Pariprashnena — Q&A Archive

Cocoa and chocolate are not to be taken as they are intoxicants.
- Letter to Surasrestha, Los Angeles, June 14 1972

(b) Is it considered bonafide to offer preparations made with chocolate to the dieties?
If it is not intox'97can be offered.
- Letter to Paramahamsa, Amsterdam, May 27 1975

If chocolate is not an intoxicant, it can be offered to the Deities.
- Letter to Malati, Honolulu, June 8, 1975

Aside from Vedic standards, even by the standard of Swamijis New York disciples the devotees in San Francisco were not very strict. Some continued going to the doughnut shop, eating food without offering it to Krsna, and eating forbidden things like chocolate and commercial ice cream. Some even indulged in after-kirtana cigarette breaks right outside the temple door. Some got initiated without knowing precisely what they had agreed to practice.
- SP Lilamrta 3.22

you cant beat VEDA... you just cant...
:)

hehe lol
:D

I guess you mean Vedabase. ;)

Vedabase has everything, but you, prabhu, you know so much even about softwares and stuff. :D

in india they call chocolate to candies... so it can be confusing...

Original question:

"can you produce a quote about not eating chocolate?"

ok. "Dont eat chocolate."

:)

"Cocoa and chocolate are not to be taken as they are intoxicants.
- Letter to Surasrestha, Los Angeles, June 14 1972"

Clear and to the point.

But devotees eat a lot of chocolate.

Ekendra Prabhus comment was funny, hence the "thanks"

>"Cocoa and chocolate are not to be taken as they are intoxicants.
- Letter to Surasrestha, Los Angeles, June 14 1972"
Clear and to the point.

But what about other two quotes that VEDA posted, about offering chocolate to the Deities if it is not an intoxicant? I am confused..

me too.

VEDA wants to confuse us... :P

Nothing to be confused about. Prabhupada instructs us that if something is not an intoxicant then it is ok to offer. If chocolate was not an intoxicant then it would be ok to offer.

but is it or not????

Prabhupada instructs us that if something is not an intoxicant then it is ok to offer. If chocolate was not an intoxicant then it would be ok to offer. Chocolate is an intoxicant so it is not ok to offer.

:)))) Sorry no loopholes :)))))

Sorry, still confused. In the above quotes Prabhupada didnt say "If chocolate was not an intoxicant then it would be ok to offer". He said "If chocolate is not an intoxicant, it can be offered to the Deities." Also, in the second one "Is it considered bonafide to offer preparations made with chocolate to the dieties?
If it is not intox'97can be offered." In this letter he didnt just answer "no, it is an intoxicant", but rather that if the preparation (or chocolate) is not intoxicating,then it can be offered. The meaning that I naturally derive from these two quotes is that some of the chocolate can be intoxicating, and some not. Totally confusing.

better we offer carob and be happy!!!

I think if it would be an intoxicant, in this case chocolate, it cant be offered to the deities. But if it wouldnt be then you could. But it is so you cant offer it. Is this it?

saryu & shina matajis, here are two posts from sita-patis blog on chocolate. i find them helpful in considering the question if chocolate really is an intoxicant or not:

http://www.atmayogi.com/node/230
http://www.atmayogi.com/node/225

the question if it can be offered to your deities doesnt really arise unless you made the chocolate yourself: you cant offer things prepared by non-devotees. and if you go through the whole trouble of making chocolate, why not use carob instead, as shina suggested?

to me it seems as if youre a little fixated on this chocolate issue; if thats true, perhaps that should be reason enough to stay away from it?

ys phani.

that saryu has a doubt on a confusing quote about something, doesnt mean that a fixation exists. Be it chocolate or anything for that matter.
I also find it somehow dual. Being a letter, "If it is not intox'97can be offered." can certainly give ground to doubts. And no, I do not eat chocolate. hehe

> doesnt mean that a fixation exists

not necessarily, i was only asking it thats possible.

thing is i dont find the quotes mentioned here confusing. some say "if intox., then no," and others say that its intox. so the result is no. and theres also scientific evidence that says cocoa contains intoxicating chemicals. wheres the doubt?

ys phani.

>that saryu has a doubt on a confusing quote about something, doesnt mean that a fixation exists. Be it chocolate or anything for that matter.
I also find it somehow dual. Being a letter, "If it is not intox'97can be offered." can certainly give ground to doubts. And no, I do not eat chocolate. hehe>

Thank you, couldnt say it better myself. I dont eat chocolate either, and no one does in my family. My personal opinion gathered from experience is that it is very addictive and is a mild intoxicant. However I know many devotees who think otherwise, and I know at least one temple where chocolate is served to devotees as prasad (not in pure form, but as part of cakes, ice-cream etc). I was wonering whether devotees find justification to do so in one of the above-mentioned quotes. And I would really like to know what Srila Prabhupada meant when he was writing that chocolate was an intoxicant in one letter, and writing that it might or might not be in another.

and if intoxication is not enough...beware of chocolate bars etc as they possibly now contain rennet.

And eggs sometimes too.

sorry for suggesting you might be glued to chocolate while you dont even eat it; will try to be more careful in the future.

> I would really like to know what Srila Prabhupada meant when he was writing that chocolate was an intoxicant in one letter, and writing that it might or might not be in another.

isnt that rather obvious? he didnt know. he was not omniscient in the same way visnu is: he didnt know all technical and chemical details of the universe. he was trained and working as a pharmacist, but the exact ingredients of cocoa and their effect on the body chemistry have not been analyzed until fairly recently. his pharmacological training didnt include these.

heres a wikipedia-article listing all active ingredients of cocoa, explaining how they influence our bodies and minds: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chocolate#As_a_stimulant

i dont think there is any doubt that cocoa contains intoxicating chemicals; milder than coffee in its stimulating effect, but having other effects as well. and together with SPs letters, saying "if ... then no," that shouldnt leave any room for doubt if were supposed to eat it or not: were not.

ys phani.

another thought on chocolate: offering cocoa-preparations made by devotees to the deities might actually be ok. in many indian temples betelnut is offered, but not taken by devotees; they give it to outsiders instead.

offering betelnut is actually one of the 64 items offered in elaborate deity worship, described in haribhakti vilas. chocolate is not, but if its done in the spirit of offering something very nice to your deities, they might enjoy it. you could distribute it to friends who dont follow the 4 regs afterwards.

ys phani.

Is it considered bonafide to offer preparations made with chocolate to the dieties?
If it is not intox'97can be offered.
- Letter to Paramahamsa, Amsterdam, May 27 1975

If chocolate is not an intoxicant, it can be offered to the Deities.
- Letter to Malati, Honolulu, June 8, 1975

merry-go-round... :)

yes, shot myself in the foot here.

seeing the whole letters these quotes come from i could possibly try to argue that "offering to the deities" refers to "offering and then distributing to the devotees," but its not worth my effort or your time. theres no real need for chocolate-preparations to be offered.

ys phani.

this sounds me like Tamal Krsna Goswamis reply when he was asked about gay marriage in ISKCON...

he said "if its for procreation its ok"...

I heard that Prabhupada said that when you have doubts, better dont offer... so...

and what about white chocolate? is it intoxicant or not? because I never liked chocolate very much but I liked white chocolate and maybe I can eat... oops... offer it and Im not offering it :P

> and what about white chocolate?

re. intoxicating: look what it contains. cocoa is intoxicating, some other possible things my even be non-veg. (sometimes tricky, if they show mysterious codes; to be sure youll have to look those up via google.)

re. offering: depends on your standard of deity worship. if you generally offer things prepared by outsiders, it may be ok; but thats not a very high standard ...

Shina, that sounds more like a comment applicable to sex, rather than to marriage....

And while were at it, can I ask for some guidance please? Being loyal to Srila Prabhupada, ISKCON and ISKCON gurus as I am, I am not sure how to react to the rumours that some of the ISKCON sannyasis do eat chocolate. I kind of believe it, because I heard it from different unrelated sources. If it is true, how the common folk can be blamed for eating and offering it? "Whatever action a great man performs, common men follow. And whatever standards he sets by exemplary acts, all the world pursues" (BG 3.21). I was told by my Guru Maharaja that eating chocolate is low standard, but how I can look up to someone and trust in their competent leadership if they follow low standards? After all this being said, I also realize that the devotees I know who eat chocolate actually are more advanced than I am, so I kind of learned to accept the fact that whether one eats or doesnt eat chocolate doesnt say anything about the persons spiritual advancement.

If you follow His Holiness Sivarama Swami, chocolate is no longer banned in ISKCON, according to his podcast from mid-last year.

"sitapati Comments:
If you follow His Holiness Sivarama Swami, chocolate is no longer banned in ISKCON, according to his podcast from mid-last year. "

I find this disturbing. Srila Prabhupada says no to intoxicants which chocolate is one. I feel deeply that Srila Prabhupadas instructions over rule such changes.

Another issue that refuses to die. ;)

One thing scarcely mentioned in these chocolate discussions is that there is no guarrantee that chocolate (or any factory-processed food for that matter, but sweets are obviously much more vulnerable) is vegetarian. The last article in this newsletter (in Czech language) is about disinfestation (anti-insect and anti-rodent warfare) in food factories:
http://www.agroporadenstvi.cz/poradenstvi/Ecasopisy/PZ8-2004.pdf

Then I specifically asked about this at main Czech agro servers help desk and they admitted there is no way to eliminate such pollution but its a thing they really dont like to divulge...

I heard that the cocoa coming from third world is infested with rodents, "raches", etc. What a nice way to start disliking chocolate. No philosophy, no quotes needed :)

Last night my GM gave me a tablet of chocolate in my dreams so I think I should stop commenting here or I will end up eating it!!!!

Time for this thread to melt.... :)

Im sorry for bringing up such an old topic, but since there are still some places that still offer chocolate to the deities (like Dallas), Id like to point out that Ayurveda places chocolate on the same level as garlic and onions.

Chocolate - VPK +; rajasic and tamasic
Good for depression, hypotension, and or a warm/hot drink

Most of the foods we eat are sattvic, with a little bit of rajasic foods like chillies, which should be taken in winter times.

Source: Ayurveda Encyclopedia by Swami Sada Shiva Tirtha

Haribol

If someone has the ISKCON Law book, it had a law in it, I think from 1997, stating that chocolate was forbidden.

I dont have the quote but somewhere I read that Prabhupada states that if there is intoxicant then we can not offer or ingest. Chocolate has caffeine in it.

Ive heard that it is not the caffeine that is so much the intoxicant in the choc - rather theobromine which is the aphrodesiac, depression lifting, feel good substance heavy choc eaters get hooked on. Apparently it stimulates neurotransmitters in the brain that make ya feel good.

ISKCON Law Book (2003 version)

8.5 General Guidelines
8.5.1 Prohibition of Chocolate
As it contains various stimulants like caffeine (contained in coffee), theine (contained in black tea) and theobromine (contained in cocoa), chocolate should not be eaten by ISKCON devotees.(93)

(it is actually from 1993 - no.31)

However there is a Chocolate proposal for some years now - it have never gained a majority (give it a few years of recession:)

So a couple of years ago there was a discussion in Mayapura. Some GBC members wanted to rescind that law, because it turns out that chocolate doesnt have caffeine in it.

Afterwards HH Sivarama Swami announced on his podcast that chocolate was no longer banned in ISKCON. However, there was no official pronouncement from the GBC and other GBC members disputed it when questioned.

Interesting factoid: Some medical research indicates that two pieces of dark chocolate (70+% cocoa) per day reduces your chances of heart disease.

but what about those quotes by SP on the first post? he said no chocolate.

oh, and what about white chocolate?

If chocolate is officially allowed, might as well allow garlic and onions as well.

It is a GBC resolution. If the a number of GBCs do not follow it themselves and contradict the resolution that is based on Prabhupadas instruction, how can we take them seriously or should they expect it anyway? In a way I have not problem with them being relaxed about it, it will not make me eat it, but how can someone summon respect if he does not follow his own authority? Besides the above any other GBCs eat choc? (BTW choc does contain caffeine, just a little bit). I guess they were not there yet when the resolution was taken... but the point remains, if they choose and pick if they can eat chocolate or not, what about regular members?

Cocoa and chocolate are not to be taken as they are intoxicants.
- Letter to Surasrestha, Los Angeles, June 14 1972

(b) Is it considered bonafide to offer preparations made with chocolate to the dieties?
If it is not intox'97can be offered.
- Letter to Paramahamsa, Amsterdam, May 27 1975

If chocolate is not an intoxicant, it can be offered to the Deities.
- Letter to Malati, Honolulu, June 8, 1975

These are three sutras given by Srila Prabhupada in very simple English. I do not know why our GBCs can not understand these sutras though they claim to understand Vedanta Sutras which are given in much more complicated Sanskrit language.

Already thirty years have passed and these three sutras havent been decoded. Maybe we need thirty more years or do we need to ask help from H.H.Narayana Maharaja to write a commentary on these sutras so that we can understand them and finally GBC can make a resolution about this :)

yeah but what about white chocolate? I heard it is ok.
but i also heard black chocolate is good now.

[quote][cite] Paltu Dasa:[/cite]Cocoa and chocolate are not to be taken as they are intoxicants.
- Letter to Surasrestha, Los Angeles, June 14 1972

(b) Is it considered bonafide to offer preparations made with chocolate to the dieties?
If it is not intox'97can be offered.
- Letter to Paramahamsa, Amsterdam, May 27 1975

If chocolate is not an intoxicant, it can be offered to the Deities.
- Letter to Malati, Honolulu, June 8, 1975
:)[/quote]
All seems quite consistent to me if it is an intox (and it is addictive as well), is should not be offered. Even it was offered to deities you should not it because of above letter of 1972 and GBC resolution concluding it. All other opinions are generated by people who are addicted to choc.

"Cocoa products also contain stimulants such as phenylethylamine, which have an anti-depressant and
amphetamine-like effect; they contain pharmacological substances such as n-acetylethanolamines that
are related to cannabis (marijuana), and they have compounds that stimulate the brain to release an
opiate-like substance called anandamide. When drugs are used to block the brains opiate receptors,
the desire for chocolate (and other sweet and fatty foods) disappears - confirming the addictive nature
of these types of foods."

"As is the case with any other junk food - anything beyond a casual consumption of chocolate will result
in reduced - not improved health, without even going into some more immediate health concerns that
some individuals experience from consuming chocolate, such as allergic reactions, kidney stones,
heartburn or esophageal reflux, migraine headaches, fibrocystic breast disease, or aggravated PMS.
Nevertheless, in moderation, chocolate can certainly be the sinful delight it was meant to be!"

they even admit it. sinful delight. hehe

[quote][cite] sitapati:[/cite]

Interesting factoid: Some medical research indicates that two pieces of dark chocolate (70+% cocoa) per day reduces your chances of heart disease.[/quote]

interesting factoid: http://www.iloveindia.com/nutrition/recipes/non-veg-dishes/goodness-of-meat.html :)

Not to drink tea, is not a part of Sanatana dharma ( instructions given by Lord Krsna to Brahma and Narada then Vyasadeva and so on ) rather it is an instruction which was given by acharyas according to time, place and circumstances. If we go back into history, 150 years ago or may be less there was no such thing as tea in india. Hence there was no such instruction not to drink tea.

Tea plant was discovered by Britishers in India ( East India Company) who used to feed this tea to people free of charge. In the beginning of tea discovery, tea was distributed for free. But acharyas in that time decided it had intoxication so it was not fit to be consumed by aspirants of spiritual life. so we got the principle of no tea drinking from Srila Bhaktivinode thakur and Srila Bhaktisidhanta.

(b) Is it considered bonafide to offer preparations made with chocolate to the dieties?
If it is not intox'97can be offered.
- Letter to Paramahamsa, Amsterdam, May 27 1975

If chocolate is not an intoxicant, it can be offered to the Deities.
- Letter to Malati, Honolulu, June 8, 1975

Srila Prabhupada has given us the core principles of devotional life, now it is upto us to use our common sense.

Today we have chocolate, after 20 years they might come up with some other new substance, so again we will need to look at these core principles given by Srila Prabhupada.

There are hundreds of GBCs with different views and opinions on this issue. It is kaliyuga age of quarrel and disagreement so cant rely to look at GBC like a baby to for each single thing. Look at Srila Prabhupadas core principles and use your common sense.

Info from the USDA

1.0 cup chips has 34mg of Caffeine
10.0 kisses has 9mg of Caffeine
1.0 bar 1.55 oz has 9mg of Caffeine
1.0 bar miniature has 1mg of Caffeine

So far attending pujas at the houses of the Hindus there we can go and hold our kirtana but we should not take prasadam there. We can accept raw materials and take them to our temple but we should not accept any prasadam prepared by them. However, if they insist then we can take fruits and milk and offer them to Krishna. Cocoa and chocolate are not to be taken as they are intoxicants. -- This is letter that Prabhupada wrote in 1972.

[code] [/code]

the above quotes on "If it is not intox'97can be offered" (got thanks from Abhirama) are not actually Prabhupadas words:

["Is it considered bonafide to offer preparations made with chocolate to the dieties? If it is not intox'97can be offered." -- It is [b]not [/b]a letter to Malati by Prabhupada -- it is from a letter[b] by[/b] Malati dasi with a few questions to Paramahamsa Swami May 27, 1975 -- Not clear Prabhupadas words, Then Paramahamsa is quoting it back to her in a letter June 8, 1975.

a few months back I was at ISKCON Juhu, mumbai, and I saw a very nice cake. I asked... is this carob? yes yes (you know indians...). I got it and while eating it something was weird... it was chocolate!!!! at least it was good to know that I dont like chocolate anymore hehehe

Carob can be made to taste like chocolate.

Equal parts of carob powder, unsalted butter, and honey could make something that could pass by chocolate very well. Dont know if thats what ISKCON Juhu did.

everybody said it was chocolate just by the smell!! some people who eat it told me. I didnt notice because I had forgotten its taste hehehe but thank you for the cooking advice :)

My dear freinds ,within our iskcon society chocolate has been eaten for a very long time .....It was always left up to the temple presidents.....My temple president ate chocolate back in the early eighties......he promised to follow 4 regular principles....chocolate was never perceived to be an intoxicant so we all ate.My guru served it to krishna regularly,he also never considered it an intoxicant.We also used to serve krishna beetal nut a mild intoxicant however we never ate the beetal nut.Within the south pacific most Gbcs except Prabhu vishnu swami accepted chocolate as normal.

[quote][cite] sri_govinda_das:[/cite].Within the south pacific most Gbcs except Prabhu vishnu swami accepted chocolate as normal.[/quote] Where were they, when the GBC passed the resolution? If you are talking about Bhavananda, then he was not on GBC at that time but TKG was on.

I remember all the temple presidents and senior managers and Prabhupada disciples..... ....gbc harisauri ...prabhupada kripa swami,Chitahari das,balarama das sabhapati das...Kalasamvara das and many others jita garish das, mandapa das,jayadharma das enjoyed the chocolate rasa. ...different era .We were far more concerned wether the book scores were good ! and wether the bills for the temple were infact being paid.....Sydney used to be 15,000 a week including bhoga and book purchases ....that was minimum.Now the devotees worry about chocolate and their own situation......what happened was new devotees became self centred.Bring back the chocolate quick.