Pariprashnena — Q&A Archive

That is mental if you think you dont want him... You are supposed to accept for spiritual reasons so dont reject for mental ones. Sometimes it just takes time to see what help your spiritual master is giving and how you are benefiting. Also it may take time to see how Krishna has guided you to that person. In the meantime you can listen to other iskcon gurus lectures and take more association with senior devotees.

Guru and disciple must test one another

I can only suggest that you meditate carefully on the following indications of Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura. They are taken from his treatise Sri Harinama Cintamini:

* The spiritual master must be strict with his disciples. He must correct a prospective disciple before initiating him, and punish the wayward initiated ones. A disciple'92s spiritual life is rendered useless if he serves and worships an unqualified guru. But as long as the relationship between the spiritual master and the disciple is stable (i.e. each remains qualified in his position) then there is no question of one rejecting the other.

* The guru-disciple relationship is eternal. If both maintain their pure positions and are bona fide, their eternal relationship is never jeopardized. However, if the spiritual master is later exposed as perfidious, the disciple must immediately repudiate him. The same is to be done by the spiritual master if the disciple is similarly exposed. If both parties do not carry out such repudiation when it is necessary, then they stand to be doomed.

* One who disrespects the bona fide pure Vaisnava spiritual master is a reprobate and fit to be shunned by all. It is advisable, therefore, that before accepting a spiritual master one should carefully choose the right person. The spiritual master must be a pure devotee of the Lord. [1] The scriptures recommend that both the spiritual master and the disciple place each other under strict scrutiny before mutual acceptance. This precludes the kula-guru [2], or traditional family guru. Of course, if the kula-guru is qualified, it is of immediate convenience to accept him, but in the case that he is not saintly, a pure devotee should be searched out and taken as spiritual master. Since even ordinary household items are tested before acquisition, it is only an unfortunate fool who will fail to go through a testing period in the selection of his true spiritual master, who is the best friend of the living entities. The unqualified kula-guru should be offered due respect and devotion and, after begging permission to leave him, a person must seek a qualified spiritual master. The point is that one must not bring upon himself the calamity of having to reject his spiritual master. If one is prudent, he can avoid such a situation. One must watchfully avoid committing any offenses against a pure devotee guru. This is disastrous and will ruin both men and demigods alike.
(Sri Harinama Cintamini, chapter 6: Guru and disciple must test one another)

and what about accepting by mental reasons and then realizing it? should i wait? wait for what? to have another person that i trust 100% he can give me transcendental knowledge? I only ask for shastra guidance on this matter. thank you

why would you want to reject your spiritual master?

reasons could be wrong and is clearly not a "trend" to follow, but obviously occurs and is even comtemplated in our scriptures as mishras post shows,
good luck, Hugo!

Here are some quotes from Krishna Bhajanamrta regarding your question :

Verse 46

If ones initiating spiritual master and instructing spiritual master are of small spiritual potency, or in other
words, if they do not poses a special power to give spiritual instruction on worship for devotional service, then
one may listen from the mouth of other great advanced Vaisnavas and understand the special instructions. However,
thereafter, the disciple must go to his spiritual master for his confirmation or instructions.

Verse 59

If the spiritual master commits a wrongful act breaking Vaisnava regulatative principles then in that case one should in a solitary place, confront him for his rectification using logic and appropriate conclusions from sadhu, sastra and guru references, but one is not to give him up.

Verse 60

One should not be hesitant or fearful because one is confronting or challenging a spiritual master.
"For it has been prescribed that one must appropriately discipline even a spiritual master who is:
*bewildered about what he should or shouldnt do; *who is inexperienced or ignorant:
*who has deviated from the Krsna conscious path; *or if he is bewildered by false pride."

Verse 63

The authorized course of action is to continue, as before, with ones prescribed devotional service. One may take guidance through or instructions from the Vaisnavas, as all Vaisnavas are considered guru or "spiritual master," or one may use ones own intelligence, duly considering the relevant instructions from sadhu, sastra and guru. In all cases one should continue in ones devotional service.

Verse 64

However, if the spiritual master: *acts envious towards isvarebrantah, that which is connected with the Supreme; *is bewildered regarding the Supreme Personality ofGodhead;*is averse to expanding the fame of Lord Krsna;*personally refuses to accept hearing or chanting about the glorious pastimes of Lord Sri Krsna;*has become totally bewildered, listening to the false praise of ignorant persons and day by day is more materially contaminated and fallen___then the spiritual master must be renounced.

Verse 65

Under those circumstances one should not doubt, "How can I give up my spiritual master?" With a strong desire for achieving spontaneous devotional service and attaining the lotus feet of Lord Krsna, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, a devotee accepts the shelter of a spiritual master, if that spiritual master takes on "asuric" qualities or a demoniac mentality then it is ones duty to reject such a demon "asura" guru and in his place accept a Krsna conscious spiritual master and worship him.

by Srila Narahari Sarkara Thakur, (the fortieth branch of the Caitanya tree)."

source: http://www.bvml.org/SKB/index.html

I think we can very safely say there is a huge gray area we are dealing with between the statements of Shrila Narahari Sarkar about challenging and rejecting an asuric spiritual master and the ideal spiritual master, the paramahamsa pure devotee.

Anyone agree with that statement.

And it is also safe to say that the VAST majority, if not all, of our ISKCON gurus after Shrila Prabhupada, fall into this gray area.

Anyone agree with that?

So then what is one to do?

That is the difficulty. I think we should try to be mature and see our spiritual masters as guides. There are so many cultural barriers nowadays. In the traditional Vedic system there was essentially one culture and the basics of being respectful to your guru was just part of the culture. Now if we can just do that I think we will accomplish a lot.

Further if you read those statements by Narahari Sarkar carefully, verse 46 says if the spiritual master does not have the potency to teach devotional principles. But for us in ISKCON that is a pre-requisite anyway. Arent those statements by Narahari Sarkar for a vedic system where the people take brahmanas as spiritual masters who may not be Vaishnavas? How is that relevant for the situation we are in?

I do not think the acarya is referring to smarta brahmanas or family gurus... "then one may listen from the mouth of other great advanced Vaisnavas".
"Other" means in the same category but with that what he calls "special power to give spiritual instruction on worship for devotional service".

As far as I see the acarya says that one must approach your spiritual master and ask permission to take shelter of another guru whom you see as to uplift you more.
To say that "all" or the majority of ISKCON gurus possess that "special power to give spiritual instruction on worship for devotional service" is based on sentiment, cause first of all, one determines it on a personal basis and no one has the right to claim that for others.

It is something like being married, you can choose whoever you see fit and no one can say otherwise, it is a personal matter. You can advice people on the qualitites of women to be married but that remains always a personal decision, with all that implies.

If your Guru is still bonafide, why would you reject him? Its like rejecting a chaste wife...

see if I understand so far, the thing is... if you come to realize that he is not going to bring you to the higuest KC realization, then as the shastra points out you can ask permission to your current guru and go to another. No question of unchaste. Correct me if I missunderstood.

Yes I think you are right, I think he is reffering to a Vaishnava guru who may not be advanced in verse 46. I wrote hastily before. In the last line of the verse Shrila Narahari Sarkar says that one has to go to his guru and take permission for this. One would not have to take permission if the guru wasnt a Vaishnava.

Still the other verses quoted (59-65) are about rejecting a non-vaishnava guru or a vaishnava guru who turns non-vaishnava.

As for a Vaishnava guru, it depends how much you have accepted him. Have you taken initiation? If so then you have to ask him for permission for all other shiksha. If you havent taken initiation then you may associate with other advanced Vaishnavas. You may take his blessings which I am sure he will give.