Pariprashnena — Q&A Archive

If the leaders are pure they will inspire everyone to give 50% and more without even asking.Just like Srila Prabhupada did.In the absence of the real purity everyone is suspicious and tightfisted.Just look for example how certain "swami" spends hundreds of dollars on worthless "antiques" in India.Wold such conduct inspire any sane person to part with their hard-earned money?Certainly not.

So much money is wasted needlessly by the current leaders and until that stops money will have to come from the sources that are easily exploitable,such as Hindu community etc.But there is a price to pay for that as there is no free lunch in this material world.Increasingly,to attract such sources of funding many compromises have to be made.I need not mention it here as it is abundantly clear what those are.

We all know(at least subconsciously) when we are being cheated so most of us are likely to withhold our financial support until the leaders come up to the higher standard.The way the things are going now ......it will not happen any time soon.

Show me one person who at any time of his devotional life was giving exactly 50% of his income to Prabhupada? Never knew of any grihastha who actually did and continues to do so. I sounds like a way of saying -- I do not want you to stay outside of the temple.

"the point I was making is that there are not many (if any) examples of grihasthas in Prabhupadas times that paid 50% and continue to do so. I mean there were prob like 5 or 6 grihasthas who had jobs or a business that paid at the time... "

this kind of mental speculation is not only wrong, its both offensive to those thousands who did, for whatever period of time, give so freely, and its even more offensive that the purity that spawned such giving is not recognized as the miracle of devotional inspiration that it was. how can people of today understand? " how big is the ocean compared to my well?"

Devotees were giving 100% even grihastas.You obviously need justification for your not being able to do so and I can tell you that there isnt any.And even if there was nobody following this instruction still this is not reason enough for not aspiring and trying to come to that standard of devotional service.

>Devotees were giving 100% even grihastas
well that I know. But is there anyone who was giving 50% of his income (not a 100% giving and fully maintained devotee) and is continuing to do so? Any name...

I am not at liberty do disclose that but there are I know them and I know the ones that give 80% of their time while they spend 20% of their time making money so that they can support themselves to be able to serve 80% of the time.I know that this is hard to believe but there are.I know of sanitarian devotees that either dont report their scores or report very few books while they distribute many.Not all of us are fruitful ji.

One devotee that comes to mind was teaching at university,supporting his wife and son while running the temple.That was 6-7 years ago.I have not seen him since but I was very impressed.He had full faith that the Lord with provide and it was so.

The point I am making here is that there are people that would rather die than take salary from the movement for their sustenance.They usually have faith and realization to back it up.Their contribution tends to be more significant also.I also know of utterly useless incompetent people getting paid for their "services" to Iskcon while using Iskcon resources to start/run or maintain their businesses.Those are too numerous to name here unfortunately.

I agree that there are so many selfless devotees, who would never get a salary or even a penny from ISKCON and would only give. It is admirable. It is unfortunate that the system where atmanivedanam is being devalued is spread and the old one is being destroyed by time... I do not think that salary is always wrong, but in the case where a person works for the temple it is definitely wrong, people can not be paid salary for seva. But the point I was making is that there are not many (if any) examples of grihasthas in Prabhupadas times that paid 50% and continue to do so. I mean there were prob like 5 or 6 grihasthas who had jobs or a business that paid at the time...

janmastami das: I dont see anyone offending purity of giving 100% and more.
Those thousands werent grhasthas with income. Those we talk about.

Theres an example of Kolaveca Sridhar who gave 50% for the worship of Ganga and kept the rest for himself and his family.
He exemplifies extreme renunciation in the devotional service. The other extreme example - of very wealthy but fully detached devotee - is Pundarika Vidyanidhi. Its not mentioned that he would give 50%. Lord loves both of them.

Personally, I have a problem with the attitude Krsna will provide. Not so much because its sometimes misused to justify laziness and wastage but, more importantly, because advanced devotees never allow Krsna to be their servant (although He tries hard to serve them). Examples: Sudama Brahmana, Sanatana Gosvami, Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati, etc.

Veda said: "Personally, I have a problem with the attitude Krsna will provide. "

response: i can see how that mentality and this philosphy would be incompatable. therein lies "the problem".

The mood in which this question is conveyed by ccd is a mood of suspicion and disbelief that there are indeed many surrendered devotees giving 50% or more, hence such attitude may be deemed offensive to the devotees that choose not to blow their trumpet about their monetary contributions.If they were following the current trend as exemplified by the current shameless self-promoters in leadership positions you would hear about it,no doubt.It would be in their public diaries ,books would be written about it,it would be mentioned during bhagavatam lectures or they would even write it on their t-shirts.

I was not questioning people who lived in the temple or those who gave a lot. I only question if there were any (outside of temple) devotees who did give 50% off their business or salary at Prabhupadas time and are still doing it.

Sorry if you see that offensive. I have heard of one devotee like that who lived near the temple, he was giving 50% of his profits and later management told him that that is not enough and asked for 50% of income instead, he just closed the shop... I still feel that the 50% of the income is discouraging to a huge extent and was intended as such, in effect stopping anyone to live outside of the temple structure as a grihastha. I do not think that many grihasthas do live "in the temple" anymore. Even you Misra, when you visited NVM, you did not even took part in any functions of the temple, what to speak living in the temple itself, your kids may like it but not you..

Another example of "discouraging" instruction: "Regarding Ganesa Puja, I have received some letters from persons requesting to also perform it. I have explained to them that ultimately it is not required, but if you have some sentiment to get the blessings of Ganesa in order to get huge sums of money for service of Krishna, then it can be done, but privately. I have instructed them that if they want to do it, they must send me at least 100,000 dollars monthly--not less."

Therere two SP letters about this 50-25-25 division, to Advaita (1968) and Gopala Krsna (1969).

It should be remembered that the example of Rupa Gosvami refers to 1. a one-time division (at his retirement) of 2. a huge amount of wealth.
Otoh, to give every month half of ones salary to the mission is impractical for those whore not wealthy enough to survive with the other half, unless they have other sources.

But it would be interesting for some varnasrama committee to know how much devotees earn and how much they spend for living.

Yes, Veda. It is important to see what is the disposable income for a devotee. In the case of Rupa/Sanatana it was the disposable fortune of rather huge wealth and they were entering the informal sannyas.

It is also really funny, that brahmacari or sannyasi is allowed to do business, and keep the money and grihasthas are faced with 50% income tax. Im not being funny but the disposable income of a sannyasi or a working brahmacari is rather huge these days.

Narayan maharaj has compromised this principle:

"TITHING
Tithing is an ancient spiritual practice propounded by most religions and spiritualists. It is a secret of success in both material and spiritual life. There are numerous books written on this subject. Many persons are attracted to tithing for material prosperity, and they also receive spiritual benefit. Those who do it without seeking material rewards, achieve greater spiritual rewards.

What is tithing? It is based on the principal of giving a portion of ones time, energy and money to the source of ones spiritual inspiration. The usual amount is 10%. If one can give more than this, all the better, but 10% is the generally recommended amount because it does not cause a hardship for the giver. This is not just money to be given, but time, and energy as well. That means that in a given day or a week, one will set aside 10% of ones time for spiritual activities and service. In a day consisting of 24 hours, that equates to approximately 2.5 hours to be spent on spiritual activities or sadhana-bhakti.

Srila Prabhupada asked of his householder disciples living in ISKCON to give 50% of their income, but practically very few could follow this. Giving 10% is much easier and one hardly notices any change in ones daily routine or material obligations. In fact, whatever lack may be there, turns into a boon (spiritually) and creates much more prosperity in ones life.

Prosperity is more than money. It is also precious time, energy, inspiration, good health, well being, etc. Those who practice tithing find the extra prosperity and fortune that comes into their lives many times exceeds whatever they have given.

If a miserly person is only concerned about his own maintenance and well-being and doesn'92t thinks about others needs, then he finds himself always lacking and in want. This is the paradox and secret of living in an interactive world. In giving one finds happiness and pleasure, and in helping others one finds ones own needs are automatically met."
--Bhakti projects, website of Narayan maharaj

ccd said: " brahmacari or sannyasi is allowed to do business, and keep the money "
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that kind of mentality in so called "brahmacharis" or "sanyassis" should be the first warning sign.

To give charity is one of the householders main functions, and he should be prepared to give in charity at least fifty percent of his hard-earned money.

SB 1.9.27

[quote][cite] janmastami das:[/cite]ccd said: " brahmacari or sannyasi is allowed to do business, and keep the money "
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that kind of mentality in so called "brahmacharis" or "sanyassis" should be the first warning sign.[/quote] There are no brahmacaris (that I know about) -- I guess there are sannyasis somewhere, but I am yet to meet one who is without a fault, so better give charity to grihasthas, if all grihasthas give 50% to other grihasthas in charity, the balance will be kept and whatever you give you will receive...

interesting mood being displayed here...i recently was in a temple where they displayed the donations which helped build the temple itself .They had bronze, gold and silver square plates with the names of all those whom had donated 1,000 dollars up to 25,000 dollars.It was simply wonderful because many i new personally.There was many normally ordinary devotees having given ten thousand to twenty thousand dollars.
I was simply stunned to fully appreciate there immense generosity,they had given because it was a worth while cause.Mostly they were indian,whom are differcult to seperate from their laxsmi easily.However here they were generously donating there hard earned laxsmi,to the white sadhus whom had been there devotional freinds for many years!Now this iskcon temple will simply grow and grow ....because it has everything a devotional community needs.
When i jioned we gave everything we had..... why fifty percent?However we should never callously perceive others devotional service or even those whom we judge as lesser.....they might be merely waiting for us to offer them the opportunity to surrender fully.We as the brahmins should become expert to manifest krishnas merciful compassionate side to encourage them fully.....rather than discourage !

you raise an intereseting counterpoint with the assertion ".We as the brahmins ", which some might take exception with. were it "we the Vaishnavas", there should be agreement, but this "we the brahmins" mood is both exclusionary to other Vaishanavs, the non -Brahmin Vaishnavs, and seems to put "brahmin" in a higher position than a ksatriya or a vaisha Vaishnava. many temples had such donation plaques on their wall, but that was before the days of private bank accounts. that was back in the day when everyones lot was the same. lot has changed since those days. some good, some not so easy to explain....

then theres always the old warning on the instruction manual:

And charity performed at an improper place and time and given to unworthy persons without respect and with contempt is charity in the mode of ignorance. BG 17:23

[quote][cite] janmastami das:[/cite]you raise an intereseting counterpoint with the assertion ".We as the brahmins ", which some might take exception with. were it "we the Vaishnavas", there should be agreement, but this "we the brahmins" mood is both exclusionary to other Vaishanavs, the non -Brahmin Vaishnavs, and seems to put "brahmin" in a higher position than a ksatriya or a vaisha Vaishnava. many temples had such donation plaques on their wall, but that was before the days of private bank accounts. that was back in the day when everyones lot was the same. lot has changed since those days. some good, some not so easy to explain....

then theres always the old warning on the instruction manual:

And charity performed at an improper place and time and given to unworthy persons without respect and with contempt is charity in the mode of ignorance. BG 17:23[/quote]

Please ignore bhakti das, it is none other than the deranged "sri_govinda_das"

[quote][cite] mung:[/cite][quote][cite] janmastami das:[/cite]you raise an intereseting counterpoint with the assertion ".We as the brahmins ", which some might take exception with. were it "we the Vaishnavas", there should be agreement, but this "we the brahmins" mood is both exclusionary to other Vaishanavs, the non -Brahmin Vaishnavs, and seems to put "brahmin" in a higher position than a ksatriya or a vaisha Vaishnava. many temples had such donation plaques on their wall, but that was before the days of private bank accounts. that was back in the day when everyones lot was the same. lot has changed since those days. some good, some not so easy to explain....

then theres always the old warning on the instruction manual:

And charity performed at an improper place and time and given to unworthy persons without respect and with contempt is charity in the mode of ignorance. BG 17:23[/quote]

Please ignore bhakti das, it is none other than the deranged "sri_govinda_das"[/quote] Actually his name is Yuga Avatar Das.

Lets face it we are either following the standard or we are trying to.If we are trying to change it than that is called disobedience ,no matter how lovingly/sentimentally we phrase it.

Letters : 1971 Correspondence : July : Letter to: Umapati -- Los Angeles 9 July, 1971 : 71-07-09 :
And if you are unable to give 50% of your income, then who is pressing you? It is voluntary. If you have not got any means, then who is exacting you? So these things are specifically happening to you, not to others. There are so many grhasthas and they are not feeling any inconvenience. They have dedicated their lives to the service of the Lord. And most GBC members are householders. You also may be elected. The position is open to all grhasthas. But if you live separately with your wife and earn only for yourself and your wife, then how you expect to have a good position with the society? Everybody is earning for their wife and family, so if you are doing so also, then what is the difference between such endeavor and that of the karmi? ...

[quote][cite] ccd:[/cite]Another example of "discouraging" instruction: "Regarding Ganesa Puja, I have received some letters from persons requesting to also perform it. I have explained to them that ultimately it is not required, but if you have some sentiment to get the blessings of Ganesa in order to get huge sums of money for service of Krishna, then it can be done, but privately. I have instructed them that if they want to do it, they must send me at least 100,000 dollars monthly--not less."[/quote]

That standard of Demigod worship is indirectly a form of Krsna devotion. In the temple they have the highest standards of worship of The Goddess of Fortune Herself, Laxmi Devi. Book scores and accounting records of donations "Scores" are kept by using the "Laxmi Point" standard. It is used to confuse the real difference of "real" dollars and some kind of bogus standard. Treasurers had to deal with this nightmare from time immemorial.

You will find no sastric reference to such practices.

Bhaktivedanta VedaBase: uc0u346 ru299 mad Bhu257 gavatam 2.3.18_21
"So even though a rich mans wife has glittering bangles made of gold on her hands, she must engage herself in rendering service to the Lord."
I think better sell all the marble in the temple and engage all the Laxmi for printing brhat mrdanga. :Dont be surprised at who left, be surprised at who stayed.:

There is a guarantee of moneys being returned if given in charity, regardless of the proportion. Similarly, a moment passed in the association of a pure devotee by hearing and chanting the transcendental messages of the Lord is a perfect guarantee for eternal life, for returning home, back to Godhead. Mad-dhuc0u257 ma gatvu257 punar janma na vidyate. In other words, a devotee of the Lord is guaranteed eternal life. A devotees old age or disease in the present life is but an impetus to such guaranteed eternal life.

"The best purpose of such traveling tendencies could be fulfilled by visiting the holy places established by great u257 cu257 ryas and thereby not being misled by the atheistic propaganda of moneymaking men who have no knowledge of spiritual matters."

The preaching : : the essence- books: : the basis, -purity: : the force,,,,utility is the principle.