Pariprashnena — Q&A Archive

I was in a class when my guru maharaja said that those jivas who have fallen from the tatastha shakti region were never with Krishna in the spiritual world. The jiva never falls from that realm, the spiritual world. We fell from the tatstha shakti region to the material world. We were never with Krishna. If I am getting this right. The tatastha shakti region is the marginal potency. But then I thought we are the marginal potency so I was confused about this later on.
In any case he said the same thing Srila Prabhupada said, it doesnt really matter how we got here, now we have to get out. A devotee said that Srila Prabhupada said something about an arrow. If you go to a doctor after being shot with an arrow the thing the doctor will do is try to remove the arrow. He wont just spend all his time trying to figure out who shot the arrow, he will just remove it.

On dandavats.com Bhakta Rod says we are still with Krishna playing with Him in goloka and our material life is just a dream.[br]
http://www.dandavats.com/?p=4275

When I joined ISKCON they told us a story where we are like a cowherd boy who has gone to get some water for Krishna and looked into the water and saw his own reflection and thinks, "I look like Krishna. I am beautiful." but then he shakes his head and says no, I am not like Krishna.

During that brief time he looked into the stream or lake of water his whole material existence has passed, and the only thing that remains of his journey into the material world is the subtle memory that things were not so good down here and that is what keeps him from ever falling down again.

I dont know if anyone has this story on Vedabase or anything but I have heard it from different devotees across the country.

Lets start with the ABCs of spiritual life, the Bhagavad-gita.

In the Gita there are at least 4 verses directly stating no one leaves the spiritual world. It doesnt get any simpler than that. Need more? There are a further at least 9 verses that indirectly support no one leaving the spiritual world. Do your research pandits!!! Anyone can clearly and firmly prove this conclusion on the strength of sastra, whereas the opposing view can hardly be established at all. If its good enough for Arjuna, its good enough for me.

It may give me a warm fuzzy feeling to think I was once a cowherd boy and about to be again, but this view has no grounding in reality, or support in sastra.

I recently heard the current GBC Chairman say that we didnt fall. Does that mean the GBC will invite Kundali dasa back to Iskcon or at least apologize to him after he was ostracized for preaching the same?

Thanks.

does BG say "once you go you never return or something"?

My understanding is the Bhakti Yoga is meant for re-establishing our relationship with Krsna...which seems to imply that we did indeed have a relationship with Krsna and that Srila Prabhupada came to the west to remind us that we have forgotten this relationship.

In any case, as stated previously...the main thing is not how we got here, because we are here now....it is that we know how to effectively get back to Krsna in the spiritual realm.

Krsna is the source of everything including all contradictions that appear in our mind due to lack of possibility to understand eternal tattvas.

All contradictory qualities and questions are resolved in Him personally. Of course even if you try to understand what means eternal you will see that the question does not make sense because there is no beginning of eternal time, who is Krsna, and due to different nature of time in the world that is beyond trigunamaya

Since Dandavats.com may not publish my comment:

We are supposed to be awakening our dormant love of God. If we are in Goloka now then our love of God is awake and we just have to remember it. This post has an interesting idea, but not sound in my opinion.

Quoting Jaiva Dharma about time/space being inconceivable does not support any siddhanta you are proposing. Why dont we quote Jaiva Dharma about the position of the nitya-baddha soul? There are many sections which do not support the proposition being suggested here.

A jiva is a spark of the eternal consciousness. A jiva is first situated on the line of demarcation between the material world and the spiritual world. There those jivas who do not forget their relation with Krsna derive the power of consciousness and are drawn into the spiritual world-they come in eternal touch with Krsna and enjoy beatitude arising from the worship of Krsna. And those who forget Krsna and give themselves up to mayas enjoyments, mayawith her own force draws them into herself. It is from that very moment that we fall into the misery of this world. (Jaiva Dharma, chapter 7, page 95-96)

rasa108: Yes, we are meant to reestablish. But if you simply think about the word dormant it is very interesting. I have also been reading for years but the word struck me. If it is dormant, then for how long has it been dormant? Was it awake then made dormant at some point in time?
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We are conditioned since time immemorial:[br]
[b]Avidya is the name for the forgetfulness of souls essential nature that I am Krsnas servant. This avidya did not commence within the course of the mundane time. That root of karma of the jiva arose when he was at the tatastha position. As such, the beginning of karma is not to be traced within mundane time, and, on that account karma is beginningless. (Jaiva Dharma, page 234)[/b]
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So how was our krishna consciousness ever active? Dormant since time immemorial.
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I apologize if people are sick of such discussions, but I find it very interesting. I did a search on Vedabase about "dormant" and Prabhupada VERY frequently uses it to describe "dormant Love of Godhead" and "dormant relationship with God"
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Whenever we wake up in the morning we are reawakening because we were once awake, but I think reawakening our love of God is slightly different. Nitya-siddha krishna prema, the nature of love of god is inherent in our souls, but that doesnt mean we had it active at a point.

All glories to Jaiva Dharma, but how about sticking with the ABCs of spiritual life? Keep it simple and it will be easy to understand. For example, verse 15.16, "There are two classes of beings, the fallible and the infallible. In the material world every living entity is fallible, and in the spiritual world every living entity is called infallible." It doesnt get more simple than that.

Please see verses below. These are 9 direct verses supporting the conclusion that you dont leave the spiritual world. I have a further 11 verses showing how Krsna protects his devotees from being lost. So, 9 direct verses and 11 indirect verses and thats only from the Gita!! (I can post them all if anyone is interested). How anyone could be confused on this issue is beyond me.

Some could argue that "These verses only say once you get there you never leave, not we never leave," however this argument is equivalent to saying "Those who have been to jail and got out can never again return to jail," which is just illogical.

Gita Verses

8.15
After attaining Me, the great souls, who are yog'e9s in devotion, never return to this temporary world, which is full of miseries, because they have attained the highest perfection.

8.16
From the highest planet in the material world down to the lowest, all are places of misery wherein repeated birth and death take place. But one who attains to My abode, O son of Kunt'e9, never takes birth again.

8.21
That which the Ved'e4ntists describe as unmanifest and infallible, that which is known as the supreme destination, that place from which, having attained it, one never returns'97that is My supreme abode.

8.26
According to Vedic opinion, there are two ways of passing from this world'97one in light and one in darkness. When one passes in light, he does not come back; but when one passes in darkness, he returns.

14.2
By becoming fixed in this knowledge, one can attain to the transcendental nature like My own. Thus established, one is not born at the time of creation or disturbed at the time of dissolution.

15.4
Thereafter, one must seek that place from which, having gone, one never returns, and there surrender to that Supreme Personality of Godhead from whom everything began and from whom everything has extended since time immemorial.

15.6
That supreme abode of Mine is not illumined by the sun or moon, nor by fire or electricity. Those who reach it never return to this material world.

15.16
There are two classes of beings, the fallible and the infallible. In the material world every living entity is fallible, and in the spiritual world every living entity is called infallible.

Thanks.
gita sugita kartavya
kim anyaih shastra vistaraih
ya svyam padama nabhaayasa
mukha padmad vinih srita
This Gita which has come out of the lotus-like face of the Lord (He who has the lotus in His navel) and which is so melodious, should be studied. There is no need to study any other scriptures in detail. (Gita-mahatmya 4)

My understanding of dormant means that our love for Krsna is not active at the moment...but will become active once again. For something to be dormant, it must have been active in the first place:

dormant: marked by a suspension of activity: as a : temporarily devoid of external activity b : temporarily in abeyance yet capable of being activated

the definition of the word seems to convey this

Bhakta Rod has given quite a compendium of quotes. It seems straightforward enough, but in order to convolute things I had to put my comments, lets see if Dandavats.com publishes them:

Bhakta Rod, your points seem to be a valid way of understanding Shrila Prabhupadas teachings and we should leave it at that. The GBC has an unfortunate history of trying to enforce a particular point of view on this issue when Prabhupada says in the same letter you quoted: "Brahma-sayujya and Krishna lila'97both may be possible." He makes the point that we are always in Krishna lila, even now. So even if the Jiva has origin in brahmajyoti, that is also Krishnas lila, that should be clear.

Your point is interesting that since the jivas spiritual body is eternally with Krishna prema how could it not be with Krishna.

As a point of Vaishnava etiquette I do not think we should consider other Gaudiya Vaishnava traditions and learned acharyas to "foolishly misled others" There are also many exalted disciples of Shrila Prabhupada who are in a position of guru to us and who clearly went back to Godhead who may not agree with your interpretation. Not to mention other Gaudiya Vaishnava acharyas even more senior. Maintaining some Vaishnava etiquette will help us to understand these subtle spiritual subject matters which mere exercises in logic will not allow us to attain.

Quotes are below, primarily from Shrila Prabhupadas purports:

Vaishnava Siddhanta Mala - Bhaktivinod Thakur

QUESTION: Where do the nitya-baddha, baddha-mukta and nitya-mukta souls reside?
ANSWER: The nitya-baddha and baddha-mukta souls reside in the material world. The nitya-mukta souls reside in the spiritual world, Vaikuntha (the place of no anxiety).

According to Visnu Purana, Bhagavad-gita and all other Vedic literatures, the living entities are generated from the tatastha energy of the Lord. (Bhag. 3.7.9, purport)

The conclusion is that the origin of all life is the bodily effulgence of the Supreme Personality of Godhead. This is confirmed in Brahma-samhita: yasya prabha prabhavato jagad-ananda-koti. (Bhag. 4.30.5, purport)

The all-pervading feature of the Lord which exists in all circumstances of waking and sleeping as well as in potential states and from which the jiva-sakti (living force) is generated as both conditioned and liberated souls-is known as Brahman. (Isopanisad, Text 16, purport)

As we have learned from previous mantras, the brahmajyoti emanating from the transcendental body of the Lord is full of spiritual sparks that are individual entities with the full sense of existence. Sometimes these living entities want to enjoy their senses, and therefore they are placed in the material world to become false lords under the dictation of the senses. (Isopanisad, Text 17, purport)

As spiritual sparks of the beams emanating from the transcendental body of the Lord, we are all permanently related with Him and equal to Him in quality. (C.C. Madhya-lila 5.22)

What does it matter...just try to go back to Godhead by the process that Srila Prabhupada has given us.

Hmm what does it matter? Here is a devotee with a question. It is not my question, something I came across in an email forum. And if it didnt matter should we tell the GBC to revoke their 200 page book OOP. In the GBC past it was thought important enough by some to be used to harass devotees about. Doesnt it seem strange to you that Prabhupadas quotes are being used to advance a position that is NEW in the history of Gaudiya Vaishnavism? Or since we are ISKCON devotees that is ok? We can freely and righteously break free with a new perspective? Anyway I dont think it is Prabhupadas contribution to give something new.

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All glories to Srila Prabhupad!
All glories to Srila Gurudev!

Pamho unto you all devotees!

It is said there is no chance falling from the abode of
Supreme Lord after reaching there but now we are suffering here for the
reason that we fall down from there because of the envy we had with the
Lord. this seems to be contradictory, KIndly explain me.

Trying to be the servant of Hari Guru Vaisnavas
sree lakshmi dd.