficulty with the unmanifest, both at the time of practice and at the time of realization. Every living soul is partially independant, and one should know for certain that this unmanifested realization is against the nature of his spiritual blissful self. One should not take up this process. For every individual living entity the process of Ku7771 u7779 u7751 a consciousness, which entails full engagement in devotional service, is the best way. If one wants to ignore this devotional service, there is the danger of turning to atheism. Thus this process of centering attention on the unmanifested, the inconceivable, which is beyond the approach of the senses, as already expressed in this verse, should never be encouraged at any time, especially in this age. It is not advised by Lord Ku7771 u7779 u7751 a.

Have in mind that most of the Saint Tukarams abhangas are translated by the people contaminated by impersonalism and voidism.

Books : Sri Caitanya-caritamrta - 1975 Edition : Cc. Madhya-lila : Madhya 6: The Liberation of Sarvabhauma Bhattacarya : Madhya 6.168 : PURPORT :
Although the Buddhists are directly opposed to Vaiuc0u7779 u7751 ava philosophy, it can easily be understood that the u346 au7749 karites are more dangerous because they accept the authority of the Vedas yet act contrary to Vedic instruction. Vedu257 u347 raya nu257 stikya-vu257 da means "agnosticism under the shelter of Vedic culture" and refers to the monistic philosophy of the Mu257 yu257 vu257 du299 s. Lord Buddha abandoned the authority of the Vedic literature and therefore rejected the ritualistic ceremonies and sacrifices recommended in the Vedas. His nirvu257 u7751 a philosophy means stopping all material activities. Lord Buddha did not recognize the presence of transcendental forms and spiritual activities beyond the material world. He simply described voidism beyond this material existence. The Mu257 yu257 vu257 du299 philosophers offer lip service to Vedic authority but try to escape the Vedic ritualistic ceremonies. They concoct some idea of a transcendental position and call themselves Nu257 ru257 yau7751 a, or God. However, Gods position is completely different from their concoction. Such Mu257 yu257 vu257 du299 philosophers consider themselves above the influence of karma-ku257 u7751 u7693 a (fruitive activities and their reactions). For them, the spiritual world is equated with the Buddhist voidism. There is very little difference between impersonalism and voidism. Voidism can be directly understood, but the impersonalism enunciated by Mu257 yu257 vu257 du299 philosophers is not very easily understandable. Of course, Mu257 yu257 vu257 du299 philosophers accept a spiritual existence, but they do not know about the spiritual world and spiritual beings. According to u346 ru299 mad-Bhu257 gavatam (10.2.32):

Letters : 1970 Correspondence : February : Letter to: Mandali Bhadra -- Los Angeles 3 February, 1970 : 70-02-03 :
In India, especially in Bengal and Orissa, there are millions of followers of Lord Caitanya. In Maharastra a saint of the name Saint Tukaram was also follower of Lord Caitanya and he has overflooded the whole Western India with Sankirtana Movement. So Sankirtana Movement in India in all the provinces is very much popular and anyone who is taking part in Sankirtana Movement is specifically devotee of Lord Krishna or Lord Rama. There is not a single Hindu in India who is not more or less Krishna Conscious. So far descendants are concerned, material nature is so strong that she does not allow anything to go on steadily. But sometimes we find that the descendant of Hiranyakasipu is Prahlada Maharaja and the second generation descendant of Prahlada Maharaja is Banasura.

Here is one of my favorite abhangas of His Divine Grace Tukaram prabhu:

He who utters the Name of God while walking gets the merit of a sacrifice at every step.
His body becomes a place of pilgrimage.
He who repeats Gods Name while working always finds perfect peace.
He who utters the Name of God while eating gets the merit of a fast even though he has taken his meals.

Even if one were to give in charity the whole earth encircled by the seas it would not equal the merit of repeating the Name.
By the power of the Name one will know what cannot be known,
One will see what cannot be seen,
One will speak what cannot be spoken,
One will meet what cannot be met.
Tuka says, Incalculable is the gain that comes from repeating the Name of God.

Letters : 1968 Correspondence : March : Letter to: Upendra -- Los Angeles 1 March, 1968 : 68-03-01 :

In this way, we must learn all of us, to defeat these nonsense rascals, and curtail this epidemic of Impersonalism,, which is fatal to the innocent people. We can stop this epidemic with this information of Krishna Consciousness, and it is our duty to do it.