Pariprashnena — Q&A Archive

See this article by Jayadvaita Swami:
http://www.jswami.info/rape

I was faster than you VEDA. haha

Thats just because I let you. ;)

he didnt say it is rape directly.he said
and such aggression is sometimes considered rape
he said sometimes .some women like to be tortured during sex.like spanking,biting,biting.this is also done by the rapist.
so the word sometimes is very significant

I honestly dont think one should take it as a generic statement about women, just "a woman". IMHO

About 10 years ago I was told by my initiating Guru to not dwell on it. Back then, I took his instruction. But lately, Ive been considering the meaning of both purports of 4.25.41 and 4.25.42. I respect and have great fondness for Jayadvaita Swami, but I dont find his answer to the question very satisfying.

Actually, I find 4.25.42 to be more even more disturbing to my mind. Im having trouble understanding this statement: "When a husbandless woman is attacked by an aggressive man, she takes his action to be mercy." Also, being the father of a daughter, I cant imagine marrying her off before puberty as recommended in the purport (both from SB 4.25.42).

Thank you. Hare Krishna!

Formerly girls were married before puberty, but did not have sex before puberty. They would serve the husband but still live with their parents. Prabhupada married his wife when she was 13, he was 19-20? not sure

With the state of Kali yuga, I dont know if any boys are so qualified. But it is a nice concept that a girl has her husband fixed in her mind, she doesnt need to go husband shopping. It is quite different from the current state of affairs. The girls at age 16 are quite interested in men, and they just act very friendly towards them. This is considered normal nowadays, that is their nature. Many girls at age 13-14 secretly do have sex, their parents dont know about it. Even devotee girls. I know a story of one devotee girl who was 13-14 and would sneak out of her window at night to get taken advantage of by some horny older man. So marrying them off early is nice if there is a qualified boy.

Nowadays the girls families (in india at least) wait out until they find a boy with enough money, in the meantime the girl keeps getting older and when she is 26-27 they start to get desperate. Prabhupada said the boy should be healthy and not lazy and of course of good character.

Actually we really need more qualified astrologers for marriage matching (my opinion). There are some good ones, but some of the good ones charge a lot of money, and the others are just very busy. I have waited weeks for a proper astrology report from a qualifed devotee brahmana astrologer.

even if some women may find such pleasureable(its a crazy world out there!),
the little children in the gurukulas didnt. the punishment administered to those abusers was what exactly? the "were VERY tolerant!" excuse is supposed to only apply to the victims, not those of us sitting on our dufts watching the devotee children be raped, abused, beaten, and made to sit up like dogs for maha treats.
shame...shame...shame!!!

The point of the statements about women is that they should be protected, not to condone assaults to them.

If woman are protected then their higher nature as mothers can take proper place. Nowadays that higher nature as mothers is not stressed to young women, so they have different foolish ideas about the perfection of their lives.

[quote][cite] amalagaura:[/cite]The point of the statements about women is that they should be protected, not to condone assaults to them. .[/quote]

I understand that, but why/how are husbandless women to take attacks as mercy? From a devotes perspective, I understand mercy can come in many ways. But in reference to the 4.25.42 purport, are these attacks of sexual nature as is sometimes considered rape (as referenced in the previous purport)?

How many husbandless women are interested in proposals from a guy who would shyly offer them flowers while hiding themselves? It is basic nature that women would prefer a man to be confident and aggressive. Not physically assaulting/aggressive but aggressive enough to do something. They are more willing to accommodate that then to accommodate weak overtures. Otherwise why are so many attractive and capable women in abusive relationships. They are attracted to strong men who unfortunately cannot control themselves and take out their aggression on the women.

So we can ask the women in the abusive relationships if they considered the first sexual advances of their mate to be mercy. I think they would agree that they physical relations were consensual and there was no force in it. Of course many such women have been abused as children too and it is a cycle.

My friend told me he talked to a karmi girl at a temple and she told him she was raped and she hadnt told anyone because she somewhat enjoyed it. He told me when we were discussing this statement of Shrila Prabhupada. I suppose that man was quite expert at his rape, some of the not so expert males go to jail, and the even less expert males cant get dates.

There are forums and clubs for men to get together to find out ways to sleep with women. They become expert in pickup lines, making conversation so the women become attracted, NLP, and generally any other pyschological trick they can think of. And they claim a lot of success. So they are doing the same thing, becoming expert at "raping" women. They are "raping" them because they are not going to take care of the women and the women are fooled by their culture to think it is ok. It is completely consensual and a result of assuming women are able to make such decisions properly for themselves.

I am going to dangerously generalize here:
women are irresistible attracted to "leader of the pack" men in the same way that man get attracted mainly by looks. Same attraction, different reasons.
That is the reason why we see women in abusive relationships, they are attracted by leadership, even though they do not like abusive treatment.
But the same for man, they are irresistible attracted to looks even if the character of the women is less than adorable.
And all this, following the ancestral jungle call to perpetuate and ameliorate the species, man looking for healthy female, women looking for leader qualitites. What can we do...

Are you defining rape as consensual agreement? I know a few a women who were sexually attacked when they were teenagers and I assure it wasnt consensual and they are suffering in so many ways.

I believe you have a miss understood of the real meaning of strength and confidence with your analogy of "attractive capable women" staying in abusive relationships.

Im sad to say your reply is very typical of what Ive heard from male devotees on the topic. Its been my experience that most have some/no experience being in a good relationship with a women.

I suppose you and I can go on about this, but since you have such strong imprints on your mind of what women really like in a male, I would rather not waste our time. Please feel free to respond, but I was really interested in what women have to say, and if they could offer any insight into how they accept these purports.

Also, I wouldnt really wouldnt consider online forums that boast of success with pick up lines as a very reliable source of information.

Thanks. Your servant. Hare Krishna!

[quote][cite] mishra:[/cite]Iwomen are irresistible attracted to "leader of the pack" men [/quote] Then I have no clue why my wife married me and has stayed with me for the past 35 years. :)

Well the definition of rape as consensual agreement is debated daily courts of law when some people go to trial for it. So I do not think you will get an easy answer to that one. The guy will say it was consensual, and the woman will say it was not, and then there is a trial about it.

In the Islamic countries it is easy right. Just hang the woman. (actually happens)

Generally that is the definition of rape, non-consensual sex. The word rape that prabhupada is using is a point of contention, did he mean "non-consensual sex"?

I did broaden the definition to include cheaters and the cheated relationships that most of Kali yugers are involved in.

Hari Bhakta das: I do not know you, so I cant say :).
I am talking in general, the principle. Sometimes women choose for reasons not so clear, even can choose just for monetary reasons or the best of the worse they find. But the general principle is there and can help us understand better human conditioning. Rape or not rape is many times a grey area. I remember reading a book from a real case that a young girl was "raped" by a classmate in a car in a secluded place. But the case was not so clear without consent.
There were a number of circumstances like mini skirt, girl somehow agreeing to go in the car with the boy to a secluded place and the "rape" wasnt with violence like knife or gun etc. You get the picture. Of course, the girl could say she somehow agreed in front of society, parents, etc
It is unavoidable and a fact that women like to be "raped" in the sense of hero taking her by force. not for physical damage That is a fantasy that comes from nature, they look for the best male to perpetuate the race.
Many marriage problems come from the male ignorance about female psychology. They could be easily satisfied and thus society would be peaceful.

Talk about politically incorrect, look at Samba, son of Krishna:

S'e4mba wanted Duryodhana'92s daughter, Lak'f1ma'eb'e4, although she was not inclined to have him. Therefore S'e4mba kidnapped Lak'f1ma'eb'e4 by force from the svaya'e0vara assembly.
Because S'e4mba took Lak'f1ma'eb'e4 away from the assembly by force, all the members of the Kuru dynasty, such as Dh'e5tar'e4'f1'f6ra, Bh'e9'f1ma, Vidura and Arjuna, thought it an insult to their family tradition that the boy, S'e4mba, could possibly have kidnapped their daughter. All of them knew that Lak'f1ma'eb'e4 was not at all inclined to select him as her husband and that she was not given the chance to select her own husband; instead she was forcibly taken away by this boy. Therefore, they decided that he must be punished. They unanimously declared that he was most impudent and had degraded the Kurus'92 family tradition. Therefore, all of them, under the counsel of the elder members of the Kuru family, decided to arrest the boy but not kill him.

One really needs a GBC resolution on it. They will have a convincing argument!