Pariprashnena — Q&A Archive

Can you quote that?

There are other worlds we dont know about. There is enough suffering on this earth too.

What about meat eaters who get reincarnated very fast? There are the credible cases of WWII pilots who get reincarnated recently. Where do they go? They are obviously not taking birth among 8,400,000 species.

Well sadhus say human life is very rare.

Thats in Krishna Samhita.

Sukadeva Goswami says that hellish planets exist literally, and we should not do sinful activities, to avoid going there.
Bhaktivinode Thakura says that the hellish planets are not literal, and what Sukadeva Goswami has said is "motivational speech" to get people to avoid sinful activity so that they can understand Krishna.
Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati says that what Sukadeva Goswami says is literal truth, and that what Bhaktivinode Thakura has said is "motivational speech" to get the English intellectuals to accept the Bhagavatam so that they can understand Krishna.

Harmonious siddhanta across all three:
"Avoid sinful activity and read Bhagavatam in order to understand Krishna."

Very simple really. Are the hellish planets real? Who knows, who cares. Either way the conclusion is the same. :-)

"Who knows, who cares."

I care. One of the 10 purposes mentioned in Srimad Bhagavatam 2.10.2 is sthanam - or explanation of planetary systems. I think it is important for us to have a definite understanding of the cosmos we are situated in as it has an effect on our world view and behavior. Sukadeva Goswami also thought it was important to include descriptions of the hellish planets in the Literary Incarnation of Godhead.

If we assume that it doesnt really matter if the Bhagavatam is true or not then we run the risk of further assuming that everything therein is relative and can be accepted as literal or rejected according to our whim.

I wont guess at Srila Bhaktivinode Thakuras motivation in writing Krishna Samhita with less emphasis on the literal descriptions of the hellish planets and other aspects of our teachings. I dont think that the Thakura expected his own followers to adapt a compromised faith in Bhagavatam as a result of this one book though.

Bhaktivinoda Thakura was attempting to analyze Indian history and to show the development of Vaishnavism according to what he called the adhunika-vada (lit. modern approach). He wanted to address a new Indian intelligentsia with its British education and thus used some nontraditional interpretations. Like when he says "...we have been warned somewhere in the book [SB], not to accept them as real facts, but as inventions to overawe the wicked and to improve the simple and the ignorant", I must say that even after editing SB from 3rd canto on I havent seen any such quote. All this is his preaching strategy according to time, place and circumstances. This topic is covered in several works, like Krishna Kshetra dasa: "Reform in Tradition: Bhaktivinodas Apologetic for the Bhagavata Purana" (ICJ 7.1, 1999)

Hells, Yamaraja and Yamadutas are real, there are many NDEs attesting to it. http://www.veda.harekrsna.cz/encyclopedia/dying.htm

> What about meat eaters who get reincarnated very fast? There are the credible cases of WWII pilots who get reincarnated recently. Where do they go? They are obviously not taking birth among 8,400,000 species.

Given the NDE accounts some may go to higher levels (Bhuvarloka, Svarloka) or remain as ghosts for some time, etc. (There are people reincarnated as animals between human births too.)

"...A day in hell is equal to one hundred years of the mortal." (Garuda Purana 2.3.79)

My understanding is that in Kali yuga the criteria to get a human birth is significantly lower than in previous yugas.

> Well sadhus say human life is very rare.

It is. Compare the number of humans with the number of all other living organisms just on this earth.

I had a sankirtan experience on this:
I entered a busy shop and tried to speak with the owner. He was about to tell me to go, when his wife saw the small book I had in my hand: "Life after Death" with the yamadutas featured in the cover. She said to her husband: "stop, I want this book, I saw these people in my NDE in the hospital"
Needless to say, they bought it.

Another question. What is the relative position of time in the hellish planets? Is it "slower" or "faster" than here. If you suffer for thousands of hellish years in the hellish planet, how long is that in earth years?

Ive added a Garuda P. quote about this to my text.

I know some devotees who were in the hospital and they saw how the yamadutas came for some patients.

regarding the WWII soldiers that killed many people I always suspected that they get human birth because of a combinatin of good and bad karma.
they are still humans because of pious work but that doesnt mean that they wont get an animal body in their next life.

A prabhu gave a lecture and said, that there are different hellish planets (forgot the names) but when people ate chicken the chicken eat them (groose) but true. And they are gonna pick you with their beaks, well you get the picture...

look:

SB 5.26.13: For the maintenance of their bodies and the satisfaction of their tongues, cruel persons cook poor animals and birds alive. Such persons are condemned even by man-eaters. In their next lives they are carried by the Yamaduc0u363 tas to the hell known as Kumbhu299 pu257 ka, where they are cooked in boiling oil.

The whole inspiring chapter:
http://vedabase.net/sb/5/26/en3

Yep...

"I care. One of the 10 purposes mentioned in Srimad Bhagavatam..."

hehehe, I knew youd say something like that Ekendra, including the "If we assume that it doesnt really matter if the Bhagavatam is true or not then we run the risk of...." part.

VEDA - you said:

""...we have been warned somewhere in the book [SB], not to accept them as real facts, but as inventions to overawe the wicked and to improve the simple and the ignorant", I must say that even after editing SB from 3rd canto on I havent seen any such quote."

Try SB. 11.21.23:

phala-srutir iyam nrinam
na sreyo rocanam param
sreyo-vivakshaya proktam
yatha bhaishajya-rocanam

"Those statements of scripture promising fruitive rewards do not prescribe the ultimate good for men hut are merely enticements for executing beneficial religious duties, like promises of candy spoken to induce a child to take beneficial medicine."

Fruitive rewards, or phala, include all reactions to activities, both positive (such as elevation to heavenly planets) and negative (such as birth in a hellish planet). So this is the sastric basis for Bhaktivinode Thakuras explanation, which we might add, is completely consonant with our siddhanta on sambandha, abhideya, and proyojana, and thus acceptable as Vedic.

11.21.23 is stating that fruitive resutls will not give the ultimate good for living entities (na te vidhu svartha gatim hi vishnum). It has nothing to do with whether or not the fruitive rewards will take place or not.

if hells are true you have to explain people how God creates such horrible places although he is ALL loving.

God says:
I love you but I want you to teach you a lesson so BURN in hell for a thousand years!

Thanks for the verse, Sitapati Prabhu, and your comment, Amala Gaura Prabhu. Yes, thats the difference. Sri Sukadev
never says naraka is imaginary nor do acaryas commenting on that SB passage. The only one who hints on this is Bhaktivinod Thakur and that makes part of his adhunika vada. Afaik, Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati nor Srila Prabhupada follow in his steps in this regard.

First, time scale in hell is different from the one on earth. Second, it is our free will to behave in a hell-bound way. Third, some people need that type of lesson to learn. Fourth, Narada Muni or Lord Himself sometimes liberate the whole hell.

I think the hell concept doesnt mean being forcefully sent to some suffering place, but a consequence of our acts that puts us in hellish condition (meaning w/o Krishna and under the law of material nature).

Maybe it is true that people needs to think there is a particular punishment destination so that they restrain themselves. Not my case.

We have hellish condition very close, see Iraq, Afghanistan, etc etc. Ask those people.

It is clearly explained in 3rd canto that if someone is going to take an animal birth he cannot do it immediately from human being. The difference in consciousness is too vast. So what is the intermediate step? Hellish planets. We have to suffer there so our consciousness is used to that kind of thing then we can happily accept the animals body.

If there is no hellish planets then how do you explain the difference between humans and animal consciousness? There is a vast difference. Someone who is sinful has no use being in the human body, but at the same time he is used to the luxuries, so what is the solution? He has to become fit for an animal body, which is where he will be happy anyway. But the animal body does not have the same facilities as the human body, there is no free will.

So, is this the purpose of the hellish planets. to adapt the soul to animal consciousness? hmmmmm

SB 3.3.29
Translation: My dear mother, it is sometimes said that we experience hell or heaven on this planet, for hellish punishments are sometimes visible on this planet also.
PURPORT
Sometimes unbelievers do not accept these statements of scripture regarding hell. They disregard such authorized descriptions. Lord Kapila therefore confirms them by saying that these hellish conditions are also visible on this planet. It is not that they are only on the planet where Yamar'e4ja lives. On the planet of Yamar'e4ja, the sinful man is given the chance to practice living in the hellish conditions which he will have to endure in the next life, and then he is given a chance to take birth on another planet to continue his hellish life. For example, if a man is to be punished to remain in hell and eat stool and urine, then first of all he practices such habits on the planet of Yamar'e4ja, and then he is given a particular type of body, that of a hog, so that he can eat stool and think that he is enjoying life. It is stated previously that in any hellish condition, the conditioned soul thinks he is happy. Otherwise, it would not be possible for him to suffer hellish life.

The verse 11.21.23 is explaining that explanations of fruitive results, such as elevation to heavenly planets and birth in hellish planets, are meant as motivational speech for the living entities, and are only tangentially related to the actual subject matter of Bhagavatam. The analogy given to illustrate this is that of inducing a child to take medicine by offering candy. The childs taking the candy is not the goal, their taking the medicine is. If you can get them to take candy but not medicine there is no benefit. If you can get them to take medicine without the candy, there is no loss.

Avoiding (or believing in) the hellish planets is not the goal. Purifying your consciousness and understanding Krishna is.

What if you try to offer a child some candy in order to get him to take medicine and he says: "My mother told me that candy is bad for you"?

Then you dont offer him candy, because you dont care if he takes the candy or not, you want him to take the medicine. Understanding this essential difference between belief in the hellish planets and the actual purpose of their description, Srila Bhaktivinode Thakura has separated the two. Acarya means one who understands the actual purpose of the scriptures.

Interestingly, an article in the August 2007 Scientific American explained that people are more likely to engage in risk behaviour if motivated by a picture of the negative consequences of not acting, than they are by a description of positive outcomes.

In other words, for most people the hellish planets represents a more compelling argument for a particular action than a description of the heavenly planets.

Sometimes people come to me and complain that religion is all about scaring people into submission. I explain to them that just as animals need to be disciplined with a stick (or just the sight of it), similarly people of low consciousness will only respond to this kind of thing, but ultimately its not what religion is all about. Thats basically Bhaktivinode Thakuras point.

I saw Scientific American mag in the rack at the LA airport. I should have bought it. The article is available online (pay access), here: http://www.sciammind.com/article.cfm?&articleID=1DBD7502-E7F2-99DF-3E23D3B7BDD8BE02

> We have to suffer there so our consciousness is used to that kind of thing then we can happily accept the animals body.
I heard a lecture by Suhotra Maharaj were he explained this. Due to extreme pain your consciousness degrades and you get the animal body you deserve.
Also it is interesting to note that you only have a subtle body there thats why you dont die although they punish you like anything.

Can anyone explain how our consciousness degrades from extreme pain?

Hell is also likely to be "nice/comfortable" Materially right???? Atheists are sometimes nice people (materialy) right?? :-)
examples from the Maha Purana, are like "gold, palaces, attractive women so forth...
why not :-)
and if we have to scare the rascals. Why not lie about hell too??
anyway it is hell so who really cares right let us all chant HK HK KK HH HR HR RR HH!!!!!!

in regard to consciousness degrading due to some pain/pleasure duality i think it comes down from the svattvic to the rajo then tamasic (because of sense grat mostly, read Arjamila): ei Brahmanical platform can realize deeper concepts while the Sudras may just understand the workings of objects (and hopefully) their environment.

..of course it exists...there are many hellish planets.

Is this hell?

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=3c3_1187618327

[quote][cite] amalagaura:[/cite]Is this hell?

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=3c3_1187618327[/quote]

No, its just a train station in Mumbai during rush hour, hehe. I love the way how they have separate coaches for ladies only, and I loved the way a guy was smiling in a self-critical way when he saw the camera filming.

[quote][cite] amalagaura:[/cite]Is this hell?

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=3c3_1187618327[/quote]
NO! but CLOSE!!!