Pariprashnena — Q&A Archive

but devotees asked this same question to Prabhupada and he said that it was so important to drink milk that you better drink it even from abused cows.

one idea i see published a lot recently is to drink blood milk if you cant get milk from protected cows and counteract the evil by supporting cow protection. (if you cant get milk from proteced cows you probably arent close to any, and the support would have to be monetary.)

this doesnt appear an ideal solution, but bettre than doing nothing, no?

ys phani.

Its actually quite weird that they protect a cow like that. Okey to protect a cow from being slaughtered is something else but to protect a cow from giving milk?

So what point are you making Baker? other than the bleeding obvious one that farms cost a considerable amount of money and resources to setup and maintain. Well please tell us all something we dont know. Or is it an excuse of therefore we are not in a position to do anything about it? Like I said way back before in the thread for the individual there are other alternatives which devotees in different parts of the world have taken up, adopting a vegan diet until one has access to pure milk is one option.

Anyway I think the various options of have been explored well and their is ample proof that it can be done and it is being done in the West where necessary resources are available, the argument that ccd puts forward of being practically impossible is simply not true. What is true is that most people in a modern setting tend to gravitate to cities for work (including devotees) so it makes it very difficult to deal with this issue but not impossible.

It is simply up to the individual to exercise their own rights and thoughts on the issue. But it would be a grave mistake to criticize someone who practices Gaudiya Vaisnavism but decides not to partake in commercial milk because they feel its too supportive of animal slaughter.

[quote][cite] manasi_seva:[/cite]It is simply up to the individual to exercise their own rights and thoughts on the issue. But it would be a grave mistake to criticize someone who practices Gaudiya Vaisnavism but decides not to partake in commercial milk because they feel its too supportive of animal slaughter.[/quote]

Do you feel criticzed?[br][br]

There was once a poster here who was a militant anti-vegan, yes.[br][br]

I dont see the problem. If someone is sure that they are practicing the Vaishnava path, sure of their own love and devotion for Krishna - then what is the problem? What does the approval or disapproval of others matter if you are sure you are doing the right thing?

Farms that do produce it are subsidised by donations. We know that, you need to be rich (and there is nothing wrong with being rich). But poor people should not be bared from benefits too.

Everything is subsidised, the whole of Iskcon is subsidised, paid for by other peoples donations, makes no difference, if the donations pay for the setup and then with devotee effort they can maintain, then it makes no difference, even Governments subsidise industries. The USA Govt gives huge subsidies to US Farmers, that is sometimes necessary, but once installed and setup they should maintain as is evidenced by many Iskcon farms.

At farms where they have proper Goshalas the cows and calves are protected, milk consumption would be harmonius however in the commercial milk industry dairy cows, imprisoned by the industrial agriculturalists, are mechanically raped and impregnated to keep them lactating (producing milk) and all of their calves are taken from them following birth. You may also not know that these cows moan woefully for the loss of their babies. Almost all male calves removed from their mothers are butchered to produce what meat marketers call '91veal'92. When the female cows can no longer produce milk they are sold for their meat.

abhiram>>"but devotees asked this same question to Prabhupada and he said that it was so important to drink milk that you better drink it even from abused cows."

Srila Prabhupada also clearly advocated cow protection so there is a conflict between these two ideas, I think you need to provide specific book quotes on this abhiram! There are complete web pages of Srila Prabhupadas quotes on the advocacy of cow protection but I have never seen any quote where he says you should consume milk from abused cows! http://www.mothercow.org/oxen/prabhupada-quotes.html

I recently investigated this and I myself have become a vegan and I will only consume milk products if I can be sure the milk is from a proper Goshala, consuming commercial milk only supports another component of the cruel cow killing industry, Iskcon should revise their views on commercial milk, its seems very hypocritical to on one hand advocate cow protection and then to use commercial milk that supports the Veal/Beef Industry. In the UK alone 80% of the beef produced comes from the dairy industry.

How could one dream of offering products made from commercial milk to Krishna the protector of the cows knowing full well this milk causes the suffering and death of so many cows?

Its also interesting to note that the Food For Life organization only serves vegan meals and has a web page highlighting the issues of commercial milk:
http://ffl.org/wp/pure-foodism/why-vegan/

It is all based on premises that devotee has to first of all be "non-violent" as if it is an overriding principle. It is true we should, but we are not Jains. Non-violence if good as a basic dharmic principle, but not if it dictating what you will do on the higher stages of bhakti. So if you have to offer milk, if you need to offer musk, you offer musk (even it is impossible to find any vegetarian musk). In fact we should not be bewildered by passages of Harivamsa in this regard, if someone will start argue with us on this issue. There are explicit instructions from Prabhupada on the matter of milk and we should follow them, not our mind, yet preaching cow-protection by a practical example.

Oh really Non Violent? and how can you be non-violent if what you are purchasing is causing the death of the cows?

Cow protection by practical example? Are you kidding me? Cow Protection means to investigate what is cow protection, if you consume commercial milk then you are supporting the beef industry as plain and simple as if you went out and purchased a hamburger! Your requirement for commercial milk is forcing the death of innocent calves. You clearly have not investigated the issue, you have simply gone into lobotomy mode.

Higher Stages of Bhakti? You have to be kidding me? Iskcon is practicing the higher stages of Bhakti? No the GBC wont allow that, you are not allowed to..are you forgetting Aindras book that advocated higher stages of Bhakti and he was threatened with expulsion from Iskcon if he published his book! Iskcon is practicing higher stages of Bhakti while ordering their commercial milk? OMG this is laughable! Simply by offering milk sweets to Krishna alone is not a higher level of Bhakti it is a state of consciousness of the individual.

Oh but I guess what it means is you are going to be inconvenienced! Yes thats right its an inconvenient fact that unless we give up commercial milk we are supporting cow killing. There is no debate on that!

Yes milk is important but the whole concept of milk and cow protection comes from Varnashram Dham, you must protect the cows and integrate them into our lives. So typically Iskcon should establish farms that produce the milk they wish to offer to Krishna and supply to their restaurants. In some countries this happens but at many Iskcon Temples this does not. How can you offer milk in love and devotion to the protector of the cows, when your milk has caused the death of X amount of calves...we are hypocrites...plain and simple...

ccd>>yet preaching cow-protection by a practical example.

What a load of crap!...you purchase commercial milk ccd and you are causing the death of cows in bulk...Stop preaching rasa basa philosophy

You want to follow Srila Prabhupadas philosopy? then get off your lazy ass and purchase land and keep cows in a Goshala where you can guarantee their protection, then offer your milk from protected cows to Krishna, then both will benefit. If you cannot do that the be a vegan, and as Krishna says in the Bhagavad gita "Offer me a flower, fruit, leaf or water and I will accept it" It is love and devotion and non violence that matters...

Ok ccd specific quotes by Srila Prabhupad? Lets see them! Yes on cow protection there are many..on cow exploitation? No there are none!

Even the Food For Life program has worked this issue out while still being fully supportive of Srila Prabhupada, but Iskcon ... NOPE!
http://ffl.org/wp/pure-foodism/why-vegan/

If you wish to be connected with and serve Krishnas cows in Vrindavan 24hours per day, 7 days per week by sponsoring a Krishnas cow in Vrindavan for only a 1 usd per day please visit careforcows.org and sponsor resident of your choice.Is the life of Krishnas cow worth 1 dollar per day?

Newsletters are posted every month.Team of dedicated devotees including Kurma Rupa prabhu(bramachari disciple of ACBSP) are catering to myriad of cows needs(feeding/cleaning/rescuing/brushing/medical treatment/protection for butchers etc.) around the clock including the 24 guard duty. I cant think of a better project out there to donate to.Devotees form Care for Cows take a really great care of the cows in Vrindavan for the last 10 years.Herd consists of over 300 abandoned street cows,bulls and calfs.

We in the west generally have good excuse for not being able to serve the cows(lack of farms,knowledge,money,good leadership etc.).Not anymore.

Donations can be send by paypal thru the website.What a nice way to express the gratitude to mother cow and serve Vrindavan Dham 24 hours per day.

Please check the following videos on youtube for your inspiration:

http://www.youtube.com/user/CareForCows

ys Jagannath das

[quote][cite] manasi_seva:[/cite]Oh but I guess what it means is you are going to be inconvenienced! Yes thats right its an inconvenient fact that unless we give up commercial milk we are supporting cow killing. There is no debate on that![/quote]

Its also a fact that *any* product one purchases from karmis, likely including ones paycheck, is connected to slaughter. The people who produce and market the beans and grains that devotees usually eat, are, in most cases, meat-eaters.[br][br]
If the only two choices are 1. perfection or 2. nothing, then I am not sure what to do.[br]
Should people who cannot live the perfect devotee lifestyle give up all attempts at devotional activities?

Its a good point Baker, some activities may have a remote/minute connection to animal slaughter. For example you purchase an airline ticket to go to Vrndavan India to attend Krishna Janmastami, no doubt some of that money will go to the airlines catering purchases that may put beef on the inflight menus. But this is what I call unconscious or indirect connection, if we were to be concerned about all of these remote/minute connections we would be frozen into a state of non-activity through fear of any connection to animal slaughter no matter how remote or minute.

I am not debating the remote/minute connections as I believe they are unconsious mistakes that are forgiven when one chooses the path of Bhakti. However the commercial milk is an industry that directly contributes to Cow Slaughter, when a particular Industry like the Diary Industry is supplying 80% of the beef and we are directly aware of that fact then its no longer a remote/minute connection.

I find it strange that the Food For Life Program which was once a part of Iskcon (still run by Iskcon devotees but is independent) has adopted a vegan menu because of the issues surrounding the Dairy Industries but Iskcon pays no attention to the commercial milk issue at all.

Iskcon and Gaudiya Viasnavas rate cow protection as very high, we analyze the products that we purchase to make sure there are no animal products in them to make sure we are not eating animal based products and to make sure we are not supporting animal slaughter. Why? because we preach against animal slaughter and it is a good feeling knowing that you are not contributing directly to animal slaughter, it is an act of compassion which sits very closely with a devotee of Krishna (the protector of the cows)

Now to find out that the milk I purchase from my local super market which I once thought was just good wholesome milk from a dairy cow, I now find another completely different picture. Not just some remote/minute connection but a picture of horror that is basically supplying 80% of the cows for slaughter after having them perpetually impregnated for milk production. So now it becomes difficult putting a case forward about being a vegetarian because we dont support animal slaughter yet purchasing a product that directly contributes to animal slaughter. I believe the only word that adequately describes it is hypocrisy.

I know its very austere to become a Vegan, in some ways for a devotee its almost better to die if cannot offer the milk, youghurt, curds etc to Krishna. But isnt this is a selfish way of thinking, should we not take on this austerity for the protection of the cows? make a stand against maya? Offer only the products that are connected with love and devotion? This issue has caused me a great deal of pain and the only conclusion I can some to is to only partake in milk products where there is a proper Goshala that gives full protection to the cows otherwise I will stick with a vegan diet.

[quote][cite] manasi_seva:[/cite]I know its very austere to become a Vegan, in some ways for a devotee its almost better to die if cannot offer the milk, youghurt, curds etc to Krishna. But isnt this is a selfish way of thinking, should we not take on this austerity for the protection of the cows? make a stand against maya? Offer only the products that are connected with love and devotion?[/quote]

Its not clear how someone who actually is a devotee would have any problems or questions around that to begin with.[br]
On the other hand, aspirants should go by an extent of austerity and renunciation that they can actually live up to, on a daily basis, no? Otherwise, they take their faith and commitment for granted and sooner or later fall off the path.

If Srila Prabhupad wanted us to be vegan he would surely have said so.On the contrary he emphasized the importance of milk consumption.All other conclusions,however well meaning are deviation from what Srila Prabhupada prescribed for us.

Srila Prabhupada never suggested the inferior principle of non-violence ruled over the more important principle -- and that is the offering of milk products to Krishna. In fact he would not only allow to use the milk from commercial farms, he also allowed milk which contain fish-oil (of course since then commercial/ organic milk was allowed on the market in US). Everything we buy is from exploited farms, people are exploited, cows are exploited (meat cows do not give milk BTW).

All dairy cows after a short life span of 3-5 years in milk production end up in the slaughter house BTW, all male calves born from dairy farms that survive are placed into a wooden pallet style crates so they cannot move then slaughtered some time later for their meat. In some countries there are breeds of cows that are bred specifically for their meat and are non-diary that is true but that only accounts for a percentage of the slaughter the rest is made up from unwanted cows from the dairy farms.

Everything we buy is not from exploited farms? there are countless organic farms springing up everywhere in the demand for produce that is not exploited.

Sounds like the arguments of convenience (its all too hard so lets ignore the issue)

Dont mis-understand me I am not advocating veganism because veganism denies the place of the cow in human culture, I am advocating we should be supporting where possible by way of purchase of the milk or financial support to Goshalas that produce milk from non-abused cows. But if one cannot obtain Goshala milk then one has to seriously consider alternatives. Yes its true Vaisnavas only eat the remenants from Krishnas plate and because those remenants are vegetarian thats why we are vegetarians, if it was otherwise then we would be eating what ever it was. But that does not remove the hyprocrisy or violence to the cows.

and still you have not supplied any quotes by Srila Prabhupada on this issue CCD?

Here is an example of an Iskcon restaurant in New Zealand who boycotted commercial milk for 2 years: "As a stance against the violence of the dairy industry The Loft followed a vegan diet for the last 2 years. Now, thanks to the hard work and dedication of one family from The Loft community, we are happy to be able to offer our own karma free milk products. Our cows are well loved, well cared for, and will live out the full duration of their lives under our loving care."
http://www.theloft.org.nz/?page_id=352

This is a great example where true concern for the welfare of the cows resulted in a positive outcome for both the Cows, Devotees and Krishnas plate

Its true Srila prabhupada didnt ask us to be vegan but while he was here he was making all efforts to create farm communities.

Gita Nagari farm, Pennsylvania, July 15, 1976

"So if you have got excess milk, you can make it powdered milk and you can send to India in any amount. It will be consumed. At least we can use it in out different centers, we can distribute. So there is no question [of excess or waste]. "

...

"We cannot be so ungrateful that we kill our mother. Milk is so important. We are drinking the milk of the cow, and in exchange, if we cut the throat of our mother, that is not civilization. That is barbarism, less than animal. Animals also, they have respect for mother. So try to give protection to the cow, that is a pious activity, and youll not be in scarcity.

Live village life, simple life, and be satisfied with the bare necessities. There is no need of luxury. And save time and chant Hare Krishna. This is ideal life. So I am very pleased that you are doing that, and do it more nicely so that others may be attracted.

This town life, industrial life, factory life, is asuric life. It is killing human ambition. It is killing civilization. So there are many other businesses for a Krishna conscious person, because in the Bhagavad-gita, Krishna speaks all around: sociology, politics, philosophy, religion, culture, economics, everything is there. If you simply follow Krishnas instructions, then you get cultural life all around."

Srila prabhupada mentions piety - although we are not a movement for piety its helpful for us to come to the platfrom of goodness. Its also pious and more helpful if we dont live in cities and its more helpful.

In my opinion we should admit our lackings and not try to justify them just like its difficult for me to live on a farm, it may be difficult for me to give up milk that contributes to slaughter so I should either find another means a better means or restrain or contribute to something positive.

Although the ultimate purification is Krsna conciousness, that doesnt mean we justify our lackings with philosophy better to call a spade a spade.

It is an illusion to think that milk from organic farms is "ahimsa". It is not. We should not just try to follow a blind leader who thnks he is more intelligent than Prabhupada or only believes in "quotes". The Loft community is largely separate from ISKCON, they do not worship a deity, they do not allow many ISKCON devotees to come, they do not allow kids, and they are vegan. That is not the mainstream ISKCON, but is an alternative preaching program of a very nice devotee, who joined ISKCON after experimenting in Kirtananandas ways for many many years. Well, it is a deviation, that we are able to tolerate, as long as you do not make it into a standard. There you go Manasi Seva. I do not appreciate painting all devotees who strictly follow Prabhupadas standard as demons. Hardly any use in it and hardly any use in trying to be holier than the pope.

[quote][cite] mishra:[/cite]sometimes I hear some devotees very strongly calling this hypocrisy.[/quote]

I think this issue of what is hypocrisy needs to be cleared:[br][br]

Take for example a doctor, who himself smokes, but advises his patients not to smoke. He is thereby not necessarily a hypocrite. He may not be seen as an authority on _how_ to stop smoking, and he may not appear particularly credible, but otherwise, his advice may be sound. However, if this doctor would hide his own smoking or lie about it, but demand that his patients see him as an authority on non-smoking, then that would be hypocrisy.[br][br]
If one acknowledges ones failings, makes some effort to improve, and doesnt demand others to give one unconditional respect and credit, then one is fallible, but is not a hypocrite.

We do not pretend that we have milk that is completely and fully non-violent. I was attacked by a vegan argument on sankirtana some 20 years ago, and I know they put non-violence at the core, but we sell Bhagavad-gita. And yes violence is there. However with the modern milk its a compromise, but not a hypocrisy. If we have put the ahimsa above all that would be. Obviously it is better to buy milk from farmers directly, and make sure the farmers who we buy it from are better than others. That what devotees do, as I know. But to pretend that Srila Prabhupada wants us to be vegan and only vegan IS a hypocrisy.

ccd you are creating strawman arguments...I have never said Srila Prabhupada wants us to be vegan, but he gave so many classes advocating cow protection, not cow slaughter! And after several requests for Srila Prabhupada quotes I can see that you simply dont have any. I have never said anyone is a demon ccd...again you have very strawman argument tendencies which seems to be common where there is denial involved.

I have already said further up "Dont mis-understand me I am not advocating veganism because veganism denies the place of the cow in human culture"
If you are going to misquote me then the discussion becomes pointless.

ccd>>Obviously it is better to buy milk from farmers directly
Your point here is meaningless the farmers are the major part of the commercial dairy industry .. no?

vrindavan>>Although the ultimate purification is Krsna conciousness, that doesnt mean we justify our lackings with philosophy better to call a spade a spade.

I agree and where possible we should seek rectify the issue not deny it. We should always be seekers of the truth, not use our philisophy to deny the blatently obvious.

These are the stand points:

#1 .. An individual stops supporting the dairy industry (which is based on cow slaughter) by taking only milk from protected cows, that is laudable.
#2 .. An individual supports the dairy industry and does nothing to actively support cow protection (active = putting your money where your mouth is).
#3 .. An individual chooses to stop actively supporting the dairy industry and actively works to create a cow protection situation to produce milk.

Some devotees throughout the world have taken position #1 and #3 yet most including Iskcon are fixed on #2 In New Zealand it has had sweeping impacts a quote from the Wellington Yatra in NZ "'93Our whole community in Wellington (of about 50 active preachers) are vegan as an interim means prior to acquiring our own cows (which is in the pipeline).'94"

Srila Prabhupada gave us clear instructions that we were to set up farms. I have seen no quotes that justify anything else.

Baker>> "However, if this doctor would hide his own smoking or lie about it, but demand that his patients see him as an authority on non-smoking, then that would be hypocrisy."

Yes indeed like Iskcon refuses to accept its purchase of commercial milk is contributing to cow slaughter while waving their finger at Karmi Society and calling them melecchas and yavanas for having developed a cow slaughter society and they believe they preach cow protection by pratical example. Its beyond hypocrisy its bizzare!

Time to stop living in the past and start trying to apply Srila Prabhupada'92s vision to the real world today. Its great to see some communities of devotees (whether Iskcon or not) are actually doing this with Wellington in New Zealand leading the way.

Manasi-seva,

I am sorry that you have found out only relatively late about the details of how milk is generally produced.

At this point, I would suggest you also inform yourself about the costs, requirements and prospects of maintaining dairy cows.
Depending on the country you are in, go to the the agricultural office and and let them give you an official estimate, along with the legal education on licenses, certificates and whatever else may be necessary.

Also, it would be good to do a comparison study for different countries. AFAIK, the laws and regulations for animal husbandry are much stricter in the European Union that in the U.S., for example.

Just so that you know what these things cost and require, so you will get a better picture of what the situation looks like in practice, with as few surprises later on as possible.

This is a genuine issue as evidenced by different devotees reacting to it quite differently in different parts of the world. Some devotees have resolved the issue by refusing commercial milk which has provided them with impetus to setup their own Goshalas. One does not need a Phd on animal husbandry to establish a Goshala/farm and there are options for those who wish to support the issue but have no capacity or desire to have their own farm.

Basically its each to their own, if one sees it as a serious issue there are ways to deal with it even within Gaudiya Vaisnavism. Its not my choice to actively support dairy farms and cow slaughter if it is your choice to do so then so be it.

Baker if you wish to contribute to a genuine discussion perhaps refrain from petty sarcastic time wasting comments both for your benefit and for mine.

Your own Goshalas have proven to be a failing. I am yet to see a practical and economical way of producing milk in ISKCON farms. And if we are failing in production (and that is a fact in many places, are there any milk producing protected cows around?) we can not starve Krishna form milk products. Yes we are failing and that is not the straw man argument. It is the fact. It is not an issue of theory (where you need quotes), it is rather very practical issue as Baker states and you have to offer milk (in whatever source or even ingredients) to Krishna. Or even better start your own farm and show how much milk it has produced for the Deity and let us know in a few years.

My own Goshalas have proven to be a failing? What are you talking about?

ccd>>I am yet to see a practical and economical way of producing milk in ISKCON farms.

Iskcon maybe, in Bangladesh/India I know several Vaisnava families (yes I visit and stay with them) they keep several cows which produce so much milk, they not only provide for the needs of the family but they sell the excess milk and make a handsome profit. These families have been doing this for countless generations. These countries have been doing this for thousands of years. I know the West is more complex and that is why Srila Prabhupada said build farms, its the ideal setting to practice Vaisnava Philosophy and to produce all of the food requirements. Cities are actually awful places, concrete jungles like something out of hell. Unfortunately we have all become conditioned to accept the city as a comfortable home.

I dont think Iskcon centres have failed to produce their milk requirements in India its basically an issue in the West probably due to a lack of funds for developing farms and a lack of people who have the knowledge to make it happen.

I dont need to start a farm, like I said before my choice is keep a vegan diet unless I can access bonafide milk. Thats my choice and it conflicts with nothing in Gaudiya Vaisnavism. Krishna has stated clearly in the Gita what can be offered with love and devotion, those quotes are very clear.

Yes, low labour cost economy may support such milk. You can keep vegan, just dont go around making people feeling too humble by your preaching;-) we need to see everything in a perspective, and this perspective is the practical example of Srila Prabhupada.

Yes well I guess things have changed in Iskcon, most of the low cost labour (devotees who served with bhakti have left) more and more are taking wages out of the temple so it kind of puts an end to many things that were once achievable in the wonderful world of Iskcon.

Like I said I dont advocate or preach veganism if you actually read my posts you might have picked that up, it as a personal decision because I dont see any perspective where supporting cow slaughter fits into all of the discussions and quotes that Srila Prabhupada left on cow protection.

So its quite simple, I dont accept your arguments that it is okay to partake in commercial milk and thats my personal choice as it is your choice to do otherwise. I guess thats one of the assertive rights that we all have.

Yes. Thats true. It is perfectly okay to disagree with me. But it is practically impossible to get sufficient amounts of pure milk in the west, so a substitute is offered. We should feel humbled and are full of regrets. I have seen so many cows protected, but only for many many years after they gave some milk. It is not only labour but also other overheads that are making it practically prohibitive. And yes we should respect vegans for the choices they make. Sorry if I misunderstood you, I just mentioned that a milk with fish oil was allowed by Prabhupada, what to speak of vegetarian commercial milk.

[p]
I dont agree its practically impossible you make it sound like there is absolutely no way pure milk and pure cow protection can take place in the west. By giving in to this idea no other alternatives will ever be explored. There are several Iskcon farms in Australia that produce abundant pure milk so much so that they even sell additional products to the community such as milk, yoghurt, paneer etc.[/p]

[p]
Australia has by no means the cheapest labour and cheapest overheads in Western countries infact quite the opposite it is probably in the top 10 of highest costs re: labour, overheads etc etc.[/p]

[p]
One such farm is : NEW GOKULA FARM Lot 1 Lewis Lane, Millfield (Near. Cessnock), NSW. Australia[/p]

[p]
[img]http://www.newgokula.com/1new%20gokula%20produce.jpg[/img][/p]

[p]
So if there is one example in the west where this has been achieved it kind of deflates the argument. I think the main issue is that in some locations it has been a struggle to simply keep temples open let alone farms. But cow protection and pure milk production is happening within Iskcon Farms in the west. Its a matter of having the land available, finances and the devotees with the know how and dedication to keep it going.[/p]

Bhaktivedanta manor UK offer dieties milk products from the farm - ahimsa milk is a project exploring the UK business model

http://happyhealthycows.blogspot.com/
http://www.ahimsamilk.org/?page_id=14

Wow nice thanks Vrindavan, yes I am sure there many Iskcon farms that achieve ahimsa milk. There is also an interesting article on your 1st link about battery milk farms in the UK..thx for the info!

[quote][cite] manasi_seva:[/cite]So if there is one example in the west where this has been achieved it kind of deflates the argument. I think the main issue is that in some locations it has been a struggle to simply keep temples open let alone farms. But cow protection and pure milk production is happening within Iskcon Farms in the west. Its a matter of having the land available, finances and the devotees with the know how and dedication to keep it going.[/quote]

Well, yes, obviously - "Its a matter of having the land available, finances and the devotees with the know how and dedication to keep it going".[br]
And if you informed yourself about the costs and requirements for dairy farms, then youd know that this requires finances that most devotees can only dream of.[br]
Its not impossible to have a proper dairy farm, of course, but the costs are considerable.

[quote][cite] vrindavan:[/cite]Although the ultimate purification is Krsna conciousness, that doesnt mean we justify our lackings with philosophy better to call a spade a spade.[/quote]

I do not think that anyone here is trying to justify their lackings with philosophy.[br][br]

But as far as this discussion/debate as such is concerned, what is happening here is that one side has taken the position of the moral highground, an unassailable position (namely, that the cows should be protected), but is holding it against specific individuals for being imperfect and not living up to that moral highground.[br][br]
Nobody is saying that cows should not be protected, or that commercial milk is a good enough solution. Nobody is disagreeing with the moral highground.[br]
In such a case, its just an ego-trip to criticize others for being imperfect and to make oneself feel elevated by comparison.

Seems this thread has a few people who simply dont or cannot read

manasi_seva "So its quite simple, I dont accept your arguments that it is okay to partake in commercial milk and thats my personal choice as it is your choice to do otherwise. I guess thats one of the assertive rights that we all have. "

[quote][cite] manasi_seva:[/cite]Seems this thread has a few people who simply dont or cannot read

manasi_seva "So its quite simple, I dont accept your arguments that it is okay to partake in commercial milk and thats my personal choice as it is your choice to do otherwise. I guess thats one of the assertive rights that we all have. "[/quote]

Trying to be better than founder acharya is never a good thing.Srila Prabhupada drank commercial milk.Who cares what anyone else says?

One thing worth noting when Srila Prabhupada was on the planet most dairy farms were owned by families. They milked the cows twice a day and the cows roamed in lush green paddocks and enjoyed relatively peaceful lives and they lived 18-25 years.

In current times most of the family based dairy farms are selling out to the corporate farms where 20,000 or more cows live permanently in massive sheds, they never see the sunlight or a paddock, they lay down on sand and they are milked three times a day and pumped full of chemicals and antibiotics in order to keep up the high milk output.These cows usually end their productive life in 3-5 years and then sent off to the meat factory.

I find it quite strange how anyone can think that because someone raises this issue and decides not to partake in commercial milk is in any way, shape or form seeing themselves as better than Srila Prabupada?

If someone has personal conflict over the issue they have options and if you dont have any internal conflict then thats fine. There is no moral high ground here it is simply personal choice.

I did not start this thread I only wanted to see what other peoples thoughts on the issue are, but it seems the issue is quite polarized and draws standard responses and criticism. At this point I will withdraw from the discussion as the tone is dropping to a level of personal insults. If I have said anything to offend anyone please forgive me as that was not my intention. Hare Krishna!

Eating milk based prasadam is equally essential for developing spiritual intelligence now as it was 40 years ago.The way the cows were treated 40 years ago did change but cows did not.They are still as tolerant and holly as they were since the time immemorial.Most devotees have no other choice but to obtain their milk from ill treated cows.Their milk is still as important. I have seen quite a few devotees experiment with veganism,raw diet,milk avoidance,drinking soy milk etc. and in the process loose interest for spiritual topics.

This EXCESSIVE focus on health(read:material body) is often resulting in loss of spiritual health.When the milk from ill treated cows offered by sincere devotee comes in contact with lotus lips of Lord Shri Krishna both devotee and cows benefit.Devotees senses are satisfied and his brain is nourished for better understanding of divine matters.

I joined because tasting nice milk based prasadam on sunday feast and so did countless others.Please dont forget those who are yet to come and join due to tasting nectarean milk preparations offered to our Lord.Lets not deprive them because our personal preferences are getting in the way of what our Founder Acharya instructed us to follow.

74-12-27
Nairobi
My dear Parvati,
Please accept my blessings. I am in due receipt of your letter dated Dec. 21, 1974 and have noted the contents carefully.
Thank you very much for trying so hard so many times to send me milk sweets, like sandesh, etc. Unfortunately this last time they went bad on the way here, therefore they were not in offerable condition. The fact that you have offered them to me is what counts. Not so much whether I have personally eaten them or not. So thank you for your sincere efforts in pleasing me. Under all circumstances you must remain in the association of devotees. Do not let yourself fall out of this association. Even if it is very difficult and there may be many problems or disagreements still simply by remaining in the association of devotees and follow our regulative principles, chanting 16 rounds, rising early etc., you will become purified. If you leave the association of devotees to follow these regulative principles will be very difficult. Therefore stay in the association of devotees and continue making nice milk preparations for the Deities. And when I come there this spring I will be glad to accept them three times a day.
I hope this meets you in good health.
Your ever well-wisher,
A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami
ACBS/ps

Letter to: Parvati
'97
Bombay
27 December, 1974

Dairy Cow Slaughter Increases As Milk Prices Drop

http://cbs13.com/pets/milk.cows.dairy.2.936305.html

Excerpt from the article:

"Three months ago, mature milkers would sell for $2,500 to another dairy, but with nobody buying, dairymen are selling them on the beef market for only $1,100 each.

It is not just elderly cows that are going to slaughter, said Jon Dolieslager, owner of the Tulare County Stockyard in the heart of California dairy country.

The 262,500 slaughtered nationally in January is 43,500 more than in January 2008. Since September, federal livestock reports show that dairy cow slaughter is up 30 percent, while beef cow slaughter is down 14 percent.

"If milk was worth something, theyd be keeping them," said Dolieslager."

Milk prices turn higher; dairy farmers stop slaughtering herds !

http://www.cleveland.com/nation/index.ssf/2010/02/milk_prices_turn_higher_dairy.html

Excerpt:

"MILWAUKEE, Wisconsin - Only months ago, dairy producers were slaughtering an average of 50,000 dairy cows a week because a milk glut made it impossible to sell their milk for what it cost to produce. Now, with prices improving, dairy farmers are reversing course, saying theyll produce as much milk as possible this year.

Its a wise strategy, according to most industry experts. Milk prices are expected to rebound in 2010 thanks to improved U.S. sales and a recovering export market, so producing as much milk as they can may be the best way for dairy farmers to make up last years losses."

DRINK MILK.SAVE THE DAIRY COWS FROM SLAUGHTER!!!

Asuras degrade food, focusing on grains and milk:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monsanto#rBGH_.28recombinant_Bovine_Growth_Hormone.29

Ahimsa milk launched in the UK - The comments from the british public are encouraging

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1327006/Holy-cow-Pampered-cows-produce-Britains-expense-pint-milk-staggering-1-70.html