Pariprashnena — Q&A Archive

What would Srila Prabhupada say?

Type "homosex" into the Vedabase and hit the search button.

This also raises another very relevant point. You say "What would Srila Prabhupada say?" and I assume you are being facecious. But this raises the point that perhaps there are many devotees in our movement that really do not have a very good philosophical grasp on Krishna consciousness. The evidence I state for making this assumption is that two very high ISKCON leaders in the past five years have come out in support of homosexuality in ISKCON. And there was not much of a public outcry. Only one ISKCON sannyasi has protested officially. Due to the lack of public outcry, I might not be wrong when I say that perhaps many devotees really dont have a firm philosophical understanding of our Vaisnava siddhanta.

Or they are not aware of what appeared in some online forums. My crude estimate is that only about 10-20% of devotees use internet regularly for more than email.

Hare Krishna

To the best of my knowledge in Krishna Consciousness...our duty is to follow Guru, Sadhu and Sastra.

Srila Prabhupada or any acharya would not go against the conclusion of the sastras. The Satras say that sex is restricted to procreation. So that should answer any kind of inclination, straight or otherwise.

I think the suggestion given by Srila Prabhupada was to tolerate the sex desire just like we tolerate an itch. If we scratch..then we end up making it worse..create a wound...the same applies here. Correct me if I am wrong, but in some cases he asked people with such tendencies to marry a lady..and slowly get over this condition.

Like any other situation of a normal man who is actually diseased by a material condition of one kind..similarly a gay man is also diseased by a material condition of another kind....its like saying..one has cancer of the leg..and the other cancer in the hand.

Our aim should be to be compassionate to the problems of all people...but not encourage or justify them...we only try to help them get out of it...not wallow in it longer.

I hope and presume that might have been the intentions of any devotee who spoke for or against such issues.

I hope to learn from the views of other senior devotees where I may be wrong.

Very nice thoughts, MPCD prabhu.

It is very true. Srila Prabhupada did say that without being celibate, spiritual advancement is practically nil.

Hare Krishna, everyone! Dandavats!

There is no doubt, even within the gay Vaishnava community, that Srila Prabhupada forbade homosexual activity as illicit sex. The real question is how to best encourage gay and lesbian people in Krsna consciousness, whether they are celibate or in a fallen position.

Srila Prabhupada left us great examples of how to deal with homosexual devotees and guests. Many of his disciples were gay, such as Upendra dasa and Sudama Maharaja, and Prabhupada always gave them love and encouragement, both when they were celibate and also when they were fallen and struggling. Similarly, his dealings with Allen Ginsberg, even though he was openly and actively homosexual, were always very cordial and friendly.

The example cited by "mcpd" of treating a persons disease equally, whether it is cancer of the leg or cancer of the hand, is very nice. It reminded me of the following exchange between Srila Prabhupada and one of his gay disciples, Syamasundara dasa:

[May, 1976] '93One morning in Hawaii, I was standing by Srila Prabhupada'92s window overlooking his private garden when a senior disciple named Siddhasvarupa dasa came in. He began complaining about all of the '91pretty boys'92 and homosexuals in ISKCON and Srila Prabhupada just let him vent, not saying much of anything. After some time Siddhasvarupa left, not getting the reaction he had wanted. Prabhupada sat at his desk for a while. I was feeling really angry toward Siddhasvarupa but also self-conscious about my own sexuality. Prabhupada sat there quietly and in deep thought. He then looked over at me briefly and said, '91What is the difference if a person is held in this material world by a gold chain, or by a silver chain?'92 I replied, '91I don'92t know, Srila Prabhupada.'92 He continued, '91I am glad that Siddhasvarupa is chanting and reading my books, but he is always focusing on everyone else and not on the Supreme Person. That is the important thing.'92'94

(Related by Syamasundara dasa in Ashe Journal, Vol. II, no. 4)

There is also a nice link to Srila Prabhupadas exchanges with Allen Ginsberg. We would all do well to follow Prabhupadas example in this regard:

http://www.galva108.org/AllenGinsberg.html

Vaishnava das anudas,

Amara dasa

Please accept my humble obeisances Amara.

I had a question about the GALVA website.
www.galva108.org
When I looked at it, I saw pictures of Krishnas eternal lila being used in a very perverted fashion.

For instance, the top picture shows Krishna hugging another cowherd boy. Innocent enough. But to use that picture on a website that is promoting homosexuality, is to use the pictures with a very perverted innuendo.

The second picture, showing Krishna dressing as a gopi, is an innuendo used for transvestites. Do you think this is not offensive?

Third picture, shows Radha and another gopi, and is used as an innuendo for lesbianism. Do you think this is not extremely offensive?

To be honest with you, I can not even imagine what kind of sick mind could even think of using such pictures to subtly promote homosexuality and other perverted forms of sexuality. This is so blatantly demoniac, that it simply astounds me, that what kind of human being could create something like this?

With all due respect prabhu, I must respectfully ask you: Do you feel absolutely no shame in what you are doing?

Amara Prabhu,

imho, only time will tell if this person will remain ex-gay or will become ex-ex-gay. To rule out the first possibility (even by giving many failed cases as examples) means to limit the power of free will and of God. I wouldnt dare to do that. This is similar to the ISKCON gurus are fallen argument (if only one is not fallen, the argument fails).

Amara Prabhu, in your comment on Sitapati P.s article you said: "Homosexual orientation is determined by the feminization or masculinization of our brains very early during fetal development, much like left- or right-handedness."

Do you accept one-life paradigm or more lives paradigm (dharma/free-will/karma/samsara)?

is this related?
"The karma-vasanas are the accumulated residue of ones previous activities. Every material activity we perform creates a residual impression within our consciousness, which is carried with us life after life. The sum total of these impressions form our creative impetus to work."

Amara prabhu:

Your views are certainly interesting. Can you kindly explain to me how your views can be reconciled with the following statement by Srila Prabhupada:

I am very sorry that you have taken to homosex. It will not help you advance in your attempt for spiritual life. In fact, it will only hamper your advancement. I do not know why you have taken to such abominable activities. What can I say? Anyway, try to render whatever service you can to Krishna. Even though you are in a very degraded condition Krishna, being pleased with your service attitude, can pick you up from your fallen state. You should stop this homosex immediately. It is illicit sex, otherwise, your chances of advancing in spiritual life are nil. Show Krishna you are serious, if you are.
-Srila Prabhupada, letter to Lalitananda 26 May 1975

In this letter, there is no accommodation for homosexuality. In fact, the opposite stands true. "With homosex, You can not advance in spiritual life". Perhaps you filter out all of Prabhupadas relevant statements about this issue out of your worldview, and that is how you are able to justify an activity that Prabhupada was completely against. In another conversation that you have probably read, Srila Prabhupada calls Allen Ginsburg "a madman". Doesnt sound much like a compliment, nor does it sound like someone we would want to follow.

The real problem here, is that certain elements in our own movement are trying to relativize Srila Prabhupada. Thus, instead of simply accepting Srila Prabhupadas absolute authority, we can speculate and interpret him as we would like. And once we start speculating on how to interpret Prabhupada on one issue, there is no end to the amount of changes and speculations we can make, since nothing is absolute, and everything is relative. This will in turn serve to undermine the entire philosophical foundation of our movement, and will finish everything.

Bhakta Corey, homosex (an act) and homosexuality (an orientation) are two different things, just as heterosexuality and heterosex are two different things.

Have a think about the mashed up presentation youd make in condemning someone for being heterosexual (which a Iot of us are) based on cut and paste quotes about "sex life" (=heterosex). Just because youre heterosexual doesnt mean that quotes about illicit sex life are condemning you, or your identity as a person.

I have some concerns myself with the pictures and presentation on the front page of galva.org, but i think its important first to be clear yourself about the difference between homosexuality and homosex, otherwise wading into this with that misconception is liable to create more friction than harmony or understanding.

Dear Bhakta Cory,

Please accept my humble obeisances. All glories to Srila Prabhupada!

To answer your questions...

Regarding our website, its purpose is not to promote homosexuality but rather all-inclusiveness. The pictures of Krishna embracing Gopa Kumara, Krishna crossdressing, etc. are all completely transcendental and pure. Looking at them is purifying and helps turn the mind away from mundane lust to pure, spiritual love. Would you prohibit heterosexuals from looking at pictures of Krishna with the gopis or using them on their websites? Of course not--they do this all the time! I think you are simply misunderstanding our intentions for using the pictures.

Regarding your second posting, I have already addressed this in my initial message: "There is no doubt, even within the gay community, that Srila Prabhupada forbade homosexual activity as illicit sex." Our argument is not with illicit sex, but rather how to best encourage renunciation and involvement in Krsna consciousness to whatever degree possible. My personal experience has been that condemning gays, calling them demons and in general being nasty and condescending toward them does not help them become devotees. Rather, by befriending them, welcoming them into Krsna consciousness and patiently encouraging them in renunciation--just as Srila Prabhupada did with Lalitananda dasi or Allen Ginsberg, the most effective results can be achieved. It is simply a matter of positive rather than negative preaching.

If we do not genuinely care about others we will not be able to preach to them effectively. In general, I advise devotees who are inimical toward gays and lesbians to go preach in other venues. If they do not have the same love, concern and purity that Srila Prabhupada did they will not be effective.

Vaishnava das anudas,

Amara dasa (ASBSP)

If i didnt know the philosophy I would think that Krishna is also homosexual after seeing that galva site.

Hare Krishna!

Dear devotees,

Once of my best devotee friend is gay, and he is a wonderful pujari and one of the best devotees in Iskcon dressing deities. He doesnt have a couple or partner but he is a confessed gay.

He is a wonderful devotee and I know many other wonderful devotees who are gays, and I dont have any problem seeing them in the temple. I am straigh, married and with a son, but we have to be more compassionate and open the Iskcon door to everybody: gays, lesbians, any race, social status.

I dont know who old in age as well his time in Iskcon is Bhakta Corey, but I think that he has to mature a lot, be more compasionate and merciful.

I joined in 1985 and I had seen a lot of good and bad things in Iskcon, and I really take the good things and learn from the bad. He we really want to build and mantain Srila Prabhupada'b4s dream for a house for the whole world, we cant exclude gays, lesbians or any kind of persons, if they follow the rules and regulations they are most welcome, at least for me.

Krishna Kripa Dasa

I think the question is more about gay marriage... no?

Dear Krishna Kripa Prabhu,

Bhakta Corey has not said anythign demeaning about gays or lesbains. He has simply pointed out someo fthe pictures of the Supreme Lord which is used to justify certain things. I agree with you that we should not exclude anyone. We should always encourage people to take up devotional service. Who knows which gutter we came from? But havign siad that we should not condone homosexual activity. We should nto say it is okay! It is not okay! We should encourage those who are in that situation without driving them away or alienating them, but shastras clearly dont give us any scope to justify it. We cannot say things like "it is okay that you are gay" rather we can say "prabhu, please focus on chanting more, we all have anarthas, we have to give up these to effectively progress in spiritual life"

While it is clearly stated that sex without the sole objective of procreation is not bonafide, we should not try to collude and equate homosexual association with heterosexual marriage. Now, please dont call me homophobic. Increasingly I am seeing that one who refuses to condone such activity is branded as homophobic.

Damodar Nityananda Dasa

I think Sitapati Prabhu wrote an excellent article:
http://www.atmayogi.com/node/357

I think it is an issue which is very deep rooted for someone struggling with it. I think tools such as hypnotherapy to get to root causes should be used. Christians have some experience with it and homosexual tendencies are usually traced to problems with the father. But pyscho talk therapy is almost useless in my opinion because you cannot get past the critical filter which relies on the subconscious associations. Hypnosis is a very powerful tool which is still too much of a grey area for devotees because there are not enough devotee hypnotherapists. In my opinion it is difficult to get hypnotherapy done by non-devotees because there is not enough trust.

I put this article in another thread and I think it is relevant:
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=56487

We should welcome any person that wants spiritual life. Specially those discarded by society.

Rules and philosophy applies to anyone and mercy is the only way a fallen person can advance.

Is it not our philosophy, Lord Caitanyas, that the most advanced serve the most fallen?

Maybe we are not even more advanced neither the most fallen, just that maturity is the ingredient lacking in our relations.

We do not go around harassing the meat eaters branding the scriptures as weapons, why should we do it with homos?

and btw, when we you talk about homosexuals are you referring to karmi homosexuals or devotee homosexuals?

Also, some treat homosexuality in the same manner as heterosexuality as if it is just a different color that you like.

Isnt homosexuality something that needs to be stopped like meat eating?

Hare Krsna! Thanks for the link to Sita-pati Prabhus article--I was not aware of it. The article was very well written and thoughtful.

Wishing everyone happiness in Krsna consciousness...

Amara dasa

Dear Amalagaura Prabhu,

Hare Krsna! I wish you would stop posting that weird Christian article! Most of these Christian "miracle" stories about curing homosexuality are either completely fabricated or come from confused bisexuals with mixed attractions for both men and women. Indeed, many of the ex-gay persons end up becoming "Ex-ex-gays," meaning they eventually admit they were unable to change their homosexual orientation.

Below is a more interesting link to BeyondExGay.com, a website dedicated to exposing the Ex-Gay myth. On the webpage you will find links to three excellent testimonies delivered by former Ex-Gay members/founders who now admit that their whole organization and its claim to "cure" homosexuality was a complete sham.

Vaishnava das anudas,

Amara dasa

BeyondExGay.com
http://www.beyondexgay.com/article/apology

>>We do not go around harassing the meat eaters branding the scriptures as weapons, why should we do it with homos?

Ofcourse we should not harasses anyone. We should provide continuous encouragement. But we should nto say that being Homo is alrite. That it is natural.. That it is bonafide. We should be sensitive to their unfortunate situation. But we should not encourage that activity by sanctioning it. I hope the point is clear. Why is the discussion going towards branding, harassesing etc? That kind of attitude is obviously stupid.

>> Srila Prabhupada himself approved of such a transsexual operation in at least one case I know of.

Please provide evidence to the above statement.

Dear VEDA,

Hare Krsna! I certainly accept the multi-lifetime paradigm, just like other devotees. However, I believe that homosexual orientation is a particular birth and body-type, just as being male, female, black, white, etc. is. We are born with a particular body and must deal with it for the duration of our lives. We can control our behavior, of course, but we cannot change the basic constitution of our bodies until death.

In the sense of a next birth we may certainly change our gender according to karma (deeds) and kama (desires), but not otherwise.

Transsexuals, of course, change their bodily sex in a gross fashion. This is interesting, actually, because apparently they find changing their physical sex even easier than changing their gender identity, behavior and orientation. Srila Prabhupada himself approved of such a transsexual operation in at least one case I know of.

Your servant,

Amara dasa

> Isnt homosexuality something that needs to be stopped, like meat-eating?

In spiritual life homosexual behavior certainly needs to be stopped, but we cannot stop people from having homosexual orientation. It is just a fact of nature that some people are born this way, and they have their usefulness and value in society just like all other varieties of people.

Ultimately all material sexuality needs to be stopped. When householders are through having children, their heterosexuality needs to be stopped. In ascetic Vaishnavism, achieving liberation requires the abandonment of all material attachments and desires, the strongest of which is said to be the bond between woman and man. Srila Prabhupadas statement to Syamasundara regarding his homosexual orientation is especially pertinent in this regard ("What is the difference if a person is held in this material world by a gold chain, or by a silver chain...").

-Amara

I think if you take a few steps back and see who has done more to help devotees struggling with their sexual feelings to advance in Krishna consciousness then it will be Amara Prabhu. Whether he is right or wrong maybe decided later. I think because of him and his working at accepting devotees the way they are, more souls will be chanting Hare Krishna. If such devotees went to the temple and heard the ISKCON party line from people who had no idea how to understand them. You can be sure they would not advance as much as when they are getting understanding and comfort. If that is wrong according to the hardliners, well it is in one ear and out the other. The important thing is to help devotees be part of a community of devotees.

If our neighbor in a community of devotees was cooking chicken you can be sure it would not float well. So can or should devotees be comfortable with homosexual neighbors in a devotee community? I think Prabhupada did not want that. But I think if Krishna consciousness expands, souls will take birth in proper bodies for their sexual desires and get the support they need from an early age and we wont have such embarassing problems to deal with.

>>Regarding our website, its purpose is not to promote homosexuality but rather all-inclusiveness. The pictures of Krishna embracing Gopa Kumara, Krishna crossdressing, etc. are all completely transcendental and pure. Looking at them is purifying and helps turn the mind away from mundane lust to pure, spiritual love.

Dear Amara Prabhu, I certainly agree that the pictures of Lord Krishna engaged in His transcendental pastimes are both pure and purifying, and I believe they were placed on the website with best intentions. However when put together with the context of the website, they CAN be highly misleading (and indeed they are, as we can see here from Bhakta Coreys, Sitapati Prabhus and Abhiram Prabhus comments) and create a huge misunderstanding in people unfamiliar with Vaishnava philosophy. And in gay devotees it may reinforce the idea that their homosexual orientation is OK. I also remember myself and my spouse seeing the above-mentioned pictures on the GALVA website a long time ago, unrelatedly to this debate, and the impression we received was that whoever put them there was trying to send a message that its alright to be a homosexual because same mentality is found in spiritual world!! It might be helpful to replace the pictures with more neutral ones, like Krishna playing His flute, or Krishna with the cows etc.

Your servant,

saryu.

> Please provide evidence to the above statement.

Sorry, I thought everyone was familiar with this letter already. Srila Prabhupada wrote this letter to Bhaktin Jennifer Woodward (formerly Bhakta Wayne), after she had already begun transitioning and taking female hormones. She asked permission to take the final step of becoming female through a transsexual operation and Srila Prabhupada didnt seem to mind either way--she could choose either sex as long as she remained steady in that gender. About a year later she had the operation and was initiated, as a female, and named Gopinatha dasi.

Honolulu
10 June, 1975
75-06-10
Jennifer Wayne Woodward
3081 16th St. #201
San Francisco, CA. 94103

My dear Jennifer,

Please accept my greetings. I am in due receipt of your letter dated June 6, 1975 and have noted the contents. First of all, you decide whether you are female or male, then be one or the other. Then, you may enter our temple any time you like. But sometimes man and sometimes woman, that is not proper. Such awkward thing cannot be allowed. It will be disturbing to others. Anyway, continue to chant Hare Krishna as much as possible.

I hope this meets you in good health.

Your ever well-wisher,

A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami
ACBS/ps

The following purport from the Srimad Bhagavatam, Ninth Canto, was written by Srila Prabhupada about a year after this incident:

'93In Bhagavad Gita (2.22) it is said: '91As a person puts on new garments, giving up old ones, the soul accepts new material bodies, giving up the old and useless ones.'92 The body is just like a dress, and here this is proved. Sudyumna and his associates were all male, which means that their souls were covered by male dress, but now they became female, which means that their dress was changed. The soul, however, remains the same. It is said that by modern medical treatment a male can be transformed into a female, and a female into a male. The body, however, has no connection with the soul. The body can be changed, either in this life or the next. Therefore, one who has knowledge of the soul and how the soul transmigrates from one body to another does not pay attention to the body, which is nothing but a covering dress. Panditah sama-darsinah ['91The humble sage, by virtue of true knowledge, sees with equal vision a learned and gentle brahmana, a cow, an elephant, a dog and a dog-eater (outcaste).'92 (Bhagavad-Gita As It Is 5.18)]. Such a person sees the soul, which is part and parcel of the Supreme Lord. Therefore he is a sama-darsi, a learned person.'94

(Srimad Bhagavatam 9.1.33, purport)

Now, who can be more merciful than Srila Prabhupada and at the same time so strict?

We often choose to focus on being a thunderbolt "pure devotee like" in the name of the philosophy, but do we have the supreme merciful attitude?

If the answer is no, better to remain humble and sympathetic to our fellow devotees, be them hetero, homo or whatever flavour exists.

Amalagaura said:

"If our neighbor in a community of devotees was cooking chicken you can be sure it would not float well. So can or should devotees be comfortable with homosexual neighbors in a devotee community? I think Prabhupada did not want that."

Prabhu, I think you have this wrong. The question should be: "Should devotees be comfortable with neighbours who are having illicit sex in a devotee community."

"No Illicit Sex" is the regulative principle, not: "Be Heterosexual".

My thing with the galva website pictures is this:

To me the pictures on the galva website give the impression that some type of material sexual behaviour or orientation is justified by the activities of Radha and Krishna. I think that this is a potentially dangerous use. I have nothing against homosexuals or homosexuality. I would be equally concerned about their association with heterosexuality. Radha and Krishnas pastimes do not validate any form of material sexual orientation or behaviour. I think that we can explain and understand human sexuality without needing to bring this higher reality into the picture, and we should be careful not to bring it in when we are discussing conditioned material nature. It is of a different order.

My personal feeling.

Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura:

"No one should think, as do the prakrta-sahajiyas, that an ordinary living entity will overcome lust by hearing and chanting these pastimes if he is filled with contaminations like lust and greed, if he avoids accumulating the appropriate knowledge of the relationships between matter, the individual soul and the Supreme Lord, if he remains fixed in a subjective world centered on his own sensual pleasures, if his intelligence continues to be permeated with material conceptions, if he neglects all the purifying activities of devotional service in practice, and especially if he takes the spiritual love affairs of the Supreme Lord to have the same kinds of sensual motivations that he himself experiences. For this reason, Mahaprabhu emphasized the word faith (visvasa) in order to forestall such sahajiya arguments." (Anubhasya, Cc. Antya 3.45).

Srila B.R. Sridhar Maharaja:

"Our Guru Maharaja, Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Goswami Prabhupada, asked that we keep Radharani in great reverence, On your head, over your head'97dont be bold enough to approach directly: Pujala raga-patha gaurava bhange. Try to keep Her and Her group at a respectful distance, above your head. Dont rush towards that position. It is not that cheap."

The whole tenor of Guru Maharajas life was such: That is high, very high, and from below we are to honor that. We must establish this conception, the proper regard for that higher lila, throughout the entire world: That is too high."

Source: http://www.gosai.com/chaitanya/saranagati/html/vishnu_mjs/standard-higher-lila/higher-lila-2.html

I do consider myself tolerant person, but in regards of choice of pictures on galva108 site - I do think that they are being used in a misleading way. Example of heretosexuals viewing or posting pictures of Radha and Krishna doesnt justify it.

There are references in scriptures about Krishna having erotic pastimes with Radha and other gopies. Of course these pastimes have nothing to do with material eroticism, therefore it would be highly inappropriate to post picture of Radha and Krishna on erotic or pornographic site. That is obvious, but I dont think it would be appropriate to also post it on the site which focuses and discusses aspect of heterosexuality even if it is in a context of spiritual life. I am not familiar with the content of galva108 website, but I assume that main focus and uniting factor is homosexuality even if it is in the light of spirituality. The title itself states "The Gay and Lesbian Vaishava Association". Therefore I would dare to think that using this picture (Krishna embracing another boy) as the first and the main picture on this type of website implies that Krishna also had a homosexual attraction. Now, is that true in any way? Are there any references in the scripture that Krishna had erotic atraction to cowherd boys as he had to female gopies. Of course, I agree that His pastimes with Radha or other gopies have nothing to do with material eroticism, therefore, as I said, I would also object to using picture of Radha Krishna as a logo on "The Heterosexual Vaishnava Association" website if there was one.

Now another side of the problem. Can you imagine male and female brahmacaris and brahmacarinis sleeping in the same room using the same restroom, taking shower together etc.? What about brahmacaris and brahmacarinis dancing together during kirtan, embracing each other etc? That doesnt sound right is it. Now what about homosexuals living in monastery? I am totally unaware of how brain or psyche of homosexual person works, but being a male heterosexual I would be totally overwhelmed with sexual desires if I would get a chance to associate with female devotees in such an intimate setting. I do agree that I have serious problems with lusty desires, so maybe that is only my problem, or maybe this only applies to heterosexuals?

Of course this problem goes beyond vaishnava community, but I would be interested to hear honest perspective of a homosexual person on this issue.

ganga d.

question: would we react the same if a marriage site puts a radha krishna picture on it? just curious.

http://grihasta.com/index.php appear some pics of radha krishna in the swing, etc
http://www.iskcon.net/nz-namahatta/jtcd/3-synastry.html same

and may be more..

Acknowledging that something exists and then looking for a way to practically deal with it is different from condoning something.

Homosexual people exist. They are also jivas with the dormant capacity for love of God. They are also in the human form of life so the recommended process is chanting the Holy Names.

If we call ourselves preachers then we need to encourage all human beings to chant the Holy Names and support them in this endeavor.

I dont think its possible to reach a consensus on how we should support homosexuals in this though. Some folks think that gay marriage is a solution. Some think that shunning them until they change their conditioned nature (?) is the best help.

In any case, we should try to respect every living entity even if that means from a distance. Personally, hanging out with gay men is not my thing. But we can still meet at the temple and hear and chant - these are transcendental activities. At least I can show them that much love and respect.

Along with love and respect comes honesty though. I dont think this "Im OK - youre OK" saccharine "positivity" is any real way to show love and respect. Philosophically we should all be clear about things.

Some devotees seem to love delving into the intricacies of these issues with but a faint nod (if any) towards Srila Prabhupadas words. Its pretty clear that Srila Prabhupada didnt forbid those with homosexual orientation to take up the purificatory process of hearing and chanting. It is also clear that he did forbid ecclesiastical sanction in such a way that this behavior is condoned or given approval by religious authorities. (notice the distinction between behavior and orientation)

... so .... without further ado ....

... once again ... my perennial contribution to the gay debate ..... see file attached

Srila Prabhupadas statements certainly have to be seen in context. When he criticized those groups, it mostly referred to a general Western population, i.e. degraded from the dharmic point of view.
Otoh, his loving dealings with disciples were on the spiritual level.
One just has to discriminate (viveka).

By Govinda dasi ACBSP:

'93Srila Prabhupada, in this country there are some women who are attracted to other women sexually, not to men. So she is having this problem living with the other girls and doesn'92t know what to do about it'94.

Srila Prabhupada'92s eyes grew large and round and he said: '93Oh'94. He saw the whole thing immediately.

Then he said in a very surprised tone: '93In India there are some such low-class men but not women, never women'94. His face was full of surprise. I said: '93Yes, Srila Prabhupada, in the West there are such women also'94.

Then he leaned back and wagged his head side-to-side, Indian fashion in a very amused and almost amazed look. '93Just see, this sex life. Men to men, women to women. Men to women. Sex life is the bondage. It is all bondage. But, he opened his eyes wide: the sex life between man and woman can be sanctified by marriage. That is the difference. Krsna says in the Gita that I am the sex life within marriage. So within marriage it can be used for having nice Krsna conscious children but not like this. This is very low class'94.

oh and Amara Prabhu, please change those pics on the GALVA site. Its tough to look at that juxtaposition.

admin here:
ekendra Prabhu, I have put your quotations and large texts as attachment gayquotes.txt, so that we save on scrolling. Haribol!

> question: would we react the same if a marriage site puts a radha krishna picture on it? just curious.

> http://grihasta.com/index.php appear some pics of radha krishna in the swing, etc
> http://www.iskcon.net/nz-namahatta/jtcd/3-synastry.html same

> and may be more..

Thanks, Misra! These are good examples and I doubt if anyone ever had second thoughts about using pictures of Radha and Krsna on these marriage websites. Its only when GLBTI issues come into play that devotees seem go up in arms. ("It is quite amazing how most of us can be so prejudiced about so many things and not even know it..." - H.H. Bhakti Tirtha Swami).

Look, if I were to set up a site about cow protection, I would use a picture of Krsna embracing a cow. For a marriage website, I see nothing wrong in using a picture of Radha-Krsna. GLBTI people are naturally attracted toward Krsnas crossdressing pastimes as well as His examples of pure, loving friendships, so that is why I use them.

On the top of our website there is also a picture of Lord Caitanya dancing, and Ive even had devotees complain about that: "Oh, you are using a picture of Lord Caitanya and insinuating that He is gay!" This is all nonsense to me. According to some devotees, I shouldnt use any pictures of Krsna at all at GALVA!

I think devotees need to lighten up a little. My target audience for the GALVA website is not conservative, heterosexual ISKCON devotees. It is GLBTI Vaishnavas, Hindus and GLBTI non-devotees who are coming to Krishna consciousness for the first time. The website itself clearly explains our position on renunciation and illicit sex:

"GALVAs Position On Illicit Sex and Renunciation"
http://www.galva108.org/galvaposition.html

As well as the transcendental nature of Krsna and His pastimes:

"Same-Sex Love and Affection in the Spiritual World"
http://www.galva108.org/loveaffection.html

The vast majority of feedback Ive had on the pictures has been very favorable, especially from our target audience, so we may have to "agree to disagree" in this regard. In the future I may set up an additional website, without any pictures of Krsna, that would appeal more to conservative, heterosexual devotees approaching this topic.

-Amara

Hare Krsna!

Regarding Ekendra Prabhus lengthy posting of every negative comment Srila Prabhupada ever made about homosexual behavior, this is something I have to deal with all the time. To me, it is simply an example of bad preaching. If someone asked us what Srila Prabhupada thought about Blacks, for instance, would you then go ahead and post every negative comment Srila Prabhupada ever made about them:

'93It may be concluded that white or a golden hue is the color of the higher caste, and black is the complexion of the sudras [lower class].

(Srimad Bhagavatam 4.14.45, purport)


'93[The dark-skinned races] are not allowed to live in cities and towns because they are sinful by nature. As such, their bodies are very ugly, and their occupations are also sinful.'94

'93They are always engaged in sinful activities like stealing'85'94

(Srimad Bhagavatam 4.14.46, purport)


'93Sudra is to be controlled only. They are never to be given freedom. Just like in America. The Blacks were slaves. They were under control. And since you have given them equal rights they are disturbing, most disturbing, always creating a fearful situation, uncultured and drunkards. What training they have got? They have got equal right? That is best, to keep them under control as slaves but give them sufficient food, sufficient cloth, not more than that. Then they will be satisfied.'94

(Room Conversation, Varnasrama System Must Be Introduced, Mayapura, February 14, 1977)


'93'85the higher classes of men are white (sukla), and the lower classes of men are black. This division of white and black is in terms of one'92s white and black duties of life. Pious acts lead one to'85 acquire beautiful features. Impious acts lead one to'85 acquire ugly bodily features.'94

(Srimad Bhagavatam 3.5.9, purport)


'93Yes. We hate to mix with you. No gentleman tries to mix with loafers. Even in America, they don'92t like to live with the Blacks. Crows will not like to live with the ducks and white swans. And white swans will not like to live with the crows. That is natural division. '91Birds of the same feather flock together.'92'94

(Allahabad, January 11, 1977)

Of course not! This is bad preaching and in my opinion would not be pleasing to Srila Prabhupada. Rather, a good preacher would explain how Srila Prabhupada viewed everyone equally as spirit soul, including Blacks, and engaged them in Krsnas service like anyone else. It would also be helpful to cite positive examples, such as Bhakti Tirtha Maharaja and others.

No one doubts that Srila Prabhupada was against homosexual behavior, but this can be expressed in one simple statement while otherwise stressing our higher teachings of all-inclusiveness and "sama-darsi"--emphasizing Srila Prabhupadas friendly dealings with openly gay personalities such as Allen Ginsberg.

-Amara

I think you should use real pictures of homosexual vaishnavas on the site instead of Radha and Krishna.

>>No one doubts that Srila Prabhupada was against homosexual behavior, but this can be expressed in one simple >>statement while otherwise stressing our higher teachings of all-inclusiveness and "sama-darsi"--emphasizing Srila >>Prabhupadas friendly dealings with openly gay personalities such as Allen Ginsberg.

We can state in one simple statement, but many people (including here for example) are not ready to condone homosexual indulgence. Infact, you are encouraging such activity but defenind such acts in all forums and all ways you can. You have taken it up as your goal of life. This is to be perfectly honest is abominable.

We have repeatedly said that homosexuals need to be given encouragement to progress in devotioinal life and there should not be any kind of phobia, violence or bandishing them from temples etc. However, on the strength of shastras and SPs words we MUST strongly preach that one who indulges in homosexual activity CANNOT make spiritual advancement. They HAVE TO GIVE IT UP. If they are struggling to do so, a good preacher must be considerate and encoruaging but should nto JUSTIFY OR SANCTION SUCH ACT AS OKAY.

I hope to see you next post accepting this position. Otherwise you should justify our stand on the strength of shastras.

Dear Ganga dasi,

Please accept my humble obeisances. All glories to Srila Prabhupada.

Regarding the issue of gays living in the ashrama, there are many wonderful examples of celibate gays, both men and women, that live and serve in our temples. Srila Prabhupada never forbade this, and neither do any ISKCON temples today (with the one exception of Danavir Swami, which I personally think is bogus).

I lived in the temple myself as an openly gay yet strictly celibate brahmacari for twenty-three years, from 1974 to 1997 and never experienced any significant difficulties. Sure, a few devotees were unfriendly toward me just because I was homosexual, but the vast majority were quite accepting and caring. Living in the ashrama with other men was not particularly agitating for me and I dont believe it can be compared to men and women living together. In most instances, the other men are heterosexual and not mutually attracted. In cases where another man was gay, I always developed very brotherly and strictly platonic relationships with them.

I do know of a few cases in which gay devotees became too agitated by living in the ashrama. If any devotee is too agitated, whether gay or straight, he or she can easily move outside the temple or practical arrangements can be made such as having ones own room, sharing a room with an elderly person, etc. As long as there is no difficulty in following celibate vows, there should be no reason to deny gays the advantages of ashrama living, even if it is just for a few weeks, months or years.

Vaishnava das anudas,

Amara dasa

>>question: would we react the same if a marriage site puts a radha krishna picture on it? just curious.
>>http://grihasta.com/index.php appear some pics of radha krishna in the swing, etc
>>http://www.iskcon.net/nz-namahatta/jtcd/3-synastry.html same

You got me on this one, Mishra Prabhu. I take back my critical comment about picture on galva108 site. I did mention that in my understanding Radha Krishna picture would not be appropriate on the site promoting heterosexual relationship, or that there is a difference between Krishnas friendly embrace with his male friends and His pastimes with gopies. So I guess I wasnt completely unfair or contradicting myself. But to be totally honest, I dont think I would have objected the same way to the picture of Radha and Krishna on grihasta.com as I did when I saw Krishnas picture on galva108 site. And that is not completely fair on my part, therefore Id rather take my words back and leave those pictures alone.

>>In most instances, the other men are heterosexual and not mutually attracted.

That does make sense and gives me better understanding. Thank you for your answer Amara Prabhu.

I do have problems with Srila Prabhupadas heavily critical statements about homosexuals, blacks or women. I dont belong to either one of those categories (Im heterosexual white male) , so it does not affect me personally. Maybe that is why I just hide my head in the sand and ignore when I hear those statements, but sometimes I feel like reacting what could be considered very offensive towards Srila Prabhupada. Maybe someone can offer some explanation or answer which could help me justify this apparent shortsightedness on part of our acarya.

Ganga dasa

Hare Krsna, Ganga Prabhu!

Thanks for your honest and thoughtful comments. I know many devotees who feel hurt and discouraged by some of Srila Prabhupadas harsher statements against women and minorities. It feels even worse when fellow devotees--Godbrothers who are supposed to be giving us love and support--use these quotes out of context in a thoughtless and mean-spirited fashion.

One advice I can mention that helps me a lot is to always remember and read the pastimes of Srila Prabhupadas loving dealings with his female, gay and black disciples. Action and example is indeed more important than words, and Prabhupadas examples in this regard are truly exemplary and inspiring.

Your servant,

Amara dasa

is safer to err in the side of mercy than in the side of implacable justice almost every time.

Hare Krsna.

I am fully in favour of supporting all kinds of people in their attempts to take up sAdhana according to their guNa and karma. The health of our own sAdhana depends on fostering this kind of attitude towards all living entities.

I agree with Sitapati prabhus comments on distinguishing between guNa and karma in the case of homosexuality also. Speaking of those individuals for whom homosexual tendencies are a result of inborn guNa, philosophically, wouldnt they form a separate class? In which case, there ought to be "segregation" from the general body of other male (or female) devotees, in the sense that their interactions within the body politic are regulated according to that guNas relationship with other guNas.

Cohabitation within brahmacAri ashramas is one example. I also have several very close female friends whom I treat like mothers or sisters, but that doesnt mean I can accept the proposal of cohabitation or indiscriminate mixing of unmarried sAdhakas of opposite sex(uality).

Marriage is another case for consideration. As per philosophically derived conventions and regulations within VaiSNava society, can gay marriage be solemnized within a Vedic temple? I dont know, but I lean towards a "no". This is only because there is some evidence that not all homosexual behaviour is based only on material "guNa", and that socialization and psychological factors do play a role. Institutionalizing homosexual marriage in the Vedic context even though it is "the undesirable option" in some cases is untenable.

For those brethren who are really homosexual by guNa, and who need to have a supporting relationship with a fellow homosexual, they may do so with the moral support of devotees, but without demanding that it be publicly sanctified, for the sake of the general Society and the sanity of its ideals. Just like heterosexuals should not demand that sexual gratification within marriage, although it happens, can be sanctified by the sAtvata VaiSNava standard in any way (such as in the name of "tantra", marital "intimacy", and the like).

To summarize my point -- I think a lot of this discussion about "acceptability", "rights" and "individual reality" should devolve on the philosophy of the separation between "public" and "private" in VaiSNava Society. Ive heard an aphorism that, speaking in terms of the different guNa-s of religion itself, a Vedic man "is VaiSNava in public, Shaiva in the home, and a ShAkta in private." Whatever that means, I guess the point is that the individuals sAdhana is to aspire for the VaiSNava standard in this birth or the next, and since we have a viewpoint of a continuous sAdhana over many lifetimes, discussing the distinction between public convention and private life is not inappropriate, assuming that it is all held together by the collective sincerity of Society members, rather than individual or collective hypocrisy.

pranams to all the devotees here. (gay or otherwise)

lets clear some things up.

Amara Prabhu wrote:

"It feels even worse when fellow devotees--Godbrothers who are supposed to be giving us love and support--use these quotes out of context in a thoughtless and mean-spirited fashion."

Thats sad to read. You see, I listed the quotes above after Id written what Id consider a loving and supportive introduction. Fact is - regardless of how we spin words around in this forum - I love and support you Amara Prabhu and any other devotees whether they are black, gay, women, human or otherwise. So please forgive any perceived mean-spiritedness as this was not my intention.

How does understanding Srila Prabhupadas teachings on these subjects automatically mean we have to develop some sort of hateful mentality towards a group of people? Srila Prabhupada didnt set this example and I really dont like being perceived that way - especially since its just not true. There are a number of devotees in my immediate community and nearby temples who are homosexual. I have heartfelt appreciation for them as people and reverence for the sacrifices they often make to help others.

There is no question of a condescending attitude towards them - in fact, quite the opposite. I listen to their classes and serve them prasadam and accept their association as Vaisnavas - simply because they are Vaisnavas. Outside of temple activities I dont generally hang with them. This is not an insult but just a natural social inclination. We are just different types of people and Im sure they feel the same. Sometimes good fences make good neighbors and this same concept holds true for how I deal with single women, brahmacaris and people in various social stages of life. I tend to associate and make intimate friendships with people in a similar situation in life (married with children).

So hopefully that is clear. I respect you Amara Prabhu. I also love you. For real. Lets not read things into this that arent here.

Next topic....

"It feels even worse when fellow devotees--Godbrothers who are supposed to be giving us love and support--use these quotes out of context in a thoughtless and mean-spirited fashion."

.... focus here being on out of context ....

Granted, to hurl one of these quotations at someone with intent to discourage or insult them is not Vaisnava-like. In most cases its hypocritical as there are certainly a number of quotations that can be hurled back - unless the person is one of the rare souls whove descend into the material world just to save others. For the rest of us though - we should be embarrassed to do such a thing being constantly aware of our own shortcomings.

Personally I get really uncomfortable being up on a high horse but this doesnt mean I cant learn how to discriminate properly and accept Srila Prabhupadas teachings about homosexuality at face value.

Lets get this straight. I know there are classier ways to make these points but since I want to be as clear as possible Ill have to use myself as an example.

My diksa guru is in a black American body. Two of my siska gurus are admittedly of homosexual orientation.

Reading these quotes from Srila Prabhupada about homosexuals and blacks doesnt injure the relationships I have with them because our association is based on something far more substantial than bodily designation. They inspire and educate me in my Krishna consciousness and Im grateful for that.

I dont have to dumb down my understanding of what Srila Prabhupada taught about blacks or gays either. Rather it inspires me that those with what we could materially perceive as handicaps have achieved the mercy of Krishna and Guru.

Comparativley, Haridas Thakur prayed for a birth in a disadvantaged situation so that he could chant without the bother of social prestige. Sanatana and Rupa Goswamis were both considered social outcasts from Hindu society yet these individuals were eternal associates of the Lord.

The point here is that I dont feel that accepting the truth about something or someone means we have to hate. I think this is most likely based on fear more than anything else.

Heres a hypothetical outlook we can put into the spotlight:

"Im debauched and degraded more than anyone else. Therefore I can say with confidence that by the inconceivable and undeserved mercy of Guru and Krishna Ive been spared the torment of my previous sinful activities. Instead Ive been given this wonderful opportunity to chant and dance in the association of the Vaisnavas. Jaya Sacinandana!"

I feel that this is an attitude that would evoke deep affection and reverence from any serious devotee. It transcends social designations and at the same time doesnt deny them.

(off topic :-) )

Haribol Ekendraji!

Im in Atlanta, with Jagannatha around my neck. Apparently he arrived a week ago or so. I asked Param Satya just before I left if anything had come, and she produced the envelope. Thank you so very much.

your servant,
Sita-pati das

Jaya Jagannatha!!!

Dear Ekendra Prabhu,

Please accept my humble obeisances. All glories to Srila Prabhupada.

I appreciate your honest sentiments and believe you may actually mean no harm in quoting the long list of Srila Prabhupadas negative statements against homosexual behavior. Nevertheless, this still isnt a good way to preach and I dont see devotees constantly posting negative statements against Blacks--only toward gay people.

These statements dont insult me personally but I am very concerned about their usage in terms of new people and younger gay devotees. The negativity simply drives people away from Krsna. It is not your duty to humiliate others or to make them feel "less," even if such an attitude is advantageous in spiritual life. Furthermore, some of the statements are literally not true, such as the idea that homosexuality in men is caused by overindulgence with women, or that there is no homosexuality in the animal kingdom. These were common notions during the early-twentieth century but have long since been disproven, so why continue to quote them? Any educated person hearing such quotes will simply role back their eyes and walk away from the devotees.

Gay people have been bashed over the head again and again with these quotes and it gets very tiring. Dont you think we know what the four principles are by now? Do you assume we are not following them and need to be reminded about them by you? These quotes discourage not only gay people, but also their friends, family members, loved ones, co-workers, peers and open-minded people in general. At the very least, I would expect you or any other sincere devotee to minimize the amount of negative quotes and concentrate more on Srila Prabhupadas positive statements ("What is the difference if a person is held in this material world by a gold chain, or by a silver chain?"), his favorable comments about the homosexual and transgender "eunuch" class of India (the third sex), or his friendly dealings with openly homosexual people like Allen Ginsberg. That would be much more effective in attracting souls to Krsna consciousness and portray a more positive image of His Divine Grace.

If we quote only Srila Prabhupadas harsh and negative comments people will think he was some nasty tyrant who hated gay people! Is that really the image you want to portray? Id be much more careful about that if I were you. I do not mean any offense but am simply trying to help you improve your preaching style.

Yours in the service of Srila Prabhupada,

Amara dasa

Haribol Amara Prabhu.

Thanks for helping me to improve my preaching style.

Respectfully, Im just wondering why youre under the assumption that I dont have the discrimination whether or not to present these quotes to new or beginning gay devotees? Here we are discussing philosophy and application of philosophy amongst ourselves. Thats a tough thing for me to do without reference to Srila Prabhupada.

you wrote: "That would be much more effective in attracting souls to Krsna consciousness and portray a more positive image of His Divine Grace."

Personally Im satisfied to let His Divine Grace speak for himself. Its not my function to portray him the way I want to based on my perception of what people are attracted to. He is who he is. Isnt that wonderful though? Or is Srila Prabhupada subtly being accused here of "bad preaching"? I hope not. :S

you wrote: "These statements dont insult me personally but I am very concerned about their usage in terms of new people and younger gay devotees. The negativity simply drives people away from Krsna. It is not your duty to humiliate others or to make them feel "less," even if such an attitude is advantageous in spiritual life."

I never meant to insult anyone by quoting Srila Prabhupada. I dont think he was insulting anyone in particular either. He was just teaching us. Im happy to listen to him and learn.

I never assumed that it was my "duty to humiliate others or make them feel less". Why am I being reprimanded for it? I dont think that such an attitude is advantageous for spiritual life either. rather ... trnad api sunicena

you wrote: "Dont you think we know what the four principles are by now? Do you assume we are not following them and need to be reminded about them by you?"

no. i think Ive made my position clear in previous posts. When we delve into these sort of discussions of course we should do it with unbiased reference to guru, sadhu and sastras. This is an educational initiative so we need to look at all the facts and not just pick the ones that prop up our agendas. (by the way - i appreciate that you shared the story with Shyamasundara Prabhu - "gold chains or silver chains" - Id not heard that before)

Quoting a bunch of negative affirmations by Srila Prabhupada in a given context can have bad consequences in the preaching.

It is not that because "Srila Prabhupada said" you can quote any time, to any person, specially not in "bulk" mode.

Part of Srila Prabhupada greatness is time and circumstance preaching, that is why he attracted and continues to attract people from all walks of life.

If a person feels offended it is our fault, 95 % of times.

We should not ruin his words (and his movement) by its indiscriminate use

"Quoting a bunch of negative affirmations by Srila Prabhupada" ....

whether or not those statements are negative is a subjective call. I dont consider anything spoken by His Divine Grace to be negative.

and yes. please get off my case. i do have enough sense not to blast guests and newcomers with these quotes (or quotes on blacks or women or four-headed Brahmas) simply because they arent conditioned to accept them. i will bring them up in a discussion amongst devotees who are trying to learn something about the topic though. Isnt that what we are doing here? If not, then please pardon me as I leave the discussion.

Sorry if anyone got offended.

"Negative affirmations" = oxymoron.

I think the thing here is context. Any kind of quote removes the quoted material from its context. For example, from a Prabhupada letter from today in history: "Make it a first-class temple, there will be no lack of visitors, you will never even have to leave that place for preaching."

Is this an argument for focusing on the temple and not going out?

The next line gives us some more idea of context, who Srila Prabhupada was speaking to in this case, and their circumstances: "And if you serve nice prasadam, the whole of India will come."

So this was sent to someone in India.

So every quote removes context. Putting a bunch of different quotes together creates a new context. So we have to be careful about context. Comments and commentary that Srila Prabhupada made were made in different contexts - to different people, in different settings, and for different specific circumstances and purposes. We need to be careful about reproducing them.

A common propaganda technique is to cut and paste comments by someone to create a new context. It is often done in videos to parody someone. For example, we might make a video of repeated pauses and "umms" and "ahs" by a politician to make them seem indecisive and unintelligent.

Aggregating Srila Prabhupadas comments like this removes them from their surrounding context, and creates another context. With such a hot-button issue as homosexuality, where people are already facing discrimination and condemnation, it might not be such a good idea.

Amara das parallel with black people is perhaps a good one. Is it a good idea to make a big cut and paste quote-fest of "Srila Prabhupada on Womens Intelligence", or "Srila Prabhupada on Black People"? Maybe for ones own personal consumption, but probably not for an audience without intimate knowledge of the wider context that these quotes were taken from. It removes a lot of context, creates a new context that Srila Prabhupada did not speak in, and does not take into account the context that the audience exists in, which will affect how something like this is perceived.

After reading your sensible reply (that didnt accuse me of harboring a prejudicial or mean-spirited attitude) I have to basically agree with you. Stringing together a list of quotes from Srila Prabhupada on an issue can certainly give people the wrong impression.

I just dont like it when people get into mapping out ISKCONs social trajectory with sparse reference or acknowledgment of Srila Prabhupadas views. I joined ISKCON because I wanted to take shelter of his teachings - I stay in ISKCON because I think its the place Im most likely to have the association of devotees who feel the same.

Heres a doubt that comes to my mind though: a thorough list of "Srila Prabhupada on Womens Intelligence", or "Srila Prabhupada on Black People" quotations would also include the many encouraging statements he made in reference to them. If anyone were to read through all of the statements theyd certainly get the idea that Srila Prabhupada wasnt prejudiced against anyone - at the same time he spoke plainly.

Certainly he wanted everyone to engage wholeheartedly in Krishna Consciousness including the homosexually inclined. Even the most directly disapproving quotation (the 1975 letter to Lilananda Prabhu quoted towards the beginning of this thread) was encouraging in the sense that Srila Prabhupada didnt reject him outright for being a homosexual. Rather, he strongly and compassionately encouraged him to give up the degrading homosexual activity.

Regarding "context": I think this whole discussion started off in a hot way by the underdeveloped fervor of a young devotee. Why I initially chose to lean in on this particular discussion here escapes me at the moment. Id much prefer a mature and appreciative dialogue with devotees like Amara Prabhu and yourself where mutual respect and Vaisnava affection were more apparent to me. Im trying to make this apparent in my posts but since Im not such a good writer sometimes it must sound like Im angry or condemning. Im just taking an analytical approach here and Im also trying to thoughtfully listen to everyones input.

Hare Krsna!

I must say Ive also really appreciated the civil dialog by everyone on this group.

> [Sitapati:] Is it a good idea to make a big cut and paste quote-fest of "Srila Prabhupada on Womens Intelligence", or "Srila Prabhupada on Black People"? Maybe for ones own personal consumption, but probably not for an audience without intimate knowledge of the wider context that these quotes were taken from.

Thanks for saying this. To me, these types of postings come off as a type of attack, even if they are preceded by kind words. If the subjects of these lists feel offended, and if it only serves to turn them away, then what is the point of utilizing such an overwhelming method in the first place? It would be better to make the point using a single, representative quote mixed in with the kind statements--bitter medicine served in a sweet syrup, so to speak. Typically, when I come across a barrage of these quotes on the Internet it is from someone who is very anti-gay. In this regard, I am sorry if I misjudged Ekendra Prabhu.

We may have to "agree to disagree" on this one. In general, though, I believe very strongly in positive preaching. When new people ask me about Hare Krishna and women, for instance, I always quote BG 10:34 first of all ["Among women I am fame, fortune, fine speech, memory, intelligence, steadfastness and patience."] I also describe Srila Prabhupadas encouragement of women to serve equally as priests and give lectures. I never tell them Srila Prabhupadas negative statements against women initially. That can be done at a later time, very carefully, and in the correct context.

I guess everyone has their own particular preaching style, though, and Ive also seen many really bad examples in my day! In some cases, the "preacher" wasnt even aware that he had just successfully terminated the new persons budding interest in Krsna. That is very sad to me!

Jaya prabhus!

Amara dasa

Amara Prabhu,

Pranams. The morning program was great today. I kept thinking of this discussion and what it must be like to be attacked all of the time just for having the self-honesty to not conceal who you are. It would certainly develop in me a hardened and defensive outer-shell.

I certainly agree that our philosophy DOES address the issue of homosexual orientation in a sensible way. Sadly, there is a lack of even basic education in our movement at present so a list of quotes without the supporting context may just serve to enhance ignorance and fear. Perhaps I assume too much of an audience and expect everyone to be able to contextualize these quotes in a compassionate Vaisnava way.

I also agree that its ridiculous to whack unsuspecting folks over the head with stuff thats far beyond their comprehension and conditioning. This sort of smug blatancy is pretty impersonal and I try to avoid it myself. Id never use these quotations for public preaching although I guess anyone could read this forum. In posting the list of quotations I was trying, albeit in a weighty manner, to open up a discussion amongst established devotees (my assumption) where all points are considered from gurus, sadhus and sastras.

Perhaps this conversation deserves a new thread? Id prefer that.

Ill call the new thread "Understanding Naimittika and Nitya Dharmas in the 21st Century" inspired by Sita-pati Prabhus recently expressed appreciation for Jaiva Dharma. (This book is a powerful reference for getting things sorted! Srila Bhaktivinode Thakura is often credited for being able to deliver the entire world himself. After reading this book its easier to see why.)

ekendra Prabhu,
you are welcome to open any number of new threads, actually we love that :)
just that we call the thread "question" for the sake of desired functionality and purpose.
thank you all for being so nice, knowledgeable and accommodating vaishnavas.

Understood, Admin Prabhu.

We will explore the "question" of how to live in the world but not be of the world.

does that sound alright?

ys-

to Bhakta Corey, Amara Prabhu, Ekendra maharaj et all, how about closing this question, are you satisfied?

Sure, close the thread if you like. Thanks for allowing the topic to be discussed in the first place! I would like to add this final quote from Srila Prabhupada, which in my opinion nicely sums up the ultimate conclusion on all of these controversial social issues:

"The humble sage, by virtue of true knowledge, sees with equal vision a learned and gentle brahmana, a cow, an elephant, a dog and a dog-eater [outcaste]."
("Bhagavad-gita As It Is, 5.18)

-Amara