Pariprashnena — Q&A Archive

Wasnt that already discussed? In short: frustration, offenses and resulting mayayapahrta jnana.

maybe some are not offensive (meaning to Srila Prabhupada) and are doing well in the scope of their spiritual life... why not?
For sure THIS is one of the reasons they might be gone to not return, our condemning party spirit
I had the opportunity in AU to ask a few of them personally (AU is big time NM conversion desha).
The response in general is because they got mistreated by our leaders. I have a few horror stories about this.
So, who to blame? It s always easier to put all blame on the departed devotees. Your skin is safe.

Well, to claim that Prabhupada instituted an apasiddhanta and ISKCON should thus become an apasampradaya seems pretty much offensive to me.

I didnt elaborate on the causes, neither am I condemning. I just stick to facts. Some causes may be genuine as you mention but apasiddhanta is not a solution. It can only make things worse.

To blame (in various degrees): false ego, immaturity, ignorance, mistreatment, etc.

There are two prominent ways an Iskcon initiate can become labeled " ritvik ".The first way is very common in Iskcon,this happens when someone is a "whistle blower "
or complains about the GBC or local temple administrators,he or she is then painted with the " Iskcon poop-brush " and thus becomes " ritvik " over night.This
is what happened to Rocana das of Sampradaya Sun recently,Rabindra Svarupa has to paint Rocana " ritvik " in an effort to stop devotees from reading his site.

Iskcons so called leaders have taken the sanskrit word " ritvik " and turned it into a word meaning " meant to be ostracized ", very offensive indeed.

The second method is when a bell goes off in the devotees mind and he thinks " hey wait a minute,real gurus dont fall down and bloop ",or they have a moment
of enlightenment and realize that Sri Krishna is responsible for the continuance of the parampara,not by a dozen and a half Prabhupada disciples in maya.

dont agree with tusiananda das:

you dont become known as a ritvik by blowing whistles or criticizing the powers that be; you become known as a ritvik by claiming that you dont need a living guru but can take initiation from srila prabhupada without him being present on the planet anymore.

this is pure nonsense, as anybody whos read one of SPs major books (and understood them) can tell you.

of course its best to take initiation from a maha-bhagavata or uttama-adhikari whos almost impossible to fall down. but thats not the criteria for guruship given by SP (he knew his disciples and has seen some of them fall down in his lifetime).

the criteria for being a guru is that you follow strictly your gurus instructions and act as transparent medium for them. if, at some point in time the guru stops following, then he cant be accepted as a guru anymore and one has to look for shelter elsewhere. obviously thats not the very best situation, but that we are here, in these circumstances, is due to our own karma. otherwise we might have been born as associates of caitanya mahaprabhu or krsna himself. bums who we are, we chose to stick around in the material world a bit longer and now we have to live with the circumstances we find and make the best of it.

trying to change sastra by proclaiming that a living guru isnt necessary because we are fried with some of them isnt the way out of this situation.

[quote]maybe some are not offensive (meaning to Srila Prabhupada) and are doing well in the scope of their spiritual life... why not?[/quote]
[p]thats perfectly fine with me. if somebody doesnt feel confident with any of the present gurus but follows SPsinstructions, im pretty sure he can become a great devotee, make lots of advancement, perhaps up to going back to godhead. it may say that you cant go back without a guru, but whos going to stop SP from accepting you right in front of the [i]pearly gates[/i] (or better: yamarajas place)?[/p]
[p]just dont claim that you are a [i]direct disciple of SP[/i] without having seen him, or having been accepted by him.[/p]

but what surprises me is that after understanding SP books, giving lectures and everything they can adopt such a strange philosophy.

and as far as i know things are not all roses in the ritvik camp and they are also fragmenting into different types of ritviks.

strange.

..the question put forth is : " How do ISKCON devotees become ritviks? "

one deffinition I found for the word " ritvik " is as follows : Everyone is agreed that the definition of ritvik is priest. Priests do not initiate, they officiate over various types of ceremony. This is explained by H. H. Hrdayananda Goswami and H. H. Suhotra Maharaja in the appendixes of DD. This is also confirmed by Dr. V.S. Aptes Practical Sanskrit Dictionary, which was quoted by Srila Prabhupada in the Adi-lila of Caitanya Caritamrta. There it states that the word means a "priest who officiates at a sacrifice".

..so the question actually is " How do ISKCON devotees become a priest who officiates at a sacrifice ".

Phani Prabhu says " you become known as a ritvik by claiming that you dont need a living guru but can take initiation from srila prabhupada without him being present on the planet anymore "....Obviously we are dealing with apples and oranges.If the world is lucky a 100 years from now millions of people may consider Prabhupada their spiritual master,whats wrong with that?

The real question is " who is a living Guru , and how did he become one "

As I have previously mentioned , Iskcons GBC uses the word " ritvik " to slam and discredit anyone who questions their legitimacy in the practice of making their freinds into " Gurus ".

[quote][cite] Tulsiananda das:[/cite]...so the question actually is " How do ISKCON devotees become a priest who officiates at a sacrifice ".[/quote]
well, you know what i mean by ritvik. not the old sanskrit meaning but one who formerly accepted a guru and then changed his mind and his understanding of the philosophy because of being fried by ____ (fill in the blanks)

Guys, today you become known as a ritvik if someone wants a loyal ISKCON audience to boo you, ala "Hes a commie!"

Witness His Grace Ravindra Svarupa prabhus article "Centralization Critics Off base" (available at http://namahatta.org/nh2/en/node/4693)

There he said:

"'93Our Whole Movement Could Be Killed,'94 warned Vyapaka Prabhu, in the title of a posting on the ritvik web site Sampradaya Sun."

Im not getting in to the whole philosophical angle - personally I think whatever your philosophy is, get out there and prove it and well see whos still around in 100 years, or even 10.

What Im all about is being precise with your use of language (Kaunteyas critique of On Leadership standing - Im writing a second edition to address the points he has raised).

Ritvik has become a bit of a catch-all for dissidents, disaffected, and disenfranchised.

How do ISKCON members become these? Well, its usually a bit on both sides, but if youve read "The Final Order" you can clearly see that the central thrust and main impetus behind its argument are the excesses and shortcomings of zonal acaryas in the 80s, and of other ISKCON authorities into the 90s. People need a coherent story to explain these things, and some people, for various reasons, needed an alternative flag to rally around, which TFO provided.

I find it so strange that we can accept a system were a guru can fall down & we think we have a perfect system?
When so many gurus have fallen down thats what makes people think ritvik system could be right, because if the ritvik falls it is not such a big deal as a guru who you have surrendered your life to, falls down .

For me, the problem lies on rubber stamping the gurus, which is something like arranged marriage. It only will fail. and the responsibility naturally falls on the GBC for doing so. Not that they vote who is guru and then guru falls and GBC doesnt have anything to do. Not logical to say the least.

Another good point( or should i say bad point) by mishra about rubber stamping gurus. So from the mistake of the zonal guru system are the gbc just willing to continue making mistakes.

> I find it so strange that we can accept a system were a guru can fall down & we think we have a perfect system?

There cant be a 100% assurance that a specific guru will not fall. Gurus are not wooden dolls. Every jiva always has a free will to act against Krishnas will and if one is not on the stage of prema it can happen. At the same time this system is given by the Lord and in that sense it is perfect.

I agree that the parampara system given to us by the lord makes perfect sense, but the system we have in place at present does not seem very perfect. The gurus track record speaks for itself.

I cannot say it more clearly than above. Last try: Even if 100% of gurus fell down, youre not solving it by instituting apasiddhanta. When that happens (as Kali yuga progresses) the sampradaya ceases to exist in open and will be renewed in future (yada yada hi dharmasya).

the system is perfect, but it has to work with imperfect people (devotees), and thats not really a surprise. why would narahari thakur [name?] specify the procedures for rejecting a guru if he didnt expect that to happen? during caitanya mahaprabhus lifetime and shortly after, these were very rare occasions, but the acaryas knew that kali-yuga was progressing, and that human failure, even among vaisnava devotees, would become more frequent.

that isnt very nice, to be sure, but most things in kali-yuga arent; and things are going to get a lot worse. we can hope and pray for our present gurus to maintain their vows and service and help them by not committing offenses they also have to suffer for. and we can hope and pray for srila prabhupada or a vaisnava of his calibre to take care of us again.

but sometimes im not sure if we wouldnt criticize such a maha-bhagavata as well, for some perceived slight on his part. perhaps we just arent qualified for the association of devotees like srila prabhupada?

in any case, the perfect system provides procedures to deal with issues like a guru falling down. instead of inventing a new system, im afraid well have to stick with the perfect one, if we like it or not.

there isnt anything, really, to stop _any_ of us from becoming a perfect devotee and guru ourselves, you know? SP said it could be done within one life-time. the only thing stopping us is our own mind, our lack of intelligence, and our desire for so many things apart from bhakti.

still my feelings are that we need to improve the system that we have and the ritvik system makes good sense to a lot devotees.

it "may make a lot of sense" to a lot of devotees, for different reasons, but thats not what is important. the important thing is what made sense to srila prabhupada and the vaisnava acaryas before him, and that was not the ritvik-system.

a ritvik is a priest officiating for another person - but that person has to be living, present here in his body.

otherwise i might decide to take initiation from lord brahma, putting me much above srila prabhupada and even lord caitanya in the sampradaya, and decide that from now on we worhip radha as the supreme. she, after all, is the one who rules krsna by her love, so actually shes in charge.

if presented properly, this might make a lot of sense to a lot of people, too ...

Some other reason related to the question...

Sometimes I perceive that some devotees attain a "srila prabhupada disciple" status by supposedly taking SP as sm throug a ritvik priest (happens with initiation with a SP godbrother too).

This probably comes from the perceived "elite" domination in the 70, 80 and 90s, and perhaps still alive nowadays.

that wont work very well in straight temples, trying to get respect as SP disciple by accepting ritvik-initiation; rather the opposite.

and in ritvik-temples everybodys supposed to take initiation from SP, so that wont help to become one of the elite, either.

"perceived elite domination," i can understand that in case of SP disciples who arent really qualified for what they are doing, or not following, etc. but there is an injuction, saying that you should offer your gurus godbrothers respect equal to him.

"respect" doesnt necessarily translate into obedience when the person doesnt know what hes doing, of course. but there is a distinction between SP disciples and grand-disciples.

while they were helping SP starting ISKCON and learning from him to be vaisnavas, i was running around in berlin, getting drunk, and talking and doing a lot of nonsense. now whos fault is that?

I am just curious. How do ritviks actually take initiation? I heard they use a recording of prabhupadas voice. Is this correct?
Can i just take an ipod and initiate myself or anyone i want then?

im speculating here; the only thing i really remember is that - at least some of them, there are different camps among the ritviks, too - place their japa-malas in front of SPs deity overnight.

the term ritvik suggests that a person must be performing the ceremony on behalf of SP, so an ipod alone probably wont do. (did you look in apple-macs help pages? perhaps theres a program you can download ...)

for Ipod, yes, its called ritvik.dmg. Just double click and when the initiation, I mean installation is complete, you are done! :)

...message for Abhiram Prabhu : " well, you know what i mean by ritvik " sorry Prabhu, actually I dont,nobody does.

" Can i just take an ipod and initiate myself or anyone i want then? " cant initiate yourself,I know thats not allowed.But if you are a Temple President
you can recommend.

Seems to me that if someone is a ritvik because of their understanding of a letter written in 1977 naming 11 devotees who are to be ritvik gurus then they should be trying to take initiation from the few devotees who are still left from that list before it is too late.

Yes, these are the only ones who could claim any written appointment (even though apasiddhantic in case of post-tirobhava). Every other ritvik initiator is an impostor from the beginning.

After the disappearance of BSST his disciples straightly rejected the ritvik idea mentioned by someone at that time. Those who cant do the same show their level of understanding of sastra and tradition. These are the Vedic criteria, not what makes a lot of sense.

From the karmic point of view its better to be a vikarmi than an aparadhi. (Purport: This doesnt suggest to become a vikarmi, its just a comparison of the two.)

imho, it is equally ludicrous that someone says that the parampara ended with Srila Prabhupada and that an administrative body GBC appoints absolute guru. Both the two sides of the same coin. Education and information are the only means to ensure the right guru choice, but well always have in the material world people that want the easy and desire to be cheated.

..." someone says that the parampara ended with Srila Prabhupada " no one is saying that,I have never seen or heard anyone say that,everyone one knows the
parampara is eternal.How the parampara will continue will be revealed in time.It is not something to be concocted by a handfull of Prabhupada discples.

OK, ... saying that there is no one that can initiate but ritvik representative... and the rest the same :)

Prabhupada clearly defined the role of "ritvik" in His letter of July 9TH. Abhiram prabhu,
Srila Prabhupada is your Guru. Wether you choose to accept Him as such is entirely your choice. However, this is the fact of the matter put quite simply. When, as you say,"my first guru" fell down. No. He was acting on behalf of Srila Prabhupada. Therefore, you are most certainly Srila Prabhupadas disciple as long as you follow His instructions. Everything is there. In Prabhupadas books, everything is there. You simply accept. Thats all. Prabhupada is your Guru Maharaja. your servant, Priya

PARIPRASHNENA IS A WASTE OF TIME

Haribol! Im new to this site and am impressed with the variety of interesting subjects that you are discussing. Recently Ive been involved in a forum with several senior devotees, including GBCs, gurus and ex-gurus discussing the rtvik issue. The fact is that when Srila Prabhupada was asked how initiations would be conducted in the future, particularly after his disappearance, he said that he would appoint officiating acarayas.

At the same time, he definately wanted his disciples to "actually become guru", but cautioned that it should be "on my order." Srila Prabhupada is still with us, and is capable of ordering a qualified disciple to "actually become guru." However, vaisnava etiquette would suggest that anyone accepting disciples should do it outside ISKCON, which is Srila Prabhupadas ashram. Within ISKCON, Srila Prabhupada is the ultimate authority, or should be, anyway. Having two seperate lines of authority, ISKCON and guru, doesnt make sense. Prabhupada wanted all ISKCON officers to swear an Oath of Allegiance, too. I can provide the text of the Oath if anyone is interested.

Is anyone familiar with the legal document, "Direction of Management" (DOM)? It is the ISKCON Constitution written by Srila Prabhupada, and has been amazingly neglected/rejected. If DOM were followed, there wouldnt be such confusion about simply following Srila Prabhupadas instructions.

The living guru is one who lives according to the Nectar of instruction:

NoI 1: A sober person who can tolerate the urge to speak, the minds demands, the actions of anger and the urges of the tongue, belly and genitals is qualified to make disciples all over the world.

NoI 2: Ones devotional service is spoiled when he becomes too entangled in the following six activities:

(1) eating more than necessary or collecting more funds than required;
(2) overendeavoring for mundane things that are very difficult to obtain;
(3) talking unnecessarily about mundane subject matters;
(4) Practicing the scriptural rules and regulations only for the sake of following them and not for the sake of spiritual advancement, or rejecting the rules and regulations of the scriptures and working independently or whimsically;
(5) associating with worldly-minded persons who are not interested in Kruc0u803 su803 nu803 a consciousness; and
(6) being greedy for mundane achievements.

So,if any guru have sexual urges,he should be off the list,but some fallen gurus still claim to give instructions to their disciples,and are still welcome in Iskcon.
There are also rumours of gurus having secret bank accounts in Switzerland.....or private properties.Iskcon should have a transparent policy regarding all finance,so as to dispel doubts.
A pure soul can be an annonymous devotee,far away from limelight,and instructing the pure teachings of Lord krishna to others.Initiations are just ceremonies,that cheating people use to get a title that they dont deserve sometimes,and those accepting initiations from such people..well:its their karma!
When Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakur order to form a GBC to guide vaisnavas,and not name any successor,his advice was not followed,and the proclaimed successor fell down,and other disciples built their own mathas,and declared themselves guru.With time,only Srila Prabhupada succeeded to please his spiritual master,by taking the Maha Mantra to the west as well as the Vedic scriptures.Others preferred to stay in India...but none did the enormous work of Srila Prabhupada for the whole world.
He gave the complete instructions to become a pure devotee of the Lord and not just ABCD,as claimed by new arrivals of gurus,who dare to re-initiate his disciples,saying they have higher knowledge,not given by His Divine Grace Srila Prabhupada.

Anuttama prabhu, there is a conversation thread titled "Does the "Direction of Management" (DOM) document apply today?" you might want to read through.

Caitanya Mahaprabhu has ordered everyone to become guru. There is no doubt that we should know the science of Krishna, and encourage everyone we meet to "bolo krishna, bhajo krishna, koro krishna-siksa" - chant Krishnas Names, worship Krishna, and follow Krishnas instructions.

Becoming Guru, as in some recognized social post, is something else. If we stayed focused on doing the work and becoming qualified, then the whole system will manifest automatically and naturally. Its when we think that being guru means enjoying some respect, position, influence, power, facility, etc. that problems creep in.

Just be a humble servant of the humble servant, that is the qualification. The other stuff is social detail, which will align automatically if the inner conception is right, and can never be a substitute for it, no matter how many quotes we find about "how it should look".

Satsvarupa: ... Then our next question concerns initiations in the future, particularly at that time when youre no longer with us. We want to know how first and second initiation would be conducted.
Prabhupada: Yes. I shall recommend some of you. After this is settled up, I shall recommend some of you to act as officiating acaryas.
Tamala Krsna: Is that called rtvik-acarya?
Prabhupada: Rtvik, yes.
Satsvarupa: Then what is the relationship of that person who gives the initiation and the...
Prabhupada: Hes guru. Hes guru.
Satsvarupa: But he does it on your behalf.
Prabhupada: Yes. That is formality. Because in my presence one should not become guru, so on my behalf, on my order... Amara ajnaya guru hana. Be actually guru, but by my order.
Satsvarupa: So they may also be considered your disciples.
Prabhupada: Yes, they are disciples. Why consider whose?

The above conversation is very clear. Srila Prabhupada says, "yes, they are disciples. Why consider whose?" and he also says, "be actually guru, but by my order." For myself, I wouldnt dare to take a disciple unless ordered to do so by Srila Prabhupada. In our sampradaya, the spiritual master is worshipped on the same level as Krsna. It takes a great deal of purity to accept such worship without becoming illusioned.

[quote][cite] anuttama:[/cite]The above conversation is very clear. Srila Prabhupada says, "yes, they are disciples. Why consider whose?" and he also says, "be actually guru, but by my order." For myself, I wouldnt dare to take a disciple unless ordered to do so by Srila Prabhupada. In our sampradaya, the spiritual master is worshipped on the same level as Krsna. It takes a great deal of purity to accept such worship without becoming illusioned.[/quote]

Initiation is just a ritual;the most difficult is to follow the rules!
So many were personally initiated by Srila Prahupada,but where are they now?Mass initiation,christian style by priests-ritviks- may be excellent,mainly for children,who are now surrounded by all sorts of drug addiction/pornography and gambling,and I believe that such promise at the age of seven would be nice for their spiritual life.The present initiation process is only for a very small minority,and so the mass will not profit from Lord Gaurangas instruction:become all of you spiritual masters! Just like the Amish community,further brahminical initiation can be given when one has show such propensity and qualities.At age of seven,the sex regulation is not necessary!Maybe another formality at 12 for this?
History has shown that the worship as God,for ordinary humans,is detrimental for them,as there are too much wealth and fame involved:it invites cheating and fights among different disciples and zones!
Only qualified brahmins[by different exams,established by the Founder],leading an exemplary life should give Bhagavatam class,though even illiterates can be gurus by exemple.
If a census is carried out, well be able to observe that 99% of preaching is still to be done around the world,and so,an army of preachers are required for this holy mission,that cant be done without some organization.
The other faiths are very busy planning scientifically their strategy for spreading worldwide,destroying the emergent vaisnavism,considered infidels both by christians and muslims,as we worship "idols".Its not impossible that they have infiltrated this movement in order to destroy it!
We should dare to take disciples,and share the burden of sinful disciples,and not treat Srila Prabhupada like an eternal dustbin for all sins for a further 9,500 yrs!
If the guru is pure,such responsibility will not be so heavy,as eventually the reactions is taken by the Lord himself,through disciplic succession,but the personal loving care of a guru can change the worst of criminals into vaisnavas,while non-genuine materialistic gurus,only interested in exploiting his discipless money and body,can only deter them from Krishna.So,its better to have a simple and sincere devotee as a guide,rather than such persons.Such relationship is so rewarding and full of bliss,as it is purely spiritual,and only those who are sincere can experience it. Anyone,following the instructions of the pure devotee,can qualify to become also a pure devotee,in time,and thus be able to deliver others under his/her care!
Theres no need to hunt for disciples[websites/jet-setting],as Krishna will send them automatically.
Pure devotees will always be rare,but everyone should get a chance to hear the philosophy or chant Hare Krishna...even once!

Those still attached to Allah/Jesus/Jehovah or other,can also progress,if they chant these Names,but they should become vegetarians and follow the other rules as well.Many hindus are still meat-eaters,but chant Hare Krishna....and so,will be slow to progress.We should not force these people,through food distribution in schools,to accept krishna prasadam,as they can also offer it to Jesus/Allah!
Its the same God!