Pariprashnena — Q&A Archive

Imo you cant rule on that one. It is personal perception aided (hopefully) by sadhu and shastra.
So many people worship so called incarnations of God, what to speak of easier "representatives".
That is the nature of the material world; the cheaters and the cheated.
To access some supposed spiritual gain, some are prepared to accept the unacceptable.
But to say that because the rice was burned I wont cook more rice, that is silly.
Search and good luck.

btw, a pure devotee could be (and more likely) washing the pots or doing some menial service, not necessarily (and more unlikely) in the famous rank and file big fish.

I was in a class in Los Angeles once and the question came up how do we recognize a pure devotee? An older mataji raised her hand to give a comment at the end of the class. She said that she was in Mayupura with Srila Prabhupada who was giving class and the same question was raised. Srila Prabhupada said, "Look around when you are eighty years old, whoever is left, they will be the pure devotees.".

that probably forms part of the "Prabhupada said" never published book about what Prabhupada never said.
And if he did, it is easy to take out of context and apply for self-motivated policies.
I can say that many people will stay around for many years with agendas that could make you shiver.
Whatever you do, never take time as proof of spiritual advancement, it is a big mistake.

That is a very large book you speak of

Prabhupada on a number of occasions wrote that all his disciples are pure devotees. He did also used an expression "pure unalloyed devotees", and did never apply it to his disciples.

Yes, there are pure devotees in ISKCON.

Jiva Goswami explains three types of pure devotee. The first kind is nitya-siddha, uttama-adhkari bhakta situated on the platform of prem. Up to the stage of bhava you can fall back down, but on the platform of prem you cannot. I forget the exact sanskrit terms for them, but the analogy is that this pure devotee "has both feet in the spiritual world."

The second type of pure devotee "has one foot in the spiritual world and one foot in the material world". They are situated on the platform of bhava, and may fall down from this position if they are careless or unfortunate.

The third type of pure devotee "has both feet in the material world, but his eyes firmly fixed on the spiritual world". Because of his determination and aspiration, and as long as he does not take his attention from that goal, he or she is also a pure devotee.

We judge a person ultimately in terms of their aspiration, because that is what they will become.

So you should also become a pure devotee. :-)

Prabhupada also used the term pure devotee in the following context:

If a student is studying, for example law, we can generously call him a lawyer as long as he sticks to his study.

By extension of this analogy we can understand that its not advisable to engage a student lawyer to represent you in court. Prabhupada confirms this in his purport to verse 5, Nectar of Instruction saying that disciples of a Vaisuc0u803 nu803 ava on the second or third level (in Sita-pati prabhus example) "...cannot advance very well toward the ultimate goal of life under his insufficient guidance."

What anyone say that devotees of other religions can also be classified as at least the third type of devotee?

[quote][cite] SKC:[/cite]Prabhupada also used the term pure devotee in the following context:

If a student is studying, for example law, we can generously call him a lawyer as long as he sticks to his study.

[/quote]

Where is he using it? In what context? ys

One time I said, "Srila Prabhupada never said" and got cut off by my temple president before I could finish the sentence. "How do you know what he NEVER SAID!" was what he yelled at me.

So someone in here mentioned that Srila Prabhupada never said he had any unalloyed pure devotees in ISKCON. First of all, if he did have some, he may have comunicated with them without going up to them and saying, "Oh such and such unalloyed devotee, what do you think of my plans for spreading Krishna Consciousness today?". He might not have gone around telling everyone that such and such a devotee or devotees are pure unalloyed devotees. Or if he did have some he might have even told them about it but I dont think pure devotees usually discuss among themselves how they are all pure and unalloyed.

My point is unless we have a quote, preferably written down in his books, where Srila Prabhupada says definately he does not have any pure unalloyed devotees or disciples we have to be careful what we say. I hate to say it is speculation like I was chastised for before I even had a chance to say anything that one time but just because something doesnt come up on the Vedabase doesnt mean Srila Prabhupada never discussed something with anyone.

[quote]
My point is unless we have a quote, preferably written down in his books, where Srila Prabhupada says definately he does not have any pure unalloyed devotees or disciples we have to be careful what we say.[/quote]

You are right that just because SP have not stated or written anything to the effect that there are pure unalloyed devotees in his movement there are none. In fact he said that we will have ISKCON in the spiritual world, [some of course are not so sure now, if they really want to go to that spiritual world, but I dont mind if that is my service:-)].

In fact this term "pure unalloyed devotees" may in fact apply fully and normally to nitya-lila devotees. After all most of sadhana siddha gopis had to get purified even while in Gokula. Just like you :-o were hopefully purified when being cut short by your pure devotee temple president.

Having said that please note that I may have been misunderstood by you - I wrote:

"He did also used the expression "pure unalloyed devotees", and did never apply it to his disciples." So I agree with you in principle.

..heres a bonafide candidate for " pure devotee " status,none other than Murari das of Iskcon Vancouver,leading the pulling of the Rathayatra cart.Murari Prbahu was itiated in 1987.

The pure devotee is always avoiding the 10 offenses,and is always enthusiastic to spread the Holy Name of Krishna.

He is always seeing Krishna in Vrndavana performing His pastimes too when he chants.

[quote][cite] adikavi:[/cite]He is always seeing Krishna in Vrndavana performing His pastimes too when he chants.[/quote]
Wrong idea. We practice service in separation. krsnotkirtana-gana-nartana-parau premamrtambho-nidhi - looking everywhere in Vrindavana, where have they gone.. also not only Vrindavana "He may be a sannyasi, or he may be a grhastha. It doesnt matter. Because he is absorbed in the thought of Nitai-Gaura." So narottama mage tanra sanga: "Narottama is always desiring to associate with such person." Grhe va banete thake, ha gauranga bole dake, narottama mage tanra sanga.

last comments deleted by admin. please stick to the question or start another one with the desired subject

A nice description on how to become and who is a pure devotee: SP:

The senses dictating, "Do this, do that, do that," and you have to become so strong that youll rightly reply, "No, this is not." Then gosvami. This is gosvami. And that grhamedhi, grhastha-appearing like the same. But grhastha means no dictation of the sense. Then you become gosvami. Then, as Narottama dasa Thakura says, grhe va banete thake ha gauranga bole dake. Ha gauranga, "Always chanting Nitai-Gaura, and thinking of Nitai-Gaura," such person, Narottama dasa Thakura says... Grhe va... "He may be a sannyasi, or he may be a grhastha. It doesnt matter. Because he is absorbed in the thought of Nitai-Gaura." So narottama mage tanra sanga: "Narottama is always desiring to associate with such person." Grhe va banete thake, ha gauranga bole dake, narottama mage tanra sanga. Narottama is always desiring the society of such person. Krsnotkirtana-gana-nartana-parau premamrtambho-nidhi dhiradhira-jana-priyau.

Yes. By reading Srila Prabhupadas books and six goswamis books, and by the mercy of Sri Sri Radha-Krishna, sencere person eager to meet a pure devotee will meet him/her.

Pure devotees are not necessarily preachers,with important positions:completely absorbed in the service of the Lord,they can lead a very simple life or even hide form the crowd...but deep inside,they experience samadhi!
Showing too much devotion ....indicates a thief!

In my view your long comment only serves to cement what is already there: api cet suduracaro for elite, eye for eye law for grassroots devotees.

This misunderstanding is present throughout ISKCON. The application of philosophy should be in accordance to our real level of advancement and understanding.
For example, once a devotee asked Srila Prabhupada if we should eat the maha prasadam that is rotten, as the scriptures say it is transcendental.
Srila Prabhupada answered that the six Gosvamis could do it, but if you do it, you will get sick.

Another misunderstanding that has caused great havoc is mixing your personal point of view that could be so transcendental as to pardon the most heinous acts from a devotee, with the actions that externally we should take to prevent the society from degrading. The thing is that if we allow a child molester give class in the vysasana, the majority of people which have not that transcendental vision will be misguided or just driven away.

I always wonder how much transcendental and pardoning we would be if it was ourselves or OUR own child the ones being molested.

I know devotees who are not dependant on the gbc, i.e they are living in karmi communities , they are unwilling to surrender to gbc because they do not appear to be pure.

dered saintly because he is properly situated in his determination.

He quickly becomes righteous and attains lasting peace. O son of Kunti, declare it boldly that My devotee never perishes.

Srila Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakura comments on these verses as follows:

One might ask, '93But if someone is corrupted by such bad behavior, how can he be a sadhu?'94

This is answered: '93He should be considered as such and thought of as a sadhu.'94 '93He should be considered'94 is an injunctive statement. If this injunction is disobeyed, there will be unfavorable consequences. In other words, '93The evidence for the truth of this is that it is simply My command.'94

'93Well,'94 someone might say, '93one may be considered a sadhu partially, to the extent that he is worshiping You, but to the extent that he is usurping other men'92s wives and property, he is not to be considered a sadhu.'94

This is answered by the word eva, only: '93He should only be considered a sadhu, in all ways, completely.'94

We should never view him as not a sadhu. His determination is completely fixed: '93I may go to hell or obtain an animal birth because of my unavoidable sinful reactions, but I will never give up my exclusive worship of Sri Krsna.'94 Such determination is praiseworthy.

'93But,'94 one might ask, '93why do You accept the worship of such an irreligious person? Why do You consume the food and drink offered by one whose heart is contaminated by lust, anger, and other faults?'94

In response the Lord says, '93He quickly becomes religious.'94 This is not expressed as '93He is going to quickly become'94 or '93He will soon achieve peace.'94 Rather, the present tense is used: '93he becomes'94 and '93he attains.'94

The Lord continues, '93This means that immediately after he commits impiety, he remembers Me and feels remorse. He thus quickly becomes religious. He thinks, '91Alas! Alas! There is no person more fallen than me. I defile the reputation of the community of devotees. Damn me!'92 Again and again feeling remorse like this, he achieves complete peace and detachment.'94

'93Well,'94 one may say, '93if he actually becomes religious, there can be no argument about such a person. But what about a devotee whose behavior is wicked and who fails to give up his bad behavior throughout his whole life? What can be said about him?'94

Always affectionate to His devotees, the Lord responds to this doubt with complete confidence and with some anger, in the words beginning kaunteya: '93My devotee never perishes. Even when he dies, he never falls down.'94

ccd: your guess that bad things cannot occur to pure devotee is forgetting all the trials the Pandavas had to endure, Prahlada Maharajs father wanting to kill him, beating of Haridas Thakur in marketplaces, etc, etc
I will start a question on that now. Krishnas ways can be puzzling sometimes.

This I find now in CC, Madhya. 15.106, purport -
... "In other worlds, any devotee who believes that the holy name of the Lord is identical of the Lord is a pure devotee, even thought he may be in the neophyte stage. By his assosiation, others may also become Vaishanavas."

Thank you Sitapati. You gave the answer to something I have been unclear about. This is the second quote of pure devotion I get today, and both appears to say that you reach pure devotion at the stage of prema. Your quote explains how the word "pure devotee" often is used in a wider sense.

If we may begin to start naming names, i would like to start with my Guru Maharaja.....:-)