Pariprashnena — Q&A Archive

My understanding is that even a person who is under the modes of nature can perform devotional service that is not under modes of nature.

That is given as an example in Puranas of a bird who died while performing pradaksina of Visnu mandir was delivered even it was under the modes of nature.

Devotional service is not at any time dependent of the modes of nature and is always transcendental even if performed without any knowledge or purification. Puranas are full of examples of that. If you look at Bhag 1.2.24 you will see that there is a requirement for realization-brahmadarsana, but there is no requirement for the activity [SB 2.3.10].

What you can not get until transcendental level is actual experience in the service, such as darsana or lila interaction. Thus we are very critical of pretenders who claim to be on the advanced level of svarupasiddhi realisation, but being only interested in thier boyfriends. That is why Srila Siddhanta sarasvati said:

The Gaudiya (13.14, Nov. 10, 1934).

All these days we have spoken about lila. Why? Because this is our most confidential asset. This is our only sadhya. But one should not make the mistake of thinking that anartha-nivrtti is the prayojana. One thinking like this will never enter into artha-pravrtti. For this reason, I will begin speaking about asta-kaliya-lila.

I know that you are not ready to hear it. But we should know such a transcendental idea exists within the realm of devotion. This is why anartha-nivrtti is essential. After the realm of anartha-nivrtti is artha-pravrtti, pure conjugal service to R'e4dh'e4 and Krsna. This is transcendental reality. If we do not know of this transcendental realm, then all of our efforts may end in nirvisesa-vada. Do not let your days pass in trying for anartha-nivrtti. Artha-pravrtti is also necessary. Anartha-nivrtti is necessary until artha-pravrtti has started. When artha-pravrtti is present, then anartha-nivrtti becomes unimportant - artha-pravrtti becomes prominent.

Those who have chanted hari nama for fifteen or twenty years should know such things. The beginners need not hear these topics or they will misunderstand. These topics are for certain audiences, not for all. Also it is said, apana bhajana-katha na kahibe jathatatha, "One should not reveal ones bhajana to others." If we disregard this instruction of our previous acaryas, then there may be a permanent fall from the realm of devotional service.

ok next question then is... how do we know in which particular mode we are doing devotional service so we can reach the pure stage. I mean probably you have to identify your stage to advance further...

In the Srimad Bhagavatam 3.29.7-12, Lord Kapila advises that there are diverse paths of devotional service depending on the performer. Sri Krishna reinforces the same point to Uddhava in Srimad Bhagavatam 11.25.10-11.

From Prabhupadas purport to 3.29. 10: "Devotional service in the modes of ignorance, passion and goodness can be divided into eighty-one categories. There are different devotional activities, such as hearing, chanting, remembering, worshiping, offering prayer, rendering service and surrendering everything, and each of them can be divided into three qualitative categories. There is hearing in the mode of passion, in the mode of ignorance and in the mode of goodness. Similarly, there is chanting in the mode of ignorance, passion and goodness, etc. Three multiplied by nine equals twenty-seven, and when again multiplied by three it becomes eighty-one. One has to transcend all such mixed materialistic devotional service in order to reach the standard of pure devotional service, as explained in the next verses."

Thank you! I found the exact quotes here:

mode of ignorance:
http://vedabase.net/sb/3/29/8/en

mode of passion:
http://vedabase.net/sb/3/29/9/en

mode of goodness:
http://vedabase.net/sb/3/29/10/en

pure devotional service:
http://vedabase.net/sb/3/29/11-12/en

...and purports

related
http://www.pariprashnena.com/discussion/407/avoiding-the-association-of-some-devotees/#Item_1

[quote][cite] mishra:[/cite]ok next question then is... how do we know in which particular mode we are doing devotional service so we can reach the pure stage. I mean probably you have to identify your stage to advance further...[/quote]
I always thought that this was the role of a spiritual master to do that, to see what mode you are under and to what degree. that is the question one should normally place to ones guru or a siksa guide. As deena points out there are so many combinations described.
[quote][/quote]
In his instructions on gurukula Prabhupada mentioned that young boys can be identified according to guna at early stages. As far as I know so many teachers tried but all failed to see what it is clearly, they say its too complicated and clarity is all but lost, for example a person with very brahminical qualities would at one aspect will have heavy tamas presence, or someone with tamasic will show a clear desire to help others and will never ever complain. Such contradictions were atrributed to mixed up gotras or Kaliyuga progression. Its even harder for oneself to be identified by oneself. I was told about ten years ago that Sivarama svami seminar on three gunas of material nature was a good help, but I would never get time to listen to it and will probably never do it now.

My realization is each person is a mixture of the three modes.

If you imagine a three dimensional graph, where each of the axes represents one of the three modes, somewhere in that space your guna is located.

Otherwise I used to envision it as a spectrum with ignorance at one end and goodness at the other.

So different people have different amounts of different natures. No-one is purely anything, they are a mix of different degrees of the different natures.

> In his instructions on gurukula Prabhupada mentioned that young boys can be identified according to guna at early stages. As far as I know so many teachers tried but all failed to see what it is clearly, they say its too complicated and clarity is all but lost

Check http://www.veda.harekrsna.cz/bhaktiyoga/bhaktiyoga-7.htm#4

You can see gunas of a person from the way he spends his free time (unsupervised time in case of children):

http://www.veda.harekrsna.cz/bhaktiyoga/bhaktiyoga-4.htm#3

Further evidence of devotional service under the modes:

Bg 7.16
catur-vidhuc0u257 bhajante mu257 u109 u769 janu257 hu803 sukru803 tino rjuna
u257 rto jij'f1u257 sur arthu257 rthu299 j'f1u257 nu299 ca bharatarsu803 abha

O best among the Bhu257 ratas, four kinds of pious men begin to render devotional service unto Me '97 the distressed, the desirer of wealth, the inquisitive, and he who is searching for knowledge of the Absolute.

From the purport: "These persons come to the Supreme Lord for devotional service under different conditions. These are not pure devotees, because they have some aspiration to fulfill in exchange for devotional service."

I would say it is extremely necessary to study the symptoms of each guna, and them apply them to yourself, just as a doctor diagnoses a disease based on the symptoms. While it may be that a guru should diagnose ones mode and engage the disciple appropriately, hopefully one has enough intelligence to do it yourself. This seems to be what Prabhupada is indicating here: "One has to consider things carefully, with intelligence, in the association of a bona fide spiritual master. Thus one can change his position to a higher mode of nature." (Purport 17.2)

Krishna has given ample information for us to consider things carefully. For example, more than three quarters of the Bhagavad Gita consists of Krishna describing the qualities of tama, raja, sattva and suddha-sattva. In the Anu-gita, where Arjuna asks Krishna to repeat the teachings of the Gita, several chapters are dedicated to describing the qualities of tama, raja, sattva and suddha-sattva. Interestingly, there is one question Arjuna asks twice in the Gita: What are the symptoms of someone in suddha-sattva?" (2.54 and 14.21)

The difficulty in applying the qualities of the modes to oneself is that we may have a blind spot depending on our attachments and vested interests and may diagnose ourselves incorrectly. Krishna has provided Arjuna as the example in this connection. In chapter two Arjuna tries to justify a fault as virtue, and even uses sastra to try and validate his position. Ive lost count of the number of times Ive fallen into this trap. Therefore it is generally advisable to have a guru or sadhu or a well wishing prabhu to assist us in our diagnosis.

[quote][cite] sitapati:[/cite]My realization is each person is a mixture of the three modes.

If you imagine a three dimensional graph, where each of the axes represents one of the three modes, somewhere in that space your guna is located.

Otherwise I used to envision it as a spectrum with ignorance at one end and goodness at the other.

So different people have different amounts of different natures. No-one is purely anything, they are a mix of different degrees of the different natures.[/quote]

It could be right, but gunas sometimes are described as a progression. What is evident that there are mixtures of sattva and tamas, that defy the assumed linear progression of tamas-rajas-sattva. And some aspects of a person can be under different coordinates of the prism. So you can have sattvic-rajasic person who prefers to act sometimes in tamas and in other times in sattva mixed with tamas making it unpredictable.

BTW Bg 7.16 is not about modes but about motivation.

[quote][cite] VEDA:[/cite]>

You can see gunas of a person from the way he spends his free time (unsupervised time in case of children):

http://www.veda.harekrsna.cz/bhaktiyoga/bhaktiyoga-4.htm#3[/quote]

I honestly do not think that Jan was right to put this shaolin quote in the supposed section on bhakti yoga. Shaolin monks BTW have exact same difficulties with some of their western followers or people with mixed up families background.

[quote][cite] ccd: BTW Bg 7.16 is not about modes but about motivation.[/quote]

The modes determine ones motivations.

purusuc0u803 ahu803 prakru803 ti-stho hi bhuu324 kte prakru803 ti-ju257 n gunu803 u257 n ku257 ranu803 au109 u769 gunu803 a-sau324 go sya sad-asad-yoni-janmasu (Gita 13.22).

The cause (ku257 ranu803 au109 u769 ) of different bodies and circumstances is association with particular modes (gunu803 a-sau324 go).

[quote][cite] deena:[/cite][quote][cite] ccd: BTW Bg 7.16 is not about modes but about motivation.[/quote]

The modes determine ones motivations.

purusuc0u803 ahu803 prakru803 ti-stho hi bhuu324 kte prakru803 ti-ju257 n gunu803 u257 n ku257 ranu803 au109 u769 gunu803 a-sau324 go sya sad-asad-yoni-janmasu (Gita 13.22).

The cause (ku257 ranu803 au109 u769 ) of different bodies and circumstances is association with particular modes (gunu803 a-sau324 go).[/quote]

Type of body or type of conditioning will not influence pure devotional service and is not an obstactle for pure devotional service.
4 kinds of misra bhaktas in 7.16 are only motivated because of external to devotional service reasons, unless you belong to Sri sampradaya, who consider jnani to be the topmost devotee...The first three have karma miSra bhakti. The fourth has jN'e4na miSra bhakti. So clearly some of them are under modes of nature. These are not fixed devotees. The quality of devotional service will not be completely or practically fixed, its flickering under the modes of nature. I stay corrected, modes are a factor in motivation, but bhakti can be practiced, in an unsteady/motivated way.

the fact seems to remain, karma-mishra BHAKTI, jnana-mishra BHAKTI, bhakti can be practiced under the modes, as opposed to what some say:

- either cannot be practiced by someone under the modes or
- someone who practices cannot be under the modes

btw, both above misconceptions have been imho cause of much trouble in the spiritual lives of devotees.

[quote][cite] mishra:[/cite]
btw, both above misconceptions have been imho cause of much trouble in the spiritual lives of devotees.[/quote]
the real trouble is to think just because you (not others, just you) do devotional service, you are NOT under the modes of natu; or just because one is doing pure devotional service he/she is not influenced by the modes of nature. Even pure devotee may be not under CONTROL of the modes, but many of known pure devotees can be under the influence, while not under the control. What do you think? control vs influence

Questions for ccd:

1. Who are the "many -known- pure devotees influenced but not controled" by the modes? I wonder...

2. What is the subtle difference between control and influence of the modes upon a person?

As far as I know control and influence are listed as synonyms here:
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/control

"In the material world the living beings are influenced by the three material modes of nature, namely goodness, passion and ignorance. But uc0u346 ru299 Nu257 rada Muni is transcendental to all these material modes, and thus he can travel everywhere unrestricted. He is a liberated spaceman. The causeless mercy of Lord Visu803 nu803 u is unparalleled, and such mercy is perceived by the devotees only by the grace of the Lord. Therefore, the devotees never fall down, but the materialists, i.e., the fruitive workers and the speculative philosophers, do fall down, being forced by their respective modes of nature."

However in his previous Birth Narada was still under the influence of modes, even being an uttama bhakta: he was on the nitsha SB 1.5.27and he understood the influence of the modes: SB 1.5.31, and explained how conditioning (performing karma under triguna maya) is different from influence (when action applied therapeutically, cures the disease of conditioning) SB 1.5.33 he confirmed that only when he got his uttama uttama body he was free from karma and workings of material nature SB 1.6.28: u257 rabdha-karma-nirvu257 nu803 o nyapatat pu257 'f1ca-bhautikahu803 , as per direct words spoken to him by the Lord in his uttama kanitstha life, he had material dirt: avipakva-kasu803 u257 yu257 nu803 u257 u109 u775 durdaru347 o hau109 u775 kuyoginu257 m.

As confirmed in guru tattva sastra written by the only person who was allowed to perform aratik to Lord Caitanya:

na dosu803 u257 vaisu803 nu803 ave dru803 u347 yu257 hu803 karmu257 cu257 rahu803 vilokanu257 t |
karmu257 cu257 ra-viu347 uddhu257 vu257 ke santi kalim arditu257 hu803 ||17||

No one should find fault with a Vaisnava for his activities or behavior. What person is free from the influence of Kali Yuga or
has perfect pure behavior and action?

yato vaisu803 nu803 avu257 u110 u775 ge kru803 su803 nu803 u257 gnir vartate, u347 ru299 -kru803 su803 nu803 a-dhyu257 na-balu257 t pu257 taku257 ni patituu109 u775 na samarthu257 ni, patitu257 ny api kru803 su803 nu803 u257 gnau dagdhu257 nu299 ti |

Because the Vaisnava devotees of the Lord are always meditating on Lord Sri Krsna the contamination of sinful activities cannot overcome them. Because a Vaisnavas body has the fire of Krsna Consciousness within it, even if they are fallen, this fire of Krsna Consciousness will burn up to ashes any material contamination.

The above two verses explain difference between being under control and influenced and then being purified by the fire of KC. Did you actually think that anyone in this world would have no influence what so ever by the modes of nature? Even devotees like Arjuna can be under influence of gunas, without being under control of course.

Let me know what you think please.

The quoted verses above are from Sri Krsna Bhajanamrta by Narahari Sarkara Thakura.

> and explained how conditioning is different from influence SB 1.5.33

I dont find such an explanation in there. Can you please specify?