Pariprashnena — Q&A Archive

First, the no-sex is only for sannyasis and brahmacaries. Brahmacari is usually a temporary vow anyway.
Our philosophy is not about renunciation, but about dovetailing ones propensities in service. So, a grhasta can have dozens of children, provided he maintains them nicely and gives them KC.
The no-sex paranoia is due to our (and particularly some of the leaders) judeo-christian upbringing taking all sex-life as sinful.
Some people are able to renounce sex-life for hidden agendas of power, so the hardest thing is to keep oneself vaishnava dasanudasa.
THAT is a hard vow.

the vow is "no illicit sex," which comes quite close to no sex at all. as for the why, srila prabhupada explains that quite frequently in his books, conversations, and letters.

And of course there is the aspect of subtle sex....thinking, feeling and willing etc.

It seems subtle sex manifests itself in many different ways in our society...a propensity to lord it over others, attachment to name, fame and adoration etc. which I believe falls under the category of the mode of Passion.

Maybe if those who are physically controlling their sexual desires and maintaining a vow, should also consider what is going on in their minds and try to address subtle sex life and prevent a possible future falldown.

A tough call in the age of Kali!!

it is possible to interchange married life for sannyasi life with lots of comforts and adoration. For some individuals could be even better, because of their dysfunctional mind impeding them to do a "normal" life. When I see a sannyasi with those symptoms I simply pity their gross subtle sex-life. Beware.

Why? Because higher realisations do not come before the great grip of maya in the form of desire for sex-life is practically overcome. This is not a rule, it is just the way it is.

If we examine sexual intercourse more closely, we can see that it does not make much sense, does not give much to the individual, except for children. For what do we need sex? The only thing it brings is deeper entanglement into the material nature.

Becoming a devotee means a revolution, the beginning to say no to material involvement, and the big battle is about sex desire. It is not even about sex itself, it is about the desire for sex.

That day a devotee finds him/herself mostly freed from sex desire, it is like waking up from a dream and wondering - what was I doing? What got into me to do that? I must have been under a spell to do that.

If a devotee want to advance on the bhakti ladder, sex desire is a kind of enemy that must be defeated. So therefore it is not strange that Prabhupada demanded that his disciples start that fight already from the beginning. There is no solid taste for Krishna before the major attractions to the material world are severed, and the biggest of them all is represented by sex desire.

It is not as hard as it seems either. It is just like an alcoholic stopping to drink. He has to say NO. No small drink on the side, he has to stop completely. Not even think about it. Prabhupadas process was just that. To stop completely. If an alcoholic can, why cant a devotee? Finally as the years are passing the memory fades, and the pushings of the body diminishes, when that thing has become distance enough, one find oneself having a taste for Krishna instead. And when that happens sex desire has a rival and has no chance anymore. When real taste for Krishna awakens, the other attachments just melt away quite rapidly.

This is not a theory. Such persons walk on earth, in the lineage of Prabhupada. Any devotee can do it.
The only question is to ourselves - Do I want to become one of them? A person who walks with a blissful smile on his/her face, always in thoughts of Krishna; who is Krishna conscious.

Prishni dasi:
It is easier for women to do what you propose, apparently generally you are less into gross sex life, but your problem is more of subtle attachment.
IMHO this is a nice presentation in the usual line, but offers little help for the real problem: how to deal with it. Just "forgetting" does not usually work. Trying to jump to become without really being is precisely the root cause of our problems. Advice is given in 12th Canto of SB, comparing sense gratification to taming a wild horse. Sometimes you let go, sometimes you pull the reins hard until the job is done.

Sex desire have like two components. The first is the biological drive of the body. The other is the subtle one. The biological urge we cant do very much about, but the desire to enjoy material nature, which translates into sex drive, and finally gives way to surrender of the urges of the body, we can. "Spiritual life" means to handle the urges of the body, and they are not only sex drive, but many others. We have to deal with them on a higher level. If the soul does not desire, the bodily urges looses their meaning. We have to control ourselves with our intelligence, and with the help of knowledge and understanding.

To desire sex enjoyment, while at the same time trying to follow celibacy, will fail, and a falldown is just a matter of time. We combat the attraction of the bodily urges by knowledge, and force of will.

If we have sex urge, we can get two cats. One male and one female. The we can observe how they are cozy together, and go around in their cat life. But then suddenly, at a particular time of the year, they completely change their behaviour. The she-cat becomes a sexual ball of fur, and does everything to attract the he-cat. I think the he-cat can have sex at any time of the year, but it is not always biologically possible. But when the time for the she-cat to be in heat comes, he goes completly crazy, and at that time he thinks about nothing but sex. This goes on until they have their union. Probably many times, since cats appears to be able to have sex a lot when it is the time.

After all this, the she-cat gets pregnant, and her behaviour changes completely. She is slowly turning into a mother. And if it is her first time, at the time of birth, she will be terrified, and have no idea what is going on. But nature is working, and she get her kittens. If it is her first time, she might not know what to do about it, but if she get help from a more experienced cat-mother or a human, she learns.

As a cat-mother with kittens, she is different again. Her behaviour is clearly determined by her biological cycles, and the soul in the cat is mainly just enjoying the fun or terror of the situation with not much more to say about it.

After some time, when the kittens have grown up, the cat mother is back to her normal self again.

Observing such things, and knowing well that the spirit soul in the cat, and the spirit soul now occupying this human body, is of the same character. We are of the same nature, it is just the body we occupy that differs. By observing how nature is playing around with the sex drive of the cat, we can also understand how nature is playing around with our own sex desire. That it is just biology. That it is not the spirit soul who does it, but the soul is just experiencing it. We think it is pleasure, but actually how can it be?

The same thing with having two dogs, one male one female.

For me, when I observed dogs having sex, and cats having sex, I got quite some realisation what sex desire is all about. We just need to understand that animals are not different from us. We are also animals, in the same way as they are, only that we are monkeys, we have monkey bodies.
I was thinking if I want to be so controlled, like a slave, of the biological urges, like my cats and dogs? What kind of spiritual freedom is that? I, at least, wanted to rebell towards such a cruel master, and do my own things. And therefore celibacy turns into an act of rebellion, to win over material nature, who is trying to entrap us.

So if I feel sexual urges, I know that it is the body, and I just ignore it. What differs is my motivation. It is not that I subtle desire sex, but is trying to abstain. I subtly dont want to have sex, to be captured by the slave driver of the material energy, and the bodily urges just becomes a distraction and not a source of enjoyment.

IMHO you are advocating same thing: "forget it altogether" appealing to the higher spiritual nature. We all know the "no sex goal", but that doesnt translate into "we are against sex".
Our philosophy does not say exactly that. It says dovetail in Krishna consciousness. That is why Srila Bhaktisiddhanta said he was prepared to have sex thousands of times if he could beget Krishna conscious children.
So, your "solution" is the same that has failed us for almost 40 years.
Consider the young couple just married, would not be more sane to tell them you can beget Krishna conscious children and that will be far more agreeable and down to earth.
If one follows vaishnava regulations such as japa etc... and the children come, etc, the sex desire will diminish in a more gradual and logical way.
Other options are just hope against hope, a source of anxiety and probably the main reason of the high rate divorce in our movement.

As far as I remember from what I heard in ISKCON, it is that a majority cannot keep their celibacy. That is what has failed for 40 years. To allow sex would not change anything, but just mean that even more would fail.

There is just no question of serious spiritual advancement before the sex attachment is practically gone.
This is not a silly rule, but just an observation of everyone who have reached that point.
You can believe it or not, but if you have not acquired deep taste and ecstatic feelings for Krishna, you know why.

Ecstatic feelings for Krishna? Congratulations for being there.The majority of us are struggling in the sadhana stage.
You can follow your own exalted program, but think a bit about the rest of us.
Allowing sex? You cannot rule the sex life of grownups. Let people take their decisions.
Again, it is not black and white as some people have insisted for years. It is a question of gradual advancement via regulations, gradually giving up sense gratification.
My point is that your "preaching" just gets to the point of the dichotomy demon or pure devotee. Almost 40 years have been enough of that. Thank you.

I wholeheartedly agree with the terms "nearly impossible" and "very hard" in regards to no sex life..... when preformed mosly in tamo guna or raja/tamo guna
Just that these modes by their very nature will discourage favorable service to Guru and Krsna (and any decent material relief!! :-)
However an advancing devotee suffering some really tamasic reactions that make it difficult to preform nice service one may take some solace in the fact that Krsna never gives any test we can not pass.

What could the explanation be in regards to this because...... if one would make some Vrata there is no real room for excuse even materially speaking right??

I know this is fitting for another post BUT????
as far as one is initiated as second or third class in the Varnashrama system would there be facility for "rule slacking"???
Hare Krsna

Prisni dasi" said:"This is not a theory. Such persons walk on earth, in the lineage of Prabhupada. Any devotee can do it."

The control of sex desire can only be explained by those who have fully or near fully mastered the science:a drunkard cannot preach to others:do not drink!
If the sincere devotee follows his vows as nicely as possible[in spite of accidental falldowns],he will sooner or later be able to control his bodily urges,and this starts with the tongue.By the way a devotee eats,one can judge how advanced he is in controlling the other senses.
The control of sex desire doesnt mean the absence of pleasure:on the contrary,pleasure is increased,but on the subtle platform,and the pure devotee experience many different symptoms of bliss:crying,laughing etc as described in the Nectar of Devotion.
http://nectarofdevotion.com/48/en

[quote][cite] mishra:[/cite]If one follows vaishnava regulations such as japa etc... and the children come, etc, the sex desire will diminish in a more gradual and logical way.[/quote]

This is a good point...without good quality sadhana there isnt much hope of achieving true celibacy (no attraction for sex in the mind) and we will remain on the bodily platform....IMHO it all starts with the bead bag.

It may be nearly impossible but it is still necessary for spiritual life, even for good health. I find the following things helpful:
- determination
- avoid eating grains prepared by non-devotees
- dont over-eat (follow SPs 50% rule) and avoid eating too much sweet or hot spices
- observe a strict diet of Krsna prasada
- engage physical energy in Deitys service
- substantial physical exercise (many professional sportsmen stay separate from their wife during the days before a match)
- avoid association with non-devotees
- associate with devotees (physically)
- hear Krsna katha
- worship of Tulasi
- chant miniumum 16 rounds daily

No illicit sex = means outside of marriage celibate monks live in Gurukula marry at 25 yr age and only with gurus consent and achieved renounced mentality

Its interesting to note that when SP was asked should a devotee be considered a devotee if he does not follow the 4rules, he did not say he should not, he said: "He is not even a gentlemen", :-) meaning he broke the vow.. Go figure..

BTW there were never 4 reg princ vows during regular diksa before Srila Prabhupada

According to my own humble experience:
To watch the mind, not allowing it to dwell on sexual objects and activities in any ways, combined with chanting and reading and not overeating in the evening is the best way to stay celibate. In this way its even quite possible to avoid (or minimize)nocturnal discharges.

[quote][cite] jimmycle:[/cite]No illicit sex = means outside of marriage celibate monks live in Gurukula marry at 25 yr age and only with gurus consent and achieved renounced mentality[/quote]
According to Srila Prabhupadas instructions,illcit sex means sexual activities for pleasures sake,and not only for procreation for married vaisnava couples.When they desire to have a baby,they have sex,once a month-during fertile period-after chanting 50 rounds of japa,and this will guarantee the birth of a special soul for the couple.Normal sexual activities,as karmis do,depletes spiritual life,create attachment to this material world,specially to the wife,and at death may think only of the wife....and be reborn a woman-in case of a man,and a man,in case of a woman.
Such grhasta couple are qualified to preach,and take disciples,as they control their senses.Those who cant control shouldnt preach something they cant practice!
Sannyasis shouldnt associate at all with women...

marriage is for everyone who reaches 25 age. Renounciation, if so chooses to remain bramachari, means devoting time towards path of enlightment. When the stage of menapause, usually 50 age ( a children are grown-up) it becomes time to take vanaprestha - divorce? Helping each other to grow spiritually?

Jayaradhe:
<<Those who cant control shouldnt preach something they cant practice! >>

I wouldnt say they shouldnt preach. They shouldnt take disciples, but they can preach as long as they remain humble and honest about their position.

Hare Krishna.

I would have to disagree that disdain for mundane sexuality, both in its licit and illicit forms, is only a feature of the Judaeo-Christian theology. Its very much a part of the Vedic nivrtti path too. Many verses in scriptures such as the Srimad Bhagavatam, the songs of the Vaishnava Acharyas and other works by them preaching vairagya, present the same. This claim that its a part only of the former is a recent one by those who want a more lax standard of Vedic knowledge and who somehow get back to their perverted version of Tantra, etc. to support their own sexually active lifestyles within marriage or outside of it.

Its necessary to give up mundane sexuality which is the strongest binding force for bodily identification, either gradually or right away, depending on ones own psychological disposition. That a gradual path is given via marriage and procreation does not give sex an open field in the name of love, warmth and all the other things modern psychologists and counsellors and people in general associate it with via books and the visual media. A certain avenue is given but thats about it because simply put, weve got other more urgent things to do like working at going back to Godhead. And even such sexuality beyond a certain licence has to be given up gradually, hence the order of 4 ashramas. So, in no way is there any ultimate glorification of sexuality, both in its licit and illicit features, as the ultimate goal or aid to such a goal. Its just a bodily itch which is accepted and facilitated in a very careful and regulated albeit temporary manner. The grhastha is expected to be finished with it once the licence is had and the necessary work of procreation completed. It may sound painful to many because thats the only sense of pleasure thats promoted to be directly perceivable and obtainable in todays society but theres another domain which is there for which we are not working hard enough for and if this is done, then the rest will flow automatically. There is a deliberate attempt to pretend that spirituality does not exist or that if it does, its only secondary and not of the utmost important. Whats worse is the falsity of some presentations that the enjoyment of matter aids the progress of the spirit. This is what is called Tattvabhrama - confusion with regards to truth and untruth and mixing the both together to provide a cocktail that appeals to people who wish to enjoy materially and yet present themselves as spiritually advanced.

That some people wish to use it to present themselves as powerful or special and thus amass institutional power and authority does not make the tenet wrong. They are wrongly applying a correct tenet, thats all. But two wrongs do not make one right. Spiritual principles are to be adhered to for ones own self-purification, not self-righteousness and condemning others. But, the principle of weakness and the consequence of sexual attachment has to be accepted and reflected upon. Citing institutional anomalies based on misapplication will not protect us from the consequences of not following a scriptural tenet that is directed at personal spiritual development.

Srila Prabhupada did point out the possibilities of institutional abuse in his purports but never did he link these to the insistence on sex being bad for spiritual growth. That exists as a stand-alone spiritual conclusion, whether anything else happens or otherwise.

My 2 cents worth.

Your servant,
jai

I once heard that Srila Prabhupada said that whoever is able to follow the four regs in kali yuga is a saint, so by staying in ISKCON and trying and praying to Krishna we will get the necessary purification we need to be able to go back to Godhead by the end of these lifetimes.