Pariprashnena — Q&A Archive

Id say if they recognize publicly making that mistake, they will be no problem. Doubts can come if they still revere those criminals.

deena: you and skc have the same ip: 202.72.153.151, so probably are the same person.
we are disabling your old username, please use your new id.
Next time you do some trick we will ban your ip all together.
Go ahead with your question.

Hare Krishna Deenanathji, hope youre doing well.

Imho, this question must be answered by those devotees (who supported crimes and criminals) by closely looking into their hearts and reforming their old ways. If that happened and others still criticize them, it is spiritually dangerous for the critics. But if they persist in their old ways as seen by their current actions, they are not credible.

If they publicly admit the mistake, then I see no probs. Problem would come if they still revere those criminals.

I can understand how reforming your ways and publicly admiting the mistake can help, but to then become a guru? It just seems like a big step to me. I could understand if someone has reformed and then keeps a reasonably low profile humbly executing devotional service, but to be a pin-up guru (sorry, couldnt find the right word) just doesnt sit right with me. Or am I being too pessimistic about human nature?

By the way, skc is really me. I am reformed, publically admiting my error.

In my view, if we sort of decide who is guru, we are making the same mistake as the GBC. Taking a guru is like marrying, you can inform me that girl is not suitable for me or for anybody but you cannot force that view on me. And at the end its ME who is gonna live with the girl and reap the results (if you were right). Moreover, that mistake is probably a (necessary) stepping stone towards perfection. If we try to institutionalize the figure of guru, then GBC is going to do it, naturally. Get my point?

I can understand the principles that Veda and Mishra state, i.e reforming, publically admiting. (I was recently reading the Manu-samhita stating that part of the punishment for one who kills a brahmana is that for the next 12 years he must tell everyone he meets that he has killed a brahamana.) It appears to me that there are some grey areas where individual cases and circumstances should be considered, and this is where it becomes difficult because there is currently an unwritten social taboo on openly discussing names and details. A further difficulty in navigating this issue is that one often has no choice other than to accept a definitive conclusion on a particular case from a person/body with a vested interest, a conclusion that no court of law can accept due to conflict of interest laws.

I agree that you cannot force an opinion on who is a guru on someone, not even Krishna does that. But he does give copious instructions on standards of behaviour and qualifications required of a guru.

Another way to view the question would be like this: If someone, as a devotee, gave proactive long term support to serious criminals even to the point of leaving Iskcon, what qualifications would they have to have or demonstrate before they become eligible to be a guru or GBC in Iskcon?

Apart from clearing oneself before the Law, needs a public crystal clear written statement of repulse to those criminal activities and their possible support, conscious or unconscious. That will suffice to me. But even that is usually NOT happening, covered by vested interests as you say. What is the fear? To make the holy aura around the person disappear? They should not fear that if the person is really humble and with no ulterior motivation.

amazing how in a society that is supposed to be promoting the absolute truth - the truth can sometimes be so hard to come by

PARIPRASHNENA IS A WASTE OF TIME

In my opinion prabhu, those who support criminals are themselves criminals. Otherwise why support? This is a huge problem that plagues our once revered society. The current criminals have taken the place of the former criminals. Due to their previous support, they themselves have become criminal. Therefore, there is no attraction there. We dont witness people flocking to the temples anymore. One has to ask himself the question as to why this is, and answer in all honesty. Your servant, Priya

I have just read on Hansadutas site: Ramanujacharya engaged dacoits for collection, then had them killed. Madhvacharya pummeled his opponents...

Funny to hear it coming from him... if you know what I mean, guns and roses for Krsna I mean.

Okay I will tell you another story. Mayapur temple was often attacked by one local gang. Prabhupada asked to see the gang leader. after a talk, the gang leader joined. He was the TP for a long time.

Good one Bubba. Yes, but only Srila Prabhupada could do such a thing. Otherwise it is out of the realm of our capicity. We are not pure devotees like Prabhupada.Your servant, Priya

[quote][cite] Priya:[/cite] We are not pure devotees like Prabhupada.Your servant, Priya[/quote] Nobody is like Prabhupada. But Im sure sitapati have the same capacity.. Even more I guess, as he can post on this forum and Prabhupada can not.

Please provide an example. Not to minimize anything about sitapati, who I am sure is very advanced. But, what makes you so certain that he possess the purity and spiritual prowess to pull off such a thing. Humbly, your servant, Priya

Going back to the theme, I can see a lot of distrust caused by the fact that some of the new key leaders in ISKCON were at one point loyal to Kirtanananda or even initiated by him, etc
The issue is not going to go away, I think a written declaration by those personalities explaining their mistakes and present understanding coming from experience would silence all this turmoil.
Trying to sweep it under the carpet could seem the best, but it WILL backfire at one point or another. Did not we learned from the past yet? Better to be valiant, straightforward and clear all misunderstandings.
And, yes I do consider them innocent or misguided in principle, but at the same time I do need some clarification.

It is not in principal that they committed some pretty heavy offenses. They actually did it. Therefore, where is the innocence prabhu? Admission at this point in time is beyond conception. It simply wont happen. It didnt happen then, what would make the perpetrators admit it now? In any event, I do not wish to spend too much time on this matter. To me, its so old, its dead. And I think it detrimental to my spiritual well being to dwell on it. If I continue in this way I will become like Janmastami prabhu. I made my comment and will certainly go into further. However, it is not my favorite subject matter. Your servant,
Priya

[quote][cite] Priya:[/cite]Please provide an example. Not to minimize anything about sitapati, who I am sure is very advanced. But, what makes you so certain that he possess the purity and spiritual prowess to pull off such a thing. Humbly, your servant, Priya[/quote]

I hope that will answer the question. According to our philo, ie Caitanya-vaisnava siddhanta, jiva, ie any jiva, is not acuyta. All jivas have the same capacity of attainment of krsna-prema. Also no criminal act, birth or mistake can contaminate a jiva, that includes Keith also know as Kirtanananda. Of course I agree with you Priya Prabhu.

Whenever we like we should quote sastras, whenever we do not like, we just refer to the common sense or even better an emotional one. So anyone who was told by Prabhupada to support certain devotees, should revise this instruction, because they are convicted criminals, even if its against our siddhanta.

With all due respect prabhu, you are comparing apples to oranges. Taking repeated birth and death is certainly proof of criminality. And of-course this is not a disqualification regarding the orders of Mahaprabhu. However, we must in my opinion, take an honest stand on the issue. Lets call the spade, a spade. Why do you guys always quote satsra in an attempt to justify the actions of the perpetrators. And if you honestly believe what you say, than why are these people not accepted back into the society? viz Hansadutta, Kirtananada and so on and so forth. Hypocrisy. Otherwise those individuals would be welcomed back into the society. They are not. Therefore, what is the point of quoting "our philosophy." If you dont follow it? YS, Priya

It might be a dead issue for you Priya Mataji, but in my opinion it is quite a live issue. The reason I say this is because the institutional dynamics and personalities that allowed these perpetrators to occupy topmost positions of spiritual authority, are the very same institutional dynamics and personalities that guide our society today.

Firstly, I assure you, I am no Mataji deena prabhu. Priya is only a portion of my actual spiritual name. In any event, I respect your opinion. However, based on my personal experience regarding this matter, you are wasting your precious time debating over this issue. Krsna is the controller This is all Krsnas arrangement. As soon as Srila Prabhupada left the planet, actually just prior to that, "our society" had become, or was on the way to becoming something other than Srila Prabhupadas ISKCON. Thats why "our society" today should be rejected. It is not what is was intended to be. Therefore, it is to be rejected. This is most unfortunate for the sincere, as we are left with no choice except to reject them and "their society". We want no part of it. If we take any role of involvement with them, we to become implicated in the their continuing offenses. I am not one who wishes to be in that position. Therefore, the temple and all its functions are available to me in my home. I worship Srila Prabhupada and the Gaura Nitai deities that reside in my home. Prabhupadas books are there. Everything is there. I have no need or desire to associate with the perpetrators and their associates. Krsna consciousness begins at home. Believe it or not, its absolutely true. Therefore, why should one waste his time trying to do something which is beyond his capacity or control. You are not the doer. No matter what you say, write, publish or attempt to do in the hopes of rectification, it simply will not work. Krsna is the doer. Not us. After all these years and all of our failed attempts at rectification, through forming different camps, writing, publishing so many different things, some of us are still trying to fight a battle we just can win. At least for now anyway. So, we just continue with our spiritual business at home and continue to sharpen our swords. Thats all we can really do. We are not the controllers. When Krsna sees fit for the sincere ones to take over, better be prepared Bubba, because were going to battle. I personally would like to see it go down in that way, but it may not. Whatever Krsna wants we will accept. For now, better to simply stay away from them and wait. No arguing, no pontificating, nothing. Just take care of your spiritual business and wait to see what happens. In the mean time, try to help the sincere ones who are somehow trapped in "their society". Krsna will reveal His plan in due course. I completely understand your frustration prabhu. Its like a warrior sitting in his hut sharpening his sword. He cant do it for very long, because of his fighting spirit he must fight. So, sometimes we channel that fighting energy into this futile arguing because we have no battles to fight. Thats alright on occasion, or when the need arises. However, we should not make it our soul engagement. After all that the like minded persons have attempted to do in the hopes of change. Nothing has changed. In fact, its only gotten worse. So how much more proof do you need that we are not the doers? You cant change Krsnas plans, its way beyond your capacity. As it is for all of us. Therefore, better to chant Hare Krsna and wait to see what takes place. All of this is futile. Sincerely, Priya

[quote][cite] Priya:[/cite]Why do you guys always quote satsra in an attempt to justify the actions of the perpetrators. And if you honestly believe what you say, than why are these people not accepted back into the society? viz Hansadutta, Kirtananada and so on and so forth. Hypocrisy. Otherwise those individuals would be welcomed back into the society. They are not. Therefore, what is the point of quoting "our philosophy." If you dont follow it? YS, Priya[/quote]

Sastra yoni vat.

According to current GBC position (e.g. HDG) anyone who claims to be in ISKCON is an a member. So everyone is welcomed back, just as it was in Prabhupadas days. So who does not follow what? I do not understand the whole notion of excluding anyone, restricting yes, but not excluding or depriving, thats against the basics of compassion.

I agree with ccd, restricting levels of participation is required in some cases, not exclusion. Iskcon is for the most fallen and thats us.

The point of the question is to understand the reasoning/dynamics behind an apparent lack of any restriction on people who have shown extended pro-active support for a known criminal and peadophile.

I think the point is "Are they still supporting those nut heads criminals? If so, then they should be restricted too. Simple.
(and I mean for that, special respect for them, "explanations" or cover ups for their criminal activities, etc).
Talk and express yourselves loud and clear, my dear ex- nutswami followers so to clear our doubts. Otherwise it is all cloudy and that doesnt help.

Q is: How can one give long term support to serious criminals and still become a GBC or guru?
Answer is [i] one has to provide support to all[/i]. Some restrictions can be placed on criminals again to support them and others ie that their relationship will not harm others who need ever greater support, eg innocent, women, children. I see this question as being aimed directly on RNS and other few swamis from NV. I think they are not to blame. Really. Prabhupada strongly supported KS in his position even after quite a few serious deviations, how can we blame SPs disciples for following KS then?

I sincerely say that still a clarification on their part will clear out many minds (mine being one). Dont you think?

[quote][cite] mishra:[/cite]I sincerely say that still a clarification on their part will clear out many minds (mine being one). Dont you think?[/quote] Yes, any clarification is always good.

Bubaji, I regret to inform you, but you are in illusion. I know these guys personally and stiil maintain contact with one or two of them. Trust me, It is NOT as it was in "Prabhupada days". Your DEAD WRONG! I will personally conatct a couple of these people that you claim are welcomed back into Iskcon and have them spell it out for you. You mentioned Hansadutta prabhu. Ask him if he is welcomed back. Ask Kirtanananda.They are not. Kirtanananda cant even come within so many feet of the property in NV. So please do not proceed to claim understanding regarding this particular matter, when you obviously have none. Most unfortunate for you both. (ccd & deena) YS, Priya

I was referring to a clarification from the present leaders ex-followers of KS.

They will take the truth to their graves. It will never see the light of day, I assure you. I speak to Hansadutta on a daily basis, and I spoke with Kitanananda not too long ago. Still, neither of them are allowed anywhere near the temples. Kirtanananda, I can see, but not Hansadutta. He never touched any children. As far as clarification from the followers of K, like Radhanatha and Kuladri, they are guilty as sin. But you will NEVER hear this from them. NEVER! Yes, it would be nice to hear them admit their previous misdeeds. But you wont. They have too much material prosperity to lose. Kuladri is a paid employee of Iskcon for his so-called service at NV. (PAID) And Radhanatha is too wrapped up in himself to give up the worship he receives from his most unfortunate disciples. You people better get on the ball. When the battle I am hoping for ensues, you may be on the wrong side. If it doesnt OK, but youll still be on the wrong side. At this point, based on your responses, for lack of a better term, and please forgive me, you guys are just pissing in the wind. You have no real knowledge of the situation at hand. Its all speculative and based on second and third hand information. Want to know the truth? Contact Hansadutta. Contact Kirtanananda. They will give you the real deal. I have to be quite honest here, I was actually hoping, prior to my speaking on this site, that at least some of you came to grips with this. But, unfortunately you have not. May Prabhupada and Krsna bless you in your spiritual endeavors. YS, Priya

see if I understand, KS and Hamsadutta are the victims and the followers are guilty?
I though KS is the indisputable offender and the subject of this thread is to know if some of his followers somehow are guilty by association or conspiracy.
What is KS version anyway? Seems like nobody knows it but you and a few other.

[quote][cite] Priya:[/cite]Bubaji, I regret to inform you, but you are in illusion. I know these guys personally and stiil maintain contact with one or two of them. Trust me, It is NOT as it was in "Prabhupada days". Your DEAD WRONG! I will personally conatct a couple of these people that you claim are welcomed back into Iskcon and have them spell it out for you. You mentioned Hansadutta prabhu. Ask him if he is welcomed back. Ask Kirtanananda.They are not. Kirtanananda cant even come within so many feet of the property in NV. So please do not proceed to claim understanding regarding this particular matter, when you obviously have none. Most unfortunate for you both. (ccd & deena) YS, Priya[/quote]
This has nothing to do and does not answer the question.

Mishra prabhu, yes that is correct. Only those who were in close association with K know the truth. Janmastami speaks the truth regarding this matter. Because he was there, as was I. However, I will not go into deatils! Next issue: I never said victims. A comment was made that todays Iskcon is as it was in "Prabhupada days". I am simply trying to enlighten you by my statements. Those days are long gone. If you choose not to believe, that is your choice, as well as your misfortune. This has everything to do with, and does answer the question. Unless of-course you have some other question. You said, they are welcomed back in like back in "Prabhupada days".. Well I say they are not. They say they are not. Once again Bubba, your choice. Remain in illusion, or accept the facts. I was there! Janmastami was there! We know what really happened. When Radhanatha and Kuladri would see either one of us after the fact, they would run and hide in fear of being exposed by us. Janmastami has apparently made this his lifes work. I chose another route. As far what Ks version is all about, I honestly dont know. Hes too busy clinging to the handful of foolish followers he has somehow maintained. He will NEVER admit! Whereas Hansadutta has admitted. So, at least Hansadutta can admit his mistakes. But still, he is not welcome. More than anything, these people we are speaking of fear exposure more than anything else. They will and have gone to great lengths to keep it as secret as possible. Claiming that Jan is simply crazy. But, they cant say that about me because I didnt go public with the info. I thought, what would be the spiritual benefit. Either to me or anyone else for that matter. There is none. Everyone knew enough to reject K. Therefore, I took a back seat to the matter and remained silent. To this day, I refuse to go into detail. It has no spiritually beneficial qualities. So, why partake? To possibly gain some notoriety, or get my fifteen minutes. NO! Prabhupada would not approve of such activity. I personally have been approached by many who know, to write a book regarding this matter. I refused for the above mentioned reasons. I hold true to that. I will not go into detail! However, I will state that Jan is telling the truth regarding this. I simply dont approve of his continuation of it. Its counter productive to our KC. Please, let us end this conversation. It is not good. What is the value??? YS, Priya

One last comment on this issue. Why perpetuate the nonsense activities of the past? What is the value? If someone could give me a valid spiritually beneficial reason for exposing the truth. I will give up all the tapes. Until then, just know that Janmastami speaks the truth. Hes just really upset about the whole thing, more-so than myself. You must try and understand, we were willing to give up our lives for the cause, and then we got, and please pardon me, pissed on. So, Jans version is the real one. He just went a little bullistic with it in my opinion. His vision may have become somewhat distorted by dwelling on this. However, that does not constitute invalidation. Its all unfortunately TRUE. Do with this info as you please. I can only hope that you guys accept it and then leave it be. At least for now. YS,Priya

So we dont repeat the mistakes that where made in the past,like NEW child abuse in Ireland and MORE Gurus falling down.

Hariharibol prabhu, First and foremost, they are NOT Gurus. Only in the minds of themselves and their foolish followers. You know as well as I do that they are simply legends in their own distorted minds. They posses have no real shakti. Never did, never will. Only because they superseed Srila Prabhupada. And therfore lost the mery. Along with that mercy was Prabhupadas shakti. But because they thought themselves equal to or even better than Srila Prabhupada, they have NOTHING! Thats the very reason why the society is in this present state. Fallen Gurus is a contradiction of terms. Guru does not fall down! In any event, I am not aware of the situation in Ireland. It is most unfortunate. However, as I stated previously, they will get what they deserve in due course. Of this, there is NO DOUBT. Now maybe some of you out there can understand why we want war. This stuff just goes on and on and on. The so-called authorities have done and will continue to do nothing regarding this matter. They simply continue to try and vail themselves by claiming to help these kids, yet as we have all seen, they didnt and dont, and wont. Let us wait Bubba. Be patient. Hare Krsna!

Im quite sure now that almost all of the last posts completely ignore the topic at hand. Question is why?

Why is not the original question. Why what?

I understand Priya what you are saying and I made up my mind sometime ago a little like you describe. Krishna is in control and I cant do anything about it, so why waste time. But at the same time there is a part in me that wanted to know the truth and the wise decision after that is to concentrate our poor kali-yuga already damaged energy in our individual KC and the preaching.

ccd: It is all about the question, but the question is put in first person and at the end it is individual choice.
I do not have any problem if you want to advance your cause, probably like Janmasthami Prabhu has done and I understand your quest. But the most powerful thing we can do to clean our movement right now, all being said as it has been said and all information out is probably just that, getting the info out there so that we do not permit the same to occur again. As for the gurus and authorities, we cannot check and shouldnt check people from choosing them. After all it is voluntary and everyone will ripe the fruit of their actions, correct or mistaken. What does that have really to do with our individual spiritual lives?

I have given you the truth Bubba. What you choose to do with it is strictly your business. It is most unfortunate that we have nothing else to discuss here. I have come forward, and not intentionally, and have done so in all honesty. I have confirmed Janmastamis claims. Like I said, in my opinion, he went a little to far. And trust me when I say, that this is an understatement to say the least. However, the truth is what it is, like it or not. Janmastami has spoken the truth regarding this particular subject matter. It was not my intention to get into this, but somehow or other I am right in the middle of it. Jan has spoken the truth. There you have it prabhu. Now you can continue with concentrating on your own KC. Is this not sufficient? And ccd, are we now going to critisize grammer. Give me a break.
Advance my cause? My only interest is to advance by the means of the prescription given by OUR spiritual master Srila Prabhupada. Nothing more! I came to this site to possibly lend some assistance to those who need it. And they are many. This is rapidly turning into a free for all. Furthermore, yes they should be checked! They need guidance. It is your duty as an elder to give it. So, let us focus on that. To remain silent regarding the taking of a bogus guru is not the right thing to do. If we can present Srila Prabhupada to them in the hopes that they get it. Than let us do so. Where is the harm? It is to our benefit to do so ccd.
Futhermore, ccd prabhu, it is beyond our control to attempt to prevent these events from taking place again. You are not the doer! We can certainly try to the best of our ability, but it still remains out of our control. Is it not?

Advance my cause? My only interest is to advance by the means of the prescription given by OUR spiritual master Srila Prabhupada. Nothing more! I came to this site to possibly lend some assistance to those who need it. And they are many. This is rapidly turning into a free for all. Furthermore, yes they should be checked! They need guidance. It is your duty as an elder to give it. So, let us focus on that. To remain silent regarding the taking of a bogus guru is not the right thing to do. If we can present Srila Prabhupada to them in the hopes that they get it. Than let us do so. Where is the harm? It is to our benefit to do so ccd.

Futhermore, ccd prabhu, it is beyond our control to attempt to prevent these events from taking place again. You are not the doer! We can certainly try to the best of our ability, but it still remains out of our control. Is it not?

Let us return to the question shall we. deena prabhu or skc or whoever he is, posed this question obviously in an attempt to somehow find out what the qualifications are to get his guruship reinstated, or whatever his position was. "By the way, Im skc and I am now reformed and am publicly admitting my error." Give me a break Bubba. He simply wants to continue with his previous position and wants to know how to get there. This is his question. Yet, no-one has answered it for him. Someone please tell him.

I think after 4 comments in a row by the same Vratagirl explaining somebody elses question people may loose interest, would you?

The same girl. Pretty funny. Obviously you are not following what has been said here. Get with the program Bubba. Then make you comment.

Please allow me to clarify. My Name is Priyavrata das.

ccd: Go fuck yourself. You are fool #1.

If only you had the balls to say that to my face.....

no other name calling or provocation will be tolerated by the 2 prabhus here. Please chill out and stick to the question at hand.

I didnt start this Bubba. I will chill. However, I will not tolerate the ravings of a neopyte or anyone else for that matter. So lets keep it civil.

I think deena is just very worried about previous KS followers taking positions in ISKCON. That is his question, isnt?

Im not certain Bubba. But if you say so than I accept.

Please accept my apologies if I offended. The whole topic just brought up all the old memories that I really didnt want to re-visit. YS, Priya

To avoid any further conflict, please tell me ho to change my user name.

Never mind. Done deal.

[quote][cite] Priya:[/cite]And if you honestly believe what you say, than why are these people not accepted back into the society? viz Hansadutta, Kirtananada and so on and so forth. Hypocrisy. Otherwise those individuals would be welcomed back into the society. They are not.[/quote]

Respected Vaishanvas: One devotee friend has pointed out to me this interesting topic of conversation and I wish to add my humble two cents to the discussion. I have been in touch periodically with both Hansadutta and Kirtanananda. I am a former disciple of Kirtanananda. Some of you posting and reading this forum may know me personally.

Why is Kirtanananda not permitted to have any contact with ISKCON?

One reason may be that he has not fullfilled the requirements imposed upon him by the ISKCON Child Protection Office.

On September 10, 2000, ISKCON'92s Child Protection Office determined that, based on testimony from two victims, he had committed sexual child abuse. He was denied contact with ISKCON for 5 years, and conditions of retribution were given by which he could once again be allowed contact with ISKCON after 5 years, if he so desired. However, he chose to ignore the conditions given for his rectification. Excerpts from the actual document are quoted below.

Quote:

Based on the testimonies and documentation described above, this panel has determined that Kirtanananda Das committed sexual child abuse. Due to these transgressions, it is the determination of this panel that Kirtanananda is not permitted to have any contact with ISKCON or ISKCON-affiliated organizations for five years from the date of this Official Decision. This restriction includes a prohibition from visiting an ISKCON temple or participating in ISKCON functions. After five years from the date of this Official Decision Kirtanananda may reapply to the APVC or the GBC Executive Committee for reinstatement into ISKCON. This application for reinstatement will be considered if Kirtanananda complies with the following stipulations:

(1) He must contribute at least $10,000 to an organization dedicated to serving Vaishnava youth, such as Children of Krishna, the APVC, or a gurukula approved by the APVC.

(2) He must write apology letters to all the victims described in this letter. In these letters he must fully acknowledge his transgressions of child abuse, and he must take full responsibility for those actions. Also, he must express appropriate remorse, and offer to make amends to the victims. These letters should be sent to the APVC, not directly to the victims.

(3) He must undergo a psychological evaluation by a mental health professional pre-approved by the APVC, and he must comply with recommendations for ongoing therapy described in the evaluation report and by the APVC.

(4) Kirtanananda Das must fully comply with all governmental investigations into misconduct on his part.

End Quote

To my knowledge, Kirtanananda has fullfilled NONE of these 4 requirements, so why should be be welcomed back into ISKCON and let bygones be bygones? Certainly one who commits offenses and sincerely apoligizes and repents should be forgiven and accepted. I think Hansadutta is in this category. But this is not Kirtananandas way.

Sincerely your servant

Hrishikesh

P.S. Another perhaps more important question is: Why have some of the current gurus and administrators in ISKCON--who have in the past promoted and conspired in and had knowledge of illegal and criminal activities including murder--not yet admitted nor apologized for such offenses and consistently deny any involvement in such activities, even when accused by some outspoken eyewitnesses who, for whatever reason, decided not to continue in the insidious conspiracy of silence anymore?

Kirtanananda was investigated by an ISKCON office and ordered to apologize to his victims, but who is going to investigate the conspirators from New Vrindaban and Los Angeles temple management and ask them to apologize to the families of the victim(s) who were murdered over 20 years ago?

Clearly, those in positions of power want to stay in power, "for the good of Prabhupadas movement" and "not to disturb the preaching" undoubtedly. Yet dont these things have a way of backfiring? How long can a person hope to keep their crimes secret before finally a big scandal erupts?

It happened to Kirtanananda, and I suspect it will happen again to others. If Kirtanananda had apologized when his immoral activities became widely known after the 1993 Winnebago Incident, and if he had undergone penance, seen a psychologist, underwent therapy, offered retribution to his victims, etc., instead of trying to cover it up and continue his guruship and sexual predation, I might still be serving him today.

I felt the pain of betrayal back then, and I fear many disciples of some current ISKCON gurus may feel that same pain someday in the future.

Nice. Hari bol! Thanks for the input. YS, Priya

Well boys, heres a guy who was and maybe still is, or maybe even already has, written a book regarding all this stuff. Hrsikesha prabhu, from NV. He has much to contribute to this. So, speak with him for awhile. Im fried! Later!

Lord Nityananda forgave Jagai/Madhai.
Srila Prabhupada initiated dirty hippies...HIs godbrothers prefered to stay in India,discussing who should initiate...
Jesus forgave his oppressers...and insulted the Pharisees...
The prostitute,in sastras,was saved by the Visnudutas,while the bell-ringing brahmana was taken to hell.
I thinks the worst of criminals[after paying for his crimes],should be engaged in devotional service! But not necessarily as guru/TP etc...earning thousands of dollars,and still engaged in sinful activities!

I apologise for the storm that has been stirred up. And I apologise unreservedly to Ekendra and Sita-pati prabhus for I am sure I offended them by aggressively pursuing an answer to this question under the name of skc.

Im just trying to understand the reasoning behind allowing such people into topmost positions of spiritual authority. Perhaps I can make some progress on this if someone could anyone answer the following, which is basically the same original question, worded differently:

If someone, as a devotee, gave proactive long term support to serious criminals and/or peadophiles, what qualifications would they have to demonstrate before they became eligible to be a guru or GBC in Iskcon?

related:
http://www.pariprashnena.com/discussion/33/why-does-advancement-in-knowledge-seem-to-bring-reduced-accountability

I would love to hear what advice Priyavrata prabhu has because my son-in law is aspiring for Radhanatha Swami as his s/master & although he has now heard about Radhanathas murky past he still has not dismissed the idea of initiation from Radhanatha. It seems to me that if there was even more widespread honest histrory such as books by those devotees who were there then my son-in-law would not be in such danger of committing a big mistake.So I wish Priyavrata would reveal more even though it might be painful for him to dig out those awful past event details, at least it would help so many others. So what can I say to my son-in-law to convince him not to aspire to radhanatha.

Bengali Proverb
'93Regarding the position of a person who does not speak even when he knows the truth: jani saksi nahi deya tara papa haya. A person who knows things as they are and still does not bear witness becomes involved in sinful activities"

Kes: just do a google search for "Radhanath" and collect all the negative statements that you can find, then share that with him. Im sure thats the Krishna conscious thing to do - not. :-)

According to Hari Bhakti Vilasa the prospective disciple should spend one year in the association of the guru, living with him, so that the two can examine each others character. After one year, if they are both satisfied as to the sincerity and qualification of each other, initiation should take place.

As far as what has happened in the past, no one is blameless - all are sinners. Both before and after coming to the movement. At any moment we can fall back as we are ksara, fallible, by nature.

What we need to see is what is the consciousness of a person right now - not 20 years ago. You cannot substitute a google search for that. Both blind following and absurd inquiries are condemned, and they are two sides of the same coin - the inability to actually measure the character of a person.

So I would not discourage anyone from taking initiation from anyone. I would encourage them to pray sincerely, practice sincerely, and make sure that they are satisfied with the character of the person they are taking initiation from by personally observing their character and behaviour over a significant period of time (one year +).

This brings us to the eternal question:"Who is guru?"
As the swami in question got sannyasa initiation from a fallen guru![Kirtanananda],involved in criminal activities,that are not yet completely solved,as there have been multiple murders,including children.
The criminal,jailed for life[Tom Dresher] was awarded sannyasa in jail,and is now a preacher for prisoners.He receives many visits from former New Vrndaban residents.
Other friends of Kirtanananda are still in power,enjoying salary of $80,000/year as president of NVrindaban temple.
http://tirthainprison.com

[quote][cite] sitapati:[/cite]Kes: just do a google search for "Radhanath" and collect all the negative statements that you can find, then share that with him. Im sure thats the Krishna conscious thing to do - not. :-)

According to Hari Bhakti Vilasa the prospective disciple should spend one year in the association of the guru, living with him, so that the two can examine each others character. After one year, if they are both satisfied as to the sincerity and qualification of each other, initiation should take place.

As far as what has happened in the past, no one is blameless - all are sinners. Both before and after coming to the movement. At any moment we can fall back as we are ksara, fallible, by nature.

What we need to see is what is the consciousness of a person right now - not 20 years ago. You cannot substitute a google search for that. Both blind following and absurd inquiries are condemned, and they are two sides of the same coin - the inability to actually measure the character of a person.

So I would not discourage anyone from taking initiation from anyone. I would encourage them to pray sincerely, practice sincerely, and make sure that they are satisfied with the character of the person they are taking initiation from by personally observing their character and behaviour over a significant period of time (one year +).[/quote]

Dearest Vaishnavas,

I should not speak, as I am an offender and a fallen soul, yet still I feel I might be able to contribute something to this conversation. Thank you tolerating my presence.

I have known Radhanath Maharaj I believe since 1978 when he was pujari at the Vrindaban Brahmacari Ashram. I have always been impressed with his sincerity, his humility, and his seriousness in Krishna Consciousness. I have never spent a lot of time with him, but my impressions are from my sporadic exchanges with him over the years. I have respect for him in my mind and affection for him in my heart.

Of course I cannot speak for him or claim to know his mind, but I believe he would never deliberately steer a disciple astray. If I am not mistaken, the Bombay devotees begged him to lead them in India after Kirtananandas discrepancies became widely known in 1993. They needed a leader in Bhaktipadas absence, and Radhanath reluctantly accepted that responsibility, although he had been more or less leading the Chowpatty community since around 1987 or 1988. I remember when he first accepted sannyasa from Bhaktipada, he practically had to be forced to accept the renounced order, he was that reluctant. I suspect he accepted the position of ISKCON Initiating Guru with the same reticence, although I do not know for sure.

Unfortunately, all those years serving Kirtanananda, who was secretly deviating from the strict vows of a sannyasi, caused us New Vrindaban inmates who loved Bhaktipada with all our hearts, minds and souls, to act to protect our spiritual master in ways which over the course of time has proven to be less than exemplary. What were we to do? A great demon was spying on the community, carrying illegal guns and ammunition, and threatening by phone calls to destroy Kirtanananda. Even Kuladris life was threatened.

These were desperate times and desperate measures were needed to insure the safety of the Pure Devotee of Krishna. Even Tirtha in prison acknowledges this. Lord Caitanya wanted to kill the offenders who attacked Lord Nityananada, but Lord Nityananda was able to convince Lord Caitanya to refrain from killing Jaghai and Madhai. Unfortunately at NV there was no one who knew of the murder plot who could could also pacify, like Lord Nityananda, those bent on destroying the demon Sulochan.

So things were done in secret (but still known to a great many other leaders in ISKCON), and apparently a pact of silence was made which even Kirtanananda, who was insulted, stripped of power, and sent to prison, has not broken. However there were others who witnessed these conversations and many years later spoke about those times with others, including my self.

To be continued-- (comment too long for one post)

My godbrother Ramacandra recently told me he asked Radhanath back in 1986 if he knew who it was who murdered Sulochan. Radhanath is said to have replied, "I dont know, but whoever it was, was doing the will of Krishna."

There were others who were privy to more incriminating conversations; one of Bhaktipadas servant/drivers, and another, a former gurukula boy, were witness to some of these conversations detailing the orders to destroy the demon. Both spoke to me recently but were extremely reticent to speak what they know outright, perhaps because of fear for their own safety. They lived through those times of fanatical devotion and saw the hideous results of such devotion. Perhaps they fear that it is better for them, both materially or spiritually, to keep quiet and out of the limelight. I cannot blame them, and I respect their desire to remain anonymous.

I believe if Radhanath was actually involved as a key player in these activities, as Janmastami claims, and as others have collaborated, his pain today must be very very great, because he is not a megalomaniac like Bhaktipada, who actually believed he was Prabhupadas Only Son and Pure Devotee Savior of the World. I think Radhanath understands his position as lower than the straw in the grass, and he must bitterly regret any past activities enacted under the dark spell of illusion and ignorance.

Of course, I cannot speak directly for Radhanath. Perhaps the years of serving as an initiating spiritual master himself and accepting adoring disciples may have subtly changed his vision. Perhaps he feels that he has a responsibility to protect ISKCON and his disciples. I do not know. I can only hope and pray that he continues to serve Prabhupada as a humble Vaishnava, but perhaps more importantly, that he not continue to hide anything which, if discovered in the future, might serve to discredit himself and ISKCON.

I say if a sincere seeker of the truth finds in Radhanath the inspiration he needs to reject material life and accept the path of Bhakti Yoga, I recommend he go for it. But please make sure you understand that the worship you give to your guru is for Krishna. Guru is like the postman, delivering Krishna. At least that is what we hope.

Your Fallen Servant

[quote][cite] Hrishikesh:[/cite]
There were others who were privy to more incriminating conversations; one of Bhaktipadas servant/drivers, and another, a former gurukula boy, were witness to some of these conversations detailing the orders to destroy the demon.[/quote]
Just a question out of curiosity: Do you still think Sulochana was a demon and he deserved to be killed? Does Radhanath Swami think like that too?

Theres also Sulochans as well as Charles St. Deniss son..[both found dead].Demons?
or dangerous witnesses?

[quote][cite] mishra:[/cite][quote][cite] Hrishikesh:[/cite]
There were others who were privy to more incriminating conversations; one of Bhaktipadas servant/drivers, and another, a former gurukula boy, were witness to some of these conversations detailing the orders to destroy the demon.[/quote]
Just a question out of curiosity: Do you still think Sulochana was a demon and he deserved to be killed? Does Radhanath Swami think like that too?[/quote]

Dear Mishra, Thanks for your question. I never thought Sulochan was a demon. Somehow Krishna protected me from all this. I was out on the pick practically all the time in the early and mid-1980s, and although I may have heard about Sulochan during my periodic visits back to New Vrindaban, I did not become involved, not even emotionally. If there was a problem, I must have felt that Krishna would take care of it. I think I must have been a "Bliss Boy." Just happy to serve Krishna and Guru and leaving the result up to Him.

But Im sure if someone had taken me into their confidence and told me about all the threats that were happening, and the alleged connection between Sulochan and Triyogi, who had bashed Bhaktipada on the head in October 1985, I might have reacted differently. As it was, I was kept in ignorance, and only recently discovered much of this sordid affair. I think the management knew I was no ksatriya, just a simple sudra, and it was better to keep me happy and out on the pick.

I do not know Radhanatha Swamis thoughts. You must ask him directly. But I suspect he, like myself and many others, realized after Bhaktipadas indisretions came to light, that Sulochan was not off his rocker and envious like we may have thought in 1985; he was probably in less illusion than we were, although he did have a fanatical hatred for Bhaktipada and was probably dangerous. I wrote about this in an article published in the Sampradaya Sun in March of this year: "Faith Is Blind and Ignorance Is Bliss." See http://harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/03-07/editorials1372.htm

mishra prabhu asked:
"Just a question out of curiosity: Do you still think Sulochana was a demon and he deserved to be killed? Does Radhanath Swami think like that too? "

as hrishikesh prabhu has pointed out, only radhanath can say what he thinks now,
and publicly, hes not speaking on these matters. legally, he cant. not if he values his freedom to come and go in the US&A, WITHOUT revealing how it is that he managed to avoid prosecution when many with far less involvement than him were
subpeonaed. everyone else at his upper level of involvement has been prosecuted
and convicted. i fear that those taken into his "inner circle" will face the same crisis of faith when faced with insurmountable evidence proving the "less than infallability" of their "Gurudev". still, the alternative, looking the other way, is not acceptable.
their presumably "infallible Guru"

Reading these comments so far has not convinced me that Radhanatha swami is ok for my son-in-law or for others aspiring for him, but I do feel that I would rather avoid him given his track record. Just like a dodgy business man might appear to have a good business but I would rather deal with a reputable business man.

Where does the idea that His Holiness Radhanatha Swami is "infallible" come from? He is of the category of jiva, or tatastha-sakti. By definition he is fallible. Only Krishna is Acyuta, "Infallible". The fact that we are here in the material world is proof not only of our fallibility, but of our fall.

So any initiating spiritual master that you take official initiation from is of the category of fallible living entity. As you take siksha you should take it from someone who is connected with the spiritual line at the time they give it, and you can ascertain this from their personal behaviour and by measuring their instructions against the standards of sadhu and sastra.

I would be careful about overemphasizing the role and position of Guru. Its that exclusive reliance on the guru and the unrealistic expectation that he is infallible that lead to the whole deviated culture of the 80s and 90s, including the Kirtanananda cult.

As it explains in the 11th canto of the Srimad Bhagavatam: The Supreme Absolute Truth is one without a second and is described in various ways by different sages. Therefore it is not possible to ascertain the complete truth from only one spiritual master.

Its not meant to be a personality cult. The Guru is a guide. There is a map book also, the scripture, there are other guides, and ultimately its up to you to walk the path and see where you are going. It doesnt all rely on one single point of failure.

Of course, it can always turn out in the end that your initiating spiritual master is actually a nitya-siddha, sent to this world especially with a mission to reform the tradition and reclaim the fallen souls, but this is something usually realized "at the end", and its not something that either the spiritual master or the disciple banks on or cashes in on. Both are subordinate to the process of Krishna Consciousness, based on guru, sadhu, and sastra.

Even Krishna Himself vocally subordinates to His own processes while Hes in this world: "O son of Pritha, there is no work prescribed for Me within all the three planetary systems. Nor am I in want of anything, nor have I a need to obtain anything -- and yet I am engaged in prescribed duties." Bg. 3.22.

So neither the disciple nor the guru should presume or present that the guru is infallible. He passes on the infallible instructions of the Infallible One, Acyuta, and this is what makes him guru. Its the responsibility of the disciple to make sure that these instructions are infallible by correlating them with sadhu and sastra, and the responsibility of the guru to train the disciple to do this.

if your choice is to get a madhyama adhikari guru, it is OK for me. Others could not be satisfied with that.
question: Is Srila Prabhupada fallible (as in jiva category, tatastha-sakti.)?
If not, then is it proper to worship your madhyam guru and Srila Prabhupada at the same level?

[quote][cite] kes:[/cite]Reading these comments so far has not convinced me that Radhanatha swami is ok for my son-in-law or for others aspiring for him, but I do feel that I would rather avoid him given his track record. Just like a dodgy business man might appear to have a good business but I would rather deal with a reputable business man.[/quote]

Youll hear something about everyone, but the question is weather you believe it or not. So how to judge who to believe?

[quote][cite] dave:[/cite]

Youll hear something about everyone, but the question is weather you believe it or not. So how to judge who to believe?[/quote]
[p]
That is exactly the quid: the decision rests on you after pondering all info available and that is why information and education is soooo important.
If GBC wants to preserve ISKCONs sanctity in the guru issue, that is what is needed, free flow of information, not guru position appointment and covering up if problems come

How to judge? Facts are a good place to start. As regards to Radhanath Swami, I refer you to facts noted in the Grand Jury Indictment document Overt Act 33 in which Richard Slavin (Radhanath Swamis legal name) is named as a participant when money was handed to the killer of Sulochan dasa as payment for the murder and for escape money. ( http://harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/03-07/nvp/12.jpg and http://harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/03-07/nvp/13.jpg)

To be fair, this damning fact should be balanced with other facts of the good things Maharajas has done. But is it simply a question of piling up all the negatives and all the positives and seeing which way the scales tilt? Im not sure. Can you brush off something as abominable as knowingly participating in another devotees murder? Or can we just murder someone and walk around tulasi and everything is forgiven?

True, as Sitapati prabhu said, we have all participated in murders and what not since time immemorial. But in terms of time immemorial, 20 years ago is a split second ago and if someone told me that a devotee had been reformed and on the right path for a split second, all glories to him but I wouldnt consider it reasonable to endorse that person as an official institutional exemplary spiritual guide. Better to err on the side of caution, especially in this age where hypocrisy is the rule not the exception. Ive got no objection to such people quietly performing their seva and refusing titles and positions even when offered, in my opinion that is a glorious reformation, but when they occupy positions of topmost spiritual authority, I just cant get my head around it. I just cant take them seriously. I just cant look at them.

Im starting to understand that pretty much the sole philosophical justification for such people occupying these positions is Gita verse 9.30. Is this correct or are there other justifications?

[quote][cite] mishra:[/cite]if your choice is to get a madhyama adhikari guru, it is OK for me. Others could not be satisfied with that.
question: Is Srila Prabhupada fallible (as in jiva category, tatastha-sakti.)?
If not, then is it proper to worship your madhyam guru and Srila Prabhupada at the same level?[/quote]

Worship of guru is not based on the level he is on. Its based on him being external representation of antaryami and for the development of humility.

It was certainly humbling for many to worship KS, Radhanatha admitted that it was very hard to be under him, but was it not the will of god?

[quote]Worship of guru is not based on the level he is on. Its based on him being external representation of antaryami and for the development of humility.

It was certainly humbling for many to worship KS, Radhanatha admitted that it was very hard to be under him, but was it not the will of god?[/quote]
I am amazed, truly. Level of guru is not important?
I will worship Sai Baba and will become the most humble then, and of course will be the will of God...
Thank you for the tip!!

[quote][cite] mishra:[/cite][quote]Worship of guru is not based on the level he is on. Its based on him being external representation of antaryami...[/quote]

I will worship Sai Baba and will become the most humble then, and of course will be the will of God...
Thank you for the tip!![/quote]

It has nothing to do with the level, but has everything to do with guru being in right line and not deviating. He can be uttama-uttama, madhyama-uttama, kanistha-uttama, uttama-madhyama, madhyama-madhyama and the type and level of worship by the disciple will not change just because of the level, of course he should be a vaisnava guru, Sai Baba is not a devotee, so he is not on any level...

I think we are mixing here, what shastra says (there are gurus on any level) and what you should be looking for. Shastra urges you to accept uttama adhikari, and warns you will not advance much if accepting madhyam etc.

key point in the wording of this question, "long term support"
and therefore the BG 9:30 defense does not hold by virtue of the warning Srila Prabhupada issues in His purport,
"No one should take advantage of this verse and commit nonsense and think that he is still a devotee. If he does not improve in his character by devotional service, then it is to be understood that he is not a high devotee."

so the question then becomes one of defining what is "accidental falldown" and what is "long term". and if, after knowing of k swas deviations and continuing behavior since the mid, or even the early, 1980s, whether not reacting negatively to such behavior until after the mid 1990s, and then only in furtherance of their own agenda, be that "supporting Srila Prabhupadas original mission" or not,
was "the proper course of action". that remains for each devotee to decide on their own, knowing the facts.

quote from sitapati:

"I would be careful about overemphasizing the role and position of Guru. Its that exclusive reliance on the guru and the unrealistic expectation that he is infallible that lead to the whole deviated culture of the 80s and 90s, including the Kirtanananda cult."

I find this advice very difficult to take since Srila Prabhupada clearly says in The Nectar of Instruction "Therefore a disciple should be CAREFUL to accept an uttama -adikari as a spiritual master." It seems to me that at present we have fallible spiritual masters in Iskcon, and the our philosophy is being changed to make things fit in.

[quote][cite] kes:[/cite]quote from sitapati:

I would be careful about overemphasizing the role and position of Guru. Its that exclusive reliance on the guru and the unrealistic expectation that he is infallible that lead to the whole deviated culture of the 80s and 90s, including the Kirtanananda cult.

I find this advice very difficult to take since Srila Prabhupada clearly says in The Nectar of Instruction "Therefore a disciple should be CAREFUL to accept an uttama -adikari as a spiritual master." It seems to me that at present we have infallible spiritual masters in Iskcon, and the our philosophy is being changed to make things fit in.[/quote]

Up to and including the stage of bhava, the penultimate stage of development of love of god, one can still fall down. Maharaja Bharata is the example of this. In the stage of prema one can no longer fall back.

Unless your guru is a nitya-siddha, the odds are that he is fallible.

The difference between a madhyama-adhikari and a uttama-adhikari is that a madhyama-adhikari may give up. They have faith, and they have strong scriptural knowledge. They have reason on their side, in addition to faith. A kanistha has faith, but not strong reasoning.

The weakness of the madhyama-adhikari, however, is that he relies to a certain extent on reason to support his faith, and thus he may be reasoned out of his faith, especially by his own mind if it wants to justify an anartha.

An uttama-adhikari, however, is beyond reasons. Heres an example of an uttama-adhikari: a reporter asks Srila Prabhupada, "What would you do if you found out that Krishna wasnt God?" Srila Prabhupada smiles and replies: "I would do the same thing, because Im happy."

An uttama-adhikari may fall down, or be seen to fall down, but this is prarabdha-karma or special arrangement of the Lord for his purification, and he does not give up his determination.

I think the question, in the case of Radhanatha Swamis eligibility to hold an official position, is more a social one. My personal reading of him is that he is sincere, and capable of giving good guidance in the application of the process. The question is really one of "what will people think?"

The fact is that most ISKCON gurus come from an incredibly sinful and disqualified personal background according to the Vedic standard. Again, we have to use discriminating power. Categories are there to aid us in discrimination if it is difficult to discriminate at that level. And thats what the official rubber stamp is - its a category to aid you to discriminate. However, even the GBC, who do the rubber stamping, freely admit that its ultimately up to you and at your own risk. They admit that the official GBC endorsement is not a guarantee.

If you have doubts then stay away. Find someone that you have no doubts in. Ultimately my realization is that we know that Srila Prabhupada isnt going to fall down, so repose your faith in him, and connect yourself with a serious advanced practitioner who is following him and can aid you to balance out the insincerity that creeps in and makes us blind to our own faults and mistakes.

Thats the role of guru. As Kripamoya explained recently, its like a doctor and the nurses. Srila Prabhupada is the doctor, the current ISKCON gurus are like nurses, helping with the administration of the treatment plan given by the doctor.

[quote][cite] mishra:[/cite]if your choice is to get a madhyama adhikari guru, it is OK for me. Others could not be satisfied with that.
question: Is Srila Prabhupada fallible (as in jiva category, tatastha-sakti.)?
If not, then is it proper to worship your madhyam guru and Srila Prabhupada at the same level?[/quote]

Srila Prabhupada always presented himself as fallible and fallen. He said: "The difference between my disciples and me is that I am always afraid of maya, and they are not."

Read the sangalog.blogspot.com letters for this month around these days where he chastises Kirtanananda Swami 40 years ago. Srila Prabhupada definitely was in the category of jiva soul, and he strongly objected to those who preached otherwise, such as Brahmananda, Visnujana, and Subal at the infamous NV Janmastami.

The idea that Srila Prabhupada is saktyavesa-avatara was first disclosed by Srila B.R. Sridhar Swami. Saktya-vesa is a jiva who is embued with a specific potency of the Lord to perform a particular mission. In the case Srila Prabhupada, Srila Sridhar Maharaja considered him to be a saktayavesa of Nityananda-sakti, the potency of Lord Nityananda, to reach out to the most fallen.

According to Sri Krishna Bhajanamrita all Vaisnavas are holy, just as all waves on the Ganga, no matter what size they are, are holy.

At the same time, different Vaisnavas embody different strengths, or amounts of divine potency. One should give appropriate worship to Vaisnavas of different spiritual potency, worshiping superiors first and more opulently.

If one cannot discriminate between them due to lack of discriminating power, then one should simply consider them all holy. This is the conclusion of Sri Narahari Sarkar.

In this case, I would say that the current ISKCON gurus are not on the same level as Srila Prabhupada, and their worship should be less. Thats the official ISKCON doctrine and the major practice as I have seen it implemented.

From the comments of Sitapati, it seems the ritvik philosophy is perhaps correct.

I do not know what to make of statements like "Srila Prabhupada always presented himself as fallible and fallen". Looks like we take the words of a all humble pure devotee as true when he says that, but then we dismiss other of his statements like:
"One should not become a spiritual master unless he has attained the platform of uttama-adhikuc0u257 ru299 . A neophyte Vaisu803 nu803 ava or a Vaisu803 nu803 ava situated on the intermediate platform can also accept disciples, but such disciples must be on the same platform, and it should be understood that they cannot advance very well toward the ultimate goal of life under his insufficient guidance. Therefore a disciple should be careful to accept an uttama-adhiku257 ru299 as a spiritual master."
http://nectarofinstruction.com/5/en

Looks to me like "selective hearing".

[quote][cite] kes:[/cite]From the comments of Sitapati, it seems the ritvik philosophy is perhaps correct.[/quote]

Kes, Ritvik-vada, which is more than a philosophy but is also a social and organizational doctrine, is based on a kernel of truth.

The guru should always feel themselves to be nothing more than a stand in for their own guru. "I have no personal qualification except that I am following the orders of my guru." Srila Prabhupada expressed this inner sentiment out loud on many occasions.

This is the internal mood of a devotee who is discharging the service of guru. Having this internal mood makes them a transparent via medium. Because this was missing in the Zonal Acaryas, the Ritvik-vada has developed as an external means of enforcing this idea. A guru should internally have a ritvik conception ("I am simply representing my guru, who is the real source of mercy"), and the external system should follow our tradition.

Misra,

Your confusion appears to me to arise from the definition that you are using for the term "uttama-adhikari".

Please share what you understand this term to mean, and we can see if this is the cause of apparent contradiction for you.

I think the easiest thing is to pull a definition of uttama adhikari, their qualities and how they act personally in all humbleness.
The problem I find with your statements above (not you) is how to apply jnana into vijnana: the philosophy in our practical lives.
If one takes the humble statements of the pure devotee as a proof of their limited scope and then it translates that to the current gurus, isnt that kind of strange sleight of hand to explain OUR famous real problems?
In any case why you quote Srila Prabhupadas humble statement? To back up what exactly? Please explain.

Misra, without a precise definition of uttama-adhikari, using it in a philosophical discussion will lead to confusion.

Your original question was:

"question: Is Srila Prabhupada fallible (as in jiva category, tatastha-sakti.)?"

The answer to this question is: "He is in jiva category". Supporting evidence for this is Prabhupadas insistence that this was the case and his expulsion of Visnujana Swami et al, after the NV Janmastami when they preached that he was not.

We know that jiva is tatastha-sakti, meaning "marginal potency", with the potential to fall down - fallible. I have quoted Srila Prabhupadas statement: "The difference between myself and my disciples is that I am afraid of maya, and they are not". While his point here was that he was more realistic about the situation (realism = humility), it also reinforces that he is jiva-tattva, fallible and subordinate to the Lords saktis such as maya-sakti.

My point about Srila Prabhupada presenting himself as fallen is this: he presented himself always as sadhana / krpa-siddhi - always dependent on his perfection on the mercy of his spiritual master and his strict adherence to the process of Krishna Consciousness and the instructions of his guru. He never claimed he was nitya-siddha and independently perfect. He always said things like: "my only qualification is that I have strictly followed the instructions of my spiritual master." He never said: "My qualification is that I am eternally perfect, and always have been."

So Srila Prabhupada taught us to see him in this way. As long as we remain connected to that line in the same way he did, we are in the line of perfection. There is no other example of independent perfection to follow in the line of Srila Prabhupada. No one can become perfect independent of the line of guru and still claim to be following Srila Prabhupada.

So perfection in our line means strict adherence to our guru-varga - the "internal ritvik conception" - "Gee, Im so unqualified personally, lucky I have such a guru who connects me, and others who take shelter of me, to the line of divine descent". That was Srila Prabhupadas mood, that was how he presented himself, that was how he asked and instructed his followers to see him, and that was how he wanted them to propagate our line of disciplic succession.

Many took direct initiation from Srila Prabhupada-I dont know the exact figures:5000?]helped by assistants in some cases,who performed the ceremony and even chose the names of the devotees.The reason was that Srila Prabhupada was constantly on travel,but relied on his disciples to make new ones.From these 5000,how many are left practicing Krsna Consciousness?

Maybe we forget that going up to the top of of the ladder of devotional service is not for the masses,but only for a few?Still everyone is gradually advancing,even if we stumble in our sadhana,make mistakes but the big problem is those who are in top positions of the Movement,and obviously ,have not understood or do not wish to understand the orders of the Founder Acarya,but prefer to speculate their own ways of management,profit from the assets difficultly earned and rich disciples donations,while full time devotees are decreasing and large sections of the planet ignored,due to mismanagement.

you make an incorrect thread llike this:

Srila Prabhupada = jiva (clear enough for all) = sadhana-krpa siddha (because he said it) = current spiritual masters position.

You say "He never claimed he was nitya-siddha". Strange thing if he would so. And now you take his words as proof of his position?

There are 2 points of view: the absolute statement of the shastra and how one sees oneself. Mixing them is what causes confusion.
If the materialist sees himself as very advanced, does that prove that he is? Apply same with humble devotees of the Lord.

That was my point, you are taking a personal humble statement from Srila Prabhupada to describe his position and in turn prove your point.
Do you do the same with everyone? You apply as proof of their position what they think of themselves?

By your statements, you seem convinced that Srila Prabhupada is a sadhana siddha. His actions and character proof otherwise.
By downsizing others you cant gain some hold. No.

It is a fact that your spiritual advancement is bound to that of your spiritual master and you cannot advance more than he is.

Dont claim you are following Srila Prabhupada in saying he was an nitya-siddha.

You either follow Prabhupada and accept him as he presented himself and asked us to accept him (Prabhupada As He Is), or you go your own way.

There is great philosophical danger in "glorifying" Prabhupada in ways he never taught us to. Something to do with advancing more than your spiritual master..?

If it was good enough for Prabhupada to present himself one way, I will not become so great that I will present him another way. That is called ati-vada, becoming more advanced than the spiritual master.

so you are in the line of the ones that wanted to drag Srila Bhaktisiddhantas body around the town, cause otherwise you will be offensive, not following his orders. Come on. If you take all humble statements of our acaryas about themselves as their instructions and proof of their position, then you are bound to have a difficult path in devotional service. That is my humble view.

Prabhu, the other thing is that I do not equate Prabhupada with the current spiritual masters position. Thats an artifact of your own thinking.

The point is that Prabhupada presented that we could all follow the process he followed and get the same result.

Its like Jesus said: "Become like me."

Modern Christians will say that: "No-one can be like Jesus." Thats philosophically incorrect, and not what Jesus himself taught, and asked from his followers.

Everyone has the potential to achieve the perfection that Srila Prabhupada demonstrated, and thats what we have to do, following in his footsteps.

Now, where each person is relatively in doing that is one thing, and Im not making any judgement calls on that here, simply spelling out the philosophical framework.

Misra, you are referring to Gaura Kishore das Babaji.

No, I dont have anything to do with those people - they wanted the body to make money from it - they were not interested in following any instructions.

They didnt spend any time studying them and carefully working out a coherent framework from them that was internally consistent and that could be applied to explaining practical reality from a philosophical perspective. Rather they preferred emotive arguments and demonizing people who didnt agree with them.

Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati, on the other hand, carefully studied the instructions of Srila Gaura Kishore das Babaji and put them into practice. Thats more the example that I like to take inspiration from.

I think nowadays the mood is mainly the following: To downsize the greatness of Srila Prabhupada, using such things as his view of himself, doubting the power of his books, etc and exaggerating the qualities of the current "acaryas". These seem to me go strangely hand by hand. And next time your spiritual master says he is fallen or something humble about himself, please take it literally, not as a product of his vaishnava character. Perhaps if he insists on being fallen (out of humility) you must consider abandon him. (to better follow his instructions).
(This comment is for the sake of argument, not a personal balance)

So to leave the stereotypical arguments and reducing things down to emotive pop categories behind for a moment, Id like to get back to a more rigorous philosophical way of approaching the situation.

In addition to "uttama-adhikari" we also need to define "fallible". Reading over this I can see the word being used in at least three different contexts:

Jiva-tattva: "fallible" - means that they can fall under the influence of maya. Either through their own free will (our philosophical explanation of our entrance to the srsti-lila) or by the will of the Lord (Jaya and Vijaya).

Kanistha-adhikari / Madhyama-adhikari: "fallible" - could even give up the process of Krishna Consciousness

Uttama-adhikari: "fallible" (up to and including the stage of bhava) - will never give up the process of Krishna Consciousness, but can be observed to have difficulty along the way (example: Maharaja Bharata). You should get a spiritual master from at least this category, and Id say most present ISKCON spiritual masters are here.

Uttama-adhikari in prema (jivan-mukta): "infallible" - the person is in the nitya-siddha platform. Personally I consider Srila Prabhupada to belong to this category, and history would seem to support this. We know he will never fall down. We cannot be sure about anyone else who is still manifest.

Jivan-mukta refers to a person who is in their nitya-siddha state of consciousness but still associated with a material body which is a product of prarabdha-karma.

As I understand "adhikara" (literally "right holder", sometimes translated as "eligibility) it refers to the level of development of sraddha. A person who is uttama-adhikari has sraddha or faith that transcends reliance on social or rational factors. They can be the first one there and the last one there. They are so convinced that they cannot be unconvinced, by anything. They dont give up even when everyone else bloops and the whole process is scientifically proven to be wrong.

A person who is uttama-adhikari has direct experience beyond arguments of logic and scripture, beyond social tradition. As they develop in the stages of love of God, the weeds (anarthas) remaining in their heart are progressively removed and their inherent prema is revealed.

So we will find uttama-adhikaris who are situated at different stages of development, from anartha-nivrtti through to prema. The reference in Bg. 9.30 to the determination of the sadhaka is a reference to his sraddha or adhikara. One who is uttama-adhikari is certain to achieve the goal eventually, because he is fixed and will not deviate from his intention of achieving perfection. Only time separates him from this goal.

So the injunction to take an uttama-adhikari as a spiritual master means to get someone who is so convinced that inspite of the mistakes of others in the movement, in spite of their own mistakes, they just humbly keep on keepin on with the process, secure in their faith that this is the way to achieve perfection.

That is my understanding.

OK, a personal comment:

There are ISKCON gurus that I have observed and said: "Ill stay away from that guy."

Some have publicly had difficulties, others continue in their service.

As I said, the GBC stamp is no guarantee. Its up to you to be able to discriminate. Dont become angry and reject everything blindly because you accepted, or see people accepting blindly. Become qualified to be a bona-fide disciple by being able to tell who is a bona-fide guru.

after all this explanation that we can copy and paste from various places, your conclusion is that anybody that stays in ISKCON despite all, is in one of the categories of uttama adhikari. The inception is, all that were somehow in the institution and are now outside are NOT uttama adhikaris by definition. And if we abound in that we can even begin to think that there are only uttama adhikaris within the institution. Bravo
To make it simple: You think that Srila Prabhupada was fallible and somehow in the same level of the current spiritual masters. You will never say directly, but all your words point to it. If THAT is what your spiritual master is teaching you, albeit in a covered form, I would quit him immediately.

Dear Misra Prabhu,

A request. According to Vedic standards of debate the way to counter argue is to say:

"What you say is... is that correct?"

"Yes."

"OK, so my point is..."

Rather than saying: "What you are saying is (something that I am thinking) so therefore..."

In this case I do not equate the process of Krishna consciousness with an institution, which you have mistakenly done here, and then ascribed it to me.

Within ISKCON they are institutions within institutions. You can participate in different yatras, you can participate in different groups within yatras. There are many leaders, many moods, many organizational styles.

So you can move around in ISKCON to find somewhere where you are comfortable. Or you can hang out at home and visit your local temple, or start your own sanga, or open your own center. Whatever you want. The point is that you dont make the mistake of thinking that the social tradition or an institutional organization is the process. Thats the mistake of the kanistha-adhikari. He cannot separate form from substance because of a lack of developed discrimination.

As far as being able to copy and paste this explanation from various places, if you take the time to actually process it youll find some value in it, and no you cant copy and paste it from anyone except here. I know you didnt read it because in the last one I placed (according to my personal perception) Srila Prabhupada and current ISKCON spiritual masters in two different categories.

Please dont keep restating what I say, and misrepresenting it.

Your point, if I understand it, is that you think I am saying Srila Prabhupada and the current ISKCON spiritual masters are on the same level. Please correct me if this is wrong.

If I am right, and this is what you are saying, then I have to say, "Sorry prabhu, thats not what Im saying. Please read it again."

Here are a couple of blatant examples to refute your assertion: "To make it simple: You think that Srila Prabhupada was fallible and somehow in the same level of the current spiritual masters. You will never say directly, but all your words point to it.

What Sita-pati actually said in the conversation:

"In this case, I would say that the current ISKCON gurus are not on the same level as Srila Prabhupada, and their worship should be less. Thats the official ISKCON doctrine and the major practice as I have seen it implemented."

"Uttama-adhikari in prema (jivan-mukta): "infallible" - the person is in the nitya-siddha platform. Personally I consider Srila Prabhupada to belong to this category, and history would seem to support this. We know he will never fall down. We cannot be sure about anyone else who is still manifest."

Prabhu, are you even bothering to read what Im writing? :-)

All is said on my part about this. I guess we both have to reread our points and hope we have learned something. Haribol!

....back to the question...

Maybe we can answer the question using Krpamoya prabhus analogy:

What is the position of a nurse who has knowingly given long term proactive support to a doctor who was engaged in severe and sustained malpractice, and who continued providing that support after the doctor had his membership disqualified from the Governing Medical Association?

What qualities/achievement/remorse should the nurse demonstrate before they are considered competent to practice again?

What qualities/achievement/remorse should the nurse demonstrate before be allowed membership back into the Governing Medical Association?

What qualities/achievement/remorse should the nurse demonstrate before they should hold significant positions in the Governing Medical Association and amongst the general medical fraternity?

How can one give long term support to serious criminals and still become a GBC or guru? thats a " no-brainer ", just go ahead and support them,who is going to say anything about it?

Arent we all a bunch of serious criminals for being in the material world in the first place.

The question is too vague.

Yes, the question is a bit vague. I was hoping to try and understand the dynamics behind such a situation as well as any sastric support for it. So far I havent learned much about the dynamics that could lead to such a situation, and sastrically Gita 9.30 seems to be the main support for allowing such a situation.

Deena, you might get more clarity in your question if you have more clarity on why you are asking it. You cant separate the questioner from the question and the possibility of having it answered satisfactorily.

What you are seeking is to satisfy something within yourself through asking this question. Its not the answer to the question that you seek, but the satisfaction of that thing. When you know what that thing is, then you will be able to find the answer you are looking for.

Its pretty zen, but thats whats going on.... :-)

In fact, that seems to be whats going on with a few questions here...

[quote][cite] mishra:[/cite]You say "He never claimed he was nitya-siddha". Strange thing if he would so. And now you take his words as proof of his position? [/quote]

Number of previous acaryas have done it. Nothing strange about it. Books were written about it SGGDipika for example. Strange..

Saktyavesa has quite a broad definition range. E.g.:

- preaching empowerment:

Generally the eternal associates of the Lord in the spiritual sky do not come to the material world. Sometimes they come, however, by the order of the Lord'97not to hold any administrative post, but to associate with the Lord in person or to propagate the message of God in human society. Such empowered representatives are called 'e7akty'e4ve'e7a-avat'e4ras, or incarnations invested with transcendental power of attorney. (SB 3.5.21p.)

The Caitanya-carit'e4m'e5ta states that in the Age of Kali the only spiritual function is to broadcast the holy name of the Lord, but this function can be performed only by one who is actually empowered by Lord K'e5'f1'eba. The process by which a devotee is thus empowered is called 'e4ve'e7a, or sometimes it is called 'e7akty-'e4ve'e7a. (CC 1.10.59p.)

- srsti/pralaya empowerment:

Since Lord 'c7iva is in charge of annihilation, why should he be approached for protection, which is given by Lord Vi'f1'ebu? Lord Brahm'e4 creates, and Lord 'c7iva annihilates, but both Lord Brahm'e4 and Lord 'c7iva are incarnations of Lord Vi'f1'ebu and are known as 'e7akty'e4ve'e7a-avat'e4ras. They are endowed with a special power like that of Lord Vi'f1'ebu, who is actually all-pervading in their activities. Therefore whenever prayers for protection are offered to Lord 'c7iva, actually Lord Vi'f1'ebu is indicated, for otherwise Lord 'c7iva is meant for destruction. Lord 'c7iva is one of the 'e9'e7varas, or the controllers known as 'e7akty'e4ve'e7a-avat'e4ras. Therefore he can be addressed as having the qualities of Lord Vi'f1'ebu. (SB 8.7.21p.)

What empowerment has to do with being nitya-siddha?

another point regarding the "transfer of funds", it did not happen as per the indictment. radhanath collected the laxmi from dharamatma and brought it to k swas house, where k swa counted it, thereby putting his fingerprints on it (as were radhanaths and dhars) and the following morning radhanath delivered it to his center in kent, ohio where the assassins were hastily trying to plot an escape.
they were arrested as they went to the bank at 9 AM to transfer the cash into travellers checks but they had been followed for the entire time BECAUSE THE FBI HAD SET SULOCAN UP TO BE KILLED BY NV including allowing kuladri and gaura shakti to look through and tape record the contents of sulocans personal diary that had been locked up with his other personal effects on his arrest for the weapons possession. the assassination of sulocan, orchestrated by the US government and carried out by randall gorby and the wheeling FBI office, using the NV devotees as pawns in their game, was a brain child of ron reagans attorney general, edwin meese in their plan to remove all cults with membership of more than 25 people who they saw as a threat to the american lifestyle. after the 20 year time period, all these records should be available under the freedom of information act.

[quote][cite] janmastami das:[/cite]THE FBI HAD SET SULOCAN UP TO BE KILLED BY NV after the 20 year time period, all these records should be available under the freedom of information act.[/quote]

I would be interested to see these records. It has been 20 years. Will you look these up, Janmastami Prabhu?

If I was a devotee and did what it is being said here, granted by ignorance or fanaticism or whatever, I wouldnt dare to initiate anybody and/or accept honors. Not even on the thought of helping others or on the plea to serve Srila Prabhupadas mission, cause to be consequent with oneself is the prime duty of a person, what to speak of a vaishnava. And of course he would get my support in the sense that we all can commit mistakes, but not my allegiance and acknowledgment as being authority, that would be violence on my part.

Yeap, its better to be a pot-washing bhakta, but then again you will be blamed of not doing anything when you could have saved others...

Hrishikesh asked:
I would be interested to see these records. It
has been 20 years. Will you look these up,
Janmastami Prabhu?

response: i have neither the time, the ability, the facility, nor the training to do this,
but with all the lawyers there are in ISKCON, and as well as ISKCON pays them for their
"services", im sure many of them will step forward and defend against this
very real threat that has faced ISKCON for over three decades. wouldnt that be as
pleasing to Srila Prabhupada for them to do that rather than just visit for prasadam?
perhaps it is as turncoat FBI informants have reported, the FBI feels that the
"Hare KRSNA"s dont pose a threat to anyone but themselves. this would be the perfect
opportunity to turn the tables on these crooked lawyers masquerading as leaders and the
opportunity is there for some individual or group of individuals to expose the long
sensed connection between the Hare KRSNAs of ISKCON and the CIA. it would be very interesting

Most of the public are illiterates,worshippers of anything and anyone,as long as it shines or wear religious clothing,together with philantropic activities:example is Sai baba,that millions worship even if theres big suspicion/proofs of sex scandals and misappropriation of funds.This is even seen more in India,or less connected countries,but in USA and Europe,its more difficult to cheat as people are more intelligent and scrutinizing,thus explaining the desertion of temples of America and Europe after the fall of gurus.Iskcon survives by the support of local hindus in such countries,and flourish in India.
The recent discovery of the Documents of Management by Srila Prabhupada may revolutionise the whole movement,as it is the instructions of the Founder Acarya for his beloved Society.So we should support those who are working to implement HDGs instructions.

[quote][cite] janmastami das[/cite]perhaps it is as turncoat FBI informants have reported, the FBI feels that the
"Hare KRSNA"s dont pose a threat to anyone but themselves. this would be the perfect
opportunity to turn the tables on these crooked lawyers masquerading as leaders and the
opportunity is there for some individual or group of individuals to expose the long
sensed connection between the Hare KRSNAs of ISKCON and the CIA. it would be very interesting[/quote]

Based on the information I had many years ago from a mid-level counter-intelligence officer, as well as from direct personal observations of several fake name passports used by people connected to NV, the link between highly placed ISKCON devotees and CIA appears to be very, very likely.