Pariprashnena — Q&A Archive

My first guru, Ramesvara, came up next to me at the first Ratha Yatra in Los Angeles I ever went to and started dancing ecstatically next to me. All of a sudden I looked down to see what he was doing and something happened to MY legs, I started dancing exactly like him! My arms werent though just my legs. It was definitely some kind of shakti coming from him to me I felt. I cant dance. To this day I still dont like to dance in the temple. A devotee took some pictures of me that day and two or three of them made it into the Vyasa puja book.
So I felt connected with Krishna through my guru but how? Did I ever see Lord Krishna face to face? Did Krishna speak to me when I saw Him in His Deity form? I honestly cant say I became a pure devotee because of my first guru, and that is not any ones fault but my own. Even though I have much more faith in my second guru, I still dont see Krishna personally standing on the altar. But I believe my guru does.

BG 2:5

It would be better to live in this world by begging than to live at the cost of the lives of great souls who are my teachers. Even though desiring worldly gain, they are superiors. If they are killed, everything we enjoy will be tainted with blood.

PURPORT

According to scriptural codes, a teacher who engages in an abominable action and has lost his sense of discrimination is fit to be abandoned. Bhishma and Drona were obliged to take the side of Duryodhana because of his financial assistance, although they should not have accepted such a position simply on financial considerations. Under the circumstances, they have lost the respectability of teachers. But Arjuna thinks that nevertheless they remain his superiors, and therefore to enjoy material profits after killing them would mean to enjoy spoils tainted with blood

Normally this does not happen. But then even if with a visible faults guru if still a Vaisnava is still a guru. There is no limit on how many gurus one need.

avidyo va savidyo va
gurur eva janardanah
margastho vapy amargastho
guru eva sada gatih

Whether ignorant or learned, the guru is Janardana. Whether situated on the
path or not, he is ever the goal.

From Aditya-purana as quoted by Sanatana Gosvami in Hari-bhakti-vilasa 4.359.

that is an interesting quote for the disciples of the original zonal gurus (and the fallen gurus themselves).
Now, what is the context in what was spoken? Cause you know, you can make anything valid taking out of place.

hmm, i dont know ccd.
what about the good old zonal acarya days then?

[quote][cite] abhiram:[/cite]what if he falls down and you take initiation from another?
that means he wasnt you guru? but you were pretty sure before right?[/quote]

Do you mean that an imposter can become a spiritual master?

According to Srila Narahari Sarkars book Sri Krishna Bhajanamrita there are conditions under which the spiritual master should be rejected. I discuss these verses in my book "On Leadership", available here: http://www.atmayogi.com/files/On%20Leadership.pdf

Related topic,
Is it possible to reject your spiritual master? :
http://www.pariprashnena.com/discussion/28/is-it-possible-to-reject-your-own-spiritual-master/#Item_12

...not sure,He may still be your Guru,but if He is maya He most likley should be avoided,thats probably not too hard to do because He is probably selling real-estate in Florida or something.Theres no need to take re-initiation,we have many devotees in Canada who had Vipramukhya Swami and Jagadisha Maharaj as their Gurus,and their doing just fine.

I had a similar experience like Adikavi,I was a bhakta in Edmonton Canada in 1982,having been living in the temple for 3 months I was still having a lot of trouble chanting 16 rounds,Satsvarupa Maharaja was visiting in early january,he had many disicples there at the time for our post-christmas marathon festival,I had a very strong need to meet with Him personaly and discuss KC,I had arrainged an appointment to see Him via His servant,I was to meet Him at 11:00 am.That morning I was doing my best to chant my rounds in front of the little altar in the basement,I had lost track of time when I heard a voice in my heart " just chant ",I looked at my watch,and it was EXACTLY 11 OCLOCK ! I ended up chanting 64 ROUNDS THAT DAY...32 ROUNDS THE NEXT DAY...and the rest my freinds is history.

BG 2:5

TRANSLATION

It would be better to live in this world by begging than to live at the cost of the lives of great souls who are my teachers. Even though desiring worldly gain, they are superiors. If they are killed, everything we enjoy will be tainted with blood.

PURPORT

According to scriptural codes, a teacher who engages in an abominable action and has lost his sense of discrimination is fit to be abandoned. Bhishma and Drona were obliged to take the side of Duryodhana because of his financial assistance, although they should not have accepted such a position simply on financial considerations. Under the circumstances, they have lost the respectability of teachers. But Arjuna thinks that nevertheless they remain his superiors, and therefore to enjoy material profits after killing them would mean to enjoy spoils tainted with blood.

<<< >>>

..what say ye Janmastami,my story was so ecstatic you found it painfull ?

However, if the spiritual master:
Acts enviously towards isvarebrantah, that which is connected with the Supreme
is bewildered regarding the Supreme Personality of Godhead
is averse to expanding the fame of Lord Krishna
personally refuses to accept hearing or chanting about the glorious pastimes of Lord Krishna
has become totally bewildered, listening to the false praise of ignorant persons and day by day is more materially contaminated and fallen
-then the spiritual master must be renounced.

Sri Krishna Bhajanamrita 64

It is said often that initiation is just a ceremony to promise to the Lord to be serious about spiritual life.

Most important is to be able to keep the vows,follow the instructions of the Founder Acarya.....which is very difficult for most.

Some devotees took initiation from Jaythirtha,then Bhagavan....and so on....but still cant chant well and are living like karmis!

Many thousands took initiation even from the founder Acarya...and are also in trouble!

Maya also is preaching 24/7!!!

First of all guru is always guru.
Then a teacher of material arts such as Drona and Bhishma is discussed in the quote above:
"According to scriptural codes, a teacher who engages in an abominable action and has lost his sense of discrimination is fit to be abandoned. Bhishma and Drona were obliged to take the side of Duryodhana.."
However if you consider the story of Asvatthama, you will see the respect to Drona and his wife (also mother as a gurus wife).

I think the greatest mistakes were made, due to extreme maximalism of the times, in regard of first 11 gurus/zonal acaryas. Majority of them are still vaisnavas thus Krishna Bhajanamrita 64 does not apply to them at all.

Prabhupada did not tell for example to Mahavishnu Goswami to take re-initiation, his guru was not even Gaudia vaisnava, but from a bona fide line.

Sanatana and Gopala Bhatta put this quote in the list of all other instructions about guru in HBV, the code for our line. Its not just vaisnava tantra or traditional writing like Krishna Bhajanamrita, its smriti.

ys

CCd

[quote][cite] Servant Krsna:[/cite]Do you mean that an imposter can become a spiritual master?[/quote]

Nobody answered my question....

Q: Do you mean that an imposter can become a spiritual master?
Answer: No
Q: Can an imposter can become a vaisnava?
Answer: No
Q: Can an imposter can become a disciple?
Answer: Yes

If your spiritual master is bona fide, you, even if an imposter can become his disciple, then by magic, just like bell metal can become gold, you can be a vaisnava. Vaisnava can be spiritual master of the whole world, however unless one is extremely advanced or is a preacher one should not take too many disciples or one may fall down.

of course asvatthama respected dhrona, he was both his father and his spiritual
master, and as a result, asvatthama was able to kill the sleeping sons of the
pandavas in his attempt to perpetrate genocide on the pandava clan. KRSNA
had come to teach such miscreants lessons for all time. harvest time!

avatthama is a special case. he is not quite human. his body was two part of demigods and two parts lust and greed, personified. he was not initiated into bona fide sampradaya anyway, what is the point again?

asvatthama was your example, seemed strange to us, hence the response.
not sure just what your point was.

Due to respect to his guru and his wife and despite direct instuction of the Lord to kill asvathama, arjuna did not. Even if his guru/ie Drona/ was not up to standard still arjuna did not reject him even if being on the other side of the battle. that is a material martial arts teacher, what to speak of a spiritual master. I have never heard of any acharya giving up thier guru in our line. sorry.

you probably never "heard of any acarya in our line" giving or getting head like can easily be documented these days. oh, thats right, pointing out those kind of activities is "faultfinding". doing them is OK, if you feign remorse to a few homeys afterwards, but commenting on it, that is faultfinding. or is it that the bhaktas arent strong enough in their faith yet to hear that their potential "guru you aspire to most"
has been using the regulative principles as a "suggestion", and that only for their public image? and in light of that folly, what then?

Is it a different question?

please try to stick to the question, refrain from elaborate on all kinds of (even related) topics. Thankyou.

Maybe I shouldnt say but my first guru fell down and now is associating with devotees again here and there but I dont know anyone who is still waiting for him to come back except for maybe one person.

My wifes guru fell down after 40 years and made an announcement that you could either follow him or reject him. I left it alone and her mother and she seem to be following him still. Krishna rectifies His devotees mistakes and purifies them so as long as he is trying I dont see anything wrong with what he is doing. Instead of hoping he will leave the movement I hope he will become strong and better than he was before.

But as I told my former godbrother if my first "guru" comes back and starts telling me what to do that is the last thing I want to hear from him. I dont consider him my guru. I was told he was when I joined after reading the Bhagavad-Gita, Srila Prabhupadas book, because I joined in his zone. Since the devotees telling me this were ISKCON followers I just went along with it at the time.

Im only saying this because, Janmastami Dasa, we cant always understand the relationship between Krishna and His devotees. I personally wouldnt give a person I had doubts about any money, or "laxmi", but I would try to give them a chance to rectify themselves because I am constantly in need of rectification myself.

Here is somehow pertinent verse from CC 3.9.141 (Sri Caitanya to Gopinatha Pattanayaka): Whether you are involved in material activities or become completely renounced, you five brothers are all My eternal servants, birth after birth.

This whole chapter is very interesting regarding Lords dealing with a devotee whom we can relate to quite easily.

Regarding the comment about H.H. Maha Vishnu Goswami, he was initiated by Jayatirtha, then by Shivarama Maharaj as well he took sannyasa from him. Nowadays he is a initiating guru.

The case was with H.H. Krishna Dasa Swami also from England, he is disciple of another guru, and sannyasa he took from a picture of Srila Prabhupada. He is a sannyasi and Iskcon guru.

Ys

Krishna Kripa Dasa

[quote][cite] adikavi:[/cite]Maybe I shouldnt say but my first guru fell down and now is associating with devotees again here and there but I dont know anyone who is still waiting for him to come back except for maybe one person.

My wifes guru fell down after 40 years and made an announcement that you could either follow him or reject him.

.[/quote]

[quote].[/quote]
There seems to be a confusion on if guru was involved in a most outrageous material activity, say being a sannyasi spent a night with a woman. Should he be rejected? Or similar thing.
[quote].[/quote]
Answer is no. Would you reject a sadhu if he is fallen just because of it?
[quote].[/quote]
However if one is against vaisnavas and does not accept Krsna as the Supreme Lord. Then this is an acceptable grounds in some cases. There is NO evidence from sastra for any other reason.
[quote].[/quote]

[quote][cite] Krishna Kripa Prabhu:[/cite]Regarding the comment about H.H. Maha Vishnu Goswami, he was initiated by Jayatirtha, then by Shivarama Maharaj as well he took sannyasa from him. Nowadays he is a initiating guru.[/quote]
Both initiations were not required to be a guru or taking sannyasa in ISKCON. SP never told him to take re-initiation. However he is a very humble soul and he had to do it. Nor did Bhaktivinoda Thakura ever took re-initiation just because his diksa guru was smoking and was a married man.

In my situation I needed to get second initiation anyway, since I only had gotten first initiation from my first guru. And in the temple I was in there was always talk of reinitiation so I got first and second initiation from my guru at the same time. And I was in a hurry to get reinitiated because my guru was getting old and left his body just three years after I got initiated from him, although most devotees didnt see it coming. I did though.

i would like to comment about a devotee only when i become a devotee, i would like to talk about a disciple of any guru only i myself become a sinciere disciple of a guru, i would like to talk about a guru only when i become a guru myself."kaler dosha nitaei rajan asti eko maha gune"..this kali youga is full of faults, either it may be a guru or disciple or any one..it is better to look at the good of others .

if any person has in the past or in the present or in the future influence us very much towards the process of bakti,he/she is defenitely a special person in our life,regardless of whatever he/she is now.lets observe the good examples of Sri Dronacarya and Sri Bhismadeva.

Ram: if so, why you are preaching to us to give up our quest? Please follow your own philosophy and do not comment on us. Thankyou. By the way, THAT is impersonalism disguised as humbleness.

...my guru,Gopal Krishna Maharaja is NOT my guru,and he hasnt even fallen down yet.

[quote][cite] Tulsiananda das:[/cite]...my guru,Gopal Krishna Maharaja is NOT my guru,and he hasnt even fallen down yet.[/quote]

You mean you are not his disciple..

...I mean I was initiated by GKG,but he is not my Guru.

He rejected you or you rejected him? In both cases I can see why you cannot understand those two points.

Abhiram prabhu, forget all this political nonsense and just surrender to Srila Prabhupada. If you simply do that sincerely, He will certainly guide you from within. Its about sincerity. Not formality.servant,Priya

PARIPRASHNENA IS A WASTE OF TIME

Adikavi, many devotees have had "spiritual experiences", both before joining, and after. It is nothing strange, and something we just should be happy for, since it gives us a taste to go on. Maybe we should not interpret them too much, like saying that your first guru must have been a pure devotee, since he gave you the experience. If you have faith in guru as being the representative of Krishna, Krishna can act through guru, by giving him inspiration. That can be seen like the guru have kind of mystic power, when it actually is Krishna who act through the guru. To be a representative of Krishna means just that, to let Krishna act through the guru. If a guru falls down, it means that he breaks the contract, and stops to let Krishna act through him.
He just gets fired as a representative.

Ram said:
"he/she is defenitely a special person in our life,regardless of whatever he/she is now.lets observe the good examples of Sri Dronacarya and Sri Bhismadeva."

are you saying the example shown by bhisma and dhrona, the sitting on their hands while the women and children were abused, is "the proper course of action" alll should follow? isnt that what put them on the wrong side in a showdown fight with KRSNA?