Pariprashnena — Q&A Archive

Why dont you ask GBC about it?

ritvik shmitvik... initiation means, that there is volountary acceptance on BOTH sides. you simply can not receive diksa from Prabhupada, just like you can not receive diksa from Narada Muni or Vedavyasa. guru MUST accept a disciple. Bhaktisiddhanta had to go to a great length to secure initiation from Srila Gaurakishora. You CAN NOT just take initiation from someone if they do not physically accept you as their disciple.

The idea of post humous ritvik initiations clearly indicates that people have no clue what initiation (diksa) is. In the entire Vedic literature there is no example of such a thing (posthumous initiation). And those who claim that Prabhupada invented it simply bring disgrace to Srila Prabhupada.

I think if question does not make sense - answer will never make it. BTW there is no need to confuse the question - there is nobody here from GBCs so why ask us, ask GBC.

I took first and second initiation (ritvik) from Srila Prabhupad also can mean:

1)I took first and second initiation (ritvik) from Srila Prabhupad when he was present - bonafide disciple
2) I took first and second initiation (ritvik) from Srila Prabhupad when he left the manifest pastimes - bogus disciple
3)I took first and second initiation (ritvik) from Srila Prabhupad - because GBC told me to - fiction.

ccd prabhu......im a bit confused, so theres no such thing as ritvik at present.....

[quote][cite] Kula-pavana:[/cite]ritvik shmitvik... initiation means, that there is volountary acceptance on BOTH sides. you simply can not receive diksa from Prabhupada, just like you can not receive diksa from Narada Muni or Vedavyasa. guru MUST accept a disciple. Bhaktisiddhanta had to go to a great length to secure initiation from Srila Gaurakishora. You CAN NOT just take initiation from someone if they do not physically accept you as their disciple.

The idea of post humous ritvik initiations clearly indicates that people have no clue what initiation (diksa) is. In the entire Vedic literature there is no example of such a thing (posthumous initiation). And those who claim that Prabhupada invented it simply bring disgrace to Srila Prabhupada.[/quote]

1) Srila Prabhupada formally established ritvik initiations on July 9th 1977. Before then, ritvik initiations were being conducted by Kirtanananda and Revatinandana in 1973. So where is this idea of "pre-samadhi ritvik initiations" mentioned in our Vedic literature? Would Kula-pavana criticise SP for going against the Vedic system by introducing ritvik initiations in the first place?

2) You cant accept initiation from Naradamuni or Vedavyasa because you have to receive diksha from the CURRENT link, which is Srila Prabhupada:

"in order to receive the real message of Srimad-Bhagavatam one should approach the CURRENT link, or spiritual master, in the chain of disciplic succession. After being initiated by the proper spiritual master in that chain of succession, one should engage himself in the discharge of tapasya in the execution of devotional service." (SB 2.9.7. purport).

3) Srila Prabhupada delegated his representatives for accepting disciples for initiation, as he could not and did not meet or examine every one of his disciples for the stipulated 6-12 months (see below):

"In our Krsna consciousness movement, the requirement is that one must be prepared to give up the four pillars of sinful life'97illicit sex, meat-eating, intoxication and gambling. In Western countries especially, WE first observe whether a potential disciple is prepared to follow the regulative principles. Then he is given the name of a Vaisnava servant and initiated to chant the Hare Krsna maha-mantra, at least sixteen rounds daily. In this way the disciple renders devotional service under the guidance of the spiritual master OR HIS REPRESNTATIVE for at least six months to a year." (Cc Madhya 24.330 purport)

1. Yes, pre-samadhi ritvik initiations are not part of our tradition. SP considered them to be necessary inclusion at a particular time, due to rapid expansion of ISKCON and his concentration on writing books. Just like one can eat meat when faced with starvation, the typical system of initiations was changed out of sheer necessity for the duration of the crisis.
2. SP is not a current link - he passed on to Vaikuntha.
3. see point 1. the same situation apply.

kula pavana said:

"You CAN NOT just take initiation from someone if they do not physically accept you as their disciple."

isnt ekalavya, who accepted dhrona unilaterally as his guru, an example of the fantasy of this assertion?

[quote][cite] janmastami das:[/cite]kula pavana said:

"You CAN NOT just take initiation from someone if they do not physically accept you as their disciple."

isnt ekalavya, who accepted dhrona unilaterally as his guru, an example of the fantasy of this assertion?[/quote]

Yes, he is. He was a wild tribesman of low culture, and his punishment by Drona was quite instructive. Drona asked him for his thumb. He complied, and that made him only a good archer, but not an exceptional archer. In the same way you could say that a unilateral acceptance of a guru places a barrier on your further progress.

one thing is to accept Srila Prabhupada as your only guru, a personal, intimate choice that I respect as any other, another is to officially equate them as disciples duly accepted by him (phallacy).

[quote][cite] mishra:[/cite]one thing is to accept Srila Prabhupada as your only guru, a personal, intimate choice that I respect as any other, another is to officially equate them as disciples duly accepted by him (phallacy).[/quote]

That is true. We are all taking siksa from Srila Prabhupada by reading his books and listening to his lectures, but that is not what is implied here, as the subject of the thread is formal and binding initiation (diksa).

> 1. Yes, pre-samadhi ritvik initiations are not part of our tradition. SP considered them to be necessary inclusion at a particular time, due to rapid expansion of ISKCON and his concentration on writing books.

So did Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati. Sri Jatisekhara Das, disciple of Srila Bhaktisiddhanta, recounts his remembrances:

"It was only in 1931 or 1932 that another devotee
bearing the same name, Puri Maharaja, who was
visiting Berhampur, pushed him into taking harernama.
He told him that he should get initiated because he
was from a Vaisnava family, and even though he wasnt
so much inclined he coerced him saying, "Next time I
come Ill bring Sarasvati Thakuras japa-mala for
you." The system they had if Sarasvati Thakura could
not be physically present was that he would chant on
the japa-mala, which would then be sent to the
aspiring devotee, and in this way they would take
harernama from him. When Puri Maharaja was given his
japa-mala in this way his name wasnt changed. His
name was Narasimha at the time so he became Narasimha
Brahmacari." (from the collection of remembrances of
Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati by his disciples, by Bhakti
Vikasa Swami)

So the system of initiation without personal presence
of the guru is not something new. But it was
discontinued after Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvatis
disappearance.

[quote][cite] Kula-pavana:[/cite]1. Yes, pre-samadhi ritvik initiations are not part of our tradition. SP considered them to be necessary inclusion at a particular time, due to rapid expansion of ISKCON and his concentration on writing books. Just like one can eat meat when faced with starvation, the typical system of initiations was changed out of sheer necessity for the duration of the crisis.
2. SP is not a current link - he passed on to Vaikuntha.
3. see point 1. the same situation apply.[/quote]

1. So you are claiming that neither pre-samadhi ritvik nor post-samadhi ritvik are part of our tradition. So you are saying SP is un-Vedic?

2. In the Bhagavad-gita As It Is introduction, SP lists himself as the current link in the list of the Disciplic Succession (no. 32, I think). Who would you suggest appears as no. 33?

3. Since SPs books are meant to last 10,000 years, unless you are daring enough to change SPs words in the Bhagavad-gita and the Cc, then SP remains the current link; and his use of representatives to vet and initiate disciples on his behalf remains.

[quote][cite] VEDA:[/cite]>
So the system of initiation without personal presence
of the guru is not something new. But it was
discontinued after Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvatis
disappearance.[/quote]

Youre joking, arent you?! Srila Prabhupada, who is guru after Srila Bhaktisiddhantas disappearance, initiated thousands of disciples without ever having met them- its called the RITVIK system!

[quote][cite] jay:
1. So you are claiming that neither pre-samadhi ritvik nor post-samadhi ritvik are part of our tradition. So you are saying SP is un-Vedic?

2. In the Bhagavad-gita As It Is introduction, SP lists himself as the current link in the list of the Disciplic Succession (no. 32, I think). Who would you suggest appears as no. 33?

3. Since SPs books are meant to last 10,000 years, unless you are daring enough to change SPs words in the Bhagavad-gita and the Cc, then SP remains the current link; and his use of representatives to vet and initiate disciples on his behalf remains.[/quote]

1. What I am saying is that SP modified the tradition out of NECESSITY alone. Vedas allow non-standard means in times of great need, like eating meat when faced with starvation. Still, we know what the proper STANDARD is: vegetarian diet and initiation from a physically present guru.

2. His disciples are the current link. If one or more of them becomes a real acharya by their qualifications and work, their names will be listed in the future. THERE WERE HUNDREDS IF NOT THOUSANDS OF QUALIFIED VAISHNAVA GURUS IN OUR LINE THAT WERE NOT INCLUDED IN THAT LIST since the time of Lord Brahma.

3. Who made such a prophecy? Based on what I know it is just another ISKCON myth, born of a statement made by one of Srila Prabhupadas admirerers, and now preached like a gospel. And besides, Krsna-dvaipayana Vyasas books are still around today, yet he is NOT the current link. His writings will be around till the end of Kali-yuga, and that is a Vedic prediction. Books do not give you diksa.

Brahma-Gayatri, also known as S'fcrya-Gayatri, is the first Gayatri mantra in the series of mantras chanted by Brahman-initiated devotees.

Srila Prabhup'e4da, following in his spiritual masters footsteps, has also combined the Vedic and pancar'e4trika initiations. All Vaisnavas who take this initiation (mantra-diksa) are duty-bound to chant the G'e4yatri mantras received from the spiritual master thrice daily for the rest of their lives.
- Vedabase, "Preparing for Worship
Abhigamana and Up'e4d'e4na (...)

SISYA Initiation, is the first initiation, harinam (vaishnava) pancar'e4trika initiation Dhiksa, is the second initiation

I take it that the maha mantra is given to ANY new vaishnava disciple by a spiritual master. As far as the present guru goes, Vayu, the wind, delivers up the mantra ("ma"-mind, and "tra" liberation) for deliverance. Doesnt Krsna provide all necessities of life for all living entities, mostly those living beings who are (suras) Vaishnava, and NOT to (a-suras) A-Vaishnava? (...) Hare Krishna

As soon as that G'e4yatr'e9 entered into the ear-holes of Brahm'e4, he became the twice-born and began to chant the G'e4yatr'e9. Whoever has received the same G'e4yatr'e9 in reality, has attained his spiritual rebirth. The status of a twice-born that is obtained in accordance with ones worldly nature and lineage, by the fettered souls in this mundane world, is far inferior to that of the twice-born who obtains admission into the transcendental world; because the initiation or acquisition of transcendental birth as a result of spiritual initiation is the highest of glories in as much as the j'e9va is thereby enabled to attain to the transcendental realm.
~~Vedabase, Sri Brahma-samhit'e4 5.26 (...)

jimycycle: what your two last posts have to do with the question???

> Youre joking, arent you?! Srila Prabhupada, who is guru after Srila Bhaktisiddhantas disappearance, initiated thousands of disciples without ever having met them- its called the RITVIK system!

No, Im serious. BSST never claimed to remain the current link after his disappearance, nor his disciples initiated (as ritviks) anyone as his disciple. This idea was allegedly brought us after his dissapearance, but was immediately rejected as nonsastric.

Re pre samadhi diksas: SP agreed to initiate them and could reject someone he would want to reject. In post samadhi version he is not allowed to do that.

>Re pre samadhi diksas: SP agreed to initiate them and could reject someone he would want to >reject. In post samadhi version he is not allowed to do that.

Consent is one thing. Other thing is daksina, that is one and the main item. It was given by service in his presence by all INITATES, direct or indirect, now the so-called disciples, dont even give service to their guru (as he is gone and can not check them) and use the same for serving some leaders of the splinter groups.

[quote][cite] VEDA:[/cite]> Youre joking, arent you?! Srila Prabhupada, who is guru after Srila Bhaktisiddhantas disappearance, initiated thousands of disciples without ever having met them- its called the RITVIK system!

No, Im serious. BSST never claimed to remain the current link after his disappearance, nor his disciples initiated (as ritviks) anyone as his disciple. This idea was allegedly brought us after his dissapearance, but was immediately rejected as nonsastric.

Re pre samadhi diksas: SP agreed to initiate them and could reject someone he would want to reject. In post samadhi version he is not allowed to do that.[/quote]

Yes, SBST did not claim to be the current link after his disappearance because he authorised Srila Prabhupada to succeed him:

Indian man: When did you become spiritual the leader of Krsna Consciousness?

Srila Prabhupada: What is that?

Brahmananda: He is asking when did you become the spiritual leader of Krsna Consciousness?

Srila Prabhupada: When my Guru Maharaja ordered me. This is the guru parampara.

Indian man: Did it...

Srila Prabhupada: Try to understand. Dont go very speedily. A guru can become guru when he is ordered by his guru. Thats all. Otherwise nobody can become guru.
(SP Bg. Lecture, 28/10/75)

But SP did not authorise anyone to succeed him. He set up a ritvik system, whereby he delegated acceptance of initiates to his ritvik representatives, giving them power of attorney both pre- and post-samadhi:

Prabhupada: So without waiting for me, wherever you consider it is right... That will depend on discretion.

Tamala Krsna: On discretion.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Tamala Krsna: That'92s for first and second initiations.

Prabhupada: Hm.
(Conversation 7/7/77)

[quote][cite] Kula-pavana:
3. Who made such a prophecy? Based on what I know it is just another ISKCON myth, born of a statement made by one of Srila Prabhupadas admirerers, and now preached like a gospel. [/quote]

Are you now saying Srila Prabhupada is a myth-maker?:

"When Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu appeared, He ushered in the era for the sankirtana movement. It is also said that for ten thousand years this era will continue. This means that simply by accepting the sankirtana movement and chanting the Hare Krsna maha-mantra, the fallen souls of this Kali-yuga will be delivered. After the Battle of Kuruksetra, at which Bhagavad-gita was spoken, Kali-yuga continues for 432,000 years, of which only 5,000 years have passed. Thus there is still a balance of 427,000 years to come. Of these 427,000 years, the 10,000 years of the sankirtana movement inaugurated by Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu 500 years ago provide the opportunity for the fallen souls of Kali-yuga to take to the Krsna consciousness movement, chant the Hare Krsna maha-mantra and thus be delivered from the clutches of material existence and return home, back to Godhead."
(SB 8.5.23 purport)

[quote][cite] jay:
SBST did not claim to be the current link after his disappearance because he authorised Srila Prabhupada to succeed him...

(...)

But SP did not authorise anyone to succeed him. [/quote]

And where exactly is the physical proof that SBST ordered Srila Prabhupada to succeed him? The proof is only in SP words. There are no records that prove any such authorization ever took place. We accept that on faith alone. In the same fashion SP disciples may say that SP authorized them to become his successor and their disciples may accept that on faith.

SBST authorized some of his disciples to accept their own disciples even while he was still in this world. And they did initiate their own disciples in his presence, including a first ever Westerner to take initiation in Gaudiya Matha. These are well known facts. Srila Prabhupada was not one of these explicitly authorized disciples. His authorization most likely came after he took sannyasa, through instructions received in a dream.

[quote][cite] jay:[/cite][quote][cite] Kula-pavana:
3. Who made such a prophecy? Based on what I know it is just another ISKCON myth, born of a statement made by one of Srila Prabhupadas admirerers, and now preached like a gospel. [/quote]

Are you now saying Srila Prabhupada is a myth-maker?:
[/quote]

No, some of his disciples are the myth-makers. The quote you posted makes no mention of SP books lasting 10,000 years or him being a current link for that period of time. THAT is the myth. Here is your quote again:

"Since SPs books are meant to last 10,000 years, unless you are daring enough to change SPs words in the Bhagavad-gita and the Cc, then SP remains the current link; and his use of representatives to vet and initiate disciples on his behalf remains."

I think what Jay refers to is when Kali yuga comes to a close, after the "golden era" of KC, there will will not be any krsna bhaktas left, but rather theyll be degraded to same level as meat eater(s). This is what I read in a talk SP had given in 1968 with Allen Ginsburg. Also, when SP first came to Butler, PA, he initiated my friends mother into Brahman and changed her name from one given by guru Muktananda Swami. So, then SP had already been giving initiation(s) on American soil prior to any American Iskcon disciples. This is a "fact" -- not some "fictional myth."
Misra- My point relates is Dhiksha second, not first initiation - and ONLY after brahman Sisya which was later reversed in order to account for a larger scale Iskcon movement. Perhaps the "ritvik" system has the unintended consequence that must now be adhered to after the departure of Srila Prabhupada. But it remains that Indias guru system of sampradaya initiates a devotee into Gayatri, or Brahman FIRST prior to ones taking Hari-nam initiation, or enabling a better guru-disciple relationship to evolve.

[quote][cite] jimmycle:[/cite] Also, when SP first came to Butler, PA, he initiated my friends mother into Brahman and changed her name from one given by guru Muktananda Swami. So, then SP had already been giving initiation(s) on American soil prior to any American Iskcon disciples. This is a "fact" -- not some "fictional myth." [/quote]

Interesting and important information. I did not know that SP initiated someone when he first came to Butler, PA. Is that a verifiable information? What was the name of that lady?

Yes, it is verifiable and her name was Ushalla. Prabhupada gave her personal these instructions: to stay married and fixed in her daily puja to Lord Krsna no matter what her husband did or didnt do in terms of KC. Her new name is Uma and she still lives in PA, but she also travels to NY and NJ temples. Her son and I became close friends and his mother had once insisted that he stay for a weekend in the Mandira in order to see if he would turn out liking devotional life. He is now a grhasta, doctor, and used to tell me that either you become a doctor (as his father is also a doctor), or else you become a bhakta devotee, (he believes that KC literally is meant for everyone), or devotee, are both good. So Prabhupada says, "Dont be surprised at who leaves the movement, yet we should be surprised at who stays." If everyone in the world became a Bhakta - even the Pope (not the lowly bhakta as some in the bhakta program would have you believe, one can reach the highest elevation in the matter of a second) as it is, but simply lives out their life in the mandira, then where would there be enough room in the mandir for newcomers? Hare Krsna

I am meditating on what purpose the GBC would then have. I know how confusing this is to new "bhaktas" when so many are instructing others from "their" vyasasanas, and changing the instructions (vapu) which SP originally spoken in his vani , like this universal philospohy, were not the body (fundamental philosophies available to youth of India - yet its difficult for difficult minded western brain to comprehend. I see the GBC as body of Iskcon which we need, but I question what is the blood? Books? We only need the SB and Gita as our guidance for the next 10,000 years - a "Golden age" or "dvarpa yuga."
Kalau n'e4sty eva n'e4sty eva n'e4sty eva gatir anyath'e4. If we take to Krsna consciousness, then we are not affected by the bad effects of Kali-yuga. That is recommended. Vedabase, Bhagavad-g'e9t'e4 7.1
'97
Sydney, February 16, 1973

[quote][cite] Kula-pavana:[/cite]1. Yes, pre-samadhi ritvik initiations are not part of our tradition. SP considered them to be necessary inclusion at a particular time, due to rapid expansion of ISKCON and his concentration on writing books. Just like one can eat meat when faced with starvation, the typical system of initiations was changed out of sheer necessity for the duration of the crisis.
2. SP is not a current link - he passed on to Vaikuntha.
3. see point 1. the same situation apply.[/quote]

[p]Srila Prabhupada explicitly stated his requirements for accepting disciples and established the rtvik method for having this performed without his active involvement. Indeed there is no such method established by Narada Muni or any other prior acarya to my knowledge; but to claim that the method Srila Prabhupada established is not Vedic is indisputably an offense against Srila Prabhupada.[/p]

[p]The lack of any "moon among the stars" of Srila Prabhupadas disciples quite reasonably justifies his choice not to cancel or terminate his acceptance of disciples via the automatic rtvik method that he ordered, and to not authorize any diksa guru.[/p]

[p]Who thinks it wise to take as ones life and soul the orders of a "guru" who is not a real acarya? It sounds like a prescription for disaster to me, kind of like what ISKCON has been experiencing for the past 30 years. The crisis will be over when a self-effulgent acarya manifests, or when the GBC surrenders to Srila Prabhupadas instructions.[/p]

..." If one accepts Srila Prabhupad as his guru " thats fine, but Prabhupada should accept them, this is much more important, but I undestand your point.All present Iskcon gurus are bogus and should be avoided,better to remain uninitiated and follow the proccess and reamin fixed,Lord Chaitanya will protect without a doubt.

A rather sweeping statement hariharibol....how would you define "bogus guru" in your mind....I know that my spiritual master is bona fide but I am interested to hear how you come to the conclusion that you do.

Kula-pavana said: 2. SP is not a current link - he passed on to Vaikuntha.

This statement is just too much for me. If Srila Prabhupada is not THE current link, then who is? ISKCON rock-star Gurus? You must be joking.... Even GBC recognizes Srila Prabhupada as primary siksa guru for entire ISKCON, forever. Srila Prabhupada is certainly current link for us, and will be for all to come. And regarding your statement, that he passed on to Vaikuntha.... well, where would you get such information from. You have some special astral connections with some semi-transparent beings?

In any case, you present Srila Prabhupada as being something from the past, and thats extremely distasteful to me. Srila Prabhupada will be always present to all sincere seekers, just as he always was, through his books and other siksa sources. All other gurus are there just to connect you to Srila Prabhupada. No other guru can come even close to Srila Prabhupada in availability to disciple and quality of siksa.

Also, we need not forget Srila Prabhupadas explanations of Guru not only as a person, but also as eternal principle of Parampara. We tend to get fixated more on a person, but there is also a bigger picture to be aware of.

Besides, Srila Prabhupada empowered all his disciples to become Gurus, and he never said that only those, who are voted by GBC, can initiate disciples. What to speak of 3 or 5 year suspensions for fallen gurus.... where did Srila Prabhupada ever support idea of a fallen guru? It is all GBC concocted ecclesiastical nonsense, all for the need of their church system. Who says that vaisnava guru needs to be GBC certified? It was never before a requirement to initiate disciples. Was Srila Prabhupada GBC certified? Or any other acarya before him? It is invented non-traditional concoction, that will fall sooner or later. If initiator is Srila Prabhupadas disciple, and is following all that disciple SP is supposed to follow, then he can connect you to Srila Prabhupada just as well as those with GBC branding on their foreheads.

Ritvik may not be traditional, true, and may not be eternal solution, but it was presented to us by Srila Prabhupada himself, and in absence of any other solid guru system, it seems quite fair alternative to GBC voted-in corporate ecclesiastical guru system. At least in balances-out their ecclesiastical authority structure. Sure, one day, when gurus are qualified.... but we are not there yet.

Kula Pavana said:
3. Who made such a prophecy? Based on what I know it is just another ISKCON myth, born of a statement made by one of Srila Prabhupadas admirerers, and now preached like a gospel. And besides, Krsna-dvaipayana Vyasas books are still around today, yet he is NOT the current link. His writings will be around till the end of Kali-yuga, and that is a Vedic prediction. Books do not give you diksa.

Srila Prabhupada is describing present 10.000 years, starting 500 years ago:
================
When Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu appeared, He ushered in the era for the sankirtana movement. It is also said that for ten thousand years this era will continue. This means that simply by accepting the sankirtana movement and chanting the Hare Krsna maha-mantra, the fallen souls of this Kali-yuga will be delivered. After the Battle of Kuruksetra, at which Bhagavad-gita was spoken, Kali-yuga continues for 432,000 years, of which only 5,000 years have passed. Thus there is still a balance of 427,000 years to come. Of these 427,000 years, the 10,000 years of the sankirtana movement inaugurated by Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu 500 years ago provide the opportunity for the fallen souls of Kali-yuga to take to the Krsna consciousness movement, chant the Hare Krsna maha-mantra and thus be delivered from the clutches of material existence and return home, back to Godhead.

>>> Ref. VedaBase => SB 8.5.23
==================
So we are doing, and we are getting response. It is not without response. It will increase. That is also stated, that for ten thousand years Krsna consciousness movement will increase. Yes.

>>> Ref. VedaBase => Room Conversation with Dr. Arnold Toynbee, Famous Historian, at his home or office -- July 22, 1973, London
===================

Besides, you seem to have some misconception regarding the LINK. Diksa is not the link, siksa is the link. Diksa you can get from any vaisnava, but siksa connects you to Parampara and Krsna. It is not the ceremony, but following of instructions. Vaisnava sampradaya is siksa sampradaya - you can check list in BG, and you will see unbroken siksa connection.

Guru means vani and vapuh. In physical absence of guru, vani is more important. There is no difference between (bonafide) gurus, and they are one in their teaching. This is the principle of Guru. Of course, one may present himself as being guru, teach laughing therapies and past life regressions to ISKCON wanabees, and cheat them quite succesfully, but we should be able to recognize such rascal, and avoid him. Either one is guru, or he is not - there is no fallen guru really. Srila Prabhupada taught about this principle of Guru, not only about a physically present person guru.

So forget about diksa as being most important. While important, it is not most important. You get diksa from where you like, or from where is practical to you. What counts is who you follow, and how you follow. If Krsna sees, that you try to follow his dear devotee, then He will help. And having GBC stamp is really of no value on this level - they can stamp all they want, in the end it is not important how they wish to see it, it is how Krsna wishes to see it. And judging from eternal siksa vaisnava sampradaya, Krsna doesnt care about any group of people claiming, that they are the only way, that only they can appoint bonafide gurus, and that it is possible only through them.

Just like you, both Ritvik church and GBC church are fixated on diksa succesion. Maybe thats why they are both off, struggle with their existence, and will be gone eventually. Vaisnava sampradaya was always a siksa sampradaya, and will remain so, even long after GBC rubber-stamping and ritvik rubber-stamping is way back, forgotten through centuries.

Guru-disciple relationship is a personal thing and you cannot really institutionalize it, no matter how good are your intentions.

[quote][cite] hariharibol:[/cite]..." If one accepts Srila Prabhupad as his guru " thats fine, but Prabhupada should accept them, this is much more important, but I undestand your point.All present Iskcon gurus are bogus and should be avoided,better to remain uninitiated and follow the proccess and reamin fixed,Lord Chaitanya will protect without a doubt.[/quote]

Srila Prabhupada automated the process, specifying his standards for accepting disciples, and giving the method by which initiations would take place in his absence. Prior to his mahasamadhi, disciples were connected with him via diksa without asking him, using the process he authorized. He never rescinded that process, nor did he authorize the initiation process that is currently being employed.

[quote][cite] Giri-nayaka das:[/cite]
Besides, Srila Prabhupada empowered all his disciples to become Gurus, and he never said that only those, who are voted by GBC, can initiate disciples. [/quote]

As I understand it, he empowered his disciples to become siksa gurus by instructing them, giving them knowledge and ordering them to share that knowledge with others; however he did not authorize any of his disciples to become diksa gurus. Can anyone give convincing evidence to the contrary?

Apparently Jayapataka Swami, Radha Govinda Swami and Gour Govinda Swami have said that Srila Prabhupada told them to accept disciples. I am not aware of the details.

Can anyone explain why other spiritual masters give diksa initiation? For example Narayana Maharaja, who is a disciple of Srila Prabhupadas godbrother. Why is this ritvik theory only applicable to Srila Prabhupada and his disciples and not others?

[quote][cite] Pandu das:[/cite]As I understand it, he empowered his disciples to become siksa gurus by instructing them, giving them knowledge and ordering them to share that knowledge with others; however he did not authorize any of his disciples to become diksa gurus. Can anyone give convincing evidence to the contrary?[/quote]

Wrong. Here is evidence to contrary, Srila Prabhupadas system for future gurus, system how one becomes guru, their titles and plan that all who pass through this system will be allowed to INITIATE disciples:
==============
Another examination will be held sometimes in 1971 on the four books, Bhagavad-gita, Srimad-Bhagavatam, Teachings of Lord Caitanya, and Nectar of Devotion. One who will pass this examination will be awarded with the title of Bhaktivedanta. I want that all of my spiritual sons and daughters will inherit this title of Bhaktivedanta, so that the family transcendental diploma will continue through the generations. Those possessing the title of Bhaktivedanta will be allowed to initiate disciples. Maybe by 1975, all of my disciples will be allowed to initiate and increase the numbers of the generations. That is my program.

>>> Ref. VedaBase => Letter to: Hamsaduta -- Los Angeles 3 January, 1969 [Based on the 1st paragraph, we believe that the original letter was incorrectly dated. Our estimate is that this is the correct date. -- Bhaktivedanta Archives]
=============

He actually empowered ALL his disciples, and all to come, to be diksa gurus, and continue traditional guru-disciple system. Diksa is important, and must go on, because without diksa how can there be siksa. But knowledge descends through siksa, not diksa. So siksa is even more important. You can take diksa from any vaisnava, doesnt matter. It is siksa that matters.

Diksa guru can be only one. And he can also be the only siksa guru to disciple, although usually this is not the case, as vaisnavas usually have several siksa gurus. Sure, this tradition is not followed in ISKCON, diksa guru is promoted as your all in all, and every disciple is brainwashed to believe, that his diksa guru is "bonafide".

Above Srila Prabhupadas instruction for gurus, among others, was never followed. Instead GBC took it over, and started rubber stamping their own "cardinals on duty". Of course, GBC stepped in right after the fiasco of eleven self appointed mahabhagavata acaryas, to clean up the mess, but theirs is actually where mess really started.

Srila Prabhupada intended for brahminically minded, studious gurus. GBC instead pushed forward those, who were good at making show and attracting masses. Instead of peaceful brahminical gurus, we got passionate workaholic superstar gurus. Instead of peaceful and sober individuals, we got religious corporate establishment, a church. And instead of increase, there is decay only - just as it has to be for us blockheads to learn.

Srila Prabhupada wanted title Bhaktivedanta to be inherited by all future Gurus, sons and DAUGHTERS, and he wanted it to continue for initiators through generations. Instead GBC invented all other Pada/deva/goswami.... titles, breaking any connection with Bhaktivedanta legacy.

Srila Prabhupada had a program. Regarding gurus and regarding management. For GBC he formed a perfect system with Direction of Management, DOM. Some individuals acted against this program, and created their own charade. Now they are known by the name of ISKCON GBC Society of West Bengal (see their official title on their resolutions), and they are whimsically establishing ecclesiastical system of authority within ISKCON, although Srila Prabhupada said that he didnt want any fancy management. Their system is faulty, and every new permutation of their mistake is getting weaker and weaker. And clearly, their system is collapsing even in their presence, and when they will pass on, their system will be erased and forgotten for good.

Srila Prabhupada had a system, and until his system is established and followed, GBC ISKCON structure will collapse. Try to save it, try to protect it....hopeless, it is dead already, and it smells pretty bad already too. And it will only get worse, until it decomposes, or is cleaned off.

[quote][cite] hariharibol:[/cite]...All present Iskcon gurus are bogus and should be avoided..[/quote]

And how did you arrive at that conclusion, dear prabhu? You have met all of them and carefully examined their qualifications? Or you just accept the ritvik-babble as gospel?

[quote][cite] rasa108:[/cite]Can anyone explain why other spiritual masters give diksa initiation? For example Narayana Maharaja, who is a disciple of Srila Prabhupadas godbrother....why is this theory only applicable to Srila Prabhupada and his disciples and not others?[/quote]

Because this is the way of the Vedic tradition. When a guru passes on, any of his disciples who feel qualified and authorized to give diksa do so if there are people interested to become their disciples.

[quote][cite] Giri-nayaka das:[/cite]Kula-pavana said: 2. SP is not a current link - he passed on to Vaikuntha.

This statement is just too much for me. If Srila Prabhupada is not THE current link, then who is? ISKCON rock-star Gurus? You must be joking.... Even GBC recognizes Srila Prabhupada as primary siksa guru for entire ISKCON, forever. Srila Prabhupada is certainly current link for us, and will be for all to come. And regarding your statement, that he passed on to Vaikuntha.... well, where would you get such information from. You have some special astral connections with some semi-transparent beings?

In any case, you present Srila Prabhupada as being something from the past, and thats extremely distasteful to me. Srila Prabhupada will be always present to all sincere seekers, just as he always was, through his books and other siksa sources. All other gurus are there just to connect you to Srila Prabhupada. No other guru can come even close to Srila Prabhupada in availability to disciple and quality of siksa.
[/quote]

Who is the current link? To disciples of a particular guru it is his guru. For you - if you are an actual disciple of SP - it is Srila Prabhupada. Do you think SP was the only disciple of BST who was a link to the GV sampradaya in modern times? That is a complete bunk. BST personally authorized 2 of his sannyasi disciples to take on disciples even in BST presence, let alone after his passing: Bon Maharaja and Bhakti Saranga Maharaja. Prabhupada took sannyasa from his Godbrother Kesava Maharaja - was Kesava Maharaja not a valid link of our sampradaya? He had several thousand disciples.

Srila Prabhupada is both past and present, but for most (if not all) new devotees he is just the past. I believe he passed on to Vaikuntha because some very enlightened Vaishnavas said so.

Dear Giri-nayaka prabhu,
Hare Krishna. PAMHO. AGTSP. Thats an interesting reference, and it gives me pause. However, its a pretty early reference, so I wonder if Srila Prabhupada ever followed up with it. Did he actually hold those examinations and award the title of Bhaktivedanta to disciples as a result? I never heard of him doing such a thing; and if he did not, then it would appear to me that he changed his mind at some point.

Ideally speaking, "diksa guru can be only one," as you say. However, in practice we see that some devotees have one diksa guru, and other devotees have another. Sometimes they disagree with each other about important points. Also Ive observed that diksa isnt merely a ceremony; it establishes a relationship where the disciple worships the guru, and the guru gives orders that the disciples take as if theyre coming from Krishna.

For example, as a member of the Gita-nagari community, Ive seen that althogh Srila Prabhupada established Gita-nagari, it is run according to Bhakti-Tirtha Swamis orders and for his glorification. Thus, for example, instead of spending money to pay debts to local businesses, which would give us a little respect in the community that would enable us to preach, we have a new, big samadhi building that BTS wanted for himself right beside the temple, but absolutely no local preaching. Book distribution, for his disciples, mostly means distributing BTS books, mostly to established devotees. Control of temple management is dominated by BTS disciples. His disciples consider me their friend as long as I surrender to BTS authority, but not their godbrother; for that, I would have had to take initiation from BTS. Once in a meeting with two BTS disciples in leadership positions, I said that this method will lead to disunity in ISKCON, where Srila Prabhupadas teachings will gradually fade from importance; and in response I was told that is the way it is supposed to be. Apparently that is what BTS taught.

Now we have a situation where there is a great deal of discord due to various political desires, and at a recent community meeting our GBC Ravindra Swarupa prabhu stated that our new bylaws were put in place to protect ISKCON temples from "enemies of ISKCON," whom he named as the "rtviks and followers of Narayana Maharaj." (Apparently this is the GBCs plan for keeping unity in ISKCON, by "religious nationalism," designating various enemies and defending our temples against them.) I was disturbed by the remark, which he made twice, and so I looked into it a little. I have not made an extensive study of the arguments promoted by the rtvik proponents, but from what Ive seen their reasoning seems very good. Ive also been reliably informed that a group of Narayana Maharaj followers are major donors to Gita-nagari. Considering that Gita-nagari seems to rely entirely on donor contributions, I wonder what will happen when these devotees find out that the GBC considers them "enemies."

Returning to your comment, youre making the point that Srila Prabhupadas leading disciples were interested in doing their own thing and not properly following Srila Prabhupada, and I presume he noticed this himself. This would explain why, although he would have liked to have had disciples qualified as diksa guru, he did not actually authorize anyone to become take that post. Instead, he created a system of automatic acceptance of disciples by him based upon established criteria for qualifying disciples. It seems to me that this system would work quite well if it was implemented.

[quote][cite] Pandu das:[/cite]...Srila Prabhupadas leading disciples were interested in doing their own thing and not properly following Srila Prabhupada, and I presume he noticed this himself. This would explain why, although he would have liked to have had disciples qualified as diksa guru, he did not actually authorize anyone to become take that post. Instead, he created a system of automatic acceptance of disciples by him based upon established criteria for qualifying disciples. It seems to me that this system would work quite well if it was implemented.[/quote]

There is not a single shastric example of a guru accepting disciples after his departure from this world. Srila Prabhupada makes no mention of contemplating any such system anywhere in his writings. No sadhus in our sampradaya ever spoke of such a system. Thus based on guru, sadhu, and shastra, such a system is unauthorized.

And anybody who thinks that being labelled ritvik guru as opposed to regular guru would have prevented the abuses of power by people such as Kirtanananda, Bhavananda, or Hansadutta, simply does not know the human nature and individuals in question. These people abused their power even when SP was still here.

[quote][cite] Kula-pavana:[/cite]Who is the current link? To disciples of a particular guru it is his guru. For you - if you are an actual disciple of SP - it is Srila Prabhupada. Do you think SP was the only disciple of BST who was a link to the GV sampradaya in modern times? That is a complete bunk. BST personally authorized 2 of his sannyasi disciples to take on disciples even in BST presence, let alone after his passing: Bon Maharaja and Bhakti Saranga Maharaja. Prabhupada took sannyasa from his Godbrother Kesava Maharaja - was Kesava Maharaja not a valid link of our sampradaya? He had several thousand disciples.

Srila Prabhupada is both past and present, but for most (if not all) new devotees he is just the past. I believe he passed on to Vaikuntha because some very enlightened Vaishnavas said so.[/quote]

Kula-pavana, my point is, that there is a bit more to CURRENT LINK then one person. And especially, if this "one single person" position is enforced upon us by GBC institutional guru system. Even if one got diksa from specific guru, it doesnt mean that this guru is his only link to Sampradaya. Actually, diksa guru needs not be even a prominent link to sampradaya. Link means siksa. And Srila Prabhupada is prominent siksa guru for all ISKCON devotees. Your problem is, that you try to limit CURRENT LINK to one person alone, namely diksa guru. This is wrong understanding. Siksa connection is actual connection. For ISKCON devotees this will always be Srila Prabhupada.

----------------

Otherwise, it is good that you clarified your personal beliefs regarding Srila Prabhupada being past and present, and then past again, and then passed on to Vaikuntha. It is very clear. Nice.

Pandu Prabhu. Pamho. AgtSP.
There is an offensive theory regarding early references, that Srila Prabhupada didnt really know what he wanted when he came to the west, that he was also maybe a bit confused, and that he improvised as he went on. Even GBCs like to rely on this theory, especialy I heard Ravindra Swarupa dasa spreading such nonsense, to undermine Srila Prabhupadas instructions, and even legal documents.

I find such propositions distasteful, and prefer to see things differently. Im faithful, that Srila Prabhupada knew exactly what is to be done, and he gave his clear vision from very beginning. Instead of thinking of Srila Prabhupada as fallible person, who was inventing through experience, I rather believe, that his followers, although sincere, were not able to manifest Srila Prabhupadas vision. Therefore Srila Prabhupada molded his expectations according to abilities of his followers. So his original idea remains valid, waiting for qualified people to implement it. (Same stands for Direction of Management, DOM.)

My point is, that later Srila Prabhupadas instructions do not negate older ones. They just show how broad Srila Prabhupadas vision was, and how it was not within the ability of the first followers to fulfill entire plan.

Srila Prabhupada was not the one to hold examinations. He created system, but it was not followed, so he let it aside. Now, if his idea was bad, and GBC figured it out better later, then we wouldnt have these discussions nowadays, is it? So, since GBCs ideas suck big time, no wonder devotees start to ask themselves if GBC actually did what Srila Prabhupada wanted. And such questions result in interesting answers.

Otherwise, things you are describing regarding your saintly local GBC, are real fun. I had some encounters with RSD some years ago, and at that time I was clearly in his "black book of ISKCON enemies, the envious fault-finder ones". Maybe Im still in there.... He is funny with his fanaticism, and loyalty to his institutional masters. So educated, but so limited in vision. Well, whatever, we all get what we need....

Probably we will never know why Srila Prabhupada never appointed any successors. We have ocean of his guidance how one can recognize bonafide guru, and how to serve him. Those who study this standard a bit, get a bit picky with what GBC has to offer nowadays. Im not saying that ritvik is better alternative. As I see it, we folowers are also not very qualified. If one is useless like myself, why would I need some super guru? For my needs, even the most spaced-out ISKCON or ritvik or gaudiya-math or any other guru is overkill.

When one becomes qualified as disciple, Krsna provides qualified guru. We get exactly what we need at this moment. No need to complain really. But at the same time, we should be looking towards better tomorrow, with enthusiasm.

Dear Giri-nayaka prabhu,

Hare Krishna. I agree that Srila Prabhupada made no mistake. Im saying that it appears that he changed his mind, as any person may do. Every living entity has free will to some degree, and thus specific details of the future are not entirely predictable. Srila Prabhupada once predicted an imminent World War III, and when it didnt happen, someone asked him about it. According to RSDs blog, "He responded: Krishna had changed His mind." Therefore we can understand that even though Srila Prabhupada can predict the future, as informed by Krishna, things can still change. I find it notable that as Srila Prabhupada was winding up his pastimes here prior to his mahasamadhi, he made no reference to his earlier plan that you mentioned. Instead he finalized the institution of a process whereby he would continue to accept disciples via rtvik representatives.

That he intended to continue to accept disciples indefinitely is proven in his Declaration of Will, '93...a successor director or directors may be appointed by the remaining directors, provided the new director is my initiated
disciple...'94 (Srila Prabhupada'92s Declaration of Will, June 4th, 1977) He did not say "a member of ISKCON in good standing," or "is an initiated discple following in my line," or any similar statement. He said, "my initiated discple." He, of course, knew what he was writing and made no mistake. Unless he was planning to lose his properties in India, or have them go unmanaged after the eventual departure of his initiated disciples, then it should be clear that that he intended the system of automatic rtvik initiations he implemented shortly before his mahasamadhi, with no sunset clause, to continue indefinitely. Otherwise that portion of Srila Prabhupadas Will makes no sense.

In answer to why one needs a super guru, it is because an imperfect disciple surrendered to an imperfect guru makes a potentially disasterous combination, carrying out the gurus orders for his sense gratification rather than for Krishnas pleasure. The gurus material desires, such as for personal fame (i.e. requesting a fancy samadhi memorial), are likely to be taken as pure and absolute. I dont know about you, but I do not want to surrender to anyone who is still struggling with the material modes of nature. It seems to me that the strong desire to have a guru who is 100% dedicated to Krishnas pleasure is a positive step in devotional service.

[quote][cite] Giri-nayaka das:[/cite]..my point is, that there is a bit more to CURRENT LINK then one person. And especially, if this "one single person" position is enforced upon us by GBC institutional guru system. Even if one got diksa from specific guru, it doesnt mean that this guru is his only link to Sampradaya. Actually, diksa guru needs not be even a prominent link to sampradaya. Link means siksa. And Srila Prabhupada is prominent siksa guru for all ISKCON devotees. Your problem is, that you try to limit CURRENT LINK to one person alone, namely diksa guru. This is wrong understanding. Siksa connection is actual connection. For ISKCON devotees this will always be Srila Prabhupada.
[/quote]

Just think about a link and a chain in the physical sense. The link is connecting you (one link) to the sampradaya (rest of the chain) and ultimately Krishna through a particular person (connecting or uniting link). Usually that link means mantra diksa guru, because the mantra is Krsna in the form and taste carried by the particular sampradaya. Because diksa is only one, the link is only one. Mantra is extremely important here.

BST developed a very unique way of looking at the sampradaya - with connection passed primarily through siksa, at least starting with Jagannatha das Babaji - previous links in the sampradaya he outlined are more or less going along the straight diksa lines. I believe that altough there is some validity to this thinking, the main reason was to avoid the issue of Bhaktivinodas diksa connection through the Vipin Bihari line. When Prabhupada was speaking about his initiated disciples being the next link he meant his diksa disciples, and only his diksa disciples.

[quote][cite] Pandu das:[/cite]
That he intended to continue to accept disciples indefinitely is proven in his Declaration of Will, '93...a successor director or directors may be appointed by the remaining directors, provided the new director is my initiated
disciple...'94 (Srila Prabhupada'92s Declaration of Will, June 4th, 1977) He did not say "a member of ISKCON in good standing," or "is an initiated discple following in my line," or any similar statement. He said, "my initiated discple." He, of course, knew what he was writing and made no mistake. Unless he was planning to lose his properties in India, or have them go unmanaged after the eventual departure of his initiated disciples, then it should be clear that that he intended the system of automatic rtvik initiations he implemented shortly before his mahasamadhi, with no sunset clause, to continue indefinitely. Otherwise that portion of Srila Prabhupadas Will makes no sense.
[/quote]

I do not think you understand the way a Will document works in the legal sense. When you write a Will, you are passing ownership of your assets to a designated party and that legal arrangement is only valid as long as the designated party is alive, not for all eternity. It is the Will of my son which will decide how are the assets he received from me (in my Will) to be managed. That is how SPs Will is drawn.

Dear Pandu Prabhu,

Regarding Srila Prabhupadas early instructions... I understand your points, but will maintain my view, as I personally feel safer with it. Coming to the west and setting guru system is another thing than predicting WW3. Instructions and predictions are two different things..... Krsna can change his mind regarding WW3, but revealing the implementation of eternal guru system for the next 10.000 years is another category. (maybe to RSD it is the same thing, but to me it is not even remotely connected). As I said, for me apparent development of Srila Prabhupadas views doesnt connect to evolution of his experiences in the west, but to his merciful nature and greatness, through which he was able to reach out and engage in pure devotional service even those, who were totally unqualified (and quite possibly still are).

I understand your points that Srila Prabhupada wanted ritvik system. I follow this ritvik issue carefully since quite some time, and as I said, I see ritvik system as fine alternative to GBC invented institutional guru system. I have no feelings of enmity towards ritvik branch of ISKCON. Whoever is fixed on pleasing Srila Prabhupada, that is ISKCON devotee. Fighting for houses is a disgrace to eternal vaisnava sampradaya. And criticizing one, just because some confused GBC sees him as enemy..., thats peak of stupidity for me. To me ritviks are just as much members of ISKCON as GBCs. I see that their historical part in social development of ISKCON is extremely important, as they are the only ones to balance-out the GBCs guru nonsense. Unity of ritviks and GBCs forms a promising ground for future guru-disciple systems in ISKCON. Of course, before that happens, many, on both sides, will have to deal with their overly expanded false egos.

In the end, I strongly feel, that relationship between guru and disciple cannot be legislated and institutionalized. In is deep internal path, and although absolute, it projects itself relatively according to advancement of each guru and disciple. Each person has his own needs, and Krsna provides what is lacking, and protects what is achieved. What can repression accomplish in this area? As they say, you can lead the horse to water, but you cannot force him to drink.

We get all kinds of good guidance from all devotees, but in the end we need to make decision. And due to our conditioning, it will quite possibly be a decision, that will eventually be proven as wrong, or at best not the optimal one. So we learn, step by step, choice by choice. Is there a better way? Yes, to hear and act. Will we take that way, always? Probably not.

I learn to respect all devotees for their endeavour, and this is struggle enough in itself. I really dont need no institutional-authorities-on-steroids telling me what to think and what to feel, picking my friends and my enemies for me.

Concluding words from CC; "One must take advantage of the Vani, not the Vaphu". Also: " He reasons ill who tells that Vaisnavas die, when thou art living still in sound! The Vaisnava dies to live, and living try to spread the Holy Name around!" Bhaktivinoda Thakura

...I was initiated by Isckon guru in 1982, I have since rejected Him when I notice His true narcistic nature and need to be always pamperd and to be the center of attention,He also refuses to take any responsibilty for His GBC zone where I live,He simply enjoys the attention of the nieve Indian congregation.
...any GBC rubber-stamped guru is bogus,let them go to a counrty with out any support,sit under a tree in a puplic place and lets see how much a potency they have.

[quote][cite] Pandu das:[/cite]
In any case I want to find out if there is any clear proof of Srila Prabhupada having authorized the termination of the rtvik system he created, as well as the authorization of the method that is being utilized today. Its just not plausible to say that he left it up to the GBC to handle initiations as they like. If Srila Prabhupada didnt authorize any successor gurus, then in my mind it brings into question the bona fides of the initiations. I almost wonder if I should get a rtvik initiation just to have my bases covered, considering that a whichever is not bona fide is simply meaningless, though it would have to be done in secret because the GBC is so adamantly against it. However, Im not very good at concealing my thoughts, which I guess may be obvious.

It would be quite astonishing if weve been depositing our mail in mailboxes that have not been authorized by the government, so to speak, but on the other hand it could explain why ISKCON went from an exploding spiritual movement to a virtually insignificant religious cult. [/quote]

1. Termination of the ritvik system SP created during his presence:

Regardless of what you think about the appointment tapes - in his books SP never mentions even the ritvik system he created, let alone any revolutionary system he supposedly planned to use after his passing. One can therefore assume that he had no intention of changing the system used in all Vaishnava sampradayas for thousands of years. Quite frankly such a change could possibly turn our line into an apasampradaya. An acharya simply cant nominate himself to be the diksa guru for all future generations in his line.

2. The current GBC approval of gurus in ISKCON:

Srila Prabhupada envisioned his disciples qualifying to be gurus by passing advanced shastric examinations even in SPs presence. He expected it to happen in just a few short years. For one reason or another he never implemented that system. Yet he set a precedent for accepting someone as guru based on a somewhat arbitrary criteria. Does book knowledge alone qualify anyone to be a guru? I doubt that very much. The current GBC system is very similar in the sense of setting arbitrary criteria for the guru candidates. I dont think we can reject their system because it closely resembles in essence the system SP envisioned earlier.

3. Placing your mail in an authorized mailbox:

Ultimately the authorization comes from Krsna. If you have verified that to the best of your knowledge your guru properly represents the authorized sampradaya of your choice - the rest is up to Krsna. Have faith in Him and you will be fine regardles of the quality of your guru. That is my very direct personal experience.

Prabhupada never emphasized diksa, He emphasized siksa, vani, specifically when this vani is non-different from Gauravani. He even considered his own disciples to be representatives of his own spritiual master, and helping to carry out his order ie vani.

Why we are so hung up on diksa matters remains a mystery to me. Diksa is just part of the process, not the issue and is done in accordance with vani, not that philosophy should change following the change in the process of diksa.

CCD, My reason is that because the diksa guru is worshipped as Krishnas pure representative, and his instructions and orders are taken as equal to Krishnas own words. Therefore if the diksa guru is materially contaminated, his ego gets puffed up and his instructions are mixed with material motivations. As a consequence, his disciples get mislead.

Three years ago I questioned BTS moral integrity regarding his lavish glorification of an unrepentant child molester whom hed invited to Gita-nagari, contrary to the fellows official rectification plan (which had never been taken seriously), just after wed auctioned off our farm equipment to raise $35,000 to pay to the child abuse settlement. Instead of getting a plausible, spiritually uplifting response, I was threatened, condemned, and ostracized for my "guru aparadha." I had simply asked a question, hoping for a good answer, all in the interst of protecting Gita-nagaris children and Srila Prabhupadas good name..

The only reason Im emphasizing the qualifications of the diksa guru is because they are treated as Krishnas voice in our society, although their conduct frequently seems less than Divine to me. If everyone emphasized Srila Prabhupadas siksa, that would be great. Instead there is a huge emphasis on the diksa gurus instructions and orders, which is precisely the cause of the problems Ive experienced. I have seen and heard of an astonishing amount of heinous activity based on worshipping materially contaminated gurus, a lot more than just the murder of Sulocana.

I agree that according to the pure philosophy siksa is much more important; but what do you think would happen if would go around insisting that I was Srila Prabhupadas disciple? Im not sure I would still be allowed to give class, or even visit the temple, what to speak of sitting at the "Srila Prabhupadas Disciples Table" at festivals.

A jealous person in the dress of a vaisnava is not at all happy to see the success of another vaisnava receiving the Lords mercy. Unfortunately in this age of Kali-Yuga there are many mundane persons in the dress of vaisnavas and Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakur has described them as disciples of Kali. He says Kali-cela, he indicates that there is another vaisnava, a pseudo-vaisnava with Tilaka on his nose and Kunti beads around his neck. Such a pseudo-vaisnava associates with money and women and is jealous of successful vaisnavas. Although passing for a vaisnava, his only business is earning money in the dress of a vaisnava. Bhaktivinoda Thakur therefore says that such a pseudo-vaisnava is not a vaisnava at all, but a disciple of Kali-Yuga. A disciple of Kali cannot become an acarya by the decision of some high-court judgement. Mundane votes have no jurisdiction to elect a vaisnava acarya. A vaisnava-acarya is self effulgent, and there is no need for any court judgement. A false acarya may try to override a vaisnava by a high-court decision, but Bhaktivinoda Thakur says that he is nothing but a disciple of Kali-Yuga. CC. Madya-Lila, Ch. 1, 218-219

Pandu Prabhu,
You already have diksa guru. Why complicate your life by risking the aparadha of rejecting guru thats just fine, and accepting another? Diksa here or there will change nothing. Many took diksa from Srila Prabhupada.... It is not like, BANG, diksa, now Im good. Even if you got diksa from occasionally weak and confused vaisnava, if he is turned towards Krsna in his desire, you are just fine. It is pure siksa, that we need, and that we have sooooo much nowadays. Never was there so much quality siksa available so widely, so easily. Even if all GBC gurus bloop, and all ritviks bloop, and all gaudiya math and others bloop.... whatever, we fire up our mp3 player with thousands od Srila Prabhupadas lectures, and we are exactly where we need to be.

Present gurus (GBCs, ritviks, gaudiya math...) are bonafide enough for where we are atm, dont worry. As long as they direct us towards sampradaya, they are doing their job. Rejection can be done, but only after carefull consideration, if guru becomes mayavadi or inimical towards devotees (not towards individuals, but in principle). But none of above mentioned are mayavadis or inimical towards pure devotional service. Feelings of enmity are created artificially by weak individuals like RSD and similar brand. We need not fall for that maya tricks. Bypass their conditioned opinions, and dive into the nectar flowing from Srila Prabhupadas lips. Dont worry too much, you will be just fine at Srila Prabhupadas feet, Krsna will take care.

There is plenty of fanaticism in ISKCON regarding gurus. Even if some individuals take words of certain guru to be equal to Krsnas, you need not follow their ways. Maybe they need to see this certain person as Divine, maybe thats their next step towards Krsna. If you already see that something may be wrong with divinity of that guru, why bother with that? ISKCON societly treats gurus as divine, because societies need heroes. Somebody must be a role model, and if there is no qualified person for that, someone lesser is installed on throne, and worshiped - and simultaneously in background rules are set for him to suspend him, when he fails in his role as divine. It is nothing new, all societies, not only religious, follow such system.

You can be Prabhupadas disciple, but not diksa disciple. So you cannot sit at SP Diksa table, thats temporary arrangement for closed circle only. But you can work hard to come up to SP standard for his disciples. And Krsna will take care of you for your trying to follow Srila Prabhupada. It is internal thing. Dont get too conditioned by external designations of society, friendship and love. Krsna is not present only where GBC approved gurus are - at least sastra says that Krsna is where His Name is sung in association of devotees, and there is no mention of GBC in that sloka. Some people have misconceptions, that you need not accept as your own. Let them work on their own misconceptions, and let them learn what they need to learn. We can cooperate just fine, even if one thinks that his diksa guru is divine or whatever. With some respect for each other, and meditating on unity in diversity, we can cooperate just fine to spread the mission of Caitanya Mahaprabhu.

Priyavrata prabhu,
Hare Krishna. PAMHO. AGTSP. It seems that perhaps Im being called envious here; and I dont deny that I have many, many faults. If you mean to say that Im a Kali-cela, feel free to explicitly say so. However, my concern is not that unauthorized gurus are getting worship that they dont deserve, but that the world, including myself, isnt getting the mercy we desperately need, real Krishna consciousness. I was once told that an unrepentant child molester getting lavishly glorified was the gurus mercy, but I saw it as simply inflating his false ego and distracting him with sense gratification, the opposite of mercy. Was I wrong about that?

Giri-nayaka prabhu,
I hear what youre saying, but I feel like Draupadi waking up in Karnas bed; or a prude somehow at a 70s pill party. "Go with the flow, man. Drink the Kool-Aid; its great!" I like my guru and admire him as a devotee, but I cant seem to cultivate feelings for him anything like what I have for Srila Prabhupada.

Pandu Prabhu, I didnt think Srila Prabhupadas quote sent by Priyavrata was aiming at you in any way. I gave it thumbs-up considering it to be aimed at the certain guru system that so many have problem with.

And regarding your observation: "I like my guru and admire him as a devotee, but I cant seem to cultivate feelings for him anything like what I have for Srila Prabhupada." :) This is exactly how I feel about my guru, but I think this is perfectly proper. Why do you think anything is wrong with your described emotions??? Why are you so screwed up, that you think your institutional guru should be the topmost in your life, from now on, forever...whatever. Cmon, no need to punish yourself. You are doing just fine.

By your having stronger feelings towards SP, your guru should not be disturbed. He should be happy, and I bet he is. If he is a possessive idiot, and demands your full love or whatever, then something may be screwed up in his head. But I doubt that is really the case, at least not to much. Pandu, with all due respect, you are just a bit screwed up. :) And I can relate to that, because Im too, I guess.

We were not trained properly in our devotion to guru, and no wonder, we came up in association of neophytes. None to blame really, but our own baby-ness (is that a word at all???). We got exactly what we needed. Time will fix it all. Be happy for your guru connecting you to Srila Prabhupada, and go on fixing yourself fully on Srila Prabhupada siksa. Thus you will glorify also your present diksa guru.

Forget about moving to ritvik camp, it will solve nothing for you. Ritviks can be good for newcomers, those seeking initiation and connection to Srila Prabhupada, as alternative to GBC confusion. But you already have your connection, so why bother with all the mess?

Pandu das: Obeisance at your feet. All glories to Prabhupada. My last statement from Bhaktivinoda Thakur was not directed at you personally. I was simply making a comment on the topic of discussion. Thats all. I never said that you or anyone else in particular is Kali-cela. If I had something to say to you, I would certainly articulate it. I dont pull punches, nor do I sugar coat anything especially regarding spiritual matters. In reference to your last statement to me regarding the unrepentant child molester in my opinion is absolutely correct. Whomever told you that those actions are the gurus mercy is without question insane.
Question for you Pandu prabhu; what do you mean by sitting at the same table as "Prabhupadas disciples? Do you not all sit together? What is this nonsense? Please enlighten me.

Initiation in prabhupadas times was quite natural and is not something special, if you managed to stay in the temple for a few months you will get it. Prabhupada never made a big thing out of it. Why do we make such a big deal out of initiating gurus? We should make big deal out of siksa gurus! They are people who save us, and Prabhupada is our siksa guru for sure; making him some kind of forever diksa guru is a stupid idea, based on the strange concept that diksa guru is more important.

Dear Priyavrata Prabhu, Hare Krishna. Thank you for the clarification. Ive just been going through some stuff lately; as Im sure is a little obvious. I even got a speeding ticket this morning, although I was over the speed limit for just half-a-minute and didnt even realize it. I try to see it as Krishnas mercy, but its a little difficult sometimes.

What I mentioned was that for festivals at Gita-nagari there always a designated "Prabhupadas disciples" table, exclusively for them. My point was simply that if were supposed to be mainly a siksa sampradaya, then why is this distinction emphasized? At least here, there are sometimes substantial distinctions according to ones diksa guru. The table thing is just one example, and not a very important one.

It seems to me that although we all have Srila Prabhupadas teachings in common, the next step down the line there are instructions by the various diksa gurus, whose disciples take them like Divine orders. For those who are not the successors disciples, that gurus instructions dont matter so much, except that they play in the political arena. For example, BTS wanted a large, ornate puspa samadhi right next to the temple (maybe 15 meters away?). One disciple of Srila Prabhupada suggested that maybe that wasnt an appropriate location, and his disciples responded so angrily that she moved away for a few years, although shed been living here for a long time prior. (At least Im told thats why she moved; at the time I had been so hurt by their response to my questioning about the child molester glorification that I quit the whole Hare Krishna movement for two years.) Personally, I dont know why the samadhi was even necessary. I thought if his disciples had such good fund-raising power, they shouldve put that toward the temples debts to local businesses so that we would have some credibility for preaching and some money left over to actually get a public book distribution program going. (Its also notable that, for them, book distribution mostly means distributing BTS books.) By my understanding that wouldve been greater glorification of their guru. Of course, dont tell them that, or Ill be in trouble!

I dont mean to seem negative; these devotees are my friends, and theyve been good to me and my family in many ways, but I still have issues that I often feel concerned about. I havent been able to talk with them about these things, but it helps to talk with someone. Hare Krishna.

Pandu das: If you need someone to talk to regarding your spiritual life. Im a good listener and would be more than happy to hear what you have to say about the many issues that dont seem to sit well with you. However, I would rather do so in a more private setting as opposed to this forum. If youre inclined to do so, you can obtain my personal e-mail address from admin. All glories to Srila Prabhupada.Your servant, Priyavrata das

..there are only a few Prabhupada disciples remaining,so during festivals they like to associate with each other, there is nothing wrong with that of course,but they should mingle with the rest of the devotees and preach,if they want to have a private gathering somewhere else that would be ok.
BTSs request for a ornate puspa samadhi should not be allowed,was He really that special ?

Dear Priyavrata Prabhu,
Hare Krishna. You must be very brave. 8^) Yes, I appreciate your offer. Really the only problems are my addiction to sense gratification, my aversion to devotional service, and my persistent tendency to commit offenses. However, on account of these three faults of mine, I find practically unlimited faults everywhere. If somehow I could find he heart of these faults of mine and rectify it, I am hopeful that the world could be relieved of the great burden of my sinful nature.

Please send me a note at:
Pandu.bms at Gmail.com
so we can discuss in a way that I will not be a disturbance to everyone. I am also open to communicating more privately with other devotees as well. Thank you. Hare Krishna.

Sincerely, your servant,
Pandu das

Unfortunately there exists in the vedic literature no evidence of an ritvik archarya,my guru tamala krishna goswami signed the letter which the apa-sampradaya ritvik group propounds is their proof of a sanctioned move away from the authorized process.That one must accept initiation from a present guru.However he and all of the major personal servants including hauri sauri das,bhakti charu swami,bhavanda das jayapataka goswami....the list is extensive all agree that Prabhupadas intent was to follow the accepted vaisnava initiation procedure.Not to do as many ritviks preach that the only way to krishna is through srila Prabhupada.....thus destroying the vedic culture by leaving aside the present guru who has accepted you as his disciple.And thus committing GURU aparadha while welcoming in an almost christian like you can only get god through jesus.Very wisely one devotee should take shelter of another who is more advanced especially when ones faith in ones guru is under attack.Luckily we are in a siksa line so we can all take shelter of any number of superior devotees ,and most importantly try and serve them personally to allow the transcendental nourishment of ones spiritual life to mature.

All of Prabhupadas disciples are meant to be worshiped in the heart at least by those who are attempting to be progressive.Eventually those grand disciples who are further advanced should glorify and encourage those who have contributed so much to srila Prabhupadas preaching mission especially his disciples.Despite this especially bad western disease called envy, such great souls should indeed be worshiped in a separate fashion because they are spiritual elders.Failing to understand this is a sad indictment upon those who are parading as devotees.Indeed we should all allow room in our day to see the good traits of others.

> to see the good traits of others

A nice story: http://www.veda.harekrsna.cz/library/AllGoodThings.zip

Yuga_avatar_prabhu,

1. TKGs signature is as the secretary. Its Srila Prabhupadas signature that counts.

2. "That one must accept initiation from a present guru." Im sorry you do not feel Srila Prabhupadas presence. Every time I see him sitting on his asana at the Hare Krishna temples, his expression is different. Sometimes he smiles with approval, sometimes he frowns, and I often hear him in my heart. Do you think he is just a statue for decoration?

3. "...many ritviks preach that the only way to krishna is through srila Prabhupada....." If someone else has another way, fine. My way is through Srila Prabhupada.

4. "Very wisely one devotee should take shelter of another who is more advanced especially when ones faith in ones guru is under attack" The only attack on my faith was was my discovery that so many heinous crimes have been committed in ISKCON and the thought that Srila Prabhupada put these guys in power.. The biggest boost to my faith lately was discovering the evidence indicating that Srila Prabhupada appointed rtviks instead of gurus and intended that system to continue.

5. "Luckily we are in a siksa line so we can all take shelter of any number of superior devotees ,and most importantly try and serve them personally to allow the transcendental nourishment of ones spiritual life to mature." Here ( http://www.howardjresnick.com/ ) is an example what you apparently consider a superior devotee from whom we should take siksa, with his teaching that Srila Prabhupada was materially conditioned as discussed at http://www.pariprashnena.com/discussion/770/ .

Yes its a siksa line, but the position of diksa guru is a bully pulpit for giving siksa, so unqualified diksa gurus are the biggest threat to our siksa line.

My dear Pandu das prabhu ,please accept my humble obeisances and all glories to the sampradaya archarya srila Rupa goswami Prabhupada.Our iskcon founder archarya AC Bhaktivedanta swami Prabhupada.And the present guru and future archaryas of iskcon.Firstly srila Prabhupada is one of my siksa guru and also demands my personal obedience and love.However i have been trained up personally to a far higher degree than many who are also iskcon devotees whose veiws are being displayed on this web sight.We are not meant to drift off into sahajaism or sentimentalism by causing offence to the teachings of our spiritual archaryas and predecessor gurus the six goswami and especially Srila Rupa goswami and the seventh goswami Bhaktivinoda thakur.Who if you become conversant with their teachings you will become freed from these sad tendencys to overly sentimentalise our siksa relationship with srila Prabhupada.We are not meant to turn Srila Rupa goswamis transcendental teachings into some rasa bhasya hodge podge.That is the signifigance of our srila Bhaktivinoda thakura s teachings.

He was unable to find a suitable diksa guru,however within a dream sri chaitanya mahaprabhu informed him to take viphina bihari goswami as his guru.His son srila bhaktisiddanta goswami Prabhupada developed almost ferocious aversion to his farthers guru,hence he is rarely referred to ,even though he is the diksa guru of srila Bhaktivinoda thakura.Our line then is uniquely a siksa line and not a diksa line so even though one might disagree with ones diksa guru were are subordinate ideally to the senior vaisnavas who are personally present.Such was the situation of his divine grace Tamala krishna goswami maharaja in my humble opinion.More importantly when our srila Prabhupada felt threatened he very importantly asked tamala krishna goswami to take him away from the mayavadi influence which had entered his movement during the new vrindavan episode..Also when he was about to leave the planet who did he ask to be beside him in his last days.Was it coincidence that he intentional asked for Tamala krishna goswami especially.

Obviously srila Prabhupada was very inclined to accept the service of a certain group of devotees who in ten to twenty year period served him intimately and satisfactorily.And amongst those he further chose some to especially develop their service in a more intimate manner.....eventually to carry on as the senior vaisnavas and gbc representatives to gaurd and develop the iskcon society worldwide.Hence the signifigance of tamala krishna goswamis signature on the ritviks supposed excuse to destroy the gaudia vaisnava sampradaya in the very last days.If one is honest and from a detached piont of veiw and one will see a small group who are present within the videos and the last earthly days of srila Prabhupadas pastimes.More importantly gave repsonsibility to to be their at the end.....hence in my opinion even though he was not my diksa guru,srila Prabhupada put a huge vote of confidence in his divine grace tamala krishna goswami.

Hence seeing the original letter dated july 9th 1977,seeing the signature of our srila Prabhupada and tamala krishna goswami who was acting as his servant in the last days is very important .He personally would be extremely conversant with the final instructions .To accept the normal vaisnava procedure as his grace Tamala krishna and all the other personal servant attest to or as a small group contend.That we join the concocted off shoot,blind leading the blind into the abyss.Rejecting the heritage which was the special mercy of srila Rupa Goswami Prabhupada and the supreme lord sri chaitanya mahaprabhu.I was the diksa disciple of bhavannada goswami who was also directly present in srila Prabhupadas last past times.So i am not talking from some intellectual pie in the sky mentality ,i have struggled for over 15 to twenty years with the sad downfall of my guru.But now that i am one of the few still trying to serve year after year since the late 70s early 80s in my own way and in the association of other devotees i have accepted the real siddhantas which only krishna can show one as kalasamvara the lord of time.We all very much under estimate the incredible power of maya.Whose dharma we are within and whose supreme energys are brought to bear on those servants of krishna to enable them the supreme opportunity to succeed or to be destroyed momentarily by her degrading energy.Having been the devotee of a guru that has fallen down but has not left,i also must follow the sastra and eventually at lest respect him for still serving krishna and his guru...srila ac Bhaktivedanta swami P RABHUPADA.....HARE KRISHNA Pandu das..

Yuga,

Why do I feel my intelligence slip away when I glance at your writing, as if it were some kind of drug? Ill have to come back to this later, not on Ekadasi.

Sri Caitanya Govind,

Hare Krishna. I have no intention of going anywhere. Im not a drifter. I own a home, have a career, maintain a big family and several farm animals, etc. , which would make a move extremely impractical. Im trying to work with the community, but if it stops seeming worthwhile then I have other devotee association, especially my wife and kids. I like going to the temple, but I dont depend upon it either spiritually or materially. Hare Krishna.

Hare Krishna! All glories to the blessed, divine lotus feet of His Divine Grace Srila Prabhupada!

"If one accepts Srila Prabhupada as his guru, is there a need of initiation?"
The question should be, "Who is qualified to give me initiation into the service of Srila Prabhupada without obscuring my connection to him in the least?" For it is said that such a cheater is worse than having no one, since obscuring Srila Prabhupada is the worst offense once can commit.

If one accepts, really accepts Srila Prabhupada as his guru, and is crying in his heart, lamenting that he is not able to actually engage 24/7 as Srila Prabhupadas loving servant, due to offenses, ignorance and materialism, Srila Prabhupada will definitely make known his authorized, bona-fide external representative. Such genuine Sri Guru teachs sri guru tattva and all other tattvas, engages one according to propensity and circumstances in sadhana bhakti, and firmly links him to Srila Prabhupada and all Genuine Vaisnava Acaryas. This is Sri Krishnas movement. Sri Krishna is everywhere and He knows everything. He is the original author of "Sri Guru Nityananda Prabhu and His Divine Mercy Manifestations".

"So Krsna is advising that "I am in everyones heart." You can take advice from Krsna. Krsna is ready. Krsnas another name is caitya-guru. Caitya-guru means the guru who is situated within your heart. Krsna comes out as instructor guru or initiator guru outside, and he is sitting within the heart as caitya-guru. Krsna is ready to help you, help us, every one of us, in two ways: by the external guru and internal guru. Internal guru, He is Krsna Himself, and external guru, His manifestation, the spiritual master. So we should take advantage of two gurus and make our life successful. This is Krsna consciousness movement."

Srila Prabhupada Lecture on Bhagavad-Gita, 09-26-73, Bombay

"The Lord is the Supersoul seated in everyones heart, and He acts as the caitya-guru, the spiritual master within. However, He gives direct instructions only to the advanced, pure devotees. In the beginning, when a devotee is serious and sincere, the Lord gives him directions from within to approach a bona fide spiritual master. When one is trained by the spiritual master according to the regulative principles of devotional service and is situated on the platform of spontaneous attachment for the Lord (raga-bhakti), the Lord also gives instructions from within."

Srimad-Bhagavatam 4:28:41 Purport

Srila Prabhupada ki jai!

And so bhakti Caru swami became a ritvik and left iskcon to jion the apa- sampradaya of Bangalore.......Alchemical....you have possibly taken too much chemical medication today.Having taken your information from that ritvik sun sampradaya source which literally no senior devotee reads unless they are being attacked in my experience because its editorial staff seem more intent on tabloid like sensationalism.Sorry but my siksa guru bhakti caru swami is actually a cultured vaisnava,and an ISKCON MAN LIFE AFTER LIFE in his words.

Dear Pandu das,have the devotees on your farm repurchased their farm equipment?If not get fired up and do something practical about it prabhu.Having asked a Prabhupada disciple,his grace sankarshan das the other day if he had been envious of his divine godbrother Tamal krishna goswamis, intimate final pastimes with srila Prabhupada?His answer was so sublime....yes, he even wrote a letter to srila Prabhupada about it.His divine grace actually encouraged him to surrender to the same degree as those devotees srila prabhupada chose to develop their personal relationships with.You say you feel in connection to initiation and your ritvik feelings and tendencies when commenting to Yuga avatar das. However this was not the last correspondence srila Prabhupada touched on this subject,he clearly tells his foremost disciple tamala krishna goswami ,harisauri das, bhavananda das,bhakti charu swami and jayapataka swami his true intentions that they become guru themselves as he had done ,do as i have done ,,,and by my order you will become qualified by service and surrender.....they were indeed present because of their special surrender.

Sri Caitanya Govind,

No the farm equipment was sold because it had gone unused for so long. The money went to pay Gita-nagaris part of the child abuse lawsuit. I dont know too many details, but several kids got molested in Gita-nagaris school, I think sometime during in the 80s.

Now most of the devotees I know of who are interested in farming dont trust the temple management enough to do much service there. One friend of mine was physically driven out by a former temple president and spit upon last time he visited Sri Sri Radha-Damodara. There are many devotees living in the area whom Ive never even met because theyve given up on the temple. Others still attend but have quit investing their time and energy. The ones I know of have their own projects, following Srila Prabhupadas instructions independently according to their capabilities and individual natures. We have a new temple president since last year, so none of this is his fault, but the devotees interested in farming have mostly dispersed already and I dont think theyre planning to come back any time soon. Im still being asked to serve there, and am doing what I can, but I dont know if or when the day will come when Ill get banned for not having faith in the gbc-approved gurus.

As for the rest of your comment, apparently suggesting that by assuming the role of initiating guru one becomes actually qualified, it just makes my head spin. Before I came to ISKCON I would have assumed those guys were qualified, but not now, no way.

My dear Pandu das,obviously you face a severe test to your desire to perform devotional service in the company of devotees.Though your local temple is struggling according to your vision iskcon is a worldwide society with hundreds of centres which i can atest to are growing significantly.So move to another centre where it appears more poisitive in your opinion.Luckily you have performed devotional service for over ten years so you should be capable of setting up your own environment to preach and give shelter to your family.Thankfully there is no material impediment to performing devotional service to sri krishna chaitanya mahaprabhu.Personally from your description you seem unable to appreciate srila Prabhupadas disciples,hence being unable to obtain their important mercy you are intent on looking at ways to stay marooned at the mercy of your mind ,whose sole intention seems to be to seperate you from surrendering to any other authority other than your minds whims.Myself having been the victim of my mind countless times also ,i refuse to tolerate such lower modes attacking my desire to service my guru and all my siksa guru.Go to mangal arti and get fired up,wether your mind wants to or not.after all it is indeed your enemy,is it not?

Also my new freind,alchemical das.....is bhakti caru swami a ritvik archarya or proponent as your article seems to infer?I am afraid not so please to do not use your sad innuendo to slur his glorious service record to iskcon and the vaishnava tradition.

Sri Chaitanya govind, my previous post was from an article which is published on Sun, it is not my article. I get a feeling that you are very much disturbed by previous post so I will remove it, not to disturb your tranquility and peace of mind.

Hari Bol

"One who is sincere and pure gets an opportunity to consult with the Supreme Personality of Godhead in His Paramatma feature sitting within everyones heart. The Paramatma is always the caitya-guru, the spiritual master within, and He comes before one externally as the instructor and initiator spiritual master. The Lord can reside within the heart, and He can also come out before a person and give him instructions. Thus the spiritual master is not different from the Supersoul sitting within the heart. An uncontaminated soul or living entity can get a chance to meet the Paramatma face to face. Just as one gets a chance to consult with the Paramatma within his heart, one also gets a chance to see Him actually situated before him. Then one can take instructions from the Supersoul directly. This is the duty of the pure devotee: to see the bona fide spiritual master and consult with the Supersoul within the heart."

Srimad-Bhagavatam 4:28:52 Purport

"Krsna appears in two ways. He appears as antaryami, the Supersoul within himself, within oneself, and He appears as the spiritual master, externally. Caitya-guru and diksa-guru. Caitya-guru... As caitya-guru, as the supreme spiritual master, He is in everyones heart. And His representative... In order to help externally the sincere person, He sends the spiritual master. Therefore the spiritual master from outside and the caitya-guru from inside, they are helping. The Supreme Personality is helping a devotee, a real, serious devotee two ways: from within, from without. The Caitanya-caritamrta therefore says that krsnera prakasa, manifestation of Krsna, a spiritual master. And Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakura says, yasya prasadad bhagavat-prasado yasya aprasadad na gatih kuto pi: "If I can satisy my spiritual master, then I understand that Krsna is satisfied. And if I cannot satisfy my spiritual master, then I have no other way to approach Krsna." These songs we sing every day. So my Guru Maharaja used to say that "Instead of seeing Krsna, you serve so faithfully that Krsna will see you." That should be the process. Krsna is omnipresent. He can see you, He can understand you, what are doing. So we have to execute devotional service in such a faithful way that Krsna will see us. Then you will be successful. "Dont try to see Krsna. Try to become seen by Krsna." That was my Guru Maharajas instruction."

Srila Prabhupada Lecture on Srimad-Bhagavatam, 02-10-71, Gorakhpur

"Krsna appears in two ways. He appears as antaryami, the Supersoul within himself, within oneself, and He appears as the spiritual master, externally. Caitya-guru and diksa-guru. Caitya-guru... As caitya-guru, as the supreme spiritual master, He is in everyones heart. And His representative... In order to help externally the sincere person, He sends the spiritual master. Therefore the spiritual master from outside and the caitya-guru from inside, they are helping. The Supreme Personality is helping a devotee, a real, serious devotee two ways: from within, from without. The Caitanya-caritamrta therefore says that krsnera prakasa, manifestation of Krsna, a spiritual master. And Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakura says, yasya prasadad bhagavat-prasado yasya aprasadad na gatih kuto pi: "If I can satisy my spiritual master, then I understand that Krsna is satisfied. And if I cannot satisfy my spiritual master, then I have no other way to approach Krsna." These songs we sing every day. So my Guru Maharaja used to say that "Instead of seeing Krsna, you serve so faithfully that Krsna will see you." That should be the process. Krsna is omnipresent. He can see you, He can understand you, what are doing. So we have to execute devotional service in such a faithful way that Krsna will see us. Then you will be successful. "Dont try to see Krsna. Try to become seen by Krsna." That was my Guru Maharajas instruction."

Srila Prabhupada Lecture on Srimad-Bhagavatam, 02-10-71, Gorakhpur

[quote][cite] maah!:[/cite]Hare Krishna! All glories to the blessed, divine lotus feet of His Divine Grace Srila Prabhupada!

"If one accepts Srila Prabhupada as his guru, is there a need of initiation?"
The question should be, "Who is qualified to give me initiation into the service of Srila Prabhupada without obscuring my connection to him in the least?" For it is said that such a cheater is worse than having no one, since obscuring Srila Prabhupada is the worst offense once can commit.

If one accepts, really accepts Srila Prabhupada as his guru, and is crying in his heart, lamenting that he is not able to actually engage 24/7 as Srila Prabhupadas loving servant, due to offenses, ignorance and materialism, Srila Prabhupada will definitely make known his authorized, bona-fide external representative...[/quote]

On the other hand, if we aspire for devotional service but are not completely free from anarthas, we get an institutional rubber stamped guru who can easily discourage or mislead his disciples? It seems to me that Srila Prabhupada is more merciful than that.[br/][br/]

The lady in this video http://www.xtranormal.com/watch?e=20090718180600101 reminds me a lot of how I was persuaded to accept such a guru, though in fact I wasnt looking for one with a big, big rubber stamp, but rather one who would not interfere with my relationship with Srila Prabhupada. That seemed ok at first but actually failed surprisingly soon.

So because you are unable to please your guru,you intend to jump to your diksa gurus position,take his superior position to attempt to be like the Christians....the only way to god is through jesus.The only way to KRISHNA is through bhaktivedanta swami.Sampradaya line is based on how you feel,i dont feel right so let me feel my way back home to godhead.A new apa-sampradaya is born.....iskconite sahajaism following the first new vrindavana chapter.

[quote]Srila Prabhupada - '93Try to understand. Dont go very speedily. A guru can become guru when he is ordered by his guru. Thats all. Otherwise nobody can become guru. " (SP Bg. Lecture, 28/10/75)[br/][br/]

"Self-made guru cannot be guru. He must be authorized by the bona fide guru. Then hes guru. This is the fact...Similarly, bona fide guru means he must be authorized by the superior guru." (SP NOD Lecture, October 31. 1972)[br/][br/]

"A Guru can be Guru when he is ordered by his Guru. Thats all. Otherwise nobody can become Guru." (SP Bg. Lecture, 28th October 1975) [br/][br/]

"One should take initiation from a bona fide spiritual master coming in the disciplic succession, who is authorised by his predecessor spiritual master. This is called diksa-vidhana." (S.B. 4.8.54, purport)[/quote]
[br/]
Where is the statement from Srila Prabhupada saying that the GBC can authorize diksa gurus?[br/][br/]

[quote]"I am in the initiator guru, and you should be the instructor guru by teaching what I am teaching and doing what I am doing."
(Letter to: Madhudvisa: -- Detroit 4 August, 1975)
[br/][br/]
"Make your own field and continue to become rttvik and act on my charge."
(Room Conversation -- July 19, 1977, Vrndavana)
[/quote]

Ritvik Issue eyewitness account by gauridas pandita das:

http://www.youtube.com/view_play_list?p=0F1B7A3703E4F957

The Supreme Lord is situated in everyones heart, O Arjuna, and is directing the wanderings of all living entities, who are seated as on a machine, made of the material energy. BG 15.15

Nothing happens by accident. The more we complain and blame, the less we are able to see Him, Who is behind it all.
And isnt the goal to see Him?

Pandu, while asking "Where is the statement from Srila Prabhupada saying that the GBC can authorize diksa gurus?", one could ask you about when Srila Prabhupada himself was authorized to start initiating? I cannot recall reading anywhere, that Srila Prabhupada was directly instructed by Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati to start initiating, or to leave Gaudiya-matha and start his own independent mission and not cooperate with Gaudiya math in setting the GBC system. As far as I know, spoken instruction was directed specifically towards preaching in the English speaking countries.

Similar could be asked regarding authorisation of any guru in vaisnava sampradaya throughout entire history. Did they all have written authorisations or something? How do you expect this to work in practice?

It is clear that Srila Prabhupada is authorized to do all that he did. But still, there is no tape recording, or written authorisation from Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati. So it may be improper to expect such authorization for ISKCON gurus, especially after Srila Prabhupada authorized all his qualified disciples to initiate in the future.
============
I want that all of my spiritual sons and daughters will inherit this title of Bhaktivedanta, so that the family transcendental diploma will continue through the generations. Those possessing the title of Bhaktivedanta will be allowed to initiate disciples. Maybe by 1975, all of my disciples will be allowed to initiate and increase the numbers of the generations. That is my program.

>>> Ref. VedaBase => Letter to: Hamsaduta -- Los Angeles 3 January, 1969 [Based on the 1st paragraph, we believe that the original letter was incorrectly dated. Our estimate is that this is the correct date. -- Bhaktivedanta Archives]
============

Idea, that only Srila Prabhupada can be guru in ISKCON, is inconsistent with his teachings. Of course, unqualified gurus cause havoc, and in shortage of qualified gurus, officiating acaryas are best solution. But eventually what is required is qualification, both from gurus and disciples. If knowledgeable disciple tests a guru and finds required qualification, then why there shouldnt be a natural guru/disciple relationship, including the formality of initiation ceremony?

Giri-nayaka Prabhu,
[br/][br/]
The quotes I provided yesterday were from Srila Prabhupada, not myself or anyone else. He repeatedly said a guru must be authorized by his predecessor guru. Srila Prabhupada authorized up to siksa guru but did not authorize diksa gurus, neither did he say the GBC could authorize anyone on his behalf, nor did he say anything about balancing authority between the GBC and many diksa gurus. (On that last point consider for example that the GBC has prohibited certain honorific titles and names that some diksa gurus like their disciples to use for them. Should the disciple obey his diksa guru or the GBC in this conflict?) He instituted a system facilitated by rtviks and said there should be no change. He never said it was only for when he was sick nor did he say it should stop upon his disappearance or at any time.[br/][br/]

In the matter of his own authorization, Srila Prabhupada said in an April 28, 1974, letter to Rupanuga, in reference to Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Prabhupada:
[br/][br/]
[quote]If Guru Maharaja could have seen someone who was qualified at that time to be acarya he would have mentioned. Because on the night before he passed away he talked of so many things, but never mentioned an acarya. His idea was talked of so many things, but never mentioned an acarya. His idea was acarya was not to be nominated amongst the governing body. He said openly you make a GBC and conduct the mission. So his idea was amongst the members of GBC who would come out successful and self effulgent acarya would be automatically selected.[/quote]
[br/]
Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati said the next acarya would be self-effulgent. That was obviously Srila Prabhupada, self-effulgent. As we have already shown, Srila Prabhupada instituted a rtvik system to enable him to continue accepting disciples after his manifest pastimes concluded.
[br/][br/]
[br/]
You cited:
[quote] Maybe by 1975, all of my disciples will be allowed to initiate and increase the numbers of the generations. That is my program.[/quote]
[br/]
Do you think that when Srila Prabhupada wrote that letter, he was thinking of leaving the planet by that time? If so, he gave no such indicaiton. If he told Tusta Krishna and others that a disciple cannot accept his own disciples in the presence of his own spiritual master, why would he say that his disciples could accept their own diksa disciples by some date? That would be a contradiction. In fact he did institute a system whereby his disciples were initiating disciples in 1975, and that was a rtvik system whereby they were his servants accepting disciples all over the world for him, a system that he intended to continue for many generations.

Pandu Prabhu,[br/][br/]
[quote]The quotes I provided yesterday were from Srila Prabhupada, not myself or anyone else.[/quote]
[br/]
Yes, Im quite aware of all the quotes you posted. Im trying to point out, that there is more to the entire picture. My point is that Srila Prabhupada said not only that, but also provided other perspectives. We can personally limit ourselves on just part of Srila Prabhupadas instructions, and we will be just fine. But we cannot enforce such partial understanding on others. Others may wish to approach matter from other perspectives. Ritvik system, as practiced today in ISKCON, is one perspective. GBCs system is another perspective. More and more I get the feeling, that there is more to the guru issue than we are able to comprehend at the moment. :D[br/]
[br/]
There is widespread idea in ISKCON, especially among those who are a bit dazzled by mundane academics, that Srila Prabhupada invented ISKCON as he went, and that his earlier instructions were more or less "tapping in the dark". They say, that later instructions nullify (overpower) the previous one. They try to present idea, that Srila Prabhupada in beginning really didnt know what he was doing, but later on he learned the real thing through trial/error. I dont find peace in such ideas, so I avoid them.[br/]
[br/]
Im not saying that you, Pandu, are offensive to Srila Prabhupada in such way. I just feel that todays ritviks are quite selective in interpretation of Srila Prabhupadas teachings. What they say is all truth, no doubt. But it is not entire truth, just a part of it. A great plus for todays ritviks is, that at least they try to base their ideas directly on Srila Prabhupadas words. GBCs on the other hand, are distastefully innovative and arrogant in their presentations.[br/]
[br/]
You say: [quote]Srila Prabhupada authorized up to siksa guru but did not authorize diksa gurus,...[/quote]
[br/]
This is assumption. There is no direct statement from Srila Prabhupada confirming this idea. And there are statements contrary to this idea. This assumption is sprouting out of selective interpretation.
[br/][br/]
It is clear that Srila Prabhupada implemented ritvik system, before and after his departure. It is a valid system, which is to significant degree followed also by GBC voted (institutional) gurus.
[br/][br/]
[quote]In the matter of his own authorization, Srila Prabhupada said in an April 28, 1974, letter to Rupanuga, in reference to Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Prabhupada...[/quote]
[br/]
You will have hard time providing written authorization from BSST. So, my point remains - why are you expecting from ISKCON gurus to have something, that was never before required, namely written authorization? Im just saying, that this argument regarding written authorization is weak.
[br/][br/]
And regarding "Maybe by 1975, all of my disciples will be allowed to initiate and increase the numbers of the generations. That is my program.", you say:[quote]Do you think that when Srila Prabhupada wrote that letter, he was thinking of leaving the planet by that time?[/quote][br/]
No, I dont say 1975 was some kind of deadline. What Im saying is, that there is more to understanding of guru-tattva than "ritviks", or "GBCs", are able to present to us through their understandings and actions. Srila Prabhupada offered understanding, and we approach this understanding from our limited perspectives. I know things may look as contradictions, but that is exactly my point. There is no real contradictions, it just looks contradictory, because we choose to limit ourselves on certain comfortable part of teachings.
[br/][br/]
Some things cannot be pushed. When our glass is full, no matter how much more we try to squeeze into it, it will always hold the same amount of water. Perception of contradictions is a good sign, that we reached our limits. "Ritviks" and "GBCs" appear to contradict each other, but actually they are both to large degree just part of one bigger thing. With time material impurities in both camps will be removed, and differences will thus become reduced.
[br/][br/]
We have a long time to go, 9500 years is a lot of time, comparing to 2000 yrs of Christianity. Vaisnavism will get in line with visions of acaryas, but not just yet. :)
[br/][br/]
"Ritvik system", as is propagated today, is to some degree different from officiating acarya system implemented by Srila Prabhupada. Same stands for GBCs "institutional guru system", which is also to some degree different from officiating acarya system implemented by Srila Prabhupada. But besides the officiating acarya system (valid in absence of qualified gurus and disciples), Srila Prabhupada implemented also traditional guru system, where qualified self-effulgent guru and qualified disciple meet, and transfer of transcendental knowledge takes place.
[br/][br/]...

All glories to my siksa guru ,tamala krishna goswami who in my opinion was the foremost servant of srila Prabhupada at whose feet i spent many a wonderful class and informal sadhu association and hence i was eternally blessed.Since reading your writings Pandu das i realise how fortunate i truly was.

Also what is indeed signifigant is that gurus unique mercy is intended for those who are progressive in their desire to surrender. The special mercy of guru and gauranga will be allowed to work in the heart of that devotee who is actually sincere.Who is extremely motivated to put into practise this incredible gift of attempting to see krishnas mercy in his every moment.This is not so cheap ,hence not all devotees have that sublime ability to receive krishnas mercy through his agent...his siksa and diksa guru,his neophyte devotee or even his pure representative.We are not blessed by such sadhu sanga unless krishna enables us to receive his grace.Hence since this is a sankirtan movement,we will imbibe the most signifigant reciprocation through those great souls who are blissfully engaged in sri Chaitanyas attempt to engage the non-devotees in hearing and chanting Krishnas glories.
We are indeed fortunate because iskcon has hundreds of such empowered persons, some are further empowered by being able to engage the demons in giving their hard earned incomes for his iskcon movement.Thus further empowering this worldwide dynamic preaching movement.Hence i was indeed blessed by that great soul and foremost servant of srila Prabhupada ,tamala krishna goswami by whose mercy the simple everyday devotional blessing astound me even today,a good twenty to thirty odd years later.What i take for granted Pandu das ,you unfortunately have not received in my humble opinion.Which leads me to suggest new devotees should search to see which line was empowered by srila Prabhupada,obviously this is indeed difficult however i have indeed been blessed so others will also indeed be nourished to the same degree or even much further.

"Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati said the next acarya would be self-effulgent. That was obviously Srila Prabhupada, self-effulgent. As we have already shown, Srila Prabhupada instituted a rtvik system to enable him to continue accepting disciples after his manifest pastimes concluded. " Pandu das quote.

1. All Acaryas are self-effulgent.
2. There is no way Srila Prabhupada would institute a rivik system contrary to the desire of Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakur, His Divine Master. Doing so would invalidate his own position as surrendered disciple. He wanted ISKCON to do exactly the same as Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakur did. Conduct the mission by GBC and select the self-effulgent Acarya among us to advance the spiritual lives of the devotees, birth after birth.
3. We are really blinded by aspirations, greed, pride and jealousy so we cannot realize who is the self-effulgent Acarya because we dont actually love Srila Prabhupada and want to serve Him unconditionally birth after birth, we just want to be reknown as Prabhupada fans. Rah rah rah.

"On the other hand, if we aspire for devotional service but are not completely free from anarthas, we get an institutional rubber stamped guru who can easily discourage or mislead his disciples? It seems to me that Srila Prabhupada is more merciful than that. Though in fact I wasnt looking for one with a big, big rubber stamp, but rather one who would not interfere with my relationship with Srila Prabhupada."

Dear Pandu Prabhu,

Srila Prabhupada is so merciful we cannot comprehend it. We cant even experience a drop of the ocean of Srila Prabhupadas Mercy. Otherwise, how could we complain that our discouragement with our situation is because Srila Prabhupada is not merciful enough? These are tests, baba. We all face them and have to overcome them.

Because His internal form is located right within your own heart, Srila Prabhupada knows your desires and what you deserve, too. If you are looking for someone who will not interfere with your relationship with Srila Prabhupada, but rather BE your relationship with Srila Prabhupada, it will be the person who knows you by heart, the person who can defeat you in every way, answer every question, who is the embodiment of honest, selfless surrender to Srila Prabhupada, and who always only glorifies the Acaryas, Srila Prabhupada and the Lord.

He will be shown to you only if you sincerely want to serve Srila Prabhupada birth after birth. As Caitya guru, that is His Divine function, to show you His external form. He knows you better than you know yourself. We get what we want and deserve. There is no mistake by God.

One more thing, lots of times devotees worry about their problems and about not making it "back to Godhead" this life. The mood of real devotees is the mood of Lord Caitanya, "All i want is your causeless devotional service in my life, birth after birth." Frankly, most of us are not going to go back to Godhead this life, but Sri Caitya Guru stays with each soul, birth after birth, and He will make all arrangements for us to advance more and more if we just remain true to Srila Prabhupada. We can stop worrying about ourselves and focus more on trying to bring happiness to Srila Prabhupada. The ISKCON society will engage beginners in Srila Prabhupadas service. When the time is right, we will get His external form, then, when the time is right we will get His internal form. After that the Lords actual spontaneous devotional service. This is a very hopeful and secure path.

Hare Krishna.
in the service of Srila Prabhupada

"He wanted ISKCON to do exactly the same as Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakur did." Why, then, did he not say that when he was asked on May 28, 1977, about how initiations should be managed after his disappearance? He said officiating acarya, a.k.a. rtvik acarya and gave a detailed announcement on July 9.
.
"We cant even experience a drop of the ocean of Srila Prabhupadas Mercy." That sounds nice but doesnt makes much sense to me. Lord Caitanyas purpose was to make His mercy accessible.

"...it will be the person who knows you by heart, the person who can defeat you in every way, answer every question..." Thats definitely not the person who gave me first initiation. Hes given me very little inspiration or instruction, has lied to me and broken a promise when I really needed him to follow through, judged me harshly without hearing my side of the story, stopped my training for second initiation because I was speaking honestly about dishonorable conduct by leaders in my community, neglected to explain why he did these things when I asked him about it, then expected unflinching obedient service for his comfort while my wife was overwhelmed caring for our newborn baby and our other children.

"He will be shown to you only if you sincerely want to serve Srila Prabhupada birth after birth" How do you know that my service in this birth is not to push for his order to be carried out in the matter of continuing to accept disciples in ISKCON? If I cant get him as my guru in this birth then I will get him in my next birth. He already showed me Krishna before I ever met another devotee, and he means more to me than all the rest of ISKCON. Ive already decided that getting him as my guru is worth being exiled (though I certainly hope that would not happen), otherwise I would not be speaking like this. I cannot imagine anyone else as my guru.

"One more thing, lots of times devotees worry about their problems and about not making it "back to Godhead" this life." Im not worried about that. Krishna offered to take me back with Him almost thirteen years ago, but I chose to take His advice and stay to appreciate gradual advancement from the beginning stage of devotional service. Im not sure how many lifetimes that will be, but based on my lack of progress so far it seems like itll be a while.

What was the result of the Gaudiya Math not selecting Srila Prabhupada as the Acarya as he manifested His effulgence? They got left out but they dont even realize it. Even now they are claiming they got the answer, they got the position. Actually, they lost connection with the Supersoul and according to Srila Prabhupada, became dried-up tribularies of the Sri Guru Parampara river of Krishna Prema. (CC) They claim to be associates of Sri Sri Radha and Krishna but do not even know their own Spiritual Masters eternal, internal form, so what can they have realized? It is only by the blessing of the Mercy Manifestation of Lord Nityananda that one can approach service of Sri Sri Radha and Krishna. This is the work of Kali- pretending and cheating.

HAD they realized Who Srila Prabhupada was and cooperated with him they would have been saved, it was envy and ambition which kept them from the truth. As the surrendered disciple of Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakur, Srila Prabhupada always follows his own master, He does not invent or concoct any new way. The scriptural passages describing the relationship between the Lord, the Supersoul, the Spiritual Master and the disciple are not invalid. They are real and eternal. The ritviks should humbly serve their eternal master the Supersoul Chaita guru, and because they cant hear Him speaking directly within their hearts, they should "select the self-effulgent acarya among them" and cooperate, while acting as ritviks of Srila Prahupada. ISKCON gurus should do the same. Otherwise, despite thinking they know everything and have the position....dried up.

Pranams to you all'85 I have not written here for a while but i need help with my research....

I have a question to all the disciples of Srila Prabhupada or anybody else '91in the know'92'85

Did SP specifically ask the 11 authorized initiating gurus to play his Gayatri tape to the new brahmana initiates after his passing, or did he authorize the 11 to give Gayatri mantra directly to those disciples?

Please forgive me for bringing up this issue here, but I am looking for some historical perspective from those who were around when the Transition took place.

Your help will be greatly appreciated.

your servant...

[quote][cite] Kula-pavana:[/cite]Pranams to you all'85 I have not written here for a while but i need help with my research....

I have a question to all the disciples of Srila Prabhupada or anybody else '91in the know'92'85

Did SP specifically ask the 11 authorized initiating gurus to play his Gayatri tape to the new brahmana initiates after his passing, or did he authorize the 11 to give Gayatri mantra directly to those disciples?

Please forgive me for bringing up this issue here, but I am looking for some historical perspective from those who were around when the Transition took place.

Your help will be greatly appreciated.

your servant...[/quote]

Tape was used way before these 11 were nomitated. But there is no clarity about second initiation at all, they were definitelly to give first initiations. However even before the 11 were selected senior devotees were giving gayatri mantras (before the tape and during the tape).

Diksa-mad people give yourself a break and read some books for a change....

Yasodanandana: First we have to get the ISKCON students first.
Prabhupada: ISKCON or FISKCON, bring students. (laughter)
Dr. Sharma: Prabhupada, these students can come, any number you like.
Prabhupada: So that I want. I want the number. It doesnt matter ISKCON or FISKCON.

Prabhupadas word play made the devotees laugh. But he was serious.

Just to add some spice,i once asked my siksa guru his divine grace Tamala krishna goswami about the ability of some devotees to serve in an inspired manner previous to initiation.Though i had been stumbling along for 8 months,other prospective devotees were obviously empowered, they were situated on the devotional mood and were more convinced.They were able to perform sankirtan in an almost blessed empowered manner., their intent was superior naturally,while being also very successfully.Their sadhana was steady ,they chanted with an intensity that i marveled at.These were the days of complete surrender,an almost total dedication to sankirtan books and paraphenalia which meant the society had a cohesion that is now very hard to find in my opinion.He answered that for these devotees,the initiating spiritual master is already present.I was envious as hell,though not initiated i was glad when we all took diksa at the same time.

So for what ever reason these great soul who were indeed fully surrendered at that stage we being nourished.They were sorrounded by twenty to thirty senior Prabhupada disciples who competed to give wonderful classes everyday.Such siksa guru association now would naturally uplift all of us , as a result i learnt to see that they were also being empowered by all of srila Prabhupadas disciples. While i had been performing devotional service in a more relaxed peaceful manner....I had to admit they had indeed been forging ahead,seemingly being blessed by all these wonderful classes and advanced devotee blessings and wellwishes....at least thats how it seemed.Now today i understand the potency of indeed surrendering to senior devotees,forfilling their service demands and how completely satisfying it can be to the sincere sadhaka devotee..

Actually ccd and pandu das srila Prabhupada did actually accept at least one guru to initiate even while he was personally present.That was his grace siddhaswarupananda maharaja who had infact been accepted by srila Prabhupada.He had already been initiating before joining iskcon and accepting Prabhupada .He was directed that in the future all disciples should be brought to him personally to be initiated.That was in New Zealand and this can be verified by madhudwisa das the gbc at the time.He was told to continue after srila Prabhupada ascent to the spiritual world.

[quote][cite] sri_govinda_das:[/cite]Actually ccd and pandu das srila Prabhupada did actually accept at least one guru to initiate even while he was personally present.[/quote] Okkkkayyyya.- never heard this one used before.

Siddhaswarupa swami was the gbc in hawaii in1976....He was able to lead a group of devotees called theharibolswho had a chapter in new Zealand.The haribols were more relaxed with the regulative principles...possibly following one or two ...according to how they felt.In new Zealand the haribol chapter was lead by tusta krishna swami so when srila Prabhupada came he encouraged both groups of devotees.Siddhaswarupa swami and tusta krishna swami had experienced problems dealing with madhudwisa swami and the local iskcon devotees.....both groups wanted clarification as to who was the legitimate ,authorized followers of srila Prabhupada.

[quote][cite] ccd:[/cite][quote][cite] sri_govinda_das:[/cite]Actually ccd and pandu das srila Prabhupada did actually accept at least one guru to initiate even while he was personally present.[/quote] Okkkkayyyya.- never heard this one used before.[/quote]
I mean used in the debate for initiations. So are you saying Siddhasvarup ananda Maharaj initiated his own disciples under the approval from Prabhupada. Do you know thier names?

My freinds and sincere devotees i remebered the story of siddha swaruppa maharaja and tusta krishna swami however was surprised to actually find some factual proofs in the form of srila Prabhupadas actual letters...imagine my amazement and genuine enthusiasm to learn what these letters mean to us all.

I have only been able to find this one example of srila PRABHUPADA directly describing the future guru parampara system he wants very clearly concerning this extreme situation which developed naturally when siddhaswarupa maharaja was indeed initiating within the personal presence of his guru.....srila Prabhupada.
And i directly quote the letter of srila PRABHUPADA dated 2/12/75 letter to tusta krishna
,But as a matter of etiquette it is the custom that during the lifetime of your spiritual master you bring the prospective disciples to him, and in his absence or disappearance you can accept disciples without any limitation.This is the law of disciplic succession.

So some 2 years previously tusta krishna swami had broken away from iskcon,along with siddhaswarupa swami. However srila Prabhupada refused to reject his followers called the Haribols merely because they kept long hair and did not follow strictly.He encouraged them equally however because siddhaswarupa swami was initiating even before he joined iskcon personally and continued doing so.....this had indeed created an unusual situation which needed to be attended to personally by his divine grace.
Especially because the GBC of the zone was Madhudwisa swami who was unused to two different hare krishna , groups and wanted there to be one leader for the area.In conclusion srila Prabhupada asked siddhaswarupa to follow madhudwisa swami because he was older.....this would infact please him very much.
Siddhaswarupa swami was unable to follow his desire,,,,,,,,the etiquette of not accepting disciples within the presence of ones guru,specifically within srila Prabhupadas personal appearance was discussed and it was agreed by both groups that it should stop hence forth.

Well, I can understand Siddhasvarupas situation. If I had a GBC Madhuvisa Swami, I probably would have hard time too. For some reason after meeting him he did not inspire me, but people change (just like you, my dear sri_govinda_das, you can not take Devamrita Swami as your authority can you). But are you saying it was a well known fact that he initiated his own disciples when his guru was present (but not in his presence).

[quote][cite] ccd:[/cite]
Tape was used way before these 11 were nomitated. But there is no clarity about second initiation at all, they were definitelly to give first initiations. However even before the 11 were selected senior devotees were giving gayatri mantras (before the tape and during the tape).[/quote]

I am aware of that. I gave taped Gayatri initiation on behalf of Harikesa Maharaja in 1980, but it was a tape of Harikesas chanting. It was behind the Iron Curtain so it had to be done that way.

Sometime between 1977 and 1980 Prabhupadas tape was replaced with Gayatri given directly by the 11 gurus Prabhupada chose. I was just wondering if there was some record of SP instructions in that matter.

Well he said '93I stop for the time being'94 at October 18th 1977, thus he did not want the system started in early 70s to continue. Tape or no-tape. What I said is that even with Prabhupada himself still giving it personally some devotees would give others gayatri mantra and recite them to Prabhupadas direct disciples before that.

Prabhupada tried very hard to follow his spiritual master and not to appoint an acharya, he trained his disciples doing his initiations, he then introduced many gurus who were nominated by him, he kept this list open and it should have been expanded more and more, he did not call any of them acharyas in any correspondence and never asked his disciples to be an acharya of his institution. But really anyone who is a good vaisnava can give a diksa to another devotee, tape or no-tape.

[quote][cite] ccd:[/cite]

Prabhupada he then introduced many gurus who were nominated by him, .[/quote]

???

.

http://therealexplanation.org/article/NEW_THEORY.html

ysvt.

There are two types of service to guru, pari-carya-rupa seva and prasanga-rupa seva. To hear hari-katha from the lips of guru-vaisnava-sadhu is prasanga-rupa seva. Hearing, sravanam, is a service, a seva. It is a seva that begins with the ear. Srila Jagadananda Pandit says in Prema Vivarta, chapter 6, that by hearing hari-katha, krsna-katha, from guru - sadhu-sange nija tattva abagata hana - then the jiva can understand, "Who am I?" "I am krsna-dasa, Krishnas eternal servant. I am not a member of this material family. I am one of the members of Krishnas family." Sadhu-guru is one of the members of Krishnas immediate family. The gurus family means Krishnas family. "I belong to my gurus parivara, family. Therefore my duty is to serve the sri-anga, the transcendental body of guru." That is paricarya-rupa seva. Of the two types of service, prasanga-rupa seva and paricarya-rupa seva, paricarya-rupa seva is superior.

Once, to practically teach us, Mahaprabhu manifested a very wonderful lila. Daily, after his midday meal, Mahaprabhu would take some rest and Go-vinda would massage his legs. When Mahaprabhu would fall asleep, Govinda would get up and take his meal. This was a daily activity. Once after taking his prasada, Mahaprabhu lay down at the threshold of the narrow doorway. Govindas seva was to massage Mahaprabhus legs and help him to sleep. Govinda requested, "Please, just turn over so that I may go to the other side of the room and do my service." Mahaprabhu said, "I am very tired, Govinda. I cannot turn over on my side. You do what ever you like. I cannot move.

I am very tired." This is a very wonderful lila. Govinda thought, "What can I do? Shall I neglect my service today? Then what is the use of this life?" This seva, paricarya-rupa seva, is the best type of seva.

One who is a real sevaka, a real servant, is not a hypocrite. If one is outwardly posing as a servant but inside is something else, then he is a great hypocrite. If one thinks that by serving and flatter-ing he will get some material gain, then this is great hypocrisy. A real sevaka is a servant who wants nothing for himself. One who is serving for the pleasure of guru gets the mercy of Krishna. Krishna has said in Bhagavad-gita (10.10):tesam satata-yuktanam bhajatam priti-purvakam dadami buddhi-yogam tam yena mam upayanti te. To those who are constantly devoted to serv-ing me with love, I give the understanding by which they can come to me. He who is doing priti-purvakam, bhajana with love, who is constantly attached to Krish-na, constantly engaged in the loving service of guru, he gets the mercy. Krishna gives him pure intelligence. Govinda got that intelligence. He spread his cloth over the transcendental body of Mahaprabhu, crossed over his body and went to the other side of the room to massage his legs. While he was massaging, Mahaprabhu fell asleep. Still, Govinda continued massaging. After one hour Mahaprabhu got up and asked Govinda, "Have you taken your food?" "No.""Why have you not taken your food?" "How can I take? I am on this side of the room. How can I go to the other side? "How did you come to this side? Why didnt you leave the same way you came? "Why shall I go? By coming to this side I think I committed some wrong. Still I had to do it because this is my seva. I should not be prevented from doing my seva. This service is for your pleasure, not for my pleasure or happiness. I can do anything for your pleasure. Why shall I take food to fill my belly for my own happiness? I cannot do that." This story is a practical example how paricarya-rupa seva is a superior type of seva to prasanga-rupa seva.

Paricarya-rupa seva is vapu-seva, serving the body of guru, and prasanga-rupa seva is vani-seva, serving the gurus instructions. Mahaprabhu has exhibited this. The chief result of guru-seva is developing love at the lotus feet of Krishna, krsna-priti-vidhan, to give pleasure to Krishna. All other marginal results are anusangika-seva, automatically obtained by service. For example, the chief purpose of planting a mango tree is to get the juicy mango fruit. But anusangika, automatically, you also get very cool shade. The mango grows up, develops branches, and gives cool shade. Although shade was not the purpose of planting the mango tree, it is automatically re-ceived. Similarly, the chief result of guru-seva is krsna-pada-padme-priti-to develop love at the lotus feet of Krishna. All other results are second-ary or marginal fruits, tatastha-phala.

- From Worship of Sri Guru. Gopal Jiu Publications. Bhubaneswar, Orissa. 2000. Pages 94-97.

[quote][cite] borokrsnadasa:[/cite] the chief result of guru-seva is krsna-pada-padme-priti-to develop love at the lotus feet of Krishna. All other results are second-ary or marginal fruits, tatastha-phala. [/quote] Your love for me will be manifest by how you cooperate with each other..."by the fruits..."

Yes you have understood my explaination ccd,this is the vaisnava culture continued by srila Prabhupada....as such because srila Prabhupada directed his eleven foremost disciples to initiate on his behalf while he was personally present on the planet.This was accepted as ritvik,until after his divine grace left his body then these devotees would infact initiate on their own behalf and carry on the accepted vaisnava procedure.

As can be proved by this letter to his errant discipletusta krishna swami,And i directly quote the letter of srila PRABHUPADA dated 2/12/75 letter.....
,But as a matter of etiquette it is the custom that during the lifetime of your spiritual master you bring the prospective disciples to him, and in his absence or disappearance you can accept disciples without any limitation.This is the law of disciplic succession. This in my opinion is a huge Problem for the ritviks,because srila Prabhupada has in his own words established his own vision that it is the law of disciplic succession.Also mahavishnu swami is another interesting unique example.....

It does not correlate perfectly. There r other quotes that pretty much prove to me that SP did not mind disciples becoming Diksa Guru even if not fully qualified Uttama. However he did not specifically authurise 11 to become Diksa. Even TKG revealed and admitted such at the Pyramid House seminars.

Gauranga!

[quote][cite] sri_govinda_das:[/cite]As can be proved by this letter to his errant discipletusta krishna swami,And i directly quote the letter of srila PRABHUPADA dated 2/12/75 letter.....
,But as a matter of etiquette it is the custom that during the lifetime of your spiritual master you bring the prospective disciples to him, and in his absence or disappearance you can accept disciples without any limitation.This is the law of disciplic succession. This in my opinion is a huge Problem for the ritviks,because srila Prabhupada has in his own words established his own vision that it is the law of disciplic succession.Also mahavishnu swami is another interesting unique example.....[/quote]

As far as I know it was not Tusta Krsna (not a swami at the time) who SP had in mind in this letter. The initiating in question was done by Siddhasvarupa Maharaja, of whom Tusta Krsna was a very close associate. Eventually both sides relented a little and SP let Siddha be largely independent from Iskcon while he was still initiating disciples on SP behalf.

I am sorry that devamrita maharaja is unable to envoke much enthusiasm within myself and my godbrothers,However we personally new in our time far more empowered Prabhupada disciples in out time.....Also we are set in our ways after all 25 to thirty years of being a solider for krishna ,it does take an especially empowered individual for us to really take notice of and take them seriously....after all he has significantly kept his disciples seperate from iskcon and only recently introducing srila Prabhupada to some small degree.....Many of those he preaches to get banned when they inform his devotees that they do not intend to be his disciple...i could go on but what is the point,that is only our common opinion and soon their will indeed be hundreds of gurus within iskcon as Prabhupadas direct disciples mature naturally.

In a letter to madhudwisa swami on 15/12/1973 srila Prabhupada strictly determines the errant behaviour of his follower siddhaswarupa swami who had left iskcon and had started his own group.Which locally became known as the haribols.They grew quite large in our part of the world however when they were close to his divine grace srila Prabhupada he encouraged everyone to receive his unique mercy by shaving up and becoming more sincere by chanting 16 rounds and following all the principles....There was a conflict between the two groups over book distribution and exactly how the public reacted to sometimes heavy handed sankirtan tactics by the iskcon devotees.I remember when as a new bhakta seeing the haribols and thinking maybe i was with the wrong group,because their sankirtan harinama party had literally hundreds of devotees and ours a mere fifteen to twenty.....However they were not progressive and gradually dissolved especially after several of their members blew them selves up in an concocted attempt to explode a large bomb in Auckland ,new Zealand at the local slaughter house.Thus illustrating dynamically why we should indeed be content to treasure the unique mood of our founder Archarya and not change things as siddhaswarupa swami did do.As a result his group have now disappeared from our local scene long ago.

[quote][cite] sri_govinda_das:[/cite]As can be proved by this letter to his errant discipletusta krishna swami,And i directly quote the letter of srila PRABHUPADA dated 2/12/75 letter.....
,But as a matter of etiquette it is the custom that during the lifetime of your spiritual master you bring the prospective disciples to him, and in his absence or disappearance you can accept disciples without any limitation.This is the law of disciplic succession. This in my opinion is a huge Problem for the ritviks,because srila Prabhupada has in his own words established his own vision that it is the law of disciplic succession.Also mahavishnu swami is another interesting unique example.....[/quote]

Its funny that you would think that. Hearing that same argument gave me a big push in the direction of the rtviks, since it was so weak and counter-intuitive that it became obvious that the anti-rtviks had little evidence supporting their view. [br][br]

Your view on this is thoroughly refuted in this paper:[br][br]
http://www.iskconirm.com/docs/webpages/institutional_cataclysm.htm

[quote][cite] Nrsingha:[/cite]It does not correlate perfectly. There r other quotes that pretty much prove to me that SP did not mind disciples becoming Diksa Guru even if not fully qualified Uttama. However he did not specifically authurise 11 to become Diksa. Even TKG revealed and admitted such at the Pyramid House seminars.

Gauranga![/quote]

Thats not a big issue to me. If an aspiring devotee and an advanced devotee want to have a guru-disciple relationship, its not really my business, although I think it should be done outside of ISKCON because it reduces the perceived importance of Srila Prabhupadas teachings. My main concern is that I have yet to see any evidence that Srila Prabhupada wanted the rtvik system he instituted to terminate upon his disappearance.

Dear pandu das , what is your long term vision as to how philosophical differences which seem incompatible to me are to be dealt with practically.,Naturally since we are followers of sanatana goswami and he never mentions ritvik archarya ,i personally have never met any ritvik archaryas,so am at a loss as to how such a different philosophy could infact be accomodated within iskcon.Can you see any possibilities.....or as i see it is it another haribols group which breaks off to do their own thing separately.
......have you met any ritvik swamis within Iskcon or on the GBC....How do you think iskcon should deal with such ritvk understandings since according to the sastra it is an apa-sampradaya perversion.This seems to be an american export with several small centres and Bangalore temple being the obvious examples which has already separated itself naturally.
Also what would your team like to be known as.....reformed vaisnavas church,ritviks of usa,ex-iskcon ritviks,,,, followers of srila Prabhupada.We personally have never met any ritviks .....one young man who is a vegan recently bought the subject up with me ....but he was from europe just passing through
I sincerely tried to read the ritvik letter which suposedly authorises this movement to divert away from our vaisnava heritage.

When i saw Tamala krishna goswamis name on this letter i was indeed shocked and burst out aloud because his mood was symptomatic of the law of disciplic succession not of this very recent fashionable ritvik spiritual group...
.who would your leader be ?Are you intending to systematically organise yourselfs.....sorry is there a group of you in america ?Since we are only in new Zealand which is very insignifigant we are unaware of your numbers.Are you part of devamritas vegan movment......?

sri_govinda prabhu,

You can try to follow Sanatana Gosvami if you want, but I am tryig to follow the current Acarya, whom I understand to be Srila Prabhupada. Are you suggesting that the actions by Srila Prabhpuada that were not specifically authorized by Satana Gosvami were not bona fide?

Nobody can argue that Srila Prabhupada instituted a rtvik system for initiating disciples over long distances during his manifest pastimes. Can you show me somewhere that Satana Gosvami authorized that? If not, then youre stuck either giving up your argument or having to say that Srila Prabhupadas initiation methodology was bogus. There are many other examples we could discuss as well, but I have to go in a minute.

Satsvarupa: ...Then our next question concerns initiations in the future, particularly at that time when youre no longer with us. We want to know how first and second initiation would be conducted.
Prabhupada: Yes. I shall recommend some of you. After this is settled up, I shall recommend some of you to act as Officiating-Acaryas.
Tamala Krsna: Is that called Rtvik-Acarya?
Prabhupada: Rtvik. Yes

Srila Prabhupada never placed much emphasis on formal diksa and that is why I doubt very much that he would disregard what he clearly knew was the law of disciplic succession to make himself a diksa guru for the next 10,000 years. That is about as absurd as it gets.

Nobody stopped SP from initiating his own disciples, not even his supposedly envious Godbrothers, but somehow he is stopping his own disciples? That is really rich...

Satana Gosvami?

Srila Prabhupadas proxy initiation was meant for his manifest presence, as a logistic solution. After his tirobhava it becomes bogus (so far without pramana and precedence in genuine sampradayas).

Misraji, didnt we put this ritvik stuff on ice several times here? It refuses to disappear.

Yeah and he made this unusual innovation so confusing... did not put in his words and did not ensure it is implemented, did not mention it to his Godbrothers and gave the envious godbrothers an advantage to initiate while there is no diksa-gurus in ISKCON and never will be... does not make it for me, knowing how well he enshrined every single innovation he did.

Our dear Godbrother Sripad Giriraj Maharaj has expressed as few can how Srila Prabhupad'92s last moments on earth took place. Today I gave one lecture in San Jose, California. And, it came upon me how wondrous is the Acharya'92s love that he has left us so many writings and instructions. Even the newcomers today, some 32 years after Srila Prabhupad'92s passing, have so much attachment for Srila Prabhupad and his mission. This is a most wonderful possibility. Once in New Vrindaban in 1972, I was giving Srila Prabhupad his massage that day, and he asked me to shave his head. With electric rasor, I performed that service, being careful to preserve his sikha. Afterwards, the hair accumulated from that service was noted by some onlookers. Srila Prabhupad sat there observing. One godbrother asked: '93Aren'92t you going to save his hair?'94 Before Srila Prabhupad I said, '93No, I have the instructions in his books.'94 He looked at me gravely and without criticism.
Even to this day, and for many countless generations into the future, the instructions contained in his books will give seekers his divine association. To those who will study and propagate his teachings, you will undoubtedly have his divine association. This is our firm belief and experience. Srila Prabhupad has made it impossible for us to live without Krishna consciousness. Therein lies the great wonder of Srila Prabhupad'92s effect in our lives. And, we continue to pray for his mercy and blessings regularly. Hare Krishna.

Pusta Krishna das

"Initiation is a formality. If you are serious,that is real initiation. My touch is simply a formality...It is your determination,that is initiation."("The serch for the Divine",Back to Godhead#49)

>I am sorry that devamrita maharaja is unable to envoke much enthusiasm within myself and my godbrothers.
>.Are you part of devamritas vegan movment......?

Srigovinda prabhu, what is your problem with devamrita swami? Can you please stop this blasphamy?

I am indeed sorry for you Pandu das, his divine grace Srila Prabhupada has left his physical body ......he is our siksa guru now.Also you did not answer wether you intend to submit to the authority of ISKCON.....or just start a new society.Or like so many over the years just merge into the other impersonal ,anti-iskcon elements which seem at home in the usa.Gradually loosing taste before they commit more and more aparadhas..... surely that is the natural progression.Also your philosophical basis is wrong the archaryas for this line is in fact Rupa and Sanatana goswami Prabhupada...followed by the other goswamis sri bhatta raghunatha,Jiva,gopal bhatta and raghunatha das.

My dear dweller -in-peace.i am sorry to cause you pain however i personally have attempted to refrain from attacking his grace devamrita goswami.Please accept my humble obeisances ........but what have i said which is infact untrue or a slur?My friends and i have a certain responsibility to voice our opinions....this is our yatra ,the south pacific.....he is not placing his team under ISKCON financial control or are his devotees following the proper GURU siddhanta...All assets should be placed under the GBC AND ISKCON control.Which unless i am mistaken he is not doing presently.Also when his devotees mixed with us i was shocked to see that the devotees had never seen a video of srila Prabhupada.Even though they had been devotees for several years.....When they come to our temples they are just there to take! Are visibly not mingling ,they do not serve the senior devotees,So they appear to be badly trained apart from several book distributors who seem genuine.My dweller -in -peace why does the gaura yoga centre ban those iskcon devotees then who go to their centres.....they even ban women and chidren just because they are not going to accept devamrita maharaja as their diksa guru. Where was srila Prabhupada preaching that we should stop taking butter and ghee?And follow some mundane vegan fashions of the modes?Sorry but i know at least twenty devotees banned just because they are already initiated ...sorry what does this mean?

Nrisingha Prabhu....wonderful quote.....all glories to his divine grace srila Prabhupada

Sri Govinda Prabhu, imho you should report all this to the GBC Body.

[quote][cite] dweller-in-peace:[/cite]
Srigovinda prabhu, what is your problem with devamrita swami? Can you please stop this blasphamy?[/quote]

A lot of people have a problem with him, myself included. I knew him very well even 30 years ago. I could tell you all kinds of stories from the time he worked for Harikesa and later for Kirtanananda. Not many devotees who knew him then have a good opinion about him. I hope he has changed and matured since then, but I doubt it.

[quote][cite] Kula-pavana:[/cite]
Nobody stopped SP from initiating his own disciples, not even his supposedly envious Godbrothers, but somehow he is stopping his own disciples? [/quote]

Instead of making unrelated comparisons, why cant you just accept what Srila Prabhupada said he wanted for after his disappearnce? "I shall recommend some of you to act as Officiating-Acaryas... Rtvik. Yes." [br][br]

[quote][cite] VEDA:[/cite]
Srila Prabhupadas proxy initiation was meant for his manifest presence, as a logistic solution. After his tirobhava it becomes bogus (so far without pramana and precedence in genuine sampradayas).[br]

Misraji, didnt we put this ritvik stuff on ice several times here? It refuses to disappear.[/quote]

As I recall, last time we talked about this, you provided three statements from sastra trying to contradict Srila Prabhupadas order for tirobhava initiations; but two of them just made me wonder why you presented them, and the other was a one line anecdote you wanted to use to speculate on the existence of a rule and then speculate on the application of the rule. I find it noteworthy that when "because I said so" doesnt fly, the anti-rtviks always want to stop the discussion.[br][br]

[quote][cite] sri_govinda_das:[/cite]I am indeed sorry for you Pandu das, his divine grace Srila Prabhupada has left his physical body ......he is our siksa guru now.[/quote]

He seems to me more like a figurehead in ISKCON, the bait to get aspiring devotees on the hook.

[quote]Also you did not answer wether you intend to submit to the authority of ISKCON.....or just start a new society.[/quote]

I guess I didnt see that one. I dont claim to be an acarya. Im just trying to follow Srila Prabhupadas teachings as much as I am able. I tried submitting to ISKCONs authority, but have been discouraged by it too many times. Over the years Ive noticed that associating with ISKCON devotees has consistently drained my faith and enthusiasm, which improve when I am apart; but Im still trying to find what inspiration I can from ISKCON devotees while rejecting what is detrimental to my enthusiasm for Krishna consciousness. Im also getting some association from Srila Prabhupadas followers outside of ISKCON, which is really nice.

[quote][cite] Pandu das:[/cite][quote][cite] Kula-pavana:[/cite]
Nobody stopped SP from initiating his own disciples, not even his supposedly envious Godbrothers, but somehow he is stopping his own disciples? [/quote]

Instead of making unrelated comparisons, why cant you just accept what Srila Prabhupada said he wanted for after his disappearnce? "I shall recommend some of you to act as Officiating-Acaryas... Rtvik. Yes." [br][br]
[/quote]

I believe the comparison is very related. SP made a lot of statements regarding his disciples becoming gurus over the years, including those in his books, which - by his own standard - are far more relevant than anything he said in private conversations.

An acharya is not free to do whatever he likes - he follows in the footsteps of his spiritual master and previous acharyas. What was good enough for him is also good enough for his disciples.

I only blame our overemphasis on diksa in the fact that ritiks are trying to push for this post samadhi theory. Overemphasis on it is painful and will be painful. Someone give me a date when BSST got diksa? Or do we celebrate the date BVT got his diksa? Do you know who is the diksa guru of Krisna dasa Kaviraja Goswami?

[quote][cite] ccd:[/cite] Someone give me a date when BSST got diksa? Or do we celebrate the date BVT got his diksa? Do you know who is the diksa guru of Krisna dasa Kaviraja Goswami?[/quote]

But we will know for sure that for the next 10,000 years everyone will get their diksa from Srila Prabhupada! ;)

[quote][cite] ccd:[/cite]I only blame our overemphasis on diksa in the fact that ritiks are trying to push for this post samadhi theory.[/quote]

This may be true to some degree. Perhaps Srila Prabhpuada understood this tendency and ordered "Officiating-Acaryas... Rtvik. Yes." to help stop it. I agree that siksa is far more important, but what Ive found in ISKCON is that devotees primarily take the siksa of their diksa guru who sometimes preaches contrary to Srila Prabhupada. Thus we have devotees accepting instruction from gurus like Hrdayananda das Gosvami(?) who says Srila Prabhupada was sexist, racist, materially conditioned, and wrong on many subjects. He says we should not wear tilak, sikha, etc., and sets that example while he goes around getting his picture taken hugging young ladies. There are also disciples worshipping their guru Satsvarupa das Gosvami(?) who is a "retired sannyasi" after confessing to having obsessed lustfully over one of his female disciples for more than 2 decades and eventually trying to have sex with her.[br][br]

On one hand Im told we cant have tirobhava rtvik initiations because its not a part of our tradition (although no one has ever shown me where Srila Prabhupada said that), but on the other hand having a retired sannyasi guru is just fine. Folks cant just make up the rules as we go along and expect everyone to be ok with it!

>sri_govinda_das: I am indeed sorry for you Pandu das, his divine grace Srila Prabhupada has left his physical body .....

Why do you cling so much to physical body? So many of Srila Prabhupadas disciples never met him personally, many of them got initiation by a letter, some got initiation by a tape. Srila Prabhupada has inspired many more people to become devotees after leaving his physical body then when he was in physical body.

>ccd: Yeah and he made this unusual innovation so confusing.

Why would you blame Srila Prabhupada for this confusion. Recently, I read that there are many conversation tapes missing from the final days of Srila Prabhupadas lila where he might have elaborated much more on diksa system after his departure from this planet. So who has created confusion still remains a mystery.

>VEDA: Misraji, didnt we put this ritvik stuff on ice several times here? It refuses to disappear.

Why are you afraid to talk about it? The more you will avoid it, more it will haunt you.Because our leaders are trying to avoid it, it keeps haunting our society all the time. Better will be that all the parties talk about it in detail with full seriousness and be finished with it forever. imho, trying to avoid it, is wrong approach towards it.

[quote][cite] Pandu das:[/cite]
On one hand Im told we cant have tirobhava rtvik initiations because its not a part of our tradition (although no one has ever shown me where Srila Prabhupada said that), but on the other hand having a retired sannyasi guru is just fine. Folks cant just make up the rules as we go along and expect everyone to be ok with it![/quote]

One type of nonse (zonal acharya concoction and general misbehavior of people Srila Prabhupada put in charge) created a different type of nonsense (ritvikvada) as in action and reaction. Two wrongs do not make a right.

You are correct, concocting new rules which fly in the face of the laws of our sampradaya breeds protest from devotees who have not lost their sense. Hridayananda is a social activist, not a GV sannyasi, but that does not make the ritvikvada a solution.

[quote][cite] ccd:[/cite]I only blame our overemphasis on diksa in the fact that ritiks are trying to push for this post samadhi theory. Overemphasis on it is painful and will be painful. Someone give me a date when BSST got diksa? Or do we celebrate the date BVT got his diksa? Do you know who is the diksa guru of Krisna dasa Kaviraja Goswami?[/quote]

Such hypocrisy! Makes me sick!! :-/

.

I wonder if we even include those who were initiated by Siddhasvarupa as direct diksa disciples of Prabhupada. I find it is the other obvious route, make an exclusive circle based on diksa, in you joined in autumn of 1977 - bed luck... what to speak of 1978. But come on people, even when Prabhupada was here, you had to humbly serve his representatives, get trained by them, do menial service, accept instructions from them, be it your sankirtan leader or a TP. That was the way, only that the same people should have all be doing initiations (as a side effect). Not that now we have management authority and gurus in two different rooms, ridiculous. All Prabhupada disciples have the right to preach, make devotees, train them and (as a side effect of it) initiate.

> anti-rtviks always want to stop the discussion.

Theres no Vedic discussion without pramana. What you quote can be easier explained as the result of SPs mishearing, as I already mentioned.

> on the other hand having a retired sannyasi guru is just fine.

Says who? Its not fine but unfortunate. Yet still much better than to become an aparadhi by following ritvikism.

> Why are you afraid to talk about it?

Its the fear of aparadha by attributing the creation of apasampradaya to SP.

> our leaders are trying to avoid it

No, they are or should be done with it, as per GBC resolution.

> on the other hand having a retired sannyasi guru is just fine.
Says who? Its not fine but unfortunate. Yet still much better than to become an aparadhi by following ritvikism.
>Its the fear of aparadha by attributing the creation of apasampradaya to SP.

Retired sanyasi is modern equivalent of a Dari sanyasi ( mentioned in chaitanya charitamrita). Only difference is that a dari sanyasi does everything openly whereas retired sanyasi hides behind saffron robes and does his thing secretly. According to SP, dari sanyasi is apasampradaya. By creating this new category of retired sanyasi or dari sanyasi whatever you call it, ISKCON is already an apasampradaya and you and me, we all are part of it. So dont be too much afraid about the creation of apasampradaya. We already are an apasampradaya.

Dear ccd, the disciples were actually siddhaswarupas personal disciples ....not srila Prabhupadas.Your vedic assertion that the iskcon culture of morning classes ,mangal arti and evening program rightfully allows our A C Bhaktivedanta swami Prabhupada culture to spread ....and naturally nourish the newer devotees by humbly serving the older more devoted and hopefully sincere senior vaisnavas is crucial and extremely important..

[quote][cite] sri_govinda_das:[/cite]Dear ccd, the disciples were actually siddhaswarupas personal disciples ....not srila Prabhupadas.[/quote] I remember talking with Mahamaya when she was making the database, it was not that clearcut - there was a date put on it...

[quote][cite] VEDA:[/cite]> anti-rtviks always want to stop the discussion.

Theres no Vedic discussion without pramana. What you quote can be easier explained as the result of SPs mishearing, as I already mentioned.[/quote] I think that is the scariest part of the whole thing, we just forget that we should speek sastra and base everything on pramana. It really scares me the most about modern speakers and various oppinions and nonsense resolutions flying around. Really really scary, ritivikvada is just one of them.

The conclusion is that yes you need to take initiation, there is no need of formal diksa from Prabhupada to be his disciple.

However ritiviks are not disciples of Prabhupada. Nor are all people who took harinama-diksa from Prabhupada. Being trained by your guru is more important then diksa, but accepting a spiritual master is not a matter of an option. Just like being humble is not an option, but you can not force it on anyone. One need to be humble to accept a guru, and it is a training in humility "you are a fool". Not that you accept a guru who is great and the reason, well I have the greatest guru... lets put down anyone else.

HOW MUCH you actually accept a guru? How much you actually accept Prabhupada? Do you really...

[quote][cite] ccd:[/cite]All Prabhupada disciples have the right to preach, make devotees, train them and (as a side effect of it) initiate.[/quote]

So is this how the conversation went?[br][br]

Satsvarupa: ...Then our next question concerns initiations in the future, particularly at that time when youre no longer with us. We want to know how first and second initiation would be conducted.[br]
CCD: Yes. All my disciples have the right to preach, make devotees, train them and (as a side effect of it) initiate.[br][br]

I can go with the "CCD uvaca"version or with what Srila Prabhupada said, "I shall recommend some of you to act as Officiating-Acaryas... Rtvik. Yes." How to decide? I chant Hare Krishna not because of CCD uvaca, not Kula Pavana, not Veda uvaca, but because of Srila Prabhupada and only Srila Prabhupada. I think I know who to believe.[br][br]

Kula Pavana thinks Srila Prabhupadas answer was nonsense. Veda says Srila Prabhupadas answer is aparadha and wants me reported to the GBC and presumably banned from ISKCON for believing "Officiating Acaryas... Rtvik. Yes."[br][br]

CCD says diksa is not very important, but its apparently important enough that some ISKCON leaders and followers would rather I go away than accept Srila Prabhupadas version of tirobhava initiation via "Officiating Acaryas... Rtvik. Yes.," so that he can be my diksa guru. [br][br]

Im sorry to disappoint you guys, but I trust Srila Prabhupada and am not interested in your telling me what you think his limitations are, in contradiction with what he said. Hare Krishna.

[quote][cite] ccd:[/cite]However ritiviks are not disciples of Prabhupada. Nor are all people who took harinama-diksa from Prabhupada. Being trained by your guru is more important then diksa, but accepting a spiritual master is not a matter of an option. Just like being humble is not an option, but you can not force it on anyone. One need to be humble to accept a guru, and it is a training in humility "you are a fool". Not that you accept a guru who is great and the reason, well I have the greatest guru... lets put down anyone else.[/quote]

Youre a disciple of Srila Prabhupada, correct? How much did he train you?[br][br]

Although I had a harinam initiation ceremony with Bhaktimarga Swami, hes given me almost no training. When I asked him for tapes, books, etc., he said to just take what Srila Prabhupada has given. At that time, I was listening to Srila Prabhupadas lectures normally a few hours a day and still do. So when an ISKCON authority asks me who is my guru, what name should I give?

[quote][cite] Pandu das:[/cite][quote][cite] ccd:[/cite]So when an ISKCON authority asks me who is my guru, what name should I give?[/quote] I trust to become a disciple is a very very high qualification, I aspire for it. Actually you are not obliged to tell anyone who is your guru, but if someone asks you may as well tell the truth. I find that the only way I can become his disciple is by being a servant of his servant, I trust that would have been the situation if I joined in 75, 74, or 77. I am happy you realized that diksa is not very important, but it does not mean you should not take it. One also should not disrespect devotees, I guess that is the key. Ritiviks are very disrespectful of quite a few guys, while a viasnava will give respect even to an ant. I feel respect to all disciples and even apparent disciples of Prabhupada, I particularly like devotees he himself trusted, while I know everyone has his or her limitations. I guess your limitation is that diksa was not important for you, but became important? Or is it you want to be a direct disciple?

[quote][cite] Pandu das:[/cite]
Kula Pavana thinks Srila Prabhupadas answer was nonsense. [/quote]

No, I think the ritvik understanding of that answer is nonsense.

How can the ritvik vada exist and be taken seriously when i have not met any ritviks in the last 30 years of my devotional service,except Pandu das....CCD hit on it these poor souls are existing outside the mercy of srila PRABHUPADA...They want sadly to be envious of srila Prabhupadas disciples who are in fact worshipable for myself....They are crooked in their sad vision because they are meant to be crushed by mayadevi whose duty it is to purify this movement.Hence will suffer the lack of genuine devotee association and gradually fade away like the haribols.We are meant to follow the morning programs,mangal arti,guru puja bhagavatam class ect...this rtvik apa-sampradaya is just nonsense and would get ripped apart if you had good a devotees around....however these poor souls have commited offence to their gurus and will pay severely.....May my siksa gurus allow these sad devotees to be allowed to be rectified from their offences and envy.....your servant sri govinda das

This is extremely arrogant and foolish on their behalf because i have met most of the senior devotees in our movement not one was a ritvik-deviant.So how envious and pathetic.....all the sankirtan devotees i was trained up by not one had even heard such nonsense....must indeed be from the USA.....Concot-it -if they -can -desh.....out of pure envy.....i predict it with dissolve after the few envious godbrothers have departed.....like the other cults.Srila PRABHUPADA only produced fools who were unable to understand any thing he said,according to this understanding and Pandus offensive veiw.......arrogance at its sad pathetic worse.

>How can the ritvik vada exist and be taken seriously when i have not met any ritviks in the last 30 years of my devotional service,except Pandu das....

You seem to be a serious devotee and Krsna fullfils all the desires of his devotees. Soon you might have a ritvik temple in your country, its spreading really fast at least in India and US.

So they attempt to step on their heads,the authentic Prabhupada disciples.....to take their position artificially without any devotional credit..like theives in the night.

>So they attempt to step on their heads,the authentic Prabhupada disciples.....to take their position artificially without any devotional credit..like theives in the night.

Just wait a little more and see, they might take not only the position but may be all the ISKCON might become ritvik.

>How can the ritvik vada exist and be taken seriously when i have not met any ritviks in the last 30 years of my devotional service,except Pandu das....CCD hit on >it these poor souls are existing outside the mercy of srila PRABHUPADA...They want sadly to be envious of srila Prabhupadas disciples who are in fact worshipable >for myself....They are crooked in their sad vision because they are meant to be crushed by mayadevi whose duty it is to purify this movement.Hence will suffer the >lack of genuine devotee association and gradually fade away like the haribols.We are meant to follow the morning programs,mangal arti,guru puja bhagavatam class >ect...this rtvik apa-sampradaya is just nonsense and would get ripped apart if you had good a devotees around....however these poor souls have commited offence >to their gurus and will pay severely.....May my siksa gurus allow these sad devotees to be allowed to be rectified from their offences and envy.....your servant sri >govinda das

>This is extremely arrogant and foolish on their behalf because i have met most of the senior devotees in our movement not one was a ritvik-deviant.So how envious >and pathetic.....all the sankirtan devotees i was trained up by not one had even heard such nonsense....must indeed be from the USA.....Concot-it -if they -can >-desh.....out of pure envy.....i predict it with dissolve after the few envious godbrothers have departed.....like the other cults.Srila PRABHUPADA only produced fools >who were unable to understand any thing he said,according to this understanding and Pandus offensive veiw.......arrogance at its sad pathetic worse.

sri_govinda_prabhu, it means that the seed of ritvikism has been planted in your heart and you are initiated into ritvikism. Ritviks are cruel, they will tell you all the naked truth, will cut all the crap without any kind of anesthesia, so in the beginning people scream, but this all settles down in due course of time. Just make sure that sravanam and kirtanam is going on nicely and Lord Paramatma will guide you from within the heart.

With best wishes for your spiritual life.

>Only some 40% of gbc really wants it, you need to wait +=)

sri_govinda_prabhu, did you read the statistics, 40% gbc want it, this is way beyond what I expected and you never heard about it in your 30 years, thats real ignorance, :-)

>all the sankirtan devotees i was trained up by not one had even heard such nonsense....must indeed be from the USA....

You are right, ISKCON runs from USA not from NZ.

[quote][cite] Kula-pavana:[/cite][quote][cite] Pandu das:[/cite]
Kula Pavana thinks Srila Prabhupadas answer was nonsense. [/quote]

No, I think the ritvik understanding of that answer is nonsense.[/quote]

The rtvik understanding of "PRABHUPADA: Rtvik. Yes."???

[quote][cite] ccd:[/cite][quote][cite] Pandu das:[/cite]So when an ISKCON authority asks me who is my guru, what name should I give?[/quote] I trust to become a disciple is a very very high qualification, I aspire for it. Actually you are not obliged to tell anyone who is your guru, but if someone asks you may as well tell the truth. I find that the only way I can become his disciple is by being a servant of his servant, I trust that would have been the situation if I joined in 75, 74, or 77. I am happy you realized that diksa is not very important, but it does not mean you should not take it. One also should not disrespect devotees, I guess that is the key. Ritiviks are very disrespectful of quite a few guys, while a viasnava will give respect even to an ant. I feel respect to all disciples and even apparent disciples of Prabhupada, I particularly like devotees he himself trusted, while I know everyone has his or her limitations. I guess your limitation is that diksa was not important for you, but became important? Or is it you want to be a direct disciple?[/quote]

Yes, servant of his servant, but when its on tape that he ordered "Rtvik. Yes." are those who reject it his servants? I would say perhaps in other ways, like if theyre chanting Hare Krishna, but this matter needs to be set straight.[br][br]

I do want to take diksa, but I think my supposed harinam initiation was a mistake. I was trying hard to do everything right, but not finding much pleasure in chanting Hare Krishna, not like I know is there. I thought maybe its because I needed initiation, and some disciples of Srila Prabhupada whom I was associating with (a husband and wife) told me that it didnt really matter who gave me initiation. Perhaps I should have considered that they werent following strictly, for example eating yogurt with gelatin and drinking coffee, but I followed their advice. However, my initiation didnt help at all. About a year later, my guru severely disappointed me, leaving me very depressed and discouraged. After I recovered (two years later) I tried accepting him again, but he still could not inspire me. Then I was witness to a debate for-and-against the rtvik view, and thought the rtviks did better than their opponents. Still I reserved judgement, but another year later I heard my local GBC speaking on behalf of the NA GBC say twice that the rtviks were "enemies of ISKCON," and I decided I could not accept someone as my enemy unless I understood their position. So I read up on the issue and found that their arguments were very strong. [br][br]

I try not to disrespect devotees, but mostly I want Srila Prabhupadas teachings and orders to be upheld. When we have gurus acting contrary to Srila Prabhupadas teachings, even criticizing him, then devotees have to speak up. I may have to suffer for finding fault with devotees, but for serving Srila Prabhupada by helping to preserve his instructions, its worth it. There is already a conflict and I want to be on Srila Prabhupadas side. I know Im not a great follower, but at least I want his teachings preserved, and it looks to me that a lot of those who are posing as gurus are setting a bad example. I agree to respect an ant, but if an ant were preaching that (for example) devotees should not wear tilak, then I would have to argue. It doesnt mean I dont respect devotees. You and I argue a lot, but if we met I would be delighted to take the dust of you feet on my head and offer you some menial service; but still I would argue on this topic because I cant just accept something when I believe something else.[br][br]

The reason I want to be initiated by Srila Prabhupada is because he is the only one (besides Krishna) who attracted me to aspiring for Krishna consciousness, he is the only one who keeps me attracted, and I believe that he wanted to continue giving initiations. Therefore it is natural for me to want him as my guru, not a substitute whom I do not feel connected, and I consider it a service to him.

My dear Pandu das,initiation is an encouragment given out of love and duty to one whom the diksa guru finds as competent to asist him in pleasing his guru,which is Srila Prabhupada..Obviously you two have failed to develop a sustainable relationship.So find a siksa guru ,but you must submit to his mood and superior understandings...Therefore by Qualification ,mood and ability he should indeed be superior to allow you to submit.However it seems from your correspondence you are similiar to a old freind of mine.Who took twenty years to eventually take shelter of his grace Mahavishnu swami,after failing to take shelter of srila Prabhupada when he was personally present.Can you imagine how foolish he was to be unable to see his divine grace in the proper light when he was personally in front of him?
Such is the strength of mayadevi and her energys.He however committed offenses due to hidden desires which dictated to his mind that he was more advanced than his guru.Now he sadly is an offender within the gaudiya matha,who is still very disturbed. Who recently commented to me that his guru was the best of a bad bunch .He in essence is sadly puffed up,though a freind he sadly lacks any form of sincerity and genuine humility.....he went to seed,now he is useless and should be avioded .
But that is the result of guru aparadha......which is how your situation appears to me personally....obviously you are disappionted however he has already blessed you and you accepted his shelter.The onus is infact on you to ask seek his mercy to some degree,otherwise you will sadly fail to progress significantly.Such is the nature of guru aparadhas and your inability to genuinely serve humbly without any ulterior motive or personal interest.....hopefully i am wrong Pandu das but your symptoms are very similiar.....by the way noW he openly criticises Iskcon and his previous SENIOR devotees who gave him shelter for thirty odd years.

>So find a siksa guru ,but you must submit to his mood and superior understandings...

Its already found i.e. Srila Prabhupada. Whats wrong with Srila Prabhupada? Why do you think SP is dead and one can not have a relationship with him? If your feelings, your juices dont flow towards Srila Prabhupada(maybe they flow towards someone else, no problem with that), why would you make a yardstick of your experience and measure all other devotees with that?

> By creating this new category of retired sanyasi or dari sanyasi whatever you call it, ISKCON is already an apasampradaya and you and me, we all are part of it. So dont be too much afraid about the creation of apasampradaya. We already are an apasampradaya.

This comparison is far-fetched. Who are and where are kept these women of our retired sannyasis? So far Ive heard here only of emotional falldowns (SDG) and embracing ladies (HDG).
Your logic is false. Two wrongs are definitely worse than one.
Wed be apasampradaya if this would be officially allowed. But it isnt.

> You seem to be a serious devotee and Krsna fullfils all the desires of his devotees. Soon you might have a ritvik temple in your country, its spreading really fast at least in India and US.

Interestingly, not in Europe, afaik. Are Europeans more intelligent? We have one active guy in CZ (a Krsnakant-vadi; we dont have other groups here so far) and hes a sorry character and a laughinstock for those who remember him from ISKCON. Hes very much like a Jehovas Witness. One devotee aptly called him and his handful of aides Prabhupadas Witnesses. The proverbial wolves in sheeps clothing.

> Why do you think SP is dead and one can not have a relationship with him?

SP is not dead, this is another favorite ritvik misintepretation. Hes aprakata, unmanifest to us, so the relationship can be thru siksa. Diksa is bogus in this case. Is it too difficult to grasp...?

> Veda says Srila Prabhupadas answer is aparadha and wants me reported to the GBC and presumably banned from ISKCON for believing "Officiating Acaryas... Rtvik. Yes."

Again youre misinterpreting me. I said Prabhupadas answer is most probably the result of mishearing. Did it occur to you?
Otherwise hed refute all his previous teachings. Clear?
The rest is your speculation, I never suggested that. You may believe whatever out of context stuff you love but dont call it Vaisnava siddhanta and dont ascribe it to Prabhupada.

> Although I had a harinam initiation ceremony with Bhaktimarga Swami, hes given me almost no training.

You didnt insist on it enough. Its his duty. Lectures are the minimum and you could get them from his other disciples.

> So I read up on the issue and found that their arguments were very strong.

So why you didnt present them so far? Beats me.

> There is already a conflict and I want to be on Srila Prabhupadas side. I know Im not a great follower, but at least I want his teachings preserved,

Youre against him without your realizing it. Quote from his teachings and prove ritvikism if you can. So far you didnt so you probably cant.

Your reasoning is about fallen and insufficiently acting gurus like yours, as if this is the reason to embrace apasiddhanta. No logic whatsoever.

Sri Govinda Prabhu, this is a very illustrative case. Thanks. Whoever has ears to listen...

[quote][cite] VEDA:[/cite]

> Although I had a harinam initiation ceremony with Bhaktimarga Swami, hes given me almost no training. [br]

>You didnt insist on it enough. Its his duty. Lectures are the minimum and you could get them from his other disciples.
[/quote]

I do not think you know Bhaktimarga swami well enough to know that for sure do you Veda? Pandu prabhus is a personal case, I trust he is sincere, I trust he wants to be a Prabhupada man. But it is wrong to reject a guru or step over his head to do that. In fact even when Prabhupada was physically present, you would not normally approach him directly, but through the leaders he had. Prabhupada was very merciful to his leaders, for example when Brahmananda Swami had a fall in 1976 he forgave him, and let him remain a retired sannyasi, actually just a sannyasi, but he was not involved in top level management after that. He had a forgiving nature, I am sure Bhaktimarga Swami has a forgiving nature too, I do not even think that he rejects you. You just have to be grateful to him, and yes establish your relationship with Prabhupada. Just stop putting down everyone and everything if it is not your position to do it, and please understand that there is more to the eye then just your own interpretation of Prabhupadas words, there is a whole history of diksa since BSST disappearance, that is something Prabhupada was addressing. He wanted it to be up to Krishna, but without appointing one successor, he clearly wanted all his disciples to become gurus and initiate. ysccd

>by the way noW he openly criticises Iskcon and his previous SENIOR devotees who gave him shelter for thirty odd years.
>Who recently commented to me that his guru was the best of a bad bunch

sri_govind_prabhu, a while ago, you were criticising Devamrita Swami and now you are demonizing this poor guy, who is not here even to defend himself, cant even say one word to clarify his position. We dont know the full story of this devotee, we know only your version. Even the karmi courts, give a fair trial to criminals and they are allowed to say something in their defense. But in this case, there is nothing like that.

>Are Europeans more intelligent?

Definitely intelligent. But better to be wise then intelligent:-)

>Wed be apasampradaya if this would be officially allowed. But it isnt.

If retired sannyasa is not officially allowing this then what it is? Kindly provide your definition of retired sanyasa and its purpose.

> I do not think you know Bhaktimarga swami well enough to know that for sure do you Veda?

I dont know him at all, just reacting on what is written here.

Retired sannyasi is explained above (the case of Brahmananda Swami). I havent seen such definition in sastra.

>One devotee aptly called him and his handful of aides Prabhupadas Witnesses. The proverbial wolves in sheeps clothing.

I really dont understand what makes you think that you are more dear to Srila Prabhupada then these devotees.

GBC had invented the retired sannyasi phrase. It is clearly a mistake, Prabhupada had a number of sannyasi disciples who could not maintain the vows, it is ironic that they invented it for the one who could and would even in the face of three seduction attempts by a female therapist, and later blackmail forcing him to get married, because of the emotional attachment. Prabhupada at no point rejected a sannyasi who had a fall down. In his practical dealings he knew well how hard it is for a Westerner to be a sannyasi, he kept Brahmananda Swami when he had an actual (not subtle) fall with a girl. In fact Prabhupada knew a lot more then you think about his disciples and kept encouraging them in their spiritual life. In the end he actually stopped giving sannyas, I am yet to get a confirmation on that, but clearly since end of 1976 he did not want it anymore for devotees to take. He even mentions it in his morning walk in 1977.

Difficulty is that we do not understand the sanskrit roots of things and we do not understand the context of what Prabhupada was doing, we argue about words. It is superficial unless you know the context.

For example from this morning walk when the issue of the fall of the sannyasi comes:

Prabhupada: Yes. This is not prayascitta. This is exemplary punishment. He was not liable to be punished, but they played that "This is the.... This should be done."
Guru-krpa: He did not kill himself immediately. He waited for a year.
Prabhupada: He was waiting if Caitanya Mahaprabhu would accept him again. But when he saw that Caitanya Mahaprabhu is not so lenient, he committed suicide. Vajrad api katora. Harder than the thunderbolt and softer than the rose. This is the position.
Tamala Krsna: But, Prabhupada, if you were as strict as.... If you were that strict...
Prabhupada: No, I am not Caitanya Prabhu. I am not.... Why you are comparing me? I am an ordinary man.
Guru-krpa: So in ISKCON, if someone falls down, it means that he should commit suicide?
Prabhupada: No.
Gurudasa: We wouldnt have much of a movement, then.
Pusta Krsna: Were too attached to our bodies anyway, Srila Prabhupada.

Tamal challenges Prabhupada "But, Prabhupada, if you were as strict as.... If you were that strict." -- he clearly refers to quite a few instances where Prabhupada was not strict. The fact is that Prabhupada is magnanimous to the highest degree.

But then Prabhupada makes sure his disciples WILL not fall:

Guru-krpa: So in ISKCON, if someone falls down, it means that he should commit suicide?
Prabhupada: No.
Gurudasa: We wouldnt have much of a movement, then.
Pusta Krsna: Were too attached to our bodies anyway, Srila Prabhupada.
Prabhupada: No, no, if he falls down, that is automatically suicide. If he falls down, that means it is suicide. He got the chance. If he falls down, that is suicide.
Guru-krpa: Spiritual suicide.
Prabhupada: Spiritual suicide. If one gets the chance of becoming eligible for going back to home, back to Godhead, and if he commits mistake and it is stopped, is it not suicide?
Guru-krpa: You once gave the example, Srila Prabhupada, of taking your plane off the ground and then bringing it back to land again.
Prabhupada: Eh?
Guru-krpa: You once gave the example that you take your plane to a destination, and you have to turn around and come back and start all over again, take off again.
Prabhupada: There are so many. Drdha-vrata. Bhajante mam drdha-vrata. So we should be very strong-minded and continue our devotional service very strongly.

Again you should take in a context. Some suggest that Visnujana Swami was referring to his own fall in this conversation. These are his last words to Prabhupada... but it is MUCH more likely that he wanted to know what was prabhupada thinking about RDTSKP methods of making brahmacaris join. It was one of them - tell brahmacaris that if you talk to matajis because they live in the temple, they are pouring water on their devotional cripper. Why was it relevant to Visnujana Swami? Well it was very relevant, because he trusted TKGs methods of getting more man for some year, and now he had a huge rebellion on his hands. He was faced with ALL temple presidents demanding that they stop his party. TKG was sent to China... and Visnujana Swami was... nobody knows that bit.

No ccd is not Prabhupada diksa disciple. He was age 7 when SP left the planet!
Ysvt.

[quote][cite] Nrsingha:[/cite] He was age 7 when SP left the planet!
Ysvt.[/quote] You are not saying it is against the sastra to take sannyas at the age of seven? But you seem to put down a grand-disciple of Prabhupada, well.. Do you think direct sannyas disciples of BSST are better then those who took sannyas from his followers? Lets look at the beginning of the same conversation (last words of Visnujana) of march 11, 1976 below: [ edited ]

Now if you look at the start of the conversation about it you will see:

Visnujana: Srila Prabhupada, how did Chota Haridasa achieve perfection by killing himself after apparently pouring water on his devotional creeper by talking to a woman?

Prabhupada: His instance was that even an associate of Caitanya Mahaprabhu can fall down. And if one falls down, his punishment is that, suicide. There is no other punishment. He must commit suicide. This is Caitanya Mahaprabhus instruc.... Otherwise he is Caitanya Mahaprabhus personal servant. He cannot fall down. But Caitanya Mahaprabhu showed this instance that "Even one is My personal servant, he can fall down." And if anyone by any cause he falls down, his punishment is he must commit suicide. This is instruction.

Tamala Krsna: Very strict.

Prabhupada: Oh, yes. "You have fallen down? You must commit suicide. No more My association."

You can take the words of srila prabhupada out of context. And people do, but they do not represent Prabhupada. It seems that dear sri_govinda_das did just that and took it out of context and without understanding the conclusion. It sounded that Prabhupada wanted Visnujana to commit suicide, but clearly he did not... what sort of disciple of Prabhupada would suggest such a thing?

> I really dont understand what makes you think that you are more dear to Srila Prabhupada then these devotees.

If Im dear to him or not is not the topic here (red herring).

Prabhupada hated criticism of Vaisnavas, even of the neophyte ones. But denigration is the main preaching tactic of ritviks.

pUrvaM kRtvA tu sammAnam
avajJAM kurute tu yaH
vaiSNavAnAM mahI-pAla
sAnvayo yAti saGkSayam

"O ruler of the world, one who first respects a Vaishnava and then later insults him is vanquished along with his family." (Skanda Purana)

"Actually," Prabhupada said, "this is a fact. One has to be blessed by a devotee to become a devotee. And he who is the servant of the servant of the servant'97one hundred times removed'97is not worse than one who directly serves the guru. If one thinks, Because I am direct servant, I am better than others, then he is not a Vaisnava. To offer ones respects to Guru and not to his disciples, this is wrong. This is not Vaisnava. One has to be humble and try to serve all Vaisnavas'97not some and not others." (Hari Sauri Dasa, A Transcendental Diary 1 - November 1975 - April 1976. TD 1-9: Sri Dhama Mayapur. January 28th, 1976.)

"Initiation is a formality. If you are serious,that is real initiation. My touch is simply a formality...It is your determination,that is initiation."

(" Search for the Divine",Back to Godhead#49)

!

No ccd,I was glorifying ur own spiritual master,SDG.

Ysvt.

While initiation is a formality, surrender, determination to do devotional service even if in difficulty and humility to do so without expectation of honor is important. It is exactly the fact that it is a position to be directly initiated by Prabhupada in ISKCON that makes ritivik argument strong. There is no position in being directly initiated by SP, it is a demanding qualification. If you are up to it you can meet that qualification, and humility in accepting diksa from his follower is one of the elements of establishing that relationship.

thank you Nrsimha about your kind words about my initiating guru, you were always kind to him. I do find that my best and most solid realizations about Srila Prabhupada are due to his books and association. I honestly did not have it before meeting him, in my own gbc zone they would discourage every personal touch with Srila Prabhupada for some reason, it was some other pada who was the center. But Prabhupada should be the center of our lives, can you do it without constantly putting down devotees he personally trained? That is probably the qualification I need to become his disciple in a proper sense of this word.

"can you do it without constantly putting down devotees he personally trained"

u mean like putting down BVS. ;-)

The acarya'92s words can stand on their own, due to their spiritual advancement. Bhaktivinoda Thakur has some good quotes from Sri Tattra Sutram. He states:

"Spiritual ordinances are intended for the regulation of the ignorant human beings whereas those who are endowed with discretion and divine wisdom are not controlled by them'85since knowledge itself is the root of the scriptures the one who has attained that self-evident knowledge will not be ruled by the scriptures, but they guide him with advices. In case of ignorant people, this is not so. They must be governed by the rules of the scriptures for their upliftment'85

Devotees of the supreme Lord are not controlled by the scriptures since their activities are congenial to the divine wisdom'85Therefore, when the self realized devotees ordain any new arrangement, they should be agreed with as a religious code, even if such new arrangements are not found in the spiritual dictums of the previous sages." (191-204)

I actually mean devotees who were actually trained by Prabhupada. I find that many devotees they try to somehow project the image that they know what Prabhupada said or did/ but actually seriously distort the presentation. I find it the worst and most gregarious offense against Prabhupada. We are completely dependent on devotees in how we related to Prabhupada, we are completely formed by association. If someone has an agenda (usually from the training outside of ISKCON, as the case be by training to Gaudiya math standards or some other impersonalists sadhus training) and is using a position of being a direct disciple (even if he or she met Prabhupada like two times and never spoke with him) or becoming a sannyasi to push that agenda, it is something I am weary about. On the opposite spectrum are the devotees like Tivikrama Swami or Kavicandra Maharaja, who would have an honest desire to represent Prabhupada as he is and as he was. I really admire it.

>]The acarya'92s words can stand on their own, due to their spiritual advancement. Bhaktivinoda Thakur has some good quotes from Sri Tattra Sutram. He states:) --->

I find it amusing how far it goes, ironic. You are quoting words of an acharya to confirm that that because Prabhupada is an acharya he is not representing scriptures.

In doing this you think 1) That Bhaktivinoda quotes some sastra 2) You think that he is doing to confirm that scripture is inferior to the words of an acharya.

This completely false, while I blame it on the cut and paste.

The fact is that Bhaktivinda Thakura himself WROTE the Sri Tattva Surtas. Someone else made a long hand english interpretation of it and you quoted it as if it not words of Bhaktivinoda Thakura.

In doing so you also misses the point of what Srila Thakura Bhaktivinoda is saying and why he is saying it; lets look at the actual quote:

39 sastramaksamesu valiyo vivekinam naitattanmula prapteh

Rules and regulations are for regulating the ignorant conditioned souls; those who have attained their constitutional awareness are not limited by such conditions.

43. bhakteyna sastram tadvidherjnanavirodhitvat

Unnalloyed devotees of Sri Krsna are not to be limited by the conditions of scriptural rules because their activities are based on spontaneous attachment which is transcendental to rules and regulations.

In doing that you suggest that we MUST move past rules and regulations and introduce every single neophyte to the level of spontaneous devotion, bypassing all the key angas of that process as outlined by Sri Rupa Goswami in BRS, However that is contrary to both the mood of Prabhupada, his emphasis and contrary to the logic of the sutra, that simply states that a paramahamsa vaisnava is not bound by the rules of the scriptures. We know that, but he would not tell us not to follow the sastra as we are not at that level.

Now I do not want to be argumentative, but you (or your cut and paste guru) is obviously mistaken to use this quote in this context. In fact the sutra according to his own explanation is about not following rules of Varnasrama dharma for a Vaisnava who is above it.
See a bit more of TS with commentary:

bhakte na sastram tad-vidher jnanavirodhitvat

bhakte-for a devotee of the Lord; na-not; sastram-scripture; tad-vidheh-of those rules; jnana-transcendental knowledge; avirodhitvat-because of not contradicting.

The rules of these scriptures do not apply to a devotee of the Lord, for an enlightened devotee never acts against the spiritual truth.

Commentary by Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura

After explaining that they who are enlightened with transcendental knowledge are free from the rules of scripture, the author of the sutras now affirms that the devotees are especially free from these rules. The duties and prohibitions of scripture do not apply to a person who is pure in heart, renounced, filled with transcendental knowledge and engaged in devotional service. This is so because the devotees intent engagement in devotional service to the Supreme Personality of Godhead does not in any way oppose the rules and regulations ordained by the scriptures. Here is the meaning: One attains the highest goal of life by following the rules and regulations of devotional service, not by following the rules and regulations of ordinary, non-devotional, materialistic piety. In the Sruti-sastra it is said:

kim aham punyam nakaravam kim aham papam akaravam tatra kah sosakah ko mohah

" `Why should I not perform pious deeds? Why should I sin? For one who thinks in this way where is calamity? Where is illusion?"

In Bhagavad-gita (2.52), the Supreme Personality of Godhead explains:

yada te moha-kalilam
buddhir vyatitarisyati
tada gantasi nirvedam
srotavyasya srutasya ca

"When your intelligence has passed out of the dense forest of delusion, you shall become indifferent to all that has been heard and all that is to be heard."*

In the Bhakti-rasamrta-sindhu (1.2.292-293) it is said:

natra sastram na yuktim ca
tal-lobhotpatti-laksanam
vaidha-bhakty-adhikari tu
bhavavirbhavanavadhi

atra sastram tatha tarkam
anukulam apeksate

"Therefore, in the beginning, everyone should strictly follow the regulative principles of devotional service, according to the injunctions of the scriptures and the spiritual master. Only after the stage of liberation from material contamination can one actually aspire to follow in the footsteps of the devotees in Vrndavana."*

Here is the context of the cut/paste in full;

) '97 In reply to Deenanatha das, he has stated, '93The Arcarya'92s words are to be used as supporting material and not as the sole basis of for an argument.'94 This is not always the case. The acarya'92s words can stand on their own, due to their spiritual advancement. Bhaktivinoda Thakur has some good quotes from Sri Tattra Sutram. He states:

"Spiritual ordinances are intended for the regulation of the ignorant human beings whereas those who are endowed with discretion and divine wisdom are not controlled by them'85since knowledge itself is the root of the scriptures the one who has attained that self-evident knowledge will not be ruled by the scriptures, but they guide him with advices. In case of ignorant people, this is not so. They must be governed by the rules of the scriptures for their upliftment'85

Devotees of the supreme Lord are not controlled by the scriptures since their activities are congenial to the divine wisdom'85Therefore, when the self realized devotees ordain any new arrangement, they should be agreed with as a religious code, even if such new arrangements are not found in the spiritual dictums of the previous sages." (191-204)

Prayagtirtha das, in is article "Mayavada Leanings", says that '93We should regard what is written in Prabhupada'92s books as primary evidence, as letters and conversations are all subject to time, place, and circumstance'94. In the past, the Neo-Gaudiyas said the letters that Srila Prabhupada wrote to the devotees are time, place and circumstance evidence and full of relative statements and should not be used as primary evidence. So the letters are taboo. But that wasn'92t good enough for them. Now it'92s the conversations of Prabhupada that are taboo. So what'92s next? In the 1980'92s, some devotees thought that if one removes Srila Prabhupada'92s letters from being a basis for evidence, then they can limit other devotees access to a lot of Prabhupada'92s quotes. Now it has taken a new turn! Now the conversations of Srila Prabhupada, loaded with jewels of knowledge, are off limits as evidence. Next certain books will be off limits, namely those books printed that are conversations or letters given by Prabhupada.

Remember that these are the same Neo-Gaudiyas who wanted statements in Srila Prabhupada'92s books removed that criticized his godbrothers. They have a hard time making a distinction about instructions that are given to a certain devotee and words that are for the benefit of all the devotees. Both ideas are contained within his written letters. It takes a certain amount of grey matter in the brain to make a distinction about what is an instruction for a single devotee and what is wisdom for all. Do the Neo-Gaudiyas really think that Srila Prabhupada didn'92t know that the letters were being archived and would be available for all to read in the future? For them to think that Prabhupada'92s letters are only full of relative statements is throwing the baby out with the bath water. Simply for them to whitewash all the points Srila Prabhupada made in his letters, and now in his conversations, is too much to tolerate. Especially when many of the same points made in the letters are given in his lectures and books.

[quote][cite] Pandu das:[/cite][quote][cite] Kula-pavana:[/cite][quote][cite] Pandu das:[/cite]
Kula Pavana thinks Srila Prabhupadas answer was nonsense. [/quote]

No, I think the ritvik understanding of that answer is nonsense.[/quote]

The rtvik understanding of "PRABHUPADA: Rtvik. Yes."???[/quote]

Prabhupada wanted his disciples to become regular gurus - he said so many times in his books and letters. He never had any intention of subverting the law of the disciplic succession which worked for him when he became a guru. Thus the word ritvik supplied here by Satsvarupa must be understod in this context. When a guru departs, his disciples are free to take on their own disciples - anything else is nonsense, be it the system ritviks promote or the bogus guru approval process promoted by GBC.

[quote][cite] sri_govinda_das:[/cite]My dear Pandu das,initiation is an encouragment...[/quote]Sri Govinda Prabhu,

A little less than two years after I started chanting Hare Krishna, I moved to New Vrindavana with my wife and our baby. It was 1997. All I knew about the Hare Krishna movement was what I had read in Srila Prabhupadas books, which of course did not include anything after 1977. I saw in the back of Bhagavad-gita that it was listed as a farm community, and I wanted to live in a Hare Krishna farm community. When I got there, the temple president asked me what I planned to do. I replied that I wanted to chant Hare Krishna and do farm work. He laughed and said I could work at the potpourri pie factory. I went there and discovered that it was not a devotee-owned business. It was lunchtime, and half the workers were smoking cigarettes and eating meat. It was not what I came there to do, so I ended up being a maintenance man for the temple community. There was no opportunity for farming.[br][br]
If I understand it correctly, I got there the day Tapah Punja got out of jail for his participation in Sulocanas murder. I heard him talking about it, but didnt understand what that was about. I figured he was just a guy who learned about the Hare Krishna movement in jail, and I was a little confused to realize that he was a sannyasi (but he got married to our neighbor shortly thereafter). I happened to meet some devotees, ex-gurukulis, etc., who were somewhat forthcoming about what the community had been through. From them I heard about multiple murders (one ex-gurukuli was still quite upset about the murder of one of his friends), rape of women and children, prostitution, drug dealing, fraud, etc. It seemed like there was no criminal activity that did not go on there. I learned that the whole NV community had been excommunicated from ISKCON, upon hearing the news when they were readmitted.[br][br]
I also had my own bad experiences. My daughters first word was "cockroach," because the apartment was so infested. We would see hundreds every day. Our toothbrushes were kept in a basket hanging from a string attached to the ceiling in order to keep the roaches off them. We couldnt have second pieces of our kids first birthday cake because it was swarmed with roaches within 10 minutes after it was cut, even though I tried to put it in a safe place. We had problems with the temple management. The apartment rent had tripled the previous year, but it was hard to earn money to pay for it because no one wanted to pay for any service. Once I did a job for the temple that took a week, and to finish it I just needed to apply a little paint, ten minutes of work. The color I needed was locked in a room that I couldnt access, and I couldnt pay my rent because I they wouldnt pay me anything because the job wasnt done. The same guy who needed to arrange for the room to be unlocked wouldnt pay me the money I needed to give back to him, but was instead berating me for not having my rent money. I did not go there to be distrusted. My wife began to get disillusioned before me, and several devotees told me that I should leave her and join the bhakta program. Finally we got so freaked out by this place that we left in a hurry one night.[br][br]
Our parents had been worried before we moved there, think this might be a bad cult, and I was embarrasses to have to admit they were right. Of course there are more stories to tell, but that was my first impression of living with devotees. There were also many good times, but overall the place did not seem safe, either materially or spiritually. It was hard to recover from the experience. If the community had been more like what I expected based on studying Srila Prabhupadas books, Im sure things would have turned out better. Instead devotees had been fooled into thinking one of the rtviks Srila Prabhupada appointed was actually a guru and a pure devotee, when in fact many of his activities suggest he was quite deranged. After he got arrested, some of his chief followers inherited a large chunk of ISKCON. One of them is our local GBC. How can I possibly surrender to these people, or even think that would be a good thing?

[quote][cite] VEDA:[/cite]>
Prabhupada hated criticism of Vaisnavas, even of the neophyte ones. But denigration is the main preaching tactic of ritviks.
[/quote]

Over 500 devotee children sued ISKCON because of having to endure horrific molestations, beatings, and torture at the hands of ISKCON leaders. Are these leaders and those who have supported them what you call Vaisnavas? [br][br]

[quote][cite] Srila Prabhupada:[/cite] "Unfortunately, when the acarya disappears, rogues and non-devotees take advantage and immediately begin to introduce unauthorized principles in the name of so-called svamis, yogis, philanthropists, welfare workers and so on. ['85] The acarya, the authorized representative of the Supreme Lord, establishes these principles, but when he disappears, things once again become disordered. The perfect disciples of the acarya try to relieve the situation by sincerely following the instructions of the spiritual master." [br]
(Srimad-Bhagavatam, 4.28.48, purport)[br][br]

"Our business is to point out who is not a saint." [br]
(Srila Prabhupada Morning Walk, 10/4/1975)[br][br]

"If a man is a thief and if people are warned that he is a thief, that is truth. Although sometimes the truth is unpalatable, one should not refrain from speaking it. Truthfulness demands that the facts be presented as they are for the benefit of others. That is the definition of truth."[br]
(Bhagavad-gita As It Is, 10.4-5, purport)[br][/quote]

Cult members always object to criticism of their false gods, but I did not come to ISKCON to be a cult member. I came as a seeker of the truth. If what you call denigration are false statements, I want to hear what is right, but it seems that the objection is against true facts that are disturbing to hear.

[quote][cite] Pandu das:[/cite][quote][cite] sri_govinda_das:[/cite]My dear Pandu das,initiation is an encouragment...[/quote]Sri Govinda Prabhu,

A little less than two years after I started chanting Hare Krishna, I moved to New Vrindavana with my wife and our baby. It was 1997. All I knew about the Hare Krishna movement was what I had read in Srila Prabhupadas books, which of course did not include anything after 1977. I saw in the back of Bhagavad-gita that it was listed as a farm community, and I wanted to live in a Hare Krishna farm community. When I got there, the temple president asked me what I planned to do. I replied that I wanted to chant Hare Krishna and do farm work. He laughed and said I could work at the potpourri pie factory. I went there and discovered that it was not a devotee-owned business. It was lunchtime, and half the workers were smoking cigarettes and eating meat. It was not what I came there to do, so I ended up being a maintenance man for the temple community. There was no opportunity for farming.[br][br]
If I understand it correctly, I got there the day Tapah Punja got out of jail for his participation in Sulocanas murder. I heard him talking about it, but didnt understand what that was about. I figured he was just a guy who learned about the Hare Krishna movement in jail, and I was a little confused to realize that he was a sannyasi (but he got married to our neighbor shortly thereafter). I happened to meet some devotees, ex-gurukulis, etc., who were somewhat forthcoming about what the community had been through. From them I heard about multiple murders (one ex-gurukuli was still quite upset about the murder of one of his friends), rape of women and children, prostitution, drug dealing, fraud, etc. It seemed like there was no criminal activity that did not go on there. I learned that the whole NV community had been excommunicated from ISKCON, upon hearing the news when they were readmitted.[br][br]
I also had my own bad experiences. My daughters first word was "cockroach," because the apartment was so infested. We would see hundreds every day. Our toothbrushes were kept in a basket hanging from a string attached to the ceiling in order to keep the roaches off them. We couldnt have second pieces of our kids first birthday cake because it was swarmed with roaches within 10 minutes after it was cut, even though I tried to put it in a safe place. We had problems with the temple management. The apartment rent had tripled the previous year, but it was hard to earn money to pay for it because no one wanted to pay for any service. Once I did a job for the temple that took a week, and to finish it I just needed to apply a little paint, ten minutes of work. The color I needed was locked in a room that I couldnt access, and I couldnt pay my rent because I they wouldnt pay me anything because the job wasnt done. The same guy who needed to arrange for the room to be unlocked wouldnt pay me the money I needed to give back to him, but was instead berating me for not having my rent money. I did not go
there to be distrusted. My wife began to get disillusioned before me, and several devotees told me that I should leave her and join the bhakta program....[/quote]Come on you got initiation recently and despite all the faults you saw. Something else must matter for you. It is not our job to know it, but we just want to point out that just because someone is "Ivan the terrible" we still have to follow scriptures and respect them, just as we would respect an ant, and if they chant Hare Krishna, moreover. There is no need to dig for all the file info that deprogrammers have to be a "true devotee"/ It is my humble opinion that if you end up with adhumanum argument, you philosophical argument must be wrong. ys

[quote][cite] VEDA:[/cite]> Veda says Srila Prabhupadas answer is aparadha and wants me reported to the GBC and presumably banned from ISKCON for believing "Officiating Acaryas... Rtvik. Yes."[br][br]

Again youre misinterpreting me. I said Prabhupadas answer is most probably the result of mishearing. Did it occur to you?
Otherwise hed refute all his previous teachings. Clear?
[/quote]

So it couldnt be your misunderstanding? It had to be that Srila Prabhupada made a mistake at that critical time due to his imperfect senses, and due to his false pride he didnt asked Satsvarupa to repeat himself?[br][br]

What do you think he heard that sounds like "particularly at that time when youre no longer with us."?

[quote][cite] Pandu das:[/cite][quote][cite] VEDA:[/cite]> Veda says Srila Prabhupadas answer is aparadha and wants me reported to the GBC and presumably banned from ISKCON for believing "Officiating Acaryas... Rtvik. Yes."[br][br]

Again youre misinterpreting me. I said Prabhupadas answer is most probably the result of mishearing. Did it occur to you?
Otherwise hed refute all his previous teachings. Clear?
[/quote]

So it couldnt be your misunderstanding? It had to be that Srila Prabhupada made a mistake at that critical time due to his imperfect senses, and due to his false pride he didnt asked Satsvarupa to repeat himself?[br][br]

What do you think he heard that sounds like "particularly at that time when youre no longer with us."?[/quote] Sorry if they would start calling themself Officiating Acharyas, that would be okay for you and you are ready to rejoin the cult of murderers and rapists, and follow thier authority without questioning and take your brahmana tread from Kirtanananda with a tape from Prabhupada? I do not believe that. Words do not change the substance, substance is following the authority, how you call your guru, Gurudeva or Maharaja does not matter, you do what he tells you, be he a GBC, TP, Initiating guru or officiating acharya. I just do not get that play of words, and do not trust that this is the actual reason. Actual reason is not wanting to follow the authority and senior devotees, and you gave sufficient reasons that tells us why. So...

No its not necessarily like that. First of all I dont think it is like we all become like yes man to our "authorities. Even when Jayananda was asked to go to Mayapur by SP he initially refused and SP allowed him to stay in SanFran.
The perceived problem is putting up perceived conditioned souls as Saksad Hari Sat Guru when they may not be qualified as such. So maybe that is why SP mentioned officiating Guru.

I take it that maybe that he meant officiating regular Guru. Who knows? He seemed to left it vaugue! Mystery? We might have to wait for another Acarya-avatara for resolution.

U r right though we should be cultivating respect for all living entities regardless. Although one could call a spade a spade if it is perceived as correction or something. Not black or White for sure,methinks!

HK!

Whatever spiritual realisations he has gained, whatever he has learnt in his journey towards spiritual goals comes from Srila Prabhupada. SP is his natural Guru. Iskcon authorities, your so called senior vaishnavas has given him misery only. He has not gained anything from them, has not learnt anything from them then why they would even claim to be his guru. Surrender to authority, serve authority, just demanding all the time and giving misery in return. All the spiritual nourishment is coming from Srila Prabhupada only, so Srila Prabhupada is the Guru.

>you do what he tells you, be he a GBC, TP,

sometimes they behave totally insane, and when they do that there is no need to follow them.

> Over 500 devotee children sued ISKCON because of having to endure horrific molestations, beatings, and torture at the hands of ISKCON leaders. Are these leaders and those who have supported them what you call Vaisnavas?

Definitely. The lowest level of Vaisnava is one who pronounces the holy name once. Api cet suduracaro... Theyll get their reactions but their service wont be forgotten by Krsna.

> "Our business is to point out who is not a saint."
Cult members always object to criticism of their false gods, but I did not come to ISKCON to be a cult member. I came as a seeker of the truth. If what you call denigration are false statements, I want to hear what is right, but it seems that the objection is against true facts that are disturbing to hear.

Our ritvik-cz guy also loves this not a saint statement. The problem is who has a right to decide and label others. Ritviks think they have the right. How come? No answer.

False gods = suduracari Vaisnavas? Now you again confirm you dont understand Vaisnava tattva.

Denigration is already the BtP magazines main idea look how this guy is fallen, he cant be a Vaisnava, lets show everyone, what to speak of actual verbal attacks.

> What do you think he heard that sounds like "particularly at that time when youre no longer with us."?

He simply concentrated on the first sentence, where future = before his tirobhava, as ritviks; and after his tirobhava: ritviks >> regular gurus. Otherwise hed be instituting apasampradaya, what else. But he didnt as is obvious from his words like "a regular guru", "disciple of my disciple" and "theyre his grand disciples".

I really dont understand this desperate need to squeeze apasiddhanta from a few words and parts of sentences of a mahabhagavata.
Really a super perversion.

[quote][cite] Pandu das:[/cite]When I got there, the temple president asked me what I planned to do. I replied that I wanted to chant Hare Krishna and do farm work. He laughed and said I could work at the potpourri pie factory. I went there and discovered that it was not a devotee-owned business. It was lunchtime, and half the workers were smoking cigarettes and eating meat. It was not what I came there to do, so I ended up being a maintenance man for the temple community. There was no opportunity for farming.[/quote]

Prabhu, I went to see NV in the late 80s, after I have been in the movement for 10 years. I took a good look at that place (including a darsan with K-swami) and I knew this was a horrible, dangerous place. I could not wait to get out of there quick enough. We all get lessons we need. I am glad you have found solace in Prabhupada instructions and after what you have been through it is remarkable that you are still with us here. I may criticize ritvikvada but I have only respect for devotees who are sincere seekers of Truth. Dandavat pranams.

Veda prabhu you are indeed correct....please accept my humble obeisances all sadhus and sincere persons who are attempting to glorify our Founder -Archarya....his divine grace srila Ac Bhaktivedanta swami Prabhupada who has mercifully saved us from our insanity.Hence within informed vaisnava circles we are referred to as Rupanugas.
\Whose particular mood and unique flavour is carried within the Nectar of Devotion which our Archarya accepted as the law book of devotional service.Hence when we follow his devotional conclusions all our problems dissolve before our eyes. We are all united in trying to please him because his mood and conclusions are thoroughly pleasing to the previous Prabhupadas .As a consequence he was uniquely empowered to come to the western world and attempt to make brahmanas out of us! third class men......sometimes tenth class men.

May all my siksa gurus and his divine grace Srila tamala krishna goswami continue to bath me in their unique loving criticisms when i naturally stray, as is my conditioning and inclination according to the modes of material nature. May their words haunt me if i cling to the modes of ignorance and passion and refuse their sincere attempts to deliver me.

As my guru told me Arjuna and krishna used to hug each other when they met....infact krishna used to tap arjuna on the shoulders as a close intimate friend when he felt this loving brotherly affection.....he only had this unique relationship with arjuna amongst the Pandavas.His special mood towards arjuna,and his qualification that he was his devotee and his sakha of krishnas meant that he was receptive and attentive to please his intimate friend out of love.

Thanks, Prabhu. Jay Srila Prabhupada!

Such is the atmosphere where spiritual knowlegde is lovingly given and accepted out of duty and sublime intelligence. Eventually for us we must submit and attempt to rectify ourselves and our crooked minds as they submerge us in tamas.Through neutrality to matter,love for god and compassion for all living entities as srila Bhaktivinoda takura Prabhupada suggests we preach and actually become a real devotee after pleasing our authorities.....which means submission.Srila Prabhupada used to tell Tamala krishna goswami become Ruled by the order of GURU.

Such is the loving sweet environment in which spiritual knowlegde is offered and attentively accepted by the sincere and first class sadhaka.However many of us are infact crooked ,twisted by material desires and motivations for some form of profit, adoration and many perverse forms of distinction.Which keep us intent on staying locked up ,submerged in our lusty desires to the degree that we become bewildered when our desires are frustrated.We loose our humble weak intelligence when we independently reject our gurus service because we think we know better........The cure according to srila Bhaktivinoda takura is to become neutral to matter,love krishna with all your heart and become compassionate and merciful to the ones we preach to.

Such is the natural loving receptive and reciprocal mood amongst friends intent on pleasing their guru....which is what all of us share due to our birth right ,which is what initiation anoits us with,enabling us to be sons and daughters of our father and shared siksa guru...... srila Prabhupada.The iskcon family ,its successes and also with all its faults .
As the seventh goswami Srila Bhaktivinoda takura comments,become neutral to matter,love the supreme lord sri krishna and be very merciful to those whom you are meant to preach to.But as an older brother Pandu das you are sadly heading in the wrong direction Prabhu ....i must say this as hopefully an more experienced older brother....and hopefully new devotee friend.Please excuse my inept style and lack of culture ....your servant

[quote][cite] VEDA:[/cite]>

> The extremes at both end of spectrum could balance each other out maybe. Not that we try to go to war with either the liberal modernists or the conservative traditionalists.

Seems like you dont understand that theres no middle ground here: either the guru parampara continues or not.
If not, were not anymore Vedic, with all ramifications it entails (beginning with no authority in India as a genuine group, thus completely undermining our preaching; sastra would become unimportant - if one principle can be changed why not others?, etc.). Iow, Pandoras box would be opened.[/quote]

[quote][cite] VEDA:[/cite]> Over 500 devotee children sued ISKCON because of having to endure horrific molestations, beatings, and torture at the hands of ISKCON leaders. Are these leaders and those who have supported them what you call Vaisnavas?[br][br]

Definitely. The lowest level of Vaisnava is one who pronounces the holy name once. Api cet suduracaro... Theyll get their reactions but their service wont be forgotten by Krsna.
[/quote]

Sisupala pronounced Krishnas name many times, but his liberation was when Krishna severed his head. The child-molester "devotees" may fit the lowest definition of a Vaisnava, but I dont know how they can be glorified. I once had the extraordinarily distasteful experience of sitting in a temple room where one such person was in an elevated seat along with several gurus and sannyasis. There is a picture in a summer 2005 BTG of him being worshipped with a peacock fan with over a hundred devotees sitting at their feet. Although unrepentant, he was still relatively benevolent compared what Ive heard about many of the gurukula teachers.[br][br]

I just dont know how anyone can protect or glorify someone who has raped or tortured devotee children, just because they may have chanted something that sounded like the holy name. Were told the worst offense is to sin on the strength of chanting the holy name, but thats not sin; its thoroughly demoniac vaisnava aparadha. I read in _Sri Harinam Citamani_ that due to meeting a Vaisnava one becomes attracted to the holy name (I dont have the quote handy now), but these so-called devotees so perverted the holy name in the minds of children that hearing Hare Krishna makes them ill. They brought infamy to the Holy Name and the devotees. More than five hundred Vaisnava children were horrifically abused in ISKCON schools; how many of the abusers went to prison? Does anyone know? [br][br]

The only time I ever heard of a devotee being ordered kicked out by Srila Prabhupada was one who had molested a child or children. (As I recall, devotees petitioned to Srila Prabhupada on his behalf, and he was allowed to come to the Sunday Feast only.) Now they keep the child abusers around, give them salaries and time on the Vyasaasana, and kick out the devotees who want Srila Prabhpada as their guru after seeing he said he wanted it that way.

I am surprised that you support the ritvik philosophy if you think that you should get rid of people of low behavior from a religious institution. Standard of being a guru is much higher then being just a ritivik, thus you will still have to bow to the authority of the likes of Kirtanananda, since they will not disqualify from being a ritvik, in fact the higher the standard for leaders the better it is. So imagine taking your japa mala from one?

I think we can make even a survey of devotees who got initiation from Prabhupada. If you make a statistical comparison of those who got hari nam japa directly from Prabhupadas hands, with those who got it through rikviks during his lifetime and Prabhupada did not chant on their beads, you will see the outcome -- much higher rate of stable devotees coming directly from Prabhupada. But then again, Prabhupada himself approved many of the devotees for sannyasa and even babaji initiation, but they latter took a humble grihastha dress. As one of them put it yesterday:

Yes, we all know, myself included, the torture personally that takes place when leaving the sanyas ashram to become a householder. But, Srila Prabhupad encouraged this for me, for Rupanuga Prabhu, and for others. If you think that the external dress is so important, you will try to understand that Srila Prabhupad was concerned with saving the souls of his disciples'85at any cost. Even if it '93hurt'94 the movement, Srila Prabhupad placed the disciple'92s soul above all of that. I have personal experience of this both for myself and for other sanyas godbrothers who valiently served Srila Prabhupad'92s preaching mission in those early days, and later took up householder life, with Srila Prabhupad'92s personal blessings, and encouragement, I might add. Are we vantasi'92s (eaters of one'92s own vomit) or servants of Srila Prabhupad who continue to serve in whatever capacity we may be able. And, prabhu, it is not '93very bad for that person and for Srila Prabhupads movement.'94 Judge not, lest ye be judged'85.a word of advice from higher places. Varnashrama dharma is a form for society, while loving service to Sri Guru and Sri Krishna are the substance. Hare Krishna.

> Sisupala pronounced Krishnas name many times, but his liberation was when Krishna severed his head.

Sisupala is an eternal member of Krsna lila so this comparison is not fitting.

> The child-molester "devotees" may fit the lowest definition of a Vaisnava, but I dont know how they can be glorified.

They shouldnt be glorified but respected from a distance, unless they repented and rectified. But theyre not on the level of materialists committing the same misbehavior.

> I read in _Sri Harinam Citamani_ that due to meeting a Vaisnava one becomes attracted to the holy name (I dont have the quote handy now), but these so-called devotees so perverted the holy name in the minds of children that hearing Hare Krishna makes them ill.

This is quite understandable but still a misidentification. Holy Name is not affected.

By this you prove that ritvikism is simply an utilitarian idea (because of so much crime in ISKCON, nobody is qualified to initiate).

[quote][cite] ccd:[/cite]I am surprised that you support the ritvik philosophy if you think that you should get rid of people of low behavior from a religious institution. Standard of being a guru is much higher then being just a ritivik, thus you will still have to bow to the authority of the likes of Kirtanananda, since they will not disqualify from being a ritvik, in fact the higher the standard for leaders the better it is. So imagine taking your japa mala from one? ... Hare Krishna.[/quote]

At least one would expect a rtvik to be following the regulative principles. If he was discovered to be molesting boys, as has been said, he should have been turned in to the police and hopefully sent to jail. How then would he be giving japa beads to anyone?[br][br]

[quote][cite] VEDA:[/cite]> Sisupala pronounced Krishnas name many times, but his liberation was when Krishna severed his head.

Sisupala is an eternal member of Krsna lila so this comparison is not fitting.[/quote]

It becomes a little more difficult to establish what is proper if we cant make any comparisons between Krishnas pastimes and events in ISKCON. I know its not a perfect analogy, but surely Im not the first to do this.[br][br]

[quote]> The child-molester "devotees" may fit the lowest definition of a Vaisnava, but I dont know how they can be glorified.

They shouldnt be glorified but respected from a distance, unless they repented and rectified. But theyre not on the level of materialists committing the same misbehavior.
[/quote]

I would say theyre much worse. Someone posing as a devotee but doing abominable activities is committing namaparadha, causing harm to devotees everywhere, and undermining the whole preaching movement. The abuse of a devotee child is aparadha against the child, the parents, Srila Prabhupada, etc. If an ordinary person not trying to appear as a devotee abuses a devotee child, the reputation of the Hare Krishna movement is not harmed nearly as much. Or, if an ordinary man abuses an ordinary child, it is a sin, not aparadha. [br][br]

[quote]> I read in _Sri Harinam Citamani_ that due to meeting a Vaisnava one becomes attracted to the holy name (I dont have the quote handy now), but these so-called devotees so perverted the holy name in the minds of children that hearing Hare Krishna makes them ill.

This is quite understandable but still a misidentification. Holy Name is not affected.[/quote]

Certainly the holy name is eternally pure, but the perception people have of the holy name is affected, and thus the preaching movement is harmed. It is more difficult for people to accept the chanting of holy names as a process for purification and spiritual realization when people who chant appear to be degraded even by ordinary standards. That is why, for example, stealing for Krishna is generally discouraged.[br][br]

[quote]By this you prove that ritvikism is simply an utilitarian idea (because of so much crime in ISKCON, nobody is qualified to initiate).[/quote]

No, you cannot dismiss one argument because another argument is also made. Rtvikism was established in ISKCON by Srila Prabhupada. When asked how initiations were to be conducted after his disappearance, he replied, "officiating acarya... rtvik acarya." He never said to terminate the system or left any record saying that tirobhava initiations could not be done. There is also other positive evidence, such as his will, and negative evidence, such as so many missing tapes at the critical time and the lack of instruction on how diksa gurus would function under the GBC, which they still havent figured out. [br][br]

The fact that so many gurus and other leaders in ISKCON have proven to be below a reasonable standard for guru is secondary evidence. The argument does not depend upon it at all. Even if there were many pure devotees in ISKCON who could function very nicely as diksa gurus, Srila Prabhupada could still not have authorized diksa gurus in ISKCON for whatever reason, according to his discretion as Founder-Acarya. I have yet to see anything proving he could not do it. So far it appears that the the side prohibiting the rtvik method depends upon presenting Srila Prabhupada as materially conditioned, which I cannot accept.

I am a guru to my family,a guru to my tribe .....and a leader to a small group of devotees....some see me as a guru.Why because i give them guidance and shelter....my sons and cousins bow down to me because the woman train them in such a manner....it is how srila Prabhupada wanted it.As a result the culture is a real aspect of their lives ...but more importantly they receive transcendental reciprocation from krishna as a result of hearing from me they are more of a devotee than myself and preach to me regularly.So this is krishnas arrangement and i have faith in time i will actually be qualified ....however who would want to take everyones karma?What great soul feels to be so compassionate as to accept their sins....?

This iskcon grapevine of gossip is a powerhouse of destruction for the society.When i hear of child molestation obviously they should be taken to the courts however that has generally not turned out to even be satisfactory for the complainents.....Some gurus have actually succeeded ....my siksa guru tamala krishna goswami....however within iskcon this is indeed not enough because we are many times just crows....when we should be swans.Crows live on eating all sorts of garbage.Our ranks seem unable to understand that we are in a War ,this war zone will infact cause the spiritual destruction of many many good sincere devotees who genuinely intend to serve krishna ,however the material nature is an formidable adversary who knows our weaknesses better than we do.Also our gurus go out into mayadevis kingdom to preach!Everyday they gloriously attempt to take srila Prabhupadas message to all unfavourable environments.....out of the personal desire to please their guru.They risk every thing! And yes many have failed ....but they are not like other sampradaya gurus who themselves cannot believe our gurus jump into the ring with maya.At least they flew many of them.....even if they crashed.But we are a young society ,whose first generations have not had the devotional training my children have had since they were born....They sweetly sing brahma samita naturally while they tolerate my humble class rhetoric for ten or twelve years....are they better trained ?Yes ....will they be better devotees?Also even the gaudiya line has truly struggled to achieve a bridgehead in the western world without cheating,by stealing our devotees and all sundry nefarious strategies....

iSKCON devotees who have followed the original vaisnava teachings of the law of disciplic succession have built a worldwide society,while the ritviks have not acheived any honest thing.....all they do is complain and steal our temples like Bangalore....Because they are indian entrepreneurs after great personal wealth,i know their cheating ability personally....and though competent at using the philosophy to smudge and confuse others can not acheive anything positive because they are not empowered to do so by srila Prabhupada!What is your practical preaching agenda Pandu das ?According to your ritvik group as to how you will save the conditioned souls?Or it it just futile rhetoric with no substance.....just flapping in the modes of material nature?Not allowed to surrender to any authority because of numerous aparadhas committed

[quote][cite] sri_govinda_das:[/cite]iSKCON devotees who have followed the original vaisnava teachings of the law of disciplic succession have built a worldwide society,[/quote]

The "law of disciplic succession" only appears once in Srila Prabhupadas instructions, telling Tusta Krsna that he could not initiate in Srila Prabhupadas presence. That was the obvious point of the letter, stopping him from accepting disciples. It was also a private letter to one person, someone who Srila Prabhupada may have known would go off and do his own thing. It could not have been an instruction for guiding ISKCON because there was no guarantee it would ever be known to others; and indeed it was not revealed until many years after Srila Prabhupadas disappearance. In fact, ISKCON has disposed of this law by GBC resolution authorizing certain devotees to give initiation in the presence of their spiritual master. If the "law of disciplic succession" is so important to ISKCON, why have they taken only the part they like and discarded what they dont? That half-chicken cant fly.

[quote]while the ritviks have not acheived any honest thing.....all they do is complain and steal our temples like Bangalore[/quote]

What do you mean "our" temples? Srila Prabhupada founded almost all the temples. I cant say much about Bangalore since Ive never been there, though it does seem to be thriving under the rtvik system, and as I recall the court has found Bangalore management to be bona fide or something to that effect. I do know that at my local temple, Gita-nagari, Srila Prabhupada seems treated like a figurehead and not respected, honored, or worshiped like I would expect in one of his temples. I remember one of the last Vyasa Puja festivals for Bhakti Tirtha Swami before he passed away, it lasted for three days, and numerous ISKCON laws were broken regarding overglorification of gurus. On the other hand, Srila Prabhupadas Vyasa Puja festival that year was over at noon, just as it is every year. I didnt get out of the temple until about 12:30, and by then the prasad was practically all gone. I also remember hearing Radhanatha Swami saying that we should manage Gita-nagari according to Bhakti Tirthas vision. I dont know what happened to Srila Prabhupadas vision, but its definitely not being done here. Book distribution is almost nil. Public harinam sankirtan is infrequent and done only in the cities 50 miles away because the community has destroyed its reputation with the locals. Its a disaster. A lot of it is being written about in the Sampradaya Sun lately. Incidentally, I did not write any of those articles, nor do I know who did.[br][br]

I have only been following the rtvik movement for about a year, and Ive been trying to understand why it has been struggling to get on its feet. Ive found there are many obstacles, but they are gradually being overcome. ISKCON did immense harm to Srila Prabhupadas mission by claiming that the 11 rtviks he appointed had become acaryas upon his disappearance. So many devotees were kicked out and scattered. The evidence that the rtvik system was supposed to continue was suppressed and hidden for many years, and we have no way of knowing what was on the numerous tapes that we have heard were destroyed. These are things that cannot be undone, and they have given the false gurus a big advantage on the material stage. [br][br]

Honestly, if the gurus were competent and did not change the philosophy, I doubt Srila Prabhupada would mind. Unfortunately thats not the case. I have seen numbers, which I dont have in front of me know, saying that currently there are about 75 gurus out of well over 200 that have been appointed by the GBC. About 2/3 have fallen. Many have still made a mockery of what it means to be a Vaisnava guru, and some still wear the badge and receive the worship. Some are getting many followers by preaching popular modern ideas like homosexuality and womens equality. It has become a farce.[br][br]

[quote]What is your practical preaching agenda Pandu das ?According to your ritvik group as to how you will save the conditioned souls?[/quote]
What is my preaching agenda? To preach what Srila Prabhupada taught. Its that simple. If anyone likes it, good; if not, well thats the material world. Its not up to me to save anyone. Im just a servant trying to deliver Srila Prabhupadas message. Whether they accept it or not is between them and Krishna.

We are rupanugas ...followers of Rupa goswami Prabhupada the disciple of sri chaitanya mahaprabhu....he in fact is the True authentic Sampradaya archarya...according to srila Bhaktisiddanta saraswati takura Prabhupada ,who both follow the law of disciplic succession.....While your apa-sampradaya teaching finds no traction amongst those who are following disciplic law of succession.... srila Prabhupadas standard was in fact Guru,Sadhu and sastra.
Where are your ritvik gurus within our sampradaya or are you part of the Gaudiya matha line?What gbc members are in fact ritviks?What sastric proof is there! What famous devotees in the srimad bhagavatam preach ritvik siddhanta?Ritvik Archaryas system within recent history is there any because i have been unable to find any?

Sorry to tell you this but in our area the south pacific ....The only temple established while srila Prabhupada was here was melbourne temple ,however it was paid off by Bhavanadas disciples from australia and new Zealand.All the rest Auckland,Christchurch,wellington,sydney,New govardhan,and the other small provincial centres were infact financed by Bhavanadas Disciples ,Prabhu vishnu swami disciples to a lesser degree.And in fiji by the disciples of Tamala krishna goswami....America unfortunately is suffering because of their inherent inability to surrender to authority....so no doubt it might be like you say hopefully .However once you travel the world actually most temples have been financed by his grand disciple followers and their gurus.

Of course srila Prabhupadas disciples were our guiding managers,our senior leaders and our personal inspiration many times....which indeed allowed us the accomplish so much.We were indeed bless with such a wonderful group of PRABHUPADA DISCIPLES ,who never in fifteen years i served them preach ritvik nonsense.....never.Srila Prabhupadas disciples ki jaya.

[quote][cite] sri_govinda_das:[/cite]srila Prabhupadas standard was in fact Guru,Sadhu and sastra.[/quote]

Ive learned about Guru Sadhu and Sastra through Srila Prabhupada. Unlike some devotees, I have not been making an independent study of these to judge Srila Prabhupadas teachings and interpret them accordingly.[br][br]

[quote]Where are your ritvik gurus within our sampradaya or are you part of the Gaudiya matha line?[/quote]

Srila Prabhupada created the rtvik system. The GBC disbanded it and appointed gurus without authorization.[br][br]

[quote]What gbc members are in fact ritviks?[/quote]

The GBC in Bangalore are rtviks, elected as described in the DOM.[br][br]

The GBC that is now the GBC Society of West Bengal, or something like that (which Srila Prabhupada did not create), is supposed to be following Srila Prabhupada, but the rtviks he appointed wanted to be gurus instead, so they did what they wanted and abandoned his order, banning anyone who opposed their plan. By outlawing the rtvik view, theyve made any rtvik-supporting presence on the GBC practically impossible.

[quote]What sastric proof is there![/quote]

Srila Prabhupada instituted the rtvik sytem personally. What sastric proof is there that it had to be terminated upon his disappearance, when he did not order that?????

[quote]What famous devotees in the srimad bhagavatam preach ritvik siddhanta?[/quote]

If thats your standard, then I guess the GBC is bogus too, since theres no GBC mentioned in the Bhagavatam either, not even in Srila Prabhupadas purports. For that matter, nowhere in any of Srila Prabhupadas books does he mention the GBC of ISKCON; shall we get rid of that too? Perhaps you could tell me how Srila Prabhupada wanted the GBC to share authority with multiple diksa gurus, since Srila Prabhupada didnt talk about that at all, and theyre still trying to figure it out (based on an article and discussion on Dandavats.com earlier this year, sorry I dont have the link handy at the moment).[br][br]

Furthermore, the rtvik system that Srila Prabhupada had in place during his manifest pastimes was apparently bogus too, by your criteria, since thats not in the Bhagavatam either. Whatever was his basis or authority for establishing that system, he never said it was to be terminated or had to be terminated, nor has anyone that I know of ever shown proof of any reason that it could not be continued.

[quote]Ritvik Archaryas system within recent history is there any because i have been unable to find any?[/quote]

LOL![br][br]
Satsvarupa: By the votes of the present GBC. Then our next question concerns initiations in the future, particularly at that time when youre no longer with us. We want to know how first and second initiation would be conducted.
Prabhupada: Yes. I shall recommend some of you. After this is settled up, I shall recommend some of you to act as officiating acaryas.[br]
Tamala Krsna: Is that called rtvik-acarya?[br]
Prabhupada: Rtvik, yes.[br]
>>> Ref. VedaBase => GBC Meets with Srila Prabhupada -- May 28, 1977, Vrndavana
[br][br]
Tamala Krsna: Upendra and I could see it for the last... [break][br]
Prabhupada: And nobody is going to disturb you there. Make your own field and continue to become rttvik and act on my charge.[br]
>>> Ref. VedaBase => Room Conversation -- July 19, 1977, Vrndavana[br][br]

"Make your own field and continue to become rttvik and act on my charge."[br]
He never said to stop. He told Tamal Krishna Gosvami to "continue to become rtvik." Obviously Tamal had his own ideas.[br][br]
"I can definitely say for myself, and for which I humbly beg forgiveness from everybody, that there was definitely some degree of trying to control(...) This is the conditioned nature, and it came out in the highest position of all, Guru, oh wonderful! Now I am guru, and there is only eleven of us" - Tamal Krsna Gosvami, December 3, 1980.

Actually my dear Pandu das Is your name from SRILA Prabhupadas disciple a result of our Law of Disciplic succession system?Since you have rejected the teachings of your guru and him personally .....a disciplic succession advocate,you should not indeed use it .Since you are not part of Iskcon.....But deem yourself a follower of ritvik vada ...approach your new siksa gurus and tell us if its indeed better....We would actual be very interested if you are more satisfied....Possibly you should take your siksa from Radharani while your at it ....after all she is infact the true leader of all the gurus in your new line.

So tamala krishna made his own field ,as a result krishna conciousness boomedespecially in the south pacific country of fiji.This etiquette was only while srila Prabhupada was present,then they became their discip[les.....but the envious have seized on it for the nefarious demoniac ambitions.

Where are all your sastric quotes ?Examples of guru Ritviks in our line?Even ritvik Archaryas?Hence you are just living another illusion of maya.You could speak about your own guru.....BUT you rejected him ....My siksa guru,his divine grace Tamala krishna goswami signed your ritvik- vada letter ...since he was srila Prabhupadas foremost disciple.....he never fell down .But now you want to be offensive to even my guru.By extrapolating his words for your own ends.....you are not even initiated ....you could not even please your own guru ....You are just .....a new bhakta.....hare krishna ....

So with our blessing go to their concocted Bangalore Gbc....it would really suit your motives ...i am sorry what is your name?before your unfortunate initiation....Bhakta ......so really you are not even part of our sampradaya ....are you! Hare krishna .

>sri_govinda_das: i am sorry what is your name?before your unfortunate initiation....Bhakta ......so really you are not even part of our sampradaya ....are you! Hare krishna .

Thou shalt use a computer in ways that show consideration and respect (from computer ethics institute, ten commandments)

We are talking about respect for this guy.... he rejects his guru commits all sorts of aparadhas...trashes our sampradaya and then attacks my guru...Hare krishna.He is not even initiated....

> It becomes a little more difficult to establish what is proper if we cant make any comparisons between Krishnas pastimes and events in ISKCON. I know its not a perfect analogy, but surely Im not the first to do this.

Sure. Imperfect analogies dont work.

The chanting should be with faith as explained in CC 2.15.106. That was another difference between ISKCON devotees and Sisupala. Unless it can be proved that every molester was always an asura who cheated SP into giving him diksa in order to later molest children and commit other crimes.

> I would say theyre much worse. Someone posing as a devotee but doing abominable activities is committing namaparadha, causing harm to devotees everywhere, and undermining the whole preaching movement. The abuse of a devotee child is aparadha against the child, the parents, Srila Prabhupada, etc. If an ordinary person not trying to appear as a devotee abuses a devotee child, the reputation of the Hare Krishna movement is not harmed nearly as much. Or, if an ordinary man abuses an ordinary child, it is a sin, not aparadha.

"Someone posing as a devotee but doing abominable activities is committing namaparadha" is contradicted by your own words. Either he _is_ a devotee and then commits aparadha or _is not_ and then commits papa.
However, devotee commiting aparadha is not on the same level as materialist. Two differences:
1. He _commits aparadha_ (> heavier karma) while karmi _commits papa_ (> lighter karma).
2. He will be soon rectified (BG 9.30-31).
Ritviks consistently refuse to consider the 2nd difference, either out of ignorance of Vaisnava tattva or out of enmity to Vaisnavas, or both and create more aparadhas against such Vaisnavas. This is asuric in nature. Since you close your eyes to this fact and prefer their apasiddhanta, be prepared for reactions. The fact that you stubbornly stick to it shows that mayayapahrta jnana factor is at work and youve reach a stage where you cant disentangle yourself anymore.

No one argues against the fact that abominable acts harm our preaching, etc. Thats included in the aparadha.

> Rtvikism was established in ISKCON by Srila Prabhupada. When asked how initiations were to be conducted after his disappearance, he replied, "officiating acarya... rtvik acarya."

He established only pre tirobhava ritvikism. There isnt enough evidence for post tirobhava ritvikism to outweigh all his previous teaching, establishing apasampradaya. How many times this has to be repeated?

> He never said to terminate the system or left any record saying that tirobhava initiations could not be done.

The most obvious reason is that he expected his disciples to know the sastra followed in all genuine sampradayas where post-tirobhava ritvikism is absent.

> There is also other positive evidence, such as his will,

I mentioned that the my initiated disciples sentence must have remained there due to an overlook by an attorney who was supposed to check it. The reason: a complete lack of any explanation why traditional parampara should be stopped.

> and negative evidence, such as so many missing tapes at the critical time

This is a conspiration theory. Provide names and places. Until then... missing evidence is no evidence.

> and the lack of instruction on how diksa gurus would function under the GBC, which they still havent figured out.

Yes, this was neglected. But it doesnt prove that apasampradaya is the way to go.

> Even if there were many pure devotees in ISKCON who could function very nicely as diksa gurus, Srila Prabhupada could still not have authorized diksa gurus in ISKCON for whatever reason, according to his discretion as Founder-Acarya. I have yet to see anything proving he could not do it.

Isnt this somehow confused?

> So far it appears that the the side prohibiting the rtvik method depends upon presenting Srila Prabhupada as materially conditioned, which I cannot accept.

If rejecting the post tirobhava ritvikism means being materially conditioned, then why all previous Vaisnava acaryas didnt establish post tirobhava ritvikism? Due to their material conditioning as per your suggestion...? You wont even stop from offending previous acaryas??

The reason is simple (yet unacceptable to post tirobhava ritviks): Its against the very principle of parampara (one after another) so they wouldnt even think of it. Stopping parampara (e.g. by declaring ones disciples unqualified to be gurus, which itself disqualies the guru in the first place - a vicious circle) means the tattva will be lost and Krsna will have to come to establish it again. (BG 4.2-3, 8) When Krsna establishes sampradaya, whod dare to stop it? Only His enemies. This is the position of post tirobhava ritviks, if you like it or not, and you stubbornly side with them.

> What is my preaching agenda? To preach what Srila Prabhupada taught. Its that simple.

Where did he teach post tirobhava ritvikism? Please dont hide it away from us anymore.
Also quote from genuine sastras as Srila Prabhupada always did and taught himself, please.

>> What famous devotees in the srimad bhagavatam preach ritvik siddhanta?

> If thats your standard, then I guess the GBC is bogus too, since theres no GBC mentioned in the Bhagavatam either, not even in Srila Prabhupadas purports. For that matter, nowhere in any of Srila Prabhupadas books does he mention the GBC of ISKCON

Sastra teaches principles, parampara being one of the prominent ones. GBC is not against parampara. You dont understand the difference between principles and adaptations by acaryas.

In CC 1.12.8 p. he mentions the governing body of Gaudiya Math requested by BSST and how not following this request lead to GMs disintegration. This is good enough to show his position.

> (Sri Govinda P.) Since you have rejected the teachings of your guru and him personally .....a disciplic succession advocate,you should not indeed use it .

Exactly. If you consider your guru to be fake, why not your diksa? Dont use that name if youre honest. (Our ritvik-cz at least still signs as bhakta, not ... das.)

Im quite sure that you wont admit your error but I write for the benefit of others.

[quote][cite] ccd:[/cite]

I think we can make even a survey of devotees who got initiation from Prabhupada. If you make a statistical comparison of those who got hari nam japa directly from Prabhupadas hands, with those who got it through rikviks during his lifetime and Prabhupada did not chant on their beads, you will see the outcome -- much higher rate of stable devotees coming directly from Prabhupada.

Ridiculous wild speculation! Suggesting SP neglects some disciples.

[quote][cite] sri_govinda_das:[/cite]Actually my dear Pandu das Is your name from SRILA Prabhupadas disciple a result of our Law of Disciplic succession system?Since you have rejected the teachings of your guru and him personally .....a disciplic succession advocate,you should not indeed use it .[/quote]

I prefer not to use it, but sometimes do so as a matter of convenience since its how most devotees recognize who I am. My English name is Paul Howard. You can use that if you like. Im not aware of a way to change ones username at sites like this.[Br][br]

[Quote]Since you are not part of Iskcon....But deem yourself a follower of ritvik vada[/quote]

Im trying to follow Srila Prabhupada vada and he said Iskcon was to continue to perform initiations via "Officiating acarya... Rtvik." I have not renounced Iskcon, only want Iskcon to do what Srila Prabhupada ordered.[Br][br]

[quote] ...approach your new siksa gurus and tell us if its indeed better....We would actual be very interested if you are more satisfied....Possibly you should take your siksa from Radharani while your at it ....after all she is infact the true leader of all the gurus in your new line.[/quote]

What new siksa guru? Im hearing from Srila Prabhupada every day, reading his books, and doing my best to engage in devotional service according to his instructions. Who else do you think is the current acarya? Even Bhaktimarga Swami said at my initiation ceremony that Srila Prabhupada is my "primary guru." I naturally accept others guidance if it is in line with Srila Prabhupada, but his teachings are the rule to me.

[quote][cite] sri_govinda_das:[/cite]Where are all your sastric quotes ?Examples of guru Ritviks in our line?Even ritvik Archaryas?[/quote]

Youve already made it clear that you dont accept Srila Prabhupadas judgement or his order. Why do you keep repeating this point? Srila Prabhupada initiations were to be conducted by officiating acarya, a.k.a. rtvik acarya after his disappearance. He already had this system in place. I previously answered your objections, but you dont want to hear it. You have your own idea of the disciplic succession that does not involve trusting what Srila Prabhupada said. Why do you need to look elsewhere when Srila Prabhupada directly answered the question about initiations after his disappearance?

[Quote]Hence you are just living another illusion of maya.You could speak about your own guru.....BUT you rejected him ....My siksa guru,his divine grace Tamala krishna goswami signed your ritvik- vada letter ...since he was srila Prabhupadas foremost disciple.....he never fell down .But now you want to be offensive to even my guru.By extrapolating his words for your own ends.....you are not even initiated ....you could not even please your own guru ....You are just .....a new bhakta.....hare krishna ....[/quote]

What does it matter that the secretary put his signature on the letter too? Its the bosss signature that is important. TKG confessed that he wanted to be guru, though he was not in fact appointed by Srila Prabhupada. Do you think he assumed the Zonal Acarya by accident? No doubt the many missing tapes are no accident either; but looking at the available record, it seems to me like a betrayal and a coup.

[quote][cite] sri_govinda_das:[/cite]So with our blessing go to their concocted Bangalore Gbc....it would really suit your motives ...i am sorry what is your name?before your unfortunate initiation....Bhakta ......so really you are not even part of our sampradaya ....are you! Hare krishna .[/quote]

Oh please, give it a rest. You sound like someone whos lost a debate and has nothing worthwhile left to say. I am living raising a family in the USA, cultivating Krishna consciousness where I am. I have a mortgage to pay, Deities, a nice Tulasi garden, a farm animal sanctuary, and no practical ability to travel. Srila Prabhupada did not come to the West to call people to India. He came to plant bhakti here, and this is where Im serving him.

[quote][cite] VEDA:[/cite}

> He never said to terminate the system or left any record saying that tirobhava initiations could not be done.

The most obvious reason is that he expected his disciples to know the sastra followed in all genuine sampradayas where post-tirobhava ritvikism is absent.[/quote]

No, its not obvious. In fact its blatantly contradicted by the fact that Satsvarupa asked him on May 28, 1977, on behalf of the GBC, how initiations were to be conducted after his disappearance. Why would he ask if they already knew, and why would Srila Prabhupada assume they knew the answer to the question when they just asked him? That makes no sense at all.

[br][br]
[quote]> There is also other positive evidence, such as his will,

I mentioned that the my initiated disciples sentence must have remained there due to an overlook by an attorney who was supposed to check it. The reason: a complete lack of any explanation why traditional parampara should be stopped.[/quote]

Why dont you also say that Srila Prabhupada didnt look carefully at his will either?[br][br]
Have a look at how Jayapataka Swami handled this issue when confronted:[br]
http://www.vnn.org/world/WD9902/WD23-3143.html

[quote]
> and negative evidence, such as so many missing tapes at the critical time

This is a conspiration theory. Provide names and places. Until then... missing evidence is no evidence.
[/quote]

Of course it can be very difficult to prove when something has been destroyed (thats the point of doing it), but there are surprising gaps in the tape record. Im not at home now and have very limited resources at the moment, but as I recall the number of rtviks rose by two just prior to July 9 despite no recording of the conversation, and there is a two-week gap with no tapes around August 1977, if I recall correctly. Tamals question whether officiating acarya was the same as rtvik acarya suggests that they had discussed this before then. There are also devotees who claim first-hand knowledge of missing tapes, and one who has some written correspondence with the Bhaktivedanta Archives on the subject. I have seen a copy of that correspondence and hopefully can locate it. I am still trying to gather info on this.

[quote]> and the lack of instruction on how diksa gurus would function under the GBC, which they still havent figured out.

Yes, this was neglected. But it doesnt prove that apasampradaya is the way to go.[/quote]

Why say it "was" neglected, rather than saying "Srila Prabhupada neglected this?" Was he characteristically neglectful, or could it be that he did not give instructions on this important subject because it was not a supposed to come about? Your calling it apasampradaya continues to beg the question. My understanding of the sampradaya and apasampradaya comes from what Srila Prabhupada has taught, and he has said no such thing. Your repeating apadampradaya apasampradaya apasampradaya does not make it true. The record shows that Srila Prabhupada established a rtvik system for conducting initiations and there is no evidence that he said it was to stop.

[quote][cite] VEDA:[/cite]
If rejecting the post tirobhava ritvikism means being materially conditioned, then why all previous Vaisnava acaryas didnt establish post tirobhava ritvikism? Due to their material conditioning as per your suggestion...? You wont even stop from offending previous acaryas??[/quote]

There was no need. Srila Prabhupada established a worldwide society, which had not been done before. As I recall, Tamal admitted in early 1977 that he was not aware of anyone in Iskcon qualified to accept their own disciples, and Srila Prabhupada did not disagree. Srila Prabhupada as the initiating guru would help to keep Iskcon united and prevent unqualified gurus from causing a disturbance. If anyone could be a guru in ISKCON, the instutution could be harmed by the activities of unqualified gurus; and Srila Prabhupada never instructed the GBC to decide who gets to be a guru and who not. From an institutional standpoint, having everyone a direct disciple of the Founder-Acarya makes a great deal of sense, and Srila Prabhupada made many practical decisions for the benefit of Krishna consciousness. [br][br]

Isnt it true that in Bhagavad-gita Krishna says He created the varnasrama system, and a woman could be considered a brahmana not on her own but by serving a brahmana as his wife? Yet Srila Prabhupada changed this principle for practical reasons. If we allow women to be initiated as brahmanas and to go on the altar (with their chest covered -- isnt one required to worship Deities bare chested?), apparently contrary to shastra, why there a double-standard in regard to initiations?
[quote]
The reason is simple (yet unacceptable to post tirobhava ritviks): Its against the very principle of parampara (one after another) so they wouldnt even think of it. Stopping parampara (e.g. by declaring ones disciples unqualified to be gurus, which itself disqualies the guru in the first place - a vicious circle) means the tattva will be lost and Krsna will have to come to establish it again. (BG 4.2-3, 8) When Krsna establishes sampradaya, whod dare to stop it? Only His enemies. This is the position of post tirobhava ritviks, if you like it or not, and you stubbornly side with them.[/quote]

Engagement in devotional service is always a matter of free will. Some devotees fell even from Lord Caitanyas direct association. Its often said that the sampradaya is primarily siksa, and presently the siksa is being changed by diksa gurus such as HDG who have even been publicly critical of Srila Prabhupada. If Srila Prabhupada continues to initiate within ISKCON, it does not stop the disciplic succession, because anyone can go outside and initiate as Srila Prabhupada did himself.

[quote]Where did he teach post tirobhava ritvikism? Please dont hide it away from us anymore.
Also quote from genuine sastras as Srila Prabhupada always did and taught himself, please.[/quote]

Must we repeat this over and over? I dont have time to waste. He established a rtvik system. I dont know where in sastra it says he could do that, nor have I seen anywhere it says that it could not continue. When asked about tirobhava initiations he said rtvik. If you think Srila Prabhupada made a mistake with that, I guess you trust yourself more than him. So much for the guru parampara.

However the question is not about if post samadhi ritivkism is bona fide (it is clear for all). Question is If one already accepted Srila Prabhupads as his guru, is there an actual need of such initiation (ritvik)?

Please accept my humble obeisances ....my new freind Bhakta Paul howard...may you acheive the sublime mercy of srila Prabhupada and have all your desires forfilled in line with our ability to preach and please krishna....Thank you for your genuine sincerity....hare krishna.

> No, its not obvious. In fact its blatantly contradicted by the fact that Satsvarupa asked him on May 28, 1977, on behalf of the GBC, how initiations were to be conducted after his disappearance. Why would he ask if they already knew, and why would Srila Prabhupada assume they knew the answer to the question when they just asked him? That makes no sense at all.

They wanted to know details. This is pretty usual.

> Why dont you also say that Srila Prabhupada didnt look carefully at his will either?

If JPS read it to him once and he signed it, its probable. But how was that possible is beyond me.

> Have a look at how Jayapataka Swami handled this issue when confronted:

No attorney is even mentioned. It shows the amateurish approach.

Ritviks try to present superhuman guru idea (kartabhaja apasampradaya) but it doesnt help at all. If Krsna directs SPs every move so he cant overlook, overhear, etc. then establishing of apasampradaya would be done by Krsna Himself. Why? His mission is just the opposite... Are you ready to suggest this at all?

> Why say it "was" neglected, rather than saying "Srila Prabhupada neglected this?" Was he characteristically neglectful, or could it be that he did not give instructions on this important subject because it was not a supposed to come about?

Not unless a major departure from Vedic standard was at hand.

> Your calling it apasampradaya continues to beg the question.

Not at all. Its 100% apasampradaya unless proven otherwise.

> My understanding of the sampradaya and apasampradaya comes from what Srila Prabhupada has taught, and he has said no such thing.

He always followed g-s-s but you try to eliminate sastra and sadhu. Therefore apasampadaya.

> Your repeating apadampradaya apasampradaya apasampradaya does not make it true.

Then prove your point by g-s-s.

> The record shows that Srila Prabhupada established a rtvik system for conducting initiations and there is no evidence that he said it was to stop.

I wrote: after his tirobhava: ritviks >> regular gurus. Otherwise hed be instituting apasampradaya, what else. But he didnt as is obvious from his words like "a regular guru", "disciple of my disciple" and "theyre his grand disciples".

> There was no need. Srila Prabhupada established a worldwide society, which had not been done before. As I recall, Tamal admitted in early 1977 that he was not aware of anyone in Iskcon qualified to accept their own disciples, and Srila Prabhupada did not disagree. Srila Prabhupada as the initiating guru would help to keep Iskcon united and prevent unqualified gurus from causing a disturbance. If anyone could be a guru in ISKCON, the instutution could be harmed by the activities of unqualified gurus; and Srila Prabhupada never instructed the GBC to decide who gets to be a guru and who not. From an institutional standpoint, having everyone a direct disciple of the Founder-Acarya makes a great deal of sense, and Srila Prabhupada made many practical decisions for the benefit of Krishna consciousness.

Basically you say that SP turned ISKCON into a big joke. We see from the behavior of ritviks how sadly it would end within few short years.

The woman brahmana issue is not undermining any principle. Theres place for such things under apad dharma.

> If Srila Prabhupada continues to initiate within ISKCON

How? In the dream? His 11 pre tirobhava ritviks arent available or are unwiling and no one else could do it.

> it does not stop the disciplic succession, because anyone can go outside and initiate as Srila Prabhupada did himself.

Such ritvik initiation being nonvedic is useless. Arent therere already many pseudovedic groups?

> Must we repeat this over and over? I dont have time to waste. He established a rtvik system. I dont know where in sastra it says he could do that, nor have I seen anywhere it says that it could not continue. When asked about tirobhava initiations he said rtvik.

We definitely must. Its very serious issue which cant be resolved positively in your favor without g-s-s support for ritvikism.

> If you think Srila Prabhupada made a mistake with that, I guess you trust yourself more than him. So much for the guru parampara.

I think (am convinced) its your misintepretation of his. Very inauspicious. But you dont care, I know.

SP said that none of his Godbrothers were qualified to be Acarya so why was Post Samadhi Ritvic system not established by BSST or previous Acaryas. Indians can be just as unqualified as westerners sometimes. Isnt it?

Apparently there may be many angles of vision for everything. I heard that we should respect everyones position even if we dont agree,not that we try and negate the other just because it is disagreeable to us.
BSST explains that WE ARE NOT THE KNOWER! We r just tiny little jivas!

The extremes at both end of spectrum could balance each other out maybe. Not that we try to go to war with either the liberal modernists or the conservative traditionalists.

Like two corners of triangle,only way to harmonise is by rising above to see things from higher perspective that is inclusive of all angles of vision. Something like that I heard. "it is never between us and them but always between God and I!"

We have seen the enemy and it is ourselves!

Ysvt.

[quote][cite] Nrsingha:[/cite]SP said that none of his Godbrothers were qualified to be Acarya so why was Post Samadhi Ritvic system not established by BSST or previous Acaryas. Indians can be just as unqualified as westerners sometimes. Isnt it?[/quote] Prabhupada along with his senior godbrothers voted for an acharya after the disappearance of BSST. And Ananta vasudeva was an acharya. However it became clear that devotees should have established GBC for management and not an acharya. Prabhupada since then was mainly concerned with management, not with guruship. It is obvious. Those who make guruship the center are soooo far from what Prabhupada considered the priority.

This discussion is becoming pointless. I have no intention of surrendering to someone whom I do not trust, which I am being pressured to do against my better judgment. I tried a rubber-stamped guru on the advice of others, and it was a mistake. Or perhaps not a mistake because I learned something, which is not to trust just anyone with my spiritual life. My faith is in Srila Prabhupada, and sooner or later I will be initiated by him, whether this life or another. Ive found convincing evidence that he intended to continue accepting disciples like me, and in my heart he is my guru even though I am not a very good disciple. I cannot imagine that he would abandon me. I find it terribly shameful that anyone would try to come between me and the guru in my heart for whatever reason, and Im fed up with hearing this abusive "apasampradaya" bluff. ISKCON or no ISKCON, Ill take what Srila Prabhupada said, thank you very much.[br][br]

Satsvarupa: By the votes of the present GBC. Then our next question concerns initiations in the future, particularly at that time when youre no longer with us. We want to know how first and second initiation would be conducted.[br]
Prabhupada: Yes. I shall recommend some of you. After this is settled up, I shall recommend some of you to act as officiating acaryas.[br]
Tamala Krsna: Is that called rtvik-acarya?[br]
Prabhupada: Rtvik, yes.[br]

> why was Post Samadhi Ritvic system not established by BSST or previous Acaryas.

Because the absence of physically present guru goes against sastra. Not just against parampara system but also against the system of accepting guru in HBV (like one year of mutual observing), etc.

After tirobhava of BSST was post tirobhava ritvik system considered for about five minutes. Then it was noted that its allowed nowhere in sastra and that was the end of it. (approximate cz>en translation, Ritvik mayavada sata dusani, intro-6)

> The extremes at both end of spectrum could balance each other out maybe. Not that we try to go to war with either the liberal modernists or the conservative traditionalists.

Seems like you dont understand that theres no middle ground here: either the guru parampara continues or not.
If not, were not anymore Vedic, with all ramifications it entails (beginning with no authority in India as a genuine group, thus completely undermining our preaching; sastra would become unimportant - if one principle can be changed why not others?, etc.). Iow, Pandoras box would be opened.

> This discussion is becoming pointless.

Sure, when one has no support for ones position...

> I have no intention of surrendering to someone whom I do not trust, which I am being pressured to do against my better judgment.

Neither this is allowed by g-s-s. The procedure is clearly established in HBV. So your main reason for accepting ritvikism is out.

> I tried a rubber-stamped guru on the advice of others, and it was a mistake. Or perhaps not a mistake because I learned something, which is not to trust just anyone with my spiritual life.

Trusting anyone is another nonsense idea, unsupported by g-s-s.

> My faith is in Srila Prabhupada, and sooner or later I will be initiated by him, whether this life or another.

In another life, in traditional way, its ok.

> Ive found convincing evidence that he intended to continue accepting disciples like me, and in my heart he is my guru even though I am not a very good disciple.

Everyone of us is his disciple, siksa, that is. Hes in our heart without a need to accept nonvedic ideas.

> I find it terribly shameful that anyone would try to come between me and the guru in my heart for whatever reason

Then you should wait for diksa for the next life. But dont stop others by preaching ritvikism to accept "disciple of my disciple".

> and Im fed up with hearing this abusive "apasampradaya" bluff.

Bluff which no ritvik can refute, establishing ones idea as sastric. We judge everything by g-s-s so why not ritvikism? By which reason should g-s-s become suspended in this case? Because of utility, or sentiment?

> ISKCON or no ISKCON, Ill take what Srila Prabhupada said, thank you very much.

No, you selectively avoid his words like "a regular guru", "disciple of my disciple" and "theyre his grand disciples".
This proves hes not establishing apasampradaya but follows sastra:

According to 'c7r'e9 Caitanya Mah'e4prabhu, this is the way an incarnation should be accepted. 'c7r'e9la Narottama d'e4sa 'd6h'e4kura says, s'e4dhu-'e7'e4stra-guru-v'e4kya, cittete kariy'e4 aikya. One should accept a thing as genuine by studying the words of saintly people, the spiritual master and the 'e7'e4stra. >>>The actual center is the 'e7'e4stra, the revealed scripture. If a spiritual master does not speak according to the revealed scripture, he is not to be accepted. Similarly, if a saintly person does not speak according to the 'e7'e4stra, he is not a saintly person.<<< The 'e7'e4stra is the center for all. Unfortunately, at the present moment, people do not refer to the 'e7'e4stras; therefore they accept rascals as incarnations, and consequently they have made incarnations into a very cheap thing. (CC 2.20.352, p.)

[quote][cite] VEDA:[/cite]> This discussion is becoming pointless. [br][br]

Sure, when one has no support for ones position...[/quote]
When youre obviously not listening.

[br][br][quote]...One should accept a thing as genuine by studying the words of saintly people, the spiritual master and the 'e7'e4stra. >>>The actual center is the 'e7'e4stra, the revealed scripture. If a spiritual master does not speak according to the revealed scripture, he is not to be accepted. Similarly, if a saintly person does not speak according to the 'e7'e4stra, he is not a saintly person.[/quote]

Does a "saintly" person know when to stfu? Because you sure dont.

[br][br][br]
[quote][cite]Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura:[/cite]...What are the Scriptures? They are nothing but the record by the pure devotees of the Divine Message appearing on the lips of the pure devotees. The Message conveyed by the devotees is the same in all ages. The words of the devotees are ever identical with the Scriptures. Any meaning of the Scriptures that belittles the function of the devotee who is the original communicant of the Divine Message contradicts its own claim to be heard. [/quote]
When Srila Prabhupada says "Rtvik. Yes.", its good enough for me.

>I have no intention of surrendering to someone whom I do not trust, which I am being pressured to do against my better judgment. I tried a rubber-stamped guru on the advice of others, and it was a mistake.

H.H.Bhaktimarga swami may not be on the same level as Srila Prabhupada but he is renounced and dedicated to mission of Srila Prabhupada and hence a great Vaishnava though he might have made a mistake or two when he lied to you. Just imagine if he happens to read what you write here, how much it may hurt him or to his other disciples who are in good relationship with him.So how this relationship in which there is no faith, no surrender involved will benefit you, rather it is going into the direction of aparadhas.

imho, it will be better for you to get out of this relationship. In ISKCON, I have seen disciples returning the beads to their guru. But then they leave ISKCON completely, I dont know if they did it voluntarily(leaving ISKCON) or they were kicked out. I know few devotees who took initiation without full understanding, then there were many problems later on. I dont know if there are any rules in place for such situations in ISKCON. Better will be to consult some senior devotees, maybe some GBC whom you trust, or maybe just talk frankly to H.H.Bhaktimarga Swami, honestly and humbly openup your heart with him, tell him everything what you feel. If you really really dont like this relationship, there might be some official way in ISKCON to dissolve this relationship.

If you wait too long, and it continues like this 1)it will create more aparadhas 2) it will end up in a very ugly way taking you away from ISKCON forever. If it is possible maybe then just stay as an uninitiated devotee in ISKCON keeping Prabhupada in your heart and in your vision.

duc0u299 ksu803 u257 -purau347 caryu257 -vidhi apeksu803 u257 nu257 kare
jihvu257 -sparu347 e u257 -canu803 du803 u257 la sabu257 re uddhu257 re

One does not have to undergo initiation or execute the activities required before initiation. One simply has to vibrate the holy name with his lips. Thus even a man in the lowest class [canu803 du803 u257 la] can be delivered.

Vaisnava aparadha must be avoided at any cost.

Your servant
dweller-in-peace

> When youre obviously not listening.

Im but keep waiting for pramana supporting your case. In vain.

> Does a "saintly" person know when to stfu? Because you sure dont.

I have no problem to accept Im no saintly person. But you said just above "Ill take what Srila Prabhupada said" and now youre irritated by his words. Isnt it strange?
(You can offend me as you like, Im used to it from web forums. But as per debate customs you lost.)

> Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura:...What are the Scriptures? They are nothing but the record by the pure devotees of the Divine Message appearing on the lips of the pure devotees. The Message conveyed by the devotees is the same in all ages. The words of the devotees are ever identical with the Scriptures. Any meaning of the Scriptures that belittles the function of the devotee who is the original communicant of the Divine Message contradicts its own claim to be heard.

Theres no contradiction. Contradictions are only imagined and ascribed to pure devotees to suit someones agenda. Evidence? Words like "a regular guru", "disciple of my disciple" and "theyre his grand disciples".

> When Srila Prabhupada says "Rtvik. Yes.", its good enough for me.

SP answers here the question of Tamala Krsna: "Is that called rtvik-acarya?"

position of officiating acarya: pre samadhi acceptable (though not ideal), post samadhi not

Caitanya Caritamrta Madhya Lila 15.108

Sorry Veda,I was not referring directly to ritvic debate but more to SP minimize/maximise dichotomy!

duc0u299 ku7779 u257 -purau347 caryu257 -vidhi apeku7779 u257 nu257 kare
jihvu257 -sparu347 e u257 -cau7751 u7693 u257 la sabu257 re uddhu257 re

One does not have to undergo initiation or execute the activities required before initiation. One simply has to vibrate the holy name with his lips. Thus even a man in the lowest class [cau7751 u7693 u257 la] can be delivered.

DWELLER-IN-PEACE prabhu,u have reference for above quote?

Thanks.

Ysvt.

duc0u299 ku7779 u257 -purau347 caryu257 -vidhi apeku7779 u257 nu257 kare
jihvu257 -sparu347 e u257 -cau7751 u7693 u257 la sabu257 re uddhu257 re
anuu7779 au7749 ga-phale kare sau7745 su257 rera ku7779 aya
citta u257 karu7779 iyu257 karu257 ya ku7771 u7779 u7751 e premodaya

'93One does not have to undergo initiation or execute the activities required before initiation. One simply has to vibrate the holy name with his lips. Thus even a man in the lowest class [cau7751 u7693 u257 la] can be delivered.
'93By chanting the holy name of the Lord, one dissolves his entanglement in material activities. After this, one becomes very much attracted to Ku7771 u7779 u7751 a, and thus dormant love for Ku7771 u7779 u7751 a is awakened.

(Chaitanya Charitu257 mu7771 ta Madhya15.106-109)

other translation:

duc0u299 ku7779 u257 purau347 caryu257 vidhi apeku7779 u257 nu257 kare
jihvu257 sparu347 e u257 cau7751 u7693 u257 le sabu257 re uddhu257 re

'93All perfections come from the Holy Name. It does not require initiation or the observance of purau347 carau7751 a. As soon as it touches the tongue of even the lowest class of humankind, it immediately delivers them.'94

What is essential though is sincerity .....as srila Prabhupada was apt to mention the rain can fall on barren land ...a dessert or it can land on fertile soil.Immediately there is reaction when sincerity is present...the holy name is cherished by the sadaka,the new devotee.He then attempts to find genuine vaisnavas to associate within a sampradaya.Submission is naturally a consequence as he feels himself indebted to those superior devotees within the sampradaya.He is not initiated....hence he understands he is actually a fool.....who has failed to free himself....cannot free himself without the help of older more experienced devotees....his siksa gurus.Without submission,sincerity and service ....initiation infact means nothing.....As you have proved to all of us Bhakta Paul Howard.......So now we are attempting to help but you are not actually submissive with us ....as you were not with that great Soul ..Who blessed you.With such persons a guru must attempt to cheat them back to god -head because they are too crooked and just want to be cheated....As srila Prabhupada said ....The cheaters and the cheated is all there is within the material world.As his guru said the realm of exploitation

So how is srila Prabhupada meant to personally accept me then?I have been his devotee for approximately thirty years....however unless i read Hauri-sauris book my personal association is merely a dream.
I cannot accept that i can have a better relationship with him than my superiors because i in fact never personally met him.
When they infact spent many wonderful days massaging him,cooking for him,being chastised by him,appreciated by him.....personally showing their love and receiving his in return....while i cannot because he has not personally accepted me. .He did not accept everyone who came for initiation,infact he refused many devotees .....because they were deemed unsuitable.

Why do these mayavadi ritviks want to turn his personal blessings into a christian like facsimilie.I was blessed by my gurus who were infact my siksa gurus....they were accepted as his disciples by him.
Personally...he looked at them in the eyes,he smiled at them ,he chastised them..and they his direct disciples accepted him personally out of love......In this life i came too late.How do the ritviks hope to possibly cheat us and their few sad followers out of experiencing the real thing?Such cheaters saying he will accept them...everyone....all these cheaters....how pathetic...they even hope to steal their gurus free will and individual right to say no!...CONCOCTION AFTER CONCOCTION

[quote][cite] sri_govinda_das:[/cite]So how is srila Prabhupada meant to personally accept me then?I have been his devotee for approximately thirty years....however unless i read Hauri-sauris book my personal association is merely a dream.
I cannot accept that i can have a better relationship with him than my superiors because i in fact never personally met him.[/quote] Well that is not quite true. I am not a supporter of post samadhi ritik initiationd, and I am firm believer that it is a disservice to Prabhupada to stop the parampara in his ISKCON, but you CAN have a very intimate and personal relationship with Prabhupada over the years and be even more connected to him then when you had a direct contact. In a way service in separation is more direct then service in direct interaction. It is this longing that makes one a direct disciple, not initiation, that is a formality. Visvanatha Cakravarti is a direct disciple of Narottama das Thakura Mahasaya, but there are a few generations of gurus (diksa) between them. In the same way, relationship with Lord Caitanya for Narottama dasa was personal and intimate, but of course we relish all the things that link us up to Prabhupada, and that includes any and every possible biographical work or a memories of Prabhupada, and that includes our gurus in ISKCON. The only thing that stops us from having a direct relationship through parampara with Prabhupada is envy.

[quote][cite] Pandu das:[/cite] I have no intention of surrendering to someone whom I do not trust, which I am being pressured to do against my better judgment. I tried a rubber-stamped guru on the advice of others, and it was a mistake. Or perhaps not a mistake because I learned something, which is not to trust just anyone with my spiritual life. My faith is in Srila Prabhupada, and sooner or later I will be initiated by him, whether this life or another. [/quote]

You definitely should not surrender to someone you do not trust. That is not faith, that is insanity. While we learn from our mistakes we should not be repeating them. ----------
There is nothing wrong in seeing Prabhupada as the only guru you need. What is wrong is saying that everybody else should do the same. Diffrent things work for different people. I know scores of very nice devotees greatly inspired by Iskcon gurus and very happy in their spiritual life.

Obviously ccd you can have a reciprocal relationship ....but i will never be his direct disciple....that is the piont in this circumstance ....why do hope to add your speculative mentality,like you did with that Prabhupada initiation.....Nrsingha Prabhu commented...wild speculation you intent on finding fault if you are unable to perceive the proper truth or siddanta ,....i am not the personal disciple am i? That is the relevant piont ,they are unable to accept Prabhupadas one plus one instructions.....and you give them knowledge which is for those with a madyama understanding.

Is Visvanatha direct disciple of Narottama? Is he a diksa disciple, no.

Reciprocation is the key, direct can also mean "servant of my servant" - it is spiritually direct.

I am not the disciple of srila Prabhupada ccd....that was indeed the preaching siddhanta Prabhu....i am not visvanatha takura nor is bhakta Paul Howard....Pandu das.We are talking to a devotee who struggles to accept the basic understandings.

[quote][cite] sri_govinda_das:[/cite]I am not the disciple of srila Prabhupada ccd....[/quote] You better be his siksa disciple, or you are out of Iskcon... that is pretty basic. But whatever problem Pandu has, it is his problem, and I am sure he will resolve it somehow, but what we ask is to not commit vaisnava aparadhas both ways.

Please accept my humble obeisances ccd.Please accept my humble obeisances....Bhakta Paul Howard. Hare Krishna....

[quote][cite] VEDA:[/cite] But as per debate customs you lost.
[/quote]

If youre that desperate as to think youve won anything by claiming Srila Prabhupada made a mistake rather than yourself, and pushing an aspiring devotee further from ISKCON, then I hope your false ego is satisfied.

Actually my dear Pandu das...the proper etiquette is to accept it as a blessing ....it smashed your false ego.Not your real identity as an eternal servant of Krishna....Hence an older devotee has indeed blessed me because now if i am indeed humble and sincere i will beg for his blessings....When and if he accepts my humble obeisances... i will actually please our guru with our genuine submission and humility..So in that mood Please accept my humble obeisances Bhakta Paul Howard,Vancha kalpa ...vaisnava.From your friend in the service of srila Prabhupada .... sri govinda Prabhu.

When my temple commander vrisha das used to get on my case he was indeed very brutal.He used to attack our neophyte misconceptions,like a sargent major of the marines.Many times i would literally crawl away to hide.He was in my opinion a proper ars*** However i had my temple president Jayadharma Prabhu to play the good cop senario.Gradually they ripped from me my disgusting material anarthas.All my conditioning was such a burden i felt that they really hated me.....very intense pressure was excerted upon me to change personally in every possible way.In fact i wanted to leave many times......However i stayed because srila Prabhupada convinced me by his transcendental nature when i saw him on the dvds.... just as you have accepted him in your heart Prabhu.But this is the real path of devotional service.It is indeed a heavy path to follow sincerely.

> If youre that desperate as to think youve won anything

Not at all. Ive tried to help you for quite some time but you cant accept it. Its like with that horse at the river bank.

> by claiming Srila Prabhupada made a mistake rather than yourself

He didnt since he used words like "a regular guru", "disciple of my disciple" and "theyre his grand disciples". Which you cant accept
although you said "Ill take what Srila Prabhupada said".

> pushing an aspiring devotee further from ISKCON,

Its you who reject standard siddhanta and distancing yourself from ISKCON. However, in your condition you cant see this.

> then I hope your false ego is satisfied.

Thisd be an useless effort, imho. Better to satisfy guru parampara, vaisnavas and Krsna.

Actually Bhakta Paul howard Prabhu,Veda prabhu has genuinely tried to help you.But we are conditioned to this world of expliotation.Being the adhoc enjoyer and krishnas competitor we are unable to see things in their proper perspective.Until we are sincerely intent on destroying our false ego....by chanting especially early in the morning before Sun rise we will generally be the victims of the material energy.My original ego is present,that i am the eternal servant of kRISHNA.First class intelligence is he is indeed my superior.....my guru informed me that i am a fool and cannot understand the sastra.Hence i need to especially chant and serve the senior devotees.To receive there blessings....Following in the footsteps of sri chaitanya Mahaprabhu.