Pariprashnena — Q&A Archive

Good article, advocating a lesser evil. A natural question therefore is - when is a devotee ready for diksa? Qualified jyotish should be able to help. It can also prevent incompatible marriages and determine which asram a devotee should assume. In ISKCON its been underused in the name of transcendence to the detriment of all, imho.

I think that to discuss this issue with credibility it is necessary to read, understand, and reference Matsyavatara Prabhus seminal article "Family Matters". It is an intelligent, well thought out and presented consideration of the various factors involved in this issue, and it is a reference point within our contemporary philosophical tradition.

You can read it here: http://namahatta.org/nh2/index.php?q=en/node/215

Sex is a bodily urge, like drinking, eating or sleeping. To try to prematurely "cut" your bodily needs can and will cause havoc as we have seen with so many examples of hardliners going crazy, molesting little children or just running or juggling with therapists.

Imho vaishnava philosophy accommodates sex regulation, while having "no-sex at all" as the goal.

The truth is only a very small percentage of grhastas can follow the super strict standard and many in the renounced order have problems with masturbation, etc.

These days, we can accommodate a sannyasi trip down on sex life and then we condemn any sex by a newly married couple in their 20s.

The highest standard of course is NO SEX AT ALL; FORGET IT, but vaishnava philosophy gives regulations like sex only for children (small percentage of happy fellows grhasta brahmacari) or sex only within marriage (the rest of the world).

No doubt that the more sex life more you are thrown in the bodily concept of life, but cutting sex life without being naturally equipped to do so, can mean deep psychological problems. It is a matter of balance.

My advice is take all naturally from where you stand and the chanting, prasadam, books, etc will slowly but surely get us out of the sex liking in a gradual process.

Be who you are, accept your limitations and pray to Krishna for help. One step at a time.

Pure devotional service is indeed very rare:what is actually disturbing is when someone has to PROMISE such vow,knowing very well that its nearly impossible!Maybe it should be "Ill do my best?"
At the beginning,Srila Prabhupada never intended to have women living in the ashram,together with men,and this co-existence proved to be quite like fire and butter together!
In India,there is a much healthier mood in ashram,where women are not allowed to stay! I dont know if homosexuality reigns there....but for sincere truth seekers,its definitely much healthier.
Though some devotees have read about the power of kundalini,how sexual energy can be sublimated to spiritual energy by different means,it is also ,maybe, a good thing to have some study of such energy,which can turn the brahmcari into a powerful student,able to remember slokas easily and be very strong!Waste of seminal fluid is disastrous for spiritual advancement,but only a few can master such yoga!Gurukulis are known to have deviated into the opposite way,by experiencing everything that Maya offers,as they could see that their parents or gurus were behaving as hypocrites...
But the sastras have always said:pure devotees are rare gems!The ones able to dominate the dragon-of sex- are those qualified to make disciples,as the Nectar of Instruction reveals.

Dear Mishra, I think u have common sense and devotion! I have seen too many devotees leaving due to some small sex desire and some problem connected with it. I think one should not throw away the baby with the bathing water...

I think the most important thing in life, whether one is a so called devotee or not, is to be honest to oneself and to others.

I have seen the fanaticism spiritual life too often, including in myself. But fanaticism is not the solution. One has to find a healthy balance in life. People who were most fanatic fell downward with great speed whereas others could keep balance in dangerous situations.

It is good to know what is right and what is wrong, one has to be patient, read the shastra, follow the sadhana, and thereby gain spiritual strength and inside. I think to much talking on this subject, and looking down to some people or even yourself will not help much. Everyone has to find out for himself individually the way, since we are all individuals, and not a flock of beings...

Having no sex desire is a symptom of advancement. Sex desire practically disappear at a certain stage of advancement. Normally we should not try to imitate more advanced devotees, but in this instance it is good to do it.

If you never had sex, it appears to be much easier to abstain, but I guess not so many fall into that category.

If you have a material desire, and feel denied it, you can get quite frustrated, and it can hamper spiritual progress. It can even cause rebirth. So the process is to get enlightened by knowledge, and then give oneself a certain allowance to try out what we desire, so to get the realisation that it is not what we think, and actually is not particularly enjoyable. This is a quite delicate process, but it is the difference between taking drugs to cure a disease and taking drugs because you are an addict.

Better to have three regulative principles and follow them strictly, than having four and breaking one all the time. I think that is the idea of the three regulative principles idea. To make a vow, and then break it, is a bad thing that makes you weaker. To have feelings of guilt is not good for spiritual progress either.

Bhagavad-guc0u299 tu257 As It Is 2.59

visu803 ayu257 vinivartante
niru257 hu257 rasya dehinahu803
rasa-varjau109 u769 raso py asya
parau109 u769 dru803 su803 tu803 vu257 nivartate

SYNONYMS

visu803 ayu257 hu803 '97 objects for sense enjoyment; vinivartante '97 are practiced to be refrained from; niru257 hu257 rasya '97 by negative restrictions; dehinahu803 '97 for the embodied; rasa-varjam '97 giving up the taste; rasahu803 '97 sense of enjoyment; api '97 although there is; asya '97 his; param '97 far superior things; dru803 su803 tu803 vu257 '97 by experiencing; nivartate '97 he ceases from.

TRANSLATION

The embodied soul may be restricted from sense enjoyment, though the taste for sense objects remains. But, ceasing such engagements by experiencing a higher taste, he is fixed in consciousness.

PURPORT

Unless one is transcendentally situated, it is not possible to cease from sense enjoyment. The process of restriction from sense enjoyment by rules and regulations is something like restricting a diseased person from certain types of eatables. The patient, however, neither likes such restrictions nor loses his taste for eatables. Similarly, sense restriction by some spiritual process like asu803 tu803 u257 u324 ga-yoga, in the matter of yama, niyama, u257 sana, pru257 nu803 u257 yu257 ma, pratyu257 hu257 ra, dhu257 ranu803 u257 , dhyu257 na, etc., is recommended for less intelligent persons who have no better knowledge. But one who has tasted the beauty of the Supreme Lord Kru803 su803 nu803 a, in the course of his advancement in Kru803 su803 nu803 a consciousness, no longer has a taste for dead, material things. Therefore, restrictions are there for the less intelligent neophytes in the spiritual advancement of life, but such restrictions are only good until one actually has a taste for Kru803 su803 nu803 a consciousness. When one is actually Kru803 su803 nu803 a conscious, he automatically loses his taste for pale things.

The question is "Why queue up for initiation,where one have to promise such vow.....when deep inside,one is certain he/she will not be able to keep it?
the worst is to pretend,under the clothes of devotees,that one is in a saintly mood,when in bed hes doing all nonsense!
And the guru who is mass initiating[thousands],without knowing his disciples,strong brahmacaris,how can he accept this reality: sex vow is very difficult!

related question:
http://www.pariprashnena.com/discussion/295/why-do-devotees-vow-the-nearly-impossible-vow-of-nosex-life-at-initiations

Health: Does the no sex principle turn one into a frustrated person?

Yes, if he maintains desires for sexual activities, the sex urges will manifest. If he than suppresses these urges, he will become frustrated.

No, if he first controls his mind, not desiring sexual activities, (almost) no urges for sexual activities will manifest. Than there is no need to suppress (much). Than there will be no (much) frustration either.

[quote][cite] Gaurangaliladas:[/cite]The question is "Why queue up for initiation,where one have to promise such vow.....when deep inside, one is certain he/she will not be able to keep it? the worst is to pretend,under the clothes of devotees,that one is in a saintly mood, when in bed hes doing all nonsense![/quote]

Does that mean we never take initiation? How can you be certain of a falldown or not?...It seems to me it comes down to this simple fact...Get the higher taste from quality sadhana, or suffer with the lower taste and be frustrated with material desires.

The problem is to promise!
As promise means:from now on,Ill have no sex,except for procreation!
Such extremism,if a sincere survey is carried out, may be the cause of serious mental disease,as the poor disciple gets feelings of guilt,when he falls into the sex trap[easy],mainly for those who choose a beautiful wife!
But hypocrisy is reigning,and I believe there are so many pretenders,playing the part of renounced sadhus,and those who have top positions,chaos has been the result,when it has been found out that they,in fact,were not capable of keeping the vow.
I believe such vow is only for a very small minority,and so there shouldnt be thousands of disciples lining up for promise,though they can honestly try to practice progressive restraint of sexual activities.

[quote][cite] Jayeradhe!:[/cite]I believe such vow is only for a very small minority, and so there shouldnt be thousands of disciples lining up for promise, though they can honestly try to practice progressive restraint of sexual activities.[/quote]

Very small majority? I dont think Srila Prabhupada intended initiation for a very small majority.

I believe the main issue is how to deal with the issue of sex desire - to avoid the lower taste by getting a higher taste (from quality sadhana) and then the attraction for illicit sex life will vanish...IMHO the answer is not to reduce initiations but to educate and enthuse devotees to practise good quality sadhana.

Initiation should be for as many as possible,as it means the beginning of spiritual life,but we shouldnt get illusionned that we can all master our senses completely in this lifetime,though it is possible for these few,depending on our understanding of this high philosophy,and our capacity for sacrificing everything for the ultimate goal.
Those who struggle with their senses shouldnt get discouraged,but there shouldnt be hyposcrisy from anyone pretending he/she is completely under control,and even take disciples when the senses are not completely mastered.

<The problem is to promise!
As promise means:from now on,Ill have no sex,except for procreation!
Such extremism,if a sincere survey is carried out, may be the cause of serious mental disease,as the poor disciple gets feelings of guilt,when he falls into the sex trap[easy],mainly for those who choose a beautiful wife!>

If this devotee had been warned repeatedly that the "Agent of Maya" is waiting for her and then bloops for whatever reason shell always feel like she has fallen from her superior position of bhakti and thus setup for failure for which living in the material world.

The way to conquer mundane sex life is constant meditation on the pastimes of Radha and Krsna in the mood of Sri Caitanya. If one just restrains the senses, without immersion in the pastimes, then that will not be successful.

[quote][cite] Rasaprema dasa:[/cite]The way to conquer mundane sex life is constant meditation on the pastimes of Radha and Krsna in the mood of Sri Caitanya. If one just restrains the senses, without immersion in the pastimes, then that will not be successful.[/quote]
For a neophyte devotee to engage himself into the highest spiritual practice is speculation:first he has to follow strict sadhana for a number of years under a bonafide spiritual master,and do service for him.Of course,it is auspicious to hear Krsnas pastimes,but sadhana mus be present,ortherwise its sahaja mentality or pretending to be an elevated vaisnava,before time!

Yes and no. We are not all on the same level. For some it is easy, for most it is very hard. It is natural to be attracted on the physical level. As with any other gross enjoyment, if senses are not engaged in serving Krishna then they will serve material energy. It is better to be honest with one self and perform sadhana in a way we are able to. As time goes on anarthas go away and taste for serving Sri Sri Radha Krishna arises and starts to flow with less and less interuption. Then unwanted things disappear from the heart and taste gets its flow, attachment for devotional service becomes stronger and material enjoyment becomes insignificant to the point where only need become some food and sleep. In regards to lila smaranam, it is one of the nine processes of devotional service and it on the same level as shravanam, kirtanam and others quoted in seventh canto of SB. It is described, though, that smaranam naturaly comes after shravanam and kirtanam, it does make sense. We listen about some person, in this case Sri Sri Radha Krishna, then we talk about Them and then naturaly think about Them. If we do not think about Sri Sri Radha Krishna we will think about material objects and keep our attachment to those. The main goal of sadhana is to become elegible to be a servent of Sri Sri Radha Krishna, and love Them. So, uninterupted sadhana of bhakti-yoga will yield a result in a few lifetimes or one, it depends on the sadhaka and mercy of devotees. Rememberance comes in our mind, be it purified or not, and mind is right above the senses. Of course, all this is just my humble opinion.

I just try to understand the difference between the bodys push and pulling on the gross/physical level and the existential/mayaic longings that Arjuna wishes to describe like '93as if by force'94. Usually then the issue is wrapped up neatly by practice of Bhakti'85. gradually'85'85or not so much gradually!! If one is following sincerely I see that nasty little impulse is quite well sublimated under the awesome power of the Holy name Jaya!!!
After all we can see this rape instinct present in the animal life and then in the human state its capacity to be sublimated achieving metamorphic states in the sphere of art science and whatever nonsense.
So conquer this at least by 50% ID'92ing the problem otherwise nothing is going to work because everthing is based on the sincerity of the participant and even if you don'92t want to Chant Hare Krsna anyway
f1 uc0u61514
f0
And if you and I are not on the same level then what don'92t you understand????? Hare Krsna

Think about it this way. If you did not have the bodily gross sex desire, like maybe when you were a kid, and got the sex act described to you in detail, would you feel attracted to do it? I remember in school, 4:th grade, when one of classmate described a french kiss, and we all thought bleaah, so disgusting!

If you were a robot, and got the sex act described to you, what would you think about it, except for propagation of the human species?

Then, can someone please come with a rational explanation for sex, except for propagation of the human species?

The sex drive defies rational explanation. It is just something we have, without understanding exactly why.

Now, the bodily pushing is the feeling in the body of wanting to have sex. The subtle level of it is to like it and find it good, to desire it, to feel life empty without it. Otherwise it would just be like an itch, something annoying.

Once we stop desire it, once we dont want it, once we have found higher enjoyment in Krishna consciousness, then it becomes easy to avoid it. No worse than an itch. It goes so much easier when we get older, and the power of the senses gets diminished. Unfortunately many persons feel that their life is ending, when they loose the bodily pushing to have sex, so they invent all kinds of pills to get back the sex desire. But for a devotee it is welcome, since it was just a distraction anyway.

One day, if we just continue the devotional process, we will just find ourself wondering why we ever had sex desire of the body. It will feel very distant and almost alien. The sex desire of the body is an illusion, after all.

"One day, if we just continue the devotional process, we will just find ourself wondering why we ever had sex desire of the body. It will feel very distant and almost alien. The sex desire of the body is an illusion, after all."

This illusion is of the greatest kind....and is the main reason of living for most people!
We must not deny its pleasurable quality,but should enquire why such pleasure exists,and what are the other options for getting pleasure: its because the soul is sat cid ananda,meaning he is an eternal,full of knowledge and bliss,just like the Lord,but in a minute form,while the Lord is all soul or all spiritual;we are covered with a gross material body,and led by a faulty mind,who is searching happiness through the senses,mainly the sex organs.
The male person has the possiblility of accumulating billions of such souls in his genitals,whereas the female does not have such power.They can receive such pleasure only by the mercy of the male,who injects such pleasure and souls in their body.Unfortunately,the result is another individual,most of the time unwanted,at it means a years of slavery to such product of lusty desire:work-work -work!
The tantric method of sharing such pleasure is a spiritual technique,that some yogis are able to acheive,through control of sexual discharge with his female partner,but is not advised nowadays as it is very difficult.There are bogus gurus of such technique,only interested in sexual pleasure.The symbol of Shiva lingam represents such technique of male -female relationship,and Shivaism used to be a world religion.

As everthing that emanates from the Lord is complete[isopainsad 1/1],we are also complete,and even the Lord resides in our body together with all the Demigods,all elements,and its possible to have self-realisation by meditating on the Supersoul within.
The Lord is not a far distant personaltity:He resides in all of us!One can be in Vaikuntha,once he has realised this,and his departure from this world is just to get rid of gross material body,no more necassary:such bodies of pure devotees are worshippable!

Dear Jayeradhe!

Is this post a quote or did you write it yourself? I preder to think the latter but Iw ould like to know before I answer it.

thankyou

[quote][cite] Prisni dasi:[/cite]...If you did not have the bodily gross sex desire, like maybe when you were a kid, and got the sex act described to you in detail, would you feel attracted to do it? ...

...Then, can someone please come with a rational explanation for sex, except for propagation of the human species?...
[/quote]

Dear Prisni dasi,

As far as I can remember, I have always had these bodily gross sex desires up till the time I came in contact with Krsna consciousness, even as a boy of 3 years old. I remember these desires regularly appearing in the mind together with desires of forcefully ruling over others. There was no need to make any description of how it worked or how it all looked like even though I never saw it physically nor did anybody describe it to me. It was all very clear from in the beginning. I just didn'92t know how it would feel when the senses would have been brought in contact with the sense objects and therefore, there was a strong desire to accomplish this, from the very beginning. I don'92t know whether this is so for everyone else also but that'92s how I can remember it, as far as I can go back.

A rational explanation for sex?

If we go a little deeper in the subtle form of sex desire, it appears to me (observed from the males point of view) that we can see it as a form of desiring to merge. On the pure, personal spiritual level there is the soul'92s desire to re-establish one'92s relationship with Krsna and become his servant. On the impersonal spiritual level it appears as a desire to merge with Brahman and become peaceful. On the intellectual level, one desires to merge with the objects of knowledge and master them, on the mental level it manifests as a desire to merge with the mental body of others and rule them over or manipulate them, on the gross bodily level it manifests as a desire to merge with the object of the senses and exploit them.

Since there is no compatibility between spirit and matter, the latter three are not possible and therefore they all result in disappointment.