Pariprashnena — Q&A Archive

I personally saw many of them and paranormal effects caused by them, so it is difficult for me to put all this in the "mental creation" category.
Seeing a door opening or objects move without physical cause is certainly not "mental" to me.

a story from Hanumatpresaka Swami:

My friend Bhakta Saranga Swami was living in New Mexico (The Land of
Enchantment) before he joined ISKCON. His girl-friend was a native
American. She purported to see peoples "auras", thoughts. One time he
was sitting in her living-room with her and her two cats watching a
booring TV show. Then she said, "Theres a ghost moving across the
room and boy is this one strange looking".

My friend said, "Cut it out. Stop it".

She said, "You dont believe me do you?".

He said, "No. Stop it.".

She said (he told me), "Then just look at the cats."

He looked at the cats who were on the floor side by side at the foot
of the couch and almost jumped out of his skin. They were sitting
there crouched on the floor but they were both looking at something
move across the room. Their heads were moving completely in synch from
left to right looking at something he couldnt see.

http://www.indiadivine.org/hinduism/articles/57/1/Even-Pigs-can-Fly/

the problem is that this man had probably seen many ghosts and still though they were caused by the subconscious of some young girl.
that'b4s what he said.

I would tell him: como to Mumbai and then tell me they dont exist!!!! Hare Krsna!!!

There is no such thing as ghosts. Evolution is fact. Men walked on the moon. Illness is caused by bacteria, viruses, and genetic defects.

If your faith requires you to remain mired in the superstition and ignorance of the Middle Ages, then you have a very weak faith indeed.

a is a Dawkins bot.

a= ... and Bush looks after us all so nicely. So much for gullibility.

[quote][cite] VEDA:[/cite]a is a Dawkins bot.[/quote]
[p]do you really think that guy/thing is a bot, or should one try to talk to him?[/p]

To answer this question correctly one should understand what is real and what is exist. Yes they are real. No they are not real. Both statements are logically true. However there is no real need to consider them real to return BTG.

[quote][cite] ccd:[/cite]However there is no real need to consider them real to return BTG.[/quote]

Maybe true, but what if the Spiritual Master considers them real and the disciple doesnt?

the exist because Srimad Bhagavatam says they exist. Period.

[quote][cite] ccd:[/cite]However there is no real need to consider them real to return BTG.[/quote]
If you want to go BTG I thought you had to have faith in the scriptures, that is what i understood, you have another option? How to explain scriptures is of course another matter, but there is something else I heard that you have to listen to a guru.

[quote][cite] Bhakta Pablo:[/cite][quote][cite] ccd:[/cite]However there is no real need to consider them real to return BTG.[/quote]

Maybe true, but what if the Spiritual Master considers them real and the disciple doesnt?[/quote]

In a reverse logic, if a Spiritual Master considers that we should not worry or talk about ghost, being devotees and all that, what happens if we still do?

Ghosts are apparent in the Bhagavatam, one can interpret it to see them as "real" or as illusions of the mind. Both extremes are correct according to time and place, if you ask me.

So if your guru tells you they are not real you have to accept it.

For example one may argue:

They are not real just like this material body is not real, even made from real elements such as earth fire water that are real.

So if this body is not real, and is full of ignorance also being temporary and falsely identified as the self, how could you say that ghosts body is real? Is it a form of misidentification and illusion? On that basis to say ghosts are real is an illusion even if they are apparent or do have ghosts bodies.

(Note: unlike mayavadis of sankara, avidya jal, we do consider material body an illusion, but the universal elements that construct the body real, not to spend more time on it..)

One should not, thus, just reject anyone who considers ghosts an illusion, as if they are ignorant.

Philosophy of Bhagavatam is independent of traditional forms of thinking and can be presented thus in full to an intellectual class, without a need for them to accept ghosts as real.

[quote][cite] ccd:[/cite]

Ghosts are apparent in the Bhagavatam, one can interpret it to see them as "real" or as illusions of the mind. Both extremes are correct according to time and place, if you ask me.
[/quote]

Im not sure I understand what you mean by interpret? Are we supposed to interpreting Srimad Bhagavatm?

[quote][cite] ccd:[/cite]
So if your guru tells you they are not real you have to accept it.[/quote]

Even if their existence is supported in scripture and by our arcaryas?

[quote][cite] ccd:[/cite]Philosophy of Bhagavatam is independent of traditional forms of thinking and can be presented thus in full to an intellectual class, without a need for them to accept ghosts as real.[/quote]

What defines an intellectual class? Are you saying one can choose to reject certain aspects of Srimad Bhagavatam and still accept it as absolute?

Thank you for your input. Hare Krishna!

[quote][cite] Bhakta Pablo:[/cite][quote][cite] ccd:[/cite]

Ghosts are apparent in the Bhagavatam, one can interpret it to see them as "real" or as illusions of the mind. Both extremes are correct according to time and place, if you ask me.
[/quote]

Im not sure I understand what you mean by interpret? Are we supposed to interpreting Srimad Bhagavatm?
[/quote]
I do not know who is "we". There are some qualification to do that. I essence a guru is that person who does it.
[quote][quote][cite] ccd:[/cite]
So if your guru tells you they are not real you have to accept it.[/quote]

Even if their existence is supported in scripture and by our arcaryas?
[/quote][/quote]
That is the job of the guru to adapt to the modern day people the siddhanta. Ghosts are not part of the siddhanta. In fact I will stop answering since you changed the question from "are they are real". Scripture and acaryas can support for example that jiva never fall . Different scripture and different acaryas will not always agree on siddhanta.

What to speak on such insignificant interpretation as ghosts exist but not real, exist but imaginary, dont exit or exist and real.

[quote]

[quote][cite] ccd:[/cite]Philosophy of Bhagavatam is independent of traditional forms of thinking and can be presented thus in full to an intellectual class, without a need for them to accept ghosts as real.[/quote]

What defines an intellectual class? Are you saying one can choose to reject certain aspects of Srimad Bhagavatam and still accept it as absolute? [/quote][/quote]

I would suggest that you do two things, contact Iskcon Research Institute and get recording of Krishna Ksetra lecture on Krsna Samhita and Bhaktivinodas interpretation of Bhagavatam that was part of iskcon studies conference last July. Maybe that will answer it in detail.

Dont you think ithey are separate question(s) that you can ask at this forum? It would be right to ask them separately dont you think?

[quote][cite] ccd:[/cite]
In fact I will stop answering since you changed the question from "are they are real". [/quote]

Sorry, but it was you who changed it around in your initial response using, as you say, "reverse logic." Please see your quote "So if your guru tells you they are not real you have to accept it." I was just asking a follow up question based on your answer. Ive directly quoted your words. No problem if you no longer wish to discuss the topic.

I dont think a separate discussion needs to be started as my questions are specific to the answers youve supplied in reference to ghosts. You say their not part of the siddhanta, but they are clearly mentioned in Srila Prabhupadas translation of Srimad Bhagavatam as being real. Traditionally, they do seem figure into our philosophy.

I appreciate your attempt, but your suggestions are not answers to my questions as they relate to this topic in this forum. If you dont have the time, thats fine. Thanks for the discussion.

ps, by "we" i mean aspiring devotees of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu.

[quote]You say their not part of the siddhanta, but they are clearly mentioned in Srila Prabhupadas translation of Srimad Bhagavatam as being real.
[/quote]
Not everything that SP said is part of siddhanta. Where did he say anything in this effect?

I do think that the whole idea of ghost is that its not real, its perceived as real, but is only a mental concoction being on the subtle plane. I would say they exist but not real, and are illusory.

Is it what SP said being real?

[quote]
Traditionally, they do seem figure into our philosophy.
[/quote]
They are not part of philosophy. They do however are part of traditon. There is no such thing as ghost-tattva.

I suppose your understanding of words like siddhanta and tattva are different from mine :)

Here are some traditional (siddhanta) truths (tattva) as translated by His Divine Grace.

Srimad-Bhagavatam 3:20:40
"Ghosts and mischievous hobgoblins are also the creation of Brahma; they are not false. All of them are meant for putting the conditioned soul into various miseries. They are understood to be the creation of Brahma under the direction of the Supreme Lord."

Srimad Bhagavatam 5.24.5
Beneath Vidyuc0u257 dhara-loka, Cu257 ranu803 aloka and Siddhaloka, in the sky called antariksu803 a, are the places of enjoyment for the Yaksu803 as, Ru257 ksu803 asas, Piu347 u257 cas, ghosts and so on. Antariksu803 a extends as far as the wind blows and the clouds float in the sky. Above this there is no more air.

Srimad-Bhagavatam 4:2:2
"Lord Siva is described here as caracara-guru, the spiritual master of all animate and inanimate objects. He is sometimes known as Bhutanatha, which means "the worshipable deity of the dull-headed." Bhuta is also sometimes taken to indicate the ghosts. Lord Siva takes charge of reforming persons who are ghosts and demons, not to speak of others, who are godly; therefore he is the spiritual master of everyone, both the dull and demoniac and the highly learned Vaisnavas."

To add to the list, there is a verse in BG 17.4: "Men in the mode of goodness worship the demigods; those in the mode of passion worship the demons; and those in the mode of ignorance worship ghosts and spirits".

And there is a story in Padma Purana about liberation of Dhundhukari, who was released from his ghost body by listening to Srimad Bhagavatam for seven days.

[quote][cite] Bhakta Pablo:[/cite]Here are some traditional (siddhanta) truths (tattva) as translated by His Divine Grace.

Srimad-Bhagavatam 3:20:40
"Ghosts and mischievous hobgoblins are also the creation of Brahma; they are not false. [/quote]

you are right to assume that what you think is tattva is actually something that does not have any permanence. Just like you think that siddhanta is tradition:-) You quote purports as if they are verses.
yes ghosts are not false. who said they are? Did I ever used that word.

I personally find that vedabase makes lots of utsaha-mayi - and one forgets that to separate tattva from maya one needs intelligence. bhutas are not false, they are an illusion, and if you will be put into one you will suffer. ys

CCD: I think putting topics like everything is an illusion into a discussion of whether or not ghosts are real is simply misleading. We cannot say that that nothing is real, everything is an illusion so we can pick and chose what, when or where we want to say something is real or in the mind.

The existence of ghosts as living entities who exist simply with a subtle body and who lack a gross body is fairly straightforward even for someone with minimal exposure to Vedic philosophy. Why confuse the topic?

Using purports (that arent any different to me then verses as far as HDG is involved) relevant to the topic at hand is an attempt at self confidence based on insufficient realization? Using terms like utsaha-mayi to describe the use of quotes from Srimad Bhagavatam reveals a lot about you. Thanks for taking the time to preach to me. Your servant indeed.

I was not preaching to you dear prabhu. I was answering the question, real or not. Prabhupada never said they are real, he used a carefully selected words, not false. And yes you did not indicate it was a purport.

I have to take it all back: I have just found reference in Caitanya candrodaya natakam - its definitely real!

bhaktih: tassa taha jjeva mahima mahi-manado jam datthuna jjeva taha jjeva ggaha-ggattha via honti. janao jaha tassa asa-am sa-am jjeva savve jananti kunanti ca tad-anuruam.

tassa'97of Him; taha'97such; jjeva'97even; mahima'97the greatness; mahi-mana-do'97the glorifier of the earth; jam'97whom; dat'f6huna'97having seen; jjeva'97just; taha jjeva'97thus indeed; ggaha'97by a ghost; ggatha'97possessed; via'97as if; honti'97becomes; janao'97the people; jaha'97as; tassa'97His; asa-am'97 mind; sa-am'97each individually; jjeva'97indeed; savve'97they all; jananti'97undertand; kunanti'97act; ca'97and; tat-anuruam'97 accordingly.

Devotional Service: Such is the glory of the Lord that by seeing Him people become ecstatic as if possessed by a ghost. Whatever He desires, they know and do.

Hare Krishna Prabhu. Thanks for the discussion.

And check out Morning Walk 12 April 2004 with Giriraja too..ys

most people think of ghosts as dead people who are disembodied. But that is not correct is it. We read the following from above post by Bhakta Pablo

Ghosts and mischievous hobgoblins are the creation of Brahma

its from this

SB 3.20.40: "The glorious Brahmuc0u257 next evolved from his sloth the ghosts and fiends, but he closed his eyes when he saw them stand naked with their hair scattered."

so ghosts arent dead people theyre naughty creatures and are part of the material creation.

is that right

actually BOTH exist:
http://www.pariprashnena.com/discussion/223/what-is-the-difference-between-ghosts-and-pitas/

Interesting that HariBhakti Vilasa quotes the fact that yamaraja has two form, one is deva, demigod form, and the other one is pita-form.

[quote]

I would suggest that you do two things, contact Iskcon Research Institute and get recording of Krishna Ksetra lecture on Krsna Samhita and Bhaktivinodas interpretation of Bhagavatam that was part of iskcon studies conference last July. Maybe that will answer it in detail.
[/quote]

You can listen to the above presentation here. It gives an insight on how to preach to people who are as in Bhaktivinoda Thakuras preaching case are often educated class, intellectuals, and in the same time dont just accept everything on faith -- i.e. Badraloka. Its an interesting topic and could be shocking for some of more fanatical, for lack of a better word, devotees.

http://podserve.biggu.com/podcasts/show/iskcon-studies

We are ALL haunted....as soon as we are dumped in this temporary illusory material world,believing that this world is real!
The wise dont care about such world,and concentrate on the spiritual realm,by spiritual practices such as chanting the Holy Names or dedicating 100% his life to the Lord!

Antony Prabhu, SB 3.20.40 has ghosts as bhutas, while dead persons without sraddha are called pretas. There are also many other scary folks. ;)