Pariprashnena — Q&A Archive

Perhaps ISKCON needs to go through the whole process of "development of religious institution", as exemplified over the centuries by the RCC, with all the ups and dows and sideways.

What you say is true Baker, its the unfortunate truth. It was once a spiritual organization, now its in the throws of becoming just another religious institution.

I already gave mine.

I like an idea of a minimum wage or an average industrial wage for all leaders. High salary is complete nonsense. Of course paying less than a minimum wage is not only illegal, its disrespectful too and this is going on; so better to follow Prabhupada and do not get paid by ISKCON. Of course there should be transparency, and one way to achieve it is to know first what is the allowances, expenses and bonuses devotees getting paid. It has to be open and transparent..

I think Srila Prabhupada was coming from a culture where people have an inherent sense of indebtedness and gratitude - so they would not take anything without repaying for it, either in money, in doing a favor, or in material goods. This is also a culture that has an inherent conviction that the Dharma is something valuable. In such a culture, to request payment for spiritual services would indeed be out of line.

But our modern Western culture is not like that. Generally, people here yet need to be convinced that the Dharma is something valuable, and they also have a weaker sense of indebtedness and gratitude.

So to me, the relevant questions are:
How can people be taught, and learn, that the Dharma is something valuable?
How can their sense of indebtedness and gratitude be awakened?

Baker>>I think Srila Prabhupada was coming from a culture where people have an inherent sense of indebtedness and gratitude

Yes but Srila Prabhupadas main success started in the west, he came to the west and had predominantly western disciples, and he did not agree with his western disciples taking salary. His disciples willfully gave up their lives for him with love and devotion (bhakti). Once you introduce salary into the equation it changes the relationship. He did agree with devotees in the temple or in full time important positions having their living expenses paid for (apartment, prasadam etc) but you cannot claim to be a Vairagya, wear the cloth and receive a salary. He clearly by his own statements did not agree with this and challenged it whenever he found it going on. Now it has become a standard practice. It may be that if money was not paid these people would not perform the service or would be less inclined to do so which raises the question about bhakti.

ccd>>Of course there should be transparency, and one way to achieve it is to know first what is the allowances, expenses and bonuses devotees getting paid. It has to be open and transparent..

Yes I agree, what ever the situation re: "salaries" the temples should practice open and transparent accounting and publish their financial records for all to see, because they are professing to be a religious organization and claiming tax free status and receiving donations from the public, the governments should enforce open and transparent reporting to the public.

> He did agree with devotees in the temple or in full time important positions having their living expenses paid for (apartment, prasadam etc)

Thats it. Only nowadays most devotees are outside the temple.

> claim to be a Vairagya, wear the cloth and receive a salary.

Im yet to see a list of renunciates receiving salary.

> It may be that if money was not paid these people would not perform the service or would be less inclined to do so which raises the question about bhakti.

First, who are these people? Are they experts? If yes, are they getting an average money (i.e. average in a particular place) or less? If theyre getting less, its a form of charity from their side since otherwise outsourcing would cost much more. In case of experts, its not about bhakti but about know-how. Someone can be a prema bhakta yet incompetent to do a specific thing, like e.g. accounting, auditing, attorneying, etc.

Non-expert positions are something else. Yet its often difficult in non-monastery or non-army environment to get a volunteer to do something 1. properly and 2. consistently. Examples: cleaning, guarding, etc. Sometimes to arrange for volunteers is ultimately more costly than to arrange for paid hands. So it has to be seen what is more practical and cheaper.

You always eulogize ISKCON in 70s for its enthusiasm, etc. Yet an incompetent enthusiast with insufficient guidance can do more harm than a levelheaded expert. Examples galore, beginning with our key activities - book production (a need to fix the books) and book distribution (the notorious every town and pillage style). Later SP wanted to retire and focus on book translation but couldnt. Putting out fires (GBC mismanagement) prevented him.

Im all for transparency, _beginning with the government_.

[quote][cite] VEDA:[/cite]> Examples galore, beginning with our key activities - book production (a need to fix the books) quote]

Are you saying Srila Prabhupadas original books are broken, or using the unauthorized changes of his book as an example of incompetence?

mung, you already forgot all those previous exchanges? Hayagriva was competent to fix grammar and style but made many unauthorized changes in 1st editions, therefore became the target of SPs criticism in the rascal editors conversation. (I dont think you can understand this, yet its chewing the chewed.)

Silly me, I thought youd seen the light.

Same here. If you prefer your mind over Prabhupada, what can be done?

Anyway getting back On Topic...

There are gradations of bhakti as defined in the Bhakti Rasamrta Sindu so even if someone can argue a case of taking money from Srila Prabhupadas movement in the guise of "salary" even though Srila Prabhupada made so many emphatic statements against this, it would have to be classified in the lower levels of bhakti if at all. Dont expect someone who has their hands in the till to be reaching Prema Bhakti anytime soon, and there are so many with their hands in the till.

VEDA>>You always eulogize ISKCON in 70s for its enthusiasm, etc.

No I eulogize ISKCON in 70s for the mere fact that Srila Prabhupada for the most part was still here to guide Iskcon. Who would you expect me to be quoting after Srila Prabhupada VEDA? Because other than Srila Prabhupada I havent seen anyone worth quoting, especially on this subject, all the current leaders seem to be mysteriously quiet on the issue.

VEDA>>Im all for transparency, _beginning with the government_.

Oh I see, its let everyone else do the right thing first then we will consider doing the right thing, that doesnt sound like Vaisnava attitude!
A so called spiritual organization should lead by example, if all of Iskcons dealings are above board and honest why would you not want to to be open and transparent?

"Prabhupada: Vairagya'85 Caitanya Mahaprabhu says clearly that niskincanasya bhagavad-bhajanonmukhasya. The bhagavad-bhajana, to become devotee of the Lord, means he'92s disgusted with this material world. For him, bhagavad-bhajana. Just like if I become disgusted with something, I require some change, similarly, bhagavad-bhajana is for him who is absolutely disgusted with this material world. And anyone who has got little interest in material enjoyment, he'92s not fit for bhagavad-bhajana.

Tamala Krsna: I was reading the life sketch of Bhaktivinoda Thakura. He always maintained a government service job, and still'85

Prabhupada: He gave so much service to Krsna. From his family maintenance'85 He could have renounced, but he said that the family has to be maintained. So he'85 Markata-vairagya. Bhaktivinoda Thakura was against giving sannyasa."

It seems the standards are no longer the same so we should expect the results will no longer be the same.

These blatant insolent remarks about what Srila Prabhupada "really" wanted are almost making me puke.
His statements about someone getting a place to sleep/apartment and something to eat/temple prasadam are abundantly clear.
This does not provide for ANYTHING beyond BARE NECESSITIES that the renounced person-be it grihasta or celibate needs to keep ones body and soul together in order to render DEVOTIONAL service and not a MERCENARY service (for the master that pays him (be it a TP,GBC or whoever).The position of being subservient - under somebodys dictates or protection makes them only a servant of that particular master (read:SUDRA). Whether one is a well read SUDRA or the illiterate one,its the same.He is a SUDRA and this is impossible to dispute based on the above mentioned quotes.That is why Srila Prabhupada argued the following point so strongly.They are not brahmanas-under no circumstances.Expect no truth,no real knowledge,no detachment nor compassion from them.If they extend it against their masters wishes(GBC,TP,GURU)-they will loose their job and consequently their livelihood .Is it a wander that our "gurus" have surrounded themselves with just the right kind of people to help keep them in their materially comfortable positions indefinitely.

mercenary |uc0u712 mu601 rsu601 u716 neru275 |
adjective derogatory
(of a person or their behavior) primarily concerned with making money at the expense of ethics : shes nothing but a mercenary little gold digger.

Baker you nailed it on the head when you addressed the issue of ingratitude,I salute you for your honesty.

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IMPORTANT!!!This Short FREE Seminar in GRATITUDE Comes With an Iron clad,lifetime,unconditional guarantee and your FULL misery and ingratitude back,no questions asked.

Here is the way that I would choose to explain this concept of GRATITUDE and PROPER CULTURE to my two sons aged 9 and 11.

If you are homeless man,loitering on the streets freezing in the middle of the winter and having nothing to eat and one person opens their door to you and lets you in to stay as long as you like.
He asks you kindly to follow the rules that he had established and to keep faithful to them and to try and accept as many people into that house as possible.Others like you are the hosts main concern.He also kindly asks you not to change the structure of the house(dont knock down the columns or walls under no circumstances) and to just follow his instructions faithfully if you wish to get all the benefit or co-existence with your housemates residing in the same house.He also asks that there be segregation and no free mingling between the sexes in the house for the peace of mind and the integrity of the families living in it.

For some time you feel grateful,you are getting all the love you never experienced before from your cohabitants and the person that graciously invited you in(in our case that is Srila Prabhupada)..You enjoy the food and the facilities while the vivid memory of the desperation and agony that you experienced while you were hungry and out in the cold is still fresh in your mind.

In the mean time the original person that invited you in.... departs,due to old age and illness.You remain sad for some time but soon enough your memory of your generous,gracious host fades away.

But,as the time goes by and you get fatter and more comfortable in your position of safety,your gratitude starts waning you start quarreling with the cohabitants of that house(ISKCON).You crave for more power,better portions and you crave for better room for yourself and to have as many people as possible serving you.The original owner (founder acharya) has warned you that there will be strife and that there were similar houses(Gaudiya math) in the past afflicted with the same problem but you and your fellows conveniently forget that.You conveniently disregard all the instructions(or some of them) and start creating your own plans and rules.

You take the rules that suit you and disregard the rest.You knock down the walls separating men and women,you destroy all the supporting pillars in order to "expand" the house(changing the books to appease feminists and materialistic scholars) and you deride and argue with every point that your gracious host has established so that every one of the members of the household can enjoy the peace,safety and the comfort of the house.You accuse your benevolent and gracious host of being "old fashioned" ,"having to sides to him"and you accuse him of not having a great understanding of your language.You forget that when you were hungry his language seemed just fine and the food that he offered you tasted divine.

.....to be continued

continued........

You start to disagree and fight with the members of the household who desire to uphold the rules and the wishes of the owner of the house and ensure that his spirit,mission and guidance remain present.You form a clique with the same minded persons in the household and you forcefully eject all the dissenting members based on your NEW understanding and the "IMPROVED" interpretation of the rules governing the coexistence of the members of the household.

You remain content with your new design and happy that the dissenters are removed and out in the cold.You notice that with the new set of rules there are new and ever expanding problems emerging so you meet yearly with your friends and try to improve upon your own rules in order to make sure that you retain the power.Dissenters are either marginalized or kicked out.Or promoted to higher ,salaried positions(usually promoted to their level of incompetence) in order to make them more CONTROLLABLE ,SCARED,OBEDIENT and DOCILE.

With the loss of the original zeal for admitting new homeless members into the household the problems start to grow exponentially until the hose is finally demolished and everyone is out in the cold and hungry.

I tried my best to explain how you may try to get in touch with that feeling of gratitude Baker,since you at least seem to desire it.

I have certain advantage in explaining this matter since I came from distinctly non-western old fashion, Islamic culture where father is always respected and given recognition as a head of the family no matter how disagreeable his desires about "household management" may seem.

If you wish to continue imbibing the your original western "culture" you are bound to be devoid of all the blessings that come with respecting your father,honoring your guru and protecting your mother.It can easily be deduced that the Lord Krisha will not be pleased with you for not honoring the thousands of years old tradition on the account of following the despicable culture that emerged barely 50 years ago and that is rapidly disintegrating before our own eyes.

I wish you the best of luck in deciding which road you want to take.It is not all in following the dictates of your mind,it is about following the dictates of the spiritual master that saved you from the cold and hunger.Even the Lord Himself exhibited by example, the mumble inclination to rather feel like a fool in the presence of His spiritual master.

If you try and substitute your benevolent master with some that are posing to be as benevolent as he was,you will remain hungry and cold in your soul no matter how well sheltered externally.

If you offer your food,money and service to the learned Ravanas(Fake Gurus) and Muras (GBC"s)--yes,they were very learned too,much more than Hridayananda and Jayadvatia and co.- capable of formidable austerities (yes,they too were able to pray and meditate for thousands of years but only in order to satisfy their more empowered counterparts in order to obtain their lusty material gains while being devoid of an ounce of love,faith and respect for their original spiritual master and Krishna.

Remember,the food offered to the pitris(ghost like gurus like Satsvarupa-see the photo for personal your own evaluation) is not to be eaten by the humans.Instead it is given to the dogs and other animals.Dont eat leftovers of the demons or else you will become one yourself.I tried it for years to my detriment and I implore you to consider this point seriously.

My advice is BE GRATEFUL and enjoy the FULL benefit of the Srila Prabhupadas GIFT.

If you are inclined to think that my language is to strong,my nature to heavy or simply that I am wrong in my assessment of things please understand that from where I am now-with my wife,kids and most of my friends-I am freezing cold and hungry for the warmth of my Spiritual Masters home, just as I was before I got mercilessly kicked out by our salaried- '93learned and compassionate brahmins'94.

sincerely

Enver Ajanovic

manasi,

> Oh I see, its let everyone else do the right thing first then we will consider doing the right thing, that doesnt sound like Vaisnava attitude!
A so called spiritual organization should lead by example, if all of Iskcons dealings are above board and honest why would you not want to to be open and transparent?

Thats a misunderstanding or misrepresentation, as usual. I reacted to "the governments should enforce open and transparent reporting to the public." If governments arent open and transparent themselves, they can hardly force anyone to be such and remain somehow trustworthy.

jagannath,

> These blatant insolent remarks about what Srila Prabhupada "really" wanted are almost making me puke.

Can you specify?

> His statements about someone getting a place to sleep/apartment and something to eat/temple prasadam are abundantly clear.

Isnt it obvious that it refers to the monastery-type of environment?

Your fiction-cum-aparadha tirades wont help you nor anyone else. They have nothing in common with the purpose of this site.

> all the current leaders seem to be mysteriously quiet on the issue.

I also though this disappointing, but a 5 minute google search turned up this:

European Leaders Meeting 2006: Reports from group discussions on '91Wages for sages'92

The discussions, by six groups, concerned whether it was in the interest of the integrity of ISKCON, or in keeping with the instruction of Srila Prabhupada, that members of the movement be given salaries. The group discussions were preceded by presentations which highlighted the differing attitudes to the issue. Here are the reports from the groups:

'95 When brahminical purity is exhibited by fully committed members, then this inspires vaisyas to offer support by giving donations. Grihasta businesses should be encouraged by ISKCON in order to provide support for those devotees who do not generate such inspiration. Generally, ISKCON sponsors simple living in order to remove the need for salaries.

'95 Devotion cannot be bought. Members of ISKCON fall into different categories, and the movement'92s level of responsibility towards them differs accordingly. The practice of giving commissions to devotee fundraisers should be stopped. A minimum level of maintenance can be offered to grihastas '96 any funds above an absolute minimum must be raised by the individuals. There should be support for valuable devotees, but that should be offered according to their means. Much more research on the Vedabase is required to understand Srila Prabhupada'92s statements. There is a disparity in our community regarding funding: our working congregational members willingly give donations, but some of our '91full-time'92 devotees are demanding money as if it is a right. Financial transparency of our leaders will produce financial transparency from our members.

'95 Definitions: Salary means an exchange of money in return for service. Members who have a salary should take care of themselves and pay all their expenses. Maintenance means that sufficient funds are given to allow the member to live with a minimum but human standard of living. They must live in an ISKCON or rented property. The life must be communal, with everyone eating together. Everyone must receive the same funds, whatever their service or status within the community. The tempe president decides the '91needs'92 of the member. There must be a life contract entered into by ISKCON and this fully-maintained member. The ideal situation for ISKCON is that both temple and mission are based on maintenance, not salaries.

'95 Maintenance is OK, even if you officially label it '91salary'92 for the government. Not everyone whose service we require is a brahmana. There must be parallel businesses which could be on ISKCON property '96 such as gift shops or restaurants '96 but they pay rent. These businesses would give extra help above and beyond maintenance. They would also provide association for grihastas that helps them stay strong. When children get older, a couple needs more funds, but we'92d still like to keep such a couple directly serving within the mission.

'95 In principle we are against salaries but in favor of maintenance. Salaried people should be involved in generating income. It should be known by all how many funds are being given in exchange for how much service. Opportunities to participate in commercial ventures should be given to community members, not only temple devotees.

(end)

There are no two ways about it, Srila Prabhupada simply did not want Iskcon paying wages/salaries to anyone..period..the opening statements in this thread by Srila Prabhupada clearly states this fact. Yes Iskcon may have to pay professional fees to lawyers, publishers etc. but that is completely different it is an expense that all religious organizations have to pay for professional services. But to put someone permanently on the payroll is exactly what he didnt want.

Documents available at: http://www.eurogbc.com/content/elm-2006

[quote][cite] deena:[/cite]Documents available at: http://www.eurogbc.com/content/elm-2006[/quote]

[p]
Yes nice have you read any of these documents?, they completely contradict themselves over and over again, they simply stop using the word salary and change it to financial aid or maintenance. Its not the word its the intent, regular money in exchange for services rendered, its the same as a regular job and so will the results be.[/p]

[p]
All simply bogus, manipulating their way around and against what Srila Prabhupada wanted.[/p]

[p]You either surrender and accept what your Guru has said or you seek to get your own way by the manipulation of words, its not even intelligently done, any fool can see how these bogus swamis are corrupting Iskcon using their pseudo intellectual status to override Srila Prabhupadas clear statements. No Salary! The only financial aid is apartment and prasadam if you are important to the local temple otherwise get a job you bum![/p]

[p]
The truth of the matter is these people need money, in many cases to support their families, so thats easy go and find a job like everyone else, like Bhaktivinoda Thakur did, then not only can you support yourself and your family you can contribute to Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhus movement and Srila Prabhupadas book distribution instead of taking from it.[/p]

[p]Salary, maintenance, financial aid...call it what you like its regular money taken from Srila Prabhupada. The fact is these Grihastas should be out there working and supporting the temple, they have it the wrong way around. This is just another example where Iskcons leaders deviate from what Srila Prabhupada plainly said by calling salary a different name like maintenance or financial aid. The whole concept is wrong, the temple and brahmanas were beyond corruption because they relied on Krishna and donations, the money came in from the community they did not pay the brahmins or the community to serve. Its a sad day in Iskcons history where they have to pay people to get them to serve or stay.[/p]

> Iskcon may have to pay professional fees to lawyers, publishers etc. but that is completely different it is an expense that all religious organizations have to pay for professional services. But to put someone permanently on the payroll is exactly what he didnt want.

So its better to pay for regular expensive services...? Its hard to imagine given SPs thriftiness and practical approach.

One way out is to engage devotees whore retired professionals or who have extra income and lots of free time. But theyre as rare as saffron, as we say.

Publishers: The only BBT-run printing works in the West (L.A.) were closed many years ago. Nowadays BBT does only outsourcing as far printing goes, afaik.

Book production: Outsourcing to professional designers, etc. is too expensive. Still, translators, editors and proofreaders have to be devotees who know the teachings and practice them. There were failed attempts (even in our BBT branch) to have books translated by outside professionals.

> This is just another example where Iskcons leaders deviate from what Srila Prabhupada plainly said by calling salary a different name like maintenance or financial aid.

You contradict what you said above:

"He did agree with devotees in the temple or in full time important positions having their living expenses paid for (apartment, prasadam etc)."

> Its a sad day in Iskcons history where they have to pay people to get them to serve or stay.

Start your own temple and put your suggestions to practice. All the best.

VEDA>>So its better to pay for regular expensive services...?

They are not regular services and if you have no inhouse expertise you have no option. Example you have an electrical fault in the temple which requires a licensed electrician...Get the picture VEDA? or should I simplify it further?

If its an adhoc service required like auditing, lawyers fees, land brokerage fees, plumbing, electrical etc specifically where the expertise is not in house you have no option you have to pay for it. Srila Prabhupada purchased many properties you think he did not pay lawyers fees in the states where he purchased the properties? You have no option unless you have in-house expertise.

I meant publishing as in printing just like McMillan printed Srila Prabhupadas first books not translating, proof reading and design obviously that is best handled inhouse. That is one area Vaisnavas are quite expert in, that is what they do, translate, design, proof read and some cases they have their own printing presses even outside of Iskcon. Books are the preaching life blood of Vaisnavas so it stands to reason they would accumulate much expertise in this area.

But you are missing the point VEDA we are talking about devotees taking regular money for daily services rendered like Pujari work, or some daily temple service.

There is no contradiction in my statements I am only quoting Srila Prabhupada on the issue, I am not falsely looking to justify being paid any funds from Srila Prabhupada I would rather donate to his cause than steal from his cause.

The only contradiction is in Iskcon falsely manipulating and searching for general words spoken by Srila Prabhupada that they can use to challenge Srila Prabhupadas clear statements on the issue, then they can justify anything like paying regular money for services rendered.

Call it what you like: Salary, maintenance, financial aid... it its 100% against what Srila Prabhupada wanted and it serves to attract the wrong type of people. If you have skills live in the temple apartment, take the daily prasadam and help Srila Prabhupada. If you cannot handle that arrangement in that you want more money then clearly you are not finished with the material world so better take a job, then you can service your remaining material desires honestly, contribute to Srila Prabhupadas mission instead of taking from it and support your family. Iskcons way will not create respect it will create money mindedness.

VEDA>>Start your own temple and put your suggestions to practice. All the best.

They are not my suggestions, they are Srila Prabhupadas orders. Its clear Iskcons leaders should follow Srila Prabhupadas orders or they should start their own temples and put their new unauthorized ways to practice.

This is taken from "Synthesis of the groups on Wages for Sages" on deenas link: (What a sick title Wages for Sages more like ill gotten gains)

"There is a disparity in our community regarding funding: our working congregational members willingly give donations, but some of our '91full-time'92 devotees are demanding money as if it is a right. Financial transparency of our leaders will produce financial transparency from our members."

The local temple president is the local authority, if they are taking wages then its sets a bad example where more will demand their wages just like the statement above is confirming. All becoming money minded devoid of bhakti.

All the time I speak about regular expert services.
Pujari etc. doesnt require a certificate or school. Thus my above comment on non-experts.
Here temple devotees dont get paid. In other places situation may be different.
Then put Srila Prabhupadas orders into action by your own example. That was his way of acarya.

Veda,we have so many devious characters in ISKCON clinging on to their high paying positions while being supported by the people that are also renumerated for their "volontary,devotional service".Big Rascal pays the small rascal who will in turn defend him because he depends on the Big Rascal for his livelihood.In the mean time truth is being withheld and love perishes too.LOVE and TRUST gone -because of the salaried mercenaries have infested the ISKCON.

That in turn attracts whole host of perverts,pedofiles etc. who are ready to come and work for the low wages just to be exposed to the opportunities where they can exploit the innocent ladies and children.

The fact that you stand up in the defense of this heinous practice makes you a rascal too Veda.Truth does not have to be palatable in order to stand.You call me offensive because you live in your made up world where it is natural to receive money for your "devotional service".

If the purpose of this forum is to uphold the truth than why are you obstinately defending various untruths such as "wages for sages" and book changes?

"One way out is to engage devotees whore retired professionals or who have extra income and lots of free time. But theyre as rare as saffron, as we say."

That is because they are repulsed by insincere mercenaries posing as Gods servants.Your motivations are to be questioned Veda.

"I like an idea of a minimum wage or an average industrial wage for all leaders."

Great CCd maybe you should start your own movement as see how you go.Your IDEAS are useless as you are if you start to disobey the orders of our Founder Acharya.
Just this solitary statement reveals that you are your own master and that your ideas are your instructions,not Srila Prabhupadas.Yet you still live in his house but you have no decency to honor him as the father of that house.Disgusting.

i never took as much as a dime for my service to isknon.did you veda,did you ccd?

in fact i was making the money so that the despicable mercenaries would get paid. i am out now but the mercenaries still have others earning their bread for them while they are rendering "selfless,unmotivated devotional service" pfui!!!!

Yes, Disgusting. The only problem is that you probably have mismanaged rather a lot of funds and allowances by not even understanding what Prabhupada wanted. Prabhupada wanted sane managers who do care for money and who can maintain devotees. No I did not ever get cash or check for any services to ISKCON, no salary too. Minimal wage is a law in some countries, if you propose to break the law, you better start your own movement (did you do it already?-)

is there a law stipulating that there should be wages for monks?

work and voluntary devotional service are two different terms

there are plenty of charity workers working full time with no compensation

i could go on but you are stubborn....

"The only problem is that you probably have mismanaged rather a lot of funds and allowances by not even understanding what Prabhupada wanted. "

is that a question or you already know all about me.perhaps you realized me before you even realized yourself ?

"No I did not ever get cash or check for any services to ISKCON, no salary too. Minimal wage is a law in some countries, if you propose to break the law, you better start your own movement (did you do it already?-) "

perhaps it is time to sue ISKCON since they have clearly BROKEN THE LAW by not paying you,dont you think?Dont you go all ILLEGAL on us now ccd.

I dont need to start a new movement , I have no IDEAS of my own ccd.I just try to follow IDEAS/INSTRUCTIONS of Srila Prabhupada.

I never said I "worked" for ISKCON, I am a volunteer -- if you have no ideas better not to comment what you think.

Srila Prabupada "Those who can give voluntary service, '93Welcome.'94 Otherwise we don'92t require."

What part of this do you people not understand? Its no wonder Iskcon is a complete train wreck!

Veda:"Thats it. Only nowadays most devotees are outside the temple."
Yes they live in big houses,drive big expensive new cars and are paid up to six figures yearly for taking the trouble to "serve the devotees".Great examples are the managers from the UK temples.Of course their exact salaries can never be disclosed to us,the unworthy ones.lol

ccd :"I never said I "worked" for ISKCON, I am a volunteer"

So should everybody else.That is Srila Prabhupadas IDEA.

veda: "Im yet to see a list of renunciates receiving salary."
I agree.There are none to be found due to the tight non-disclosure agreements.In the mean time they fly around on magic carpets,live under the trees and eat whatever they can pick of the trees.

jagannath,

if youre out of ISKCON whos forcing you to pay?

Funny how outside folks are the loudest reformers. Thats as good as barking of dogs.

"obstinately defending various untruths"

Unlike you, I use arguments. You simply proclaim.

"maybe you should start your own movement"

Do it and report back.

"i never took as much as a dime for my service to isknon.did you veda"

0

Do you have to write each par or sentence in a new entry? Looks like SGD.

"wages for monks?"

Give a list of those monks.

"ccd: Minimal wage is a law in some countries."

Yep, SP wanted ISKCON to follow local laws.

you are not arguing my points veda you are unskillfully avoiding them in order to maintain the status quo

"Yep, SP wanted ISKCON to follow local laws. "

I never argued that point.I argued point of defending the current salary system instituted in iskcon contrary to Srila Prabhupadas instructions.

You never answered my question Veda,did you ever get paid for your devotional service?

Veda:

"if youre out of ISKCON whos forcing you to pay?

Funny how outside folks are the loudest reformers. Thats as good as barking of dogs"

I am very much inside of iskcon but not conforming to the artificial,deviant and insolent standards set up by your masters.That is the meaning of me being OUT.There would be more outside people on the inside if you and your masters have not kicked them out for not conforming to your norms.

"Unlike you, I use arguments. You simply proclaim."

"maybe you should start your own movement"

I started moving in the direction of my founder acharyas wishes.Does that count?

"i never took as much as a dime for my service to isknon.did you veda"

0

"Do you have to write each par or sentence in a new entry? Looks like SGD."

Attention span of some of us here is less than a paragraph at the time so I need to make it concise.
Say for instance Srila Prabhupada says:"Those who can give voluntary service, '93Welcome.'94 Otherwise we don'92t require." .....and neither you nor ccd nor many others can remember it for longer than a second at the time.

"wages for monks?"

"Give a list of those monks."

These are highly guarded secrets my friend but it is enough that we both refer to the GBC (your masters)statements of approval of the same and the whole mystery is resolved.The only problem is knowing exact amounts since they are strictly guarded.We can only observe our full time temple managers pulling in the temple driveways in the costly new cars and needing the lavish accommodations since they are "volunteering" so hard.Occasional trekking expeditions to Kilimanjaro are there just to keep their selfless spirits strong and healthy.

[quote][cite] jagannath:[/cite]ccd :"I never said I "worked" for ISKCON, I am a volunteer"

So should everybody else.That is Srila Prabhupadas IDEA.[/quote] Actually it is not exactly true, some devotees are officers, not volunteers, they are under oath to ISKCON. Have you ever been an officer of ISKCON? Prabhupada actually paid some of his disciples and considered paying salaries to outsiders. But not a "salary" in exchange of service of preaching. Salaries to pujaris is culturally established thing, but it is called donations or maintenance, one reason to have a salary is because it is cheaper than to maintain a large family of a grihastha these days... reality check.

:"Those who can give voluntary service, '93Welcome.'94 Otherwise we don'92t require." .....and neither you nor ccd nor many others can remember it for longer than a second at the time.

"....some devotees are officers, not volunteers, they are under oath to ISKCON."

so,where does it say they should be paid?

"Have you ever been an officer of ISKCON?"

no,have you? do SP pay any "officers"?Quote please.

Are those officers not volunteers?

"Prabhupada actually paid some of his disciples and considered paying salaries to outsiders."

Outsiders I understand.They are not devotees/volunteers.to substantiate your claim you will need to furnish us with some tangible quotes.Mere waffle will not prove any points.

"Salaries to pujaris is culturally established thing, but it is called donations or maintenance"

Cullturaly,where?In Prabhupadas iskcon

"Those who can give voluntary service, '93Welcome.'94 Otherwise we don'92t require."

"one reason to have a salary is because it is cheaper than to maintain a large family of a grihastha these days... reality check."

'93'85But the temple should not provide them with salary to enjoy their life'85But what is this? They are given high salary. Because his service is essential--'94All right, you take apartment.'94'85.You take prasadam. But why salary? Where is the question of salary? Where is vairagya, renouncement? So in all circumstances the salary process should be stopped. One who wants salary, he can work outside'85In Los Angeles it is very freely going on. In the name of Vaisnavism they are drawing salary, living comfortably, having sense enjoyment. This is not good, not at all. So you all high officers, you think over it and do the needful'94
(Srila Prabhupada Room Conversation, 28/4/77)

Reality beckons.

He did, occasionally, it is no publicised widely. Official policy was "no salary".

"He did, occasionally, it is no publicized widely. "

Just as I assumed,pure waffle.

"Official policy was "no salary".

I rest my case.

> I argued point of defending the current salary system instituted in iskcon contrary to Srila Prabhupadas instructions."

Where in ISKCON? In CZ it doesnt exist.

> You never answered my question Veda,did you ever get paid for your devotional service?"

I wrote 0. Zero, nothing, nil... Get someone to explain it.

> I am very much inside of iskcon but not conforming to the artificial,deviant and insolent standards set up by your masters.That is the meaning of me being OUT.There would be more outside people on the inside if you and your masters have not kicked them out for not conforming to your norms.

This is an interesting idea, inside yet outside. I call it manoratha though.
"Not conforming", "your masters": Maybe you should read what SP said about GBCs authority.
Why do you want to be in corrupt ISKCON in the first place? Start your own just as SP left GM to start ISKCON without criticizing this and that. He followed his guru on this:

--

Despite bewailing the plight of the organization he had founded, Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati
never commented disparagingly about it, for he did not accept that the quintessential Gaudiya Matha
could be polluted by the misbehavior of any delinquent members. He delineated the difference between genuine disciples and motivated followers, between the real, transcendental Gaudiya Matha and its outer semblance:

(Bhaktivikasa Swami, Sri Bhaktisiddhanta Vaibhava, ch. 5)

--

> I started moving in the direction of my founder acharyas wishes.Does that count?

Ok, report tangible results.

> Attention span of some of us here is less than a paragraph at the time so I need to make it concise.

Do you speak about specific people? So far it seems its only you with short attention span.

> Say for instance Srila Prabhupada says:"Those who can give voluntary service, '93Welcome.'94 Otherwise we don'92t require." .....and neither you nor ccd nor many others can remember it for longer than a second at the time.

I feel like Im wasting my time trying to give examples of situations when the only choices are to either outsource expensively, do it cheaper inside or close the show down. Yet youre still attached to monastery life situation in 70s which is long gone. Its called social development. Varnasrama cant be done in one temple. It takes at least a village, better a city.

> These are highly guarded secrets

As good as nothing.

> new cars... lavish accommodations... trekking expeditions to Kilimanjaro

Do I detect an unspoken envy?

> "In Los Angeles it is very freely going on."

So the question is who established it? This conversation needs context.

Tamala Krsna: Actually, even if you dont give a salary, if you give an apartment and you give food and you give all these other things for someone to maintain his household life...
Prabhupada: Because his service is essential.

SP allows apartment, prasadam and _all these other things_ for devotees doing essential service. What are _all these other things_? How the devotees paid for transport, doctors, etc.?

[quote][cite] VEDA:[/cite]"ccd: Minimal wage is a law in some countries."

Yep, SP wanted ISKCON to follow local laws.[/quote]

[p]Minimum wage is law in many countries, but that only applies to people who take wages/salaries, in all modern westernized countries that have minimal wage laws they also rely heavily on volunteer workers for religious organizations, charity organizations, even hospitals have them and sporting events. Service to man is a fundamental human right upheld in the United Nations Charter and signed to and accepted by all countries of the world. Who would refuse volunteers? Not the poorest country in the world or the wealthiest country in the world USA. Volunteer service in no way breaks any minimal wage laws they are totally separate and do not conflict.[/p]

[p] ccd and VEDA that is a baseless argument does not have one shred of truth about it, you cannot dodge Srila Prabhupada on this subject. Arguing on points like this proves you are simply avoiding the truth and completely ignoring Srila Prabhupadas emphatic statements on the issue. [/p]

[p]Srila Prabupada "Those who can give voluntary service, '93Welcome.'94 Otherwise we don'92t require."[/p]

[p]This means if you are taking salary/wages/maintenance/financial aid other than apartment and prasadam then you are not required in Iskcon and Srila Prabhupada stated that boldy because money in exchange for service = ZERO BHAKTI and also the temple is not there to pay you it is there for you to donate to it, that is vedic culture not this crazy materialistic scene we see in Iskcon[/p]

[p]
VEDA>>Funny how outside folks are the loudest reformers. Thats as good as barking of dogs[/p]

[p]
No the one that yelled the loudest on this issue was Srila Prabhupada. Either you are accepting the Guru in full or you are deviating[/p]

[quote][cite] ccd:[/cite]He did, occasionally, it is no publicised widely. Official policy was "no salary".[/quote]

[p] ccd always comes up with crap like this when he debates himself into a corner, he thinks he was privy to a deeper set of rules, its all garbage ccd either provide quotes by Srila Prabhupada or give up on this nonsense. Instead of defending Srila Prabhupadas written word he would rather offer up obscure things that no one can check. This is the tendency in Iskcon, they would rather argue and refute Srila Prabhupadas written or recorded words and then muddy the waters by talking about some obscure thing that may or may not have happened that was never documented.[/p]

> '93'85But the temple should not provide them with salary to enjoy their life'85But what is this? They are given high salary. Because his service is essential--'94All right, you take apartment.'94'85.You take prasadam. But why salary? Where is the question of salary? Where is vairagya, renouncement? So in all circumstances the salary process should be stopped. One who wants salary, he can work outside'85In Los Angeles it is very freely going on. In the name of Vaisnavism they are drawing salary, living comfortably, having sense enjoyment. This is not good, not at all. So you all high officers, you think over it and do the needful'94
(Srila Prabhupada Room Conversation, 28/4/77)

> I feel like Im wasting my time trying to give examples of situations when the only choices are to either outsource expensively, do it cheaper inside or close the show down. Yet youre still attached to monastery life situation in 70s which is long gone. Its called social development.

I think you might mean "deviation".

VEDA>>> I feel like Im wasting my time trying to give examples of situations when the only choices are to either outsource expensively, do it cheaper inside or close the show down.Yet youre still attached to monastery life situation in 70s which is long gone. Its called social development. Varnasrama cant be done in one temple. It takes at least a village, better a city.

What has volunteering got to do with the 70s and Varnashrama Dhama? Its a concept that has existed throughout time and always will, it emanates from the spritual world. It is independant of any religion, time or place simply to give without no thought of return it is so pure it is a spritual act and that is why when it is performed in the context of devotional service to Radha & Krishna it re-awakens the original relationship to serve with love and devotion.

VEDA You keep stressing there is only three options 1) Expensive Outsourcing, 2) Pay inside members & 3) Close the show down ... how about the fourth option Srila Prabhupadas orders Volunteer, bhakti, love and devotion.

> No the one that yelled the loudest on this issue was Srila Prabhupada. Either you are accepting the Guru in full or you are deviating

SP wasnt an outside reformer, he was the Founder-Acarya.

You simply cant understand that despite all his orders the situation has changed in due course of time. Brahmacaris turned into grhasthas.

mung: Deviation? Man, then I wont disturb you anymore, sleep on. But maybe someone else with a bit of brain will get what I try to say.

> how about the fourth option Srila Prabhupadas orders Volunteer, bhakti, love and devotion.

Volunteering is great, I support it 108% ! I told you bring those volunteers, ideally starting with those for the BBT. Theyre badly needed.

funny that those who do not believe in service for free, block it making themselves the elite, and when confronted to change, tell others "you do it". In spanish we say "does not eat and does not let others eat".
read "Drive" from Daniel Pink and you will understand what motivates people to do excellent work, happily and for free.
sucess example: Wikipedia
failure example: Encarta

mishra, I dont see anyone who "doesnt believe in free d.s." here. Can you quote such claims?

Wikipedia is a great idea. I contribute to it in _en_, _cz_ and occassionally _it_ languages since 2005. I wish more devotees were there. But they prefer talking and arguing in forums and blogs.

And theres also in-house Vanipedia just for SP books.

So manasi, mung and others, heres your chance. Deeds speak louder than words.

[quote][cite] VEDA:[/cite]> I am very much inside of iskcon but not conforming to the artificial,deviant and insolent standards set up by your masters.That is the meaning of me being OUT.There would be more outside people on the inside if you and your masters have not kicked them out for not conforming to your norms.

This is an interesting idea, inside yet outside. I call it manoratha though.[br]
"Not conforming", "your masters": Maybe you should read what SP said about GBCs authority.[br]
Why do you want to be in corrupt ISKCON in the first place?[/quote]

I have heard that some devotees interpret the instruction "never leave ISKCON" to mean that one is supposed to stay in ISKCON, even if one finds it corrupt, and strive to change it from within, in a subversive manner, so to speak. I met one such devotee too, who officially functioned as a pujari in an ISKCON temple, but was from Swami Tripuaris camp.[br]
(This was one of the most disturbing experiences I have had with devotees.)[br][br]

[quote][cite] manasi_seva:[/cite][quote][cite] ccd:[/cite]He did, occasionally, it is no publicised widely. Official policy was "no salary".[/quote]

[p] ccd always comes up with crap like this when he debates himself into a corner, he thinks he was privy to a deeper set of rules, its all garbage ccd either provide quotes by Srila Prabhupada or give up on this nonsense. Instead of defending Srila Prabhupadas written word he would rather offer up obscure things that no one can check. This is the tendency in Iskcon, they would rather argue and refute Srila Prabhupadas written or recorded words and then muddy the waters by talking about some obscure thing that may or may not have happened that was never documented.[/p][/quote]

It is very unkind of you to speak like that.

to believe that others can and should do free d.s. its easy.

i am taliking about example given by authorities, yad yad acarati.

it can be done by example and subscribing the clear statements like the one SP made, not trying to obscure them with word jugglery.'a0

responsability always rests on leaders, a good leader always thinks its his fault and therefore improves and meets success.'a0

it can be true that you Veda did not take any salary, but you are defending the ones that do and that probably is worse.

So, to say, "you do it" while access to power is restricted by those who failed for some 40 years now, its the classical approach but does not stand.

I have been sankirtan leader, temple president starting a temple from scratch.I am maintaining my family with books since 30 years and have managerial and technical skills, not just words.

Tell the leaders I am ofering to access a managerial post just 'a0for 3 months to see the results, all free of charge. The will say NO, probably saying that i am offensive because I write politically incorrect posts on the internet or some other etherea And basselessl argument. The reality is POWER greed.

They wont do it right, will not let others and complain of non colaboraci'f3n all the while.

VEDA, you are intelligent, cant see the material world omnipresent trending?

mishra, you dont read me. I speak about what there is, you about what there should be. The ideal is known.

Restricted power is irrelevant. I gave an example of SP who left GM and started ISKCON. Anyone who considers ISKCON irreformable can try to follow that.

Publish all details and evidence that wont be possible to disregard and refute. Politically incorrect posts arent solving anything.

Trends are toward degradation. Many talking, few doing. No surprise.

As far as Iskcon is concerned it all started with Srila Prabhupada and that is where it ended. His following statement is the beginning and end of the issue:

Srila Prabhupada: "So you cannot violate this. Those who can give voluntary service, '93Welcome.'94 Otherwise we don'92t require"

Voluntary service goes hand in hand with devotional service, one does not get paid to perform loving devotional service. It is a contradiction of terms. You cannot be surrendered and attached at the same time. Srila Prabhupadas quotes are very clear you either follow them or you deviate from them. This is not a deep issue, if Iskcon is struggling with such a basic ethic then the show is already over.

VEDA>>Trends are toward degradation

Yes I agree its the degredation of a once spiritual society. Just not something I thought I would see in my lifetime.

[quote][cite] manasi_seva:[/cite]As far as Iskcon is concerned it all started with Srila Prabhupada and that is where it ended. His following statement is the beginning and end of the issue:

Srila Prabhupada: "So you cannot violate this. Those who can give voluntary service, '93Welcome.'94 Otherwise we don'92t require"

Voluntary service goes hand in hand with devotional service, one does not get paid to perform loving devotional service. It is a contradiction of terms. You cannot be surrendered and attached at the same time. Srila Prabhupadas quotes are very clear you either follow them or you deviate from them. This is not a deep issue, if Iskcon is struggling with such a basic ethic then the show is already over.

VEDA>>Trends are toward degradation

Yes I agree its the degredation of a once spiritual society. Just not something I thought I would see in my lifetime.[/quote]

What exactly is the problem?[br][br]

I am getting the impression sometimes that what you really want is that ISKCON behave as you want it to, or that it should cease to exist.

Veda,I have taken my time to write extensive,point by point arguments against all of your claims but than I realized that if you are not able to understand or even hear most benevolent and compelling instructions directly given by a pure devotee like Srila Prabhupada ,than every one of us on this forum is bound to be unsuccessful
in debating with you.

Srila Prabhupada was in no way motivated in his approach,I cant claim to be so.I wish you all the best.

jagannath, so you are a prophet now. Great.
My reply to mishra is meant for you too. Either you understand or not.

manasi, we still didnt hear from you which ISKCON you mean. I said this is not the problem of ISKCON CZ and probably of most Europe.

2007-II-107 Salaries in ISKCON
Hridaya Caitanya dasa, Praghosa dasa and Syamasundar dasa (as the coordinator) will work on a paper covering the area of salaries within ISKCON. They will aim to complete this work by next years ELM meeting.

www.eurogbc.com/content/prabhupadadesh-2007+iskcon+uk+salaries&cd=9&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=ie&client=firefox-a

Teaching Position in Bhaktivedanta Manor School
-salary negotiable
http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:tTgHSbju7SsJ:iskconeducation.org/index.php%3Fp%3Dnews%26id%3D16+bhaktivedanta+manor+salaries&
cd=9&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=ie&client=firefox-a

From such a humble beginning, this well rewarded corporate devotee is now luxuriating with a nice Fat Salary of US $50,000 + annually / cruises around in a US $30,000 company car / resides in a comfortable 5 bedroom house (which he will own on completion of his contract) / and last but not least, he will retire with a nice fat pension plan.

prabhupadavision.com/2010/11/open-letter-tamohara/+bhaktivedanta+manor+salaries&cd=11&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=ie&client=firefox-a

5. Given the instructions by His Divine Grace concerning salaries,
once again to be found in His letters and other sources,
would the ISKCON UK management please explain
why undisclosed salaries are paid to the "employees" at Bhaktivedanta Manor
(Srila Prabhupadas temple)?

www.harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/09-08/editorials3286.htm+bhaktivedanta+manor+salaries&cd=12&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=ie&client=firefox-a

Nov 8 2010 Employment Opportunity - Hare Krishna School, Murwillumbah, NSW
Vinod Bihari das: The Bhaktivedanta Swami Gurukula School is currently seeking to employ a full time Primary School Teacher. This is a full time salaried position. It is also a wonderful opportunity to serve Srila Prabhupada, the younger devotee generation and the future of ISKCON.

www.dandavats.com/%3Fcat%3D10+bhaktivedanta+manor+salaries&cd=20&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=ie&client=firefox-a

Where have all the Krishnas gone?
More cash-conscious than counterculture, the Hare Krishnas are changing their marketing plan and going mainstream

By Dorie Clark

www.rickross.com/reference/krishna/krishna34.html+bhaktivedanta+manor+salaries&cd=26&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=ie&client=firefox-a

uc0u65279 u65279 u65279 u65279 '93Recently we had to contribute $60,000 to the legal case in USA. When we discussed sending the money many devotees who work very hard to raise it, asked '91what about Gurus, Sannyasis and leaders who have accumulated gifted money, will they be contributing anything?'92 And they were serious because there is talk about individuals especially sannyasis and Gurus having amassed gifted money.'94
(Gauri Das, '91Financial disclosures by ISKCON leaders'92, January 4th, 2004)

'93Why salary? Krsna'92s servant. We are eternal servant. That is the beauty of our institution. We have no hired men. Unless one is sincere, why he'92ll work?
(Srila Prabhupada Room Conversation, August 3rd, 1976)

'93Regarding the restaurant, why they should get salary? There should be no salary. You are working without salary, so why they should take. They are not very important men. So after this month arrange for no one to get any salary there. That will be nice.'94
(Srila Prabhupada Letter, July 16th, 1975)

VEDA>>manasi, we still didnt hear from you which ISKCON you mean. I said this is not the problem of ISKCON CZ and probably of most Europe.

UK is paying salaries VEDA and last time I checked UK is in the EURO sector.

It will make no difference VEDA which part of Iskcon you belong to, all zones are controlled by the GBC and they all sanction salary oh sorry not salary MAINTENANCE. Eventually everyone will be on the payroll. The corruption starts at the top and is now slowly filtering down through the rank and file. Of course it depends on income, if the temple has little income they cannot afford to payout salaries.

It will also define how important to Iskcon you are, if you are really talented and important you will be on the payroll. So as we see right now devotees or should I say money minded people are coming fourth demanding salaries.

Eventually it will work against the institution, as word gets out local communities especially the Indian communities will refuse to donate knowing that a good proportion of the funds will go into the pockets of individuals and not into Srila Prabhupadas mission.

This is not to say that there are no sincere devotees who will refuse to take salary and can easily see the contradiction in taking salary and professing to be a devotee, the question is how long can a sincere devotee stay in an institution that continues to trend towards degradation and deviation from the founder acharyas teachings?

manasi, again too vague and repetitive.

jagannath, read this:

Letter to: Mohanananda:
'97
Bombay
13 October, 1973
73-10-13
Dallas
My Dear Mohanananda Das:
Please accept my blessings. I beg to acknowledge receipt of your letter dated September 26, 1973 and have noted the contents carefully. In my opinion all Gurukula students should be educated free of charge, but outside students may be charged. Our own parents should without obligation contribute liberally, but we should not be hard with them if they cannot pay. Sometimes the parents get money from the Welfare Dept., so whatever money they get for their children must be paid to Gurukula.

770419rc.bom
Prabhupada: Yes. And that money should be reserved for their world propaganda, scientific. And this gurukula should be by local subscription, in this way. And settle up this by paying them also compensative, and begin immediately. And you acquire those lands immediately. They are ready to give. Take.

Letter to: Bhavatarini
'97
Bombay
3 April, 1974
74-04-01

If you are actually going to receive $24,000 I think the best thing is to contribute it to the Mayapur-Vrindaban Trust Fund which you can do either in the U.S. or in India. ...
You have already done much service in raising two children and sending them to Gurukula, so you should not be so disturbed by temporary inconveniences. You can also arrange from this contribution to go on paying tuition for your children at Gurukula, as far as possible

Letter to: Jagadisa
'97
Mayapur
22 January, 1976
76-01-22

Actually it is the responsibility of the parents to maintain Gurukula. By taxing the Temples or taking loan from the BBT the parents are being allowed to avoid their responsibility. Before having a child the parents should see whether they shall be able to pay for their childs education. The GBC should make an injunction that if they beget children, then whatever the expenses are for supporting Gurukula they must pay for it.

Letter to: Jayatirtha
'97
Mayapur
22 January, 1976
76-01-22

So let all the grhasthas who wish to, execute business full-fledgedly in the USA and in this way support Gurukula. Business must be done by the grhasthas, not by the sannyasis or brahmacaris. Neither the sannyasis or brahmacaris can be expected to support Gurukula. The parents must take responsibility for their children, otherwise they should not have children. It is the duty of the individual parents. I am not in favor of taxing the Temples. The parents must pay for the maintenance of their children. Neither can the BBT be expected to give any loans.

Sorry VEDA, I dont see anything in your qoutes about permitting devotees to receive salary. I see very practical instructions that grhasthas should pay for the maintenance/education of their children instead of the cost being born by the temple.

deena, it refers to the paid school which jagannath gave as an example of deviation. Unless schoolteachers can live on prana and teach under trees, they need money in the form of daksina (the Vedic ideal) or some form of fixed income (with exception of the retired and wealthy mentioned above).

[quote][cite] VEDA:[/cite]deena, it refers to the paid school which jagannath gave as an example of deviation. Unless schoolteachers can live on prana and teach under trees, they need money in the form of daksina (the Vedic ideal) or some form of fixed income (with exception of the retired and wealthy mentioned above).[/quote]

'93Regarding the restaurant, why they should get salary? There should be no salary. You are working without salary, so why they should take. They are not very important men. So after this month arrange for no one to get any salary there. That will be nice.'94
(Srila Prabhupada Letter, July 16th, 1975)

Iskcon should give the schools away, they are not setup to teach properly and the children come out being way behind other children of their age. It has been known for along time that Iskcons schools have failed at every level and most have been closed and rightfully so.

The only things schools have done for Iskcon is to nearly get them sued for 400 million dollars over embarrasing sexual abuse. Not to say all or any of the abuse was done by school teachers. But it created places that these predators aimed for.

I am not sure whether such a development can be avoided, though.
I do not know of any organization (or institution or however we wish to conceptualize it) which 1. has persisted continuously over a longer period of time, 2. on a relatively large geographic area, 3. with an increasing membership, 4. while fully retaining the original spirit.

Entities that grow experience change, sometimes very unpredictable and negative(-seeming).

[quote][cite] mishra:[/cite]funny that those who do not believe in service for free, block it making themselves the elite, and when confronted to change, tell others "you do it". In spanish we say "does not eat and does not let others eat".[/quote]

As for elites: Perhaps (organized) Vaisnavism is indeed reserved for elites who are wealthy enough to afford to participate wihout being concerned over how to make ends meet.[br][br]

Probably everyone can do something about their God consciousness, even their Krishna consciousness, but not everyone can be a functioning member of a spiritual society/organization/institution.[br][br]
I find though that, for example, the RCC is far more accessible to a wide variety of people than ISKCON.

Yes. There is a lot more work to be done in this regard. It is true that KC was originally reserved for wealthy or completely retired types. People also tend to be less flexible in this regard, and do not actually want to make KC to be more accessible to "wide variety" of people (except in words that is).

You will not locate it in folio, but Prabhupada said to JPS to "learn" from RCC specifically as far as organization is concerned. Of course there are a lot we could have learned from RCC at the time and avoid a lot of trouble too, but hey, learning is hard, repeating like a parrot is easier.

[quote][cite] ccd:[/cite]You will not locate it in folio, but Prabhupada said to JPS to "learn" from RCC specifically as far as organization is concerned. Of course there are a lot we could have learned from RCC at the time and avoid a lot of trouble too, but hey, learning is hard, repeating like a parrot is easier.[/quote]

[p]"You will not locate it in folio"[p]

[p]ccd, so what you mean to say is although it wasnt recorded and no one can prove [b]Srila[/b] Prabhupada said it?[/p]

There are a lot of things that Prabhupada said, that are recorded in different format but are not on the folio. There are also a lot of things that Prabhupada said that are on the folio, and that he did not say, that are on the folio. Some things he said are not recorded or lost. Some videos are lost, or not available to archives. In this case it was Japataka and Bhavananda who were walking with Srila Prabhupada when Prabhupada discussed management with them. A lot of times management meetings and talks were not recorded, but there is a record in the diaries of those who were present. An example of things that Prabhupada definitely said and you have zero access is the tapes that are not released, not transcribed, the bengali portions of his conversations, all his Hindi lectures and hindi remarks, etc., to think that "everything" is in the folio is to live in illusion. Even some of his books are not on the folio. Huh.

As soon as money gets involved, everything is spoiled (speaking from experience).

Id change it to: "As soon as money gets upper hand,..." since even the best idea without money isnt even heard.