Pariprashnena — Q&A Archive

I think that the person who wrote that article is/was a ritvik.

Are the changes mentioned at this site not real?.

I am not looking at affiliation here, just look at the changes, and please Prabhus and Matajis comment, it is a big one for me at least. Thank you.

Please read http://jswami.info/writings/about_editing and attachment. I vouch for the changed books as they are a return to SPs manuscripts which I personally worked with.

[quote][cite] mishra:[/cite]Are the changes mentioned at this site not real?.

I am not looking at affiliation here, just look at the changes, and please Prabhus and Matajis comment, it is a big one for me at least. Thank you.[/quote]
he may be using the article to fulfill his agenda.

Original...The body itself is unimportant. Arjuna was advised to fight and to sacrifice the material body for the cause of religion.
Revised...The body itself is unimportant. Arjuna was advised to fight and not sacrifice the cause of religion for material, bodily considerations.
****************
It is said that the soul is invisible, inconceivable, immutable and unchangeable. Knowing this, you should not grieve for the body.
It is said that the soul is invisible, inconceivable and immutable. Knowing this, you should not grieve for the body.
***************
O descendant of Bharata, he who dwells in the body is eternal and can never be slain. Therefore you need not grieve for any creature.
O descendant of Bharata, he who dwells in the body can never be slain. Therefore you need not grieve for any living being.
***************
If someone gives up self-gratificatory pursuits and works in Krsna consciousness and then falls down on account of not completing his work, what loss is there on his part?
If someone gives up his occupational duties and works in Krsna consciousness and then falls down on account of not completing his work, what loss is there on his part?
*****************
...Discharging ones specific duty in any field of action in accordance with varnasrama-dharma serves to elevate one to a higher status of life.
...Discharging ones specific duty in any field of action in accordance with the orders of higher authorities serves to elevate one to a higher status of life.

on and on.

I am not on any faction, just that the changes really startle me. I use the original edition just to be in the safe side.

"are book changes OK?"

depends. if the editing is to bring the meaning closer to Srila Prabhupadas intention then absolutely its wanted.

if not then .... no way.

how do you know how to "bring the meaning closer to Srila Prabhupadas intention" besides obvious sintax flaws?

Explained in the resources above. It can be done for those books whose manuscripts survived. See also

http://www.veda.harekrsna.cz/encyclopedia/spbooks.htm

I think this is what happened on some occasions:

Devotees didnt understand prabhupadas accent when they heard the tapes and just wrote what they understood. Then it got published and we treat it now as as the absolute truth coming from Krsna himself.

Some years later JAS comes to fix the obvious error after going through the originals and we want to burn him because of changing "prabhupadas sacred words".

..NO THEY ARE NOT !

How about an example of an error in Prabhupadas books that Prabhupada pointed out and wanted fixed, but is now stubbornly reprinted by demand of some "reformers." The following is a conversation with Srila Prabhupada on July 4th, 1975, in Chicago:

Tamal Krsna:
"krsi-gorakshya-vanijyam
vaishya-karma svabhava-jam
paricaryatmakam karma
shudrasyapi svabhava jam
[Bg 18.44]
"Farming, cattle raising and business are the qualities..."
Prabhupada: They are not cattle raising, that was...
Tamal Krsna: Cow protection.
Prabhupada: Cow protection. It has to be corrected. It is go-rakshya, go. They take it cattle-raising. I think Hayagriva has translated like this.

These so-called "Back to Prabhupada" people, they dont listen to Prabhupada even when he says to correct something, They know Prabhupadas intentions better than Prabhupada. That is the problem.

By the way, the revised edition is corrected, and reads like this:

"Farming, cow protection and business are the natural work for the vaishyas, and for the shudras there is labor and service to others."

Srila Prabhupada expressed full confidence in his editor Jayadvaita Swami. As before mentioned, you can scrutinize the revisions elsewhere on the Web. Due to mistakes in early editions, revisions were necessary. The question is, do we want to cling to the earliest edition, full of mistakes, or do we want to read the edition that most closely presents the authors intentions?

~ Pancha Tattva dasa
ISKCON Saint Louis

One glaring example how Hayagriva couldnt accept the Vedic universe with one sun. See the >>restored<< part:

BG 15.12p.

1972: From this verse we can understand that the sun is illuminating the whole solar system. There are different universes and solar systems, and there are different suns, moons and planets also. Sunlight is due to the spiritual effulgence in the spiritual sky of the Supreme Lord.

1983: From this verse we can understand that the sun is illuminating the whole solar system. There are different universes and solar systems, and there are different suns, moons and planets also, >>but in each universe there is only one sun. As stated in Bhagavad-g'e9t'e4 (10.21), the moon is one of the stars (nak'f1atr'e4'eb'e4m aha'e0 'e7a'e7'e9).<< Sunlight is due to the spiritual effulgence in the spiritual sky of the Supreme Lord.

so the changes are good then.

yeah - this is a continual misconception - that the books floating around in the 70s were Srila Prabhupadas true words and the later editions were adulterated by those with devious intentions to steer people away from the truth.

The so-called originals were edited by the late Hayagriva who had a fair number of issues with some aspects of our philosophy.

Also please keep in mind that this is the same Hayagriva who preferred the association of his gay lover Keith Ham over Srila Prabhupada when they left ISKCON after Kieth (Kirtananadana) directly disobeyed Srila Prabhupadas instruction to go to London as a new sannyasi.

Instead Kieth decided to return to New York against Srila Prabhupadas direction, declared himself in charge and started trying to change the dress and practices of the devotees. Srila Prabhupada then excommunicated Kieth. Then Howard (Hayagriva) left with him. (Although this may have been due to the way that the devotees followed Srila Prabhupadas instruction to excommunicate Kieth - spitting on him and all.)

It was this same Hayagriva who edited the original books that are riddled with alterations and (as VEDA pointed out) sometimes distinctly different conceptions than Srila Prabhupada intended us to have.

The book changes arent sinister deviations. The side of the story I tell here is what Jayadvaita Swami is perhaps too classy to speak out about.

I guess the only way to really know is to study Srila Prabhupadas books both versions side by side. And still who really knows what Hayagriva did change on his own?

if author has passed away then any changes made should be signed by a new author and his/her name put under the title.
if i wrote a book I certainly wouldnt want anybody changing it after I passed away.
It is okay to write on the same subject but dont put your words in my mouth.

some comments that were heading to a personal confrontation were deleted. Please put generic questions to help better understand issues. Allusions to spiritual masters either over glorifying or denigrating are to be deleted.

Book changes do worry me and many others I am sure, even if there was good intention on jswami part to do the changes to increase sales or something like that I think everyone feels that given what a grave apraddha it is to change scripture the book changes are NOT OK. Especially the wholesale changes that have gone on and might be going on or are planned for the future.
Surely you cannot be pleasing Srila Prabhupada by changing the books that he so painstakenly gave us, and when you consider on such a large scale of change and with so many new errors. I for one hesitate to buy new editions or to distribute them.

My point here is that its a misconception to think that the version of Bhagavad-gita that was printed by the BBT in the 70s was Srila Prabhupadas unadulterated words. That version was also edited by a fallible entity who had some experience with the English language so Srila Prabhupada gave him that responsibility.

The revised edition was also edited by a fallible person so take your pick. Personally I read the revised edition because it seems to me that the changes seem to bring the meaning closer to the original manuscripts.

Read this if you are interested in the history:

http://www.jswami.info/editing/hayagriva

and this for side-by-side analysis:

http://www.jswami.info/Gita_Revisions_Explained

then make your choice which version you want to accept as the absolute truth

Srila Prabhupada advised that we focus on the purports though so I also recommend that.

Kes, did you read any of the above sources? If yes, why you cannot understand the explanation of Hayagrivas unauthorized changes of what Prabhupada said and JASs restoration of the same?

With respect Veda, whatever you say will not make me change my mind that the book changes are good. I think a lot of devotees are concerned that the changes could be messing around with scared works and even if the original translators were not up to the mark it did not matter because Srila Prabhupada was there to keep things in order and I am sure if the BG needed the many changes that have been made, Srila Prabhupada would have given them to us.
Secondly changing Srila Prabhupada writings so much seems offensive, I am sure you would you would not like for instance the ADMIN of this site "correcting " your postings without your permission!

I see your prejudice but its just that - against facts. Prabhupada pointed out many problems in the books. Attached is his famous rascal editors speech, blasting unauthorized changes, and my compilation of what he said about editing. This answers your theoretical and undeserved(!) comparison of our Admin to Hayagriva. Hope this sets things straight.

You may call it prejudice but I call it common sense, I am sure if you could ask all the devotees they would agree that it would be better not to make changes to the books and run the risk of great big offences. Like they say &quot;If it aint broke dont try &amp; fix it&quot;

However the point is: it was broken so its been fixed. This I call a common sense.

"the point is, It was broken...." wherein the "It" to which we refer is The Macmillan Gita. is that the correct understanding of the position of the admin of this website?

[quote][cite] VEDA:[/cite]However the point is: it was broken so its been fixed. This I call a common sense.[/quote]

Please explain what "it" is.

Yes. It refers here specifically to the first full BG edition (1972) and other first editions for which the fix was possible (i.e. available tapes or manuscripts).

I read JAS explanations. In a nutshell, he says Hayagriva and others did a terrible job from the original transcriptions, and he fixed it.
Now, were are the original transcriptions for everybody to peruse. Are they available to the public?
Not that I doubt in principle, but you know, better to go to the end of the issue, not simply "believe".

Here is what I dont understand - Srila Prabhupada read daily from the Collier-Macmillan Bhagavad-gita As It is, right? When did Prabhupada point out the "mistakes" that he desired to be "fixed"? Srila Prabhupada was very verbal about not approving of the very first little BgAII that was very edited down and pushed on to get the full volume published. So.....would he have remained silent if he saw many "mistakes" in the larger volume?

Also, Srila Prabhupadas signature is placed in the "fixed" books. Were these changes made prior to 1977 and Prabhupada approved them?

Mishra: Tapes and OTs (original transcripts) are kept by the BBT. They are not available to public but if they were they could prevent all this debate about books, imho. Ive been working with BG OTs. But as I said in the spbooks.htm link above most of them didnt survive.

Hari Bhakta: He pointed out the mistakes during his lectures and his personal reading, to his secretaries and other leading devotees. See examples in above attached files.

My view is that he was concerned about translating and publishing as many books as possible during his prakata lila and thus fixing already printed books was of secondary importance, given the lack of qualified BBT devotees (BBT is still looking for qualified devotees, btw) busy with producing new books in a fast pace.

Most of these fixes were made after 1977 but some before and Prabhupada knew what this fixing means and had a full confidence in JAS (see letter to Radhavallabha, Sept 7, 1976). Responsible Publishing has more info.

If its okay with an admin I would like to ask a sub-question.
KC is very simple with or without changes. There were both versions available all the time for those interested and with defferent views.
My question is this:
How all this situation with changing books and arguing which one is correct or not is pleasing to Sri Sri Radha Krishna and acaryas in Brahma-Madhva-Gaudiya sampradaya?

sveILnista: If you are satisfied with whatever is available or is given to you, it is your choice, but there are many devotees that want to know the truth and facts about Srila Prabhupadas books versions and that is perfectly legitimate.

So, seems that the debate is created (and not resolved) by the same thing: Non disclosure policy of the BBT.

We wonder why BBT does not find qualified editors.
Maybe intelligent men are not attracted to certain policies like the one herein.

Here is a very interesting Srila Prabhupada conversation and a comment at the end by a devotee :

Atreya Rsi: Hussain Prabhu says that his goal in life is to translate
your Bhagavad-gita.
Prabhupada: Oh, very good.
Atreya Rsi: Yes, hes a very, very sincere boy.
Prabhupada: So do it immediately. Somebody, some Arabian student made
some translation?
Atreya Rsi: Yes, there was some translations of Isopanisad.
Prabhupada: Where he is, that boy?
Atreya Rsi: Into Arabic. Hes in Europe. He is a Palestinian boy.
Hussain is asking how should this translation be done, what is your
recommendation, if you have any suggestion.
Prabhupada: Of course, I am not well versed in your language, but you
simply, if you understand that English and translate it into Parsi,
that will do. As it is, you translate. Dont make any change. Then it
will be all right. And when there is difficulty, you can ask Atreya
Rsi. Harikesa.

So in this conversation Srila Prabhupada is telling this person to go ahead and translate his Bhagavad Gita into (Parsi) Arabic language simply using his already existing English translation published by the Macmillan Co. This is the same book that we distributed in the millions all over the world. But he warned him--"dont make any changes and then it will be alright."
It is clear , that this BG that was published by Macmillan Co, and daily read by Srila Prabhupada,
was to be printed in as many languages as possible-but all without change!
This is NOT what we have today with Jaya Advaita, and Dravidas version.

Macmillan edition was the full Gita at that time. Today everyone can choose between Hayagrivas and JASs edited versions.
No changes are answered above.

All glories to Srila Prabhupada!

"The vice'95chancellor of retore Benares Hindu University, a very famous man of his time, named Madan Mohan Molaviya, came to the Gaudiya Math and had some intricate, philosophical questions to present to Sarasvati Thakura. Sarasvati Thaura said, "I wont answer you, but you should ask the devotees who are washing the arati paraphernalia." The scholar then said, "No. I am asking very difficult questions on Vedanta: They wont beable to answer!" However, Sarasvati Thakura insisted that he go and ask those pujaris, who were cleaning the Deity paraphernalia at that particular time; so, being submissive to the will of Sarasvati Thaura, he went to ask them. When he approached them, they said, "Well, now were busy washing these plates, but please help us, and when weve finished then your question will be solved." Even though he was such a famous, respectable man, he agreed to join in and help do this humble service. After all the brass was cleaned, he returned to Sarasvati Thakura without saying anything more to the pujaris. Sarasvati Thakura then asked him, "Did you get the answer to your questions?" Madan Mohan Molaviya replied, "Yes, even without discussion. When I was helping clean the arati paraphernalia the answers automatically came in my mind." Sarasvati Thakura then replied, "Yes. The philosophy of Krsna consciousness can be understood by a service attitude, not by any amount of intellectualism. `sevonmukhe hi jihvado... Just by reading books and reciting slokas - that wont help you. Serving God will give us all the answers to the questions in the sastras. My guru, Gaura Kisora Das Babaji, was not literate, not a pandit, but all the slokas and siddhantas came to his mouth, because he was sevonmukha '95 inclined to serve Krsna." krishnascience.com

"The philosophy of Krsna consciousness can be understood by a service attitude, not by any amount of intellectualism."

Sri Caitanya Caritamrta Adi-lila Chapter 12 Verse 10

"The order of the spiritual master is the active principle in spiritual life. Anyone who disobeys the order of the spiritual master immediately becomes useless."

CC Adi CH1 TEXT 35 "There is NO DIFFERENCE between the spiritual masters instructions and the spiritual master himself"

Service to Srila Prabhupada means to follow His orders--"DO NOT CHANGE ONE WORD". It is only by His service that we can understand everything. By simply following and promoting His Instructions along with His Unchanged Words, we can facilitate others having the same blessing. That is real life. Those who disagree and mislead others have not done it. Those who have done it, experience the wonderful result and request the simple devotees to have faith in serving the instructions of Srila Prabhupada and reading/hearing His unchanged books.

This question is wrongly formulated.The question should be:Would Srila Prabhupada want his books changed?

The answer is: Of course NO!!!

And there is ample evidence that he would be furious about it too.

He would for sure want his books as close to their original form. That the purpose of re-editions.

Oh, again. Already the first par of Govinda dasis letter shows she doesnt know about the nature of errors (calling them typos). My favorite example of Hayagriva-style changes is BG 15.12, where he got rid of only one sun in each universe and the quoted verse BG 10.21 about moon being one of the stars. He didnt like these Vedic cosmographic concepts so they had to go. And Govinda dasi implies that it was under the personal direction of Srila Prabhupada. Go figure.

Who wants to know the changes let them go thru them. Well, few actually do it. Its easier to pick a political stance from proclamations by opinion makers, like the proverbial sheeple. But everyone can pick a version one wants to read.

it is question of etiquette Veda.Prabhupad didnt want them changed.Period.Who cares what you or Jay Israel think,they are not your books!

Editing means changes. Changes are explained in above sources and at http://bbtedit.com/quotes (authorization by SP)

Another gullible sucker buys the whole editing rationale and just doesnt seem to understand that Prabhupada said NO MORE CHANGES and did so because he knew that even if there were some misspelled words or whatever -- unless he made it clear (AND HE DID) that he wanted absolutely NO MORE CHANGES (he made it clear while he was present so what to speak of after he left) -- because he knows our disease of wanting to change everything and sure enough -- armed with their justification that there were a few mistakes found -- Jayadvaita was off to the races and went crazy with his red pen. Shame on him. Shame on Dravida and this Veda person --- what is it about NO MORE CHANGES that you are having a hard time understanding? I can explain the words to you one at a time. No means No. More means More and Changes means Changes. Does that help? Youve denigrated Govinda Dasi, Hayagriva, Rupanuga, and so many hundreds, if not thousands, of ISKCON pioneers and great souls. I hope youre satisfied with yourself now. Youre on thin ice my friend. Be careful. Maybe you should stay away from topics that you dont understand.

When and in which context SP said "no more changes"?

Spend some time at this website: http://bookchanges.com/

Read through it thoroughly. Oh yeah -- and do yourself a favor and dont swallow that line about Srila Prabhupada writing in a letter that he trusts Jayadvaita. He trusted all of us -- right up until the minute we strayed from his instructions, behaved in a disobedient way, and proved ourselves untrustworthy. He trusted Radhaballabha and Rameswara one day and the next day they were "those rascal editors." In the material world we conditioned souls have four defects. The material energy is endlessly mutable. Thats why an intelligent disciple will perceive the relative in the absolute and the absolute in the relative and realize that never was Srila Prabhupada contradicting himself in spite of the fact that it seemed sometimes that it were so. The point is that Prabhupadas endorsement of Jayadvaita in that letter did not give him an eternal carte blanche to go crazy editing Srilal Prabhupadas books decades after Prabhupadas departure. Of all the different controversies and hot-button issues that seem to be endlessly debated on the Internet (Guru tattva, Jivas feel from where, when, how and why, does ritvik then mean ritvik now and ritvik forever) --- this situation with the changing of Srila Prabhupadas writings is by far the most serious issue facing any siksa or diksa, direct or grand disciple of His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada. It behooves every single one of us to take a stand after educating ourselves on the subject with an open heart and mind. After all is said and done .... believe me brothers and sisters -- I would not want to be the person bringing Srila Prabhupada the news of what has happened to his books. Have you ever been in the room when Srila Prabhupada was displeased? Its not something one forgets easily ... and I can think of nothing more displeasing to His Divine Grace than the desecration of his books.

Last but not least --- in his unnecessary changing of the wording in so many Bhgavad-gita verses, Jayadvaita has taken out the magical mystical poetry -- that was originally there by the arrangement of the Supreme Lord. Verses that once flowed poetically and were like celestial music have been rendered prosaic, one-dimensional and flat. Just thinking about it makes me want to cry and scream at the same time. .....

The context for this quote is simple: unnecessary changes were being made.

Prabhupuc0u257 da: So you'85 What you are going'85 It is very serious situation. You write one letter that '93Why you have made so many changes?'94 And whom to write? Who will care? All rascals are there. Write to Satsvaru363 pa that '93This is the position. They are doing anything and everything at their whim.'94 [b]The next printing should be again to the original way.[/b]

Portnoy and mung, Ive already repeatedly stated my position on this issue but I have to react.

Bookchanges.com is site by a person who doesnt stop from misinterpreting to support his agenda. On this video hes shown to misinterpret the statement of an U.S. leading book distributor: http://bbtedit.com/node/276

> to go crazy editing Srilal Prabhupadas books decades after Prabhupadas departure.

I dont know how much experience you have with serving in the BBT. Im an editor since 1994 and in 1997 I worked with BG manuscripts scan copies in NE-BBT. These scans are being posted at bbtedit.com, now first 7 chapters. (I was always in favor of publishing them.)
I didnt detect any crazy editing by JAS, only a return to manuscripts from which Hayagrivas version departed.
Thus no one can tell me that white is black and think Ill blindly believe.

Using rascal editors conversation http://bbtedit.com/node/25
against JAS is 108% counteproductive since it actually supports him and blasts Hayagriva and others:

Prabhup'e4da: To find out some job to fill up the belly. Otherwise hell starve if he doesnt get any job. And hes finding out guru. Job-guru. Now do the needful. Otherwise everything will be spoiled. These rascal editorial... That Easy Journey, original, this (indistinct) Hayagr'e9va has changed so many things.
Tam'e4la K'e5'f1'eba: He actually took out the whole part about their going to the moon being childish. He deleted the whole section.

(The same he did in BG 15.12p. as I showed above. Reason? He never fully accepted the Vedic paradigm.)

Seems some of you only read out of context quotes from this conversation provided by Madhudvisa. Theres a rule saying if a heretic quotes scripture the truth is usually found nearby. This is the case here.

Prabhup'e4da: So you... What you are going... It is very serious situation. You write one letter that "Why you have made so many changes?" And whom to write? Who will care? All rascals are there. Write to Satsvar'fcpa that "This is the position. They are doing anything and everything at their whim." The next printing should be again to the original way.
Tam'e4la K'e5'f1'eba: They should have a board of Satsvar'fcpa and Jay'e4dvaita.
Prabhup'e4da: Hm.

What is original way which SP wanted if the 1st printing is criticized by him...?
Answer: A return to SPs dictations/manuscripts whenever available. Thats what BBT did in 80s and what some criticize out of ignorance and/or prejudice (after learning the truth).

> Last but not least --- in his unnecessary changing of the wording in so many Bhgavad-gita verses, Jayadvaita has taken out the magical mystical poetry -- that was originally there by the arrangement of the Supreme Lord. Verses that once flowed poetically and were like celestial music have been rendered prosaic, one-dimensional and flat. Just thinking about it makes me want to cry and scream at the same time. .....

Can you provide some sample verses? SP and Hayagriva were originally using the English edition of BG by advaitist dr. Sarvepalli Radhakrishnan in which verses (not commentaries) were basically ok as per SP. If you consider him magical mystical poet guided by Supreme Lord, its your choice. But definitely not mine.

This inspired Prabhup'e4da and obliged him to produce more. He worked quickly, sometimes day and night, on his Bhagavad-g'e9t'e4 As It Is. He had founded ISKCON five months ago, yet in his classes he was still reading the Bhagavad-g'e9t'e4 translation of Dr. Radhakrishnan. But when Bhagavad-g'e9t'e4 As It Is would at last be published, he told his disciples, it would be of major importance for the K'e5'f1'eba consciousness movement. At last there would be a bona fide edition of the G'e9t'e4. (SPL 2.21)

In the general topic of authors, the author may release a 2nd, 3rd edition etc of their works with changes, additions and spelling corrections that is the authors right to do so, but another person cannot make changes to a book and release it in the original authors name that amounts to fraud. In the Gaudia Vaisnava world one would think it even more important that the original authors words are never changed. The last pillar left standing in Srila Prabhupadas temple and by far the most important being his books, teachings and writings, one would think this is sacred ground, but even here they are not following Srila Prabhupadas orders. They should not be making any changes period.

If a disciple feels that a subject requires more explanation or needs to be explained using terms and phrases more easily understood in todays modern version of the English language then the disciple should publish their own writings leaving his gurus writings intact so that others may compare. That is the meaning of Guru, Sadhu & Shastra. The current day Gurus writings and teachings can be compared to the previous Sadhus and Shastra. This has always been the tradition in the Gaudia Vaisnava disciplic succession.

Veda -- I just dont have the energy to sit here and go verse by verse to show you how Jayadvaita turned the light out on what were once beautifully flowing (Hayagriva was a poet, a genius, a professor of English) .... but thats not really the main point -- is it? Let me just reiterate what my dear godsister Govinda Dasi has already said about this issue. Either you get it or you dont. Apparently you just DONT GET IT. I can understand how it is that people who werent around in the early days and understood Srila Prabhupadas mood about his books -- or sat inches from his Vyas Asana while he lectured from and read from and heard from his own books day after day after day after morning after evening after class after class after class after class ..... and went into ecstasy hearing the words of the published books and how angry he became and blew up in fury when changes were made from the already published books without his direct order or request --- why you wouldnt get it. You think you have experience. Look -- I hide behind the name Portnoy for personal reasons -- but I typeset almost the entire KRSNA, The SP of G, Nectar of Devotion, Unabridged Gita, much of the Bhagavatam, Sri Isopanisad ....... from 69 to 71 -- sometimes working fifteen or sixteen hours a day in Boston as the tapes were coming. These were days before computers and we used a stand-alone IBM typesetting machine with different fonts for italics, bold, diacritic marks and had to type a rough draft and final draft using settings to flush (justify) the right margins. It was a tedious process but Id sit there in the middle of the night in a freezing little cubby hole closet of a room in the back of the Boston temple defrosting my fingers with a space heater and among other manuscripts arriving typing out the pastimes of the Supreme Personality of Godhead --- stories none of us ever heard or for that matter realizing that I was among the very first western humans to ever have the opportunity to get to know such details about the Supreme Personality of Godhead -- Lord Sri Krishna. Every word in those books are sacred and were brought before Srila Prabhupada before going to press. I knew Jayadvaita. We worked closely together back then. We were brahmacarys together. Hes a good man. He did wrong. Thats it and thats all. Thank goodness the lawsuit was won by those who were dedicated to seeing the original publications remain available and in publication. Otherwise it would all be lost at this point in time. The ISKCON GBC has gone so far off the track that I dont think it can ever find its way back. This is a sorry affair. Everything happens for a reason though and I am hopeful because I know that Lord Caitanyas movement is unstoppable and Srila Prabhupada launched it worldwide in eleven years of nonstop preaching and publishing starting at the age of 69. Incredible. Unbelievable. Transcendental. Beyond belief. All glories to His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada.

Veda -- did you go to that website that I suggested? Did you? Did you really go spend some time and read what Rupanuga, Govinda Dasi, et al are saying ...... go there and spend an hour or two ... with a wide open mind suspending your already made up mind just for the hell of it? I dont think you did. Did you? Instead of writing "Ive already stated my position" --- what position do you "already" have that you are stating? Why are you being so stubborn? Is that all its about -- that you have made up your mind already and all you can write here on this forum is that you have already stated your position? What does that even mean? Because you have already stated it ---- it gives it more credence. You can state it a billion times and its still WRONG. So stop stating and start reading and understanding what is apparently beyond the scope of your present understanding. Its for your own good I say this. You are a follower of Srila Prabhupada? Then you owe it to him to look further and deeper into this issue. Do it. Just do it!!!! Dont come back here until you do it. PLEASE!!!!!!!!! Otherwise you are not just in a state of misunderstanding -- you are dangerously trying to drag others down with you into that state of misunderstanding. This is hurting Srila Prabhupada -- doing him harm. How could any disciple or grand disciple stand by and let that happen?

Portnoy, its nice you did so much service with transcribing in early years. Thats for your eternal benefit.
Youre emotionally attached to 1st editions like so many of your Godbrothers. Thats natural. But emotions arent fit for discussion.
Otoh, Im not attached to any specific edition, Im interested only in what SP really said, and what I saw myself in the form of manuscripts in my hands. No misunderstanding but reality. Hard facts, published as pdf by Madhudvisa last year.

The versions history:

- original authors words in the form of dictations and manuscripts (if survived)
- 1st editions (problematic from many points of view)
- 2nd editions (fixing problems in 1st eds as per originals; if someone considers some edits unnecessary, its his choice)

Now to your points:

Re Madhudvisa I already said why I have no trust in him and thus, by implication, in whatever appears on his highly emotionally charged site without a thorough crosscheck. He persists in his agenda even after being proven wrong and misinterpreting others. What more can be said?

> I just dont have the energy to sit here and go verse by verse to show you how Jayadvaita turned the light out on what were once beautifully flowing

I did ask for a few examples only. Personally, I couldnt sacrifice philosophy for the sake of poetry.

> (Hayagriva was a poet, a genius, a professor of English)

Yet he followed Radhakrishnans version. http://www.veda.harekrsna.cz/library/Comparing_four_Gitas.zip

> the lawsuit was won by those who were dedicated to seeing the original publications remain available and in publication.

It was not won by Hamsaduta. There was an out-of-court agreement. And yes, everyone can choose his preferred version.
The next step will be textcritical editions, sooner or later. (I suggested this some years ago in the BBT employee survey, just like publishing the manuscripts.)

> Every word in those books are sacred and were brought before Srila Prabhupada before going to press.

He had trust in his disciples and didnt check every word again. http://bbtedit.com/node/59
Thus when the books were printed, he lectured from them, occasionally pointing out errors.