Pariprashnena — Q&A Archive

I am not trying to attack you personally. I just feel that devotees in general are not able to relate to others problems. Repeating Prabhupadas words is fine if the time & place calls for it.

BG 17.15 - Austerity of speech consists in speaking words that are truthful, pleasing, beneficial, and not agitating to others, and also in regularly reciting Vedic literature.

Internal unity. Creating disunity (divide and rule) by politics, heresies, etc. is one of the main asuric agendas. More on these, etc.:

http://www.veda.harekrsna.cz/bhaktiyoga/opponents.htm

Centralization and burocratic tendencies. I think that blocks the local development and plungs us in a corporate religion nightmare.

Not enough "trinad api sunicena..."

I think helping devotees with their "real life" issues. I think the devotees are too out of touch with the common mass of people. This is also desired, we dont want to be part of the mass, but how can we relate in real terms with them. If a drug addict came to the temple and wanted help, how would we treat him?

I would have to say that the most important issue affecting ISKCON right now is:

There is a trend to want to relativize Srila Prabhupadas absolute position. For instance, someone might argue "Well, Srila Prabhupada wasnt a fully liberated soul" (which, by the way, is a very demoniacally offense statement, but there are actually "devotees" who think like that). And, using the above logic, that means that we can interpret Srila Prabhupadas statements in our own way, since everything has become relative.

For instance, Srila Prabhupada wrote in one purport "The homosexual appetite of one man for another man is demoniac and not for any sane male", which makes it pretty clear that homosexuality is not acceptable in our Vaisnava siddhanta. But, you have people who may directly, or indirectly question Srila Prabhupadas absolute position by giving their own interpretation of his words, and speaking their own ideas about these issues, instead of simply accepting Srila Prabhupadas absolute authority on the issue. We have also seen a few posts on this forum that fall into this category too. Their faith in Srila Prabhupada is not complete, total surrender. They are still holding on to their own ideas. And the only way that they can morally justify holding on to their previous conditioned ideas is to RELAVITIZE Srila Prabhupadas absolute position.

See, if one part of his teachings are "relativized", then what is stopping anyone from trying to "relativize" any other section of his teachings? Anyone with a little foresight can foresee the massive implications this could have on our movement, and especially on the philosophical foundation of our movement.

HH Radhanath Swami said in one class that a great problem is that people read our books and say "Great Philosophy" But they may come to see the devotees or the temple and say "But its not practical."

So practicing what we preach is most effective. It is one thing to call a homosexual a demon and another to help them if they want it. We can easily have a group of proud devotees, but what benefit is that.

Prabhupada as it is is fine, is that the highest, to talk like Prabhupada? Prabhupada said what he did with a depth of compassion as well.

Amalagaura:
You post has a few disturbing undertones. One undertone is that anyone who simply repeats what Prabhupada taught is "fanatical", or "extremist". What you are actually doing, is calling Srila Prabhupada a fanatic. Of course, they would never come out openly and say that, but they feel fine "kicking the dog" instead of kicking the master, simply for repeating the words of the master.

It is interesting that you seem to automatically lump me in with the "fanatical" category, due to your statement "group of proud devotees". Perhaps I too hold the compassionate position that you yourself hold? I have read Radhanath Maharajas essays on caring for devotees, and agree completely with him.

Amalagaura:
I agree completely with you. If a homosexual man decided to join our temple, I would personally take interest in being his friend, trying to help him, supporting him, helping him deal with his problem. Srila Prabhupada did not reject homosexuals, but he did ask them to give up their homosexuality.

I am not some kind of childish blind fanatic who would simply tell him "Youre a demon! Get out of here!".

If we justify homosexuality as an acceptable form of behavior within ISKCON, that will require openly rejecting Srila Prabhupadas statements on this subject. And once one aspect of his teachings is relativized like that, nothing else will remain absolute, and thus completely open to interpretation. We have already seen this practically done with the "womens issue" a few years ago.

Your point about devotees not being able to relate to one another is certainly valid, and I agree with you. We have the most personalist philosophy in the world. I too would like to see better Vaisnava relationships, starting with my own.

But you speak of "it is okay to repeat Prabhupadas words" in somewhat of an apologetic tone. Why should we have to apologize for repeating Srila Prabhupadas words? Forgive me, but since when has it become politically incorrect to repeat Prabhupadas words, out of fear of being labeled a "fanatic", "extremist", "conservative", "orthodox", etc? This is exactly what I mean when I talk about the subtle trend towards relativizing Srila Prabhupadas absolute authority on all issues of morality, philosophy, culture, etc.

Has it become unpopular to quote Srila Prabhupadas teachings on a relevant subject?

Most important social issue in ISKCON today is :
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

How to minimise and avoid Vaisnava aparadhas.

Krsna loves his devotees very much, and when devotees are throwing stones at each other,
they forget they are doing so , in Krsnas Glasshouse.

your humble servant, with no qualifications.
PMV

It is true, there is a very popular idea today, that we should care for devotees and such. I fully support such ideas.

But what good is all of our so called "care and compassion" if we cant even chant 16 rounds or follow the four regulative principles? Do we use "care" as an excuse to not be strict anymore? What good does all of our external niceness do, if we have no inner purity?

The idea that we should all be nice to each other, and never instruct each other is a strange idea. Then we wont follow strictly anymore, and as a result, we will have a movement that may externally look nice, but with no bliss.

True, it is easier to simply sit back and never correct anyone, and who knows, people might even think you have saintly character. They might actually believe that you have "compassion". Although real compassion is to give people Krishna consciousness, and not to cheat them by not giving it to them. To not give it to them by simply smiling, saying "Yes, its all okay, Im okay, youre okay", instead of correcting their misconceptions so that they can make spiritual advancement.

I guess it really just depends on your definition of "aparadha". Are you committing an "aparadha" by correcting someones philosophical misconceptions? Would it be better to let them go on with their wrong ideas, instead of correcting them with the right idea? That sounds a lot like the modern idea that parents have, to not discipline their children out of fear of hurting their feelings. It sounds like a good idea. But what is the practical result of it? Their children grow up to be spoiled brats with absolutely no discipline, completely disrespectful towards their parents. So this idea that "Im okay, youre okay" is simply another foolish idea based on modern demoniac social ideaologies.

One other point. How puffed actually are we? If we are actually thinking "I am a Vaisnava, and that person has committed an aparadha against me by disagreeing with me", honestly, we need to analyze ourself and recognize the extreme nature of our arrogance. As for my humble self, I cannot claim to be a Vaisnava. I am merely trying to become the servant of the servant of a Vaisnava. Therefore, there is no such thing as an "aparadha" against me, because I am already so fallen.

Is it an "aparadha" to disagree with someone? If so, you will need to re-educate me, because I never remember reading that in Srila Prabhupadas books.

There is still value in niceness and compassion even if someone does not chant 16 rounds.

Who said that "care and compassion" means "everything goes"? E.g. in the system of Radhanatha M. everyone is cared for and has a mentor/guide. The whole concept of nama-hatta (which is the future of Vaishnavism, as far as I can ascertain) is about encouraging everyone to "do something and raise your standard with the help of others" instead of "do everything at once". These are different concepts (pravritti/layman and nivritti/ascetic) and both have their place in the Vaishnava society.

Your criticism of modern education and family values based on impersonalism is to the point.

Thank you Veda for the last post. You made a point about the flipside of what I was trying to say.

Radhanath Maharajas plan for caring and counseling is very good, and I found myself agreeing with it fully.

I guess the whole point of my post was to make a point that we shouldnt stress "care" over "strictness". But, after reading Radhanath Maharajas essay, I realized that the devotees over in Chowpatty are extremely strict. So, it is true, both can exist in paralell. No need for traditionalists, conservatives, liberals, modernists to worry. So its not that only brahmacaris and sannyasis should be strict, but all ashrams, whether they are living inside the temple, or outside, are expected to follow the same strict standards. Radhanath Maharaja, in his great genius and compassion, has figured out a way for it to work, and the proof is Chowpatty- one of the highest quality temples in the world, especially in terms of quality of person.

Also, your statement "The whole concept of nama-hatta (which is the future of Vaishnavism, as far as I can ascertain)" is certainly true, and there is nothing wrong in it. But, it does raise quite a serious question- What do we do with the people who want to become fully surrender full-time devotees?

Amalagaura:

I recently found a very nice letter from Jayadvaita Maharaja that deals with one point you had raised in your previous posts:

"Prabhupada said what he did with a depth of compassion as well. "

The full letter by Jayadvaita Swami can be found here: http://akincanaforum.eponym.com/blog/_archives/2006/11/30/2541329.html

I will go ahead and take the liberty to quote here the main gist of his letter:

Srila Prabhupada too, as another member of this conference has
noted, was not unlimitedly acquiescent and accommodating. The
Srila Prabhupada of Unlimited Understanding and Accommodation is a
product of post-1977 mythology.

How a gay rights leader became straight
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=56487

Vaishnavas are hard like thunderbolt and soft like a rose.

Amalagaura prabhu,

I am not exactly sure how the news article you posted fits into the discussion we are having here. To be honest, I do not see what the relevance is. But, aside from that.

I am going to take the liberty to assume that you believe that the statement "Vaisnavas are hard like thunderbolt and soft like a rose" means that Srila Prabhupada was "all encompassing and all understanding". But, as Jayadvaita Swami pointed out, "The Srila Prabhupada of Unlimited Understanding and Accommodation is a product of post-1977 mythology."

There are certain points that Srila Prabhupada never accommodated for, such as illicit sex, meat eating, intoxication, and gambling. The popular idea nowadays is that Prabhupada was simply a sweet old man, and yes, he was. But modern advocates seem to have conviently forgotten how heavy he was on certain points. One of the points that have been forgotten is how extremely heavy he was on the subject of loose association between men and women. But that is a whole other topic.

Do you believe that Srila Prabhupada would have tolerated any kind of homosexual behavior in his disciples?

Sorry if it was confusing, my two comments were not related, the article was just related to the gay subject and the quote is relating to the behavior of Vaishnava Acharyas.

I am not here to argue, I am here to discuss, I apologize if it is irrelevant. If it is irrelevant one may disregard so as not to waste more time.

Amalagaura prabhu:

Thank you for the kind response.

I edited my previous post, so you might want to re-read it and re-edit your reply. Sorry about the double edit. Just to simplify things, the main part of my re-edited previous post is that I added a question to the end of it. I will repeat it here, for claritys sake:

Do you believe that Srila Prabhupada would have tolerated any kind of homosexual behavior in his disciples?

admin here.. looks like the original purpose of the question is being lost and progressing to a personal debate about.... anything
please open a new question about homosexuality or whatever you wish, we do not lack web space or bandwidth for that matter (yet)

Yes sir. I shall do so. Perhaps you should close this thread, close the comments section.

Perhaps you should close this thread, Admin. Close the comments, I mean.

I count only 6 items as real answers to the question. I think we should give more time, so more devotees can post their answers.

Maybe the issue is that we talk about ISKCON this ISKCON that and it really doesnt exist so much. It doesnt have so much power anyway.
People "join" iskcon but they wont get any support or help or proper training coming from iskcon. It depends more on a temple by temple basis than uppercase ISKCON.

True abhiram prabhu.

My observations living in North America is that there are only a few temples capable of giving quality training. The rest of the temples are generally householder communities. So we need to first acknowledge that this is a problem, the lack of preaching and book distribution in North America. And then we need to figure out how to revive the preaching in NA.

The solution is simple- We simply have to work hard to do it. There is no "easy" way to preach. It requires purity (that means following the regulations) and determination.

There are a few very good temples to send new bhaktas to get trained. Here are a few:

Rupanuga Vedic College in Kansas City. It is run by Danavir Goswami, and I can say that this is the best place for a new bhakta. Danavir Goswami is the creater of the Bhakta Program, by the way. I do not know if you know him or not, but Danavir Goswami is a very wonderful devotee.

San Deigo, which is run by Mahat-tattva prabhu, who is a very staunch brahmacari. It is a very good temple. Mahat-tattva is the founder of Sastra-dana, an innovative book distribution method. He is also a very wonderful devotee. There are also a few other senior brahmacaris at this temple.

New York, has a good brahmacari ashram, and resident sannyasis like Romapada Swami and Candrasekhar Swami.

Three things:

0. The change from a "temple-based" movement to a "temple with congregation" movement, to a community-based movement with temples.
1. Dealing with sexuality: gay, lesbian, bisexual, and transgendered people.
2. All the other aspects of implementing fully fledged Krishna conscious Human Life (Varnasrama-dharma).

The most important social issue that we have seen in retrospect is the SCANDALS in ISKCON.

I think we dont need to see a list here, but we also know why ISKCON was sued for millions of dollars and had to declare bankruptcy. It is not because ISKCON couldnt preach against homosex or treating women,children correctly. But because ISKCON leaders could not enforce it. Some of them tried their best but the fact that we are accepting members from all classes of degraded society is really to blame.

That is the unadulterated fact that I think we need to accept. We preach a philosophy in the stratosphere but all debauchery went on in the temples. There are COUNTLESS people who approached ISKCON with good faith and turn away when they see and hear the things that happen in ISKCON.

But the friction in ISKCON that we are witnessing on these message forums is quite clear. ISKCON is at the same time an inclusive society for people of all types to improve their lives and at the same time a place for pure brahmanas and devotees to congregate. So how to do both those things? How to have healthy grihastha community and at the same time have lifelong celibates? Prabhupada did say to be strict with ourselves, but without a higher taste that is simply not possible. It is possible for the first few years to be strict, but without a higher taste it will not last. And that higher taste means we must get love from our devotee relationships.

Thank you Prabhu Ekendra. I too had similar opinion. You have literally taken the content out of my brain before I could transform that into words.
Neelima Ghosh

The question was( and the questioner also asks for the reason why- Surprizingly the question had also been edited and hence I feel that we are not in aposition to answer the question properly)
"What do you think is the most important social issue today in ISKCON? "
I think(after reading 27 observations that we have deviated from the question), we should concentrate the social issues by ISKCON pertaining to outside and not within which we have mostly discussed. Let us introduce the cause of the society. Similar to Food for all and Akshaypatra. I am thinking on these lines and shall revert back soon to this forum. In the mean time thanking all the contributors to this question.
Neelima Ghosh

most important social issue in my opinion - not enough education taking place in our centers - mostly social clubs with little emphasis on transformation. There are brilliant exceptions to this but too many places where accepting Gaudiya philosophy is considered pretty much optional to be an upstanding member of a community.

if education is emphasized then lots of social problems will be minimized because devotees will have the understanding and framework to deal with them. in other words they will be empowered to think for themselves in spiritual life and our society will feel more like a spiritual community than a poor attempt at organized religion.

Iskcon is not a social organization:International society for Krsna consciousness,imho means to rebuild our link to Lord Krishna.

How?

1. By following the orders of the most recent Acarya,Srila Prabhupada,and his sincere disciples,who just repeat what he instructed.All others,who have deviated or is deviating must be rejected,mainly when they preach such things as 1)3 principled sadhana,2)theres no need for any genuine GBC for control against deviations,3) following his Godbrothers,which he didnt recommend etc....

"I will be eternally present in my transcendental books!"Srila Prabhupada said!

2. Put in practice his instructions,strictly,by istagosthis,on local and international level,and so,pleasing him 100%.By going independant,one is surely not pleasing His Divine Grace,although there can be apparent success.Iskcon should be a big united family,with sincere followers enthusiastically spreading the Holy names of the Lord and Srila Prabhupadas books.

By pleasing the Founder Acarya,all social issues will be automatically solved!

1. instituting the ritvik system as Prabhupada orderd.

2. dealing with the on-going child abuse.

3. paying off the Turley suit,about another $ 6,000,000.

4. finding a way to dissolve the GBC.

After instituting 1. (post-samadhi version) and 4. you cant call yourself a follower of Prabhupada anymore.

leaders and rank and file fail to see unity in diversity thus leading to criticism that can be avoided and schisms.

...why cant we ?

Prabhu Govindas108
ISKSCON and society are inseparable. We have been handling society only in the process of uplifting and improvising the objectives of ISKCON. We have to have devotees and members from the society only. Later only we have to mould them as per our requirements, needs and expectations of course by making them divinely and spiritually wiser. I consider myself as one of the devotees chosen from the society only. I am a devotee but cannot think myself separate from the society. ISKCON initially is a social organization and then only an organization to pervade Krsna cult and taking the devotees tending towards Godhead. Hari Bol

[quote][cite] Tulsiananda das:[/cite]...why cant we ?[/quote] Are you asking yourself or others?

...sorry,that was my reply to VEDA

Most of the problems in ISKCON come from the fact that the GBC has neglected Srila Prabhupadas "Direction of Management" (DOM), a legal document written in 1970 and referred to many times by Srila Prabhupada. If DOM were to be followed, ISKCON would stop being a centralized, bureaucratic institution.

[quote][cite] Neelima Ghosh:[/cite]Prabhu Govindas108
ISKSCON and society are inseparable. We have been handling society only in the process of uplifting and improvising the objectives of ISKCON. We have to have devotees and members from the society only. Later only we have to mould them as per our requirements, needs and expectations of course by making them divinely and spiritually wiser. I consider myself as one of the devotees chosen from the society only. I am a devotee but cannot think myself separate from the society. ISKCON initially is a social organization and then only an organization to pervade Krsna cult and taking the devotees tending towards Godhead. Hari Bol[/quote]

Dear Mataji,

Srila Prabhupada created Iskcon,so as to have an international body of devotees working together.Iskcon-Bangalore is an independent temple,with ritvik philosophy which is not acceptable by many vaisnavas.So,it this serious deviation not corrected,all social endeavours may look ok,but the Founders instruction is not being respected,ie accountability to a controlling body,the GBC.
Getting funds from the government can be tricky,as they impose their conditions:
Do not offer the bhoga to "idols"....put eggs on the menu[for midday meals]
As temple business is quite a profitable one,Srila Prabhupada gave formal instructions how to go about it,in order not to make it a private business,get attached to it,and so lose any opportunity to get salvation!
It is well known that Indian government officials are corrupt and allow people like Sai Baba and others to cheat the population,as they get their share of the donations!
Being checked by the government is not a safe practice,but by a bonafide committee of vaisnavas is better,though I agree that there are also improvements to be done by the current commitee!