Pariprashnena — Q&A Archive

Pieces on Sampradaya Sun frequently utilize character assassination as a rhetorical device, which I personally find a turn-off. Its incompatible with the principles of Vedic culture.

"grham satrum api praptam visvastam akuto bhayam. Even an enemy enters your house, youll receive him in such a friendly way that he will forget that you are his enemy. That was the system."

- Srila Prabhupada, Lecture on Srimad Bhagavatam 2.3.17, Los Angeles, July 12, 1969

The articles often contain some valid points, but you dont have to disrespect someone personally to disagree with some of their actions or their ideas.

My personal take...

what is worse, offending while denouncing the truth, or sticking your head in the sand as if nothing happens?
I am a daring creature, I can'b4t never do the latter. So, pakoras. :)

Offering the choice as "be offensive or be naive" is misleading...

You *dont have to* insult people in order to hold them accountable.

In fact, Krishna explains in Bhagavad-gita that being expert in insulting others (while it might be entertaining) is a symptom of work in the mode of ignorance. (Bg.18.28)

You dont have to disrespect people personally to disagree with them; so while you cant never do the latter, you dont have to do the former either... :-)

It is amazing how one can pull verses and demonstrate the indemonstrable.

You seem to live in a Disneyworld of equity. The crude reality is, terrible things had already happened and still happening, and the worse is not whoever is perpetrating them, but the ones that look the other way, they are the real culprits. How easy and convenient is to label "offensive" "ritvik" or whatever is the demon label at the moment to relinquish ones responsability.

To shut your mouth is to be implicated in the wrong, no matter how you make up it with verses about offenses. The worst offender is the coward that lets the wrong doing go in the name of not committing offense, sanity, keeping peace, being spiritual, etc.

Cowards hide behind conclusions like yours while innocent suffer. Until you yourself get the sauce, then you can start crying in the dark, "muffled" by "spiritual" attitudes and discourses of your colleagues ostriches.

I only eat vegetarian pakoras cooked for the pleasure of Krsna. I would rather eat pizza from RM mahashop in Mayapur, then a nonveg pakora or even a veg pakora from outside (who knows what oil they use..).

I guess I state the obvious... for any devotee.

[quote][cite] ccd:[/cite]I only eat vegetarian pakoras cooked for the pleasure of Krsna. I would rather eat pizza from RM mahashop in Mayapur, then a nonveg pakora or even a veg pakora from outside (who knows what oil they use..).

I guess I state the obvious... for any devotee.[/quote]

He is referring to the 2 articles in the links, not to actual pizza-pakoras, :)

[quote][cite] mishra:[/cite][quote][cite] ccd:[/cite]I only eat vegetarian pakoras cooked for the pleasure of Krsna. I would rather eat pizza from RM mahashop in Mayapur, then a nonveg pakora or even a veg pakora from outside (who knows what oil they use..).

I guess I state the obvious... for any devotee.[/quote]

He is referring to the 2 articles in the links, not to actual pizza-pakoras, :)[/quote]

So do I... not too quick I guess. Why would I eat pakoras from outside if I can get both pizzas and pakoras on inside... I guess we have plenty of both so suit yourself. My kids like both and I think its good for them.

You dont have to insult people personally to hold them accountable.

I dont "keep my mouth shut" and ignore deviation when it is going on around me. I dont insult people personally either.

It doesnt have to be one or the other.

If you live in any kind of human community you are surrounded by people who require your active participation in protecting them. Its not just some mythical leaders who live in other countries and whom you write about on the internet. Here in Brisbane we have to deal with people all the time and hold them accountable for their actions and behaviour that doesnt meet the standards of the community. You can do it without being needlessly rude.

There is no need to assassinate peoples character simply because you disagree with some of their ideas or actions.

As Jesus said: "Hate the sin, not the sinner".

Insulting Vaisnavas is not holding them accountable, its succumbing to the lower modes and gratifying the envy that remains within us. Ill say it again: you can hold people accountable without insulting them.

Unfortunately a lot of the articles on Sampradaya Sun unnecessarily attack people personally, and in doing so they contaminate whatever other good points they might make.

***Please note that at no stage have I used the word "offense"***. Were talking about simple good manners here ("a Vaisnava is a perfect gentleman"), **not** ignoring wrong doing or hiding behind the idea of "offenses".

Its also ironic (hypocritical?) to justify avaisnava behaviour in the name of holding people accountable for avaisnava behaviour.

Like thats really going to work... passion and ignorance cannot be defeated by more passion and ignorance, only by goodness and pure goodness.

If near insult articles are written is many times the consequence of precisely the leaders not being accountable, so the only means left is the public denounce.

Insulting is clearly out of the picture.

If attacking, you mean pointing out improper behaviour with the purpose of helping and/or protecting vaishnava prrinciples and devotees, then anything out of HARIBOL will be attack.

Let you go into trouble and will see if the mechanism you defend protects you. But, probably you have learned to "swim and keep safe the clothes".

What is not fair is to bring the ball back to the attackers and disregard the truth that might be in their "offensive" writings. This is going on, and in a way you protect the wrongdoers as after the dismiss. all comes to normality, nothing being done and you satisfied to having curbed an "aparadhi".

I am really feed up with the "offense technique" . Heard it so many times as a very convenient tool to shut up inconvenient truths.

First, show me a VAISHNAVA, then we can talk about vaishnava aparadha. We are talking here about normal dealings with normal people that happily happen to be under the mercy of Srila Prabhupada, all spiced up with social etiquette and ordinary respect, but VAISHNAVA? That is a big word Prabhu.

When it is convenient we are strict Vedic followers, guardians of dharma; when it suit us, we can embrace whitewash new age principles, modes and leaders.
When convenient we worship our guru as the ray of Vishnu in grand gurupuja, when it suit us, we acknowledge the fact that the "guy might need help", so let him go to guru seminar.
That is just madness.

If the actual goal is to effect change then there are ways to do that.

Insulting someone is not the way to effect change, rather it is a combination of three things: a desire to effect change, a sense of powerlessness, and residual passion and ignorance.

The formula for actually holding a Vaisnava accountable is:

1. Be a good example yourself
2. Honor the Vaisnava
3. Respect the devotional service
4. Challenge the inappropriate behaviour

Writing people off and treating them badly because you disagree with something that they have done or said is not right, no matter how hard you try to justify it. Of course there are faults, but these faults must be addressed in a sattvic manner.

I say it again: passion and ignorance are not counter-acted by more passion and ignorance, but by sattva and suddha-sattva.

It is hypocritical to challenge avaisnava behaviour in an avaisnava way. This is not offering a positive alternative, but is more like saying: "You shouldnt be in charge, I should!"

If you should be in charge, then demonstrate your superior qualification by going up, not by trying to pull others down. Thats how Srila Prabhupada did it.

One other thing prabhu, on a more personal note:

"Let you go into trouble and will see if the mechanism you defend protects you. But, probably you have learned to "swim and keep safe the clothes"."

With due respect, you dont know what Ive been through, and Id appreciate it if you didnt keep repeating things that basically say: "You are naive because youve never been in trouble, or been mistreated or let down in ISKCON."

Let me just say that the very reason that I speak to these issues and quote a lot of our scriptural tradition in relation to it is precisely because I have had to go deep into it in order to keep myself stabilized and on the path.

ISKCON, and in fact any organization in this world, is a turbulent place. As Srila Prabhupada said: "If you put knives and forks together in a drawer they will make some noise."

The reaction to the inevitable discovery that ISKCON is filled with conditioned souls can be disillusionment and frustration, or it can urge you to go deeper into the process and the tradition, and the essence of Krishna consciousness.

I would urge the second path. Then you can become a stable point in the society and a positive influence, rather than just adding more agitation.

Whatever discussion we have should always take us back to scripture and our tradition, in a timeless way, rather than taking us back out into a world of our conditioned responses, relativity, and fallible persons.

"Whatever you desire to describe that is separate in vision from the Lord simply reacts, with different forms, names and results, to agitate the mind as the wind agitates a boat which has no resting place."
- SB. 1.5.14

The point is that the process works. It is specifically designed to be robust enough to survive the failure of multiple components. Thats the reality of the material world, and thats why the process is based on guru, sadhu, and sastra. And dont forget that it is the perfection of religion and is su-sukham kartam avyayam, "always joyfully performed." :-)

Anyway, personally, I would appreciate it if you would stop characterizing me as someone who lives in a naive idealized world because I have never experienced the dark underside of ISKCON personally. Its a personal character-targeting rhetorical device which is good for rabble rousing debates, but is not so good for Vaisnava dialog.

Experienced the underside sure you have, the problem is how we react to it. My point is and was simple and it is the object of my meditation here: where do you draw the line, if you speak (and that happens no matter how polite/vaishnava/politicallycorrect you put it, you are banned. So, the only choice to remain socially faithful to the institution is to shut up. But then, arent you failing to the sattva guna principle of truth, the very foundation of vaishnava principles?

I am not willing to get personal with you just because I do not know you. If I kind of get a bit harsh, please take it as a rhetorical figure to call for personal stirring of feelings, but not meant to accuse or demean you in anyway.

hehehe, youre definitely good at "the stirring of feelings"... :-)

I know at least one place where you can speak your mind without fear of being banned, although you have to put up with me butting in every couple of minutes.

I deeply value our exchanges here on pariprashnena.com, and I think its a valuable forum and resource that youve created.

I think that a new era of diversity and open dialog is dawning in ISKCON, which is becoming more and more broad a community each day, and this is definitely part of that dynamic.

As a side note, there is another person that works here, but wants to keep aloof from public cheer/harass exposition :) My thanks go to "it". shhhhhhhh.

according to ayur veda, pizzas are not healthy...so eat pakoras!!!

[quote][cite] abhiram:[/cite]according to ayur veda, pizzas are not healthy...so eat pakoras!!![/quote] And according to...swami pizza is a self realised chapati. Eat pizza (upps not pizzas)..