Pariprashnena — Q&A Archive

>>We dont know what path Srila Prabhupada took with this yet.

We know the full outcomes of what happened, children were abused and the offenders were never punished. A few got a slap on the wrist and the children pursued their justice in the courtrooms of the USA to the sum of 400 million USD.

Iskcon then chose to hand over a huge amount of its assets (Temples and land) to individuals (Iskcon Temple Presidents) to avoid losing those assets in the court case. Now that the case has failed many of these individuals who hold these assets are refusing to hand them back to Iskcon.

Yes you are right the ramifications of the actions or inaction back in the 1970s is still being played out to this day.

Rasa108:

">he
did not pursue these individuals and hand them over to police. Perhaps
if Srila Prabhupada had >handed them over to the police it would have
sent a clear message to all of these disgusting offenders.

You
seem to be treading on thin ice here Baker....questioning the integrity
of a pure devotee is a dangerous game. We dont know the full story
here.....until then you need to be careful about how you judge a
situation involving Srila Prabhupadas actions or judgments."


Do check first whom you ascribe to what was being said.

I think you have a negative bias towards me.

Its a fact all history now, Srila Prabhupada agreed that Bhavananda could keep his Sanyas aslong as he performed some penance. He ordered Bhavananda to follow Chaturmas. Years later when Bhavananda became guru it was sold to his disciples how glorius Bhavananda was because he was a true Sanyasi and one of few if not the only one who ever undertook chaturmas.

Later when I learned the truth about why he had undertaken chaturmas it made me puke!

So much for truth and honesty.

>Srila Prabhupadas first reaction was that he be stripped of his Sanyas, but later Bhavanandas god >brothers talked Srila Prabhupada out of his first decision.

This is something that would need to be verified with concrete evidence....again it seems you are undermining Srila Prabhupadas judgement...do you think this is good?

>It is possible the GBC talked Srila Prabhupada into rescinding his initial demands or they simply chose to >deviate and not follow his instructions.

That we dont know.

>If he did ask for the people to be removed or handed over to 
>the police then that request was not followed, but there is no evidence of this available.

Yes no evidence  is available that shows he didnt request their removal or wanted police involvement....so please dont judge and criticise Srila Prabhupada before we see more evidence coming to light about this case.

>Yes that is a mistake and misrepresentation

My reference was to the GBCs mistake and misrepresentation not Locanananda Dasa

rasa>>Yes correct, so the real issue in relation to Srila Prabhupada is....did he request or instruct the GBC for their removal because it is clear he wanted them removed.

Yes it is clear, but when Bhavananda raped a 14 year old boy behind the Goshala, Srila Prabhupadas first reaction was that he be stripped of his Sanyas, but later Bhavanandas god brothers talked Srila Prabhupada out of his first decision.

It is possible the GBC talked Srila Prabhupada into rescinding his initial demands or they simply chose to deviate and not follow his instructions.

>No I am not laying it all at Srila Prabhupadas feet

Careful use of words "not laying it all"....so you are laying "some" of the blame on Srila Prabhupada.

>Either his requests were followed or they were not followed.

Yes correct, so the real issue in relation to Srila Prabhupada is....did he request or instruct the GBC for the removal of these offenders....because it is clear he wanted them removed.

>The point that Locanananda Das goes onto make is that the GBC claimed they never knew about the abuse

Yes that is a mistake and misrepresentation

No I am not laying it all at Srila Prabhupadas feet. Firstly he did not commit any crimes or tell any untruths. It was the demons that committed the crimes and the GBC that told the un-truths.

We have seen Srila Prabhupadas reaction to hearing the stories. He did not mince words he said they should be killed.

I have already said "It still stands Srila Prabhupada did know about the child abuse and although he was informed in 1975, he did hold meetings with the GBC but did not pursue the individuals as far as I can see from available documents. If he did ask for the people to be removed or handed over to
the police then that request was not followed, but there is no evidence of this available."

Either his requests were followed or they were not followed.

rasa>The point that Locanananda Das goes onto make is that the GBC claimed they never knew about the abuse
rasa>>Yes that is a mistake and misrepresentation

Says you? No the GBC were informed of the child abuse back in 1975 by Srila Prabhupada and many years after the GBC claimed they never knew, those are facts even GKM confirmed this.

>No that didnt happen, he did not call for anyone to be removed he only said "They should be removed" 

We dont actually know if Srila Prabhupada requested the GBC that they be removed or not, and if so, then the blame clearly lies with the GBC. This may have been discussed verbally at the meeting Srila Prabhupada had with his leaders:

"This eyewitness recently told me that Srila Prabhupada called all of the leaders present at the time
into his room to bring this to their attention, especially Gopal Krishna Maharaja who was the GBC
for Vrindavan"

We dont know the contents of this discussion, and until we do know....we cant say that Srila Prabhupada did or didnt instruct these people to be removed or in fact for the police to be involved.

>If the demons had have been removed then that would have sent a clear message.

Are you laying the blame at the feet of Srila Prabhupada that they were not removed?

You dont have to scream that text at me boyo, I am the one that pasted it here in the first place.

No one was handed over to the police that we do know!

My faith is not cracked by learning that even pure devotees can make mistakes, quite the opposite.

Who posted what and when is irrelevant manasi....there is no evidence that there was a mistake made by Srila Prabhupada only that he knew about the abuse in 1975 and called for the persons responsible to be removed:

".....They should be kicked out! But before they are kicked out, they should be hanged!'94

My request is to be very careful when you speak of a pure devotee and avoid a critical mood...keeping in mind we can take reaction for this mentality, especially when it is written and posted in a public forum.

Firstly you are now speculating, Srila Prabhupadas response on first hearing about the issue was '93Just see!'94, he said. '93Such demons! And they are doing this in my name! They should be kicked out! But before they are kicked out, they should be hanged!'94

You are saying he actually called for them to be removed, which he did not.

rasa>>only that he knew about the abuse in 1975 and called for the persons responsible to be removed:

No that didnt happen, he did not call for anyone to be removed he only said "They should be removed" saying someone should be removed and actually removing them are two different things.

Anyway the facts remain, no one was removed so the demons continued with their demon ways. If the demons had have been removed then that would have sent a clear message.

The point that Locanananda Das goes onto make is that the GBC claimed they never knew about the abuse, but everyone knew about it. Srila Prabhupada knew and the GBC knew about it.

No that is the facts based on the only evidence available which was raised at the GBC meeting in 1999 by Gopal Krishna Maharaja himself who was a direct first hand witness to the events as they unfolded when Srila Prabhupada was first informed about the issue back in 1975.

Incorrect - firstly GKMs evidence doesnt point towards Srila Prabhupada wanting the issue to remain internal, that is speculation as mentioned before. From the article written by Locanananda dasa - the facts in relation to Srila Prabhupada are as follows:

"That the abuse came to Srila Prabhupada'92s attention in 1975 was confirmed by Gopal Krishna Maharaja
at the 1999 GBC meetings"

There are no facts available on what exact actions were taken by Srila Prabhupada in relation to the matter,
only that he was very angry and upset for many days.

My point again is....be careful when making judgements on the actions of a pure devotee.

I think they have to respond in the same way as when non-devotees do them, and report them to police;-)

ccd>>I think they have to respond in the same way as when non-devotees do them, and report them to police;-)

Neat idea ccd, but in the history of Iskcon has anyone ever been handed over to the police?

I recently saw the articles proving that Srila Prabhupada knew about the child abuse. That the abuse came to Srila Prabhupada'92s attention in 1975 was confirmed by Gopal Krishna Maharaja at the 1999 GBC meetings.

Srila Prabhupada '93Just see!'94, he said. '93Such demons! And they are doing this in my name! They should be kicked out! But before they are kicked out, they should be hanged!'94

Read more about it here http://www.scribd.com/doc/14781904/Srila-Prabhupada-on-child-abuse

Although it seems that Srila Prabhupada got really angry when he heard about the child abuse and called all of the GBC into a meeting and informed them what had happened it appears even he did not pursue these individuals and hand them over to police. Perhaps if Srila Prabhupada had handed them over to the police it would have sent a clear message to all of these disgusting offenders. So if Srila Prabhupada did not take action it is no wonder the GBC took zero action for so many years and it also explains why the CPO is a lame duck on the issue.

The above is assuming this article is correct and Gopal Krishna Maharaja has given a correct account of what took place.

[quote][cite] ccd:[/cite]I think they have to respond in the same way as when non-devotees do them, and report them to police;-)[/quote]

Certainly, this is one part of the response.[br][br]
But what I am more focused on is in relation to what Veda brought up - namely, how to respond to outside critics, and also, how to respond within oneself when devotees do bad things.[br][br]
For example, once at the nama-hatta, a devotee who has been coming to the meetings for about fifteen years, came in late. Someone asked him where he had been, and he said he had two beers because he felt like it. And judging by the tipsy look on his face, they were alcoholic ones. There was also a woman there for whom this was the first visit to a nama-hatta at all.[br]
How to respond? Say anything at all? If she asked questions about the incident?[br]
What to think about it oneself? Say something to the devotee? Be stoic? Be cynical? ...

He should answer privately to the questioner to avoid disturbing others.
That woman was you? My reaction would probably be: "Well, reminds me of AA meeting... Ok, its a namahatta, not a mahatma gathering.
Everyone has some bad days but the point is how one gets up after falling."
As Bodhidharma said: "To fall seven times, to rise eight times - life starts from now." (Nanakorobi Yaoki, Jinsei Wa Kore Kara Da")

My apologies Baker....my comments are directed towards manasi_seva

manasi_seva....are you qualified to know the reasons for a pure devotees actions?....be very careful to avoid cultivating a critical mood towards a pure devotee.

Like I said "This in my opinion takes nothing away from Srila Prabhupada"  Srila Prabhupada also said devotees should follow the local laws and not break these laws he insisted Iskcon is also connected with the greater society and need to respect the local laws and not go around breaking them. It may well be that Srila Prabhupada did ask for these demons to be handed over to the police, but his orders were simply not followed, that we shall never know.

I did not say I knew the reasons for his actions, I only said by the evidence we have we know what actions he did or did not take and on the evidence that exists Srila Prabhupada chose to deal with the issue internally, and his leading disciples followed in the same path.

>If he did ask for the people to be removed or handed over to the police then that request was not >followed, but there is no evidence of this available.

Lets see what evidence comes to light before making any such judgements.

>It appears Srila Prabhupada decided to keep it internal which means in the end it was not dealt with and
>consequently his leading disciples followed down the same path until it all exploded in their faces.

It "appears" to you that Srila Prabhupada decided to keep it internal....that is speculation based on limited evidence.

rasa>>It "appears" to you that Srila Prabhupada decided to keep it internal....that is speculation based on limited evidence.

No that is the facts based on the only evidence available which was raised at the GBC meeting in 1999 by Gopal Krishna Maharaja himself who was a direct first hand witness to the events as they unfolded when Srila Prabhupada was first informed about the issue back in 1975.

>on the evidence that exists Srila Prabhupada chose to deal with the issue internally

Yes on the evidence that exists.....lets see what more evidence comes to light before judging the actions of Srila Prabhupada

>It still stands Srila Prabhupada did know about the child abuse and although he was informed in 1975, he
>did hold meetings with the GBC but did not pursue the individuals as far as I can see from available
>documents. 

You say that this is not taking anything away from Srila Prabhupada....yet here you are taking a critical approach "but did not pursue the individuals" and therefore implying that the responsibility lies with Srila Prabhupada.

>and his leading disciples followed in the same path.

We dont know what path Srila Prabhupada took with this yet.

Again I say....be very careful when judging the actions of a pure devotee.

I can only repeat myself:
Do check first whom you ascribe to what was being said.

You are quoting manasi-seva, but ascribing the quote to me.

Yes rasa that was not baker who said that it was me.

A pure devotee is pure in their heart and intent and 100% immersed in service to their Guru and Krishna, it does not mean they know the correct answers to all things. To think a pure devotee is omnisicent and all knowing is not correct, when devotees said this infront of Srila Prabhupada he corrected his own disciples and said "I am not god, only god is omniscient" One can be a pure devotee and still make mistakes.

Often devotees would ask Srila Prabhupada about how to do something thinking he was an expert in everything, he would honestly reply "I do not know I am not an expert"

It still stands Srila Prabhupada did know about the child abuse and although he was informed in 1975, he did hold meetings with the GBC but did not pursue the individuals as far as I can see from available documents. If he did ask for the people to be removed or handed over to the police then that request was not followed, but there is no evidence of this available. It appears Srila Prabhupada decided to keep it internal which means in the end it was not dealt with and consequently his leading disciples followed down the same path until it all exploded in their faces.

This in my opinion takes nothing away from Srila Prabhupada, its easy look back 40+ years in hind sight and say how someone made a mistake. Lets face it most institutions of that era handled the same issue in the same way, usually by moving people around and burying the issue hoping it to go away. It is only in modern times where people are more likely to speak up about their childhood abuses and confront the sensitive issues we can look back and point out the errors of the people involved.