Pariprashnena — Q&A Archive

...depending on what offense your guru may have commited,and depending on his asrama, sometimes sucide is recommended as the appropriate attonement,what did your guru do ?

Totally. I think gurus should be suicidal by default...

He met a woman and then left the movement to be with her. So you are saying that we should not obey Srila Prabhupadas instructions???? Anyway, I forgive him a long time ago. I wish him well. However, I will never ever forgive the ritviks for being so cruel and vicious!!!!!!! What a horrible thing for anyone to tell another human being to do. Only a very evil person would say such terrible things!!!!!

I wonder what ritvik it was. Is it married again Hanzaduta buddy? He may even supply some tools I guess... at a reasonable cost and with a delivery.

BTW just because someone got married does not make him a not-guru, in fact NOT being married is a problem (as we all realized by now)... (that is according to the sastra of course, but who cares about it?)

[quote][cite] hariharibol:[/cite]...depending on what offense your guru may have commited,and depending on his asrama, sometimes sucide is recommended as the appropriate attonement,what did your guru do ?[/quote]
Can you give a reference for this statement? I doubt whether Srila Prabhupada would want anyone to commit suicide, what to speak of a devotee of Krsna....I dont recall reading or hearing of Srila Prabhupada recommending suicide to any of his disciples...

Maybe what the rtvik was referring to was back in the mid 70s Vishnujan Swami asked Srila Prabhupad what a person in the renounced order should do if he feels he is about to fall down. Srila Prabhupad told him it would be "Better" for such a person to commit suicide, then to fall down. The next day Vishnujan Maharaj told devotees he was going to take bath in the Ganges, and was never seen again.

[quote][cite] blackcat99:[/cite]He met a woman and then left the movement to be with her. So you are saying that we should not obey Srila Prabhupadas instructions???? Anyway, I forgive him a long time ago. I wish him well. However, I will never ever forgive the ritviks for being so cruel and vicious!!!!!!! What a horrible thing for anyone to tell another human being to do. Only a very evil person would say such terrible things!!!!![/quote]

He SHOULD have followed SPs advice...

Blackcat99 should be more cautious, as he/she is liking Srila Prabhupad to a very evil person, because Srila Prabhupad had, in fact, told Vishnujan that a sannyasi who knows he is about to fall down would be better off to commit suicide. In Blackcat99s estimation SP was also cruel and vicious!?!? That person who made that comment could have been any devotee who had knowledge of what SP said, be he/she rtvik or not. Rtvik has nothing to do with this. It is knowing what SP said, if a sannyasi, guru or not, knows he is about to fall down, SP DID IN FACT give the advice that it was BETTER that they commit suicide rather then fall down. To this day Vishnujan is RESPECTED and Honored for his "Noble" act. What is noble about committing suicide? On its own - Nothing - on its own such an act is deplorable. What is Noble is that it took far more guts, far more conviction, far more faith to carry out Srila Prabhupads advice in this way, then it would have taken to fall down. All Glories To Vishnujan Maharaj !!!!

And, what about Mahaprabhus expelling Chota Hari das from his association? Chota Haridas then committed suicide. On hearing that Chota Haridas did this, Mahaprabhu said nothing. Similarly on hearing of Vishnujans most likely suicide, our SP also said nothing. Grave silence. Then, if i recall, my memory is a bit fuzzy on this, I think SP wrote a letter saying that Vishujan had gone to the heavenly planets for 10,000 yr, after which he would either go to Krsna Loka, or be given another chance to do so.
Those sannyasis who fell down in SPs presence, he always continued to engage them in service, he did not reject them or kick them out. But, he never wrote that they would be going to the heavenly planets and then get another chance to back home...

Since Vishnujans noble act, I can think of no other ISKCON renounciates who, rather then risk the reactions of falling down, had the faith, conviction, and guts to take their own lives first, rather then discredit themselves and SP - be they rtvik or not, makes absolutely no difference.
-- Gopal Raj

[quote][cite] rajavidyam:[/cite] Similarly on hearing of Vishnujans most likely suicide, our SP also said nothing. Grave silence. [/quote]

Prabhupada said that it would be better if Visnujana had married. Prabhupada never put down any of his disciples for getting married. He personally married one of his sannyasis in NY - there is a good video of this ceremony.

Thanks all. I also heard that Prabhupada said that it would have been much better if Vishnujana had married instead of commiting suicide. I heard that after the suicide of Visnujana that Prabhupada specifically said that suicide is not be done.
However, I really didnt know that Prabhupada had personally married one of his sannyasis in NY. Thats very interesting.

To ccd; Regarding your statements about Hansadutta, they are neophyte, juvenile, inaccurate and incorrect. First of all; you could never reach the height of service he has provided to Prabhupada and Krsna, regardless of the fall down so many years ago. In fact, he has done more service than you could ever hope to accomplish in your entire life time. Fall down or no fall down, anything you say against people like Hansadutta could never take away the service they have provided. What have you done for Srila Prabhupada? What service do you provide for him at present? Each time you speak Bubba, at least in this forum, your true envious nature is revealed. Prabhupada used to say," Better to remain silent than to speak unintelligently".

Well here is your answer..

[quote][cite] Priyavrata das:[/cite]...you could never reach the height of service he has provided to Prabhupada and Krsna, regardless of the fall down so many years ago. <snip> Each time you speak Bubba, at least in this forum, your true envious nature is revealed. Prabhupada used to say," Better to remain silent than to speak unintelligently".[/quote]
I always like that expression - that better to be silent then to speak unintelligently...</b> Thank you for providing a proof that concludes the discussion and is exposing the ultimate hypocrisy; ritviks are always quick to point out faults in others, up to the ridiculous and ultimately sectarian suggestion of suicide, as for themselves they maintain a separate standard. Not to discourage you in your service to the ritvk-acarya. It was people like him who practiced motivated service for years and drove off from the compassionate and practical way established by Prabhupada. Please let me remain always critical, not of him personally, but of the attitude and type of dis-service that he represents.

To ccd; Yes, I like that expression also. In this particular case, you should take those words to heart mate. For, they apply to you directly. In any event, I agree with you to the extent that the "Ritviks" dont practice what they preach regarding the issue of suicide for one who has fallen down. Prabhupada was asked this question many times and always said; " It is not recommended in this age, ESPECIALLY in ISKCON".
As far as you discouraging me in my service, you dont have the shakti to do such a thing. You give yourself way too much credit Bubba.
Lets be real now mate. You too are a fault finder, just as the "Ritviks" are. Furthermore, your statements regarding Hansadutta are most certainly personal attacks. (Hanzaduta buddy) Unless you know Hansadutta today, your statements can only be based on twenty year old second hand rumor and conjecture. I know Hansadutta for many years, and I also know the things he did. Both good and not so good. However, I can say without question that he has long since rectified himself. Which is more than I can say for the others who have fallen. Dont take my word for any of this. Hansadutta has a web-site, which Im sure you know. Contact him, see where hes at, then draw your conclusions and make your comments. Until then, "better to remain silent".

Here is a site that explains to my personal satisfaction what transpired with His Holiness Visnujana Swami : http://members.aol.com/gauridas/vjdis.htm

I think in the entire Shastra there is not one incident of a Vaishnava instructing or recommending that another person take his or her own life. It is, to me, ludicrious to suggest so. Srila Prabhupada never would, never did or never will instruct or suggest such a thing.

So much gets taken out of context. Once Srila Prabhupada told the Bengali joke : "there are three things one can beat ; his mrdunga, his dog and his wife." And His DIiine Grace laughed. Some took this joke as an instruction and we know the results.

hariharibol:...depending on what offense your guru may have
commited,and depending on his asrama, sometimes sucide is
recommended as the appropriate attonement,what did your guru do ?

rasa 108; Can you give a reference for this statement? I doubt
whether Srila Prabhupada would want anyone to commit suicide,
what to speak of a devotee of Krsna....I dont recall reading
or hearing of Srila Prabhupada recommending suicide to any of
his disciples...

response:
CC Antya 2.172
Praying at the lotus feet of Sri Rupa and Sri Raghunatha,
always desiring their mercy, I, Krishnadasa, narrate Sri
Caitanya-caritamrita, following in their footsteps.Instructions
from this ChapterSummarizing this chapter, Srila Bhaktisiddhanta
Sarasvati Thakura says that one should derive from it the following
lessons. (1) Although Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu, the Supreme Personality
of Godhead, is an incarnation of mercy, He nevertheless gave up the
company of one of His personal associates, namely Junior Haridasa, for
if He had not done so, pseudo devotees would have taken advantage of
Junior Haridasas fault by using it as an excuse to live as devotees
and at the same time have illicit sexual connections. Such activities
would have demoralized the cult of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu, and as a
result, devotees would surely have gone to a hellish life in the name
of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu. (2) By chastising Junior Haridasa, the Lord
set the standard for acaryas, or the heads of institutions propagating
the Caitanya cult, and for all actual devotees. Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu
wanted to maintain the highest standard.

<<< >>>
then bpdd posted this:
Here is a site that explains to my personal satisfaction what
transpired with His Holiness Visnujana Swami :

http://members.aol.com/gauridas/vjdis.htm

which incuded these fancifully excerpts:

This is the story of Visnujana Swamis disappearance from this
material world, back to Godhead.

He talked to them at the 1975 San Francisco Rathayatra for about
an hour. Visnujana heard that it was considered a falldown for
him to talk to his ex-wife since he was a sanyasi.

asked him what a sanyasi should do if he falls down. Srila
Prabhupada answered that like Chota Haridas he should commit suicide.

That night Visnujana disappeared. He went to where Chota Haridas,
from Chaitanya lila, committed suicide at Prayag and paid a few sadhus
to help him with the ultimate sacrifice.

<<< >>>
if balserdash like that "explains to my personal satisfaction", what
an easily satisfied individual you are. fact is there is a fellow on
audarya fellowship, using the name ghari, who admits to being vishnujana
but will not say much more than that. you could settle the issue with him.
these kinds of overly glorious ISKCON MYTHS are what caused others to take
their own lives rather than fall down. new vrndaban has at least 3 others
who were all claimed to have been suicides, taru, amburish, and tapoh murti,
and although the authorities are not so sure they were suicides, they were
all dead, as NVs latest eulogy for taru finally admits, be it however
belated.

the vishnujana myth doesnt seem to include any of the pastimes with bhaktin
cookie, which probably has a lot more to do with the falldown inquiries than
any chance meeting with his ex at rathyatra, but then thats how myths get
started, isnt it?

Thank you for reminding me of Chota Haridas and Lord Caitanya !
By the grace of the Lord, Visnujana Swami was the first Sanyasi i ever met and Sri Sri Radha-Damodhara the first Deities (aside from a painting of Pancha-Tattva ) i ever attempted to serve. Attending so many kirtans, so many classes, so many arotikes to Sri Sri Radha-Damodhara, in parks, on the streets ( and in so many cities They traveled! ) I guess that to understand an inkling of the person, the devotee, Visnujana Swami, one " had to be there ." Maybe you were, Janmastami das Prabhu... maybe you were not. I can only know my experience and i am indeed satisfied with the researched account of the events. No matter what is currently the situation with the soul, Visnujana Swami, he will or has Gone Back to Godhead... just as the rest of us will.... at some point... At least remembering His Holiness reminds me of moments of simplicity, in youthful attempts at becoming a devotee. His leaving reminds me of the seriousness. There is much to find fault with, Janmastami das ! There is no doubt of this !
We all have our realizations, experiences, and so on. We all have to leave these bodies, this life. I guess i prefer to be easily satisfied... prefer this to other alternatives. Afterall, it is whatever consciousness of Krsna i can muster up, by the mercy of Srila Prabhupada, when i leave this body that will impact my next body and destination.