Pariprashnena — Q&A Archive

I think it sits on a very fine line, is the devotee doing it for the lord or for the money?

Just to clarify:
I am not refering to devotees that have a job and earn money. I am speaking about devotees who perform devotional activities and are paid for doing that.

yes, so am i, at the moment this seems to be happening at many temples now, the devotees who come regularly or those who stay at the temple like cooks gardeners or regular services are being paid, which was and is ideally voluntary. however for some devotees it is understandable according to certain individual situations why they get paid, and i guess just to keep the envy and politics away they pay every one...

but still, depends on the individual, is he doing it for his advancement and the pleasure of krishna, or for himself? i think that draws the line...

but then it can not be called "devotional" service right? then it is service like many companies offer. Products and services.

True, very true, but cant be said for those who do not care for the luxmi, or those who use it to do more service like book distribution, out of many, ive seen a few "paid" devotees who are really sincere about their service... so i guess its the matter of the devotees attitude

If youre being underpaid, the difference between your and a normal salary is an offering to Krishna, a charity. Depending on other factors, its BG 11.55 or 12.10.

and if you are being overpayed?

Gauri das is now the temple president at the Bhaktivedanta Manor, one of the most prominent temples in ISKCON, he receives a wage of about US$ 60000 a year complete with and enviable pension scheme from Prabhupada'92s money for his '93service'94. He is honored as a senior and respectable member of the community. He has a contract that when he leaves, for two years he will receive the full salary.

would he have to return the money next life?

[quote][cite] diyourself:[/cite]and if you are being overpayed?

Gauri das is now the temple president at the Bhaktivedanta Manor, one of the most prominent temples in ISKCON, he receives a wage of about US$ 60000 a year complete with and enviable pension scheme from Prabhupada'92s money for his '93service'94. He is honored as a senior and respectable member of the community. He has a contract that when he leaves, for two years he will receive the full salary.

would he have to return the money next life?[/quote]

Does that include free room and board?

BG 11.55: My dear Arjuna, he who engages in My pure devotional service, free from the contaminations of fruitive activities and mental speculation, he who works for Me, who makes Me the supreme goal of his life, and who is friendly to every living being '97 he certainly comes to Me.

BG 12.10: If you cannot practice the regulations of bhakti-yoga, then just try to work for Me, because by working for Me you will come to the perfect stage.

Two points on overpayment:

In case of TPs, etc. there is no standard karmi salary to compare with, unlike standard jobs like those in BBT.

Who decided how much he gets? I suppose some board. If they could find someone who would want to accept such responsibility for less, I suppose theyd be happy.

I will offer myself at half price... no problem.
I dont think money is the problem there and if they were willing to save they would have done so.
Strange thing is.... why an "advanced" devotee would be willing to accept that huge salary? Is he spending 50 percent in prasadam distribution or books printing?
Is that a good preaching to the outside world? Not even the cardinal get so much money, I think.
And the Church IS rich.

Although nowadays it seems to be regarded as "normal", it is clearly not the intent of Srila Prabhupada and there are letters that clearly prohibit wages.

Are we becoming this?

Priests in Ireland work six days a week. They are encouraged to take one day off. In quieter parishes, some priests also get Sunday afternoons to themselves

'97 They receive the statutory 21 days'92 holiday every year, although they are expected to work on Bank Holidays

'97 Priests are on call 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, and will respond immediately to midnight phone calls summoning them to the bedsides of seriously ill patients

'97 Would-be priests who enter seminary spend seven years training. The retention rate of those who enter compared with those who get ordained is about 60 per cent

'97 Priests are self-employed and receive a stipend of '801,000 ('a3750) a month. This grows dependent on years of service and can also increase if priests take on extra jobs outside their parish responsibilities.

'97 Retirement age for priests is 75 but most continue if they are in good health. Older priests give up their parish administrative duties but continue to celebrate Mass and the sacraments

source: http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/faith/article3441821.ece

the very nature of the leader has to be detached, so the brahmana takes the post.
the householders provide the maintenance of the temple to run the preaching and temple services
Now if the brahmanas are seen as bums and businessman are in charge of temples, it is only natural that they start thinking of wages.
Remember, shudras rely on wages, and vaishyas control them in this way.
By instituting a culture of wages, we are killing the natural flow of Krishna consciousness.
If you are bored and have some time to kill go and read my articles on the subject, attached

Ideally there are
1. pure brahmanas and ksatriyas with minimal physical requirements (or ones own income) supported by
2. congregation and/or
3. book distribution, restaurants, shops, etc.

But to find such first class (or wealthy/retired) persons is hard and second class ones are needed (and paid). Therefore SP stressed that varnasrama starts with qualified brahmanas.

Here in CZ we have 1+3.

you can call is anything you want... my five cents.. I suggest being paid by prasadam (and that you can sell)...

does that mean that payed devotees like some temple presidents belong to second class congregation type of devotee?

Apart, WHO is not finding? Seems like mode of goodness has dissapeared from the earth?
Maybe we should change the chosers so that the chosen meet the standards.

If you offer preaching and austerities., brahmanas will flock, if you offer wages, shudra will come. Simple.

>I will offer myself at half price... no problem.

Are you qualified for the job?

[quote][cite] Gopika:[/cite]>I will offer myself at half price... no problem.

Are you qualified for the job?[/quote]

Are you on the Manor board panel?

Mishra, please understand second class in the context I mentioned. The first class level should serve as an inspiration, not as a condemnation of others.

yes, my intent is not to be mean, still second class means the ones that take inspiration not the ones that can give inspiration.
no devotee is bad unles they are not properly placed as this seems to be the case, imho.

This is an important difference. First class (unmotivated bhaktas) is a source of inspiration while second class (karma-misra, jnana-misra, yoga-misra motivated bhaktas) need more or less inspiration depending on how much their material tendencies are standing in the way.

If you are being paid can you call it devotional service?

Good question... there are many points to consider.

- If a sannyasi is getting donations from the congregation and using part of these donations for his material needs and maintenance, is it a devotional service? Lets say a householder devotee gets a modest salary (required for his or her familys maintenance) for working in the temple full time cooking for the Deities. How is it different from the sannyasis use of donations for personal needs? In both cases devotees have legitimate needs that must be satisfied. I do not see our sannyasis looking for clothes they need in a city garbage dumpster. How do we expect our householders to clothe their kids?

- Precisely what is it about the work we perform that makes it a devotional service? If we are getting room and board at the temple in return for our service, is it not still accepting some material payment for services rendered? Only receiving actual money that turns it into a material activity? How about a free trip to India once a year? Does that turn our devotional service into a common work contract? Dvotional service is work done with devotion, where Krishna is benefitting. Are the servants of the King not paid by him? Does he begrudge them for accepting payment needed for their maintenance?

- Lets be practical. What if we cant find a qualified person to run a temple without offering them a salary? Should we give it to some spaced out bhakta just because he will do this job for free?

It is amazing how some people manage to turn simple things into great controversies.

"- If a sannyasi is getting donations from the congregation and using part of these donations for his material needs and maintenance, is it a DS?"

its a good point. According to bhag sannyasi needs to spend only as long as the cow is milked at housholders asrama. So yes minimal care for the body is needed.

And yes one thing is begging and another is the conception that ONE NEEDS TO GET PAID. Big big difference. First makes you a devotee. Second makes you a karmi. Prabhupada was very strict as far as BBT is concerned and made sure nobody is paid for work they publish in his BBT, ie authors do not get anything... hm something..

[quote][cite] ccd:[/cite]"- And yes one thing is begging and another is the conception that ONE NEEDS TO GET PAID. Big big difference. First makes you a devotee. Second makes you a karmi. Prabhupada was very strict as far as BBT is concerned and made sure nobody is paid for work they publish in his BBT, ie authors do not get anything... hm something..[/quote]

And why is there a need for begging? Because one needs things to keep his body and soul together. Same with the salary.

We live in the West and even our sannyasis dont do madhukari door to door. They are supported by donations from the congregation. If a congregation decides that they want to pay a reasonable salary to their temple servants, what business do we have to criticize their choice?

Prabhupada had a huge supply of servants with minimal needs willing to work for free. Unfortunately the realities of life caught up with our movement and such people are now in short supply. We can learn and adapt, or try to stick to the old ways that got us where we are now.

Its a stange thing to ask: And why is there a need for begging?

Do you know about dependance on Krsna. Did you read how Sanatana would beg in front of mandir in Puri and how Lord Caitanya appreciated it. Did you ever read about a practice of Madhukari makes one humble.

Door to door madhukari (should be at least) the same as preaching and being supported by congregation.

The important principle that one MUST understand about salary. ONCE money are offered to Krsna, they are HIS. It means they are no longer of this world and should not be enjoyed by anyone and no one BUT Krsna. One can not use oil from the altar for onces own light. That is the basic principle on which ALL sucess of ISKCON was based and not following of this principle is the cause of ruination and the curse that is put on so many temples, that do not follow this principle.

One can be provided (being in service) but can not be paid (by money that belong or donated to the Deity). If a sallary is paid it must be paid by individuals or organisations that do not collect directly for the Deity - in fact a business of congregation is to maintain sevakas of the temple.

Not following the above principle CAUSED our movement to loose what was given by Prabhupada. Now we have GBCs being paid salaries from the donations and using it for thier family needs - is there a great sin? Compared to taking Laksmi from Narayana and enjoying Her as if she was meant for you to enjoy even a sin of child abuse or killing a brahmana is absolutely nothing. "Ravanas in dhotis", thats how it should be called (BTW Ravana used to wear a dhoti) Pardon my french..

ys

when I was brahmacari, I was tended to my bare necessities, but collected and worked full time for temple.
Excuse me if I do not buy that paying salary is the same or "if there is no one else".
There is no shortage of conditioned souls ready for service if one goes out to find them. Problem is corporate religion is easier to implement under the lower modes, passion is easier but ends in suffering, remember?
One excuse after another and you can end.... where we are.

[quote][cite] ccd:[/cite]Its a stange thing to ask: And why is there a need for begging?

Do you know about dependance on Krsna. Did you read how Sanatana would beg in front of mandir in Puri and how Lord Caitanya appreciated it. Did you ever read about a practice of Madhukari makes one humble.
[/quote]

My point was that madhukari is not practiced in ISKCON now, and that it never was. One way or another one must fulfill his basic needs, even a sannyasi. I do not see people protesting that sannyasis use some of the money people donate to them for their personal use. Forthe most part there is no accountablity for such money. Yet you demand that other servants in the temple must not receive any money. That is a strange logic to me.

[quote][cite] mishra:[/cite] Problem is corporate religion is easier to implement under the lower modes, passion is easier but ends in suffering, remember?
[/quote]

As a society, we are so far from being a well run corporate religion that something like the system most churches have seems to be a major improvement over the current state of affairs.

When you were a brahmacari you say the temple tended to your basic needs. Great. This is the way it should be. And then what happened?

What happened?

Ill tell you, that brahmacary married, still goes out to preach, got a temple up from scratch in the 90s and knows very well that the principles laid by Srila Prabhupada, those same principles without structural changes WORK and if there are wages and concoctions of this sort is precisely because we are not implementing them in the society.

That brahmacari still does full time service without wages and the same time supports a family (I count supporting a vaishnava family as service too, apart from the direct service).

So, do not say it is not possible, Just say you do not know or you cant.

Were we the only specimens of a rare extinguished species, or we are failing as society to bring new blood and continue the natural cycle, brahmacari-preacher, householder preacher, etc.

btw, was Srila Prabhupada goal to become a "well run" religious society?

it maybe that the process of madhukari in the letter was not followed.

In spirit it was followed when everything was by means of collection during sankirtana.

There is no justification of the crime of paying off Krsnas money. Even a sannyasi who takes too much and does not distributes the excess is not as bad. Prabhupada took so much personally, but he always used money and gave then back in the form of his Book fund. Did he ever pay anyone to do service? He repeated again and again... I do not pay these boys and girls... ahaitiku.

>That brahmacari still does full time service without wages and the same time supports a family (I count supporting a vaishnava family as service too, apart from the direct >service).

May I ask how you support your family? If you are doing fulltime service where do you find the time to collect/earn the money for your familys upkeep? Or do you have a privat trustfund/inhertance you live off? How does it all come together?

The principle is simple. If you want to live a life of a beggar, dependent, live in the temple (with or without family).
If you want salary live outside, independent.

> That brahmacari still does full time service without wages and the same time supports a family

What is the source of that support? Donations, job, investments, ...? Hope you dont mind this question. It can help others as an example.

[quote][cite] mishra:[/cite]What happened?

Ill tell you, that brahmacary married, still goes out to preach, got a temple up from scratch in the 90s and knows very well that the principles laid by Srila Prabhupada, those same principles without structural changes WORK and if there are wages and concoctions of this sort is precisely because we are not implementing them in the society.

That brahmacari still does full time service without wages and the same time supports a family (I count supporting a vaishnava family as service too, apart from the direct service).

So, do not say it is not possible, Just say you do not know or you cant.

Were we the only specimens of a rare extinguished species, or we are failing as society to bring new blood and continue the natural cycle, brahmacari-preacher, householder preacher, etc.

btw, was Srila Prabhupada goal to become a "well run" religious society?[/quote]

That is certainly impressive and laudable. Still, it is an exception, not a rule in our society. Most devotees I know struggle financially to maintain their families and keep their sadhana and devotional service alive. Very, very few are supported by temples and congregations.

As to Prabhupadas goal, here is one quote from a very important declaration:

Tittenhurst, 1 October, 1969
KRISHNA CONSCIOUSNESS: THE SANKIRTANA MOVEMENT

The International Society for Krishna Consciousness is a bonafide religious society strictly following the principles described in the Vedic scriptures and practiced in India for thousands of years...
A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami

http://www.krishnaconsciousnessmovement.com/tittenhurst.html

Of course his goal was for ISKCON to become a well run religious society!

the example was given to show that:

1. it is possible
2. the new grihastas can be replaced by new brahmacaries, if we simply follow Srila Prabhupada simple program

it is an exception because we are not following what Srila Prabhupada stipulated, and through all these years, we have shifted to the new paradigm. So it is not that the "old" way does not work, it is the new one implemented 30 years ago that is the culprit.

Regarding religious society, Srila Prabhupada also said, do not become a Catholic Church, I mean in that sense, Prabhu.

I understand your points. Still, just because some things are possible, that does not mean that they are a practical solution for most people in most places. Chanting 64 rounds is possible but not practical for most people under most circumstances. Life has a way to perform a reality check on most ideas which are put in practice. There were very serious problems facing ISKCON when Srila Prabhupada was still present and our movement burned through a lot of brahmacaris and brahmacarinis in those days as well. How sustainable was that "burn rate" is a matter of opinion, but Srila Prabhupada was a practical person who adjusted things based on reality on the ground. Just like he did with the initial requirement that his disciples are to chant 64 rounds per day. The realization that there is a need to make adjustments in practical matters sometimes happens very quickly (the case of requiring 64 rounds), and sometimes it takes a decade (like in the case of giving sannyasa to young, inexperienced, and ambitious disciples). But the adjustments were certainly made over the years by Srila Prabhupada, based on the rule of "Judge by the results".

if the brahmacari is well trained, he wont "burn" and abandon the preaching altogether. In fact, that renunciation will be the saving beacon for himself and others.
All was adjusted by Srila Prabhupada, now, who is making changes? That is the point.
We have to be extra careful, as in changing we could easily loose the focus.This past 30 years has not been precisely very brilliant... could be the "changes"?
Am for one that we have to go back to the grassroots, harinam, books, nice temple atmosphere, festivals, free Sunday feast, etc etc
Otherwise and sadly it is happening right now, we are becoming a religion.
I am everyday in the street and i can assure you, people do not like religions. Unless we are something else, the spiritual vibrant movement that we are meant to be, its not worth even trying. We are finished.

regarding the original question.. can be called "karma mishra bhakti" or devotional service tinged mainly with the mode of passion, that is for personal gain, etc

Everytime I try to do some service in the temple, they make me pay for it. I feel like not coming anymore, I just can not afford to do any service! Is there any instruction on why I should pay to do a service (I wish they pay me instead!)

this tendency is prominent now in temples. I know a very nice devotee that was refused to do service in a festival. Reasons? none.

> Is there any instruction on why I should pay to do a service

No such instruction. Where is this going on? These temples should be reported to the local authority.

you have to pay to do service? which temple is that?

easy pizzy question, easy answer:
In the past, the ones working were paying so that devotees can do service, now you have to pay to do service so that others can get a wage for doing work, like Sri Gaurangi from the BBT(i).
That is the upside world of ISKCON, mates!