Pariprashnena — Q&A Archive

I guess the answer is sravanam kirtanam visnoh smaranam is really the process. I suggest study of Bhagavatam and Kirtanrasa as the main processes for all leaders of the society.

I mean at least 3-4 hours they should spend doing it daily. ys

Ah, chanting, yes I forgot that,, silly me :)
But, wait isnt that the same recipe as always, chant and do menial service... what is wrong?
Either chanting doesnt work, cause we have been doing it for years now, or there is more to it.
Funny that the elite can concoct all kinds of processes, seminars, guru training workshops, Phd Universitiy special 5 years time, etc and we the grassroots just chant, read and shut up, you over-intelligent!
So, we must conclude that KC is simple for the plain devotees and complex for the elite. How is that for spiritual understanding...

[quote][cite] mishra:[/cite]Ah, chanting, yes I forgot that,, silly me :)
But, wait isnt that the same recipe as always, chant and do menial service... what is wrong?
Either chanting doesnt work, cause we have been doing it for years now, or there is more to it.
Funny that the elite can concoct all kinds of processes, seminars, guru training workshops, Phd Universitiy special 5 years time, etc and we the grassroots just chant, read and shut up, you over-intelligent!
So, we must conclude that KC is simple for the plain devotees and complex for the elite. How is that for spiritual understanding...[/quote]

You are judging and minmising potency processes of bhakti. First is acceptable but never in combination with the second. IMHO.

BTW not just chaning. More chanting... you missed the point. As I said:

"I suggest study of Bhagavatam and Kirtanrasa as the main processes for all leaders of the society."

Any other seminars etc are secondary...

OK, next time my car dies, I will sit and chant. Sorry again, Prabhu. Pardon this infidel.

[quote][cite] mishra:[/cite]OK, next time my car dies, I will sit and chant. Sorry again, Prabhu. Pardon this infidel.[/quote]
It will die and its good to chant.. what it has to do with anything.. besides your attititude?

Either your car dies or the institution falls apart around you - you keep doing service and chanting and you will go back to Godhead. Thats the process.

My wife was initiated by Kirtanananda Swami and went through the break up of New Vrndavan. If you keep chanting and stay focused on the process everything else can fall away around you, but you will go through it.

We have guru, sadhu, and sastra, and the process that these three give us, to sustain us. The goal, krishna-prema, is real, and our experience of that is the reality that sustains us when illusory structures around us turn to mist and blow away in the wind.

At the same time, to protect the institution each of us should be firmly anchored in these three. When devotees are irresponsible and overly rely on the guru to do all their thinking, give them their understanding, and even do their sadhana, then they are asking for trouble. If they overly rely on sadhu and have no accountability with anyone, picking and choosing advice as they like, then they are asking for trouble. If they overly rely on sastra, interpreting it according to their conditioned state and desire to see something there, then they are asking for trouble.

Healthy bhakti requires proper balanced integration of all three:

sadhu sastra guru vakya
cittete koriya aikya

When the members of the institution are doing this, then there is some strength in the structure, and there can be mutual accountability. The participants have to bring their conscience with them (cittete koriya aikya), and then they can respectfully hold even spiritual superiors accountable, as Srila Narahari Sarkar explains: "Even the spiritual master can be challenged..."

Of course, respect is the basis of all relationship in Vaisnava and Vedic culture: amanina manadena. A Vaisnava is a perfect gentleman. Without respect for devotees (simple good manners) there is only kanistha-adhikari mentality at best. And a society of kanistha-adhikaris is trouble.

Otherwise we should be good practitioners ourselves, understand and follow the rules and regulations and process with good guidance (and know how to distinguish good guidance from bad), conscientiously participate (follow your conscience), and treat others with respect.

This will generate a healthy organization that is capable of self-healing.

I agree with your last post almost totally (aint that rare and wonderful?) :)

Problem is that the "just chant and do service" thingy is pleasing and convenient for the bad apples. If nothing else is done.

You going back to Godhead as result of following blindly wrong leaders doesnt stand.
If you follow wrong leaders (being yourself so nice and humble of course) then you are not going back to Godhead, you are probably going to the paradise fools loka.

Humble is not simpleton, spiritual life is not automatic, you key the right numbers in the ATM and the lakshmi flows out.
If basic intelligence is not there, the spiritual world is far far away, and just in your dreams.

So, we are being practical in so many things, doing so many things apart from chanting to achieve our goals. but when it comes to a delicate point.... "Just chant".

The philosophy and practical application of our principles, seem to make a sharp turn depending on the target.

Why you do not apply same thing to leaders planning guruship seminars? Tell them "just chant and everything will be OK".

Seems to me that philosophy is only applied to make the grassroots devotees inconvenient questions and worries go away. But they do not.

Whoever is happily preaching the ostrich philosophy "just chant" are responsible for our movement'b4s decline and will held accountable, more so that the bad apples.

At the end they are the real culprits, by cheer leading and supporting them.

And, yes, I am chanting (enough or not must not be in your list of tasks to discern).

And, no. I am not being offensive, just practical and concerned. :)

Mishra, please show me where I said "just chant and everything will be OK"?

I said that through the process of chanting and doing service you will go back to Godhead.

I then explained that the process is based on guru, sadhu, and sastra. The reason the process is like this is precisely to avoid being mislead by bad leaders. The responsibility lies with the individual to situate themselves in this (cittete koriya aikya)

I then went on to give an explanation of how individuals situate themselves, and how they then combine to form a robust association. The same principle is true for the "rank and file" and the "gurus". They are stronger together than they are individually. When healthy cells come together they can form a healthy organism.

Why do you keep reducing my statements to your own strawman arguments?:

"* Just chant and ignore everything else"
"* Just ignore deviation and keep your mouth shut otherwise it is offensive"

I have never said these things, nor do I agree with them.

You have the responsibility to chart your way back with the aid of guru, sadhu, and sastra. It relies on your own active participation, and if you are cheated then part of the responsibility lies with you.

You can hold even superiors accountable, but it must be done properly, as I explained in another thread, in sattva and suddha-sattva.

I answered that just because the subject matter of the question is "what are the mechanisms" and you basically responded :

"Either your car dies or the institution falls apart around you - you keep doing service and chanting and you will go back to Godhead. Thats the process."
"My wife was initiated by Kirtanananda Swami and went through the break up of New Vrndavan. If you keep chanting and stay focused on the process everything else can fall away around you, but you will go through it."
"Otherwise we should be good practitioners ourselves, understand and follow the rules and regulations and process"

and I summarized that like this:

"just chant and do service"

My concern is that after your shastric insights, everything will stay the same, no mechanisms to protect us from becoming a religion.

We can talk and talk and talk, but if something is not done, and soon, the ugly reality will show its face, no matter how grand the wording has been.

When gurus in ISKCON see problems with their service, they take action, not just deliberate in a class about the principles but draw a plan to fix the situation.

So, in a nutshell I am asking for defined actions, not just a nice and scholar explanation on how it should ideally be.