Pariprashnena — Q&A Archive

It is the consciousness rather than the body that is the agent...

Problem is the enjoying spirit in the conditioned soul.

"In the Bhagavad-gita it is said that apareyam itas tu viddhi me prakrtim param, jiva-bhutam. Every living entity is woman. Those who are thinking of becoming man, they are in illusion. Prakrti, purusa. Purusa means the bhokta, the enjoyer, and prakrti, stri, means enjoyed. Every living entity is described as prakrti. No living entity is purusa. Purusa is only Krsna."
(SP, Lecture Bhagavad-gita 7.1-3 -- Ahmedabad, December 14, 1972)

"Everyone is after woman. Woman or men, the... It is not that woman means the form of woman and man is the form of man. Woman means enjoyable and man means enjoyer. So here in this material world everyone is enjoyer. Everyone is enjoyer. Not only the man thinks "I shall enjoy the woman," the woman thinks, "I shall enjoy the man." The spirit is now to become enjoyer"
(SP, Lecture Srimad-Bhagavatam 6.1.47 -- Detroit, June 13, 1976)

Unlike mayavadis, we do not see maya as an illusion covering brahman.

Its is not.

Its sakti of saktiman. Saktiman, isvara, is the master of sakti, thus maya, does a service, that she is ashamed off, but does it well. We all know what the service is - its to keep jivas in illusion.

Shakti is female counterpart of the male purusa. Purusa is not under the control of maya, in fact He has nothing to do with the illusion shakti, maya, directly.

Form of the shakti is female and just as she is material, female bodies are. Krsna, has nothing to do with bodies or with maya.

Forms of the femaile bodies are therefore often associated with female potency of Krsna, maya.

They are not maya themselves, nor ofcourse souls that are in the bodies that are made from the elements of pradhana, all are real.

However because of being same principle as shakti (ie female) and because of functional relationship with male bodied jiva, who are historically the only writers of scriptural interpretation, they can be called "agents of maya" -- but mainly by association not in a discrimination mood.

Someone told me that Prabhupada said that once a woman becomes a devotee she is not a woman anymore, she is a devotee...

Why just women?
Its sexual life,and this can be done also with same sex....or alone!

Without control of sex life,there cant be any spiritual life:real goswamis are those who have full control of their genitals! And this starts by controlling the tongue,eating only for surviving,and not oppulent maha-prasadam daily:mainly for the sannyasa order,specially for kartika.

Men are also powerful agents of maya,by chasing matajis!

Some sects claim to do spiritual sex or tantric...but its not easily acheived.

It is said for the women, man is like the deer hunter attracting the deer with his expert calling.

It seems to me that it is the lusty consciousness for sex enjoyment, rather than the body, that is the agent of Maya.

The woman, created by the Lord, is the representation of muc0u257 yu257 , and one who associates with such mu257 yu257 by accepting services must certainly know that this is the way of death, just like a blind well covered with grass.

http://vedabase.net/sb/3/31/40/en3

[quote][cite] abhiram:[/cite]The woman, created by the Lord, is the representation of muc0u257 yu257 , and one who associates with such mu257 yu257 by accepting services must certainly know that this is the way of death, just like a blind well covered with grass.
[/quote]Do you think that devotee women are the representations of Maya? I still say that for a devotee, it is the consciousness rather then the body that is the agent of Maya.

Non-devotee women are agents of maya. Devotee women are agents of Lakshmi-devi. =>:)

So in regards to the original question put by mishra....the consciousness is the main consideration here and can be used to explain the quote in a less fanatical way without hurting peoples feelings...after all male bodied souls can be just as lusty as female bodied souls.

[quote][cite] Praveen:[/cite]Non-devotee women are agents of maya. Devotee women are agents of Lakvshmi-devi. =>:)[/quote]
IMHO, it is dangerous to qualify a whole section of the population as "agents of maya". We are supposed to be giving conditioned souls the benefit of the doubt so that they can get in the sankirtan movement.
Would you rejoice being called that just because you do not belong to a certain group? I bet there are many "agents of maya" disguised as devotees too and so even more dangerous..

Mishra: Maybe I should explain myself a little more-

When I differentiated between devotees and non-devotees I meant based on qualities of each person. In Krishna Consciousness, it is important for a woman to be chaste and submissive to her husband- she becomes like Lakshmi-devi. If she is not chaste then it is apparent that she is an "agent of maya".

I dont think I have heard any other religion talk specifically and in great detail about the qualities of a good wife like we do in Krishna Consciousness which is why I generalized it as "devotee women" but maybe it would have been better to say "chaste and submissive women are agents of Lakshmi-devi".

[quote][cite] Praveen:[/cite]Praveen: ..the qualities of a good wife like we do in Krishna Consciousness which is why I generalized it as "devotee women" but maybe it would have been better to say "chaste and submissive women are agents of Lakshmi-devi".[/quote]

i agree this in reference to the choosen husband it is, or man.. it is not all mayavis.. but Matajis i think.

Hare Krsna

The scriptures are written mainly for a male audience, so we can ignore others than heterosexual men for this question. When such a man desires to enjoy, the highest enjoyment in this world is sex life, and thus he want to enjoy with a woman. Maya provides this enjoyment by seeing to that his eyes get captured by some nice woman, and thus the woman becomes the agent of Maya. She is speaking sweet words, and acting in such a way as to attract the man more and more.

We can observe that when devotees fall down, it is generally with a woman. Actually the falldown comes first, and with it the desire to enjoy. Then maya provides enjoyment by inspiring a woman in such a way that she becomes the object of the desire of the man.

It is wrong to think that one can avoid women, to avoid falldown. Falldown comes first, and first in that stage does a woman act as an agent of maya. Sannyasis should avoid women, though.

The most fortunate, for a (heterosexual) man, to avoid maya, is to marry a nice Vaisnavi. Why? Because when a Vaisnavi wife becomes the agent of maya, when the husband has a tendency to look for enjoyment, she can help the husband in such a way that he does not fall down. A Vaisnavi as an agent of maya is very fortunate, since she will utilize the attraction the husband has for her, to preach to him and help him in Krishna consciousness. The enjoyment turns into preaching, and the falldown can be stopped. And even if there is falldown, if it is with a Vaisnavi wife, it is not very far, and she can help him getting on the right track again.

Therefore, in a devotee society, female devotees should qualify themselves to become qualified Vaisnavis protecting the man from falldown. Such a Vaisnavi become a source of all the good qualities of females, and instead of acting as agents of Maya, to pull men down, she acts like an agent of Laxmi and Sarasvati, to bring all kind of happiness and prosperity. To see a Vaisnavi as an agent of Maya in the negative sense is offensive, and when you offend a Vaisnavi, you will fall down.

Man and woman are like two roles in a play. Maya is like the director of the play of material existence. It is not that women are agents of Maya, and men not. Both are agents of the direction of Maya, and are equal in importance. And just like good actors can practically almost forget themselves, when they play their role, we have really done it. To "be in Maya" means to be a good actor, to have forgotten ourselves, and only play under the direction of Maya. We, as actors, are neutral to those roles. Sometimes we get the role of a king, sometimes of a beggar, sometimes we are white, sometimes black, sometimes men, sometimes women. All in the play of the grand play of the illusory energy under the direction of Maya.

What is this grand play? Well, a very common and important theme among humans are the meeting and separation of lovers, mostly one woman and one man. And that play is actually a copy of the meeting of Radha and Krishna. This play is an imitation of the rasa of Radha and Krishna. It is a play where we want to be the main actors and sometimes take the role of Krishna and sometimes the role of Radha. Sometimes we also want to imitate other rasas of Krishna, particularly in Dwaraka, like being a king, with a lot of servants, or even having many wifes. Or being a Queen.

Men and Women are equally important actors in that play, and we take one of those two roles. It is not that Radha is deluding Krishna against his will, or Krishna is trying to get near to Radha against her will. Likewise, in the of the play of material existence, it is not that Women trying to ensnare men against their will. Actually, criticising women for their role, indirectly is criticising Radha, as women are playing the role of Radha. To want women to do something else, is like saying that we dont like the rasa of the meeting and separation of Radha and Krishna, we dont like the femaleness of Radha. Women are not the criminals for playing the female role good. We are not either. No one is the criminal. We are all enacting the play of the meeting and separation of Radha and Krishna. And as such, we are already in Radhas and Krishnas service.

But there is a higher play. Not where we take the roles of Radha and Krishna, wanting to be them, but where we take the roles of being servants of Radha and Krishna, and support them in their play. Not in this fictional world, but in the spiritual reality. To be a devotee of Radha and Krishna means to want to take our roles in that higher play. In that play of Yogamaya we also take roles as males and females, but as cowherd boys and cowherd girls. And we play in direct service of Radha and Krishna, instead of taking turns in playing the roles of imitating Radha and Krishna in the material world.

So on no plane are women inferior to men, or more agents of Mahamaya or Yogamaya then men. It is two complementary roles, and we can either play fictional roles in the material world or in the reality of spiritual existence, where we are not playing anything else than being ourselves. Where we take directions from Yogamaya in ecstasy, and not like in the material world where we are forced to our roles by Mahamaya.

If women only were the agents of illusion, Krsna would never become Mohini murti, would he. What was his motivation I wonder, not to be the agent of maya or is it?

Again, IMHO I say for a devotee it is a matter of consciousness rather than the body.

We can see that it is a fact that the soul, conditioned by the female form, in general is more inclined to become entangled in material existence. In general, its the female embodied soul which desires to get children, a safe environment to raise them and a male body to provide and protect the family. A male embodied soul, in general, is not so much inclined towards this senario, unless he is (overly) attached to women. Than he goes along with her desires, in order to win her attention and affection. In this way, he also becomes deeper entangled in the material world and thats how women are agents of Maya.

Thats just the way material nature acts. This has nothing to do with superiority or inferiority, its just a neutral fact.
We sometimes make an issue out of it, considering the male form superior to the female, but thats only due to our bodily identification. If we do not identify with the body, than why should these facts effect our feelings?

Dear Illicit Blue

It seems to me there are no facts in the first paragraph of your post. Males are no less inclined to be entangled in material nature, the mere fact we (men) are here shows you that. We are not partially here were fully here. Fully embodied. In the Bhagavatam it seems it is the Gopis who are the ultimate devotees not the men.

I have read studies of populations in religious communities and generally there are more women than men. Women it seems are more inclined to spiritual practice than men.

I like your second paragraph better. There is no benefit to thinking men or women are higher or lower in anyway. It matters not who you are or your colour, gender, preferences, etc. If you engage in material nature instead of devotional service you will be lost for a long time, man or woman.

[quote][cite] rasa108:[/cite]

It seems to me that it is the lusty consciousness for sex enjoyment, rather than the body, that is the agent of Maya.[/quote]

I think that Rasa says it all in this line. It cant be the body it must be the mind

Male embodied souls are also inclined to become entangled in matter as long as they are not inclined to detach themselves from the attraction towards the female form. One may ask the question. "For whom is it most difficult to become detached?" For the man, to become detached from the female form or for the woman, to become detached from getting children? Isnt it a fact, that in general, men are more inclined towards renunciation than women? The woman draws the man near to her and the man, desiring to control, gets hooked up.

We cannot compare the gopis with conditioned living entities. They have nothing to do with "women".

Who was making the studies and what did they consider to be spiritual practice? Genuine yoga or new age?

If we study the first verse of Sri isopanisad,we can see that everything that emanates from the lord is COMPLETE WHOLE!
Imho,it means we are ALL complete,and not halves..to look for other separate halves.
A man can realise the highest goal of life,without the help of a woman,but for women,the help of a man is necessary:the husband becomes her guru!
The male devotee can serve his guru,and never get married,as married life means working for a family,which is very time taking and full of stress.
For those who still think married life is necessary,they may engage in this path,experimenting all its turbulences,and swear:never again!As the Bhagavatam reminds us:marriage is hell,wife is like a vampire,sucking the life of the husband,and children like hyenas,so troublesome,ungrateful and time-taking!
By serving only the Lord,one gets promoted to His Kingdom,where no material bodies exist,as well as miseries of existence.

It is more than likely that Im offensive than correct so forgive me, however i feel i should mention that when in Maya a lot of so called big men are acting the role of agents of Maya, better that any woman, Im not trying to make a subtle point about spiritual Rasa :-). Simply put one gives some responsibility in the hands of some weak hearted or envious male bodied jiva and as we have seen even in our own association the Big man will put "his-self"in the center of everyones attention and try and base everything around his faults ""Then again woman can commit no fault. It is man only that commits faults.The Mahabharata, Santi Parva)
Prubhupada said male and female is only external enjoyer and internal enjoyer and they are always changing so it may stand to reason that the former is worse of than the latter.
Hare Krsna

It seems to me...regardless of whether we are Male or Female bodied souls...we are equal in spiritual terms as part and parcel of Krsna...and Krsna it seems can offer spiritual guidance through a Male or Female embodied soul.

The original question was how to explain the statement in the scriptures that the Female embodied soul is an agent of Maya (without hurting peoples feelings)...it seems to me that its the consciousness, rather than the body, that is the agent of Maya.

ISKCON is full of wonderful female bodied devotees who do not have (or need I dare say) "the help" of a man to become Krishna Conscious. I must disagree with you on that point, Jayaradhe!

The consciousness is the result of maintaining certain desires. According to that consciousness, a particular subtle body is obtained by the soul. That subtle body, is given a particular set of senses, which are held together by the gross body.

Ultimately, one gets a body according to the consciousness. Then what is the difference between the body and the consciousness? Can we state than that the consciousness, which is acting as an agent of Maya, results in obtaining the body of a woman?

Consciousness is dynamic and can change according to our actions and desires...the body itself maybe a reflection of the consciousness but is not the origin...therefore it is not the physical body (which is what most of us identify ourselves to be) but the subtle body (mind, intelligence, ego) that is contaminated or purified.

So it seems to me that if you were explaining this particular quote, that might be a more effective way (without offending anyone).

Whatever may be contaminated, whether its the consciousness or the body, than still the statement, that the female bodily form acts as an agent of Maya to capture the souls inhabiting a male body, goes on.

The souls involved may not have the intention to act as such or even be aware of it, but that fact doesnt change the script of this world. Every single part of the cosmic machine has its function. The female bodies, also being parts of this complicated machine, also do have their particular function. Their major function is acting as agents of Maya to keep the conditioned souls engaged in Mayas service.

I can find no such quote that women are the agents of Maya

can someone post a reference to this please

[quote][cite] Illicit Blue:[/cite]The female bodies, also being parts of this complicated machine, also do have their particular function. Their major function is acting as agents of Maya to keep the conditioned souls engaged in Mayas service.[/quote]
Dont we preach on the premise that we are not the body? I would imagine that this is a better focus when explaining to a layperson about this particular quote.
"The woman, created by the Lord, is the representation of muc0u257 yu257 , and one who associates with such mu257 yu257 by accepting services must certainly know that this is the way of death, just like a blind well covered with grass." SB 3:31:40

Reference : Spoken by Mahapita Bhishma to Yudhishtira Maharaja, Anushasanika Parva Chapter 40, verses 5 - 10:

"It has been heard by us that all persons of the human race are characterised by righteousness, and that they, in course of natural progress and improvement, attain to the status of deities. This circumstance alarmed the deities. They, therefore, O chastiser of foes, assembled together and repaired to the presence of the Grandsire. Informing Him of what was in their minds, they stood silent in his presence, with downcast eyes. The puissant Grand sire having ascertained what was in the hearts of the deities, created women, with the aid of an Atharvan rite. In a former creation, O son of Kunti, women were all virtuous. Those, however, that sprang from this creation by Brahman with the aid of an illusion became sinful. The grandsire bestowed upon them the desire of enjoyment, all kinds of carnal pleasure. Tempted by the desire of enjoyment, they began to pursue persons of the other sex."

The following reference from Anushasanika Parva Chapter 43, 19 -21 is the best balanced commen sense understanding: "Amongst them [women] both kinds are to be seen, that is, those that are virtuous and those that are not so." This is consistent with Krsnas teachings in Bhagavad-gita 16.6, "O son of Prtha, in this world there are two kinds of created beings. One is called the divine and the other demoniac."

Dear friends

I still cannot find a quote that says women are the agents of Maya

I am begnning to form the opinion that it may not be true

can someone post a reference to this quote please

Iam sure this is the quote that mishra originally had in mind:

"The woman, created by the Lord, is the representation of muc0u257 yu257 , and one who associates with such mu257 yu257 by accepting services must certainly know that this is the way of death, just like a blind well covered with grass." SB 3:31:40

Purport

Sometimes it happens that a rejected well is covered by grass, and an unwary traveler who does not know of the existence of the well falls down, and his death is assured. Similarly, association with a woman begins when one accepts service from her, because woman is especially created by the Lord to give service to man. By accepting her service, a man is entrapped. If he is not intelligent enough to know that she is the gateway to hellish life, he may indulge in her association very liberally. This is restricted for those who aspire to ascend to the transcendental platform. Even fifty years ago in Hindu society, such association was restricted. A wife could not see her husband during the daytime. Householders even had different residential quarters. The internal quarters of a residential house were for the woman, and the external quarters were for the man. Acceptance of service rendered by a woman may appear very pleasing, but one should be very cautious in accepting such service because it is clearly said that woman is the gateway to death, or forgetfulness of ones self. She blocks the path of spiritual realization.