Pariprashnena — Q&A Archive

What women rights? The right to freely flirt with men. The right to be modern and independent?

The right of woman to have as much freedom as men.

meme: if you quote the passages it might help discern your problem

I think this is just western mentality contamination. To have the same rights as men etc.

Its nice to see that male devotees like women to be chaste and submisive but this reminded me of something Bhakti Vidya Purna Maharaja said... "Every man wants a wife like Sita Devi but in order to have a wife like Sita Devi you have to be like Lord Rama"...

So yes, in order to follow Vedic culture properly men must also have the same rights as women regarding chastity and so on :)

Regarding the question, please meme, would you mind being more specific when you talk about rights?

How about preaching to non-devotee woman about womans position? This is just to be devils advocate. I have 2 sisters who are quite independent and much more materially succesful than me. Difficult to preach to.

I think its better to make them understand their etternal position as servants of Krsna...

I am afraid that in practice it is a little bit more complicated than that, Sol.

First we, male devotees, have to understand more womans psicology and therefore their value as persons and devotees themselves.

Secondly, explain how we are not equal, we are different, but that doesnt mean inferior or superior, just different.

Thirdly, our major difference is that female conceives a child and naturally takes direct care of her/him.

See how our society is doing a disservice to children (future mankind) by advocating that "equality". Now women have to take care of their babies AND work.
Males have created feminism, cause that "freedom" enables them to "hit and run" if you understand what i mean :(

I think negative reaction is natural and comes from being deprecated. Personally if I meet a feminist I make sure they feel honestly apreciated and talk about our great women devotees, examples of which we have plenty.

Another good example and all of this for real, not just trying to appease an angry "mother", is talk about "Hare".

See, Radharani is always before the Lord; even in our mantra takes precedence and is actually the Mercy through which we can obtain our Lord Krishna.

...just my 2 cents

What I meant to say was that it would be better to avoid saying that woman are inferior to men, what would take his sisters away from Krsna, but I can see that your point of view would give a better result, just explaining everything to clarify this aspect instead of avoiding this matter that is quite controversial amongs non-devotees. I have been asked a few times by them about the rol of women in the Hare Krsna movement and I tried my best but sometimes I feel that they dont believe me and think that we are exploited.

I just found this> Srila Prabhupada said that women are less-intelligent than men. Can we support this?
http://www.dandavats.com/?p=600

yes, with the proper understanding

Hari Sauri Prabhu is saying that women have less ability to understand the practical difference between matter and spirit. The knowledge of the difference between matter & spirit is true knowledge, rest is nescience. So the ability to be a lawyer or PHD is not intelligence in the highest form that is being considered by Prabhupada when saying that women are less intelligent.

I think even a modern woman can deal with that statement that woman in general have less inclination to discern matter & spirit. (you can make it sound nice)

What about when Prabhupada said that Indira Gandhi should retire from being the Prime Minister because she is a woman? I suppose Prabhupada said that because leaders should lead their dependents beyond birth & death. Why would a non-devotee male prime minister be better than a non-devotee female prime minister? Or did Prabhpuada say it because it set a bad example for society?

Generalizations can sometimes be more dangerous than they are useful (Im being careful to not make a generalization there...)

I once had lunch with John Maxwell, the leadership teacher and author. Someone at our table asked him: "John, in your marriage, who leads? You, or your wife?"

John answered with: "Just as Ive been making the point, in an area where one is stronger, they lead. In an area where the other is stronger, they follow. So in areas where my wife is stronger, she leads. In areas where Im stronger, I take the lead."

Different people are, well, different. Different men have different strengths. Different women have different strengths. Are there generalizations that can be made? Maybe. Are they useful? Maybe.

At the end of the day, however, its a good idea to keep it personal. There are examples of both men and women who have shown both a presence and a lack of intelligence, and compassion, and many other qualities. So there may be more value in many cases in assessing things according to their qualities and activities (guna and karma), rather than resorting to talking about impersonal hypothetical categories (such as varna or gender) and generalizations.

The concept of equal rights does not exist. There is no such thing as equality, unless you are talking about spiritual equality. Otherwise, different bodies have different limitations. Different races have different limitations. Different types of people have different limitations.

As Tamal Krishna Goswami said, we have a hard time getting rid of our intellectual baggage. Krishna consciousness and our previous conditioning from the western modernistic society are two completely opposed elements. Best to not try to mix them together... we might end up with something very different from pure Krishna consciousness. So, my dear meme, in short, the answer to your question is: Womens rights, or feminism, is not compatible with our philosophy.

Sorry about the double post. Can you add a delete option?

Delete own comment option added, see "remove" besides "edit" link. Thank you for the feedback, Bh Corey.

No problem.

Amalagaura:

I quote your two different comments:

1. "How about preaching to non-devotee woman about womans position? This is just to be devils advocate. I have 2 sisters who are quite independent and much more materially succesful than me. Difficult to preach to."

2. "The right of woman to have as much freedom as men."

Answer #1. Our movement needs to consider if we really want to attract these indepedent and puffed up people. We are willing to accept anyone- if they are willing to accept our philosophy. But why should we accomadate people? Rather, Srila Prabhupada said more than a few times, they are supposed to accept our philosophy, not that we are supposed to accept theirs. Srila Prabhupada even went so far as to say "If you are not willing to accept...go to hell". That should settle the question of accomdation, which is unfortunately becoming more popular with the younger generation of devotees, the idea that we should lower our standards in order to attract more people. Once again, Srila Prabhupada was completely opposed to this. Rather, he wanted just a few moons, rather than millions of "nonsense stars". Purity is the force that powers our movement. Because certain segments would like to stop making purity our focus, and have started to look for "easy" ways to preach, people are losing respect for our movement, both inside and outside ISKCON. As Prabhupada said, Your material management formulas will not help you. Only spiritual purity and force. We are not after cheap membership.

Answer #2. That is an illusory statement. It is like saying "I can catch the moon in my hand". If women can have equal freedom to men, then can they give up the freedom to have a child? No. Thus, the whole statement is a logical error.

1. Yes you are right, we should not compromise our principals. But if one can do that with some tact then he more intelligent than one who does not compromise but at the same time cannot present eternal teachings in a way that a soul in maya can accept and start making advancement. Even we are on a gradual path, so it is up to the preacher to raise someone to a higher stage.
Even SP went on the principal of time, place & circumstance in allowing women in the temples in USA. That is not the way it is in India and Indian devotees would be AGHAST at such a thing, but it is commonplace in the west.

2. If woman want equal freedom to men why should they give up their freedom to have children? They want to expand their freedom, not curtail it.

If we take SPs statement of "less intelligent" as referring to real intelligence of how to get out of the material world, then can woman be lawyers, doctors, etc? We know that is not good for devotional life, but what about devotee men becoming lawyers, doctors, etc? That is ok?

Harekrishna,
When we understand from vedic point of view, women are always subordinate to men, since that is the order of the vedic society externally. Internally women are given more respect than anyone, since they are the whole maintainers of family matters.
At present age due to maya and fallen age(KALI), women are also given same education as men and given more leading roles, this leads to more destruction than goodness.
for eg, brahamacharya system is totally destroyed in present day education due to co-education. There are lot of divorce cases due to co-workers as females. When we understand clearly this is happening due to not following the vedic philosophy.
Women are given education but for maintaining their families since we are still living in material world.
In the spiritual point of view , women is shakti(the primeval power), but are they eligible for that position depends on their conscoiusness level and understanding of their position.Same also applies for men whether they are eligible to do so.

Women is worshipped in vedas as saraswati(goddess of knowledge and education), Lakshmi(goddess of wealth) and parvati(goddes of this universe-jaganmata).
Still they are always subordinate to supreme god Lord Krishna.

Are we following vedic culture???????????????????????????????

Dear visnu prabhu,
Thank you for the nice post.

Behind all actions, there is generally some philosophy. You said that the cause of a lot of these problems is because we are not following Vedic culture, and I agree fully. But, the problem doesnt end there. Instead of following the proper siddhanta (philosophy of Krishna consciousness), generally people have contaminated ideas that are still stuck with them from their pre-devotional days. Some of these contaminated philosophies are mayavadism, feminism, liberalism, etc. A lot of the problems you mentioned in your post, as well as others have mentioned in their posts in this thread, are due to the underlying philosophy of feminism.

We can test how pure we are becoming in Krishna consciousness by testing how much we are freed from misconceptions, contaminated philosophies, and our own mental speculation. This process is so simple. It simply requires that we give up everything we think we know, and accept Srila Prabhupada as our absolute authority. To justify these nonsense philosophies (mayavadism, feminism, liberalism) requires us to relativize Srila Prabhupadas absolute position (because Srila Prabhupada very heavily spoke against these bogus philosophies). Anyway, I have already discussed that in detail in another thread on this website.

Dear Prabhus!

Why, oh why, is it soooo important to you that men are should be above women? What is your motive? You must count yourselve so lucky you have so many "Prabhupada said" to throw out there to support your cause.

>Why do you give more weightage to a particular type of male? Just to win an argument?

Because a lot of the males of this particular type are those who promote (or promoted) that women should neither be heard or seen. To whom spiritual life seems to be dependent on that the women in ISKCON are oppressed. Thats why. Again, what is actually their motive??

There is so much hatred and abuse of women in our society. Enough is enough.

Dear Mataji,

Most spiritual leaders in this world are also men. Srila Prabhupada said this. This is not my statement. He said "why are there no big big scholars, philosophers who are female. Very few may be". Are spiritual and tatwa darshis less dear to you than peodophiles? Why do you give more weightage to a particular type of male? Just to win an argument?

I agree to you where you say that one should look at one self before pointing at others. But it applies to everyone. You and I all should do it.

To Amala Prabhu, yes may be 86% of males are inmates etc.. are you saying you have no faith in what Srila Prabhupada said?

Google Battle
"he invented" 1,040,000 results
"she invented" 162,000 results

http://www.googlebattle.com/index.php?domain=%22he+invented%22&domain2=%22she+invented%22&submit=Go%21

Unfortunately, because of the the fallen age of Kali, even male bodied individulas are fallen. Men have a tendency to exploit due to their natural selfishness and selfcenterdness (that a word:)?). Thats why the whole issue of feminism and womens rights came up in the first place. Of course men like to ignore this fact altogether and just blame the women for wanting bad things like independence and freedom.

Whenever there is a discussion of equal rights between men and women I cant help but sence a fear from the male participants. What are you afraid of? As a woman, I totally agree that men and women are different. I see no problem there. But why must there be a difference in equality??
I grew up in a devotee family and I remember as a small kid already wondering what the fuss was all about. One fo the basics of our philosphy is that we are NOT THESE BODIES!

Male or female, lets just chant Hare Krishna and be happy!

Hare Krishna

My ill advised views on the matter

I want the same rights as women too...i believe i am being discriminated against also :) Really no joking.

1. Why should I as a man be allowed to only be a father ( not married yet..but someday i shall..i hope)...i want to be a mother also...means i want to bear the child in my womb....oops..i want a womb also LOL....its so unfair

2. I want to be able to wear bangles, saris, and all that makeup..and still be able to also wear jeans, shirts, trousers etc....and not have people laugh at me...and call me crazy..they dont call the ladies crazy when they do this.

3. I want to be not asked to help with lifting heavy stuff, carry the luggage, fix the things around the house...why should i be singled out...the ladies are not asked to do this.

4....and the list can go on.

I was just trying to present my point satirically...no bad intentions....but God created all of us different...i can similarly complain that the next man is richer than me, stronger, has more kids, a bigger car, and so on :)

Our aim is not to consolidate our position in the material world..and claim more rights here ....but to relinquish our rights here..and aspire for the pleasures of devotional service....we aspire to do our duties not ask for rights :)

Well...duties...who decides them....as devotees..we ask superiors....and superiors decide based on sastra...so what if i am a software wizkid....if i am asked to clean the floor....then thats service..and counts as much in Krishnas logbook as the pujaris service of worshipping, or the temple presidents management.

If I can beat my mind with a broom and shoes...as Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakur advised...then maybe i will progress spiritually.

I am not a man, or woman or human or ant...i am a soul...a soul who is the servant of the Lord...Lord Sri Krishna.

Thats my identity..and becoz i forget that..i get dissatisfied.

But does this mean...i can behave as i like..stroll into someone elses house, sit on his couch..and eat all his prasadam..and say...Hey!!! we are all one...

NO !!!

I need to know internally that everything belongs to Krishna..so my things belong to Krishna..and to His other servants...me included...but as long as someone else doesnt think similarly....why should i give him a hard time..imposing my views :)

better...i offer him my couch..and prasadam..as a sign of respect..and expect no similar respect in return..

so in my humble opinion...the woman rights issue is just another offshoot of misidentification with matter..atleast in most cases...

my humble obeisances to the devotees..and pls forgive me for any offenses.

I hope to learn from the views of other senior devotees where I may be wrong.

Imho, there is no use to argue about who is more conditioned by matter. This reminds me of those two arguing men ("knife!... no, scissors!!").
If we stick to a dharma view, these clouds will disperse. If we can, that is.

Srila Prabhupada said perfect things. We just have to become qualified to understand. SP is not talking about spiritual aspect when he says women are inferior because spiritually men = women = tiger = dog etc etc. All are spirit souls. In the material world, men and women have different responsibilities, different roles. Men cannot bear children for example. A submissive women is actually very powerful. SP says that many times. We should not let modern western concept of equality college our understanding of spiritual equality.

Hare Krsna Kuli Mataji (sorry I dont call matajis as Prabhu :)

"Men have a tendency to exploit due to their natural selfishness and selfcenterdness" - Really?? I think even modern mundane surveys will tell you that women are more interested in killing their child in theri womb due to demoniac ideas like maintaining figure etc.. Is this not self centerdness? I think you are making a baised comment there.. That is why in making generalized statements we must give evidence from shastras. Where is your evidence?

Prabhus,

I have always wondered; what is your definition of feminism?

Feminism is when the man goes out and tells the world how women should be submissive. Then when he comes home his wife chastises him when noone is around and he sits there and cant do anything. Then he has to try to figure out what went wrong so he figures she has too much freedom. Anyway that is one theory, it may be true too :-)

Feminism is created by men. They say "you are equal, you are free" then they enjoy without responsability in the name of equality; at the end as we know women suffer cause they need stability and a home to raise a family.

Now we find women being free to work in a job and when they come home do home chores.

And the worst: children suffer the most, being put in child care since craddle, reaping unprecedent psicological damage.

>>There is so much hatred and abuse of women in our society. Enough is enough.

There is too much of feminism also. That is against vedic principles. Enough is enough.

>>what is actually their motive??

What is your motive if I may ask?? Why are you trying to prove that women shoudl nto be submissive?? Are you power hungry? :)

Hare Krsna!

If men are so much more intelligent than women, then why are over 86% of all inmates in prison male? Why are over 93% of all violent crimes committed by males? Why are wars initiated and fought mostly by men? Where is the intelligence behind all of this?! Obviously, every single male is not more intelligent than every single female--the very statement is highly relative just to begin with.

In the article below I have collected some of Srila Prabhupadas negative statements against women, in case anyone is interested:

http://www.galva108.org/misusing.html

- Amara

Dear Damodar Prabhu!!!!!

>"Men have a tendency to exploit due to their natural selfishness and selfcenterdness" - Really?? I think even modern mundane surveys will >tell you that women are more interested in killing their child in theri womb due to demoniac ideas like maintaining figure etc...

Yeah... This is a point that can be argued forever. For example most pedophiles (grown adults who rape children) are men. These type of "men" have caused havoc even within our own spiritual society. Many of these men were in respected leadership positions who exploited those who were subordinate to them. In the most selfish ways not caring that they crippled and destroyed both the spiritual and material lives of these children.

It is my experience, being raised since babyhood to be a submissive and obedient women, that unfortunately there are very few real men who deserve a vedic woman. So, all you prabhus out there; take a good hard look at yourselves and try to better yourselves first before pointing the finger at the other gender. We will do the same and lets see what happens!

So it is more like:
1. men should not get puffed up thinking they are better than women
2. women should not get too fanatical about being liberal
right?

SIMPLY CHANT AND BE HAPPY WETHER YOU ARE MEN OR WOMEN HARE KRISHNA HARE KRISHNA KRISHNA KRISHNA HARE HARE HARE RAMA HARE RAMA RAMA RAMA HARE HARE

Abhiram Prabhu,

No one should get puffed up about anything because every position in material world is temporary. That however, does not mean that someone whose body is designed to be in a submissive position should try to be the master. This is one of the symptom of Kali Yuga. I dont understand what is the argument about. Shastras clearly state that women should be submissive, especialy wife should be submissive to husband. Shastras dont say that only if husband is like Lord Rama then wife should be submissive. Shastras say ALL WIVES SHOUDL BE SUBMISSIVE TO HUSBAND. Unless you say that you dont care about shastras, then I dont see how you cna argue. Kuli Mataji, is especailly try to push her feminist agenda. I challenge her to show evidence from Shastras. If however, you dont have any, then you can say whatever you like. Who cares?

>>Feminism is when the man goes out and tells the world how women should be submissive. Then when he comes home >>his wife chastises him when noone is around and he sits there and cant do anything. Then he has to try to figure out what >>went wrong so he figures she has too much freedom. Anyway that is one theory, it may be true too :-)

Sorry Amala Gaura Prabhu, this is not a bonafide theory. Please read Srila Prabhupadas instructions on this issue.

>ALL WIVES SHOUDL BE SUBMISSIVE TO HUSBAND

I have not said submission is to be demanded by an individual. From you analysis if submission does not come it has to be the fault of the husband. Infact, shastras state that wife MUST be submissive. Nowhere it is stated that it should be demanded and no where have I stated it either. It simply says wife MUST be submissive. If she is not then she is violating princples of dharma. Try to get rid of pseudo ideas of equality then u you be may be able to udnerstand the point.

> To Amara Prabhu, yes, maybe 86% of inmates are male, etc...are you saying you have no faith in what Srila Prabhupada said?

My goodness, no! I have complete faith in Srila Prabhupada! However, I do not follow him blindly or foolishly. I know, for instance, that many women are more intelligent than many men. Is a mentally-retarded male more intelligent than a female High Court judge? Of course not. Obviously, Srila Prabhupadas statement that "men are more intelligent than women" is a general and relative statement at best. It cannot be compared to non-relative statements like "Krsna is the Supreme Personality of Godhead," which is true in all circumstances.

In any case, a real guru never wants his disciples to follow him blindly or foolishly--he expects them to use their intelligence and apply his teachings in a thoughtful, constructive way. Prabhupada never wanted us to parrot his statements without any thought or consideration about their appropriateness.

-Amara

Amara Prabhu,

Following Srila Prabhupada blindly is a blessing that not many are bestowed. But to prove your point as false, I dont have to use blind faith in SP because:

SP has never said ALL MEN ARE MORE INTELLIGENT THAN ALL WOMEN. So what are you trying to prove. Ofcourse, it is a general statement which if you take the whole population of men and compare with whole population of women will be true. What is the point in giving argument like is all women less intelligetn than all men. Who has said this? Neither has SP nor have I said it. Why try to use something that has not been and try to refute it?

Additionally, even if a wife is more intelligent than her husband (which is quite possible because intelligence is not supposed to be a criteria for marriage) she still MUST be submissive. This "MUST" is not a demand that the husband is supposed to impose as Kuli Mataji has conveniently used to prove mumdane equality. This "MUST" is prescribed by shastras. That is the only way she can achieve great power and "control". This is the prescription of shastras. We get control over even Krishna with submission. Same concept. Shastras teach us that Husband is to be treated as good as Lord Hari. Shastras dont say treat your husband like Hari only if he is like Hari. It says treat him like Hari no matter what. Even Ravana was treated properly by his wife who was infact a great devotee named Mandadara.

Unless there is reference to or quotes from Shastras mentioned in subsequent posts, I am not going to respond.

Hare Krsna, Damodara Prabhu!

Please do not take any offense. I am simply trying to remind everyone that there is a difference between relative statements and absolute statements. A relative statement means there are sometimes, or even often, exceptions to the general rule ("men are more intelligent than women"), whereas an absolute statement is true in all circumstances ("Krsna is the Supreme Personality of Godhead").

Nearly all statements regarding the material world are relative. Even the statement, "women must be submissive to their husbands" is not always true. For instance, if a husband tells his wife to lie, steal, drink alcohol, or some other such thing then she is certainly entitled not to submit to that.

In the material world, submission is generally considered a very exalted quality in women. In the spiritual world, however, Krsna appreciates and enjoys even more the women that are unsubmissive! Among the gopis there are two camps, those that are submissive (Candravalis camp, the "right-wing" gopis) and those that are fiesty and unsubmissive (Sri Radhas camp, the "left-wing" gopis). Krsna actually enjoys much more the pleasure and fun created by Radhas fiery temperment and unsubmissiveness.

This is just a side point, to help lighten up the debate!

Vaishnava das anudas,

Amara dasa

What feminism has led to:
http://www.rense.com/general77/GENDER.HTM

The push by God knows who to let woman serve in the military in combat. (nice article)

Kids are the next? Nazis used Hitlerjugend at the end of WWII and they are prominent in current Western African war conflicts.

"Rockefellers funded womens lib in order to get the rest of the population taxed, and the kids into state system at an early age." (Aaron Russo, friend of Rockefellers)

Womens "rights" are that they were introduced in the work force and little children must go to kindergarten almost since birth.
"Freedom" consists on having the opportunity of being exploited.

why has this post resurrected???

[quote][cite] VEDA:[/cite]"Rockefellers funded womens lib in order to get the rest of the population taxed, and the kids into state system at an early age." (Aaron Russo, friend of Rockefellers)[/quote]
interesting.

Can we have some womens issues discussed here by women or at least by a woman? It looks bad when a few man try to sort out feminism without at least some participation of women.. I also wonder why was this post resurrected - does the Rockefellers statement has anything to do with reasons for feminism in ISKCON?

[quote][cite] amalagaura:[/cite]The right of woman to have as much freedom as men.[/quote][br/]

They already do -- serve Krishna or serve maya.[br/][br/]

What other freedom is there?[br/][br/]

Equal rights... Thats also in Bhagavad-gita:[br/]

"You have a right to perform your prescribed duty, but you are not entitled to the fruits of action. Never consider yourself the cause of the results of your activities, and never be attached to not doing your duty."[br/]
Bg 2.47[br/][br/]

The same right applies to both men and women.[br/][br/]

Did Arjuna get to choose what was his duty?[br/][br/]

"It is far better to discharge ones prescribed duties, even though faultily, than anothers duties perfectly. Destruction in the course of performing ones own duty is better than engaging in anothers duties, for to follow anothers path is dangerous."[br/]
Bg 3.35[br/]

This statement is practically spoken twice in Bhagavad-gita.[br/][br/]

Here again, very similar:[br/]
"It is better to engage in ones own occupation, even though one may perform it imperfectly, than to accept anothers occupation and perform it perfectly. Duties prescribed according to ones nature are never affected by sinful reactions."[br/]
Bg 18.47[br/]

Krishna is talking about prescribed duties. "Prescribed" literally means "written before," as prior to ones birth. (Origin: 1425'9675; late ME < L praescruc0u299 bere to direct in writing, lit., to write before or above, equiv. to prae- pre- + scru299 bere to write.) As one gets his or her body according to the choices he or she has made in the previous birth or births, so we get our prescribed duties.[br/][br/]

Krishna does not talk about choosing ones duties now. He talks about doing ones own duty compared to doing someone elses duty, and He heavily favors the former.[br/][br/]

"Prescribed duties should never be renounced. If one gives up his prescribed duties because of illusion, such renunciation is said to be in the mode of ignorance."[br/]
Bg 18.7[br/][br/]

Illusion means to think, "I am this body," or, "I am the enjoyer of this body." We are spirit soul; and Krishna is the only enjoyer. We are enjoined to act according to duty for the purpose of serving Krishna, not with the desire to enjoy.[br/][br/]

Srila Prabhupada has stated repeatedly that a womans duty is to serve her husband, taking care of the home, children, cooking, and such activites, to help him advance in spiritual life, Krishna consciousness. Instead we often see women leave these duties for sense gratification, to have the association of karmis in the workplace and to get more money. Sometimes she wants to leave her husband, feeling that to cook and clean for him is beneath her. Unfortunately, by thinking too much of sense enjoyment with women in the previous birth, she has been given a female body along with the prescribed duties suitable for such a body. That enjoying spirit is a mans disadvantage. A womans tendency for submissiveness is her advantage for devotional service. Somehow, many women are retaining the mentality of men, which is rather unbecoming and not at all conducive to devotional service.[br/][br/]

Hare Krishna.