Pariprashnena — Q&A Archive

>I agree. It is an unfair situation, like being subjected to a monologue by a dictator.

You cannot be serious Baker....how can hearing the Holy names be in any way unfair....its unfair that a soul DOESN"T hear the Holy names....actually its a crime.

And yes....Krsna is the dictator and He will continue to dictate in this material world....regardless of what mundane vision we have of His devotees sincere attempts to spread His glories.

It is not about the fact that devotees go out in the street and sing, it is about _how_ they do it.

If a devotee approaches me all loud and aggressive, I have little reason to hope that any subsequent communication with him or her will be in a more amiable mood.
When someone approaches me in such an aggressive manner, this gives me reason to consider and fear that I am going to be bullied and even abused. And moreover, in the name of God, and that I am supposed to just accept it.

Once, I saw devotees chanting, playing and dancing in the street. My first thought was that they must have been drunk, because they sounded so loud, almost violent. It was only as I noticed how well they balanced in their flip-flops as they jumped up and down that I concluded that they probably werent drunk.

I suppose with such loud and aggressive singing, playing and dancing there is a group of people that can be attracted, like those who like to go to rock concerts.
But not everyone is like that.

Baker...my response was to your comment "It is an unfair situation" in relation to the devotees chanting on Metro trains. The result of this preaching is that there was an increase in people coming to the temple and actually people in Norway actually liking the devotees preaching in this way (in no way aggressive or loud).

>It is not about the fact that devotees go out in the street and sing, it is about _how_ they do it.

Well, the original comment was in relation to devotees chanting in Metro trains or buses (not in the street) and whether that is a good thing....not sure why you now talk about how they do it.

So, my point is that sometimes our own mundane vision of a particular way of preaching can be clouded by what we ourselves wouldnt like to see....but in fact the situation is very different and the devotees are effective in their preaching activities.

I am also sure that some people think its "unfair" that devotees chant in the streets where they are forced to hear the Holy names or leave...in fact we used to get many complaints from shop owners about the chanting....how they couldnt escape because they had to remain in their shop - so does that mean we dont chant Harinama in the streets?

You could say for the shopkeepers its unfair but as we all know its of great benefit that they hear the Holy names...and in fact many of those shopkeepers ended up being very favourable to the devotees and used to come out to give donations.
So Baker, dont underestimate the positive effect that the Holy names can have on people....as for the others that never become favourable....they never will appreciate the Holy names or the devotees so let them be as they are and we can continue preaching.

The lesson seems to be....try some new preaching idea (as Srila Prabhupada encouraged his disciples to do) and see the results. I am sure there were some that didnt think selling books in Airports was a good idea...people dont want to be disturbed on their way to/from a flight, but actually the result was very positive and Srila Prabhupada encouraged it to the extent that he told his disciples to fight in court to continue it.

Most people will never visit a temple and will never read Srila Prabhupadas books, harinama plants a seed in the hearts of these people. People deep in the mode of ignorance do not like to see devotees on harinama and mis-interpret their jubilant dancing for drunkeness or mad people, so the devotees very presence is experienced as an agitation to these people. Its a bit like a doctor trying to wake up a patient in a coma.

I myself first saw devotees performing harinama when I was twelve, I was exiting a festival fair ground when I observed 10-12 devotees performing harinam, some hooligans were dancing inbetween them making fun of them. This scene effected me alot. who were these people in robes? what was the food they were freely giving out? Why did they chant this Hare Krishna? Why did they look so blissful? I knew one day I would get answers to these questions. But I did not know one day I would be on the same home streets performing harinam.

I have seen some bizarre scenes on harinam, I once saw a perfectly normal looking man and wife walking towards the harinam party and the wife started to scream, she raised her hands and struck at the mridanga player smashing the clay drum. She then ran inside a shop holding her hands over her ears while her husband looked on in total confusion over her actions.

Harinam always gets reactions, mostly good. Most people even if they have no interest enjoy seeing other people in a blissful state and smile and cheer or wave. But you always see the few that get angry as the holy name penetrates their world of ignorance and occasionally some get violent. Just the same as in the times of Chaitanya Mahaprabhu.

Sound vibration is a very powerful thing it conveys the mood of the individual/s transmitting it, we all know this to be a fact just by listening to normal music. On a spiritual level it is even more powerful and far reaching, if the devotees are blissed out in a transcendental state it will transmit that mood along with the power of the holy name to the recipient which can have deep life changing implications.

Rasa108 -

I do not think there is much point in trying to continue discussion with you.

How devotees go about presenting their religion is always a factor.

I am speaking here as someone from the audience, I do not consider myself a devotee.

What do you know what is going on in us, if you trivialize and "spiritualize away" all the concerns or objections we might have?

You are a my-way-or-the-highway kind of person, so what can I say?

>I do not think there is much point in trying to continue discussion with you.

LOL....so why are you continuing with the discussion?

>What do you know what is going on in us, if you trivialize and "spiritualize away" all the concerns or >objections we might have?

The negative comment originally came from a devotee on Facebook and got me thinking about her point of view. I investigated further and found out actually that the public responded positively....so no-one is spiritualising or trivialising anything away.

So again my point is - we are in no position to judge the good preaching efforts of others....esp. if the result is that more people come to the temple. Lets not superimpose our own mundane view of preaching based on what we like/dislike ourselves....lets first see the results - and if they are good, then admit our own shortcomings and praise and support that preaching. If the result is negative (for the majority of people)....then yes, we make a change.

>You are a my-way-or-the-highway kind of person, so what can I say?

If you read the post carefully....you will see that this is the preaching of devotees in Norway and not my idea or way....I wouldnt consider myself a  "my way or highway" person in any respect....in fact I like to take different points of view and investigate to see if they are valid.

Yes there is a difference between many people in the train or on the bus. But all souls will be equally benefited by the holy name. The mental image is different depending of conditioning, and we can not deny it is important. But there is an absolute level at which all souls are benefited, more they hear, more they are benefited. Regardless of the mental or sensual image these souls will have.

Some people are non-committal by definition. Yes they have a habit to never commit, and yes they may be "not liking" what someone is forcing his "beliefs" on them. But on absolute lever the soul is benefited by punya-sravana-kirtanam, regardless. Baker may be non-committal by her social or spiritual habits and may build her life on it. Always afraid of being vulnerable or diverted by others. Yes there are people like that, but still souls are benefited by chanting, and maybe next life she may have a more committed type of mind or karma. So for people like that, it is yet very beneficial to be exposed to the holy name, even if she mistakes it to be "one of many" denominations who push on you the "truth".

The difference between us is that you see things only from the perspective of the devotees, while I am coming from the perspective of a newcomer/outsider.

 

I feel boxed in when a religious person has a go at me with their preaching, in whatever form, it doesnt matter to me whether it is a devotee, a JW, a Mormon or whomever.

And I know I am not the only one who feels this way.

>The difference between us is that you see things only from the perspective of the devotees, while I am >coming from the perspective of a newcomer/outsider.

Actually, the Facebook comment you agreed with came from a very experienced devotee (which is very surprising to me)....so the comment this whole discussion is based on comes from this source and not an outsider.

I am not sure if your reference "when a religious person has a go at me" refers to the example in this discussion (i.e., the harinama on Norways Metro trains), I assume not.

>I think it is very very wrong to judge people by ones first impressions of them.

And I think its very very wrong to judge devotees preaching by ones first impression....in this case the impression was that people are boxed in and couldnt escape and that was judged unfair....in actuality, the people of Norway like the devotees and in fact starting coming to the temple as a result of their preaching.

manasi_seva > ". But you always see the few that get angry as the holy name penetrates
their world of ignorance and occasionally some get violent."

I think this is rather simplistic.
How do you know what is actually going on in those people? How many have you studied in depth?
What do you know about their previous experiences with devotees, and theists and religion in general?

Perhaps they are attracted, but are afraid they will be abused again.
Or they are attracted, but are worried that they will not be accepted by the devotees.

Other than gross anti-theism, there is a number of reasons why people are reluctant about God that have little or nothing to do with God, but with the people who (claim to) represent God.

I think it is very very wrong to judge people by ones first impressions of them.

I lived in NYC and street performers where very common on trains and train stations. People seemed to appreciate all the different street performs regardless of the type of music. Provided life in very monotonous setting. Perhaps the commenter had never been in such a setting, but at least in NYC it was common place.

nice bhajan. In America the sweets would probably have been ziplocked with a flyer on once side and ingredients the other

I personally get very inspired to see how devotees spread the Holy names in different countries....the London bus Harinama (I think this idea came from Peru, where they actually take the Deities of Jagannatha, Baladeva and Subhadra onboard the bus) seems to be effective as is the Metro Yoga approach in Norway (that most likely wouldnt work in the UK, as the subway train are very small and crowded and the mentality of the people is very different).

BTW - I sent this negative comment to Acyutananda dasa (who organises the Harinama preaching in Norway) asking him about the response from the people there....here was his reply:

"Hare Krishna Prabhu,
Most people like it, and many new persons comes too temple because of this. After we have done this in december everyday, just one personwas negative.
And thats almost nothing :-).When we stop playing people clapping their hands this is succesfull in oslo norway."

So we can see actually the response is very good in Norway for Harinama on the Metro trains. I think we have to be careful not to impose our own views on the preaching efforts of devotees in other countries (according to what we ourselves find acceptable or not, as the Facebook comment indicates).....but actually the people in the Norway example responded favourably and in fact more people starting coming to the temple. I especially liked the fact that these devotees, as well as freely distributing the Holy names, were distributing prasadam for free.  

"Lord Caitanya personally traveled all over India for 6 years. His program was simply kirtana and prasadam distribution.
Lord Caitanya never spoke philosophy in public. When he met big scholars like Sarvabhauma Bhattacarya he spoke philosophy, otherwise for the mass of people, kirtana and prasadam distribution. So continue this program, it is very pleasing to Lord Caitanya."

Letter to Mahamsa Maharaja
17 December, 1975

Getting back to the point....as we can see from this example, the people of Norway actually became enlivened by the Harinam on the Metro trains and there was an increase in people visiting the temple....isnt this what preaching is about?

We can super-impose our own mundane perceptions of something, but the result speaks for itself....more souls coming to Krsna!!

As mentioned before, this obviously wouldnt go down well in all countries...therefore things are adjusted as in London where they have their own bus with open roof where they drive around and chant....also in Peru this is done with Lord Jagannatha onboard.

Who are we to judge the efforts of sincere devotees who are attempting to spread the Holy names...and at the same time fail to acknowledge the good results of such preaching.

> Yes, they can get up and leave, and they will leave with a bad memory.

If theyre under tamo guna, its for sure.

[quote][cite] rasa108:[/cite]
[quote]I will be in the minority. I dont like this--you have a captive audience, you are forcing people to listen, in an enclosed space--they are not being given the choice. Yes, they can get up and leave, and they will leave with a bad memory.[/quote][br][/quote]

I agree. It is an unfair situation, like being subjected to a monologue by a dictator.

[quote][cite] VEDA:[/cite]> Yes, they can get up and leave, and they will leave with a bad memory.
[br]
If theyre under tamo guna, its for sure.[/quote]

Some people react to the fact that something is being forced on them, not to the content of it - although when something is being forced, this force can be a part of the content as well.[br][br]
Anything or anyone that is loud, boisterous, scares me and elicits only the fight or flight response in me.[br]
If a party of loud devotees would come onto a bus/train I were on, I would try to leave, or watch from a safe distance.[br]
I would appreciate a slow, moderate, pathetic kirtana in a public space, though.[br][br]

Moreover, call it being under tamo guna, if you must, but some people simply have a pretty good idea of how much they can safely take in, how much internal turmoil they can afford. Some people probably have a very good intuition that their life as they know it would be shattered to pieces if they were to listen to the devotees for too long, and also, that later, they would be left to themselves to pick up the pieces - and that the devotees cannot be counted on to help in this. So it can be better to leave.

Therere so many sounds and pictures forced on us in cities and people dont run away. Its in the gunas.
Yes, intuition (Paramatma) alarms them. Its an instant reaction. The rest is your fantasy. 8)

[quote][cite] VEDA:[/cite]Therere so many sounds and pictures forced on us in cities and people dont run away. Its in the gunas.[/quote]

Yes, we do run away, be it physically or by blocking out the sounds by listening to mp3 players, blocking out the sights by not looking.
[br][br]

[quote]Yes, intuition (Paramatma) alarms them. Its an instant reaction. [/quote]

What can a person who does not have your kind of faith and knowledge do with such an explanation??
[br][br]

[quote]The rest is your fantasy.[/quote]

What exactly is my "fantasy"?

Feeling or voice in the heart is well known.

The one about people and pieces.

[quote][cite] VEDA:[/cite]Feeling or voice in the heart is well known.[/quote]

But not an unconditional trust in this voice.

[br][br]
[quote]The one about people and pieces.[/quote]

I am talking from my own experience.[br]
People who are into spirituality/religion have a tendency to throw a bomb onto someones life, so to speak, to throw them in at the deep end - and then leave them there.

Yes, sadhus have an ability to change the life of people just by mere presence. What to speak if people participate in an exchange. Truly humble sadhu will be able to use any opportunity to change the course of samsara for all conditioned souls, after all all such souls are in captivity, on the bus or not on the bus. Yes followup is usually left for Krishna to deal with, and He does reciprocate. But I personally prefer if sadhus would take care of those who are changed for the better, and that is done by vani usually, not by vapu.

[quote][cite] ccd:[/cite]Yes followup is usually left for Krishna to deal with, and He does reciprocate. But I personally prefer if sadhus would take care of those who are changed for the better, and that is done by vani usually, not by vapu.[/quote]

Is this not like saying "If you feel your life as you know it has been shattered to pieces, just read books written by sadhus, and dont expect that anyone will personally pay attention to you - and dont bother anyone either" -?

Not exactly -- see SB 1.6.6 - 1.6.22 for a poignant example.

I dont understand how this relates to what I was saying?

I am talking about ordinary people who, after encountering spiritual/religious people end up a mess, are left to themselves.

Narada was in his previous life an "ordinary man." In fact he was what we call a disadvantaged kid from a single parent family. Not to be confused with his next birth as "devarisi" Narada or deva-gandharva Narada muni. But because he is featured in the Bhagavatam he is called Sri Narada. He was not even initiated:-)

What exactly are you suggesting?
That one ought to think of oneself as having great potential (and that therefore one should act in such a manner that this potential may become manifest)?