Pariprashnena — Q&A Archive

sorry to answer with another question but, what practical difference would that make at all?

To my understanding there would be no freedom if we cannot make the mistaken decission to allure ourselves in the material world, once we learn the lesson there is no come back as Bhagavad gita says.
That is possible because we have perfect knowledge in the spiritual world but not complete, it is like a big vessel and a small one, both full. Because we are tiny we can fall. Of course it is nothing like being a full fledged demon, just wanting to explore what is like being separated from the Lord.

There is an important aspect to this question. If we were in Vaikuntha and we came here how are we different from the nitya-siddhas who also apparently come down here in their lila? You can say there are never contaminated, but of course the soul never is so we are also never contaminated.

I have read a relevant portion of Jaiva Dharma where Bhaktivinode Thakura says (according to the translation I read) that the nitya-siddha jivas are expansions of Krishna and the marginal jivas (like me) are expansions of Maha-Vishnu. That is very clear we were not in Vaikuntha. We came from a marginal place and can now go to Vaikuntha.

This was a major controversy with His Holiness Gaura Govinda Swami and the GBC. HH GGS maintained this version by Bhaktivinod Thakura, but the GBC of that time which include people who are no longer in the ISKCON strongly maintained otherwise. Hence the book "Our Original Position." They said that Shrila Prabhupada said we fell from Vaikuntha. HH GGS maintained there is a Vaikuntha of prapanca (sense perception) mentioned in the shastras which is referred to also by Acharyas.

Vaikuntha of prapanca (sense perception ????

what is that?

There are philosophical positives and limitations to both ideas, the fall and the non-fall. Both can be correlated with various scriptural statements and both can be made philosophical consonant with our siddhanta on sambandha, abhideya, and prayojana.

So in other words, either one can work.

In terms of bhava, "Back Home, Back to Godhead" is the catch cry of the nitya-siddhas who come into this world to invite us back. This is raganuga-bhakti, following in the footsteps of the ragatmikas, so let us become coloured by that bhava and understanding, and when we really feel it, wake up in the spiritual world in the presence of Krishna.

Comes to my mind the example of someone hit by an arrow, wouldn?t waste time in trying to ascertain why it happen and all details, but concentrate mostly in cure efforts.

but...isnt it fun to speculate?

If we came from a marginal place then we have never been with Krishna before?
So how did we become envious of Him and all that?

Eze, "becoming envious of Krishna" belongs to the "fall from Vaikuntha" story, not the marginal energy story. Dont confuse the two. One is more philosophical, the other is more rooted in emotions. Both have value. You have to be able to accept that there are two different, apparently contradictory ways of looking at the issue. They dont have to be resolved at an intellectual level, but at a higher level of direct perception through realization.

I agree with Sitapati. We can say we were with Krishna because our relationship with Krishna is eternal and we are eternal. If we eternally have a relationship, I guess we are looking for a turning point where something happens and our situation changes.

We came from a different type of potency than the nitya-siddhas who are always with Krishna. We have things in common with them but things that are not in common. It is all quite mysterious, related to the eternal rasa of the living entity. I always wonder about the nature of people in this world and how much of their personality is an eternal aspect and how much is temporary. I suppose it only makes sense for devotees as they display their eternal characteristics in Krishnas service.

I am sorry, I do not have the books compiled from the lectures/conversations of HH GGS from Gopal Jiu publications. I would often see them in India, but havent seen them in the local temple (gift shop is small!). I cant even remember which book it is in. HH GGS mentions it is in the 9th canto and mentions a portion of it, but I could not find what Maharaj was referring to.

However in Jaiva Dharma it is quite clear (from the translation I read) that the nitya siddhas come from Krishnas personal potency and the nitya baddhas come from Maha-Vishnus potency. The personification of Krishnas marginal potency can never be in maya, they do lilas.... Maybe we can say we are personifications of Maha-Vishnus marginal potency covered in matter.

>Maybe we can say we are personifications of Maha-Vishnus marginal potency covered in matter.

So are we not person or a different kind or personality, less personal? :) kinda between person and impersonal energy?

I don'b4t get it.

that sounds like mayavada...
please explain.

Well we are persons and we are also marginal potency. (tatastha shakti) So we are personifications of a potency.

The jivas who are never conditioned (nitya mukta) are also tatastha I suppose because they are not bhagavan, but they are a different tatastha shakti.

How is this mayavada? we are not equating the shakti with the possessor of the shakti, anyway for followers of chaitanya mahaprabhu he took it pretty far saying that the souls have the same quality as the lord. We often give the example of the drop of ocean water having the same quality as the ocean

"personifications of a potency" or "person with potencies" ?
We conditioned souls are of a different energy than nitya mukta?
Sounds like the Lord creates souls that fall and others that do not.
If it is like that, pretty good joke but I do not like it (being in the losers camp).

What I understand is that the Lord hasnt exactly created us. We are eternal and the Lord is eternal. We are His marginal potency. It is described that the word created is used because we are eternally subordinate and dependent. Not in the usual material sense of created in the sense that at one point of time there is 1 entity, the creator, and at the next point in time there are 2 entities, creator & created. We are eternal and the Lord is eternal.

(I have heard this from a lecture somewhere, it is not something I have made up, but I cant remember where)

We were not created with consciousness to rebel. We are that consciousness that has to be reformed. It is our nature, so we cannot blame our nature on something external. And this sojourn in the material world is to form our consciousness into one that is worthy of the Lords association. How this material association affects our eternal spiritual consciousness is the mysterious part.

The person with potencies is the Lord, I was just playing word games and saying that we are persons and we are also the Lords potency. Therefore we are the personification of his potency.

In regards to creation, what about that famous statement "the Lord was one and then became many", how do you put that affirmation in context with your explanation?

But is this your understanding or the way it is?

I am just repeating what I have heard, I dont have references though. Ask some senior devotees.

If the soul is eternal then how was it created?

Do you think that statement of the Lord being one and expanding into many is limiting by time which anyway doesnt exist in the spiritual realm?

If someone is going to judge whether this is my understanding or the way it is then he would have to know reality so then I could ask him myself.

Simple for the simple...

Here is something that we read in Jaiva Dharma, chapter two, last night that nicely explains the limitations of philosophical conceptual orientation:

"I have explained all this to you in words, but you can only understand their true meaning to the extent that you have realized and experienced the unalloyed spiritual realm. I have just given you a glimpse; you should try to realize the meaning of what I have said through cit-samadhi, spiritual meditation. You will not be able to understand these topics through mundane logic or by debate. The more you can free your faculty of experience from material bondage, the more you will be able to experience the spiritual domain.

'93First you should cultivate the realization of your pure spiritual identity and practice chanting sri-krsna-nama purely, then your spiritual function known as jaiva-dharma will be clearly revealed."

There are multiple ways of describing the situation that differ in details but are unified in their conclusion: Chant Hare Krishna.

All are considered sastra: "the Vedic literature and literature in pursuance of the Vedic version".

"eko bahu shyama" --> " the One became many" , that is the exact quote

I think it is important to know that Krishna expanded Himself in many to expand His enjoyment. Exactly how and when, we can speculate until we think we are God or everything is One but not many.

Statements that usually do not fit square can be reconciliated with our philosophy.

Acintya bheda abheda tattva can be applied to this and to all others statements that seem not to fit in place. Like we are one with Krishna and at the same time different.

Sitapati Prabhu: Since you have prefaced the topic nicely, if you have the Jaiva dharma can you quote the section where the description of the Jivas origins is stated please? As you said we simply need to chant Hare Krishna, but still we can hear from the later chapters what was written.

Amala Gaura Prabhu, "cut and paste" siddhanta can a little misleading. In Jaiva Dharma the whole understanding is developed from ABCs to XYZ through the entirety of the presentation. If you want to understand the point of view presented in Jaiva Dharma in a substantial and real way, then I would recommend starting at the beginning of the book and reading it through to the end. It is available online here: http://www.bvml.org/SBNM/JaivaDharma/

Kesi-damana das has also done the ISKCON-blessed translation. I find it useful to read both together (although it works best when you have two people to do this). Ideally I would like to read it in the original Bengali.

Otherwise my point is that there are different ways of appreciating the inconceivable, and that we should be able to appreciate *that* and not think that one idea has to defeat or replace the other. Both the "fall from Vaikuntha" and "generation from tatastha-sakti" stories have great value - one especially in terms of philosophical coherency, the other especially in terms of generating that battle cry: "Back Home - Back to Godhead!", and the special feeling (raga) that goes with it.

(cut and paste)
"Although the Absolute Truth is one without a second, the sages have described Him in many different ways. Therefore one may not be able to acquire very firm or complete knowledge from one spiritual master."

- SB. 11.9.31
(/cut and paste)

Since I have reached the limits of my adhikara here are some writings from senior devotees.

First from Drutakarma prabhu:
http://bhagavata.net/avadhuta/files/Philosophy/Soul/Drutakarma%20soul%20file/Drutakarma%20soul%20file%20compl.htm

And here is from another source, disciples of BR Shridhar Swami
http://www.gosai.com/chaitanya/saranagati/html/vishnu_mjs/jiva/jiva_points.html
most of the pertinent shastric quotes are in part 4:
http://www.gosai.com/chaitanya/saranagati/html/vishnu_mjs/jiva/jiva_4.html

So if one can go through those and then make up their mind as to where the jiva came from and what he was doing before he decided to become a worm in stool. But the statements quoted above from Shrila Prabhupada are quite straightforward:

Shrila Prabhupada:
"The all-pervading feature of the Lord which exists in all circumstances of waking and sleeping as well as in potential states and from which the jiva-sakti (living force) is generated as both conditioned and liberated souls-is known as Brahman." (Isopanisad, Text 16, purport)

"As we have learned from previous mantras, the brahmajyoti emanating from the transcendental body of the Lord is full of spiritual sparks that are individual entities with the full sense of existence. Sometimes these living entities want to enjoy their senses, and therefore they are placed in the material world to become false lords under the dictation of the senses." (Isopanisad, Text 17, purport)

I must admit previously I had never gotten into such depth about this controversy. However getting into this has been quite fascinating and has made these spiritual topics more interesting for me.

This book is referenced above and is VERY fascinating. If there is a devotee wiki for spiritual/philosophical/scientific topics we can really discuss parts of this book and some devotees will really appreciate it: "Subjective Evolution of Consciousness"
http://bhagavata.net/avadhuta/files/Devotion%20-%20shastras/Bhakti%20Raksak%20Sridhar%20Dev-Goswami/About%20Bhakti%20Raksak%20Sridhar%20Dev-Goswami%20Maharaj.htm

I think this book can be used to preach to intellectual people. There are really some sections in it which I would like to get explained to me. There are some crazy indian intellectual phd people where i work, i wonder if they are beyond help or I should try preaching to them. He was already telling me how the Sumerian civilization is older than the Indian civilization. And what shastric quote can I whip out for him?

I wanted to send excerpts of that above book but the link no longer works. The books are available here:
http://www.bvml.org/SBRSM/books/index.html

This book is a chronology of the relationship between Shrila Prabhupada and his godbrother. There is a history involved in ISKCON that we newer members do not know about.

http://www.bvml.org/SBRSM/books/GUARDIEN.PDF

Bhaktivinoda Thakura (Kalyana Kalpataru) - About WE FALL FROM GOLOKA

(12)
krsna se parama-tattva prakrtir par
brajete bilasa krsna kore nirantar
Krsna is that Supreme Absolute Truth existing beyond the material energy. He eternally performs His daily pastimes within the realm known as Vraja.
(13)
cid-dhama-bhaskara krsna, tanra jyotirgata
ananta citkana jiba tisthe avirata
Krsna is the shining sun of this all-cognizant spiritual abode, and within His effulgence dwell innumerable fine particles of pure cognizance called jiva.
(14)
sei jiba prema-dharmi, krsna-gata-prana
sada krsnakrstha, bhakti-sudha kore pana
These jiva souls are by very nature full of pure ecstatic love and are all the dearly beloved of Lord Krsna. Always being attracted by Krsna, they continuously drink the ambrosial nectar of devotion.
(15)
nana-bhava-misrita piya dasya-rasa
krsner ananta-gune sada thake basa
Enjoying a mixture of various moods in the mellow of servitude, the jivas eternally remain subjugated and controlled by Krsna;s unlimited virtuous qualities.
(16)
krsna mata, krsna pita, krsna sahka, pati
ei sab bhinna-bhava krsna kore rati
They also love Krsna in all the different moods of being related to Him as a mother, father, friend, or husband.
(17)
krsna se purusa ek nitya brndabane
jiba-gana nari-brnda, rame krsna sane
Eternally in Vrndavana Krsna is the only male (purusa), and all the jivas there enjoy pastimes in His company in the role of females (prakrti).
(18)
sei to ananda-lila jar nai anta
ataeva krsna-lila akhanda ananta
There is no end to all of these blissful pastimes; therefore Krsnas pastimes are known for being undisputedly supreme and unlimited.
(19)
je-sab jiber bhoga-banca upajilo
purusa bhavete tara jade paravesilo
All the souls, in whom the desire to enjoy separately awakens, have to enter into the material world under the false conception of being a male (a purusa).
(20)
maya-karya jada maya--nitya-sakti-chaya
krsna-dasi sei satya, kara-kartri maya
Illusory material activities as well as maya herself are both the shadow reflections of the eternal potency. In reality, maya is the eternal maidservant of Krsna, but her job is to be in charge of operating the prison-house of the material world.
(21)
sei maya adarser samasta bisesa
loiya gathilo bisva jahe purna klesa
This illusory energy maya, has created the material universe exactly like an imitation model of the real spiritual variegatedness, but with the added feature of being full of various miseries.
(22)
jiba jadi hoilena krsna-bahimukha
mayadevi tabe tar jachilena sukha
If by chance a living entity becomes averse to the Supreme Lord Krsna, then Mayadevis duty is to voluntarily offer her temptations of material happiness.
(23)
maya-sukhe matta jiba sri-krsna bhulilo
sei se avidya-base asmita janmilo
Intoxicated by mayas illusory happiness, the living entity then forgets Krsna. Under the influence of such ignorance, false egoistic selfishness arises.
(24)
asmita hoite hoilo maya-bhinivesa
taha hoite jadagata raga ar dvesa
From such selfishness she becomes raptly absorbed in illusion, and then she develops angry grudges and envious hatred towards other living entities.
(25)
eirupe jiba karma-cakre pravesiya
uccavaca-gatikrame phirena bhramiya
In this fashion, the living entities are entering the wheel of fruitive activities, oscillating thereupon, and gradually wandering up and down.

BSST explains it plainly: http://www.veda.harekrsna.cz/encyclopedia/philosophy2.htm#4

BSST the another idea also plainly:

'93The individual souls serve Shri Krsna as constituents of Shri Radhika. When they forget that they are constituents of Shri Radhika, they forget the nature of their own selves and engage in the abnormal activities of the mundane plane.'94 [Shri Chaitanya'92s Teachings, p. 615]

sorry:
BSST explains the another idea...

So what is the solution?

Prabhupada gave the solution:

Srila Prabhupada said on April 20, 1972, in Tokyo, Japan - '93no one falls from Vaikuntha.'94 Srila Prabhupada says that we were originally with Krsna and are now in a situation where '93we think we have fallen'92.

Srila Prabhupada '96 '93Just like one man is dreaming and he forgets himself. In the dream he creates himself in different forms: now I am the King discussing like that'94.

Srila Prabhupada - '93This creation of himself is as seer and subject matter or seen, two things. But as soon as the dream is over, the "seen" disappears. But the seer remains. Now he is in his original position'94.

Srila Prabhupada '96 '93Our separation from Krsna is like that. We dream this body and so many relationships with other things. First the attachment comes to enjoy sense gratification. Even with Krsna desire for sense gratification is there'94.

...
So both idea is right. The quotes from scripures not contradict.

> The individual souls serve Shri Krsna as constituents of Shri Radhika. When they forget...

It doesnt exclude the santa rasa. Forgetting an active service is more difficult to imagine, imho.

"Falling" is an unfortunate, improper word here. "Leaving/turning away (bahirmukha) due to ones free will" is the version of guru-sastra-sadhus (well, not all). And yes, when back, it must look like a blink in time, a dream.

Dear Veda!

So do you have the same conclusion as Prabhupada? (- That both idea is right.)

Sorry, I dont have the exact quote right at the moment but Srila Prabhupada instructed us not to worry how we got here just work on getting out.

and IMHO, to answer someone elses question - no speculation is not fun. It is a waste of time.

to Acyutananda: They are just two angles of vision, imho.
But the whole issue started since Srila Prabhupada gave at least three views of jivas origin - 1. from Vaikuntha/Goloka (above quotes), 2. from brahmajyoti (in Iso), 3. still liberated but having a material dream (above quotes).
If we take brahmajyoti origin as secondary (jivas already on the way out since brahmajyoti is external to Vaikuntha/Goloka), it may be harmonized. This is my understanding.

to Hari Bhakta dasa: Agreed. But there are many inquisitive persons and we say our teachings explain everything. ;)

I am going to repeat a comment I made earlier from Shrila Prabhupada:

"As we have learned from previous mantras, the brahmajyoti emanating from the transcendental body of the Lord is full of spiritual sparks that are individual entities with the full sense of existence. Sometimes these living entities want to enjoy their senses, and therefore they are placed in the material world to become false lords under the dictation of the senses." (Isopanisad, Text 17, purport)

If you read the purport (Iso17) further, you will find this: "Becoming one with the brahmajyoti does not represent mature knowledge... "
So Srila Prabhupada gives the origin of the jivas in brahmajyoti. But we talk about the FIRST "falldown" from spiritual world. So this isnt relevant. Srila Prabhupada never said that our primary origin is the brahmajyoti. He explained that our nature is tatastha, that is a main characteristic, not a place of origin.
We can find just one so called "contradiction": Many times He said that we fall from Goloka/Vaikuntha, and many times He said we never falls from Goloka/Vaikuntha. If we examine the above-mentioned Tokio lecture, we will see that both approach is true:
"we were originally with Krsna and are now in a situation where '93we think we have fallen'92."
So we have not fallen, the falldown is just like a dream. A dream of the material life - that we are in...

Acytuananda:
I dont follow your logic.

"So Srila Prabhupada gives the origin of the jivas in brahmajyoti. But we talk about the FIRST "falldown" from spiritual world. So this isnt relevant. Srila Prabhupada never said that our primary origin is the brahmajyoti."

What is the difference between origin & primary origin? And what is not relevant? And what is the relevance of the first sentence you quote from later in the purport? Prabhupadas statement is quite clear to me.

Thanks for reminding that this material experience is illusory!

A note on this, Shrila Prabhupada mentioned that his Shiksha guru was/is BR Shridhar Swami, who used to live in Shrila Prabhupadas home and with whom they shared Vaishnava Sangha. If Shrila Prabhupadas shiksha guru gave a clear explanation of the issue, then would Prabhupada disagree with him? This is the same Vaishnava of whom Shrila Prabhupada said had such high realization that if we heard it we would "faint".

So yes technically Prabhupada could disagree with him and Acharyas do disagree with each other. But DID he disagree with him?
http://www.gosai.com/chaitanya/saranagati/html/vishnu_mjs/jiva/jiva_points.html

Once again, please see this link,
http://www.gosai.com/chaitanya/saranagati/html/vishnu_mjs/jiva/jiva_4.html
The last references are from our beloved Shrila Prabhupada. I find them convincing enough.

I personally do not think that Shrila Prabhupada disagreed in this point with those whom he called his shiksha guru and found the reading the OOP book very pedantic. One of the main contributors and sponsors was Harikesh Prabhu. While that may not render the book invalid, it certainly gives it less value in my estimation than the opinion of self-realized Vaishnavas.

This debate will not end! We will have to realize this ourselves when we go to Lord Krishnas abode and dance with Him. Maybe we will remember if we left his association or we have come the first time!!!

The nice Prabhupada quote says it all.
Sitapatis explanations impress me, and make the matter very clear.

We are spiritual beings, living in a spiritual reality. There is no other reality. So thus we are still in the spiritual reality, or spiritual world. The only way to leave that spiritual place is to imagine us being somewhere else, in the material world. That imagining is aided by Maya, that creates the illusion of a non-spiritual virtual reality.

So we did not fall down, since we are still in the spiritual world, but we are trapped in the virtual reality of the material world. That entrapment in illusion, is what we call "falling down".

Now, the spiritual reality is a huge place, actually unlimited. We can occupy all kinds of positions, relationships and rasas. Prabhupada said that we should not worry about that too much, but just take the invitation to enter Krishna-lila.

The reason for our falldown, or that we entered the illusion of the material world, is that we desired something that is available here, and nowhere else. Something that is impossible to do, due to the nature of things, without being put into illusion of how things really are.

I would say that one of the most prominent things of the material world is our desire to be something that we are not, i.e. to be someone else, and to make others do our will against theirs. Both things are impossible in the pure non-illusory state, so both desires require the illusion of the material world to be fulfilled. Krishna can do both things, so we can call that to be envious of Krishna, to want to do what he can do and we cant. Now, even though Krishna can make us do things against our will, he does not. But we still want to do it, and find ourselves in the material illusion, where we can believe that we do.

Therefore, to get out of illusion, the most important things is to stop to desire to be something else then we are, and thus to become self-relalized of who we really are, and to stop desiring others to do what we want, and thus to become humble. To tolerate what others do to us, without desiring to do it to them, and to be humble and accept what we are and never want to force others to do are will, are two very important tools, since it directly attacks the very reason we came here in the first place.

Comments on this quotation, I dont have more context than this:

Shrila Jiva Goswami in Bhakti Sandarbha (anuccheda 1.1)
paramatma-vaibhava ganane ca tatastha-shakti-rupanam cid eka rasanam api

"The tatastha-jivas are vaibhava emanations of paramatma"

Since bhakti is the vrtti (natural faculty or occupation) of the svarupa-shakti, it is not available to the tatastha-jivas who are the vaibhava emanations of paramatma.

From Mathura Meets Vrindavana by HH Gaura Govinda Swami, page 2
---

Maharaj writes that "Bhakti is not the vrtti, the natural faculty or occupation, of the tatastha jiva-shakti, the marginal living entities."

So is it is being said that originally jivas did not have bhakti as bhakti belongs to Krishnas internal potency. Therefore we come to this material world to gain bhakti. It is not something that we gain from outside, but it IS connecting to Krishnas internal potency.

I heard a lecture by Suhotra M. were he mentioned a quote from Prabhupada were he said that BRAHMAN is already a FALLEN position.

So you dont fall down from there. You fall from Vaikuntha, then from the impersonal brahman you degrade more and more to the point where you are here posting in this forum.
hehe

Can you give any shastric quote for this opinion that we fall from Vaikuntha to impersonal brahman then to material world?

What is the logic that we do not come from a Fallen position?

Sorry I only know that he mentioned it in a seminar called Philosophy of transcendence

I was in Bhubaneshwar when H H GGS gave a class and said the jeeva never falls from Vaikuntha or something like that. After class I went right to where I was told to do service by GGS at the temple gift shop where there were some small books of Srila Prabhupadas. I opened up a book and there was a sentence stating exactly the opposite of what my guru had just said, "The living entity has fallen from the spiritual world" or something like that.
I told this to the devotee from Orissa I was with who spoke English and he told my gurus secretary who brought the book up to him immediately. Naturally I was afraid of what might happen next. A few moments later the secretary came back and I asked him what my guru said. He said, "Oh, he said like that?" and just laughed.
Who can understand the activities of the pure devotees?

but they drive us crazy!

[youtube]oAofpM5xfnQ[/youtube]

Perhaps a more pertinent question might be: "Did Srila Prabhupada teach us that we fell from Vaikuntha, or Krishnaloka"?

Because in one sense its a belief, a mental orientation. You can chant Hare Krishna and do sadhana thinking either that *you* fell from Krishnaloka (ala Prabhupadas instruction) or that you originated in the tatastha-sakti, ala Srila Sridhara Maharaja, following SBBST, or without thinking about that at all.

The important thing is to follow the mood of a ragatmika-bhakta, and the mood of Srila Prabhupada is one of "Krishnaloka is my home, I must return back to home, back to Godhead". As a nitya-siddha parsada that would be the reality of his situation and his internal realization, and we would do well to take shelter of that bhava.

Otherwise different Gaudiya Vaisnavas and different groups of Gaudiya Vaisnavas are doing their bhajan with various doctrinal understandings of the origin of "the jiva" (isnt there more than one?). All respect to them and to their understandings, and we also have our take, coming from our Srila Prabhupada.

sitapati:
When do you expect the robes and english kirtans again? Please make an estimation.

Krsna says in BG that one who REACHES His abode never returns. Thus it is obvious to me that nobody falls from Vaikuntha. Some souls in the Viraja river of Brahmajyoti chose the bright bank (spiritual sky), some chose the dark bank (material world).

We know by now KP that you endorse anything that differs from what Srila Prabhupada says; is your favorite pastime. Did you watch that video up there? Ah, yes. Of course.

The nature of the soul is the basis of sambhandha jnana. When it is explained from the samkya or devotional analytical point of view, it should be clear that soul does not fall from vaikuntha. If the same sambandha jnana is explained in the perspective of abhideya in terms of practice of developing of the rasas, it is said that originally the soul is of neutral rasa and develops the rasa in the process of practice of bhakti. On the other hand from the point of view of prayodjana, all souls are originally Krishna conscious servants of Krishna, and a devotee of Radha Krishna sees all souls as originally servants of Radha. Thus the development of the basic sambandha presentation according to the context will change the nature of the answer, however it is clearly wrong to suggest that one is right and another is wrong. One needs to be able to accommodate all the above views, as all are ultimately right, as all lead to the same goal of life of the jiva. Without understanding the context of the presentation and the very same ultimate nature of the jiva, cut out quotes are actually WRONG and confusing.

Mishra prabhu, whats with the ad hominem attacks on myself and Kula-pavana?

[quote][cite] sitapati:[/cite]Mishra prabhu, whats with the ad hominem attacks on myself and Kula-pavana?[/quote]
My view is that it is a common tactic if you are not able to relate to the unity in diversity by the means of the spiritual intellect. BTW Sitapati and Kula-pavana Prabhus, your answers and input are highly appreciated. Just as the following words of Bhagavata:
tan me sva-bhartur avasayam alaksamanau - These servants of Mine have transgressed against you, not knowing the mind of their master.
Prabhupada states: "From this statement we can understand how anxious the Lord is to get his servitor back into Vaikuntha. This incident, therefore, proves that those who have once entered a Vaikunthaplanet can never fall down. The case of Jaya and Vijaya is not a falldown; it is just an accident." So lets be positive and intelligent about the issue.

Another interesting quote confirming that for an ordinary person there are obvious difficulties in conceiving logically the reality of the descend of a jiva and the Vaikuntha:

"This very significant question would be difficult for an ordinary person to answer, but Narada Muni, being an authority, could answer it. Therefore Maharaja Yudhisthira inquired from him, saying, etad akhyatum arhasi: "only you can explain the reason." From authoritative sources it can be discerned that associates of Lord Visnu who descend from Vaikuntha do not actually fall. They come with the purpose of fulfilling the desire of the Lord, and their descent to this material world is comparable to that of the Lord. ... it is to be understood that when Jaya and Vijaya descended to this material world, they came because there was something to be done for the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Otherwise it is a fact that no one falls from Vaikuntha." SB 7

Lets leave behind the fighting spirit of Jaya and Vijaya and not look for enemies in the places where enemies do not exist.

This topic comes up time after time on devotee forums and discussion groups. It causes heated debates due to everyones different understandings of the explanations.

I perfer to remember Prabhupadas response to the question of how we got here.

Dont worry about how we got here. Just work on getting out.

That simple statement satisfies me.

So for example if you say we fell from Goloka, and we all go there again, (everybody on this thread), and we do something wrong in Goloka. And we fall down again, then we come back to this forum, talk about it here, then go back to Goloka. I want to ask a how is it possible exactly to fall from a place where No Maya exsist? I think In Christianity Adam and Eve fell from Heaven so some Hare Krishnas put 2+2 together and got 5. ?

Pankajadasa prabhu, please read through the answers given so far and step back a little for a wider view.

What is the purpose of describing something that is beyond our experience? If we cannot interact with it, then what purpose does such an explanation serve?

For example, if I tell you something about how to deal with snakes, then you are able to deal with a snake when you see it

On the other hand, if I talk to you about something that is completely outside your realm of experience and also your realm of possible experience, then what purpose will this serve?

This is an argument put forward by the karma-mimamsa school, and addressed by Baladeva Vidyabhusana in his Govinda Bhasya. The Karma-mimamsa school argues that scriptural injunctions must consist of a practical command to action. Anything else should be rejected, as it has no practical value.

Baladeva counters that descriptions of Brahman are also useful information. He gives an example: if I tell you that treasure is buried under your house then I have not given you any practical command. However, that information will act to inspire you to dig under your house to find that treasure.

In the same way, the discussion of a doctrine of the "origin of the jiva" is intended to pacify the intellect and motivate the individual to action. It is not meant to allow people to say "we have the right answer about this!", and settle for some intellectual understanding.

If nothing else, we should understand that such a subject is ultimately inconceivable to the material mind, as it takes place purely beyond the realm of space and time. We have no material experience or terminology to conceive of or explain it.

In order to pacify the minds of the people and help to motivate them to action that will propel them beyond space and time to realize the reality of these things through direct perception the acaryas have explained this subject in various ways.

Srila Prabhupada has followed the standard Gaudiya Vaisnava theology of "no fall from Vaikuntha", as we have seen many examples quoted from his purports in this thread. He has also given a strong motivational message of "Back Home, Back to Godhead!". He has also indicated that understanding or considering this subject is meant for increasing our motivation in practical action, otherwise it is useless speculation. We have seen all three of these aspects discussed in this thread. Different devotees have emphasized different ones. All three are there, and they all co-exist for a reason.

[quote][cite] mishra:[/cite]We know by now KP that you endorse anything that differs from what Srila Prabhupada says; is your favorite pastime. Did you watch that video up there? Ah, yes. Of course.[/quote]

Outside of Iskcon nobody thinks jivas fell from Vaikuntha... go figure... GBC made that philosophical determination by a vote... now, THAT is a way to settle a siddhantic matter!

Srila Prabhupada said and did so many things outside the "norm". Thanks God, so you and me can discuss and even be here talking about this.
And again, even if Srila Prabhupada clearly and distinctly says so as the the testimony in the video states, that has no value for you. What was your name again?

Hare Krishna,

Saw the video Misra prabhu, The devotee there says when he asked Prabhupada that Krishna says nobody ever falls from Goloka, Prabhupada says Krishna means Practically Never, (prabhupada says with wry smile).

Now being an Indian person, (okay maybe that doesnt make a difference), but for me its just Prabhupada being funny, and saying to his disicples that if you dunno follow then youll fall. BECAUSE..

Krishna is GOD not some person who will say Never and Mean maybe never. Prabhupada gave something difference, no he didnt, he gave something thats been given since 5000 Years ago.

Re: sitapati prabhuji:
(quote):In the same way, the discussion of a doctrine of the "origin of the jiva" is intended to pacify the intellect and motivate the individual to action. It is not meant to allow people to say "we have the right answer about this!", and settle for some intellectual understanding.(end quote)

Okay, but many religions dont really say where we came from, for example Chritians believe they fell from Heaven I think, and Muslims I am not sure. Its sort of almost like science fiction about where we came from. But if we use our commen sence, then you have to wonder, because in all religions it says once going back to the spiritual world a person never returns. So that begs question were we really EVER in the spiritual world or are we calling God a liar!

[quote][cite] Pankajadasa:[/cite]Hare Krishna,

Saw the video Misra prabhu, The devotee there says when he asked Prabhupada that Krishna says nobody ever falls from Goloka, Prabhupada says Krishna means Practically Never, (prabhupada says with wry smile).

Now being an Indian person, (okay maybe that doesnt make a difference), but for me its just Prabhupada being funny, and saying to his disicples that if you dunno follow then youll fall. BECAUSE..

Krishna is GOD not some person who will say Never and Mean maybe never. Prabhupada gave something difference, no he didnt, he gave something thats been given since 5000 Years ago.
[/quote]

Are there any clear instances of Srila Prabhupada using sarcasm to give instruction on a perplexing subject? I wouldnt just assume Srila Prabhupada is joking.

[quote][cite] mishra:[/cite]Srila Prabhupada said and did so many things outside the "norm". Thanks God, so you and me can discuss and even be here talking about this.
And again, even if Srila Prabhupada clearly and distinctly says so as the the testimony in the video states, that has no value for you. What was your name again?[/quote]

What I take from this is that in his preaching Srila Prabhupada was very keen on promoting the idea of original sin (rejection of Krsna in his personal aspect), and that of Paradise lost (fall from Vaikuntha), making the centerpiece of his mission the idea of BACK to Godhead. These ideas were part of his preaching TACTICS in the West.

However, what is good for the beginner (child) may not be so appropriate for the more mature devotee (adult). An adult will recognize the usefulness of these concepts as a preaching tactic but will also understand the actual siddhanta of our tradition, coming from Lord Caitanya and the six Goswamis.

[quote][cite] Pandu das:[/cite][quote][cite] Pankajadasa:[/cite]Hare Krishna,

Saw the video Misra prabhu, The devotee there says when he asked Prabhupada that Krishna says nobody ever falls from Goloka, Prabhupada says Krishna means Practically Never, (prabhupada says with wry smile).

Now being an Indian person, (okay maybe that doesnt make a difference), but for me its just Prabhupada being funny, and saying to his disicples that if you dunno follow then youll fall. BECAUSE..

Krishna is GOD not some person who will say Never and Mean maybe never. Prabhupada gave something difference, no he didnt, he gave something thats been given since 5000 Years ago.
[/quote]

Are there any clear instances of Srila Prabhupada using sarcasm to give instruction on a perplexing subject? I wouldnt just assume Srila Prabhupada is joking.[/quote]

Its perplexing?

I do not think that Prabhupada was joking or making some simplifications etc. for stupid disciples. He spoke from his personal realization and supported all three different answers according to the context. Yes concept of Back to Godhead and the word Godhead is also a Christian concept, but not in the same meaning. So is the word soul, completely different meaning behind the word in Christianity, Judaism, Sikhism (not only according to the religion, but also according to the context and realization of the speaker).

So origin of the soul, jiva and atma and jivatma are all different things as well if you wish.

The origin is again different to the constitutional position (word used by Prabhupada).

Just try to read everything in the context and do not project into the mind on the acharya please.

It also helps to understand limitations of the intelligence of a particular individual. Seriously helps.

I heard in the past, actually, many many years ago, from other Srila Prabhupada undercover denigrants that argument...."when you grow" "one day you will understand"
I take no checks at this point of my spiritual life. I take the cash of the direct statements of the pure devotee. That "preaching tactics" argument means ultimately that you seers of the truth are more mature. To this date, all those who proposed that twist continue to be as confused as ever or simply completely astray. But very happy to be the ones that truly understand the ins and outs of the preaching "strategy". Sad.
Kula pavana, seriously, what are you doing in a Srila Prabhupada oriented forum? Just spew your own misgivings and doubts? Its kind of fun for a while, but, please focus on what you really are. And you are not a Srila Prabhupada follower.

[quote][cite] mishra:[/cite]I heard in the past, actually, many many years ago, from other Srila Prabhupada undercover denigrants that argument...."when you grow" "one day you will understand"
I take no checks at this point of my spiritual life. I take the cash of the direct statements of the pure devotee. That "preaching tactics" argument means ultimately that you seers of the truth are more mature. To this date, all those who proposed that twist continue to be as confused as ever or simply completely astray. But very happy to be the ones that truly understand the ins and outs of the preaching "strategy". Sad.
Kula pavana, seriously, what are you doing in a Srila Prabhupada oriented forum? Just spew your own misgivings and doubts? Its kind of fun for a while, but, please focus on what you really are. And you are not a Srila Prabhupada follower.[/quote]

Shankracharya preached something higher? in that case.

[quote][cite] Pankajadasa:[/cite][quote][cite] Pandu das:[/cite][quote][cite] Pankajadasa:[/cite]Hare Krishna,

Saw the video Misra prabhu, The devotee there says when he asked Prabhupada that Krishna says nobody ever falls from Goloka, Prabhupada says Krishna means Practically Never, (prabhupada says with wry smile).

Now being an Indian person, (okay maybe that doesnt make a difference), but for me its just Prabhupada being funny, and saying to his disicples that if you dunno follow then youll fall. BECAUSE..

Krishna is GOD not some person who will say Never and Mean maybe never. Prabhupada gave something difference, no he didnt, he gave something thats been given since 5000 Years ago.
[/quote]

Are there any clear instances of Srila Prabhupada using sarcasm to give instruction on a perplexing subject? I wouldnt just assume Srila Prabhupada is joking.[/quote]

Its perplexing?[/quote]

I was going to say inconceivable, but that seemed maybe a little too restrictive. Maybe someone really understands it. I figure most just take the side that sounds good at first and say others who disagree are mistaken. Thats not the same as understanding. The only way the subject makes any sense to me is neither fall nor no-fall, but more like a dream. However, I dont presume this to be correct, more like a suitable model that helps me to think about something else, which apparently was what Srila Prabhupada wanted us to do. At the same time, I find it a very natural question and one thats hard to resist. Finding oneself in a difficult spot, who wouldnt wonder "How did I get here?" Sometimes the way out of a situation is the same as the way in, except in reverse. Also, its hard to imagine spending much time in spiritual pursuits without developing some kind of model for conceptualizing ones pre-material history.

[quote][cite] Pankajadasa:[/cite]
The fact that we whoever are confuced just goes to show, who is right and who is wrong, shouldnt we approach somebody higher in knowledge and devotion then ourselves to find the answer then?[/quote]

Its perplexing because arguments between persons higher in knowledge and devotion have been going on for a very long time and with no apparent resolution. I can go to one senior devotee one day and hear convincing arguments, and the next day go to another who refutes the first. If they cannot come to agreement, then it makes little sense to ask one of them. I would have to focus on the subject for a while and reach my own conclusion anyway, but I think Srila Prabhupada had said it wasnt a good use of time. So that leaves me without knowing and without a good way to find out, rather than believing something that may or may not be true.

If the only thing you can do is create doubt after doubt about the authenticity of Srila Prabhupada'b4s legacy, then, good bye and fare well my friend.

[quote][cite] Pandu das:[/cite][quote][cite] Pankajadasa:[/cite][quote][cite] Pandu das:[/cite][quote][cite] Pankajadasa:[/cite]Hare Krishna,

Saw the video Misra prabhu, The devotee there says when he asked Prabhupada that Krishna says nobody ever falls from Goloka, Prabhupada says Krishna means Practically Never, (prabhupada says with wry smile).

Now being an Indian person, (okay maybe that doesnt make a difference), but for me its just Prabhupada being funny, and saying to his disicples that if you dunno follow then youll fall. BECAUSE..

Krishna is GOD not some person who will say Never and Mean maybe never. Prabhupada gave something difference, no he didnt, he gave something thats been given since 5000 Years ago.
[/quote]

Are there any clear instances of Srila Prabhupada using sarcasm to give instruction on a perplexing subject? I wouldnt just assume Srila Prabhupada is joking.[/quote]

Its perplexing?[/quote]

I was going to say inconceivable, but that seemed maybe a little too restrictive. Maybe someone really understands it. I figure most just take the side that sounds good at first and say others who disagree are mistaken. Thats not the same as understanding. The only way the subject makes any sense to me is neither fall nor no-fall, but more like a dream. However, I dont presume this to be correct, more like a suitable model that helps me to think about something else, which apparently was what Srila Prabhupada wanted us to do. At the same time, I find it a very natural question and one thats hard to resist. Finding oneself in a difficult spot, who wouldnt wonder "How did I get here?" Sometimes the way out of a situation is the same as the way in, except in reverse. Also, its hard to imagine spending much time in spiritual pursuits without developing some kind of model for conceptualizing ones pre-material history.[/quote]

The fact that we whoever are confuced just goes to show, who is right and who is wrong, shouldnt we approach somebody higher in knowledge and devotion then ourselves to find the answer then?

[quote][cite] mishra:[/cite]
Kula pavana, seriously, what are you doing in a Srila Prabhupada oriented forum? Just spew your own misgivings and doubts? Its kind of fun for a while, but, please focus on what you really are. And you are not a Srila Prabhupada follower.[/quote]

Sure, you can only follow SP your way...

But I can take a hint... and since this is your forum, I respect your wishes.

Dandavat pranams and good bye...

[quote][cite] Kula-pavana:[/cite][quote][cite] mishra:[/cite]
Kula pavana, seriously, what are you doing in a Srila Prabhupada oriented forum? Just spew your own misgivings and doubts? Its kind of fun for a while, but, please focus on what you really are. And you are not a Srila Prabhupada follower.[/quote]

Sure, you can only follow SP your way...

But I can take a hint... and since this is your forum, I respect your wishes.

Dandavat pranams and good bye...[/quote]

Kula-pavana has been regular on Audarya forum for many many years, and is disicple of Srila Prabhupada for old days as I know (i talked many times with him, (i thought it was she before haha, the name confuces me), hope you stay prabhuji. But i doubt you will, never heard you say you would leave (even on audarya_)

Kula-pavana is not a disciple of Srila Prabhupada. He has said his initiating guru was someone else.

[quote][cite] Pankajadasa:[/cite][quote][cite] Kula-pavana:[/cite][quote][cite] mishra:[/cite]
Kula pavana, seriously, what are you doing in a Srila Prabhupada oriented forum? Just spew your own misgivings and doubts? Its kind of fun for a while, but, please focus on what you really are. And you are not a Srila Prabhupada follower.[/quote]

Sure, you can only follow SP your way...

But I can take a hint... and since this is your forum, I respect your wishes.

Dandavat pranams and good bye...[/quote]

Kula-pavana has been regular on Audarya forum for many many years, and is disicple of Srila Prabhupada for old days as I know (i talked many times with him, (i thought it was she before haha, the name confuces me), hope you stay prabhuji. But i doubt you will, never heard you say you would leave (even on audarya_)[/quote]

[quote][cite] mishra:[/cite]I take no checks at this point of my spiritual life. I take the cash of the direct statements of the pure devotee. [/quote]

Mishraji, the direct statements of Srila Prabhupada support both positions on this fall topic. Do you consider both positions as cash?

As for Kula-pavanas comments, he has not said anything that I have not heard from thoughtful and respected Prabhupada disciples, from both inside and outside of ISKCON.

As one of the admin people on this site, you have a particular responsibility to ensure that ad hominen attacks are not an inevitable part of any discussion. Otherwise if you yourself perpetuate it, what kind of discussion can we expect from this site?

I find it ridiculous that someone is forcing ones personal understanding of Srila Prabhupada on others! We should respect all the different understanding of what Prabhupada said and how he is understood by his followers - for the danger of becoming another Catholic church... with millions of schisms. But hey by that definition J-M is himself a schism! Maybe its worth writing an apology letter to Kulapavana?

I did not insult KP, just express my strong feelings at his carpet bombing the forum with his posts filled with doubts about the authority of Srila Prabhupada. Is he initiated by SP? So, what? More shame on him.
Just analize his posts on this site and others and you will conclude he has rejected Srila Prabhupada. And not like a gentleman, just plain, but still posing as a disciple for the perks that position still gives.
Who is forcing a particular opinion, me expressing my own personal feelings in a couple of posts or KP hammering again and again and everywhere that one particular issue: Srila Prabhupada is relative... huh?
He has said he is going but I doubt it very much. I know the move, invoking attention, but he is not going.
And the fact remains that here he has not been expelled, banned or censored in any way.

[quote][cite] Pandu das:[/cite]
Its perplexing because arguments between persons higher in knowledge and devotion have been going on for a very long time and with no apparent resolution. I can go to one senior devotee one day and hear convincing arguments, and the next day go to another who refutes the first. If they cannot come to agreement, then it makes little sense to ask one of them. I would have to focus on the subject for a while and reach my own conclusion anyway, but I think Srila Prabhupada had said it wasnt a good use of time. So that leaves me without knowing and without a good way to find out, rather than believing something that may or may not be true.[/quote]

I always try to learn from other devotees, but taking into consideration their and my relative stands.
In the present circunstances, a good dose of common sense and trying to understand what Srila Prabhupada is directly saying, that will do. That puts us on the right path. And at the end Krishna will reveal everything crystal clear if we are sincere.

[quote][cite] mishra:[/cite]I did not insult KP, just express my strong feelings at his carpet bombing the forum with his posts filled with doubts about the authority of Srila Prabhupada. Is he initiated by SP? So, what? More shame on him.
Just analize his posts on this site and others and you will conclude he has rejected Srila Prabhupada. And not like a gentleman, just plain, but still posing as a disciple for the perks that position still gives.[/quote]
I do not see your point, a disciple of Srila Prabhupada (initiated or not is not important) may have some doubts in the way other interpret Srila Prabhupadas teachings. Of course he is wrong to suggest that nobody outside of ISKCON suggests that jivas can fall from Vaikuntha, for one 7th canto of the Bhagavatam is an example of such discussion as quoted. BTW Misra, you are yourself not officially in ISKCON, others such as IRM and Haribols are not in ISKCON.

Just because one selects one way to interpret the relationship with Prabhupada as the guru and it is a different way to someone who is a bit more fanatical, does not make one rejecting Prabhupada. That does not make sense. Just as if one chooses the words from Prabhupadas purports quoted above that nobody falls from Vaikuntha, that does not mean that he rejects Prabhupada. It is Prabhupadas words after all!

ccd, sure there are different was to understand WHAT Srila Prabhupada said. We all understand according to our abilities. And I guess most devotees can live with this variety (diversity).

What I see as problem, is when one attempts to interpret WHY Srila Prabhupada said what he said. This is very tricky, because through this ones own conditioning is heavily imposed upon Srila Prabhupada, and instead of Srila Prabhupada we get something else imposed upon us (in the name of Srila Prabhupada said).

When we start interpreting WHY, it is almost as if Srila Prabhupada is dragged down to the level of interpreter. I can speak for myself, that this is very disturbing to me, and distasteful. It is just unnecessary. Discussing WHAT is very helpful, but discussing WHY is disturbing, and I can understand that one may easily feel threatened by it.

Is seems to me, that a good lesson from this discussion is, that we can discuss WHAT Srila Prabhupada said, but we better not poke our nose into WHY he said what he said. I mean, we can ask WHY, of course, but answer will be limited by our own limits, and most probably completely off - in any case it will always be below the truth, and so it will be disturbing, if not even harmful to some.

[quote][cite] Giri-nayaka das:[/cite]
Is seems to me, that a good lesson from this discussion is, that we can discuss WHAT Srila Prabhupada said, but we better not poke our nose into WHY he said what he said. I mean, we can ask WHY, of course, but answer will be limited by our own limits, and most probably completely off - in any case it will always be below the truth, and so it will be disturbing, if not even harmful to some.[/quote]

Sure that is my understanding too, as one should not try to understand the mind of the acharya. But if someone does it does not mean that he or she rejects Prabhupada, it is just another type of relationship.

In a way unless Prabhupada himself states why he does give a certain view, I prefer not to see words put into his mouth. He said many different things, all on the jiva turning away from Krishna issue. All are valid, and as I pointed out should be always taken in a context.

Thats why making a heated debate on it is a pure nonsense. It is rather subject for personal introspection.

[quote][cite] mishra:[/cite]I did not insult KP, just express my strong feelings at his carpet bombing the forum with his posts filled with doubts about the authority of Srila Prabhupada. Is he initiated by SP? So, what? More shame on him.
Just analize his posts on this site and others and you will conclude he has rejected Srila Prabhupada. And not like a gentleman, just plain, but still posing as a disciple for the perks that position still gives.[/quote]

Why dont you start another question about Kula-pavanas modus operandi? Perhaps it could be: Has Kula-pavana rejected Prabhupada?" Or, "Does Kula-pavanas posts indicate the mentality of an insincere disciple?" Then you and he and whoever else can discuss the point to your hearts content and those who dont want to hear about it dont have to. On the other hand, if you are absolutely convinced that Kula-pavana is bona-fide poser that is determined to destroy others faith in Prabhupada, then why not use your admin authority and ban his account? Otherwise, is this what we can expect forever on pariprashnena?

[quote][cite] ccd:[/cite]
In a way unless Prabhupada himself states why he does give a certain view, I prefer not to see words put into his mouth. He said many different things, all on the jiva turning away from Krishna issue. All are valid, and as I pointed out should be always taken in a context.[/quote]

Yes, speculating about Srila Prabhupadas motives is not good. Devotees try to extract some motives out of Srila Prabhupadas quotes, to support our own condition, but thus we artificially create contradictions, and then we must reject some other Prabhupadas quotes. It is dragging Srila Prabhupada down on our level. But all Srila Prabhupadas statements are valid. It is on us to accept them all, and pray that we may understand them and see them all as part of bigger picture. But sometimes we dont approach Srila Prabhupada in humble mood of "pariprashnena", but we rather try to use his words to strengthen our conditioned situation. Even "stalwarts of ISKCON" do that quite often.... It is unfortunate.

Sorry Mishra,

As mush as I appreciate your sentiments, for individuals to start quoting what Srila Prabhupada said to them in private conversations that cannot be substantiated in any way simply wont hold. Guru, Sadhu, Sastra. All statements made by the Guru must be consistent with previous Sadhus and shastra we all know that. Want to quote what Srila Prabhupada said? then quote his purports in his books, not private conversations that no one can verify.

In the absence of Srila Prabhpada his writings (the next best thing and why do you think he went to so much trouble to write these?) so no one could present different angles.

How can one attain the devine existence of Goloka Vrindaban where everyone is 100% Krishna concious then fall down, that is to say that somewhere in deepest perfection ... imperfection is to be found? Where Krishna states in many texts within chapter 8 ... that jiva will not return to the material world.

As you say yourself there are many quotes by Sri Krishna in the Bhagavad Gita that states once having attained my abode one never falls down into the material world again. These cannot be refuted by personal conversations, one has to accept Sila Prabhupadas books in the absence of Srila Prabhuadas physical form.

By presenting these angles it only serves to confuse and contradict Prabhupadas teachings. As far as Videos go these can be edited and taken out of context, yes books can be changed as well. But copies of Srila Prabhupadas orginal Gita translation are still around. The one he authorized.

And I disagree with Devotees that say it is not an important question, it is important as it alludes to the faith of many disciples and not having blatent contradictions in the teachings. To say all views are correct under certain circumstances? What circumstance where a jiva reaches Krishina Goloka does he fall? Lets be specific the jiva does not fall from this position. Even you ccd admit one does not fall from Vaikuntha, and Krishna Goloka Vrindaban is deeper and sweeter than Vaikuntha.

Chaitanya Mahaprabhu did not come offereing Moksa liberation in the Brahma Joyti (yes where one can awaken and again fall again into material world) he offered entrance into the deepest, sweetest personal pastimes of Radha and Krishna in full servitude and conciousness and to suggest one could fall from this realm cannot be supported by any Shastra reference.

The question is did we orginally come from Vaikuntha or Krishnas Goloka Vrindaban? No if we did as Shastra says we wouldnt fall from those places, but did we come from the spirtual sky the Brahma Joti? Yes.

[quote][cite] manasi_seva:[/cite]Sorry Mishra,

As mush as I appreciate your sentiments, for individuals to start quoting what Srila Prabhupada said to them in private conversations that cannot be substantiated in any way simply wont hold. Guru, Sadhu, Sastra. All statements made by the Guru must be consistent with previous Sadhus and shastra we all know that. Want to quote what Srila Prabhupada said? then quote his purports in his books, not private conversations that no one can verify.[/quote]

Are you saying that a personal instruction from Srila Prabhupada should be dismissed because it cant be proven to others? If someone who had Srila Prabhupadas association tells me that Srila Prabhupada told him something, I should assume he cannot be trusted?

> If someone who had Srila Prabhupadas association tells me that Srila Prabhupada told him something, I should assume he cannot be trusted?

Imho, yes - if it contradicts what we already know from SP and it cant be supported from other sources.

[quote][cite] VEDA:[/cite]> If someone who had Srila Prabhupadas association tells me that Srila Prabhupada told him something, I should assume he cannot be trusted?

Imho, yes - if it contradicts what we already know from SP and it cant be supported from other sources.[/quote]

There are so many imagined Prabhupada Said facts that it is better to be cautious at least!

Vrindaban
2 September, 1975
75-09-02
Los Angeles
My Dear Omkara dasi:
Please accept my blessings. I have seen your letter dated August 17, 1975 and have noted the contents. I never said there should be no more marriage. By all means legally you can get married. How can I object? They misunderstand me. Unless it is there from me in writing, there are so many things that "Prabhupada said.

so Srila Prubhupada said it is a dream state...................................................................................................................................................................................
...................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................
...................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................
...................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................
SO CAN ANY 1 FILL IN THE DOTS
read between the lines
:-)

the "thing" goes, in a topic as "this" it like when 1 thinks of this enough then we dont know where to go... like in some dream eh mate?

Please accept my kind regards,manasi seva.prabhu,actually i received personal confirmation from my guru that srila Prabhupada told him that once you return to the spiritual world .....if you are intent on returning to the material world krishna despite all good instruction and despite all good association you have your free will.And if you are indeed intent on misusing your free will...eventually krishna will sanction your return to the material sphere.
Your particular mood of devotional service seems very tidy,but not fully representative of the actual individuals vision which is also sanctioned by guru,sadhu sastra and the supreme will.When this is connected with krishnas desire to reciprocate with his bhakta and this particular ability to adjust things for his devotee things become sublime.This was confirmed by bhisma ,when asking the son of dhritarastra to seek peace with the pandavas,he offered to make some arrangement with krishna on his behalf....to allow him a world where he could rule apart from the sons of pandu.Almost in another dimension,however he refused this unique offer, choosing rather the ungodly path,his strong intent being to see his enemies in slavery or misery.

Sudama fell from Goloka Vrindavana after Radha cursed him and later regretted it.

But Krishna assured Her that this was good for he was shy to consummate a love affair with one of the sakhas there, and would return very soon.

So Sudama and his lover were born on earth to consummate their love.

Jaya and Vijaya (Vishnus door-keepers) fell from Vaikuntha after the sages cursed them.

When asked by Vishnu (who could have cancelled the curse) if they wanted hundred human births as devotees; or three as enemies, they wished the latter for a speedy return. So they were born Hiranyaksha and Hiranyakashipu; next as Ravana and Kumbhakarna and finally as Sisupala and Dantavaktra.

Jaya and Vijaya thus rendered service to the Supreme Lord by participating in His leelas.

Sudama was blessed by Krishna to enjoy sambhoga.

Yes, even devotees can fall from Vaikuntha or Goloka Vrindavana, but this is very temporary, and they will be recalled soon.

Other souls who fall do so for an unimaginable time.

Neither the Sudama nor the Jaya-Vijaya stories have anything to do with a falldown of an ordinary jiva - they are part of Krsna-leela, and have nothing to do with a living entity supposedly becoming envious of Krsna and thus sent to the material world. There is not a single example in the Vedic writings of a living entity falling from Vaikuntha out of envy for Lord Vishnu to become a worm in stool.

You have to be extremely desperate to use the Sudama or the Jaya-Vijaya stories to support your claim that living entities fall from Vaikuntha and not from the Viraja river in Brahmajyoti as is written in the Vedic literatures.

"How can one attain the devine existence of Goloka Vrindaban where everyone is 100% Krishna concious then fall down, that is to say that somewhere in deepest perfection ... imperfection is to be found? "

This is dumb argument imho. Ultimately no imperfection anywhere in Reality. Another meaning of Maya is affection,so so-called fall is also perfect and complete accordingly.

Jaya Sri Krsna,Reality the Beautiful!

Only one who can learn the process of nescience and that of transcendental knowledge side by side can transcend the influence of repeated birth and death and enjoy the full blessings of immortality. -Iso.

All Glories to Sri Sri Guru and Sri Gauranga! Hare Krsna, even if one has not read sastra its common sense that once you reach the spiritual world there is no chance of falling. Therefore, if there is no chance of falling we have not come from the spiritual world. If some argue that we have fallen, what is the point of practicing bhajan if we can fall again???

[youtube]nUiPTpijmf4[/youtube] [br] For those of you who want to separate love from the free will..

Jaya Srila Prabhupada Tattva-jnani extrodinaire!

The difference Subala is that u and I can only speculate about this Tattva.

Isnt it?

Ysvt.

Hare Krishna!

This reminds me that in some Puranas its stated, usually in the form of a phala sruti, that one can go to Vaikuntha temporarily by doing this or that spiritual activity.

subala_sakha: If some argue that we have fallen, what is the point of practicing bhajan if we can fall again???[/quote]

This is desire for liberation not pure devotional service.

Prabhupada smiled. '93Once,'94 he said, '93Krsna had a headache. He asked His servant, Narada Muni, to get dust from the feet of any of His devotees. He said that only such dust could cure Him.

'93Narada went everywhere, but no one cooperated. They all asked, '91How can we put the dust of our feet on Krsna'92s head? We will go to hell for such an offense!'92

'93Finally he went to Vrndavana where the gopis live. Since they are Krsna'92s most surrendered devotees, they all agreed to help.'94 Prabhupada dramatized the scene using his own hands, feet and facial expressions to show the gopis taking dust from their feet and offering it to Narada.

'93Narada asked, '91Do you not fear going to hell for such an offense?'92

'93So they replied, '91Never mind. We shall go to hell, but let Krsna be cured.'92

'93This is the kind of selfless devotion that Lord Caitanya has come to teach. This is love.

In the stage of pure devotional service, devotee doesnt think "What is the point of Bhajan if we can fall again?"

bhukti-mukti-siddhi-kami sakali asanta
krsna-bhakta niskama ataeva santa

bhukti-kami, the material persons who are desiring improvement in this world, in this life, and going to the heavenly planet next life... That is called bhukti. And mukti... Desiring liberation, that is called mukti, and... Or become one with the Supreme Brahman, that is mukti. And siddhi, yogis, they are trying to achieve some success in asta-siddhi, anima, laghima. So everyone is desiring. So therefore Krsna Caitanya Mahaprabhu says, krsna-bhakta niskama: "A devotee of Krsna is not desirous of anything, either bhukti, mukti, or siddhi." The purport is, so long you desire something, youll never get peace of mind. And a bhakta does not desire anything. He is satisfied with any position, whatever is offered to him by Krsna.

your servant
dweller-in-peace

Related story is from the life of Sri Ramanujacarya who publicly announced the secret Narayana mantra for everyones benefit, while himself ready to go to naraka for transgressing the will of his guru who told him that he should keep it secret.