Pariprashnena — Q&A Archive

you mean the process?
i guess:

be a nice devotee for many years.
dont criticize the gbc.
get recommendations to be guru
be sanctioned by the gbc

My understanding, 1. Get a bonafide guru. 2. Inquire from him submissively and render service. 3. Get the gurus mercy.

i heard it was vote system, put in place by gbc.

For me ritviks and rubber stamped gurus are the two sides of the same coin, all striving to have the initiation monopoly with different flawed arguments.

One thing is the eternal parampara system, another is the managerial authority deciding who is guru.

Where is the instruction of Srila Prabhupada on this very important subject? He certainly says "you all become guru" but certainly does not put GBC to the task of deciding who is guru.

Imho, the fear to lose control and chaos (probably caused by love for Srila Prabhupada and Iskcon), makes the managers over-control and go astray.

Can you give absolute powers to conditioned souls?

GBC means they can change anything now that Srila prabhupada is not physically present?

Are they sufficiently qualified to overrule present constitution and simple preaching strategy by Srila Prabhupada?

Did not they NOT follow SP instructions, got problems, and now want to change those instructions like they are of not value on the plea of desha-kala-patra?

Can they rule over Srila Prabhupadas instructions, or should they get real and start JUST following exactly to the letter to keep safe?

Are they or the sum total of them really qualified to appoint gurus?

The sum total of a group is not more than the best of them.

The principle of guru as I said in other posts, can be compared to marriage. Somebody might want take the risk to pre-select someone for you, but you better choose someone that fits your understanding of guru, at your own risk, and certainly from the broad society of men/women, not from a preselected list.

Yare Dekha tare kaha Krsna upadesh amara ajnaya guru hana tara ei desa

'93Instruct everyone to follow the orders of the Lord Sri Krsna as they are given in the Bhagavad Gita and Srimad Bhagavatam. In this way become a spiritual master and try to liberate everyone in this land.'94 (Cc. Madhya 7.128)

[p]yes, thats mahaprabhus order for every bona fide vaisnava to become a guru - siksa, diksa, whatever. and generally, every vaisnava can. the disciple approaches the prospective guru, and if both are satisfied that the other is qualified, they accept each other. [/p]

[p]according to vaisnava-etiquette one doesnt accept disciples while ones own guru is still present; obviously a vaisnava would feel that his guru is more qualified than himself to be a guru.[/p]

[p]in a math, the acarya decides how things are done, including who initiates and who doesnt. ISKCON isnt a math, and the closest we have to an acarya is the GBC. from the 1975 GBC meetings:[/p]

[quote]Resolved: The GBC (Governing Body Commission) has been established by His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada to represent Him in carrying out the responsibility of managing the International Society for Krishna Consciousness of which He is the Founder-Acarya and supreme authority. ...[/quote]

[p]that doesnt spell out that the GBC is to appoint gurus, but its included in the job-description. the other alternative would be to not regulate guruship at all: anybody who feels like can accept disciples. sometimes i thought this might be a better option, but in the end i came to the conclusion it wont. there are too many people with inflated egos around, and too many people who dont know enough to discriminate. in the end ISKCON and the GBC would be blamed, anyway, because they [i]are[/i] the final authority, for allowing such things to happen.[/p]
[p]some regulation should be there, some minimum-standard that those who want to accept disciples have to fulfill. obviously they cant look into anybodys heart and really know what the person will or wont do during the next 50 years. the present system is awkward, and perhaps a better one can be found, but the principle, that the GBC decides whos going to initiate, is ok, IMO.[/p]

[quote][cite] phani:[/cite]
[p]that doesnt spell out that the GBC is to appoint gurus, but its included in the job-description.[/p][/quote]
where is the job description where this is included?

in the quote above, where it says the GBC is "to represent Him in carrying out the responsibility of managing the International Society for Krishna Consciousness." i dont see why deciding on initiation-issues shouldnt be included; thats an important part of "managing the society," no?

Phani ISKCON not being a math how would it be described

A more pressing Question would be..... How do you become a "Dead Guru"? Since the previous Acharyas always said that they never die, and live for ever in Sound!

As this sankirtana Movement is predicted to become the worlds new religion,there must be a bonafide organisation to control the quality of preachers,as all other religions have done.Why it has not been all successful,its because the top leaders didnt have yet vedic knowledge.But if we look at its positive side,they did bring a certain unity in the many divisions of faiths that existed.There has been also very materialistic and corrupt Popes and clergy,but not 100%.Due to this structure,they implemented education,which allowed many of us to get material knowledge,as well as some morality as most probably we were not ready to get that purified,just as a great percentage of hindus are still meat-eaters,in spite of knowing the vedic laws.

It is also known that there existed,for those who desired to live a more religious life,monasteries and convents,where they had to be 100% obedient to the top priest or nun,recite endless prayers,and St Francis of Assissi even had vegetarian food for his organisation.
More clergy in the preaching mood founded the Franciscan order,whose mission was to christianise the whole world,by preaching to all categories of people,including kings and aristocracy.Such preaching brought great wealth,as the very wealthy gave great inheritance to the Order,by promising to save their souls through confessions/forgivenes of sins.So that,in fact,they became the ones who were [and still are?]directing the whole world through advising of rulers and kings.

Due to a lack or proper knowledge,and most probable corrupt by infiltration of evil elements among the top clergy,the whole world is in chaos....till the arrival of Srila Prabhupada on the scene,with genuine knowledge about the soul and proper divine living,that would resolve most of this planets problems.
Due to not following 100% his instructions,his Society,supposedly in charge of overviewing the growth of its members,is not experiencing total efficiency,mainly,in my opinion,that the Society is still very young,and has still much work to do,just as the Church took centuries to spread christianity.
I think the often said phrase:"He made a house where everyone can live" is not properly understood:its not that there will be ideal temples where all devotees live together.Rather, everyone will choose at what degree they will surrender to the Lord.

So,for those wishing to surrender 100%, they can live in "monasteries" or ashrams,get shaved up regularly,full morning program,studying books,get certificates and reports about their progress,and so be able to get out and create other such ashrams all over the world.The head of such ashrams should be himself of brahminical stature,giving example to those under him,excluding anyone who prefer to have less strict living,by sending him to found a family,where he can still follow nicely,by raising Krsna conscious children.The head of such ashram should be a sannyasa,and,in my opinion,train only male students.When a bhrahmacari decides to get married,he should be given all help to start his grhasta life,as in many cases before,they were just dumped on the streets!If all written guarantees are given to such students,there will be many candidates who will come forward.

For female renunciants,why not create "convents",where women devotees can organise themselves nicely,training other women/children into vaisnavism.Whenever such women desire to get married,they can choose the brahmacaries,who also prefer to get into grhasta or married life.

As both have been nicely trained,their maried life can be a model for all,and if their work is successful,such as restaurant,organic farm,cow protection,politicians[much important to implement vaisnava way of life] vaisnava priests for different social functions,such as marriage/death ceremonies,artists of all kinds or other vaisnava occupation,that,preferably avoids the association of non-devotees,as it is unfortunately now.

Such renunciant female devotees can develop their ashrams very nicely,and can get involved into preaching activities as well-schools and universities/villages,but in order to distinguish them from ordinary female vaisnavas,I think they should wear a uniform sari,,just like the Mother Theresa nuns.Should they get head shaved?Up to them!

By separating such devotees from the common ones,the public will be more aware of different grades of devotees,as it is impossible now to distinguish the neophyte from the new bhaktine! Donations will be more organised,so as to finance the "convent",and its activities.For traditions sake,[and security!]sannyassis/brahmacaries should not visit such female ashrams personally,but they can go to visiting sannyasa program and hear his message...from a distance!

"Assuming Responsibility Of Being Guru" an article by Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Maharaj

the same article formatted and readable:

http://www.gopala.org/node/92

But even if apparently not "born" a devotee, does it matter? We all know the story of the brahmana who was by habit a woman chaser who saw a woman bathing. She told her husband about it. The brahmana went up to her house and asked the husband if he could see the wife. Then he came to his senses and asked the wife for her hairpin. He plucked out his eyes. GGS said this was no ordinary person, who could do this. He was beyond the bodily platform. And Krishna Himself fed this devotee who was blind, saying that no one in His village goes hungry.

Would anyone care if this blind saint really had material desires in the beginning of his life? I wouldnt. It doesnt matter what birth we take, as long as we become pure at some point by the mercy of guru, sadhu and Krishna.

One must die and take birth again or become twice born!

According to my understanding,brahman initiation means to reject all sinful way of living[the sinful personality dies!],and a new personality with brahmanic qualities is born,[second birth] by regular practice of sadhana,and obeying the orders of his bonafide spiritual master,who succeeded to go back to Godhead,by following his spiritual masters orders.

Anyone who cant follow the orders of the Founder Acarya strictly,cant really deliver his disciples completely!

[quote][cite] govindas108:[/cite]One must die and take birth again or become twice born!

According to my understanding,brahman initiation means to reject all sinful way of living[the sinful personality dies!],and a new personality with brahmanic qualities is born,[second birth] by regular practice of sadhana,and obeying the orders of his bonafide spiritual master,who succeeded to go back to Godhead,by following his spiritual masters orders.

Anyone who cant follow the orders of the Founder Acarya strictly,cant really deliver his disciples completely![/quote]

Do you have any sastric pramana, preferably from Bhagavatam/sruti/smriti or pancaratra to the above. I will add it to my collection of [i]extreme instructions.

PARIPRASHNENA IS A WASTE OF TIME

[quote][cite] ccd:[/cite][quote][cite] govindas108:[/cite]One must die and take birth again or become twice born!

According to my understanding,brahman initiation means to reject all sinful way of living[the sinful personality dies!],and a new personality with brahmanic qualities is born,[second birth] by regular practice of sadhana,and obeying the orders of his bonafide spiritual master,who succeeded to go back to Godhead,by following his spiritual masters orders.

Anyone who cant follow the orders of the Founder Acarya strictly,cant really deliver his disciples completely![/quote]

Do you have any sastric pramana, preferably from Bhagavatam/sruti/smriti or pancaratra to the above. I will add it to my collection of [i]extreme instructions.[/quote]

I hope youve understood my quote:I dont mean one should die physically,but ones sinful personality has to "die" meaning one should never commit sinful activities again.Its actually the formal vow that all devotees take upon receiving initiation,confirmed by brahman initiation.Look also in Nectar of Devotion ,ch one,verse one.

I am actually entertained by the off-the-wall procedures and policies of the so-called GBC which they enforce under the rubric of Prabhupadas ISKCON. The diksa-by-GBC-authorized-guru requirement is as blindly rigid as the standards for being guru are lax (its ok to have sexual relations, own bank accounts, associate intimately with women etc); these standards are a scripture of excuses to maintain their claim to absolute power.
The GBC have supplanted Prabhupadas role and authority. They are collective acarya. It used to be the Zonal Acaryas. The GBC, therefore authorized themselves to authorize diksa gurus. The GBC make mistakes - an alarming number of them in this regard - judging from the fall downs.
Therefore the GBC are under the modes of material nature.
Therfore the GBC are NOT qualified to authorize anybody to be diksa guru who must be transcendentally situated.
Its an enormous top-heavy destructive offensive joke.